Ofsted Talks

On this podcast, we have Helen Davis, who's Head of National and Joint Inspection from HMI Probation, Lucy Hart, the Deputy Director and Multi-Agency Operations from CQC, Simon Alexander, the Associate Inspector from HMICFRS and Paul DInverno, Ofsted's HMI Specialist Advisor. We’re also joined by Sarah Jones and Tanya Fulcher from Norfolk County Council.

Simon Alexander 

those issues right away and they've been put right within that week, which is very different to the experience when you go in as a lone inspectorate, just looking more narrowly.

points in a service for somebody who's accessing accessing either one service or many services together. There is there is a really clear value in in case tracking and what that what that brings to  the voice of people within an inspection process.

how we can use the JTAIs and what that draws out from a multi-agency perspective to really reflect some of the impacts of the multi-agency practice.

Cait Mellow  

Simon Alexander  

Lucy Harte  

Fantastic. So thank you so much to Helen, Lucy, Simon and Paul. I'm now joined by a couple of colleagues from Norfolk County Council, Sarah Jones, Director of Safeguarding Partnerships and Opportunity, and Tanya Fulcher, Safeguarding Practice and Assurance. We're talking about the JTAI. What was your experience of that like? 

Sarah Jones

So from a Norfolk perspective, It was a really positive, rich experience, not just for the local authority, but for the partnership as well. On a number of levels, we've been on quite a significant improvement journey in Norfolk and when I first started there, a lot of the agencies in Norfolk were quite siloed in their approach. Everybody was looking down as opposed to out. And we made quite a shift as a partnership a number of years ago to start working more collaboratively, seeing children at the heart and the centre of what we do, coming together around a shared ambition. So actually a framework such as the JTAI really lent itself in Norfolk to how we like to work. The JTAI in particular, because there's quite a robust framework that sits behind something like a joint targeted area inspection, it really gave us the tools we needed to really assess what our individual practice was like for children and young people, particularly in the domestic abuse context. But it also then enabled us to look at what was our joined up and collective response in this space and what was our collective impact, but also what our collective improvements needed to be in this space. And I think it's true to say while a lot of work was happening across the partnership linked to domestic abuse and the fact that this particular JTAI was focused on children as victims and particularly children in that 0 to 7 space. It really, really made us think about our sort of collective practice and whether there was more that could be done. In Norfolk, I think we really model partnership working as senior leaders. So whether that's the constabulary, whether that's health, whether that's our education partners, the voluntary sector are very much a key partner around the table. I think we model that behaviour and that joined up working for our practitioners and staff. So this wasn't something new for Norfolk. This wasn't something that we were made to do. It didn't feel different and I think that really helped partners and particularly practitioners on the workforce. This wasn't something to be worried about. This was everyday practice that this was how we work. In terms of the way in which the JTAI is structured, it is hard work, you know, pulling together all of our multi-agency information, multi-agency audits, all the different policies and procedures that we collectively had. I wouldn't want to say it was an easy task for the partnership. 

Paul DInverno

It's still quite a challenging inspection to go through, but in some ways you were ready for it.

Sarah Jones

I think we were very much ready for a JTAI in Norfolk and actually because we'd got into the spirit of being a learning partnership very regularly every time a joint targeted area inspection theme would come about. So there'd been one just before on serious youth violence for example. I know this particular one was on domestic abuse. There's been others on neglect. Actually, we were able to use the framework as that sort of learning exercise and benchmarking for ourselves across the safeguarding partnership to really sort of test our individual and collective practice. And I think because of the relationships that we've invested in Norfolk with each other at a strategic level and operational level, it was a safe space to be vulnerable as well. So this is a really complex area. There are real children and families right at the end of it. Nothing is ever perfect sadly. So being able to have a space where we say actually, our collection of the voice of the child and our analysis, for example, may need to be better or the way in which we are sharing information at an earlier point needs to be more effective. That felt OK and safe to be able to be having those sort of honest conversations together. The honest reflection and in my experience of improvement, unless you're in that space where you can be vulnerable with each other as partners, as leaders, things do not improve and things do not get better for children. So one must be brave in order to make a difference. And I think in Norfolk during this particular experience, everybody was brave and willing to be vulnerable. 

Tanya Fulcher

Not only come, you know, highlight the really positive work, but actually to be able to say amongst ourselves, actually, this is really good, but we could be better at this, working in collaboration internally and externally. So even at that practitioner level, being able to highlight those areas of practice, both really positive, but actually also identify some of those areas that we'd like to strengthen. So all in all, it was a massively positive experience. 

Cait Mellow

And Tanya, who are some of those agencies that you were working with there? 

Tanya Fulcher

Across in the probation service, some of our health visiting teams, health in general, GPs, safeguarding. So there were many partners and relationships, some of which were already formed because obviously children's services form, you know, working relationships across all of the partners. But I think it really bonded and cemented some of those relationships. You know, they got to talk to people that maybe they hadn't before. I know there was examples of, you know, new health visitors that had come into post and we were able to form those relationships early on. So from that perspective, excellent, really good for practice. 

Sarah Jones

I guess for me in terms of improvements, really learning together about what improved identification and support for children at risk really looks like on a practice level. Another learning point I guess for us was around the need for greater access to specialist domestic abuse expertise. There was a lot of expertise across the system but I don't think necessarily all of our teams were accessing that in the right way. It was recognised during the JTAI that we had a robust workforce development approach across the partnership, but one of the things we learned was actually even though a lot of practitioners across the partnerships were being trained in terms of recognising domestic abuse interventions, what impact was that training actually having on their practice? And when we looked at that together as a partnership, we could see all this learning that had taken place, but we couldn't always see it in the case file when we were looking at what support had been given to the children. Not always were practitioners then taking what they'd learned enough for us to be able to see that in that direct practice. And I think another benefit for me was around a shared language. So depending on which agency you speak to, whether it be the police, you know, the local authority, health, just the way in which we understood domestic abuse and talking about that or the way in which each of us when we say risk, what do we actually mean by that? When we talk about cumulative harm actually from a police perspective to a children's services perspective, that could feel and look quite different. And even down to voices of the child, whether you were talking to a social worker, a health visitor or frontline police officer, voice of the child again meant different things. And for some it was just collecting the voice of the child in the there and there and then where as opposed to thinking about the voice of the child and analysing, you know, what impact could cumulative harm have meant for that individual child over a period of time. So that. It sounds simple, that shared language, but actually when you got into the depth of it about what each of those terms meant for us as different agencies, that was incredibly useful for our learning. 

Tanya Fulcher

And I would say that now, as a partnership, we're so much better at recognising, children as victims of domestic abuse in their own right. Their views are being captured. We can see direct work with children and understanding of that lived experience. The father-inclusive practice again is non-negotiable now for children's services in Norfolk, which means that all of our audit activity there, if it's a non-negotiable that we constantly revisit that to make sure that fathers are included in that and that goes obviously for perpetrators as well.

Sarah Jones

One of the things I often get on a soapbox about is the lack of join up nationally across government departments when it comes to children. So to have an inspection that includes the inspectorates that reflect a lot of the departments come together with a shared vision and a shared articulation of risk and true outcomes for children and come to work with us locally to talk about, ‘So what does this mean?’ Was incredibly valuable that that that in itself? I think there is a lot of learning nationally for how the the joint target area inspection actually works because the benefits are enormous. 

Tanya Fulcher

And there was some learning as well around, and I might be going off piste here, but sometimes practice was more variable, say for unborn babies and infants. So, working alongside our health visitor colleagues, for example, in health, hugely important to actually understand how. How do we capture the voice, for example, of children? How does that child remain central in that investigation or in that piece of work? And how do we actually gather that information from a non-verbal child? What do we need to capture? How do we work with our health colleagues? How do we come together on that to improve practice? 

Sarah Jones

The other bit I would add to that is as a partnership, we very regularly do multi-agency audits together. That's quite standard practice. But what the JTAI gave us was the framework to be more professionally curious in that space. I would say some of our previous multi-agency audits, particularly in the domestic abuse space, were quite light touch. They were quite broad where this really sort of made us think about children as victims, shared practice, cumulative harm, to be much more professionally curious then in our audit. We've been redoing those multi-agency audits every six months since, so it's given us a clear benchmark to assess our practice together. 

Paul DInverno

Part of the process is obviously at the end of the inspection when you've received our report and had time to reflect is to develop a multi-agency action plan. 

Sarah Jones

So we produced a composite improvement action plan, I think within, I think we actually started it during the JTAIs, we were picking up areas. But certainly in the weeks following, because it gives you some structure, it gives you some structure to come back to, it gives you something as a partnership to keep an eye on, monitor yourselves. Otherwise you get to the end of an inspection, you think, right, okay, that's done, what's next? And you can, it's quite easy to forget about the learning and forget about the things that need to be done. We also as a partnership in Norfolk had a leadership exchange event where the leaders who were part of the JTAI brought together our teams, our practitioners to share our reflections, our learning, what was next. Because we thought we had the privilege, I guess, as leaders to be able to hear that feedback direct from yourselves. Our practitioners across the system would only really be able to see the report. So we wanted that opportunity to share with them where we're really proud and recognise good practice, but also to be able to enforce the job is not done, it is never done. There are still improvements to make and this is what we're going to do. So and still now the composite action plan remains on the agenda every six months as part of our safeguarding partnership so that we don't take our eye off the ball in that space. 

Tanya Fulcher

Our learning has disseminated throughout every part of the service and across partnerships and in whatever professional meetings they're in regionally or nationally, that sharing is learned and is quite often part of an agenda to share the journey that we've been on and to share good practice. 

Sarah Jones

It just provides the perfect framework to make sure you are doing the right thing by children. 

Cait Mellow

Thank you so much to Sarah, Tanya and Paul. And I'd like to thank you very much for listening to our podcast and join us next time.

We want to make sure that Ofsted plays its part in ensuring children and young people in our social care system are happy, safe and able to reach their full potential. Take part by giving us your views: Improving the way Ofsted inspects children’s social care - GOV.UK

Transcript: 

Tracey Metcalfe

My name is Tracey Metcalfe and I'm the Assistant Regional Director for Social Care and Regulation in the North East Yorkshire and Humber. We're consulting on reforms to our two main social care inspection frameworks, the Inspection of Local Authority Children's Services or ILACS for short, and the Social Care Inspection Framework, or SCIFF for short. So I'm here today with my colleagues, Dominic Stevens and Matthew Brazier. I'm going to ask colleagues to introduce themselves. Dominic.

Dominic Stevens

Hi. So I'm Dominic Stevens. I'm the programme lead for the ILACS Inspection Framework.

Matthew Brazier

Thanks, Tracy. Yeah, I'm Matthew Brazier and I do a similar job as Dominic, but I'm the programme director for the social care common inspection framework, which I'll explain a little bit more in a minute about what that means.

Tracey Metcalfe

Thanks so much, Matthew. Thanks both for joining me today. So we're consulting on reforms to our two main social care inspection frameworks. So could you both just briefly explain what these two inspection programmes are for and how they work for children? So I'm going to come to you first, Dominic.

Dominic Stevens

Thanks. So the ILACS framework, and as you've said, stands for Inspecting Local Authority Children's Services, is the framework we use when Ofsted acts as the inspectorate for all local authority children's services around the country. And we'll say a little bit more in a minute about what that means and how it might develop a little bit in the future.

Matthew Brazier

Social care common inspection framework, which is a bit of a mouthful, but that's a framework that looks at mainly regulated services. So things like children's homes, fostering services, residential family centres. And I think I probably should say a little bit about what regulated means. In other words, services that must meet certain standards of quality and safety that the organisations that provide these services have to register with Ofsted and follow certain guidelines and procedures.

Tracey Metcalfe

That's really helpful. And I wonder, Matthew, could we explore what's changing and why we're consultants? So, for example, can you tell me a little bit more about the vision for our revised frameworks in the SCIF, for example?

Matthew Brazier

We want our inspections to continue to act as a force for good. We want them to encourage the highest quality of practice and provision to ensure the best outcomes for children and their families. We've been working a lot with the government. We're ensuring that our frameworks reflect the reform agenda and to make sure that they align with changes to statutory guidance. We want to strengthen the way that ILACS and SCIFF talks to each other, to encourage providers and commissioners to work together, for example, to secure the right homes for children in the right places and ensure they meet the needs of all children, including especially those with complex lives. And to do this, we'll make the best use of our insights promptly and effectively, and we really need to reflect the shared responsibilities that local authorities and providers have for, after all, are the same children. And enduring relationships with the heart of inspection. And finally, and most importantly, we want to make sure we do all we can to hear the voices of children and their families, to help them participate in inspections. We really want to improve the way we feedback our findings to children and families. We've made some specific proposals in this consultation, but we also have set out an ambition for both the frameworks, what we want our inspections to do. One is that we want to make sure that there are different inspection frameworks talk to each other, that we make the best use of our evidence.

But perhaps most importantly, we want to make children's enduring relationships a central focus of both ILACS and SCIF. We want to make sure that children's connections and how that they're helped by services are really one of the most important questions that an inspector can ask. not just for children's relationships now, but also for their future as they approach adulthood. So that will be a real central part. Relationships have always been an important part of our inspection frameworks, but we want to make it front and centre.

Tracey Metcalfe

Yeah, so what you're talking about is putting children and young people and families right at the centre of our work across both frameworks.

Matthew Brazier

Another thing that we're we set out in the framework that we really want our inspections to encourage providers that are able to meet the needs of children with the most complex lives. We've been worried, not only us, I think everybody who works with children and families have been worried that some of the most vulnerable children are the most likely to experience instability. And we want to make sure that inspections really promote the work that helps those children. Because if we get it right, for the most disadvantaged the likelihood is that we'll get it right for all children.

Tracey Metcalfe

I just wonder if we could build on that and kind of briefly outline some of the key changes then we're proposing in the SCIF to do some of those things you're talking about.

Matthew Brazier

In the SCIF, not only do we want to make it clearer that we'll be taking a closer look at how relationships are promoted, we're proposing to have a separate outcome evaluation area on enduring relationships. So that's new. We're keeping the other evaluation areas that we have already. We're going to keep leadership and the impact on the impact of leaders. We're going to keep looking at making a judgment on the safety of children, but we want to add a new one on enduring relationships. That aligns with the government's ambition, and I think it aligns with the sector's view that this is the enduring relationship is so critical for children. So we hope that will be supported by the sector, but we're really interested in the views from everybody who answers the consultation about how we do that to make sure we're looking at the right things when we look at enduring relationships.

Tracey Metcalfe

Yeah, can I just take you, Matthew, for a moment to think about the focus on fostering? Because that is obviously something that we are going to be focusing on in the new framework. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Matthew Brazier

We're proposing to add an evaluation area on support to foster carers for inspections of independent fostering agencies. Again, everybody listening to this podcast will know that there's a real challenge to recruit enough foster carers for children. And it's really important that local authorities are able to recruit the right number and agents and fostering agencies are able to recruit the right number with the right skills and experience and that they're properly supported and that they stay in fostering. So we're going to look closely about how well agencies recruit foster carers and how well they support them. We hope that one of the changes that we're proposing for SCIFF is how we link more closely to ILACS and how those two frameworks talk to each other.

Tracey Metcalfe

Well, that brings us really nicely on to Dominic, actually.

Dominic Stevens

I mean, I think, first of all, I want to echo everything that Matthew has just said. And it's important as we go forward that we really further strengthen the synergy between the two frameworks and how they work together, and indeed with Ofsted's other frameworks. I think I'd also want to start, if it doesn't seem a little bit back to front, with the things that aren't going to change. I think it's really important to say that whatever changes we aspire to make, at their heart, these frameworks are absolutely focused on whether or not children's needs are being met. how well they're being safeguarded, how well they're being helped to keep in touch with people who matter to them. And those things absolutely continue through. And the desire here really is to reflect developing practice, reflect the changes that the DFE are ushering in, you know, and to strengthen even further how we inspect and the extent to which they actually act as a driver and they provide learning for the sector to improve improved services for children, which is the bottom line. So in terms of the specific changes, the DFE are already consulting on changes that would enable Ofsted to look more closely at how local authorities support families at an earlier stage, and in particular targeted early help and how they support families to stay together.

We propose to amend our inspection frameworks so that they're much more focused on this, and we're able to target our inspection time on looking at those services at a much earlier stage of intervention for children and their families. We want to make sure that all the judgments really do three things and these echo some of the things that Matthew was just touching on. It's about looking at how effectively local authorities engage children, families and their carers in being central to decision decision making about their lives and indeed to shape the services they receive going forward. It's also about how they help those children to create and maintain enduring relationships with families, friends and professionals who are important to them. And finally, how effectively the local authority works with other agencies to meet children's and families needs. Because as we go forward with this, early help in particular is a real multi-agency area. Other changes that the government are bringing forward involve the creation of multi-agency child protection teams that are already being piloted in a number of areas. So it's important that our frameworks keep pace with and match those changes. We're also consulting on measures to tackle the use of illegal unregistered children's homes.

Finally, I suppose I'd just like to say that we're looking at the time scales between inspections, because it's important that we get the balance right between inspection, oversight and providing learning on services to local authorities, but also on giving those same local authorities the space and time to improve. So the inspection burden isn't too heavy on them. So it's about being proportionate and getting it right. And of course, that's going to be part of our consultation.

Tracey Metcalfe

Thank you, Dominic. And I know we're also exploring other changes that will affect both the frameworks. Matthew, I just wonder, could you tell me a bit more about the proposed five point scale and what impact we think this will have for children?

Matthew Brazier

The children, young people and families whose experiences we look at are obviously not just helped by children's social care, you know, they'll attend nurseries, schools and colleges. And we think it's more helpful for children, parents, the wider general public, if we use the same scale for all our inspections. It'll also help us to link our judgments more closely to government expectations. And hopefully it will make it much clearer whether a local authority or a provider is meeting or exceeding or surpassing these expectations.

Tracey Metcalfe

Thanks, Matthew. That's really helpful. And Dominic, we're also exploring how we can improve the way we report on our inspections. Could you tell me a bit about proposals for report cards, for example?

Dominic Stevens

Yeah, certainly. And it sort of links to the last point that Matthew was making as well. And it's about creating greater consistency across all of the areas that Ofsted inspects and regulates, you know, whether it's nurseries, whether it's schools, local authority children's services or children's homes. So it's easy for professionals and particularly for families, for children to be able to look at a more consistent product. And I mean, I think at the moment we publish our reports as documents on our website, which is fine, but, you know, we think we can do better. So we propose to move to, you know, online report cards. that provide an accessible summary of the grades we've given and a drop down section that then gives more of the detail and it will allow readers to go to the specific section of the report they want more more easily as well as indeed to read to read the whole as they would at the moment. The report card includes key facts and figures to help readers to understand the context of our findings. You know, and this may be about the demography, the makeup of the local authority, but also some of the key performance figures which, you know, the Department for Education, Ofsted, you know, the public at large are interested in. So naturally we'll be consulting on what are the right facts and figures, the right data to put in as part of our consultation.

Tracey Metcalfe

Thanks, Dominic. And talking about that consultation, who do we want to hear from as part of our consultation?

Dominic Stevens

Everybody is the short answer. I mean, naturally, we will want to hear from large organisations that represent the sectors we inspect and regulate, you know, whether that's local authority children's services, children's homes, residential special schools. We want to hear from all of the large charities or bodies that have an involvement in this. We want to hear from our own staff within Ofsted. Naturally, we'll be speaking to them too, from a social worker sitting at a desk who has a bright idea. But, you know, most importantly, we want to hear from children, young people and their families. You know, we expect local authorities to listen to children, young people and families and use that to shape their services. It's absolutely right that Ofsted does exactly the same when we embark on a significant change to how we inspect and regulate.

Tracey Metcalfe

Yeah. And Matthew, how important is it that we hear from as many people as Dominic's describing?

Matthew Brazier

Well, we want what we do not just be based on what Ofsted thinks. We want it to be based on what everybody across the sector, including children, young people and family think. We want it to be a consensus. We won't always get agreement with everybody, but it is a genuine consultation. We really do want to know. We haven't made decisions about these proposals. We have some ideas, but we're generally interested in what people have to say and, you know, we'll adapt what we do as we hear people's responses. It'll help shape our testing of what we do as well, because before we actually reach a decision, we'll try out some of these proposals in either as an inspection or just test some elements of the proposals to make sure they work. We really need to make, if we, whatever we do decide upon, we've got to make sure that it will work for children and families. So they will think really carefully, listen to everybody really carefully about what they're telling us to make sure that we come to the right decisions.

Tracey Metcalfe

Yeah, that's really important. And Matthew, what will we do with the responses that you're talking about? You know, how does what people tell us feed into policy and development?

Matthew Brazier

We'll know who's replying because we'll ask people on what basis they're replying. You know, are they child in care, for example? Are they replying on the basis from an organisation? So we understand some of the context. It'll help us to identify themes. And at the end of the day, we're going to have to make a decision about what to do. But we will reply properly. We'll set out a formal response to this. We'll publish a report in due course, saying what we've explaining, what we've heard, what we're going to do and why we're doing it. And not everybody will be agreeing with us with what we're suggesting, but we need to explain carefully about why we might not be doing certain things, but why we're going down this particular road.

Tracey Metcalfe

And I guess, Dominic, listening to what Matthew's saying, how are you going to weigh up the different suggestions and the stories of children, young people's families experiences? How are you going to weigh up those different suggestions?

Dominic Stevens

The way that we've structured the questions will enable us to group them into specific areas. So some of it might be not that we're weighing one particular suggestion against another suggestion, but we've got lots of suggestions from individuals and different bodies. And in many of them, there's a common theme, issue or suggestion emerging. Naturally, we'll want responses from, you know, large organisations that may represent many hundreds or thousands of people. They may come up with some really good suggestions or comments. But there might be that one social worker at a desk somewhere who comes up with a really great idea, or one child or parent who comes up with a really great idea. So actually ideas can be of equal merit wherever they come from.

Tracey Metcalfe

And those experiences are vital to help us shape our thinking and to get this right, make sure we get it right for children and young people and their families. Well can I thank you both very much for your contributions. I think the message is that we can only make a difference to children's lives if we all work together and it's really important the message today about everyone getting involved in that consultation. The consultation is now live. you have until the 28th of September to fill it in. Look on Gov.UK or search Ofsted Social Care Consultation. We'll consider every response. We will publish our response in early 2027 and the revised framework will be published in February 2027.

Did you know Ofsted inspects out of school care for children under the age of 8? This can include activity-based clubs, wraparound care and holiday activities. Find out more about how we inspect in this podcast with guests Craig Jones from the School-Aged Childcare Association and Dan Super from Super Team Sports. 

Cait Mellow: Hello everybody and welcome to another edition of Ofsted Talks. This time we're talking about school-age childcare. Did you know we inspect and regulate out-of-school care? I'm here with Wendy Ratcliff, HMI, the Principal Officer for Early Education at Ofsted. Caroline Hearn, the Specialist Advisor for Early Years at Ofsted. Craig Jones from School Age Child Care Association and Dan Super from Super Team Sports. What type of setting does this cover? After school, holiday clubs, wraparound sports? Caroline, talk us through that. 

Caroline Hearn: I absolutely can. But before I start, I just want to say we are recording this July 2026. So, we're heading into the summer holidays. And just I think Wendy and I and all at Ofsted would want to say a big thank you to all the wraparound providers who, unlike a lot of sectors who are winding down potentially in schools for the summer, we know the wraparound providers are gearing up to what is very hot summer it's turning out to be. So huge thanks for all the work they do to keep children safe, happy and well educated over the summer. I think that's just a huge importance for us to say that. And then of course I can answer the question. So after school clubs, it's funny, it really depends on the register you're on rather than the type of provision. So the way the Department of Education set up the legislation, you've got the early years register, which is for children from birth to the 31st of August after their 5th birthday. And then you've got the later years registers for 5 to 8 and then the voluntary for older children. So it really depends on the ages of the children that you want to be caring for. And often we find those that offer that the around holiday clubs, breakfast clubs, all of those, that type of care provision, do also register on the early years register because we've got those children who go into school who are before the 31st of August, before their 5th birthday. So they are captured in that age group. And then within that, there's all the different provider types that we have that I've just mentioned. So really, I want to now just ask Wendy, I'm just really interested, and Dan and Craig, just looking at what Ofsted does in our inspection work, how have you found inspections? I've talked about all that wide range of provision that gets inspected. So I'm going to hand over to Wendy and Dan and Craig to talk a bit more about that. 

Wendy Ratcliff: 

Shall I just talk a little bit about the changes we've made to how we inspect registered early years, if you're on the early years register as out of school providers, then maybe Dan and Craig, you can tell us a little bit about what you're finding?  

So if you are a provider that is registered on the early years register but only provide care exclusively to children at the beginning of or and end of the school day or during school holidays, you only need to meet the safeguarding and welfare requirements of the DFE's early years foundation stage. Therefore, our inspectors, when they come to do your inspection, they're not going to grade particular evaluation areas, curriculum and teaching or achievement, because you don't have to meet the learning and development requirements. And that's the same for before and after school settings and holiday provision with children younger than reception age. If you have one of these settings, you must have regard to, but you do not have to meet those learning and development requirements of the EYFS. Inspectors do evaluate though, your safeguarding and welfare arrangements. They will confirm that your setting meets the requirements of the early years register. And if your setting is also on the compulsory or voluntary part of the childcare register, inspectors will need to check it meets those requirements. So inspectors will do a range of things in, you know, gathering that first hand evidence and having those discussions. working with leaders, taking leaders on the journey and working collaboratively throughout that inspection through kind of like shared observations, using the early years toolkit. I could say more, but let's bring Craig down in. What are you finding in terms of our inspections? 

Craig Jones: 

First of all, thank you for the opportunity to speak and meet you guys as well. I guess we're finding that the scorecard, we're big fans of the scorecard and a lot of our providers are, it's something we've requested in relation to having an aspirational workforce. So they're not just looking at met or not met. And now we can have strong standards and if we can exceed them, amazing. So that's something obviously we couldn't get when outstanding good was changed to not met, which is fantastic. So I think that there's no doubt that that's something that we really want to strive for. And I think, again, it's sort of given the fire in providers’ bellies to really raise that quality as well. And I think the cycle of inspection, so clearly, we've obviously, everyone's got deadlines, we can see that. So there's quite a surge of activity to hit that three-year cycle, and we can see lots of inspections coming through at the end of the school term and during the school holiday periods as well, which clearly there's a lot of provisions that sort of register the same time. There's lots of providers start for the summer, so I can imagine Ofsted have got like a spike there. Our providers over our membership had over 100 inspections since November. So hopefully we can give a bit of feedback on that. But yeah, Dan, I think you've had one in Easter? 

Dan Super: 

We had two at Easter. So yeah, a quick little overview of who Super Sports are. So we only run holiday camps. That's what we do. It's been going nearly nine or 10 years now. Predominantly for years was mainly sports coaching camps. And then in the last two or three years, we've joined the early years register. We start taking children from age 3, as well as then the compulsory and voluntary registers. We run our camps every school holiday in independent schools. So in the kind of the private school facilities when those schools aren't running. Had previous knowledge. So last year had had a voluntary inspection at one of our locations, which was just more of a 45 minute, one hour inspection. Still wouldn't say very easy, but it was definitely easier than the full early years, which we had two this Easter, two weeks in a row back-to-back. And I enjoyed them, to be honest. It was, I was scared, I was nervous. It was, first time we'd been going nearly two years with early years, confident that we were, you know, that we're doing everything we needed to do. Had a lot of advice from, you know, SACA and other organisations that are there to support us. But you just always have that little worry of, until Ofsted are there, you know, to get to really, to really know. And it did, it went really well. We got strong across the board in all the areas. Both of the inspectors went through the toolkit on the day, the call the day before, then arranging a call in the afternoon, that was great. Felt like we knew the inspector before they arrived. Yeah, on the day, really supportive, definitely working together, felt supported all the way through and now confident and looking forward to another one. 

Wendy:  

And I just liked actually hearing you say about the planning call. That's actually something we are hearing across the sector, that the sector are welcoming it. And also, you know, thinking about that, notice and those telephone calls and the preparation in advance of actually being on site. And as you say, feeling like you've already built that professional relationship with the inspector. I think what's really important as well is something else she was saying there, it's saying about, we're confident we're doing what we're doing for our children is right. And I think that's a really key message for us, isn't it, Caroline, in terms of if you're doing what's right for your children, then you're doing what's right for Ofsted and you shouldn't be needing to do anything that isn't already set out in statutory or non-statutory guidance, which of course for early years is the early years foundation stage. And that's kind of like what the toolkit's based on. So we didn't want the toolkit to add extra workload to providers. 

Caroline: 

Yeah, it's a really interesting point you're raising there. And I'll just pick up on one thing you said there, Danny, that Les, you know, you were nervous. I think if you're vested in something and you really want to do well for children, which that's what the sector is there for, we want to do well for children, you're going to be invested in it, so you are going to have some nerves. So I think nerves are to be expected, but we need to work with you and help put you at your ease when we arrive and all the things that Wendy just about the planning call should all really help with that. You also talked about the difference in inspections though, it's really interesting. So the early years inspection, we're now moving to a four year window. So it was six, we're now every four. And then the later years, so if you're registered on the later years registers, that's a 10% sample. So you may or may not get an inspection. So you have, so you've had experience of both. But yeah, that's the difference between those registers and that's why that does just feel really different when you're out there having those different experiences because they are different by design. 

Craig: 

I think so. Certainly our sector is predominantly 5 plus. Now there will be school-aged childcares and the nature of it is that the children at full-time school and education. So therefore while there is 3 and four year olds, those 5, 6, 7, 8 plus are the core. 

Caroline: 

I mean, just have no doubt, we're always interested in all the children. It's just the legislation asks us to look at a certain age child. So it does seem like we're following around the four year old or not quite, you know, not quite 31st of all because after 5th birthday, five year old. But yeah, we're definitely interested in experiences for all children because that tells a lot about the setting and how relaxed children are and how much they're enjoying their experience and how confident they are. You still see all of that? 

Wendy: 

And thinking about that safeguarding culture. for example, that the safeguarding culture across the piece, of course, isn't it? And Dan, I know you touched on the call. I think the call is helpful. There's no doubt about it. And even just talking about the setting and getting the inspector's knowledge about even logistics around where do we park and where do we meet and so on, all those things that can sometimes take time before. And it feels like straight away the inspection is more around the children versus paperwork and policy, when obviously that's all important as well, but it feels like there's that, the duty of care requirement, feels like it's more focused on that than maybe, you know, a long time ago, maybe inspections were geared towards around paperwork, which again is still asked and deep dive in on those questions, but I think I like the idea of when the inspectors are in, they actually follow a trail and they'll follow a thread of something. So this team member, can we look at their recruitment? How did they start? What their process? Can we now speak to them? What training do they have? So it feels like it's end to end as well versus maybe before, maybe some providers have brought in their best people to go through an inspection. And now it feels like the inspection process is a lot more robust to to make sure that that's a, I guess, a measured outlook as well. 

So following through those areas of inspection focus and, at the end of the day, what we want to do is we want to find out what it's like to be a child at this holiday play scheme. We want to find out what it's like to be a child at this breakfast club, this out of school, you know, provision. That's really important. And what it's like, typically like, not just on the day of inspection. 

Caroline: 

We've had some questions around, qualifications. And we're well aware that when it's school age childcare, not specifically three-year olds, that qualification is sort of deemed by the provider and the provider can choose what qualification, obviously mandatory safeguarding and whether they're providing food and so on, food hygiene, but that and paediatric first aid, but that feels like it's sometimes can be ambiguous. I know it's something that school-aged childcare association really pushing forward in relation to what kind of qualification framework or standard should there be for school-aged childcare, which again is not linked to the inspection. It's just trying to raise that quality as well. But Dan, you've got a lot of range of qualifications, don't you, from teachers and nursery team members to sports coaches and so on. 

Dan: 

Yeah, there's all of the younger coaches that are doing sports kind of leadership courses at school. We run our own ones of those now to give some key leadership. And then we touch on safeguarding in those, even for age 16 plus, just starting to teach them all about that. And then there's all the different national governing bodies for each of the sports that have their level ones, twos and threes. And obviously those sports coaching qualifications I don't think mean very much to Ofsted. It's more, that's more learning how to coach the sport. Those courses usually come with safeguarding qualifications. They have to get through the governing body. 

Caroline: 

We do recognise the qualifications. Anybody who's taken the time to go and get a qualification want to up their skill set, that's no bad thing. We're always really keen to see that. What we don't have is any specific qualifications because you've got EYFS. is there. Yes, we do recognise qualifications and you can see when a staff member is skilled and had some training, it's really good and really important. But I think that's one for the department to look at and look at the underpinning legislation and to help. with that, because I think, the sector are asking for that kind of to be a little bit more navigable, so to speak. Just looking at the sector and what's going on in the sector at the moment, people might find it interesting to know how there's been lots of government initiatives, lots of change at the moment. What's it like out there in the sector at the moment? How is it looking? Obviously, we see what we see through inspection, but you see what you see through the kind of sector growth. 

Craig: 

It's quite good actually. So you've got, I'll maybe talk from a maintain school background and then Dan from an independent. So maintained schools, we're definitely seeing more children with SEND challenges. I guess a range of whether children have got EHCP plans or not and how we can be, how can we make reasonable adjustments versus unreasonable adjustments. That's quite a grey area for providers. I think that's quite an area whereby we definitely need more upskilling and I know that lots of providers have various partnerships to help their team members. Cost of living has been challenging, no doubt about it, and the price of childcare is rising and that sort of goes in line with the national minimum wage increases and so on. So to make that sustainable and really make sure it's constantly striving to develop people. The challenge is making sure that the best people stay in the sector, I think. And certainly within wraparound childcare and school age childcare, you know, that split shift scenario of a breakfast club and an after school and then a holiday, right? How can we make that a real role that people feel? And it's great that we've got those different roles for people and backgrounds and all those people that do work in the sector. but I do feel that maybe that progression and that I think the qualification and the standard in the future could help that as well. So staff retention is a challenge, no doubt about it, but I see innovation from providers and how they develop and retain their people, whether that's engagement pieces throughout the term time, whether that's being full-time contracts versus just holiday or just term time, and then also providing that real flexibility. Some of our team members in the sector don't necessarily want to work Monday to Friday anymore. So having that option of working some of the peak days and we see Friday as a real quieter day within wraparound childcare in the term time certainly and sometimes in the holidays as well with that sort of remote working and difference in behaviour there I guess. All in all the sector is super resilient. The National Wraparound Fund has seen lots of new spaces grow and create new clubs. I am worried about the sustainability within school age childcare session, there's over 100 schools that will be closing because they're not sustainable and that have previously had funding. So there seems to be, we could have some kind of solution after that in regard to a parent subsidy and so on. Great news around the holiday activity food fund and the continuation then, but I know local authorities can flex that up, but that can create challenges for providers. But All in all, those challenges aside, the sector is still continuing to grow. I do think it's professionalizing more as well and seeing, and I'm going back to that scorecard scenario, that's got lots to do with it. The sector's now aspiring and I think, you know, the first provider that gets that exceptional will be a real coup because I think it's, I actually do think it's quite difficult for out of school because you're only seeing a snapshot of maybe one hour, 3 hours. whereas a nurse where you can see the children in their learning environment as well. But needless to say, I think, and Dan, you might be the first, aren't you? So maybe from an independent school background, you'd want to give an outcome there. No pressure, mate! 

Dan: 

Yeah, I hope so. No, we should have one, another one due this summer, I think. So, yeah. In terms of the independent school sector, that all of the, our camps are open to children from all backgrounds. With regards to children, everything Craig said, again, we're noticing exactly the same. And then with the recruitment and coaches challenges, again, all the same. I guess the only difference that we're noticing independent school wise is the addition of VAT onto school fees. So there are some independent schools closing. I guess then we are then seen more as a marketing tool for the independent school that we work at, that then we work with the marketing admissions team to help, in local community engagement of that school into the, for the, area coming in to attract children to the school. 

Wendy: 

Is there anything around registration timelines, Caroline, that you wanted to follow up? 

Caroline: 

Yeah, I mean, people's registration is, we're doing a lot this summer. We're going to take down all our existing registration guidance and reissue just to make a lot more clarity. I think it still comes back to, it does take a window that it takes because it, and it's an average of 12 weeks because we've got a lot of checks to do on individuals. We're really mindful though that we've got individuals out there who've got buildings and probably staff starting to set up and they want to get parents and it's that sequencing and how you can sequence to make sure that the things align so that your registration is really at the point where you're starting to want to pay for those buildings and pay for those structures and got to make sure it's safe for children and it's right for children. And then we've got to make sure that we're keeping as much communication with you as we can. We've introduced welcome calls into our registration processes to kind of have that chat with people to walk through. And of course, I mean, you guys will probably be looking at more of expansion of existing, so an approval visit when you're wanting to add on a new provision because that's possible. That's a bit quick because we already know you and know a little bit about you. Is there anything sort of you think we could be doing different in the registration space? 

Wendy: 

Caroline, we're seeing a lot of the sectors sort of consolidate. So some of the smaller providers are starting to work with the larger providers. And I think to Dan's point within the independent school sector, you can feel how that might happen as well to help them one survive, but also continue to grow and give opportunity to more employees and more children. And I think then that can be challenging because there's a point where a provision might be closing and a provider wants to take it on to keep consistency of service. And then that feels like even when the staff are TUPE-ing across and it's the same team members versus the same employer, that feels like maybe, because at the end of the day, we don't want it to impact the families that need that consistent care. So there's, I think there's a piece there that maybe, school-aged child care can help Ofsted in understanding some of the challenges there as well. 

Caroline: 

That's really interesting. So helpfully, the Secretary of State announced earlier in the year that she is now looking at, and she's commissioned the department to look at multiple provisions. So exactly what you're saying, where you're trying to bring in new provision and you're growing your business, but maybe get it all under one registration and what that looks like. So they're looking at the legislation around that. And I know there'll be after groups like yourselves to come in and talk about that with them and talk about experiences of that. And that work has already started. Can't talk too much more about that at the moment, but just kind of it's there, it's been announced, it's been it's being looked at. So you are being heard in that space. 

Craig: 

I think that's positive, Dan, from my point of view, certainly for the members in relation to them often having to speak to one person and the restrictions that one person has when that one person might be associated with 50 to 60 settings. It feels quite prohibitive and I know we can have other people attached to them, but that sort of one person scenario. It doesn't feel like the business owner, Dan, I know you're under pressure with that. You know, you would never go on holiday when the provision's on at the moment. Whereas obviously a provider that runs 52 weeks of the year is going to need that time as well. So yeah, it feels like there's something more there as well that could maybe the infrastructure of a medium sized organisation and how many people are known to Ofsted? 

Caroline: 

Definitely, hearing that kind of one point of contact is tricky when you've got a lot of provision that you are the one point of contact for. So yes, there's definitely something to come back on that on. I was just looking, we talked a bit about inspection and how that's going. And I just wondered, just to ask Wendy a bit more about the toolkit and how providers can use the toolkit, because there's some sort of changes in that within our ways of inspecting that might be interesting to explore. 

Wendy: 

Yeah, absolutely. That's a really good question and something that we would encourage settings providers to be using the toolkit in between inspection as well, because it's something that we feel can be used as a self-improvement tool. We want to be open and transparent with, what it is that we look at when we're on inspection. There's some really useful evidence gathering prompts in there in terms of what our inspectors will look at, you know, in terms of, as you say, following through one of those areas of inspection focus you talked about earlier, Craig, that kind of thing. And just that kind of reassurance that, you know, we don't want the toolkit to add to settings workload, anything, you know, there shouldn't be anything in the toolkit that a setting's not already expected to do by other, you know, statutory guidance, non-statutory guidance. And very much, using it as a tool in between inspection, as that kind of like self-improvement tool. Our inspectors will work with settings and leaders and go, use it as a way of celebrating what a setting is doing well, validating leaders, what leaders are working on and their priorities. for the future. And also then there's that opportunity to highlight where improvement is still needed. And then there's then, then there's the standards as well in terms of how they're set out. And that's set out of, across that five point grading scale. There's, and we've got needs attention expected, strong standard. They're all on one page and they're on one page for a reason because they're the grades we expect to see most often. And every inspection will start with expected standard because that's what we should expect for all our children. 

Dan: 

On the planning call, one of the things the inspector was asking us is where we thought that we are on the on in terms of the grading on the toolkit. and first inspection we went modestly with expected and then that was the starting point in the actual inspection. The inspector went through that column and on each of the different areas, all the different points and then we ended up with strong. So she moved us up from where we thought we were. And then the next week for the next one, we kind of knew where we were. So we went with strong and that was the column again that she was then grading us on. And it was, it was, it was, that was a big consistency. There were slight, slight differences as well between the inspections, but that was a, that was a really good thing. Then we, yeah, enjoyed that. I found the framework over the last few years more difficult to read. That toolkit now, I think, is we've all been through it lots recently, and it's a lot easier to read. 

Wendy: 

That's good to hear. Thanks for sharing that, Dan. And I think as well, the other thing to say with the toolkit, and hopefully that comes through as well, is that there is, it does talk about how the toolkit works for different provider types. So it will say, for out of school providers, curriculum and teaching, for example, that doesn't apply. You use the word consistency there because that's something from our chief inspector, Sir Martyn Oliver's big listen he did not long after he was first in post. And consistency was something that was coming through. And that is one of the things that we've said we need to make sure that there's a consistent approach to how we use our inspection methodology whilst taking into account the context in which providers are working in because no... It's a bit like we say, no two child minders are the same. So no two inspections are going to be the same. No two types of holiday place scheme are the same. They might be operating under the same kind of like umbrella and policies and procedures, but they're in a different building to the one, you know, it's a different, no 2 inspections are ever going to be the same. But the application of how we apply our inspection approach, there should be consistency there. So that's good to hear. Okay, so just before we finish, I think it's good to finish off where Caroline, you started by giving thanks to the sector for all that they do. They're providing for children before school, after school, during school holidays. We've got a busy summer coming up. So yeah, just to say thank you and you carry on doing what you're doing. And if you are doing inspection, then just remember that, if you're doing what's right for your children, then you're doing what's right for Ofsted. 

Cait:  

So, thank you so much to Craig, Caroline, Wendy and Dan and join us next time on the Ofsted Talks podcast 

We spoke to Dan Tingle from the National Grid about how he found the recent inspection under the renewed framework, Joel Dalhouse the lead inspector, and Denise Olander, Ofsted's Deputy Director of post-16 education, training and skills.

Cait Mellow

Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Ofsted Talks, the Ofsted podcast. I'm hosting the podcast this time. My name is Cait Mellow and I'm the Head of Engagement at Ofsted. I'm here today with Denise Olander, who is Ofsted's Deputy Director for FE, Dan Tingle, who's the Head of Development Programmes at the National Grid and Joel Dalhouse, His Majesty's Inspector from the West Midlands FE team. As we've recorded this, we've published reports for about 150 inspections so far under the renewed inspection framework, but let's focus on one in particular. We inspected the National Grid recently. So, Joel, you were the lead inspector. What sort of things did we look at?

Joel Dalhouse

So, we looked at apprenticeships and we were looking at, especially from a distribution point of view. It's something that there isn't much of in the country, electrical distribution, the apprenticeships organisations that offer that. So, we had a look at that.

Cait Mellow

Okay, so what sort of things do you look at when you're looking at an apprenticeship inspection? Do you talk to apprentices?

Joel Dalhouse

Yes, that's quite an important part of our activities, is really trying to understand their experiences. We try to get underneath whether they are developing that knowledge, those skills and those behaviours that would help them to be very successful in the career that they've chosen.

Cait Mellow

Dan, what did you notice? What sort of experience was it?

Dan Tingle

It was interesting really because we were inspected against the old framework for another part of our business in July and then inspected in December on the new toolkit. I think that the new toolkit has similarities to the old framework, but there's a much bigger focus on making sure that we're supporting learners that have barriers to learning.

Cait Mellow

So inclusion is a big part of the new framework. How does that look on inspection?

Dan Tingle

It's a challenge. It's a challenge because it's first to understand what you mean by inclusion, what you mean by barriers to learning. I think the first thing is for organisations and providers to consider that and what comes into the scope of that. One of the things that we found is having really good data to be able to identify those learners. And then you can really dig into what that means and what supports available at each opportunity.

Cait Mellow

Denise, what do you think a look into inclusion on an FE inspection?

Denise Olander

So I think Dan's right, we've always looked at those with SEND and those who have particular barriers to learning. So that was very much a focus under the education inspection framework. But under the renewed framework, we now have inclusion as a whole evaluation area, which we've never had before. So we are, we're grading inclusion as a whole new evaluation area. And within that, it covers a wide range of learners and apprentices. So the toolkit is what we use to identify the criteria and the standards in which we judge the provider against. So we collect evidence against the criteria in the toolkit. And once we've collected that evidence, We then use the picture that we formed through evidence collection against the criteria in our handbook. So we hope that most providers will be at least at the expected standard. It's a really high bar. It's providers doing exactly what we would expect them to do using taxpayers money. and making sure that learners, and in this case apprentices, are receiving high quality education and training. In the inclusion evaluation area, we identify learners with SEND, those who are vulnerable. Quite often that's because of the financial situation that they find themselves in. Maybe they're from low-income families. And then there's a wide range of other factors which could mean that an apprentice or a learner have some barriers to learning, things such as known to social justice, known or previously known to social services, mental health issues.

Cait Mellow

Help me understand this, Dan. So the National Grid are an employer and a provider. How does that work?

Dan Tingle

It’s a challenge. At the National Grid, we offer apprenticeships in a range of areas. It may be some really technical, bespoke niche skills that we have into deliver what we do as an organisation, or it may be some of the more support function type roles that we have in the organisation, maybe like a finance role. We will use training providers where they have the expertise, but in areas where we are the experts, and typically that's in sort of high voltage electricity, then we will be the training provider for those programs. And it's a really good model that we've got in place now. So for our transmission business that we have, when we were inspecting in July, outstanding result that we got in that inspection was 20 years of outstanding.

Cait Mellow

Wow. So do you find that people who you have as apprentices, do they stick around? Is the National Grid one of those places where people just work there forever?

Dan Tingle

Yeah, so I'm in my 27th year. I started as an apprentice at National Grid. And it's always nice that when we introduce ourselves in meetings internally, I'm never the most experienced in the room. And so, yeah, so people do stay here for a long time. It's nice, I've been at National Bridge Training Centre for 20 years now. The people that I've seen in senior roles in the organisation that started as an apprentice as well, it's really positive to see those people.

Cait Mellow

Did you get a chance, Joel, to talk to people like that on an inspection?

Joel Dalhouse

Daniel and myself had a number of conversations about the apprenticeship, how it's been designed, the rationale behind why they offer the apprenticeships they offer, why they feel they're the best place to offer those apprenticeships, what they're hoping that their apprentices get from that. And we also speak to people that the apprentices work with in the work environment just to see and get an understanding of those skills that they're developing and how they really compare to what would be expected and to see if they are really benefiting in that business. So it's really important to speak to people within the organisation just to get that sense of those skills developed.

Cait Mellow

So I'm getting the feeling that it's not just, oh, we'd better have an apprentice just to sort of tick a box. You're genuinely committing to really seeing that these people or, you know, the young people in your schemes are sort of progressing, they know what's happening, they know where they're going, they're aiming for something that's concrete.

Dan Tingle

Apprenticeships are embedded right from our strategic workforce planning processes that we have in place. We know one, 3, 5, 10 years out what sort of workforce numbers that we're going to require as an organisation. And apprentices are at the heart of that to make sure that we've got the right level of individual joining the organisation. And linking back to the previous question about do people stay at National Grid? The answer is yes. And one of the reasons is that people know there are opportunities to develop. that may be in the original field that they were recruited against. So I joined as a transmission substation apprentice. There would have been opportunities to progress in that field of expertise. And I chose to move into a training centre and I've been fortunate to move into the roles I've got. And again, Joel's answer about talking to people that have been apprentices, again, it's really easy for us to be able to put senior leaders in front of an inspector during an inspection. And it's just nice that a lot of them were apprentices and they can talk about their experience and why they're still there. And that in itself showcases that people do develop a national grid.

Cait Mellow

Yeah, I can see how reassuring that would be if you're a young person who's just starting out. Somebody who, you know, was where you are now a long time ago is now got all sorts of opportunities, which is great.

Denise Olander

The difference between the original education inspection framework and the renewed inspection framework. The key difference is the introduction of the inclusion evaluation area. And when we were thinking about the design of the new toolkit and the methodology, the inspection methodology that sits behind that, we had a very clear vision about inclusion. because that inclusion evaluation area helps us to continue to put learners and apprentices first, because that's what we've always tried to do through our inspection work. But it's really shone a light on the work that providers do. And it's helping us to break down even further the barriers that some learners and apprentices experience. And by breaking down those barriers, we are raising the standards. And it's particularly for the disadvantaged and vulnerable because we want to enable them to thrive in their studies. And our focus on those as part of this renewed framework is really, we're already seeing that that's really helping them to do so. we look at how the provider identifies needs, provides timely support and reduces barriers to learning. What we're finding is the nature of inclusion lends itself really well to further education and skills providers because we can already see some of the great, innovative, dynamic work that providers do and have always done on behalf of their apprentices so that they get that access to the education, training and teaching that they need. We're hearing that they're feeling valued and that they belong and that links very nicely to what Dan was saying about people. people staying within the organisation because they do feel valued and they do feel like they belong. And then as a result of that, we're finding that they then thrive in their learning. And really importantly, they achieve the apprenticeship and the qualifications that sit beneath that, at least in line with their peers. So in some of the very best providers, where the support is so effective, they actually achieve at a higher rate, the standard of work is higher, they progress through that apprenticeship at a much faster pace. So it's our opportunity really in furthering education skills to celebrate the great work that we knew all along, didn't we Joel, that our providers were doing on behalf of their learners and apprentices, whether they're 16 to 18 or whether they're studying an apprenticeship as an adult. and we see people studying apprenticeships well into their 30s, 40s, et cetera. So the most important thing for us is that the provider has that opportunity to show us and for us then to celebrate and validate the great work that they're doing. And we, as I mentioned previously, we focused on learners who had SEND or maybe were in receipt of high needs funding. And what we mean by that is that their SEN needs are so significant that they get additional funding to help them to study. And we've always focused on those. But under this framework, we've broadened our focus. So we always say to a provider, you tell us who are your apprentices or learners who are vulnerable or disadvantaged. Who are they for you? Because they will often vary according to the provider. But to try and be helpful in our toolkit, we've listed a range of learners who may find themselves with barriers to learning. So those who are socio-economically disadvantaged, they may have previously been on free school meals in the past six years, or they may be from low-income families. I mentioned those with SEND and those who receive high needs funding, or any other additional support to help them with their learning. They may have an education health and care plan, those who are known or previously known to social care, including those who are under the age of 18 in care and care leavers, those who are known to the youth justice service, and then those who have other barriers to learning and or their wellbeing. So they may have previously been not in education, employment and training, or they could be people who do not currently have a level 2 in English and or mathematics. So that's our starting point. of identification of those learners who may be vulnerable or disadvantaged. But we always say to Dan as the nominee, you tell us who those people are. And then when Dan will tell us who those people are, where they're studying, when they're studying, and then Joel as the lead inspector will use that information to do what we call a case sampling exercise. So we make sure that when we talk to learners, look at learners work, look at apprentices in the workplace. We make sure that the learners that Dan and the apprentices that Dan told us about are within the cohort that we look at so that we can make a comparison between those who the provider or Dan has identified as needing support compared to those who don't. And that's when we can make that comparison about the progress they make in their learning, the knowledge that they gain over time, their skills development, the standard of their work, how they contribute to the workplace. So we're constantly using that information to find out from them and their employer or their manager or workplace coach how well they're progressing against those who are not identified by the provider. And we do that really carefully because some people may find themselves from one of those categories I mentioned, but not need support. So it's really important that we aren't labelling those people. We use the information to begin the conversation with Dan. Dan will then say, these are the people that we're providing additional support to. This is what it looks like. This is how we assess them. This is how we're monitoring how effective that support is. And then we, or Joel, sorry, as the lead inspector, will make sure that we include them in our sample of people that we talk to, because we never get a chance to speak to every apprentice or every learner. So it's very much a sampling people, but using the information that Dan gives us to make sure that those people are within the sample that we choose.

Cait Mellow

So it sounds to me, Joel and Dan, like it's a sort of, it's not being done to you, this inspection, it's being done with you. Would you agree with that?

Joel Dalhouse

Well, I would hope Dan would agree, yeah. Yes, but I would say so. I think it's definitely working together. Right from the planning call, we sit down and we discuss the learners that are identified as those who have barriers to their learning. We then have a look at those within the apprenticeships in this case and then select a few which would give that sample of how that's working within the provider. So I'm not sure how Dan feels about it.

Dan Tingle

Yeah, 100%. From that planning call, the first planning call, the inspection is working together. So myself and Joel worked really closely together. And I spoke to Joel on a number of occasions about us wanting to showcase what we wanted to showcase as a provider. And that relationship is key to be able to do that.

Cait Mellow

Currently, the sort of the economic outlook for young people is tricky. Why do we think that an apprenticeship or training, in-house training with an organisation is a good option?

Denise Olander

When we talk to apprentices, whether it be with the provider that they're studying with or in the workplace, many of them prefer that style of learning. So it's around about 80%, what we call on the job at work, where you're learning at work and you're working and being paid. And then it's around 20% of their time where they come off the job at work and have dedicated study, training, skills development time. And for many, not just young people, but for many apprentices, they really like that approach where they are working, studying, learning in the workplace, receiving really great coaching, and they get the opportunity to achieve a qualification to whatever level they're working at. but they're doing it through the workplace with some studying and training when they're not at work, or maybe they're at work, but they're in a training centre. So it's an increasingly popular way of learning and achieving qualifications. We know it's a key priority for the government, but most importantly, it's a way of learning and working that suits the individual. They like the structure that the workplace gives them. They like the support and the coaching and the development and what is quite often a secure job at the end of it. Now in Dan's case, these people are already employees, Dan, aren't they? But for many of the apprentices that we meet, it may not necessarily be a secure job that they're in at the moment, but they're hoping that it will lead to that or it may lead to a secure job with another employer.

Cait Mellow

And I guess it's also a supportive kind of place to be with lots of other people who are in the same situation as you with a chance to make some friends and support each other.

Dan Tingle

Yeah, definitely. I know when I started my apprenticeship a long time ago, that I still know every individual that was on that programme, still got relationships with some of them that were on that programme. And that's typical for any sort of cohort of apprentice that is probably around in the UK, not just National Grid. But like Denise said, said, the practicalities of doing an apprenticeship, learning on the job is really good. Getting the experience that you need to do that first post role is really good. And getting the benefits of an employee whilst they're on programme. I know from personal experience at National Grid provides so many benefits.

Cait Mellow

I want to have a little plug for if you're a parent or a young person who's looking for an apprenticeship, please do have a look at our reports on the local offers in your area because they're really good, they're not just for the people who are at the college or the setting, they're for parents and young people to have a look at and to make sure that apprenticeship is going to be right for you or your child. There's lots and lots of information in our new style reports and they allow you to focus on something which might be really important to you.

Dan Tingle

Quick sort of appreciation for the work the inspectors are doing at the moment. It feels like the inspectors really do care about your well-being. Not that it feels like, inspectors really do care about the well-being of the staff that have been inspected. The nominee probably in particular, but it was evident that those past two inspections we've had, it really is clear that people do care. If I've just got time for one quick anecdote. For the inspection that we had in July, when I had the planning call, I'll not name the lead inspector, but she asked me if there were any reasons why we couldn't be inspected. And I made a joke and said, does Oasis count? because I'd got a ticket to Oasis that week. And we kind of had a little joke about it. And then when we got into the inspection itself, the senior HMI came along for one day and said, oh, so you're the one that is supposed to be going to Oasis. I said, yeah, I've forgotten about it now. It's gone. I'm quite happy to miss it. And she said, absolutely not. In no circumstances are you missing that. We'll finish everything up early today. We brought forward the final meeting of the day. And that happened because people cared about my wellbeing that it was a big thing for me to miss. So yeah, no, I just wanted to say thank you.

Cait Mellow

All that remains for me to do is say thank you very much to Joel, Denise and Dan. And don't forget to have a look at our reports if you're looking for an apprenticeship. They're really helpful. Join us again soon on Ofsted Talks.

Want to know more about Ofsted's renewed education inspections? In this episode, Lee Owston (National Director, Education), Lee Elliott (Assistant Regional Director, North East, Yorkshire and Humber), Jayne Coward (Deputy Director, Early Years) and Andrea Dill-Russell (Senior HMI, Further Education and Skills) explore the key changes to education inspections and what Ofsted is hearing on the ground from our pilots and inspections now they have started. 

Transcript

Jonathan Bennett: Hello and welcome to another episode of Ofsted Talks, the Ofsted podcast. And today we're going to be talking about our renewed framework for inspection. Inspections started in November, and we're going to explore some of the changes, and also what we're hearing on the ground from our pilot inspections, as well as the actual inspections now that they have started. And who better to talk us through all of this than Lee Owston, Lee Elliott, Andrea Dill-Russell and Jayne Coward. I'll let you all introduce yourselves and your roles, and let's start with you. Lee Owston.

Lee Owston: Hello, great to be here. I'm Lee Owston. I'm one of His Majesty's inspectors, and I'm Ofsted’s National Director of Education.

Lee Elliott: Hi everyone. I'm Lee Elliott. I'm the Assistant Regional Director for Education in the North East, Yorkshire and Humber.

Jayne Coward: Hi everyone. I'm Jayne coward. I am Deputy Director for early years regulatory policy and practice. Nice to be here.

Andrea Dill-Russell: Hello everyone. I'm Andrea Dill-Russell. I'm Senior His Majesty's Inspector in the policy team for further education and skills and teacher development.

Jonathan Bennett: Great. Thank you all. So, as we said, we will talk a bit about what we have seen on the ground as these inspections went through the pilot stages, and now they are live and we're inspecting. But let's just remind ourselves of some of the key changes to this renewed framework with you, Lee.

Lee Owston: Absolutely, and for those of you that have heard me talk before, I normally sum it up by saying the changes are essentially about making inspection look different, but also making it feel different too. So, we reviewed not only what our inspection materials make inspection look at, but also how we go about collecting evidence, because that's the bit that people often remember the most, because that's how we interact with them, that's how we have conversations with them at the point of inspection. And if I was to boil it down to the five key areas, I suppose, we've changed toolkits and the evaluation areas that we look at. We've changed how we report so we've introduced report cards. There's a new five-point grading scale, and of course, we've also more recently published our work around what our monitoring program would look like in schools, further education and skills. So, I just take each of those in turn and give you kind of a snapshot of what those changes mean in practice. And of course, I'm sure all of you will be clicking and downloading and looking at our toolkits, operating guides and inspection information documents to get more detail. But if I start with the toolkits and the evaluation areas, this was a replacement to our kind of framework and our school inspection, further education and skills inspection handbooks, early years inspection handbooks that we had previously. And it all started with the question, you know, what makes great provision? What are the component parts that allow fantastic early years settings, schools in all of their types, or indeed post-16 provision to do the job that they do. And of course, that's where we arrived in terms of the evaluation areas, whether that's around curriculum, teaching and training, whether that's in early years, around welfare and well-being, or indeed in schools, whether that's about attendance and behaviour. So we broke it down into those separate elements, and through our toolkits, exemplified what different grades look like for each of those areas. It therefore is the focal point for inspection. Those inspection toolkits show you what we'll focus on, how we'll evaluate and how we'll grade. And I suppose there's probably not a lot there that surprises people. You know, it is all of the things that you would expect great provision to be doing and to have in place, whether that's around leadership and governance or how well children, learners achieve. But I think the newer element is around inclusion. And of course, if you look at our toolkits, you'll see that there is a new inclusion evaluation area, but also, it's spread right across all of our other evaluation areas. So what does it mean to have an inclusive curriculum or inclusive teaching practices, so on and so forth across all of our remits? And just to give you a snapshot by inclusion, we mean, what is it that leaders are doing to help break down those barriers to learning and well-being, and that might be around children who are from disadvantaged backgrounds. It might be those who have special educational needs and or disabilities, or indeed, it might be those known to social care, so something that we've really helped to push to the front. And actually, if you listen to Sir Martyn as our Chief Inspector, you'll hear him talk about inclusion being at the heart of this renewed framework. So that was toolkits and evaluation areas. And as I said, please do download those if you want more detail on our website. Now linked to that is obviously how we report and this is one of the biggest changes, I would say, in probably our 30 plus year history as an organisation, we have fundamentally redesigned how we communicate what we find on inspection to predominantly parents and carers. So, our new report cards combine at a glance grades with the narrative summary of the strengths and the areas for improvement in wherever we've been. And we kind of tested lots of different types with parents and carers. And of course, what we've ended up with is something that allows you as a parent or carer to kind of click on what interests you most, what is of most importance to you in helping you decide where your child goes in terms of their next stage or their next setting. So, when those are published in January - so our first batch will be published in January - I'm sure people will find those far more helpful in terms of providing the detail that they want about their child's education. Now within those report cards, you'll obviously see a very different grading scale. From our testing, our piloting and our early inspections, we know the five-point grading scale and how it differs from what's gone before is something that we really need to help people understand and explain. So, first thing I want to say is the five-point grading scale cannot in any way be compared with the old grades. Can't be compared with the kind of four words that we've known from the past. It's a different approach to inspection. It's a new way of reporting. We wanted to change the culture of inspection, and in doing that, we started by changing the language that we use, and obviously that all came back to the words we used for evaluation and for grading. So, for example, you cannot equate the new exceptional grade with an outstanding grade that perhaps you've received previously, the two are not an automatic crossover. Equally, good in terms of the old system doesn't automatically equate with expected or strong. They are new grades with new standards, and importantly, those standards are aligned to, particularly the expected standard, with everything that providers are expected to do, whether that's written into statute, whether that's professional standards or non-statutory guidance. So everything in the expected standard has been crafted around everything that a provider is expected to do. And it's a high bar, because one of the things we've also introduced is this idea of a secure fit, so you have to, through inspection evidence, gathering, meet every one of the standards before you can be graded as the expected standard. And that's a shift from what we've known before, which was obviously a best fit. And a best fit, it was us learning from the Big Listen around inconsistency, and one of the things we unpicked was that a best fit inevitably allowed some institutions to achieve a grade on having some of the things that we'd written down, but not the others. And equally, the institution down the road could still get the same grade, but have a different mix of criteria, and that led to, you know, inconsistencies we heard through the Big Listen. So we've removed that, and now we've gone with a secure fit, which means you have to have all of the standards before you can be graded that particular standard. And

then the other thing just to touch upon is the needs attention grade. And I want to be really clear with everybody that's listening, that needs attention is simply an indication that there's work to be done to reach the expected standard. It's not a fail, but it does highlight where issues need to be addressed before they become even bigger problems that might need urgent improvement in the future.

And then the last thing on my list of five was around monitoring. And again, if you want to look at some of our guidance around monitoring for schools and further education and skills in particular, then you can download it from our website, but we've redesigned the system for monitoring and those two remits, particularly where there's a need for where we've perhaps graded needs attention or urgent improvement, we'll design a program and go back and offer, obviously, leaders reassurance that they're on the right track and improvement is happening, but also reassure parents and carers that obviously things are getting better. And

where we see those improvements, we'll be able to recognise them more quickly and change a grade on a report card there and then at the point of monitoring without leaders and others having to wait for a full inspection, 2,3,4 years down the line in previous models before their hard work has been recognised. So, plenty more I could say about monitoring, but I'll leave it there for now and just say there's plenty that we've reformed. And of course, in making all of those changes based on the Big Listen. We also want to make sure that the intention we all had in our minds in making improvements, or the reality that we see on the ground through inspection.

Jonathan Bennett: Thanks, Lee. And just to pick up on a few of the things there, because as you and I go out and about and we listen quite a lot, get a lot of questions in. And I think the secure fit and best fit change is one that we get quite a lot of questions around, so it's good to get the clarity on what that actually means. One of the things we've also heard, though, is that with the toolkits, that it's not just a sort of schools toolkit, in an early years toolkit, it actually breaks down into a lot more detail, doesn't it depending on which part of that sector you're working in?

Lee Owston: It does, you're right. So, it's different by design. So not only have we made sure that the early years toolkit speaks to the early years and schools and further education and skills, but even within each remit, we know there's a vast variety of different provision types, and we've made sure that at the start of every evaluation area within each of those remit toolkits, we talk about the differences, for example, between a childminder and registered or group based provision in early years. Or, in schools, we talk about the difference between a primary and secondary at a very kind of high level, or indeed, UTCs or small schools or specialist provision, where there are slight nuances to how we might go about gathering our evidence. And further education and skills, we try and cover the four main provision types, but even within those, there'll be differences, because we've tried really hard to build more of a provider's context into the way in which we go about gathering evidence and, of course, evaluating them and awarding a grade.

Jonathan Bennett: And the other thing that's probably important to remember, we still get quite a lot of questions about it, is that when you talk about the read across and that there isn't one between the set of grades and the previous ones, the main difference, there isn't just one grade now, is it? So it's not, you won't get just exceptional or strong standard. It's dependent on the different evaluation areas.

Lee Owston: It is, and that's something that state-funded schools saw the earliest back in September 2024 - we removed the overall effectiveness grade at the request of the Secretary of State. With the launch of the renewed framework, we've just made sure that every other remit is kind of brought into line. So, we've removed those headline grades, those overall effectiveness grades, that captured an awful lot under one banner and can often hide the separate strengths and the even better ifs or the next steps. And now we've made it far more nuanced, as I said earlier, by enabling parents and carers predominantly to focus on what matters most to them, but even when they've selected that, for example, attendance and behaviour in schools, to then see a narrative description alongside a side a grade.

Jonathan Bennett: And of course, the first lot of report cards are going to be published this month. So, let's go over to you Lee Elliott - I'm sorry to be using surnames but with two Lees I have to. You've been on some of the school's inspections, and what have we sort of heard from the pilots and these early inspections? You know, what is working well, where have we had to make tweaks?

Lee Elliott: Yeah, absolutely. And it's been really interesting for me in my role to be out leading an inspection, and out quality assuring inspections of late and Lee referenced earlier on in the discussion, inspections looking and feeling different. And I can certainly say with confidence for me, from my point of view as a lead inspector, it certainly felt different in a really positive way, and the feedback that I've had from head teachers and other senior leaders when I've quality assured inspections of late, it's been quite similar as well. And I think what struck me the most, I suppose we've always had school leaders at the heart of inspection in terms of that dialog etc, but what struck me the most with the renewed inspections is the amount of high quality ongoing professional dialog between leaders in the inspection team and that sort of greater sense of shared insights. And I suppose what I mean by that are those regular opportunities for leaders to hear from the team about what they're seeing and what the emerging evidence tells us, as well as, of course, opportunities for leaders to show inspectors aspects of the school that work well and aspects that they're particularly proud of, I suppose, as well. And that regular dialog for me as a lead inspector really allowed me to get a detailed understanding of the school and to hear from the head teacher about the impact of their work on pupils learning, and that dialog, it starts right from the off, doesn't it? You know, that notification call, when we make the call to the school, we've made a change, and we're trying to endeavour now to have that notification call via teams or Google meet, you know, a video call, rather than across the telephone, and that helps to build that constructive working relationship, that professional dialog from the off. Being able to see the head teacher and senior leaders on the call was really helpful to me to establish that sort of professional discussion from the off, but also logistically, when it came to things like organising and co-constructing the timetable, we were able to do that together on screen and populate it together, and that really made a difference and helped us, quite literally, hit the ground running as an inspection team and as a school. I'm not sure if that was a similar thing for you, Jayne and Andrea, it certainly looked and felt different to me in that regard.

Jayne Coward: Yeah, I'd say with that, with my early years hat on, absolutely, I think that planning calls been a bit of a revelation, actually, and I agree with lots of what you've said, it's just a really good opportunity to establish that positive professional working relationship ahead of the inspector relying on site and providers have told us that they've really welcomed that opportunity to talk about the context of their setting, to set out what their strengths are as well as what they're working on. I think they've had real confidence to be to have those open and transparent conversations right from the start. And feedback that we've had is that they feel inspections are done with them rather than to them. So, Lee talked about inspections that look and feel different, and that's really hard to demonstrate until you're actually out there doing the pilots and doing the live inspection. So, I think by the time the inspector walks through the door on the first day of the inspection, it can get off to really great start, because this is those really positive relationships, and providers have told us that they felt listened to, which I think is really important. Have you had similar Andrea?

Andrea Dill-Russell: Yeah. I mean, in particular, in further education and skills, Lee's already outlined the sort of the variety and range of the providers that we inspect, but I think in particular the fact that from the time that we sort of make that notification call, you know, on teams, you can sort of meet with people in a much more collaborative process. Part Two of the planning call, in particular, where you just giving the senior leaders and the nominee the time to talk about their different types of provision, the different types of curriculum and the learners and apprentices that they're working with has been really important, and the fact that lead inspectors have taken the time to listen and understand the context and then worked collaboratively to then sort of agree the inspection focused areas, part of the sort of the final, final part of the call, rather than what's tended to happen previously, when you'd go in with a preconceived idea about what you were going to look at, and obviously that's a significant change, and very much from what you said, Jayne, that sort of repeatedly as I've led inspections team inspections and been out and QA them that that providers are, I would say, overall, saying that they feel like they're being listened to. And then when we do the orientation meeting on the first day of inspection, where the lead inspector is then reflecting back what they've said to the rest of the team, they're finding that really quite powerful, because it does demonstrate that the lead inspectors have understood and then have used that to really inform the inspection team about what the inspection methodology, the activities are going to look like, but it's all been set around their context and what they've and what they've told us about, which has been, as I say, I just think really, really powerful. I think the interesting thing from FES, and it would be interesting interesting to see what Lee's view is, sorry, Lee Elliot, not Lee Owston – or Lee Owston might have a view - is that we've always had nominees in FES, and so it was like, well, actually, this might not be that much of a difference for us, but I think what we've definitely seen, it strengthened the role of the nominee, because they feel even more so they're part of the team. They've got that sort of collaborative work. And therefore, throughout the inspection, as the inspection is evolving, it's definitely an evolving piece now, rather than you know that that piece is finished, and then we'll move on to the next piece. But they're part of those ongoing conversations, through reflection as to so we know where do we need to move the inspection team now, now obviously we sort of seen that we've celebrated or validated, or know where things might look sort of like slightly differently or better, and that's helped us sort of move, I think, through inspections, so that there is that ongoing collaborative work that doesn't just take place at planning. So, I don't know how others are found through the introduction of the nominee, I'd be interested to know really.

Lee Elliott: Yeah, it's a really interesting point, isn't it, Andrea, and I've seen it working really well on FES inspections as well, and was interested to see how it transfers to school inspections. The inspection that I led, you know, we make it really clear to school leaders that the nominee is there to support them, but they absolutely won't be disadvantaged if they don't choose to have a nominee. And on my pilot inspection, the school didn't want to have a nominee, because they said that the person they would have nominated to carry out that role would have been the deputy head, and the deputy head was going to be in on the meetings. And it worked really well for that school during that inspection. But equally, I've seen inspections where the nominee has made a real impact, because we know schools are busy places, and in many schools, especially some of the primary schools that have been in on inspection, you know, quite often they might get a parent wants to speak the head teacher unannounced, and schools have got to operate as normal, even when inspectors are there, and that nominee role just helps ease the sort of load on senior leaders. The head teacher helps the inspection team work closely with a really knowledgeable nominee who knows the school inside out, and they can help provide additional evidence, or they can speak to staff if there's an amendment to the timetable. So, I've seen it work in both ways, without a nominee really well, but with a nominee really well. And I think it just gives schools that additional sort of flexibility to be able to work well with inspection teams.

Andrea Dill-Russell: It does show that, doesn’t it, we always said that we would tailor inspections under renewed framework, and actually we are definitely doing that and fully in line with the operating guide, which is really important.

Jonathan Bennett: I was going to say coming to you, Jayne, how is that translating in early years, which, again, is very, very different.

Jayne Coward: So, so again, similar to what Lee said, I mean, we set out with an expectation that for the childminders, or very small provision, we likely wouldn't have a nominee, particularly for a childminder where they're often operating on their own and they are the person that knows the children best. But like Lee and Andrea have said, when you're inspecting a larger, more complex nursery based provision, then absolutely we've seen through the pilots and the live inspections where that nominee role has worked well to have that kind of coordination and be that link with the inspection team. So to have the flexibility to use it where it's appropriate to use it has been really important. But I think one of the key changes we found in early years is it's the manager having or the deputy, whoever the person is, that's going to come around with you, them being there and seeing at the same time as the lead inspector, what's happening within a provision has been like gold dust, because you can have the opportunity in the moment to say, you know, is this typical of practice that we've seen in this room, and I think that's been really important in terms of having that shared experience and then being able to move on and have those collaborative conversations about what you've seen together, rather than kind of coming back and saying, Oh, well, I saw this. It's much more helpful when you when you see things together, and you can have those in the moment discussions.

Jonathan Bennett: And all this talk of nominees is a good opportunity to plug our nominee training videos, which are on our Ofsted YouTube channel. So, if once you have thought of or decided who your nominee should be, then that training is available. Just search for Ofsted on YouTube and you'll see the training and it's, it's per remit as well. The things that you mentioned, and what I was going to ask you, because we get a lot of questions about, is the planning call. It's obviously, it's the sort of the starting point of the relationship that you talk about, and this more collaborative approach. From having been on planning calls now, what would you say to leaders, or how would you make sure giving them advice now on this, on this podcast, that they make the most of the planning, what can they be doing? Because we are getting a lot of questions from leaders that say, you know, what do I need to prepare, what do I need to bring? So, in your view, when planning calls have gone well, what have leaders done?

Lee Elliott: Really interesting question, and something that I was going to touch on in terms of inspections feeling different and looking different, because in the past, you know, an inspector would have done their prep. They would have had a look at curriculum plans, from websites and so on, and you would have had a sense of what the day one timetable was going to look like. And you might have pre-populated a timetable, 90% of the timetable before making that call. On my pilot inspection, I could safely say maybe 80% of the timetable was blank, because what I wanted to do with the head teacher in that notification call was listen to the head teacher talk to me about the context of their school, talk to me about the work that they've done since the last inspection, and talk to me also about aspects of the school that they felt inspectors could see and might be able to celebrate. And so together, we really co-constructed that timetable and populated the timetable with learning walks to see aspects of provision that the school were proud of, to see aspects of provision where they started working of late and were seeing early impact. And that was really that that sort of collaborative approach. And it was interesting to hear Andrea say inspectors were hearing from providers, say that inspections were being done with and not to, and that they were feeling listened to. And I think that notification call was really key to be able to have that equal partnership to construct the timetable, to get a sense of that context and the uniqueness of the school for me.

Jonathan Bennett: So leaders should come prepared, sort of to think about and talk about how they want to, to explore their setting review on the day.

Lee Elliott: Yeah, I don't think it's a sense of coming prepared, because leaders know their school inside out anyway. It's just making sure that they're able to articulate to us in that time available what it is that works well, you know, what they're proud of and what they want us to see as inspectors, so that we, by the end of the two day process, we get to see that inside out.

Lee Owston: Can I just jump in because that's just made me reflect on one of those other questions I often get asked, which is around self-evaluation. And it links to what Lee was just saying there, because people automatically assume that by self-evaluation we mean extensive document and for the record, that is not what inspectors expect to see. We're not returning to the days of, you know, lengthy SEFs, particularly in the schools and schools space. For me, self-evaluation is a verb. It's a process. It's a process of knowing about your provider, your institution. As Lee’s just said, everything that you do really well, all of the things that are on your desk as a leader, because you're dealing with them now, because you know a school or a setting, or a provider as a living, breathing entity, isn't it all. It's always evolving and moving forward. And of course, inspection therefore, is about starting with a conversation. It's not starting by a sharing of documents that we then go away and separately unpick. So, my one bit of advice to people would be, don't see self-evaluation as an onerous task of constantly filling in a document and updating it, because that's not what we want to see. We just want a conversation from the very first point of inspection all the way throughout the two, three, however many days we might be on site, because essentially, we want to help you celebrate, validate, and with fresh eyes, highlight the things that you might not have on your radar yet, but would really support you in that continuous improvement process.

Andrea Dill-Russell: Yeah, and I can I just sort of add there that, I think what sort of sort of part of that reflection, for me, was the fact that we sort of no longer do deep dives, which really did sort of shoehorn you into looking at a subject in particular – well, in FES anyway – because you're listening to what leaders are saying from a self-assessment point of view, basically what they know about, what's going well, what they're working on etc, means that you can really open out the inspection focused areas to be about themes, to be about groups, and not just about subjects, which means actually, they're more valuable for providers, because they're getting more sort of helpful feedback around what is working well. So, you're doing the validation, but then you can highlight sort of potentially areas that they might want to sort of continue to work on or improve, particularly where, if you're looking at certain groups of learners that are on a construction course, may well be doing really well, but if a similar group of learners are on hospitality through that sort of curriculum is not working quite so well that inspectors now through those sort of professional conversations can talk about why that may or may not be sort of happening. So it's actually more valuable for the provider because they're getting more helpful feedback through those conversations and really sort of like, sort of understanding, you know, what is working well and what's working less well means that the inspection focus areas are just more helpful fo sort of the improvement, for providers, sort of more overall.

Jayne Coward: I was just going to build on that, Andrea, I agree. And you know, we've been out and about doing lots of webinars and presentations, obviously to make sure everybody feels comfortable with the with the new inspection toolkits. And that's the question we probably get asked most often is, what can we do so that we're in the best place we can be when you come and it absolutely is giving them the confidence that they know their children the best. You said that about school leave, if I go into a nurse nursery or a child minder setting, they are the people that know their children best. And if they're doing what's right for their children within that setting, particularly the most vulnerable and disadvantaged, then they'll be doing what's right for Ofsted. And I think that planning call is a really good conversation starter. It's around half an hour. Don't want providers to think that they have to cram everything that they know about their setting into that 30 minutes. It's absolutely to get those key highlights around the context, what the setting feel they are doing well, what areas they're working on. So absolutely, we can co-construct those areas of inspection focus, but then we've got the time on inspection to really get underneath, to have those professional conversations, to observe the practice and the interactions, to talk to staff, to do all of those lovely activities, which, you know, if you've read the operating guide, you'll get more detail around. It's a scene setter, but really important for me, it's around establishing that really good professional working relationship from the outset. So have confidence in yourselves and what you know about your setting, because that will put you in a really good place for the inspection.

Jonathan Bennett: I like what you said there about the sort of the co-constructing, because it is a conversation, isn't it? It's not you as the inspector saying what you want to look at or just leaving it entirely, it's working out the best way to inspect that particular setting between the setting leader and the inspector.

Jayne Coward: Absolutely.

Jonathan Bennett: So I could talk about this for ages, but we are mindful of making sure that we don't stretch into sort of a three hour marathon podcast. But I think we will probably come back to this topic as inspections continue and we continue to learn. On that basis, Lee Owston, I just want to sort of finish with you. How is the process of inspection going to continue into January and beyond, because it is new for us as Ofsted right now, but it's going to be new for schools and for early years settings and for colleges and everyone else in further education for quite a while to come.

Lee Owston: It is, and we're very conscious of that. Depending on when your inspection is due, you might be coming to this in one year, two year, three years or more down the down the line. So, we have a series of materials. And if you go to our YouTube channel, there's a series of videos there, you can see lots of our webinar material that we delivered in September and October time to help people understand what inspection meant specifically for them, and we have webinars for broad range of kind of provision types. And of course, as we learn more about inspections, we'll continue to put other materials out there that we know will be supportive. For example, we've got a recent video, haven't we, about explaining the difference between the old grading system and the five-point grading scale. Some material around that number one question I get asked, ‘when will I be inspected’? And of course, across the spring and summer, we'll continue to build the number of inspections that we deliver so that we get back to business as usual as quickly as possible. However, particularly from myself, coming from a policy perspective, we're always keen to listen and learn and adapt, whether that's tweaking our materials, providing further comms or clarity to the sector, or indeed, further bits of training for our inspectors and all of that, or most of that you will be able to find with full transparency on the usual channels when you wish to see it. And ultimately, we've also commissioned an independent review, and that independent review will continue over the next couple of years to report back to us on what we're finding. So again, we can learn and we can adapt and celebrate what you've heard today in terms of where the policy intention is having its intended effect and making inspection feel and look much better than it has before.

Jonathan Bennett: Great. Thank you. So, I want to thank you all for your time. I hope those of you who have been listening and found that useful. As Lee mentioned, you can either go on to the Ofsted gov.uk page where we have a whole host of blogs and more coming and information around inspection, or the Ofsted YouTube channel where we also have all of those webinars and various different bits of video explainers, talking through the different aspects of inspection, depending on what kind of setting you're in. We're usually at a lot of events as well. So, if you know that Ofsted are there, come and speak to us on the stand. We always have experts there, and you can ask us questions. We're always happy to help. And obviously we're all on all of our social channels as well. So we're on X, on LinkedIn and on Facebook, so look us up, there's more information constantly on those channels as well. So Lee Owston, Lee Elliott, Andrea Dill-Russell and Jayne Coward, thank you very much for your time, and until the next Ofsted talks, I'll bid you farewell.

Thinking about becoming an apprentice? Is someone you know looking to their future? In this episode we look at apprenticeships, focusing on the North West of England and speak to an apprentice at the University Hospitals of Liverpool group. 

Hi everyone, and welcome to this edition of Ofsted Talks. I'm Briony Balsom and this time we're exploring all things apprenticeships. I'm joined here today by Lynn Masterson, who's Vice Principal of commercial and growth at Hugh Baird College in Liverpool, Lisa Daniels, who's currently an apprentice on foundation degree through Hugh Baird but based at University Hospitals of Liverpool group, Fiona O'Shea, also at Hugh Baird, and by Ruth Stammers, one of our senior His Majesty's Inspectors of Further Education and Skills here at Ofsted. Just to set us off, Ruth, we probably think we know, but do we? What is an apprenticeship?

Ruth: Okay, so for those who might not know what an apprenticeship is, essentially it's a job where you learn alongside your job. So, they're open to anybody from the age of sixteen onwards. So we see apprentices, obviously quite young ones coming out of school, and we see apprentices retraining into different careers, well into their sixties, sometimes even their seventies, believe it or not. A kind of standard apprenticeship is usually either one day a week in college and four days a week in work, or with a with a training provider for one day. Or sometimes they're on a block release program, so they might be in work for a number of weeks and then go on a block of training for, say, a week or two at a college or training provider. Apprentices get paid a normal wage, so there is a basic apprenticeship wage, which is quite low, let's be honest. A lot of employers do pay their apprentices more than the standard apprenticeship wage, which is really important. And then there's other apprenticeships that actually are quite highly paid. So we've got apprentices from level two, which can be a lot of the kind of construction trades, automotive, healthcare, early years, those kind of entry level jobs right up to apprenticeships at level seven, which are senior leaders. And solicitors - really high level apprenticeships. There has been a little bit of change to funding recently, so some of those level seven apprenticeships are no longer going to be funded by the government but lots of the lower level ones are. And the reason for that really is, is to try and attract people into some of those entry level jobs, the level two and three apprenticeships, so that those who are out of the job market currently or furthest from the job market through unemployment, have got a route into employment with training as well, and and hopefully a long standing career alongside that.

Briony: I mean, Ruth has described an enormous breadth in apprenticeships. So presumably there is no such thing as a typical apprentice.

Lynn: No there isn't. Apprentices can come from many different backgrounds, very different circumstances. So, you know, we can sort of have an apprentice who will come from school, who's maybe made the decision that they don't want to pursue an A-level, uh, or they just want to end their time at school, and they're looking to find themselves at a career for life. There'll be opportunities where people will maybe be thinking further forward than just how they can earn money now. So there will also be people who maybe want to retrain, who've been in a job that they feel they'd like to gain a skill in something else so they can be different ages. You can as as Ruth has just said, you can have apprentices that will start at sixteen, and you can have apprentices that will also go up to, um, in the sixties or 70s. So there's no such thing. It's a common misconception that apprentices are young people leaving school. That is not the case. And a lot of people we find now are opting for apprenticeships just so that they don't have a level of debt as they're making their studies, because there's such a variety of apprenticeships now. You've got a big choice.

Briony: So you've mentioned misconceptions there. And I think, you know, do you find that there are some common misconceptions and misunderstandings about what an apprenticeship and therefore what an apprentice is?

Lynn: A lot of people have a misconception that when you're an apprentice, you're basically doing jobs like making the tea on a site. That is absolutely not the case because apprenticeships have changed significantly. What most apprenticeships you will find will have they'll be released for usually a day to attend college or a training provider. You can deliver actually in the workplace to an apprentice. You don't have to come in to training. There is a set programme of training and everybody is usually allocated a mentor so that as you're learning, you've got somebody alongside you who can give you that guidance as well as the work. So employers play a large part within apprenticeships just to make sure that that the people who are apprentices are gaining those skills and they're getting the experience they need to enable them to do that job at the end of their apprenticeship and probably an increase in their pay as their skills have increased.

Briony: Yeah, so I'm already fishing out from both what you and Ruth have said some enormous benefits of, um, both being an apprentice and taking on apprentices. What would you say are the key sort of bonuses for an individual to be in, to be an apprentice and take on an apprenticeship?

Lynn: The benefits for being an apprentice would be to earn as you learn, so you immediately start to earn money. You're actually not just learning or gaining skills. When you go into college or your training provider, you are actually gaining those skills every day. And that's set you head and shoulders above anybody who is just coming and doing that and going and going into a training environment. You can demonstrate those skills by the end of your apprenticeship training. And I just think it's, it's an all round better way to gain experience and to be able to actually prove that you can do that, be assured that you can do the job at the end of it.

Briony: Yeah. Proven was what sprang to mind. You're proven in the workplace – Ruth?

Ruth: Yeah. So I was just going to add, I think Lynn might have said earlier, but this one's massive, really is. Um, if you are an apprentice doing a degree apprenticeship as well, you have no student debt at all. So, you know, people coming out of A-levels or BTECs going to university, um, are paying their fees, which I think are nine and a half thousand a year now, aren't they? They've just gone up again. Um, and with an apprenticeship it's entirely free to the individual. So it's completely funded by, by the government and/or the employer. Um, so that that's a massive bonus to anybody rather than someone who's going to a full time university program. And as well as that, they're getting the hands on experience. While any apprentice really, um, at any level, is getting hands on experience and developing, you know, life skills, time management, decision making, increasing confidence, you know, working with others, learning to work in a team, All things that you can put on on your CV that are really valuable moving through your career, which is just huge for young people really, or anybody going into the workplace.

Briony: Huge number. And I'm looking at it from the other side. Um, now. So what would you say, uh, coming to you first Lynn because you must have conversations with employers about this all the time. What are the main what do you picture as the main benefits of taking on an apprentice?

Lynn: You are helping a young person to gain the skills that they need to forge a career for life. You are giving people a chance and opportunity. Some hope that they are going to be able to have a - you're helping them with their lifestyle in the future, and you are supporting them to to gain the skills that they need to to obviously go into employment. What we find with a lot of employers is that a young person will come and they'll be doing their training, and when they come back from training, they they will say, oh, we don't do it like that in college. We do this. Or have you thought about using something digitally? And we find that employers often get some benefit from apprentices. Apprentices making suggestions of things that they've seen whilst they were doing the training that can be used in the workplace. The significant majority of apprentices that we have, ninety eight percent, go on to employment either with the same employer or with another employer. As long as that apprentice has had quality training experience, they have gained the skills. They're head and shoulders above somebody who comes in with with a qualification. And that's not to downplay qualifications because of course they are important. But if you have that qualification alongside the skills, then you you are a real of real benefit to an employer.

Briony: Yeah. So I mean, for balance, we should also look at the challenges as well, presumably taking on both an apprenticeship as an individual and an apprentice. Um, both entail a huge amount of work and will come with come with a number of, if not challenges. A number of burdens on the individual or the employer. Um, how to um, I think we'll talk to Lisa in in a little while and find out about any elements of taking on an apprenticeship that you found particularly tough, but from a from a business side, what people find most challenging when taking on an apprentice.

Lynn: It's organising the workload sometimes, is difficult. So for example, if you have got a carpentry and joinery apprentice and you mainly fit doors and skirting boards, when you take an apprentice on before they'll be signed up, you have to know that you're going to cover the breadth of skills that need to be covered in the apprenticeship to make that young person or, uh, whoever you take on, ready to undertake that role. Sometimes things are as simple as coming along and saying, I've decided to have an apprenticeship apprentice and you need to set pay as you earn up. Think about setting that up because your apprentice, if you're if you're a small business and you don't have a payroll, you do need to have a payroll in place to set the apprentice up. Thinking about who's going to mentor that apprentice because they're a day, a college, let's say, and they're eighty percent in the workplace. You can't leave the apprentice, you know, to just get on. You you have to mentor that apprentice. And whilst that's very easy to if you have a workforce and if you're working alongside the apprentice, it's easy to accommodate. It does need to take some, it does need to have some thought behind it, so that you can be sure that that apprentice has the support that that he or she needs to to get there to complete the apprenticeship.

Briony: Yeah, I'm sure. And is that something that you, as a college offer support to employers on?

Lynn: Yes, we have a business development team who will go out and support employers with all of that, with how much, um, wages have to be paid. Signing up of contracts and things. And they'll also advise employers because the other benefit that there is is there are other grants available. If you take a sixteen to eighteen year old on, you get one thousand pounds from the government. Um, but also there are other organisations that give grants and particular local authorities that will give grants to support employers taking on apprenticeships. There's also a benefit really, as well, a lot of procurement that is in place now in the North West is on the condition of employers taking an apprentice on. So, you know, we go and offer help with that.

Briony: And just to localize this a bit, and bring this to the North West where you're located.

Lynn: So we have, um, a significant number of healthcare apprentices because that that is a it's a huge area nationally. So we we have a lot we we saw our healthcare apprentices when I joined here nine years ago go from six apprentices. And we've trained in excess of four hundred and thirty apprentices with five different trusts. And that continues to to grow and healthcare apprentices, people will think of traditional, but not only of the traditional nursing type routes. There are also administration. There's also HR, those sorts of apprenticeships. And we've just introduced one in one of the trusts, which is um, for cleaning apprenticeships, which obviously infection prevention and control and sustainable methods of cleaning are high priorities here. So that's something we've seen grow as well as some teaching apprenticeships for people who are ward managers or doctors who are having to mentor people with it that they're in charge of. So we've seen that grow. Our one we’re pioneering at the minute is a highway maintenance apprenticeship, because there's huge growth in construction within the North West area. So our growth we see a lot in here. So what we're looking at the moment is highway maintenance groundworks. We're looking at all of those. We do have a lot of traditional apprenticeships like carpentry and joinery, electrical. So there's there's a lot. But again all linked to construction trades.

Briony: Yeah I mean it sounds Ruth it sounds like Lynn seeing a huge increase in numbers taking up apprenticeships and in different areas of apprenticeships are thriving. Is that something that we're seeing nationally that numbers are rising both in terms of apprentices and apprenticeship areas on offer?

Ruth: I think it's, um, It's hit and miss really. So I think we've gone through phases of apprenticeships being really - so post Covid apprenticeship numbers went up quite a bit and then have dropped off and started to plateau a little bit. I think it depends on the area of the country you're in. So where, um, where Hugh Baird is in, in Bootle, in Liverpool. There is quite a lot of, um, construction and manufacturing going on around there. And there's a lot of work going on around, around the dock that I think is going to create more apprenticeships in the future. Um, and we've seen in the North West definitely a big upsurge in, in all courses, not just apprenticeships but certainly in construction is huge, um, engineering and manufacturing. There's a lot of that around the North West. You know, we've got a large aerospace, um, industry around here, lots of logistics, transport, manufacturing in the North West. And then we're seeing quite a lot more digital as well, which I think kind of a lot of them are done online. So doesn't really matter where the training provider or the college is because a lot of the learning is is done solely online. So apprentices can be anywhere in the country, don't really need to come to the college or the provider. And as Lynn was saying before, health and social care as well is growing, um, a lot. And I think that's mainly because a lot of the, the NHS trusts and also other healthcare providers are moving more into apprenticeships as a recruitment model as opposed to other other routes in through other methods of recruiting staff. Um, so that one's definitely growing as well.

Briony: What do we know about apprentices next steps? Because presumably there's an option to do a higher level apprenticeship sometimes, or to um, or to just go into employment and move away from apprenticeships for a while.

Ruth: We see quite a lot of apprentices, especially in health, that are moving through the levels, um, early years as well. Some that start at level two go on to level three and onto onto level four, some into teaching. Health definitely a ladder up from level two to three and four and onwards. We're seeing construction, not so much, I'm going to say usually if people do a level two or level three in, in a trade, you know, plumbing, carpentry and joinery, bricklaying, plastering, those kind of things, they tend to do their apprenticeship and then go into employment, not necessarily move onwards. Some might do go into, you know, site supervision, but most will do their apprenticeship and then work in their trade. So I think it depends on the sector really. Um, and if you'd agree with that, Lynn, from what you see nodding away, does that sound familiar?

Lynn: Does sound absolutely familiar. We have a lot of people in level two construction, but very few go on to level three because that's supervision. But in healthcare it healthcare is is so good, and also childcare as well. To be fair at seeing those seeing people progress through those levels, as Lisa is a testimony to.

Briony: Just before, I'm going to bring in Lisa in a second. Go on. I really want to hear from someone who's actually on the coalface taking one of these apprenticeships. Um, but just before we do, I'd really love to touch on learners with special educational needs and disabilities. Um, and a different group of of learners from more disadvantaged backgrounds. And, um, hear from you, Lynn. I suppose in terms of what, um, what opportunities, um, are, are accessible to them and how apprenticeships might, might be a good step for people joining from those, um, those groups.

Lynn: Yeah. I think apprenticeships are a really good step for people from those groups. So when you start an apprenticeship, you somebody will sit down with you and have a look at what skills you've got already, and they'll try and look at where you are. And that's a that's an interview that happens one to one. And then you get an opportunity then to talk about any additional support needs that you may have, whatever they are. And from whatever background you come from and what what we would do then is we can put support into place. We have a dedicated student support team and we can make those concessions. We have funding that supports people who may need a little bit of help to get there. If it's a trade, tools and materials, we have people that you can come and talk to if you feel things are getting overwhelming. So you've literally got your employer and you've also got your college or training provider that you can go to for that additional support. We have learning support teams here that will know about people's additional support needs, and we can put things in place to make sure that those needs are met, both in the classroom and in the workplace. We work hand in hand with employer. So it's it's quite a good opportunity for you to be able to talk to somebody one to one and say, look, I need this or I'm struggling and I need this sort of support. I think people we find here, they they perform extremely well compared to those who who don't have any additional support needs, because you've got that one to one assistance, there's always somebody you can go to that will help you through.

Briony: Yeah, that's wonderful to hear. It sounds like a fabulous option. Um, Lisa, thank you so much for joining us today. Um, I mean, I'm going to jump straight in, and I'd love to hear just why you chose, um, the apprenticeship that you did and why you chose an apprenticeship at all.

Lisa: I suppose, um, I chose an apprenticeship when I first started with the NHS trust. I've always been a carer, even in the community. It was something that I've always wanted to be. I've always wanted to be a nurse. So I took the apprenticeship from level two to level five. It's given me confidence, something I thought I'd never be able to do in my life. I left school when I was fourteen. It's been amazing to me all the way through if I've ever needed anything supported me.

Briony: I mean, we spoke earlier about, um, apprentices then being in the workforce with proven skills. And you spoke about confidence, and those two seem to go hand in hand. I mean, you're you're doing what you're learning in the workplace every single day. And that just must be an enormous confidence boost that you just, you know, that you're you know, that you can do the job because you've proven to yourself that you can. How are you finding it? I mean, working and studying side by side must bring some challenges.

Lisa: A couple of months ago, I was off with health problems. I had a bit of a cancer scare. So we had to have operation. I could say some of the pressures in work when you can't get off to come to college. But when you get it structured down, you’re fine.

Briony: Yeah. I mean, the balance, um, that Lynn and Ruth have spoken about of the the four days working and one day studying model is that is does that ring true for you? Is that how your week is balanced? Do you find that, um, you can entirely wrap up your study in one day. Or do you find that the study’s on your mind while you're at work and it's difficult to?

Lisa: Yeah, the study is worrying about it's always there. And like you say, your weekends that you've got free, you do study, but at the end of it it is worth it. I do applied biological science, health and social care lifespan through my job because I'm a assistant practitioner with the alcohol team at Aintree, and it goes great into all the fundamental nursing practices that we do.

Briony: And is it continuous assessment along the way or do you have an assessment at the end?

Lisa:  I have an assessment at the end, which is face to face observations.

Briony: And what's next for you when you breeze through that? What's next for you?

Lisa: I want to be a nurse. I want to continue and be a nurse and give back to what the hospital gives to me when I was younger.

Briony: And the connections that you've made during your apprenticeship are those do you feel that those have placed you well for looking for that, that permanent employment post apprenticeship?

Lisa: Uh, yes. You do. Um, they do. It's a I think it's a year like a top up, which you get more into giving out medication and stuff. And that's the only part I need to become a nurse.

Fiona: Can I just interject? I'm Lisa's tutor. Lisa and I have worked together, um, for the last six years. Um, Lisa first joined me on her level three apprenticeship. And you were working, um, within the clinical team as a HCA. Um, uh, within the hospital. Um, and from there and over, over her journey, Lisa has progressed to, I think you've got a distinction for your endpoint assessment on your level three. Um, she came back to me again to do her foundation degree assistant practitioner, having moved into the alcohol team and taking on additional responsibilities. And, you know, the difference in Lisa's confidence from when I very first met her and not particularly i her skills as a healthcare practitioner were always excellent and were always very, very evident. But what she's gaining across doing the foundation degree element is more enhanced knowledge within her scope of practice. Um, because the course very much focuses on where the individual is working within a team. And that seems to be something like within the NHS, looking at the NHS ten year plan and you know how they want to retain their experienced staff, but support them to upskill and to take on more responsible roles. Which she now works in independently across the hospital. She's, um, you know, managing her own caseload and supporting patients through their journey. Alcohol recovery, but also through the sort of the physical elements that, um, alcohol can, can cause for individuals. The idea being that that the, the teams will then get and, you know, a skilled practitioner within their area. So, so that, uh, you know what the, the, um, NHS teams appear to want to do is, is to have people at that band four level to be able to support the rest of the healthcare support team and bridge that gap between the practitioner and the healthcare team to to support, you know, really effective outcomes for the patients.

Briony: Yeah. And I think skilled practitioner just underpins everything that we've spoken about today, isn't it? Where you're, um, as an employer, you're not taking a risk because you've already got someone who's proven in that space. Yeah. I mean, Lisa, what a glowing testimonial. And what a great good news story, um, for both employers and apprentices alike. I can't think of a better way to leave our chat today. I want to thank everyone who's joined us. It's been incredibly enlightening for me, knowing very little about apprenticeships beforehand and that portal into the world of apprenticeships. And I'm sure it's been the same for all of the listeners. And to everyone listening, thank you as ever for joining us, and we'll see you at the next Ofsted talks.

In this episode, colleagues from the National Day Nurseries Association join Ofsted to discuss the report into the importance of the first two years of a child's life: Getting it right from the start: how early years practitioners work with babies and toddlers - GOV.UK

Briony Balsom  

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Kiran Singh  

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Kiran Singh  

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Kiran Singh  

Briony Balsom  

Kiran Singh  

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Kiran Singh  

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Would you like to learn more about our proposed new report cards, or how we’ll inspect inclusion?

Ofsted is consulting on changes to our education inspections. Host Mark Leech (Deputy Director, Communications) speaks to Ofsted’s Chief Inspector Sir Martyn Oliver, Lee Owston (National Director, Education) and Claire Stewart (Deputy Director, Inclusive Education) about our consultation proposals, including our new report cards, inclusion grade and education inspection toolkits.

Take part in our consultation here: https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/improving-the-way-ofsted-inspects-education.

Transcript

Mark Leech: Hello and welcome to Ofsted Talks. My name is Mark Leech, and today we're going to be talking about the consultation that we're currently running looking at improvements to the way we inspect education. So that's education right from early years right through schools and into further education and skills. And I'm joined by Sir Martyn Oliver, His Majesty's Chief Inspector, Lee Owston, the National Director for Education, and Claire Stewart, who is Deputy Director for Inclusive Education. Our consultation began in February, and it runs until the 28th of April. We're recording this in March so we can reflect a little bit on what we're starting to hear back from the consultation. We've been out meeting lots of people from the sectors that we inspect and regulate, and also meeting with parents groups and others, so we can talk a little bit about feedback and what we're hearing and hopefully answer some of the things that maybe people would like to hear us talk about. So, if I could turn to you Martyn first, just around a bit of the background to what we're trying to achieve here. We obviously had a huge consultation exercise last year, the Big Listen, which has shaped a lot of these proposals. What in a nutshell, are we trying to achieve with the changes we're making to education inspection?

Martyn Oliver: Yeah, thanks, Mark, and it's really good to be joined by Lee, and I'm really particularly delighted that we are joined by Claire, because isn't it great that we've now got a Deputy Director who's in charge of just inclusivity, because inclusion is a massive part of our work. And so if I go back to what happened just after I started, I was really clear that I wanted to listen to the system we launched, I think it was last March, the Big Listen, the largest consultation, the largest piece of listening work at Ofsted has ever done. Over 20,000 or so took part in our survey then we had independent surveys looking at parents, what do they think, what providers think, and indeed, children. And in the end, it's about 30,000 people. And they came back with some really strong messages. Some of them are hard for us to hear about a gap in trust. And then some of the messages were really positive about the things that we should do going forward. And some of them were things like, our framework is focusing on the right things currently, with a focus on the curriculum, and that's really important. But our framework is a generic framework across early years, primary, secondary, further education, initial teacher training education, independent schools and people didn't recognise their uniqueness, and so Lee and I were really keen to develop a framework going forward which looked at that uniqueness. We also wanted to pay attention to the context. We heard we weren't spending enough time looking at the context of inspections. The stress and pressure of inspection was a huge part of what we heard. And so, this framework that we're consulting on now isn't just about the actual design of what we will inspect. I think probably even more important than that, to be honest, is how we go about inspecting it. And we've really thought long and hard about that.

Mark Leech: Thank you. So, one of the challenges that we have at Ofsted is how we balance the needs of parents with the people that we inspect. So, we hear different things. And you've spoken about the Big Listen, and we heard different things from parents than we heard perhaps, from leaders in schools or in nurseries. And I suppose the area where this really comes together in the proposals that we've put out for consultation is in the way that we report, which is a really big change, isn't it?

Martyn Oliver: Oh yeah, the way that we're proposing to report now in 2025 going forwards, will be, I think, probably the biggest change since we were developed back in 1992 because predominantly, we've always relied upon a single word to describe the overall effectiveness of a nursery or a childminder or a school or a college. And we heard this in the Big Listen, but we also heard it from the government when they were elected, was that the single word judgment lacked nuance and complexity of the providers, and it was low information and high stakes and high accountability. We did independent research that I mentioned a few moments ago, and the independent research for providers was very clear: Remove the single word judgment, the overall effectiveness grade, and they talked about replacing it with a narrative describing the strengths of schools or bullet points. And I think it was their third option was to say or show some grades for the sub judgments of areas, but not the overall area. That same research independently carried out on parents said, we want clarity of the grades, but we don't want the single word judgment. And so designing this idea of a report card, dropping that single word grade was to try and lean into the nuance, lean into the complexity, provide written forms of strengths and areas for development that the system’s really clearly asked for, but also provide the clarity on sub judgment and grade that parents asked for, and that's where the idea behind the report card came into. And I get that because it's different, it's going to feel like a big challenge and a big change. I mean, one of the things that I think from my early conversations with people is they're struggling to understand that a provider could be both needing to pay attention to something and be strong at something else. You could be both things across that one institution in different areas. And I think that's right, because if I go back to being a head teacher, and I had quite a few outstanding schools. And even in my outstanding schools, I used to think to myself, yeah, but I know it isn't all outstanding. There are some aspects of it that I'm working on, and the idea of the report card is to try to get underneath that and be of more use.

Mark Leech: So I mean, from a parent's point of view as well, I suppose that, you know, they're going to be used to seeing this with their own children, you know, their own children will have things they're really excelling at in other areas where perhaps they're they need a bit more help. So, it's that sort of approach to a school to a nursery to a further education college.

Martyn Oliver: Exactly. It's leaning into that complexity and trying our best to help that provider recognise their strengths, recognise what they're working on, or perhaps sometimes point out to them things that they didn't perhaps know about themselves and be of use on that journey. And it's also, I think, really important alongside our consultation, which you can find on our website, gov.uk, the Department of Education is also running a separate consultation, completely independent of ours about how they might use our information to look at accountability on the system. So, there are two types of consultation out there, and I'd encourage people to go and find them both.

Mark Leech: Yeah, I think that's really important, isn't it? Because I think people do misunderstand that relationship, even people who work in education, the fact that we are the inspectorate. We go out, we inspect a school, we give a series of grades related to what to what we see. We're not responsible for the next step. So, the next step, be it some sort of support for that school, be it some sort of intervention that sits with government, as you say, there's a separate consultation on that. So, on the new report card, we're going to be using a new grading scale, so it's got five points to it, and it runs from causing concern at the lowest end, attention needed, secure, strong and exemplary. So, people have been talking a lot about these, these five grades. Martyn, perhaps if you and Lee could talk us through what those grades mean and how they'd be applied?

Martyn Oliver: Yeah, absolutely. So, the idea is behind the report card, as I said, was to provide more nuanced, more complex information about the wide range of things that providers do, whether you're in a childminder or a nursery or a school or a college. In law, we have to tell the Department for Education if there's an unacceptable standard of education taking place, and so we call that the lowest grade here ‘causing concern’. And if a school or a child model a college falls into that category, that's when we would bring the Department for Education in. And that's why it's important that people look at our consultation, and they also look at the Department for Education's consultation on how they might use our information. So that's the lowest grade causing concern. I'm just going to jump quickly then to ‘secure’. Secure is where we would start all of our inspections at. We would expect everyone to hit the secure standard. It should give parents a great deal of confidence when they see that people are meeting that secure standard. Now, once you've got that secure standard, and you've got that unacceptable standard causing concern, I think it's really important that you've got something in the middle, because if you don't, it's a cliff edge, you're either secure or you fall off and you're unacceptable. And that would be too much pressure on the system. So, I think you need something as a halfway house. It's not an unacceptable standard. It is acceptable. But if you don't pay attention to it, it could be a problem. Now, Lee's got quite a nice way of describing this. Lee, you told me it's a bit like, like an MOT.

Lee Owston: Absolutely so in my mind, attention needed, it’s a bit like when you take your car in for an MOT and they'll say, well, Lee, you can certainly drive your car home today, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it. You can still use it, but actually, unless you kind of take a look at your back left tire and you kind of keep an eye on the wear and tear, the next time you come in for your mot, it's probably going to be unacceptable in terms of the standard that we've set, and that's what we wanted to introduce in terms of between secure and causing concern. Catching settings before they fall, giving them the opportunity to address something before it becomes a major issue, and that's why we came up with attention needed. It's for the attention of leaders within that particular establishment, and of course, it's then up to them to seek the support if they need it, to put whatever aspect of practice that might be.

Martyn Oliver: Yeah, and I also think it might be useful for parents, because they might choose to use that information when they go in and talk to their child's school, for example, and say ‘what are you doing about this in your setting?’ and allow the school to explain the actions that they're taking. It should be, I think, helpful for both sides, because I think it's really important that schools work closely with parents, and actually that's one of the things that's in our toolkit that we look at that. So, that gets us then to secure needs attention or attention needed and causing concern. But I don't think that's enough. There's some fantastic performance out there, and if we don't recognise those who are going beyond the secure standard, then that would be a huge, wide range of providers, from those who just made it through to those who are doing something so good that it really is standing out, and that's why we've developed strong or strong practice.

Lee Owston: Yeah, and we recognise in lots of the feedback we're already receiving, whether that's through the consultation questionnaire or that's when we're talking directly to leaders, that there's more work for us to do there, certainly to really clarify what is the difference between being secure, doing everything that you need to, in terms of the statutory outcomes and expectations and frameworks, and then strong in terms of going beyond that. And we know there are schools out there that rightly go above and beyond what the kind of expectation or the core standard might be that's been set, and of course, we're working through so what are those features of strong practice that we want to put into our toolkit and very clearly state in our toolkit so people can see the difference between being secure, being strong, what that means and in terms of potential features that may be may be exemplary.

Martyn Oliver: Yeah. Now the bit that I found was really exciting about this is Ofsted’s unique role. It should be beholden upon Ofsted to see where we see someone is so strong that something they're doing maybe world class. I mean, I was in a school in the Northwest where I was watching how the school had paid attention to the needs of children with additional needs, whether a special educational needs or they had a vulnerability because they were perhaps a looked after child. Every single teacher had a clear idea of every child and their vulnerability and their disadvantage background in their class. Every single additional adult, a teaching assistant, had that same information. All the leaders had the same information. And the way that those three groups worked together to wrap around these children was absolutely incredible. Some of the best I've seen in 28 years of walking into schools. That would be an example where I would say, that's exemplary, that is incredible. And I think that other schools could learn from that, if that school was willing to share it. And that's where Ofsted, unique role wants to come in in sharing that exemplary practice.

Lee Owston: And I would add to that to say, that it's highly unlikely that leaders, settings will be exemplary across the board. And we want to make a very clear distinction, don't we, between how Ofsted and inspection has operated in the past and how we are proposing to operate in the future. So, for example, we don't want people to equate what we do now i.e. outstanding with exemplary. You can't make that kind of leap, or that jump between one system and another, and that's why it's important that we do explain exemplary, because it's about the feature of practice that's exemplary, rather than saying it's an entire aspect or evaluation area within our toolkit.

Martyn Oliver: That's also what we heard in the Big Listen. There was a lack of trust that people had in the grades we've given, and so that's why I think this is a really important moment for Ofsted to reset and to rebuild trust, reset its relationship with those that we inspect and develop a new way of reporting, both to parents and to the providers that leans into that nuance, leans into that complexity, which is why we have those areas and why we have those grades. But it's really important that what we're actually asking is nothing new.

Mark Leech: So, before we get on to how we inspect and I want to come back to a word that you've dropped in there a couple of times, which is toolkit. So, we'll come back to that, but just to pick up on the report cards, then people will see more grades, so five grades, and they'll certainly see a lot more areas that those grades are applied to. So Lee, do you want to just run through? And I know it's different if you're if you're a nursery to a school to a college to a apprenticeship provider, but what sort of things are we looking at?

Lee Owston: So you'll of course see lots of things that you're very familiar with. In fact, there shouldn't be anything in our toolkit that you think, oh, that's brand new. I've never heard of that before, with the exception of inclusion, and I think Claire will come in later and talk about inclusion. But for example, you will see leadership and governance, that leaders and governors are responsible for taking forward the high-quality education and care for the children and the learners in their particular community. You'll see in there, curriculum, what is it that we want children and learners to be working through in terms of their program of study. Teaching is in there. We've importantly called it developing teaching, because it's about how leaders are offering support and development to their staff, so they can be the absolute best in terms of what they deliver for children and young people. You'll see in their behaviour, attendance, personal development, so lots of things that we already know and are familiar with. However, the important difference is that we've separated them out so that no longer aggregated into one overarching judgment, but actually we've disaggregated them. We've separated them out into their constituent parts, because it's important that we're able to evaluate and grade all of the great things that leaders are doing. And let's celebrate that success where it exists, and an awful lot of it exists. But also, let's use the opportunity of inspection to reassure leaders that whatever they've got on their desk today, whatever priorities they're working through, that actually they're the right ones. They've got the right actions in place, and even if they're not seeing the finished article yet, that we can say, but you're going in the right direction, and there are some green shoots. And then the other function of inspection, linked to what we were describing earlier, around attention needed, is that with fresh eyes, as an independent person visiting a college or a school or a nursery, I can say, and look, you might just want to turn your attention to these things next. They're not on your radar today, but I think they should be in the future, because if you don't, they're probably going to be a concern when we come back in 4,5,6 years time, depending on the remit. So, in terms of how we work through inspection, it's important to see all of the proposals as one big package, because ultimately, it's about how it all fits together, not only what we look at, but as I'm really passionate about how inspection feels. When I or my inspectors come out and visit leaders in their settings, what does it feel like and that interaction, that conversation, and that dialog, and we've got a range of measures in our proposals that I encourage everybody to look at, because it is about seeing all of it together so that we can change the culture and make inspection the best it possibly can be.

Mark Leech: I want to bring Claire in because we heard a bit there about inclusion. It is a new thing that we're focusing on through the inspection. It will get a standalone grade of its own. It's been something that people have been talking about in the education sector and discussing how this is going to work. So, Claire, what light can you shed on first of all, what we mean by inclusion, and I know there's been some work done talking to various people in the sector who are experts in this field, to help define what we should be looking at. And then how we inspect it and how we apply that.

Claire Stewart: It's a really tricky question, isn't it, what do we mean by inclusion? And you'll see in our consultation that we've got a working definition, and we've used that to help us inform our work through the toolkits on inclusion and that grade. And we're really keen to hear people's views on that working definition. What we're really looking for, though, is that providers and settings know their students, they know their pupils, they understand what barriers they might be facing to education. Disadvantage and vulnerability isn't a fixed state, is it? You know, pupils can move in and out of being vulnerable, and it's about how leaders can show us that they understand their pupils and that they're able to try and meet their needs and remove some of those barriers, and, of course, how they support those students with SEND (special educational needs and/or disabilities) as well. So, I think that's really, really important. I'm really excited that we've got this standalone grade on inclusion. I think that really shows just how important it is for everyone at Ofsted and for the wider education sector. It's really really important. I'm also really excited that if you look at the toolkits, it's actually throughout a lot of those other grades as well. So we're thinking about how inclusive is the curriculum, how inclusive is the teaching, what are the behaviour policies like, and how do we meet the needs of some of those really vulnerable, disadvantaged children, those students that might have SEND and also thinking about how providers also think about those really highly able pupils as well, and how they meet their needs.

Mark Leech: It is quite broad in that sense, isn't it? It is really looking at pupils from different sorts of backgrounds, pupils with different levels of ability and how they are included.

Martyn Oliver: So I was really keen to see inclusion be at the heart of it. And look, it's early days, but I was talking to a very senior person representing the work of local authorities, and they were saying that, since we've started talking about inclusion the last 13-14 months, if you get it right for the most vulnerable and disadvantaged, you get it right for everyone. This very senior person said, since you've been talking about inclusion, we're noticing the system suddenly opening more resource bases. We're noticing changes in admissions. Makes you realise how important it is that we get this right, because the intended consequence of what Ofsted does is so impactful, just as the unintended consequences. And that's why we're doing a consultation because we don't want to have an unintended consequences. And we definitely do want to have those intended consequences that will raise standards and improve the lives, especially of the most vulnerable.

Mark Leech: No, definitely. And talking about what we're seeing a bit of in the consultation, and I'll bring Claire back in, perhaps, on this is a bit of concern around around the inclusion grade that to take schools as the sort of example here that schools might be sort of penalised for failures in the wider SEND system. So, for a long time, people have spoken about the SEND system being under enormous strain. It's often described as a broken system. I think it's really important talking about those unintended consequences that we don't end up with schools sort of carrying the can for wider problems in the in the system. So, Claire, can you talk a little bit about that and perhaps reassure some of the listeners about how we'll go about looking at SEND within that area of inclusion?

Claire Stewart: Absolutely, there's a lot of positivity in what we're seeing initially in the consultation responses around that focus on inclusion, it is so important, and it's something that parents are really keen on, but absolutely recognise the kind of concerns that schools will have. What we are really looking for is that schools know and understand the needs of their pupils and how they try to lower those barriers to learning for those pupils, whatever they might be. We understand the context of those schools that they're sitting in, we do hear about the wider SEND system, and we understand the challenges there. So, we're not expecting schools to kind of do things that are totally outside of their control. What we are wanting to see is that teachers and leaders understand their pupils and that they are trying to mitigate those barriers as much as they can with the resources that they've got.

Mark Leech: I think that's really helpful to hear. So we've talked a lot about the different grades and the different areas that we're going to be looking at and, once or twice we've mentioned toolkits, so we should really get on to some of some of that area now, which is more about how we are proposing to inspect from November this year, so that's when we're looking to bring these changes in. Lee, do you want to talk a little bit about what these toolkits are, and a bit more as you alluded to earlier, around the feel of inspection, and what we're trying to do there. It's one of the areas that has come up a lot in the kind of debate that's been going on about Ofsted, about how head teachers and leaders in nurseries and further education colleges, how they feel when they're being inspected.

Lee Owston: Yeah, that that term toolkit, we've chosen that term. Look, we might not stick with it depends what people tell us as part of the part of the consultation, but it is a word we're using to describe a set of materials that are as helpful and supportive as possible in terms of continuous improvement. And yes, we'll be using them at the point of inspection to support an evaluation and a grade, but we would hope that leaders, wherever they are in the education system, would be able to use those same materials to support whatever it is that they have to do next in their day-to-day work. And in doing that, we've been very conscious to craft each toolkit, and there's one for each remit that we inspect and or regulate – so, registered early years, state funded schools, non-association, independent schools, further education and skills and initial teacher education – so, we've tried to make sure that we speak directly to those different remits. We've crafted them all around the statutory. guidance and the professional frameworks that exist within each of those remits. So, to give you an example, our registered early years toolkit is crafted around the EYFS, the Early Years Foundation Stage, the statutory document the government have set as the expectation in terms of what all registered early years settings should be doing. So, this is not about Ofsted telling people what they should do. I want to be able to come in as an inspector and evaluate how well you are following through on all of the things that you're expected to do that has been set by government. And in schools, we have things like ‘Keeping children safe in education’, we have teacher standards, we have the special educational needs code of practice. And of course, in colleges, we have the 16 to 19 study programme guidance, we have apprenticeship standards. So, every remit to varying degrees has a core set of materials set by government that lay out the expectations of how they're supposed to work. Inspection will just key into those and, as we described earlier, the secure column, that middle column in the toolkit, is really carefully crafted against those statutory expectations and professional frameworks. It's deliberately more detailed in that middle column, because we've tried to capture all of the guidance that exists. So, we hope that when people look at the toolkit, they will recognize that it isn't anything other than what they would usually be expected to work within. The other challenge was to make them as crystal clear and as accessible as possible. I recognise that sometimes we can all look, as it currently exists, one bullet point, let's just say, under ‘good’ currently, and because they're written in such high level language, and there's such a summary of lots of things that we can all come to understand and interpret them in different ways, and that's where we can get lots of criticism about inconsistency because are we all looking at the same thing and understanding it in the same way? So, I want to reassure people that, yes, the toolkits do look like there is more. But what I really tried to do is take out of my mind, as the principal inspector for the organisation, the thought processes that I go through, and try to put them in everyday language onto the page so that nothing is hidden, nothing is secret, everybody is well aware of the steps that we go through and the expectations that we have linked to, as I said, that statutory guidance and those professional frameworks. Now there's more work for us to do, because I'm pretty sure there'll be bits of it, bits of the toolkits, standards that we could be even sharper at describing. But I think the message about not being additional or other and making it as accessible as possible is certainly the right direction that we should be going in.

Martyn Oliver: We launched a consultation, we said openly that we know that strong needs to be better defined. And we could have run all sorts of test visits out in the sector for months and then launched the consultation, but I was determined, and again, it's a part of the Big Listen to be open and transparent, and that's why we didn't do that. We made sure that the system knows that there won't be any clandestine testing taking place. We'll be out there openly and transparently saying we're now out in schools or out in early years, out in colleges, testing. And that's why we expect to see that bit get better. And so, in the consultation responses, I'd really love it if people came back with supported definitions to how to strengthen, strong. I think that'd be great. And the other part of behind the toolkit now, we do not want people to go writing self-evaluation form. We don't want that. If there's nine areas we're looking at, we don't want head teachers to produce nine ring box files of evidence, but we do know that the best leaders will evaluate, self-evaluate where they stand. And because the toolkits are written against those professional standards, and if anyone hasn't done this, if people are listening to this and they're a teacher or a parent of a child in a school, just pop onto the internet and have a look at professional standards to be a teacher. The day that you qualified from initial teacher education to become a qualified teacher. It's got two parts, part A and part B. Look at part A in particular. There's an awful lot in there about delivering high quality curriculum, high quality assessment, supporting children to achieve well. Once you read that language, then look at our toolkit. You'll see where it's coming from. And I've had messages already from an executive head, who runs a large group of schools in the north of England, not my old one that I used to run, I quickly hasten to add, and they said that they're finding the toolkit so helpful because they're evaluating their school and they're now leaning into what we've already put in our draft to help them be as sharp as they can, about the great elements that make up great provision, and that's where the tool comes in.

Mark Leech: We’ve heard an awful lot. We've talked about grades, we've talked about the evaluation areas, we've talked about the toolkits and how the inspections will work. Talked about inclusion, which has been really helpful. I think we could probably talk for a lot longer. I think I'm going to suggest to people listening that they go to our website, gov.uk/Ofsted, where you can read all of the proposals and take part in the consultation. We genuinely want to hear back from people out there, from parents in particular. We want to hear back from people who are working in the sector. We want to hear back about the sort of big picture, but also some of the details. Are we getting the wording right in the toolkit, are we explaining ourselves clearly enough in the report card, so lots and lots of areas for people to feedback on. You have until the 28th of April. So, it just leaves me to thank Sir Martyn, Lee and Claire for joining me today, and thank you all for listening.

What's the picture of local areas and how well they are working to prepare children and young people with special educational needs for adulthood? What support are they offering to allow young people to reach their full potential? Preparation for adulthood arrangements in local areas: a thematic review - GOV.UK

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So much to unpack all day, which is fabulous, and you're clearly so passionate about it. Listen, I'm itching to come to Sabarina and talk, because this is potentially a really exciting time, a time of big decisions as you work out next steps, whether you want to work go into further study. How does that feel?

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Rachel Gibson  5:29  

Briony Balsom  6:11  

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Adam Sproston  8:50  

Briony Balsom  9:49  

Sabarina Logan  10:04  

Rachel, it must be really satisfying as leader to see that direct line of sight between your aspirations?

Rachel Gibson  11:26  

Adam Sproston  14:02  

Briony Balsom  15:19  

Adam Sproston  15:32  

We started running some open events for prospective staff to who wanted to work in support. So not just SEND support, but who might want be interested in library jobs, admin jobs. And as a result, we recruited about seven or eight staff from that, didn't we? So we ran it again and again. Got so every time we run it, we get it. So our our vacancy numbers are smaller now than there have been. And the other thing we've we've done, which, we're really proud of, is we sort of partnered with with another local authority and their apprenticeship provision to recruit teaching assistant level three teaching assistant apprenticeships. So we've currently got four who are about three or about two to do their end point assessment, who hopefully will all then go into permanent pools. For those, that's what we would hope. And we're going through another recruitment phase, because it's for us to be able to get level three apprenticeships in and almost sort of grow your own approach, really. But we also think we can we always look for progression. You know, for you know, we are talent managing our our new staff, from almost on the minute the walk in a lot of our wider leadership team and within central support services started off as support staff, so they've got a real understanding. And as a result of that, we, we as a service, have got really positive scores from our. Up around and well being work life balance, and also how supportive line managers are, which is a massive part of of retaining good staff.

Briony Balsom  20:09  

Adam Sproston  20:20  

Briony Balsom  23:33  

 I'm now joined by Jess Taylor-Beirne, who is Children's Services operations manager at the Care Quality Commission, or the CQC, with whom Ofsted worked jointly on the reports just to set the scene. Jess, why was it that we worked together on this report?

Jess Taylor-Beirne  24:07  

Briony Balsom  25:10  

Jess Taylor-Beirne  28:19  

Briony Balsom  30:49  

Ofsted's report into multi-agency responses to serious youth violence: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/multi-agency-responses-to-serious-youth-violence-working-together-to-support-and-protect-children

Briony Balsom  

Wendy Ghaffar  

Briony Balsom  

Wendy Ghaffar  

Briony Balsom  

Jess Taylor-Beirne  

Briony Balsom  

Ade Solarin  

Briony Balsom  

Helen Davies  

Briony Balsom  

Wendy Ghaffar  

Briony Balsom  

Ade Solarin  

Jess Taylor-Beirne  

Helen Davies  

Wendy Ghaffar  

Ade Solarin  

Jess Taylor-Beirne  

Wendy Ghaffar  

Briony Balsom  

Helen Davies  

Briony Balsom  

Wendy Ghaffar  

Briony Balsom  

Carly Adams Elias  

Briony Balsom  

Carly Adams Elias  

Briony Balsom  

Speaker 8  

Briony Balsom  

Carly Adams Elias  

Wendy Ghaffar  

Briony Balsom  

Carly Adams Elias  

Briony Balsom  

Carly Adams Elias  

Briony Balsom