In mid 2023, Ofsted published a report into T levels: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/t-level-thematic-review-final-report
Here we hear from two college leaders, John Laramy, Principal, Exeter College and Diana Bird, Principal, Shipley College, about the challenges, opportunities and hopes for the future of the newest addition to the qualifications on offer for learners.
Hi I am Shreena Kotecha head of strategy at Ofsted. And joining us today we have Diana Bird from Shipley College and John Laramy Principal from Exeter college and we also have Ofsted's finest Richard Beynon and Paul Joyce, from further education and skills. So today, we're going to be talking about T levels. We're actually recording this podcast the day after the announcement by the Prime Minister about plans to change T levels and A levels. We're awaiting the developments with interest. But in the meantime, we're going to talk about T levels. Anyway, a question for our two guests - are our students enjoying T levels?
They very much are. So we get really good feedback from the students who take them. And they go on to some amazing progression opportunities. I would say that we certainly had really positive feedback from the students who have chosen them. I think that they aren't for every student. I think it is a demanding programme. It's a big programme. And I think in certain areas, finding the industrial placement is a real challenge. But students are really enjoying the T level, we're getting a lot out of it. And what we've been amazed by is how students have been able to progress straight from a T level into things like a degree apprenticeship.
Yeah, I'd agree with John, I think it's very much about making sure that you've recruited the right students onto the T level programmes. And for the students that are well suited to a T level, it is a fantastic experience. And we've seen similar things in terms of our students' progressions, so great experiences when they get into the right placements with employers who appreciate what those students are contributing to those organisations. And a number of our students have progressed to employment in those organisations where they've had their placements, which has been an amazing outcome for them. So for the right students, a fantastic programme.
Can I just ask, one of the things that we reported on in our thematic review of the rollout of T levels was that some knew, I think it was a small minority, but some T level students had difficulty getting their T level recognised as an entry qualification for higher education. Is that still a problem? Well, or has that been a problem for your students?
I'll be honest, in the area that we're working in, in West Yorkshire, we've not found that at all. So we even had one of our first cohort, secure a place at one of the Russell Group universities, so that was really positive outcome there, in terms of our local universities, which is where the majority of our students generally from the college tend to progress and we work really, really closely with them. So I think it's about the work that you do with your local universities or with the universities, to help them to understand the T level. And I think that's been one of our big challenges. As the as educators and as colleges, we've, we've become very familiar with the T levels. But I don't think that that's something that is, a generally shared piece of knowledge. And that's, that's going from schools to students to parents and and also into the university. So we've we've worked with them to help them to understand the curriculum to help them to see what students will be studying. And the universities have then been very happy to take our students but equally, they've amended their own curriculum in response to what's in the T level curriculum, because what we were finding with a lot of the curriculum in the T level was replacing what was in the first year of the degree. So they've had to amend their programmes. So we've we've certainly won them over. Because the amount of content and the challenge, the difficulty of the T level convinces universities that that those students have really demonstrated a high level of skill when they've achieved a good grade in a T level.
I think it's a great question, which I think my my experience is a little bit different to Diana, I think in terms of some universities are very open to T levels, where they understand that they've learned about them, I would say that it's not yet uniformly accepted right across the full suite of universities. And I think that's a piece of work for us collectively to do to help the T level brand grow, that help it be more recognised. So I think that there are opportunities for young people to progress to university from T levels but I think it's probably slightly narrower than we wish it to be. And there's probably a narrower choice.
Both of you sort of emphasised in your opening remarks that these are great for the right sort of student. Can you do a sort of pen picture of the sort of student you think really benefits from T levels?
So it's a young person who has a particular interest in a particular vocational discipline. If where they sort of know, that's where their passion lies, is relatively able. So I think one of the things that we need to be really open and honest about is that T levels are very rigorous and large programmes. The assessment mechanism is very, very challenging. And the content in some areas, I think, as Diana was saying, you're in some cases you're studying at year one of degree level content. So that does mean you need to work very hard to get the right student on the right course. And I think the industrial placement also adds an extra element of excitement, there's no doubt that is a bit of the magic formula. But that hybrid working, that changed after the pandemic has put some additional barriers in certain areas. And I think, in some areas, we've probably got a pre COVID policy for a post COVID world. And I think, you know, and I think that was something Ofsted commented about, about the particular challenges in in some areas. But my experience is, it's the young person who may have in the past done A levels, and this young person has chosen to do something in an area that they're really interested in.
And kind of conversely, do you have any students who you think don't do well with T levels? And can you do a sort of similar picture of what what that sort of person is like?
Yeah, I'll pick that one. I think John talked about assessment. The assessment is extremely rigorous, and, and very, very academic. And that's not suited to all of our students. I think at the moment where we're in a position where, where T levels form part of an offer, that sits alongside A levels, B techs, various other types of qualifications. And we're able to identify those sorts of students, it provides another option for a different type of student, so probably a student, you know, who would have gone down that A level route. So conversely, the T level is not appropriate for a lot of the students who have traditionally taken those vocational qualifications within colleges. And I think from my point of view, that's, that's the group of students I'm most worried about at the moment, I have an alternative for those students. And those students are still able to study to level three to be able to demonstrate their skills in a very different way. Not always through that sit down formally examination, but being able to demonstrate them in much more practical, consistent, other rigorous ways of assessment. And, and so at the moment, while we have that option, the T level enhances the qualification offer that we have for our students. My big concern at the moment is that all of the research that has been done has been looking at students that have been selected or have been guided towards the T level, because we know that they are, they fit that profile that John was talking about. My big concern is that we haven't really considered and the T level review doesn't really consider how they will be rolled out, how they will serve and meet the needs of students who are who we currently are not choosing to put onto T levels because there's something else that is better for them. And I think that the review might have looked very different, had had it been done in three or four years time, if that were to be the only level three offer that we have for our students.
I think the other thing I'd probably add to that is just around the capacity and space to deliver things like your GCSE retake. I think one of the positive things about a T level is the expectation of additional teaching hours. I think with that comes the challenge that if a student has a particular skill in an area, like English, but hasn't quite got there for maths, alongside other level three programmes, we're able to fit a GCSE, retaken alongside that, where the young person is a level three student, but just has one area that they need to work on and retake that isn't possible with in my experience, that's not possible with the T level. So it's it's legally possible. But it's not practically possible. And I think that's something that we just need to be really cognizant of. And I think is is a challenge, which sort of leads to to the point that Diana was making really is that, that it's important that we do have other options. They're not for every student.
And John, you referred to it not being practical or possible to introduce other qualifications alongside that simply because the hours involved in T levels soak up the students timetable, make it impossible for them to do another qualification alongside,
correct. So it's partly the hours that need to be deployed and the hours that need to be deployed for the industrial placement. But it's also the content there in some of the the T levels, the exam elements 60 hours in duration. So to fit that exam in one needs to start assessing that in February. And of course that's a particular challenge. There's only so many hours in the day. For many colleges, young people do quite a commute to get to college, because they've chosen that college as their destination of choice. So, you know, it's not practical because a logical explanation could be, could you stretch the day, these young people, they're already leaving home very early in the morning, getting home quite late at night.
And you both talked about the assessment element of the programmes. One of the things that we highlighted in our thematic review, and actually we made as part of our recommendation back to the Department for Education was to look at the assessment loading across T levels, because some seem to carry a very heavy burden of assessment. Staff found that difficult, students found that overpowering, really, is that something that you've been aware of? And it has that perhaps even shaped your choice of which T levels to offer?
I think, for me very aware, and I think it's one of those challenges that, you know, one of the the nice things about the Ofsted review is you looked at the totality of the T level. If you look at different elements, if you take the health T level, for example. And you look at the different I think it's eight different components in the assessment on their own, each of them look really good. But when you add them all up the scale and bureaucracy to manage that particular process, with potentially quite a big growing cohort of students, all of a sudden isn't any longer a viable proposition. So for me, I think it's it's almost using the the findings that you have as Ofsted and using that to really scale up T levels and say, well, if they were bigger, what would the assessment regime be like, and I think that's where we need to do that piece of work now, to not lose the ethos, but to actually make it scalable. So that would be my experience. I don't know, if Diana's had a similar experience.
I agree. I like the style. I'll talk again about the health one, I particularly like the style of the way that that's done and the way that mimics the kind of assessments that that young people would have if they progress on to university or if they take on that career. But the sheer numbers of staff, physical space, so the rooms that you need to do that. And you also need a you know, a large number of specialist staff to be running those assessments. And not all colleges will have seven or eight people who are specialists in that area who can run that qualification. And I'll tell you, we actually had an up when we made the decision, the employer Set Project, which is the eight assessments in lots of different spaces for students separated, obviously, so they can't communicate, we opened at the weekend, because that was the only way that we could find the space to do that while the college was was running. So it's it's very, very resource heavy, apart from the pressure that it puts on staff and students.
Great to hear the things you're doing to to make T levels work for your for your students. I think we found, you know, at their best T levels are a really, really good programme, and students and providers do do really benefit from offering them within a wider curriculum offer. John, you touched on and it's something we we majored on in our review about industry placements. And some of the challenges there, could you tell us a bit more about that John?
There is no doubt that the industry is it is a magic element of the T levels. So I would not, you know, for a minute be saying it's not a great idea. But I think in certain areas, by geography, by location, by the type of industry that sit in an area, I think that we do now need to think carefully about what is reasonable and achievable for each of the different individual pathways. And I think that how I would like to say it is on a continuum. If you had child care at one end of the continuum, where you would say that there is no way you can replicate looking after a three year old having two children myself, I can understand what that's like, there's no way you can replicate looking after a three year old in any other way than actually doing that. So so for me that needs a pretty big sizable industrial placement, because that's what's required. The digital? Today we're doing this podcast in different offices spread across the country. That's how many digital staff now work. We can give individuals and young people great experiences of new digital experience new digital platforms, different coding that perhaps doesn't sit on the syllabus to enhance their learning if they're unable to get an industrial placement for the full duration. And it seems to me that sort of one size fits all model isn't quite right for the post COVID world that we now operate in, and perhaps T levels need on that continuum to have an expectation at one end of childcare, and then perhaps a slightly different expectation, if it's a digital T level. And I think it's almost it's just really important that this honest conversation to continue the development and evolution of them so that they are great that they make a difference to UK PLC, and so that providers are able to scale and improve them year after year.
Our students have some amazing experiences. Like John said, I think that anybody who's been involved in work placements will tell you that when students go out and have a good experience have a really high quality experience. What they learn on that is completely is completely irreplaceable. So you provide students with that whole range of employability skills, and and you give them real life experiences, and you put them head and shoulders above other students. And I'll be honest, the student - my children have gone through and done done A levels. So they go through, they do their A levels, they gain the qualifications, they they you put them alongside a student who's been on a T level, who spent hours in a placement in industry. And they, I would argue they can't compete in terms of those employability skills and the stories that they have to tell and what that adds to their CV. So in the best placement students go in and they're given particular tasks to do, they're given projects to carry out and to take ownership of, and that gives them an amazing story to tell at interview. However, it's really challenging to provide that consistency of quality to scale up those number of placements. So at the moment, you know, I think last year, three and a half thousand students did a T level. And we found it difficult to find the right sort of quality placements for all of those students. Now, three and a half thousand is a really, really small number across the country.
It's a very, it's a very big challenge for us to find the number of placements that are required and and we'll be competing with each other we'll be competing with the other colleges, we will be competing with schools who start to come on board, and who also want to deliver to deliver placements. But we're also competing with universities, who can who can pay towards their placements. So that, you know, that's been a bit of a challenge for us. And I think the other big challenge that we found is that we are talking about 16 year olds starting on these programmes. Now your 16 year olds, particularly in the post pandemic world, they're often quite you know that there's a poverty of experience there. And we, you know, a lot of what we talk about those employee employability skills and behaviours that employers are looking for. Now at 16, many of our students, they don't have them yet. And so we can talk very, very convincingly with employers about them, and we can give them great examples. But when we send that when we send that 16 year old, they leave us they, they obviously we go through a long period with them of preparing them, we talk to them about behaviours, we train them for those behaviours. But when they go into that placement as a 16 year old walking in, they don't always exhibit those behaviours that we're expecting them to present by the end of their programme. And so you know, there's a, we have to work really hard with employers to set very realistic expectations of what they're going to get with a 16 year old who comes in on placement, we have to convince them of the value that that will bring to their organisation. And you know, and we've had a lot of success with that. But they also need to know that they are investing in our young people, that they will be part of that young person's development and growth. They're getting a young person who needs their support, their guidance, and an opportunity. So I think that's a challenge. The other one I would say very specifically around the health area is it's a real challenge to get a 16 year old, a placement in a hospital, the experiences that they get on the very best placements, we have students within the first week, see a baby be born see a hip replacement, but we also see how the students see see somebody on their ward die. And these are big issues, both very positive and very sad realities of the industry, they're going into that we have to prepare them for. So the challenges are are huge, but the benefits are immense when we get it right.
I think the only thing I'd probably add would be you know, not to not forget is travel. I think particularly in rural areas, where young people are doing, you know, significant commutes to get to their college or provider. I think then to try and find a travel route to a different location of a great employer who just happens to be in the next town or the next city or in the middle of nowhere, as as you would imagine in Devon we have occasionally. I think that's an interesting - just bear in mind that sometimes it's it's a practical challenge.
In a strange way there are difficulties if you're in a metropolitan area, because different colleges might be soaking up the available employer placements. But actually there are also difficulties in in a rural area where the opportunities are further afield and more more sort of thinly spread. On on the back of what you've both said about students being ready and you know, hitting that age of 16 entering such a big demanding programme. Can we talk a little bit about the transition programme for T levels? There's a one year transition programme at level two for these these programmes. We found some some shining examples and some less positive examples when we did the thematic. Can I ask you, first of all, do you do you engage with the T level transition programme and your views on it? If you do?
In our in the first few years, we haven't. And we found that to be a really difficult sell to students in terms of sort of what they're going to get from that. Because often what they need is a lot of maths and English, which isn't necessarily the appeal. So yes, it has the placements, but they're going to be spending time resitting and you know it, that's often the barrier to them being able to engage on a T level. However, we have introduced them as of this year, we can see the benefits of developing a programme, which essentially looks something like a three year programme. So for some of our students, they will need that three years in order to achieve a T level.
So the two are very closely integrated the transition programme and then the eventual T level.
We've been running the transition programme for a while. And I would say that I think the main function of the transition programme needs to be to help the young person achieve their maths and English. I think we see that as an absolutely critical element. I think our learning thus far has been that it also works well to have a small vocational qualification within that, even though it's not mandated within the guidance, we've found, it's actually really helpful for a young person to have a bit of a North Star that's going, 'well the thing I'm passionate about is this so that if I can keep working towards a qualification in the thing I'm interested in alongside my maths and English', we think that's probably the solution we're homing in on.
And presumably that gives them a sense of achievement after year one builds their confidence if they get that nested vocational qualification?
Yeah, absolutely. And it was really lovely, actually, we had a visit last Monday and one of the students who's now on the health T level did the transition programme the year before, managed to get their maths and English, but also got some skills around that health component. That's a great stepping stone, if you like, into the T level. But you know, designing a programme to lead you on to another programme is quite a complicated thing to say, you know, 'I know you're passionate about IT, great news, you're going to be studying quite a lot of maths and quite a lot of English'. Designing those programmes and getting the right staff and the right environment. I think it's a really important element.
You know, part of the T level transition programme offer is meant to be some form also of work placement. Does that have additional difficulties in that some of those transition level students may be, you know, a step further back to the folks you were both talking about earlier on, even less ready as it were to go out and engage?
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that, you know, it's also been exacerbated by that by the pandemic, there's no doubt that, that I think young people have learned less social skills, just because they have had periods of lockdown. And I think we're all working very hard to get the right behaviour, attitudes and attendance into young people. So yeah, it's it's definitely amplified the challenge.
One of the things we found was some difficulty that staff that typically taught on BTech and and other programmes, found the transition to T level teaching and particularly assessment, a little bit difficult. One or two issues with sort of staff retention and recruitment on these programmes. Can you give us a bit of a flavour about how you've dealt with that?
I did have a bit of time to listen to the Prime Minister's announcement yesterday and was very, very pleased that staffing in favour education and staffing in technical disciplines where it was sort of front and centre. It's not been easy. It's a great quote that I really like, which is 'any education system can only be as good as the people who work in it'. And certainly that's my experience. So we've have we have found it difficult. But we've also found that we've got some amazing staff who've come from digital, who have really embraced the concept of the industry element of the T level. But it's not easy, you know, on our college risk register. Staff being particularly for those higher technical roles is probably our biggest risk and our biggest challenge.
Really interesting. John, Diana, what, what's your perspective on staffing?
I think we've experienced the same sort of challenges as John in terms of trying to recruit people with the right skill set into into the organisation. One of the ways that we've we've worked with our current staff, obviously, there's been quite a considerable amount of training that's been put out by the Education Training Foundation, which we've prioritised for our staff, we've also encouraged them strongly encouraged them to do much more in terms of sort of industry updating, so getting them back out into the sector. Having lots of conversations with employers so that they can update their skills, you know, if it's existing staff who are moving across the T level, we need to make sure that their skills and their knowledge are you up to date with the with the industry. And you know, a lot of the industries we're working with are incredibly fast paced. But also we've recruited from industry as well, and that comes with, that brings great benefits because they come very, with very current knowledge. But then you're taking somebody who is a specialist in their area, and you're developing them as a teacher, whilst also developing a brand new programme and some of the challenges additional challenges we've had around that have been the amount of materials that we've received from awarding bodies or the you know, the example questions or style of exams, because everything's so new. We're not just bringing on bringing people in from industry to train them as teachers in something that as colleges were hugely confident with, we're actually asking them to develop brand new programmes alongside that. So industrial updating and relationships with employers are absolutely essential to ensure that the teaching and learning is currently is up to date and is inspiring for our for our young people. But it is a really challenging area, and recruiting staff from industry where they can be paid significantly more than I'm able to pay them at the college. You know, there are lots of people, I think who will be interested in moving into teaching and sharing the experience that they've had over years. But the salaries are just not comparable.
Thank you very much, everyone. It's been really interesting to hear about T levels. We've just got time for a few final reflections. And I wondered as part of that, whether you'd be able to say whether, if you had your time again, you would do a T level? And if so what in?
Well, that's that's a pretty easy one for me to answer. I think, after starting doing an apprenticeship, I then did a BTech ONC back in the day, and then a BTech HNC. ONC, which is an ordinary National Certificate, HNC a higher National Certificate, all of that part time. So I definitely would have been a candidate for a T level back in the day.
I would do any traditional a level route. So I if I'm quite honest, I think that's probably where I would go again, it's where my children have gone. Also, however, having seen the huge benefits that come with the quality industrial placements, I would like to see those added into the to the A level programme, because I think that they give young people an amazing advantage over students who take that classic academic route.
I think probably I'd be quite interested in one of the T levels that's being launched this this year, which is in the fourth wave of T levels. And that's the legal one always had a hankering to be a kind of a courtroom, a courtroom voice. I think I'd pursue the legal one.
I had a very similar journey to work to what John described with apprenticeships and technical and vocational education. My background been in construction and engineering. So I'm certainly a T level fan. I would happily go and do a T level at their institutions. I think that there are some issues that policymakers need to address to make these truly reach the potential that they're capable of.
Thank you so much to our guests Diana and John, and thank you very much to Ofsted's finest Paul and Richard for a really interesting conversation about T-levels.
