There are genocides that are neglected and underreported, and Sudan is often sidelined while other conflicts dominate global attention. In this episode, we speak with Christopher Tounsel, historian of modern Sudan and author of “Bounds of Blackness: African Americans, Sudan, and the Politics of Solidarity”. We examine how African Americans have engaged with Sudan across the twentieth and twenty-first centuries, focusing on race, religion, media, and foreign policy, and how these have shaped responses to conflict in Sudan and South Sudan. The conversation also addresses current dynamics, including the war in Sudan, the role of external actors, and how solidarity is formed, limited, and applied across different contexts of violence. Find Tounsel's book, "Bounds of Blackness African Americans, Sudan, and the Politics of Solidarity" below:
https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501775628/bounds-of-blackness/

00:00 — Introduction and Overview

02:22 — Obama, Darfur, and the Limits of Global Solidarity

05:23 — What Would a “Black” Foreign Policy Look Like?

08:29 — South Sudan and the Meaning of Independence

11:42 — Misconceptions About African Politics and Lived Frustrations

16:09 — Black Solidarity, Zionism, and Divided Alignments

21:36 — Identity, Race, and the Boundaries of Solidarity

25:54 — Black Lives Matter and the Contradictions of Solidarity

30:40 — Spivak, Othering, and Who Gets to Speak

36:54 — Black Media and the Mobilization of Sudan

42:22 — Media Figures, BLM, and Shaping Conflict Narratives

46:59 — Media Framing and the Inequality of Attention

53:25 — Why Some Genocides Receive More Attention Than Others

01:03:17 — Media, Academia, and the Political Economy of Genocide Attention

01:11:05 — Social Media, Power, and U.S.–UAE Influence in Sudan

01:11:05 — Book Recommendations

Despite the announcement of a ceasefire, conditions in Gaza remain unstable and violence continues to affect civilian life and medical care. Saira Hussain discusses her most recent medical mission to Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis, Gaza. Drawing on her experience working in a severely constrained healthcare system, she reflects on the conditions inside the hospital, the practical limits of medical care under blockade, and the ethical decisions clinicians face when equipment, medication, and evacuation options are restricted.

The conversation also addresses the psychological strain experienced by humanitarian medical teams, the challenges of speaking publicly about what they witness, and the broader questions this raises for humanitarian institutions, medical ethics, and international accountability.

Courtesy footage provided by Saira Hussain.

Watch our previous interview with Saira here: https://youtu.be/Qd0nS28iG3M

00:00:00 Introduction

00:05:21 Third Mission to Gaza: What Changed

00:10:07 How Repeated Missions Shape a Doctor

00:13:53 What Gazans Say vs Outside Narratives

00:16:48 Shared Grief Among Medical Teams

00:19:12 Patients vs Doctors: Emotional Differences

00:23:02 Short-Term vs Long-Term Medical Staff

00:24:26 Why It’s Impossible to Disconnect

00:25:27 Humanitarian Heroism

00:32:31 Medical Evacuations from Gaza

00:32:50 Hidden Trauma Among Medical Workers

00:36:02 Collective Anger Inside the Hospital

00:37:37 Neutrality and Ethics in War Medicine

00:42:07 Anger as a Catalyst for Advocacy

00:44:12 Survivor’s Guilt After Returning Home

00:46:44 A Shared Language of Humanitarian Grief

00:48:59 Risks of Speaking Out About Gaza

00:52:08 The Burden of Witnessing Trauma

00:54:55 Rethinking Humanitarian Institutions

00:58:51 Health of Doctors Working in Gaza

01:00:44 Returning to Gaza: Future Goals

We spoke with Catherine Filloux, an award-winning French Algerian American playwright and librettist whose work has engaged human rights, war, and mass atrocity for more than three decades. Her plays and operas have been produced internationally, including in New York, Bosnia, and Cambodia, and she has written extensively about genocide, post-conflict memory, and the moral responsibilities of law and witness.

In this conversation, we focus on her play Lemkin’s House, a surreal and deeply human exploration of Raphael Lemkin in the afterlife. We discuss the invention and political life of the word genocide, the tension between law and realpolitik, the burden of “never again,” and how theater can illuminate memory, survivor’s guilt, and moral responsibility without reducing them to simple messages.

Catherine reflects on staging genocide for a broad public, on the role of women in conflict narratives, and on how art can function not as instruction, but as a prism through which audiences confront complexity for themselves.

00:00 — Opening and Introduction

02:22 — Catherine Filloux’s Background and What Drew Her to Writing About Genocide

07:15 — How Do You Portray Lemkin’s Complexity for a Broad Public Audience?

17:31 — How Does the Play Expose the Legal and Political Controversies Surrounding the Word “Genocide”?

23:36 — How Does Lemkin’s House Weave Law, “Never Again,” and the Tension Between Memory and Forgetting?

29:21 — Is Lemkin a Hero or a Political Instrument? Humanizing Law, Power, and Realpolitik

36:40 — Why Include Dark Humor, Like the Termites Scene, in a Play About Genocide?

39:28 — When Suffering Competes: What Does the Play Suggest About Comparative Victimhood?

42:21 — How Do You End a Play Set in the Afterlife of Raphael Lemkin?

In this episode, we speak with Omer Bartov about academic silence, Gaza, and the costs of speaking publicly about ongoing mass violence. Bartov reflects on the pressures shaping scholarly speech in the United States, the uneven application of legal and moral frameworks, and what the world’s response to Gaza reveals about whose lives are recognized and protected. He also addresses the personal and professional consequences of speaking out, the limits of academic caution, and the need for structural reform within the academy. These themes are explored further in his forthcoming book, Israel: What Went Wrong?, with link to purchase included in the description below:

https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/477841/israel-what-went-wrong-by-bartov-omer/9781911717690

0:00 Introduction and Biography

01:58 Academic Silence on Gaza: Moral Stakes and Scholarly Responsibility

12:41 The Personal and Professional Costs of Speaking Out

18:06 Pressure, Self-Censorship, and Navigating Institutional Warnings

22:38 Silence, Intimidation, and Comparative Academic Climates Across Countries

28:36 Gatekeeping, Disciplinary Policing, and the Questioning of Scholarly Authority

33:09 Has the Academy Failed a Moral Test or Revealed Structural Limits?

39:41 Academic Freedom, Donor Dependency, and the Capitalist University Model

47:47 The Future of Holocaust and Genocide Studies in U.S. Higher Education

51:02 Past Silence, Present Clarity, and the Ethics of Scholarly Reckoning

56:35 Hierarchies of Grievability and the Limits of “Never Again”

58:48 Advice to Early-Career Academics Facing Ethical and Professional Risk

In this episode of Not to Forgive, but to Understand, we are joined by Daria Mattingly, a historian whose work focuses on perpetrator studies and the social and cultural history of the Soviet Union, with particular emphasis on Ukraine. The conversation centers on the Holodomor, examining how famine policies were enforced at the village level by rank-and-file actors and perpetrators rather than solely by state elites.

Drawing on archival research, memoirs, literature, and oral history, Daria discusses how ordinary people became involved in famine enforcement, the role of youth and women among perpetrators, the use of euphemistic language to obscure violence, and the moral pressures produced by hunger and scarcity. The episode also explores how these perpetrators have been remembered, silenced, or contested in cultural memory within Ukraine and across the diaspora, based on her dissertation “‘Idle, Drunk and Good-for-Nothing’: The Rank-and-File Perpetrators of the 1932–1933 Famine in Ukraine and Their Representation in Cultural Memory” and her forthcoming book Stalin’s Activists.

00:00 – Introduction & Guest Background

02:35 – Studying Rank-and-File Perpetrators of the Holodomor

08:45 – Famine Policies and Legal Enforcement

18:34 – Beyond Top Leaders: Grassroots Perpetration

26:10 – Youth, Cadres, and Rank-and-File Violence

30:11 – Euphemisms, Obedience, and Moral Justifications

35:10 – Women Perpetrators and Gendered Representation

40:47 – Empathy, Hunger, and Moral Collapse

46:05 – Literature, Memoir, and Cultural Evidence

49:41 – Memory, Diaspora, and Competing Narratives

In this episode of Not to Forgive, but to Understand, we are joined by Saira Hussain, an anesthetist who has worked in Gaza at Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis through humanitarian deployments with Medical Aid for Palestinians and IDEALS.

This conversation explores what it means to deliver critical care inside a collapsing health system. Drawing on firsthand experience, Saira discusses blockade conditions, mass-casualty medicine, famine and forced starvation, and the daily ethical and clinical decisions faced by medical professionals working under extreme constraint. The discussion also looks beyond the present moment, asking what rebuilding medical education, infrastructure, and professional capacity might entail in post-conflict settings.

This interview was recorded in September 2025, during a period of enforced starvation in Gaza. It remains acutely relevant today, as United Nations reporting indicates that over 400 Palestinians have been killed since the October ceasefire, underscoring the ongoing humanitarian and medical crisis.

00:00:00
Introduction

00:02:37
Collapse of Gaza’s Health System

00:07:01
Why a Doctor Goes to Gaza

00:19:36
Practicing Medicine Below Standards

00:26:00
Patient Testimony Under Siege

00:28:45
Mass Graves Near Medical Facilities

00:30:49
Blockade, Aid Restrictions, Hospital Failure

00:39:43
Patterns of War-Related Injuries

00:40:14
Famine and Enforced Starvation

00:44:04
What Global Reporting Misses

00:46:30
Rebuilding Gaza’s Medical Community

00:49:30
Personal Cost of Medical Witnessing

00:50:59
Medical Ethics After Atrocity

00:53:55
Unprecedented Weapons and Trauma

00:58:12
Aid Sites and Civilian Death

01:01:58
One Image for the World

In this episode, we speak with David Chandler, historian of Cambodia, biographer of Pol Pot, and leading researcher on the S-21 Prison under the Khmer Rouge, who provided expert testimony at the Extraordinary Chambers in the Courts of Cambodia in 2009 and 2012. He is joined by Peg LeVine, a medical anthropologist, psychologist, sculptor, and clinician whose work addresses mass killing and torture, and who served as an expert witness at the ECCC in 2016 following her book Love and Dread in Cambodia: Weddings, Births, and Ritual Harm under the Khmer Rouge; both scholars are affiliated with Monash University. Together, they examine the aftermath of genocide and crimes against humanity, the concept of “genocidal priming,” the limits and possibilities of prevention, and how atrocity is narrated from Cambodia to Gaza, Afghanistan, and beyond.

We extend our sincere thanks to Tibor Hegedis (videographer, photographer) and Maki LeVine (photographer, art therapist). Their generosity, care, and expertise were integral to the production of this conversation.

00:00:00 – Opening

00:01:50 – Setting the Context: Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge, and Historical Responsibility

00:08:43 – The Problem of Defining Genocide When Victims and Perpetrators Overlap

00:12:53 – Genocidal Priming: Identifying Early Warning Signs of Mass Violence

00:17:00 – Genocide Prevention in Protracted and Unfinished Conflicts

00:20:03 – Beyond Binary Narratives: Complexity, Complicity, and Moral Discomfort

00:26:06 – Researching Pol Pot Before the Internet and Modern Archives

00:28:47 – Conducting Ethnographic Research Under Post-Genocide Conditions

00:35:48 – Challenging Master Narratives and Methodological Assumptions

00:42:57 – The Emotional and Psychological Cost of Studying Genocide

00:48:29 – Ritualcide: What Happens When Social Rituals Are Destroyed

00:52:10 – Would You Choose This Work Again? Reflections on Scholarly Commitment

00:54:45 – What Genocide Studies Programs Still Fail to Address

00:59:44 – Framing, Retelling History, and the Limits of Narrative Models

01:03:15 – The Political Power and Misuse of the Word “Genocide”

01:08:54 – Can Scholars Study Genocide From Within a Violent Society?

01:13:40 – What Comes Next After Genocide Studies Acknowledges Its Limits?

In this episode, we speak with Amy Fagin, the author and project lead of Beyond Genocide; members of the Beyond Genocide Arts Award Advisory Council—Bjorn Krondorfer, Alexis Herr, and Sabah Carrim—as well as Linda Paganelli, the 2024–2025 award recipient. The conversation examines the Beyond Genocide arts award and exhibition, focusing on artistic responsibility, ethical representation, jury perspectives, and how art engages audiences with histories of mass violence beyond the exhibition space.

Find out more at: https://beyondgenocide.net/

Chapters

00:00 – Opening
00:01:57 – Questions the Works Should Raise
00:03:51 – Original Vision for the Competition
00:07:06 – Hopes for the Competition’s Future
00:09:28 – Art’s Contribution to Understanding Violence
00:11:03 – Where Artists Enter the Subject
00:13:30 – Observed Impact After One Year
00:15:43 – Value of Engaging Without Winning
00:17:21 – Effect of Historical Distance
00:19:18 – Artistic and Ethical Review Criteria
00:21:12 – Influence of International Perspectives
00:22:36 – Why Choose Beyond Genocide Framework
00:24:31 – Desired Audience Experience and Engagement
00:29:07 – Audience Engagement Beyond the Competition

In this episode, we’re joined by Alexandra Birch, violinist, historian, and author of Hitler’s Twilight of the Gods: Music and the Orchestration of War and Genocide in Europe.
Birch’s research examines how music and sound functioned as tools of power, identity, and violence under totalitarian regimes. Drawing on survivor testimony and archival materials, her work exposes how sound, whether through forced singing, orchestral performance, or ambient noise, became intertwined with the machinery of genocide.
In this conversation, we explore:
* The concept of musical sadism and its codification in the Nazi camp system
* The symbolic and functional use of music in shaping identity and “otherness”
* Wagnerian myth, cultural delusion, and the final days of the Third Reich
* The lingering echoes of sound violence in memory and trauma
* The redemptive potential of recovering silenced music and voices

To purchase "Hitler’s Twilight of the Gods: Music and the Orchestration of War and Genocide in Europe" follow the link below:
 https://utppublishing.com/doi/10.3138/9781487549206#:~:text=This%20book%20demonstrates%20the%20integral,formation%20in%20the%20Third%20Reich.

00:00 – Opening
01:41 – Introduction
02:09 – Kurt Franz and the Orchestration of Musical Sadism
07:01 – Musical Sadism or Sound Abatement
11:55 – Music, Otherness, and the Making of the Subaltern
17:31 – Valhalla Burns: Wagner and the Myth of the Nazi Endgame
22:04 – Listening Before Killing: The Psychology of Perpetrator Soundtracks
27:23 – Songs vs. Symphonies: Edward Westermann on Lyrics, Meaning, and Violence
32:22 – Singing the Reich: Music Education and Indoctrination
37:15 – Total Sound Violence: The Concept of Gesamtgewalttätigklang
42:20 – The Motif of Redemption: Remembering Silenced Voices
48:35 – AI and Holocaust Memory: Ethics, Education, and Reconstruction

In this conversation, Mehnaz Afridi—Professor of Religion and Philosophy and Director of the Holocaust, Genocide, and Interfaith Education Center at Manhattan University—discusses her groundbreaking work “Shoah Through Muslim Eyes”, the overlooked stories of Muslims in the Holocaust, the challenges of teaching about Zionism and antisemitism, and the urgent need for interfaith dialogue in today’s polarized world.
00:00:00 – Opening

00:01:32 – Introduction


00:02:10 – Why a Muslim Scholar Wrote on the Holocaust


00:05:45 – Reactions to Holocaust Testimonies at the Omaha Conference


00:10:50 – Forgotten Stories: Muslims Who Died in the Holocaust


00:16:46 – Gen Z, Zionism, and Making Sense of History


00:24:07 – Islam, Antisemitism in Egypt, and Shared Lessons


00:29:31 – Teaching the Shoah: Risks, Backlash, and Empathy


00:35:01 – Islamophobia After 9/11 and Efforts to Humanize Communities


00:36:48 – Practical Steps to Build Tolerance and Understanding