In this episode of Not to Forgive, but to Understand, we speak with Bruce Robbins—Columbia University professor and author of Atrocity: A Literary History. Drawing on his recent book, we explore how literature grapples with the representation of mass violence, and examine his work through the lens of genocide studies.

We explore questions about prolepsis and historical inevitability, the role of ethnocentrism in genocide narratives, and the shifting nature of violence through thinkers like Nietzsche, Foucault, and Pinker. Robbins also reflects on the personal and institutional consequences of his public teaching, including his support for student activism.

The episode features audience questions from Chigbo Arthur Anyaduba, Associate Professor at the University of Winnipeg.

00:00:00 – Opening

00:01:42 – How the Term “Genocide” Became Common

00:06:55 – Literature Review on Atrocity and Violence

00:13:57 – Avoiding Simplified Good vs. Evil Narratives

00:18:29 – Writing About Atrocity Without Exaggeration

00:19:42 – Ethnocentrism’s Role in Atrocity

00:26:03 – Nietzsche, Sadism, and Humanization in Violence

00:27:09 – Plunder in War: Historical and Modern Examples

00:36:47 – Marx and Foucault on Changing Forms of Violence

00:38:05 – Why “Violence” Is Often Missing in Genocide Studies

00:41:01 – Are Modern Societies Less Violent?

00:43:27 – How Publishing Influences Atrocity Narratives

00:48:46 – Audience Q1: Does Foreshadowing Misrepresent Violence?

00:50:32 – Audience Q2: Addressing Eurocentrism in the Book

00:52:51 – Gaza Encampment, Teaching Risk, and Institutional Pushback

Description

In this episode, we speak with Ava Homa—award-winning author of Daughters of Smoke and Fire and Echoes from the Other Land—about Kurdish identity, structural violence, and the cycles of oppression in Iran. Homa discusses the intersection of literature and activism, the emotional and political risks of storytelling, and the global forces that shape—and often distort—struggles for justice. With questions from hosts and a special contribution by Kurdish poet Sarwa Azeez, the conversation moves from personal to geopolitical, examining how resistance, complicity, and survival co-exist in authoritarian contexts.

Chapter Timestamps & Titles

00:00 - Opening and Introduction  

01:49 - The Emotional Core of "Daughters of Smoke and Fire*" 

03:09 - Moral Ambiguity and Structural Violence  

05:44 - Beauty as Power, Punishment, and Survival  

09:28 - Fiction, Nonfiction, and Political Mythologies  

11:42 - Regime Repetition and Global Complicity  

15:43 - Kurdish Abandonment and Western Hypocrisy  

19:05 - Civil Society and the Future of Iran  

22:10 - Nationalism, Trauma, and Regime Control  

24:33 - Western Narratives of Unity After Violence  

28:32 - Personal Risk in Telling the Story  

30:24 - Responding to War from Within the Oppressed  

33:40 - On Calls for Regime Change  

35:59 - Advice to U.S. Minority Communities  

38:46 - Kurdish Identity and the Broader Iranian Struggle  

In this episode, we speak with Roni Mikel Arieli, a cultural historian and Teaching and Research Fellow at the Rabb Center for Holocaust Studies, Ben Gurion University of the Negev. Mikel Arieli specializes in modern Jewish history, African studies, Holocaust and genocide studies, and memory studies. We dive into her work on Jewish detainees exiled to Mauritius during World War II—a story of colonial entanglement, survival, and remembrance.

Her book Remembering the Holocaust in a Racial State: Holocaust Memory in South Africa from Apartheid to Democracy (1948–1994) (De Gruyter, 2022) expands on themes of memory and power. You can read her recent articles on deportation, digital Holocaust memory, and anti-fascism in South Africa, down below!

📖 Selected works:

“The Jewish Question in the British Colonial Imagination” – Jewish Social Studies (2023): https://muse.jhu.edu/article/873285

“What We Talk About When We Talk About Digital Holocaust Memory” – The Communication Review (2023): https://doi.org/10.1080/10714421.2023.2177489

“The Great Trek Towards Nazism” – South African Historical Journal (2022): https://doi.org/10.1080/02582473.2021.2009014

Book: Remembering the Holocaust in a Racial State (2022): https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110715545

VIDEO TIMESTAMPS:

00:00:00 | Intro – Interview with Dr. Roni Mikel Arieli

00:01:51 | Why were 1,581 Jewish detainees sent to Mauritius in 1940?

00:31:48 | How did detainees respond to Shertok calling Beau Bassin a “British Dachau”?

00:41:23 | What sources and testimonies informed your research?

00:48:05 | How did Genevieve Pitot’s and Nathacha Appanah’s works relate to yours?

00:57:33 | How have family, friends, and scholars responded to your research?

01:06:34 | Were there any surprising moments during your research?

🎙️ In this episode, we sit down with Zachariah Mampilly—Marxe Endowed Chair of International Affairs at CUNY and co-founder of the Program on African Social Research—to unpack the deep historical and geopolitical roots of the ongoing conflict in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

We explore how the 1994 Rwandan genocide and subsequent regional wars laid the foundation for instability in the DRC, the rise and resurgence of the M23 rebel group, and the roles of Rwanda and Uganda in the region. Mampilly also reflects on the failures of international peacekeeping, the power of Congolese civil society movements like LUCHA, and what the future may hold for governance and security in the Great Lakes region.

🕒 Chapters included in the video
📌 Scroll down for chapter markers to navigate key topics and questions.

00:00 – Opening
01:29 – Guest Introduction: Dr. Zachariah Mampilly
01:54 – How the Rwandan Genocide Set the Stage for DRC Conflict
03:39 – The First Congo War and the Rise of M23
05:21 – M23’s Origins, Evolution, and Ethnonationalism
09:53 – M23: Rwandan Proxy or Independent Actor?
13:20 – Comparing M23’s Current Resurgence to 2012–2013
18:24 – Rethinking UN Peacekeeping in the DRC
22:12 – Civil Society Responses: The Rise and Role of LUCHA
28:01 – Uganda’s Overlooked Role in the Conflict
33:38 – Resource Trafficking and Economic Interests
37:08 – What Lies Ahead for the DRC?
40:34 – Civil Society’s Role in Regional Peace
43:57 – Under-Discussed Issues in the DRC Conflict

📢 Subscribe to stay updated on upcoming interviews on politics and memory in global conflict zones.

In this episode, we are joined by Yair Wallach, Chair of the Centre for Jewish Studies at SOAS, University of London, to discuss the January 2025 ceasefire agreement between Israel and Gaza officials.

The conversation examines the immediate and ongoing impacts of the ceasefire, including humanitarian aid access, the temporary pause in hostilities, and the challenges of maintaining peace amid Israeli military operations in Jenin. Yair Wallach also explores the political dynamics shaping the ceasefire’s future, as well as the broader implications for the region.

This episode provides critical insight into one of the most pressing developments in the Middle East today.

Let us know your thoughts in the comments, and don’t forget to subscribe for future episodes.

#MiddleEast #GazaCeasefire #Israel #Palestine #Politics #CurrentEvents #genocideingaza

00:00 - Opening
01:18 - Introduction
02:01 - War Goals: Were They Achieved by Hamas and Israel?
07:51 - Who Won the War: A Genuine Victory or a Pyrrhic One?
10:49 - Operation Iron Wall: Ongoing Conflict in Jenin Despite Ceasefire
15:59 - The May 2024 Agreement: Why Did It Fail, and What Changed?
17:56 - The Ceasefire: A Hiatus or a Genuine Step Forward?
26:44 - Palestinian Islamic Jihad: Role and Goals Compared to Hamas
27:47 - Hamas as a Political and Military Entity: Prospects for Long-Term Peace
30:38 - The Olmert-Kidwa Peace Plan: A Feasible Blueprint for Peace?
36:44 - Steve Witkoff’s Inspection Team: Diplomacy or Political Provocation?
39:52 - US Diplomacy and Power in Israel
44:43 - Sanctions Lifted: Impact of Trump’s Decision on Violence
51:07 - How Will History Remember the Gaza Conflict?
54:56 - Genocide vs. Ethnic Cleansing
59:29 - Ethos and Credibility: Who Should Write About the Middle East?

In this interview, historian and sociologist Uğur Ümit Üngör discusses the controversy and complication over the use of the “g-word” (genocide), as well as the damage done to humanity because some genocides are deemed “more equal” than others. Drawing on his expertise in genocide and mass atrocity in the Middle East, he discusses how these issues intersect with the ongoing conflicts in Israel and Palestine. 

Chapter Timestamps
00:00 - Opening
01:17 - Introduction
01:40 - Challenges of the Term "Genocide"
10:01 - Debates Over the Usage and Implications of "Genocide"
17:01 - Academic Perspectives: Are Scholars Addressing Genocide Effectively?
20:29 - "Screaming, Silence, and Mass Violence in Israel/Palestine"
23:56 - Conflict Hotspots in and around the Middle East
29:36 - How Genocide is Viewed on the Global Stage
36:34 - Insights from The Antelope’s Strategy by Jean Hatzfeld
38:21 - Taking Action: Concrete Steps to Prevent Genocide
43:07 - Social Media’s Role in Activism and Genocide Prevention
47:41 - Why People Prefer to use "Genocide" Over “War Crimes” or “Crimes Against Humanity”
51:26 - Exploring the Roots of Violence and Conflict
54:29 - "Genocide Studies Sound Meant to Be Politically Expedient or Emotionally Safe"

Join us for an insightful conversation with Arie M. Dubnov, Jewish-Israeli historian and associate professor at George Washington University. Dubnov discusses the complexities of genocide studies, the role of oral histories in the Holocaust, and its influence on understanding genocide. He also touches on academic freedom, populist media challenges, and his work "Agnotology in Palestine/Israel".

Join us for an insightful conversation with Omar Yousef Shehabi, an acting assistant professor at NYU School of Law and a JSD candidate at Yale Law School. With a wealth of experience working as a legal officer for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) and other international organizations, Omar provides a unique perspective on the complexities and challenges faced by Palestinian refugees.

Join us for an enriching conversation with Zukiswa Wanner, acclaimed writer and activist, as she shares insights from Johannesburg, South Africa. In this interview, Zukiswa reflects on her literary achievements, activism, and firsthand experiences in Palestine. Tune in for an inspiring conversation!

Join us in conversation with Alex Hinton, Director of the Center for the Study of Genocide and Human Rights, Distinguished Professor of Anthropology, and UNESCO Chair in Genocide Prevention at Rutgers University. In this interview, we delve into the role of The Engaged Scholar and the pedagogical merits of Genocide Studies. Tune in for valuable insights into these critical issues.