One CA Podcast

By Civil Affairs Association

One CA Podcast is here to inspire anyone interested in traveling to work with a partner nation’s people and leadership to forward U.S. foreign policy.

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October 01, 2019 37: General Anthony Zinni on a Unified, Interagency Command
Welcome to One CA Podcast. Today, we have Retired General Anthony Zinni present his argument for a unified, interagency command to bring together Civil Affairs forces and personnel from the Department of State, USAID, etc. General Zinni also tells the story of his nickname, "The Godfather."
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Transcript:
00:00:00    SPEAKER_02
Oh, could this vintage store be any cuter? Right? And the best part? They accept Discover. Accept Discover? In a little place like this? I don't think so, Jennifer. Oh, yeah, huh?

00:00:11    SPEAKER_00
Discover's accepted where I like to shop. Come on, baby, get with the times.

00:00:15    SPEAKER_02
Right, so we shouldn't get the parachute pants?

00:00:19    SPEAKER_00
These are making a comeback. I think. Discover is accepted at 99 % of places that take credit cards nationwide. Based on the February 2024 Nielsen Report.

00:01:17    SPEAKER_04
Welcome to the 1CA Podcast. My name is John McGilligate, your host for today's episode. We're joined today by General Anthony Zinni. General Zinni was born in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania in 1943 and raised in the Philadelphia area. He attended St. Cosmos and Damien Grade School and St. Matthews High School in Conshohock in Pennsylvania. He currently resides in Williamsburg, Virginia. His military, diplomatic, business, and academic career has taken him to over 100 countries. General Zinni joined the Marine Corps' Platoon Leader Class Program in 1961 and was commissioned an Infantry Second Lieutenant in 1965 upon graduation from Villanova University. He held numerous command and staff assignments that include platoon, company, battalion, regimental, Marine Expeditionary Unit, and Marine Expeditionary Force Command. His staff assignments include service and operations, training, special operations, counterterrorism, and manpower billets. He has been a tactics and operations instructor at several Marine Corps schools and was selected as a fellow on the Chief of Naval Operations Strategic Studies Group. General Zinni's joint assignments include command of a joint task force and a unified command. He has also held several joint and combined staff billets at joint task force and unified command levels. His military experience includes deployments to the Mediterranean, the Caribbean, the Western Pacific, Northern Europe, and Korea. He has also served tours of duty in Okinawa and Germany. His operational experiences include two tours in Vietnam where he was severely wounded, emergency relief and security operations in the Philippines, Operation Provide Comfort in Turkey and northern Iraq, Operation Provide Hope in the former Soviet Union, Operation Restore Hope, Continue Hope, and United Shield in Somalia, Operation Resolute Response and Noble Response in Kenya, operations Desert Thunder, Desert Fox, Desert Viper, Desert Spring, Southern Watch, and Maritime Intercept operations in Iraq and the Persian Gulf, and Operation Infinite Reach against terrorist targets in the Central Region. He was involved in the planning and execution of Operation Proven Force and Operation Patriot Defender during the Gulf War, and noncombatant evacuation operations in Liberia, Zaire, Sierra Leone, and Eritrea. He has attended numerous military schools and courses, including the Army Special Warfare School, the Marine Corps Amphibious Warfare School, the Marine Corps Command and Staff College, and the National War College. General Zinni retired from the military in 2000 after commanding U .S. Central Command. General Zinni, welcome to the 1CA Podcast. Thanks, John. Good to be with you. Thank you very much. And going through the long list of operations makes me wonder who comes up with the names and how they do that. Do you know how that works?

00:04:55    SPEAKER_04
And I would think the foxes and the vipers and the springs, all the animals you can put on a coin would work out well, too. Yeah. So we're here today to talk about your connection with civil affairs, what you've learned throughout your career, and give some guidance to listeners about where you see civil affairs as a joint force, Army, Marine Corps, where it may be heading, and as a capability to support of the U .S. government interests. So let me start by asking you, during your time in uniform, when did you first come across the Civil Affairs Unit?

00:05:26    SPEAKER_01
Well, you know...

00:06:07    SPEAKER_01
in a hostile environment, and a lot of agencies that were going to show up, and non -governmental organizations, United Nations, other international organizations, and private volunteer organizations, and trying to figure out how this would all work. And that's the first time I really sat down with two civil affairs officers that were planners on our staff that I got to know very well,

00:06:29    SPEAKER_01
were planners on our staff that I got to know very well, and captains Elmo and Hess. who taught me a lot about what civil affairs could contribute. And I think for the J3 and our deputy commander at the time, we all were kind of saying, you know, we just didn't have this kind of understanding of what civil affairs could do.

00:06:53    SPEAKER_01
And I think one of the reasons why the operation was such a success is because the civil affairs participation in there, eventually we had a brigadier general.

00:07:04    SPEAKER_01
Because what we found, what I would say was the main effort eventually became that kind of coordination and connectivity with not only the people that were traumatized and were dealing with in their leadership, but with all these other civilian governmental and non -governmental volunteer organizations.

00:07:24    SPEAKER_01
organizations. And so that was an eye -opener, and I took that with me to Somalia. When I went to Somalia as the J -3 for the first task force, and then back again as an advisor with Ambassador Oakley, the second tour, then the third tour commanding the forces to cover the withdrawal. Civil affairs played a great deal in the planning that we had done,

00:07:50    SPEAKER_01
and my awareness of what they did, you know, really.

00:08:10    SPEAKER_04
So it sounds like the planning aspect of this is a key point, turning point, potentially positive way for CA forces to support their units. And you can't wait for you to be on the ground and hope, oh, the CA team is right over there. Of course we know what they do. And that rarely happens. It's kind of like getting an infantry commander to realize, well, logistics are key to your success overall. just as these other enablers like psychological operations or civil affairs may be, but that needs to start well in advance before you hit the ground and plan the operation. Does that happen routinely?

00:08:49    SPEAKER_01
And unfortunately, I think in a lot of cases, planners are not as aware of what civil affairs can do and bring as maybe we should be,

00:09:01    SPEAKER_01
especially when we're thinking in terms of, well, it's a combat operation, but in this day and age. You know, the kinds of environments we find ourselves in, it's combat rolled into all sorts of other kinds of missions. And I think, you know, up until the 1990s, probably everybody thought of civil affairs as an organization that came in, basically dealt with keeping civilians out of the way and tending to their needs. And then more in a support role, I think in the 1990s began to see. It was not only a major contributor, but like I said, at times it should be and could be the main effort.

00:09:37    SPEAKER_01
be the main effort. Certainly as you phased into maybe the drawing down of combat operations and now the more reconstruction efforts and stabilization efforts,

00:09:42    SPEAKER_01
the drawing down of combat operations and now the more reconstruction efforts and stabilization efforts, but still requiring military involvement. This is the ideal bridge and organization, but it has to be planned for and it has to be involved right from the beginning. But I think the key is that maybe in the 90s we began to see that it was more than just a supporting role, that it played a key role in the planning, and that it had operational level importance and certainly needed to be considered at that level,

00:10:03    SPEAKER_01
in the 90s

00:10:12    SPEAKER_01
operational level importance and certainly needed to be considered at that level, at the combatant commander level.

00:10:19    SPEAKER_04
Yeah. You spent most of your career in the Marine Corps and Joint Force elements. The Marine Corps still has civil affairs. The Navy got out of the business. The bulk of the CA forces are still in the Army, with most of it in the reserve component. When you, going through your experiences looking back and now what we have today with the force structure of civil affairs, is it the right mix? Does the Marine Corps need more or less civil affairs? And, you know, for the Army balanced active duty and reserve, do you think that's right?

00:10:49    SPEAKER_01
You know, I spent almost my entire general officer time.

00:11:01    SPEAKER_01
I think we have to think about it joint. Who are the best contributors? Obviously, the bulk of civil affairs will be from the Army. I think it's valuable that all the services have some civil affairs capability so that they're aware of it and its capabilities, and they contribute to the joint capability. I do think, though... And like we think of transportation command and all that, we need a joint command that does civil affairs. I don't think SOCOM is the right place for civil affairs. I think civil affairs is important. And there's a differentiation between what civil affairs does and what we do with special operations. And I think the integration and the requirement and the need to interface with other agencies. means that we should look at a unified or subunified command. And I think I would even go so far as if we really have people that want to think on a larger and more strategic scale,

00:12:06    SPEAKER_01
would even go so far as if we really have people that want to think on a larger and more strategic scale, this would be the ideal.

00:12:30    SPEAKER_01
It would help tremendously, I can tell you from a combatant commander's point of view, in planning because none of those other agencies plan at all.

00:12:35    SPEAKER_01
of those other agencies plan at all. They claim to, but they don't. I look at my deliberate war plans and I don't see a State Department or AID or other component about how we're going to manage things during the operations and in the later phases how we're going to do the transitioning.

00:12:53    SPEAKER_01
in the later phases how we're going to do the transitioning. I think a classic example was Iraq.

00:13:00    SPEAKER_01
Orha and CPA were disasters. You know, we keep trying to put lipstick on that pig, but it did not go well because it was a pickup ad hoc attempt at nation building, and you can't do business that way, even on a smaller scale.

00:13:17    SPEAKER_04
It seems like the last 20 years or so, maybe longer, DOD has been taking on... more and more missions that state or USAID had been doing traditionally, and the money has been going to DoD, and that slope just feeds the cycle of people saying, well, state and aid can't do it. Well, maybe they're not stepping up to the plate. Maybe they don't have the money they used to have. And DoD just continues to eat more of that mission set. Where do we get, do you think, the turning point where state and aid continue to pick up those missions or the Congress decides, hey, we need to fund them adequately? Otherwise, as General Mattis had mentioned, we need to buy more ammunition.

00:14:19    SPEAKER_01
Biden and Senators Curry and a number of others are on there. And this whole business of lack of interagency coordination and planning and then execution on the ground that really bothered them. And they formed a policy advisory group. And I was on it. I retired to sort of represent the military. And what surprised me is the lack of understanding by state and others about how extensive the planning had to be, the preparation. and the identification of the personnel and the people and the structure and the organization you were going to need. Because I was looking,

00:14:56    SPEAKER_01
when I was a CENTCOM commander, just on the Iraq plan, you know, where's the annex or where's the second part of the plan that tells me how we're going to transition this over? Who comes in behind the combat forces or with them, more appropriately, that begins right away restructuring the government? I did assessments after I retired in Iraq and Afghanistan, in Iraq for General Odierno and Afghanistan for General Mattis. And I kind of wandered around and looked at everything we had on the ground there. And what shocked me is seeing the percentage of organizations that were non -military that had military people doing that business.

00:15:26    SPEAKER_01
had on the ground

00:15:32    SPEAKER_01
-military that had military people doing that business. I would find the anti -corruption task force. You know, headed by Brigadier General H .R. McMaster with everybody. I looked around with one exception was wearing a uniform. The provisional reconstruction teams were 80 percent military, not counting security.

00:15:53    SPEAKER_01
You know, and you looked around and saw that we had no plan going into these operations because nobody did the planning. And we had no pre -coordination or pre -identification as to who was going to do all this. Therefore, you end up with those pickup teams with people that are coming in that have no clue,

00:16:12    SPEAKER_01
that have no clue, couldn't find the Middle East, you know, if they tried. And you end up with the military piece goes well, but the day after, the and then what question is up in the air,

00:16:26    SPEAKER_01
in the air, and that's where you end up failing. Right.

00:16:29    SPEAKER_04
So I want to circle back to a recommendation you had a few minutes ago. And this relates to a section of your book, which is entitled Before the First Shots Were Fired, that you've written with Tony Colts. And you cite a 2009 conference at which you recommended that civil affairs become, quote, a unified command responsible for integrating all the agency's efforts and providing the planning, administrative, and logistical support for the interagency teams on the ground, end quote. So we've already talked about some of what you've seen in your career
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44min
September 15, 2019 36: Garric Banfield on the 95th Civil Affairs Brigade
Welcome to One CA Podcast. Today we have CSM Garric Banfield, Command Sergeant Major of the 95th Civil Affairs Brigade at Fort Bragg, NC, discusses the 95th mission and organization and offers tips for current and future CA non-commissioned officers.
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Transcript:
00:00:00    SPEAKER_01
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00:00:30    SPEAKER_03
think there's a better job in the Army than being an NCO on a civil affairs team. There's nowhere else in the Army that a staff sergeant or sergeant first class has a strategic effect on a region or theater that they do on a civil affairs team. Our NCOs are routinely entrusted and engaged directly with U .S. country teams and embassies and indigenous partners and institutions around the world on behalf of theater commanders. The language skills and cultural expertise that they gain through a training pipeline is exceptional, and they'll always be confronted with and expected to solve complex problems with little more than the knowledge of the nation's interests and an understanding of the strategic intent.

00:01:29    SPEAKER_04
Hi and welcome to the 1CA podcast. My name is John McElligot, your host for today's episode. We're joined today by Command Sergeant Major Garrick Banfield. He entered the U .S. Army in June 1992. Since then, he has served in numerous leadership positions ranging from scout team leader to brigade command sergeant major. He currently serves as the brigade command sergeant major of the 95th Civil Affairs Brigade Special Operations Airborne. CSM Banfield's assignments have ranged from the 1st Squadron 3rd Cab rudiment, 4th Squadron, 7th Cav, 124th Infantry Regiment, 15th Cav Regiment, and the 1st Cav Regiment in Germany. He then switched over to Civil Affairs and was 1st Sergeant for the 96th Civil Affairs Battalion Special Operations Airborne based in Fort Bragg, North Carolina. He's also served as the Senior Enlisted Advisor for the Combined Arms Center Special Operations Forces Cell at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, the Battalion Command Sergeant Major of the 81st CA Battalion in Fort Hood, the Brigade Command Sergeant Major of Task Force Sinai in Egypt, and Action Officer in USASAC for the Commander Initiatives Groups in Fort Bragg, North Carolina. Command Sergeant Major has deployed on several contingency and combat operations to include Operation Desert Falcon, Operation Joint Endeavor, Operation Joint Guard, Operation Iraqi Freedom, and Operation Enduring Freedom, Operation New Dawn, and the Multinational Force and Observer Mission. He holds a Master of Science degree in Defense Analysis and Regular Warfare from the Naval Postgraduate School and a Bachelor of Science degree in Information Systems Management from the University of Maryland University College. CSM Banfield, thank you very much for being on the 1CA podcast.

00:03:11    SPEAKER_03
Hey, sir. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

00:03:14    SPEAKER_04
I was trying to look up your name and the origin of both Garrick and Banfield, and it looks like it's an old English name. I think the finding, what I found from Garrick was one who governs with a spear and mighty warrior. Do you know the background of your first name or surname?

00:03:31    SPEAKER_03
Well, sir, actually, I was originally going to be named Garrett. However, my mother's best friend, who was pregnant at the same time, had her son a couple weeks before I was born, and she took Garrett. So Garrick was the next thing on the docket. So that's the origin of my name. I do appreciate your research and background, and I'm going to latch onto that and say it was the spirit of the warrior that she saw in me when she named me.

00:04:02    SPEAKER_04
Exactly. That's awesome. Thank you again for being here. Really glad to have somebody from the 95th. We wanted to dig in for the listeners to what the 95th is, what your responsibilities as a Sergeant Major are, and talk a little bit more about the battalions that serve under the 95th. So I want to start. By asking you, how long have you been with the 95th?

00:04:24    SPEAKER_03
Sir, this time around, I've been with the 95th for about a year. I assumed responsibility as the brigade command sergeant major last May. However, I originally came to the 96th in 2005 after graduating the civil affairs qualification course. I served with the 96th and dealt the company as a team sergeant. then the first sergeant in both charlie company and hhc 96 and then i left the 96 in 2011 to go out to naval postgraduate school in california on graduation from naval postgraduate school i was assigned to the combined arms center special operation forces cell at fort leavenworth kansas I served as a senior enlisted advisor to the CACSO South. And then I was selected on Battalion CSL in 2012 and moved out to Fort Hood, Texas. Served as a Battalion Command Sergeant Major for the 81st Civil Affairs Battalion from 2013 to 2015. In 2015, I was selected for an Army Brigade. Command Sergeant Major position, which I served in Task Force Sinai in the Sinai Peninsula of Egypt from 2016 to 2017. And upon returning from that assignment, I worked up at USASOC as an action officer for the Commanders Initiatives Group. And then I assumed my current position as a 95th Brigade Command Sergeant Major. Wow.

00:06:07    SPEAKER_04
That's an awesome... careers director that you've had. So how many total years in service now since 1992, I guess, right?

00:06:16    SPEAKER_03
Right. So I've got about 27 in July 9th. I'll hit 27 years.

00:06:21    SPEAKER_04
Wow. That's awesome. Now, a lot of listeners are probably familiar with the first sergeant and maybe the battalion sergeant major. What are the responsibilities for the brigade command sergeant major and your job in the 95th?

00:06:35    SPEAKER_03
My principal duties as a brigade command sergeant major are what they are outlined in the AR -600 -20, which is to advise a commander on the performance, training, appearance, and conduct of the brigade. I'm also responsible for enforcement of Army policies and standards and administering the unit's non -commissioned officer development program. So what that translates down to in my eyes is I'm the commander's wingman. I'm 100 % committed to making sure my commander is successful, and I take a lot of personal pride in understanding his intent and then taking the initiative and providing guidance and direction to the force to meet his intent. Colonel Burnett, the 95th Civil Affairs Brigade Commander, and I had the privilege of serving together for two years as a battalion command team in the 81st Civil Affairs Battalion. which meant we didn't need to spend a whole lot of time getting to know each other when we began our current roles together. In general, the CSM is very similar to the role of the first sergeant and the role of the team sergeant. I see the role of non -commissioned officers abroad at every echelon as being the agile member of the team that provides balance and fills in the gaps wherever it's needed to accomplish the day -to -day business of the organization.

00:07:53    SPEAKER_00
the organization.

00:07:55    SPEAKER_03
get the training validation complete, and really enforce and uphold the standards of the organization. This allows the commander to focus on providing direction to the organization, whether that be at the team, company, battalion, brigade, or higher levels.

00:08:12    SPEAKER_04
Okay. Can you describe the relationship then, so between the brigade and the battalion sergeant major, sergeant's major? and what kind of direction or guidance you may provide to them, or does that come from their battalions only?

00:08:27    SPEAKER_03
So really the most critical relationship, although we're all one team, the most critical relationship in those command teams is between the command sergeant's major and that commander. So while I provide guidance and direction to the battalion command sergeant's majors and provide them guidance on how to accomplish the commander's intent, Really, they take their marching orders from their battalion commanders, who in turn take their battalion commander, take their marching orders from the brigade commander. So we are, the NCO support channel is almost an auxiliary channel that is there to support the chain of command. We have absolutely consistent and constant communication between the battalion command sergeants, Major and myself. We talk on a daily basis. They keep me abreast of issues within their formations that I sort of coalesce and provide that feedback to my brigade commander.

00:09:26    SPEAKER_04
Okay. Now, you've been with the 95th now for a while, as you've just described. What would you say is an elevator pitch or a capabilities brief for the 95th overall?

00:09:36    SPEAKER_03
Well, that's a great question. Several aspects to that. First is who we are. We're warriors, problem solvers. and regional cultural experts focused on the human component of the land domain in support of the geographic commanders, U .S. ambassadors, and at the end, the nation's priorities. But it's what we do as a brigade, and those break down into three key tasks, civil reconnaissance, civil and unified action partner engagement, and human network analysis. So our brigade has recently... refocus on developing our metal, and we currently have five tasks that are metal brigade metal tasks, and those are establish a civil affairs task force, conduct human network analysis, coordinate unconventional warfare, coordinate foreign internal defense, and coordinate foreign humanitarian systems operations. And the battalion metals are coalesced. in a line to support that brigade medal, which is passed further down into the guidance that the battalions give to their companies for their training. So we're trying to get to a sustained readiness model where it's medal -based, evaluated and validated against performance metrics that support the medal, as opposed to solely mission -focused training for an upcoming mission.

00:11:10    SPEAKER_04
You started out in the 96th, and the 95th Brigade grew out of that 96th Battalion in 2007. How many battalions are there currently under the 95th, and aren't they regionally aligned? Could you talk about those battalions and their regional alignments? Absolutely.

00:11:29    SPEAKER_03
So when I arrived to Civil Affairs, it was the 96th, and there were regionally aligned companies within the 96th. The Quadrennital Defense Review outlined the growth of civil affairs across the Army and directed the growth of the 95th Civil Affairs Brigade. And then we immediately went into growing the 96th into a brigade organization. And the brigade was actually activated in 2007. And it rapidly grew from one battalion into... five regionally aligned battalions that we have today. And those are the 91st Civil Affairs Battalion, which is focused on Africa and regionally aligned with Africa. The 92nd Civil Affairs Battalion, which is regionally aligned with Europe. The 96th Civil Affairs Battalion, which is regionally aligned with the CENTCOM AOR. The 97th Civil Affairs Battalion, which is regionally aligned with the Indo -PACOM Theater. And the 98th Civil Affairs Battalion, which is regionally aligned with Southcom. So they're focused on South and Central America.

00:12:43    SPEAKER_04
Would you say that the battalions will flex, grow a little bit as needed if there's more focus on CENTCOM AOR as opposed to AFRICOM, for example? Or now we're doing a lot of work in the Indo -PACOM area, so does 95th get more focus based on whatever the 95th? you know, hires telling the 95th and the 1st Special Forces Command and saying, hey, 95th, we need you to flex in this area more than others.

00:13:09    SPEAKER_03
So we're very, very focused on getting our civil affairs officers and NCOs regionally aligned by the battalions that they've been trained and educated for their language, their regional analysis and studies into those battalions. Each battalion has six line companies in a battalion with five civil affairs teams. And really based on the global employment requirements, we feel that we're right -sized right now to meet the requirements for contingency plans and persistent engagements throughout if we're manned to 100%. Roger.

00:13:55    SPEAKER_03
Some theaters require more teams than others. So while we do not like to break regional alignment, there's times that we have to. And we're going to, instead of piecemealing personnel and breaking their regional alignment and sending them into battalions and companies that are not regionally aligned, what we're looking at doing now for some mission sets in theaters is to deploy a company outside of their regionally aligned AOR. to augment those theaters an example would be in in centcom the 96 has a has a heavy requirement for civil military score elements uh within the centcom aor and they've been going pretty hard and heavy for the past uh past 16 years in the in the centcom aor right um we are now looking at taking rotating in companies from other battalions to pick up some of those missions within the CENTCOM AOR, specifically the combat -oriented missions that may be best suited compared to the civil -military support element missions for somebody that is not specifically regionally aligned to the CENTCOM AOR. Yeah,

00:15:11    SPEAKER_04
that's a good idea. So I've seen the public information on the website for the 95th that says that it's been in the process of growing, right? From 2017, there were about 1 ,200 soldiers to more than 1 ,800. Did that happen? Did that growth take effect?

00:15:28    SPEAKER_03
Well, we did get a good bit of that growth completely. We've sort of settled right now at about 1 ,700 soldiers, civilians within our brigade. We're not projecting any growth in the near future. And with minor exceptions, we seem to be about the right size to meet our current mission requirements. We've got 150 regionally aligned deployable civil affairs teams, 30 companies and five battalions that are able to meet the theater, special operations command, and geographic command and commander requirements. Wher
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44min
September 01, 2019 35: Justin Richmond on the Impl.Project
Welcome to One CA Podcast. Today, we welcome Justin Richmond, who describes the Impl. Project, a non-profit Justin founded which brings together professional expertise from the fields of diplomacy, development, and technology. The Impl. The project is known for community-led, data-driven solutions for international development and stability.
Connect with Justin Richmond on LinkedIn.
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Transcript:
00:00:00    SPEAKER_04
These communities have an incredibly high threshold, a high tolerance for insecurity. So if they're the ones saying that it's dangerous, that's pretty bad. It's kind of like if people on the south side of Chicago were saying, man, security is really a big issue. You're like, wow, this isn't like rural America. This isn't like suburbia. You guys have lived in an insecure environment for a long time. If you're saying that this is bad even by your own standards, then why? We got to unpack why.

00:00:39    SPEAKER_01
Hi, welcome to the 1CA Podcast. My name is John McElligot, your host for today's episode. We're joined today by Justin Richman. He is the founder and executive director of Imple Project. Before starting Imple Project, Justin worked as a forward -deployed engineer at Palantir Technologies. where he led field implementation during both the Typhoon Haiyan and Typhoon Hagapit responses in the Philippines. Previously, he served two tours in Afghanistan as USAID's District Stability Framework Coordinator, mentoring joint civilian -military Afghan teams on stabilization implementation in eastern Afghanistan. Prior to USAID, he served in the Army as a Special Operations Team Leader in the southern Philippines, focusing on stabilization, counterinsurgency, and information operations. Justin Richman, welcome to the 1CA Podcast.

00:01:28    SPEAKER_04
Thanks, John. I appreciate you having me.

00:01:30    SPEAKER_01
And we'll note for the audience that you're on daddy duty right now, recording from a park somewhere in the country, and we appreciate your time.

00:01:39    SPEAKER_04
Of course. Happy to do it.

00:01:41    SPEAKER_01
We want to talk about what you're doing at Imple Project. And for our listeners, that's spelled I -M -P -L. You said you pronounce it simple without the S.

00:01:53    SPEAKER_04
That's right. And looking back, I think I probably could have done a better job on the branding. But I wanted to make it pretty simple and straightforward. The focus of the organization is implementation and execution of tasks on the ground. I think the biggest frustration I had with civil society when I was both in the military and with USAID was there's always just so much talk and people aren't getting out there in the tough places and doing the hard work. That's the reason we started the NGO.

00:02:22    SPEAKER_01
That's awesome. Well, that was leading to my question about the mission. So that's how you started it. What would you say is the mission of the organization?

00:02:31    SPEAKER_04
So, yeah, the mission of the organization is really to focus on, like, sustainable, solid development work in the most vulnerable communities. So the gaps that we identified, myself, the other founders, one of whom was a civil affairs. officer back in the time leading up to 2010. The gaps that we identified were, number one, a lack of bad work, a lack of really understanding what the local communities needed and how to deliver it. The next thing that we saw, though, was that civil society wasn't doing a very good job at all of identifying which communities needed their work the most. I think anybody who's been deployed... can honestly look at their deployment and say, my goodness, we did a few good things, but I don't know if we did it in the right areas. Getting State Department, USAID, NGO partners to program alongside civil affairs teams has just been really difficult, partly because civil affairs teams tend to operate much farther beyond the comfort zone, the safety zone of civil society. So those are the gaps that we're looking to address, and I think we're doing a pretty good job.

00:03:45    SPEAKER_01
That's great. So I think that helps to answer a follow -up question I was going to have, which is how is the Imple Project different from other development nonprofits? So what are you doing that's new or better than others?

00:03:56    SPEAKER_04
A number of things. And I don't feel arrogant saying that. The places that we work, we have better data, we have better fundamental understanding of what's going on in these communities. It's partly because when I came out of Afghanistan, my biggest bone to pick was how we were doing work. was that we were spending so much money, but we really didn't understand the communities that we were working in. Even key terrain districts, which were strategic priorities, we just really didn't understand it. Outside of a couple people sharing some anecdotes, that's it. People will talk about the notes that they took at Ashura, and they spent $3 million according to those notes. I mean, that's not a representative sample of the community. So we really built this. After USAID, I went to Palantir for two years to really learn how to do data. And it was a great lesson for me.

00:04:42    SPEAKER_00
USAID, I went

00:04:47    SPEAKER_04
lesson for me. Granted, I kind of stuck out like a sore thumb, a 35 -year -old combat vet working at a Silicon Valley company. But it was a great experience. And that was what kind of led us to say, we can apply these things very rigorously with a live NGO. So let's try. That's cool. So the data side of it's huge.

00:05:10    SPEAKER_04
There's two more aspects that I think are pretty unique. One is that we work in really non -permissive environments. So we were the first international NGO back in Benghazi. In fact, this time last year, I had a team. Sorry, my son's really excited about going down the slide. Yeah, this time last year, I took a team of six expats into Benghazi, hired 45 Libyans, and we did the largest data mapping. of Benghazi ever 4500 face -to -face surveys another two three dozen focus group discussions key leader engagements and had a better understanding of the dynamics of Benghazi than anyone period so like we're able to create data scale really really quickly and work in areas that are really really tough so and these clients are for DoD USAID

00:06:03    SPEAKER_01
these clients are for DoD USAID

00:06:06    SPEAKER_04
across the board. Right now, if you were to look at our funding structure, it is pretty much even between State Department, USAID, DOD, and then private sector firms. We are waiting on a couple procurements right now that will then upset the balance. It looks like DOD is going to come out on top, and that's probably the thing that, that's the third thing that makes this kind of special. We will partner much more closely with... U .S. military or post -nation military than almost any other NGO that I know of will. And the reason is because we're not neutral. We completely believe that that's an antiquated paradigm. And I'll work with the military. I'll work with whomever is working in the best interest of the community. That's where my allegiance lies. Of the local community.

00:06:56    SPEAKER_01
the local community. Okay. Even if that's against U .S. interests.

00:07:00    SPEAKER_04
It usually isn't. I've never run into an example of where what's in the best interest of the community was not in the best interest of the United States. Now, the thing that I run into more often than that is when the U .S. doesn't know what the community actually wants, what they need, and so they don't know what the interests of the community are. That's the thing that I run into the most because, quite frankly, the people that are making a lot of decisions, whether it's the AOB, it's the SOTUS, it's the embassy, they almost never... They almost never get out to these rural communities. And we were working in Tillaberry, Niger, two weeks before the SF guys were killed there last year, or I guess almost a year and a half ago now in Tongo Tongo. So we were working in Tillaberry, and it was a really, really rough environment. And the problem was, you know, for us. We were telling people how dangerous it was, but people weren't really spending enough time with communities to get the sort of buy -in that they needed to have the type of protection. And essentially people telling them like, hey, today's a good day to come out here or today is a horrible day to come out here. Don't do it. There's a lot of bad guys waiting for you. So, you know, and that's one of the reasons that... we're able to operate in these environments is because we're closely partnered with the communities themselves. And whether they like U .S.

00:08:16    SPEAKER_03
And whether

00:08:17    SPEAKER_04
they like U .S. forces or not, they like us because we're actually bringing value. And once again, as a civil affairs person, civil affairs teams are able to bring value where other military assets are not.

00:08:30    SPEAKER_01
Good point. Let me ask you one other question, then we'll go to break. You talk about data collection. There are a lot of tools for data collection. So what does Invol use, and what kind of difficulties have you seen in infrastructure around the world when you're trying to collect data in remote areas?

00:08:47    SPEAKER_04
Sure. This is an easy question. It's actually a softball for me. So, look, when it comes to data collection, people need to understand what is the point, what is the so what that they're trying to get out of any sort of data collection. So, like, we have standardized our hardware. We use all. apple ipads or iphones we use commercial software to do the data collection it's able to do it disconnected so that that application is called a quick tap survey and then we also put that data into the socom instance of palantir nipper so like that's kind of the way we string all this together you know all this stuff has to work every time so if you're doing data collection first off if you're doing it by paper and pen you're already wrong because the time and energy you're going to waste coding that data into a spreadsheet is just waste of time it's No one's got the time and energy to do that, so having something that you can essentially do all the data management and knowledge management online in the cloud, that's exactly where you want to be. So those are the tools we use, and we spend a lot of time testing this. I mean, rural Niger, 2 ,300 surveys in 10 days. In Benghazi, Libya, 4 ,400 face -to -face in, I think, 15 days. And the reason that we were able to create that data scale is because we spent so much time honing the actual process.

00:10:13    SPEAKER_01
Yeah. Wow, that's a lot of output. It is. But this is the thing.

00:10:17    SPEAKER_04
is the thing. If you, as a CA Bob, would come up to me and say, hey, look, I'm really interested in opening Benghazi up again. But, you know, the funding stream that we're talking about is only focused on youth. How much do we have for youth? Then from that 4 ,400, if I start disaggregating, you can say, you know, or I can say to you, well, you know. Of the 4 ,400, 2 ,400 are under the age of 30. So we still have enough data scale and just samples that we can make some really good analysis based upon that data. Whereas if you only do 1 ,000 surveys and you're now only looking at doing women, well, you're now down to 500. Or you're only doing youth and you're at like 600.

00:10:59    SPEAKER_01
Yeah, for all the Barrick statisticians, you need enough sample size and the power of the data you're collecting to be able to extrapolate.

00:11:07    SPEAKER_04
You really do. And the problem is that, number one, the U .S. government doesn't know how to procure data collection at all. It's horrible at it. It doesn't know how to set the proper requirements. They don't know what it looks like. And so, in fact, we're getting called in for a certain monitoring and evaluation baseline. and a program assessment for a USAID project. And they're like, yeah, you know, we're happy with a, you know, a 99 % confidence interval with a 6 % margin of error. And I was like, really? Like you spent millions of dollars on that project and you're comfortable with that? Because I'm not. When we were in Benghazi, we had a 99 % confidence interval with a less than 2 % margin of error. If I'm going to be operating in a really dangerous place and spending other people's money, I want to have a really... good understanding that, like, this is what the dads say. This is how we can help communities.

00:12:00    SPEAKER_01
That's good use of American taxpayer dollars.

00:12:03    SPEAKER_04
Well, I mean, we've all seen when people have been bad stewards. So, you know, we're absolutely trying to correct that. And the good news is when you have that much data scale, you can come back to it. Like, if there are other questions, you know, we can come back and ask these things after the fact. We thought working with the youth was going to be a really good idea. Man, it turns out the women are the real power placer in this community. Can we go back and we look at what the women say? Well, yeah, when you collect enough data, you can. And you can really start doing first order, second order, third order planning and set those benchmarks that all programs require. Good deal.

00:12:41    SPEAKER_01
deal. Folks, you've been listening to an interview with Justin Richman, founder and executive director of Imple Project. We'll be right back and ask Justin about... the experiences with projects in the Philippines and the Democratic Republic of Congo. Stay tuned.

00:12:59    SPEAKER_01
Do you want to make some money? Do you have an idea about how to better integrate civil affairs? If you do, then check out the Civil Affairs Association Call for Papers. Civil affairs integration surfaced as the forefront issue for the future development of the regiment at the conclusion of last year's discussion at the Washington, D .C. Roundtable. However, in order for civil affairs to become a better joint force for integration across multiple domains in human geography, the regiment must first better integrate itself, then with those it works for, by, with, and through. The Civil Affairs Association and its partners invite civil military professionals to send an originally written issue paper by no later than the close of business
...more
35min
August 15, 2019 34: Alexandra Lamarche on Internally Displaced People in Cameroon
Welcome to One CA Podcast. Today we welcome Alexandra Lamarche, Advocate for Sub-Saharan Africa at Refugees International, discusses the internally displaced people and humanitarian crisis in Cameroon.
Alexandra was interviewed by J. David Thompson in his first episode as One CA podcast host. He is a Civil Affairs Major in the Army Reserve. We're so fortunate he agreed to join the One CA team! Connect with Major Thompson on LinkedIn.
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Transcript:
00:00:00    SPEAKER_00
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00:00:16    SPEAKER_01
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00:00:22    SPEAKER_03
Sounds like the flu. Did you test for COVID? Probably just allergies. I hope it's nothing serious.

00:00:25    SPEAKER_04
I hope it's nothing serious.

00:00:29    SPEAKER_01
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00:00:45    SPEAKER_02
Protecting civilians is at the core of what you do, and it's at the core of what I do, and I think that there are opportunities for us to work together in a lot of these theaters. I think that it's important for us to sort of understand how each of our organizations operate and what the limitations are, but also what the opportunities to work together are. So I beg anyone from the military who's in, you know, anywhere that there's a humanitarian context to familiarize yourself with the OSHA, always have SIGs -MILs coordination guidelines, and to figure out where the red lines are, but where the opportunities for us to work together are and to build relationships with the humanitarian community.

00:01:31    SPEAKER_03
Thank you for tuning in to the One TA Podcast. I am your host, David Thompson. With me is Alexandra Lamarche. Alexandra is an advocate for sub -Saharan Africa at Refugees International, where her work focuses on conflict, displacement crises, and peacekeeping. She led a research mission to Cameroon in March and April of 2019 to look at the internal displacement crisis and humanitarian situation there. Follow her on Twitter at Ali Lam. Alexandra, thank you for coming on the show.

00:01:58    SPEAKER_02
Thank you so much for having me. I feel like... humanitarian groups and armed forces should be spending a bit more time trying to understand the ways in which we both work, so I'm thrilled to be here.

00:02:08    SPEAKER_03
Absolutely. To get started, can you tell us a little bit about your professional and educational history that got you to where you are today?

00:02:16    SPEAKER_02
Yeah, of course. Admittedly, it was not where I was anticipating ending up, but I'm pleased to finally be where I am. I actually studied conflict and security with a focus on violent non -state actors at both the undergrad and the graduate level. And I always found sort of conflict dynamics to be very, very fascinating, but I eventually realized, sort of overcome with guilt that I should be and could be involved in addressing sort of the human consequences of conflict. eventually shifted away from conflict analysis and resolution to work to assess and report on the needs of those displaced by the very violence that I was always working on.

00:02:51    SPEAKER_03
Wow, that's really interesting. So what got you interested in refugees and then more specifically to your area, IDPs?

00:03:00    SPEAKER_02
Well, I was overcome with guilt and coming to the realization that I should be doing more to help people. I was living and working in Lebanon, and with the ongoing crisis in Syria, we were witnessing hundreds of thousands of Syrians come into Lebanon seeking safe refuge. And as I began to sort of delve into this issue of displacement, I noticed that in the context of displacement, internal displacement tends to be under the radar. If the displaced are not showing up in neighboring countries or in Western countries, more specifically, they tend to be forgotten in the eyes of the public, in the media and policymakers and international donors. You know, most of the internally displaced are often staying with host families, whether they be their own family or their friends or just complete strangers who are offering them a warm welcome. People pay less attention to them and seem to think that they don't need as much as a refugee does, but in reality, often their conditions are far worse. So as I continue to work on displacement, that tends to be my focus because, you know, my heart bleeds for under -the -radar crises.

00:04:04    SPEAKER_03
Absolutely. I think the recent report from the United Nations Refugee Agency stated that there were nearly twice as many IDPs as there are refugees.

00:04:14    SPEAKER_02
Yeah, there's 41 .3 million IDPs worldwide. So that's a pretty significant portion of people if you consider it. I mean, I'm from Canada, and there's, what, 36 million people in Canada? So more than the entire population of Canada is internally displaced in whatever country they come from.

00:04:29    SPEAKER_03
country they come from. If you add up the populations of IDPs with refugees, including Palestinian refugees, it's like the populations of California and Texas combined. So pretty staggering numbers.

00:04:45    SPEAKER_02
Staggering numbers that, I mean, surprisingly, the world continues to turn a blind eye to, unfortunately. We're talking about it. We're not doing very much.

00:04:54    SPEAKER_03
Well, that gives us into Refugees International, where you work, which is a really unique organization in that they do not take any funding from the U .S. government or the United Nations Refugee Agency, UNHCR. Can you tell us more about the work of Refugees International?

00:05:12    SPEAKER_02
Yeah, Refugees International advocates for life -saving assistance and protection for displaced populations and promotes solutions to these very crises. We're not affiliated with any government. We don't accept any government funding or UN funding, which allows us to ensure the independence and credibility of our work. And that's something that I find extremely valuable in the crisis where I work in Africa, where, you know, there's a lot of government crackdown in NGOs. We get to come in and be an independent voice.

00:05:29    SPEAKER_00
that's something

00:05:38    SPEAKER_02
without fearing getting kicked out of the country or having our operations blocked. And we're also not tied to any of the international donors so we can be critical and target them in our advocacy. So our business model is that we conduct fieldness and two crises, assess the needs of the displaced and how effectively they're being addressed by the humanitarian community, and then provide policy recommendations on how to better protect and better provide for those affected. And then, you know, there's a long advocacy period after a report is published on that mission where we push for, you know, policymakers within governments and UN agencies to hopefully enact those recommendations.

00:06:05    SPEAKER_04
know,

00:06:09    SPEAKER_04
that mission

00:06:12    SPEAKER_04
know,

00:06:17    SPEAKER_02
So we continue to engage on the crises well after we've left them.

00:06:21    SPEAKER_03
Who were your main audiences post -report during that advocacy period?

00:06:26    SPEAKER_03
during that advocacy period?

00:06:29    SPEAKER_02
That definitely changes from country to country or crisis to crisis. Obviously, the U .S. government is always the main target, given the fact that we're based in Washington. But we're seeing an increasing amount of time that our advocates are spending in other capitals, you know, in Geneva, especially because a lot of U .N. agencies are based there, in New York because other U .N. agencies are based there, in Canada, and, of course, in Brussels with the EU being based there. I work in a lot of Francophone African countries. There's a lot more interest from other Francophone countries.

00:06:42    SPEAKER_04
of time

00:07:05    SPEAKER_02
of a mix depending on the context and depending who the key players are.

00:07:10    SPEAKER_03
Wow, so a very diverse group there. But let's talk more specifically about your recent trip to Cameroon. So recently you conducted research for Refugees International in Cameroon. Can you provide us a background of the situation or a history of the conflict that got us to the present day?

00:07:28    SPEAKER_02
Yeah, of course. Cameroonian has long been viewed as a model for stability in the region fraught with conflict. I mean, it's a pretty rough neighborhood, you know, surrounded by Chad, Congo, Central African Republic, and Nigeria. And it's always been sort of economically a little bit more developed and far more stable given the fact that it has, what, 200 different linguistic groups. However, under the surface... Tensions between its Anglophone and its Francophone populations have been simmering for decades. The Anglophone minority, which is mostly concentrated in the northwest -southwest regions of the country, has long been marginalized, discriminated against, and economically disenfranchised since the referendum that ended federalism and joined the two populations under one country in 1972. In recent history, in 2016, that instability... And that tension sort of gave way to violence when protests against the government's imposition of Francophone teachers and lawyers in Anglophone schools and courts were met with military action. What we witnessed was peaceful protests being met with pretty extreme violence from the Cameroonian military, and that sort of just fueling separatist sentiment that was bubbling under the surface, but not nearly as strong as it is now. Armed groups have since sort of... Multiplied and enforced school boycotts were about to approach the third year of children not attending school. And the subsequent violent confrontations between the armed groups and the armed forces have forced more than half a million people to leave their homes and 1 .3 million people in need of assistance.

00:08:58    SPEAKER_00
the armed

00:09:00    SPEAKER_02
than half a million people to leave their homes and 1 .3 million people in need of assistance. So it's pretty big numbers. pretty fast as well. We saw those numbers pretty skyrocket over the last year. Both our groups in Cameroonian forces have targeted civilians and blocked humanitarian groups from reaching those in need, and it's a truly dire situation. But with the right pressure and the right elbow grease, I think we can initiate some change.

00:09:26    SPEAKER_03
Wow, those numbers you're talking, 500 ,000 displaced, 1 .3 million in need of assistance. And that seems to be a common thing where Governments respond to peaceful protesters by using violence, and then it creates more problems for the government and the people.

00:09:47    SPEAKER_02
It does. I mean, you know, I can't go back in time and see what would have happened, but I don't think the crisis would be nearly as bad or the violence even from armed groups would be nearly what it is right now if the armed forces hadn't responded the way they had. But that's just my own. Absolutely.

00:10:09    SPEAKER_03
So from reading your report and hearing you talk, I noticed the tension between the government of Cameroon providing support for refugees fleeing violence from Boko Haram while simultaneously denying access to IDPs. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

00:10:25    SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it sort of goes against Cameroon's sort of longstanding reputation in the region as being fairly welcoming of refugees from neighboring countries. I mean, it has a relatively long history of welcoming people from neighboring conflicts. It still hosts, you know, scores of Central Africans in the east, and it's, you know, has obviously been grappling with the issue of Boko Haram with displaced Nigerians and also Cameroonians up in the area called the Extreme North around the Lake Chad Basin where Boko Haram operates. However, The access that has been afforded to humanitarian groups in those regions is much better.

00:11:05    SPEAKER_02
It has not been hindering humanitarian access in those areas the way that it has almost completely done in the Anglophone areas.

00:11:11    SPEAKER_02
not been hindering humanitarian access in those areas the way that it has almost completely done in the Anglophone areas. A group present in the northwest -southwest, you're speaking out against the governments and have reported that after they've publicly reported on the extent of the means that the government authorities have blocked their access to populations, not only the Anglophone populations, the northwest, southwest, but also in the extreme north. So there's, you know, some pretty significant intimidation from the government on that front. And some international governments have been calling for unrestricted humanitarian access, but frankly, these calls have been pretty weak. And the government's negative role in the conflict goes beyond blocking access. The government is perpetrating violence against the civilian population. It is repeatedly demanded that international NGOs and UN agencies publicly state that they support government forces. And if they did that, then they would provide them unrestricted access. But this would be against humanitarian principles, and that's not a possibility for a lot of humanitarian groups.

00:12:19    SPEAKER_03
Do you want to make some money? Do you have an idea about how to better integrate civil affairs? If you do, then check out the Civil Affairs Association Call for Papers. Civil affairs integration surfaced as the forefront issue for the future development of the regiment at the conclusion of last year's discussion at the Washington, D .C. Roundtable. However, in order for civil affairs to become a better joint force for integration across multiple domains in human geography, the regiment must first better integrate itself. then with those it works for, by, with, and through. The Civil Affairs Association and
...more
28min
August 01, 2019 33: Jamie Schwandt on Swarm Intelligence, Swarm Learning, and Red Teams
Welcome to One CA Podcast. Today we have Jamie Schwandt, Major in the Army Reserve, talks about swarm intelligence, swarm learning, red teams, and how they relate to Civil Affairs. We also discuss lessons learned from Ender's Game. Major Schwandt is a prolific writer. Learn more about him and his ideas at https://www.jamieschwandt.com/
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Transcript:
00:00:00    SPEAKER_01
Being afraid, my third point was leaders' fear that they would expose as frauds.

00:00:44    SPEAKER_04
Welcome to the 1CA Podcast. My name is John McElligot, your host for today's episode. We're joined by special guest Major Jamie Schwand. He's a maverick, critical thinker, leader, and innovator. He challenges the status quo. He's a Lean Six Sigma Master Black Belt Red Team member for the Department of the Army. He's an accomplished writer, publishing in military journals, magazines, and blogs, including the Army Magazine. It's published by AUSA, a partner organization of the Civil Affairs Association. MOA, the Military Officers Association of America, and Task and Purpose. He is the recipient of the Douglas MacArthur Military Leadership Writing Award, sponsored by the Douglas MacArthur Foundation in Norfolk, Virginia, and administered by the Center for Army Leadership. Major Schwan is also the recipient of the Command General Staff College CGSC Iron Pen Award. He is an adjunct professor at the Robbins College of Business and Entrepreneurship in the Department of Health and Human Performance. at the Fort Hayes State University, where he teaches. He's also the 2016 Young Alumni of the Year Award recipient at Fort Hayes. Major Schwant received his doctorate in education from Kansas State University and his MS and BS from Fort Hayes. He has published several books, including Succeeding as a Foster Child, a workbook, Finding Your Hero, and Succeeding as a Foster Child. Major Jamie Schwant, thank you very much for being on the 1CA podcast. talk with you about the writing you've done over the last several years, some of the more current stuff, and your background as a logistician for the Army, how that may relate to critical thinking applied to the Army and applied to civil affairs. So, sir, I wanted to start with a question about swarm learning. Some people may not have heard about that term before. You've written a lot about swarm learning and swarm intelligence. And I know that the term relates to large groups of insects. So what does swarm learning mean?

00:03:59    SPEAKER_01
example, an ant colony would use because it's completely autonomous, really. It's decentralized. There is no, you know, the queen ant doesn't give commands. Ants, you know, they'll go searching for food, for example. They'll shoot pheromones. Another ant will find those pheromones if it's strong enough, and they'll go to a food source, and they'll deplete that food source. Then they'll spread out, you know, spurs, and shoot more pheromones, you know, kind of like that, and they use simple rules. simplicity underlies complexity, simple rules, instead of complete command and control. And I wrote a piece that was discussing this idea with mission command, where I kind of argued that mission command is essentially swarm intelligence. But without going down a rabbit hole or in a rant, that's kind of the gist of swarm learning.

00:04:48    SPEAKER_04
Okay. How did you come up with the concept? Why was it in the forefront of your mind and in the connection to the military?

00:07:38    SPEAKER_04
It sounds like, I mean, some of that is very historical, looking at the Socratic method, where you may have someone who's an instructor just facilitating thinking, and I don't know if Socrates had all the answers, right? But his approach to students was to facilitate their discussion, and he wasn't always the person, certainly didn't have PowerPoint, but if he did, I don't think he would have used it. He would have just facilitated a discussion in the class.

00:08:50    SPEAKER_04
So that's at college, university level. Normally, as a professor, you would have to submit your syllabus, approved by the department, and, you know, under the auspices of that college, and therefore the provost is for the university, and you're locked in sort of to that syllabus for the semester of that session. How can you, do you have the latitude within a college or university system to adjust course during that semester? You know, I've never asked for...

00:09:53    SPEAKER_04
question sir because it might be difficult

00:09:54    SPEAKER_01
question sir because it might be

00:10:24    SPEAKER_04
That's really good to hear. Yeah, I asked that question to lead into my next one because it seems to me like professional military education, PME, is built on the same model for civilian education where professors have to submit their syllabus and for the PME courses that listeners may have gone through or will be going through, it's pretty rigid. And when you talk about taking command and control out of the classroom or reducing it somehow, That is inherent with the military structure. So would you propose that PME shift to the model that you're talking about, and how would that happen?

00:12:29    SPEAKER_04
that's where we're starting here. I want to encourage people to go to your website to find out more about swarm learning and read what you've already published. Sir, you wrote, quote, swarm learning not only teaches students to be comfortable with ambiguity, it weaponizes it, end quote. So could you describe that and offer some examples?

00:15:04    SPEAKER_04
It does, and I think that's the added value of why students are paying to be in person and learn from an instructor like yourself, to stretch their mind, to think outside the box, and to hear new ideas. Folks, you've been listening to an interview with Jamie Schwann, U .S. Army major, logistician, and author. We're going to come back and talk to him about how this is connected possibly with Ender's Game, a popular book, and to connect the concepts of swarm learning and swarm intelligence with red teams.

00:15:39    SPEAKER_04
Do you want to make some money? Do you have an idea about how to better integrate civil affairs? If you do, then check out the Civil Affairs Association Call for Papers. Civil affairs integration surfaced as the forefront issue for the future development of the regiment at the conclusion of last year's discussion at the Washington, D .C. Roundtable. However, in order for civil affairs to become a better joint force for integration across multiple domains in human geography, the regiment must first better integrate itself. then with those it works for, by, with, and through. The Civil Affairs Association and its partners invite civil military professionals to send an originally written issue paper by no later than the close of business Friday 30 August. To better assist authors, you can find recent papers, reports, and articles, as well as an array of cited references and historical documents, and the new online research library under the association website page, Resources. You can also call upon the new Publications Advisory Board for assistance. They'll help you in crafting the argument for your paper. The top five papers will appear in the 2019 -20 Civil Affairs issue papers, and authors will present them at the CA Symposium in Tampa, Florida in October. First prize is $1 ,000, second prize $500, and third prize $250. Good luck to all the authors.

00:17:09    SPEAKER_04
Welcome back to our interview with Major Jamie Schwant. Sir, I wanted to talk to you about swarms and preparing students. Those ideas were popular in Orson Scott Card's famous book, Ender's Game, where it had very young students brought together. They had been pre -selected by society and the military to train them at a higher level. They were fighting against these ant -like formics, and the student leader, Ender Wiggin, was the young warrior who succeeded in ambiguity. Did you get ideas for the swarm learning or swarm intelligence from books like these?

00:18:26    SPEAKER_04
I think it's still required learning for officers in the Marine Corps. I think when they're junior officers, tactical level, it's a book that the Commandant in the Marine Corps encourages Marines to read. That would make sense. It seems like the Marines have that.

00:18:40    SPEAKER_01
that. I love what they have to read.

00:18:43    SPEAKER_04
Yeah, exactly. And there are follow -up books to that. They had several books that Orson Scott Card put out after Ender's Game that carries through time and space, and then the popular movie that came out several years ago. Sir, I wanted to ask you if there are any parts of the military already succeeding with the ideas of swarming or swarm intelligence, whether it's people or technology. I guess I don't know the answer to that. I'm assuming there are.

00:19:09    SPEAKER_01
I mean, you look at some of the swarming robotics or some of the AI that's coming out. I know that I just read something on the U .K. the other day about adopting swarming AI and robotics. I know the military, I can't remember what the U .S. military has.

00:19:55    SPEAKER_04
Sir, I want to try to connect these concepts to red teams. You've gone through the red teaming program at Fort Leavenworth, which is amazing from everyone who's attended. I've heard it's a really good thing. We've got the red team member courses, the red team leader course, which is more involved and more lengthy. So if we can try to frame red teams for the audience right now, who are they? What do red teams do? Where do they operate? And why do they exist?

00:22:06    SPEAKER_04
I wanted to ask you where they operate. They're typically like a staffing element, right, that would support the planting cell.

00:22:55    SPEAKER_04
Okay, so that's connected to an article that you wrote, published in Task and Purpose, titled Five Irrational Reasons Why Military Leaders Hate Red Teaming. What are those five reasons?

00:23:06    SPEAKER_01
I forgot about that one. Sorry, go ahead. What did you say?

00:23:08    SPEAKER_04
Yeah. Sir, can you talk about what those five reasons are? And then the last question we'll get to to close it out is a connection you may see between swarm learning, swarm intelligence, and red teams. Possibilities for it.

00:26:38    SPEAKER_04
the swarm learning, the swarm thinking could be really tied well with red teaming. You just don't know if it is formally right now.

00:27:28    SPEAKER_04
Makes sense. Well, sir, I think we could leave it there. This has been an eye -opening discussion for me to learn more about swarm learning and swarm intelligence. I hope the listeners can go to your website, which is jamieschwant .com, and that is spelled J -A -M -I -E -S -C -H -W -A -N -D -T .com. Your blog is named The Honey Badger, which I think is amazing. The books you've been putting out are great. I really appreciate the articles. I don't know where you find the time with your family and the work that you're doing to put out those articles, but this is the type of critical thinking the Army needs and that the Army and the Marine Corps and everyone else in civil affairs can learn a lot from your thoughts. So I would encourage everyone to go to your website, look at the publications that you've put on there and linked. And is there anything that you have for any final tips for? the listening audience of civil affairs and some of the things you may have coming up in a few months.

00:30:10    SPEAKER_04
man. Sir, I really appreciate your time. Glad you came on the 1CA podcast.

00:30:15    SPEAKER_01
Yeah, thank you.

00:30:23    SPEAKER_03
Thank you for spending some time with us. Please subscribe and come back for another installment of 1CA. Until then, be safe and secure the victory.

00:30:39    SPEAKER_00
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31min
July 15, 2019 32: Jay Liddick and Scott Dickerson on the CA Force Modernization Assessment
Colonel Jay Liddick and Lieutenant Colonel Scott Dickerson discuss the ongoing Force Modernization Assessment, its phases, and potential outcomes for Army Civil Affairs. Colonel Liddick is the CA Commandant and Lieutenant Colonel Scott Dickerson is the Chief of Concept Development, JFK Special Warfare Center and School.
...more
51min
July 01, 2019 31: Narayan Khadka on Nepal, castes, and community trauma
Narayan Khadka, PhD, discusses Nepal, the caste system, and training Army and Marine Corps Civil Affairs. Dr. Khadka is a Psychological Cultural Anthropologist, and holds a doctorate in ethnic and cultural conflict from Nova Southeastern University, and three master’s degrees in conflict resolution, political science, and law from New Delhi, Katmandu, and Greensboro, NC. Originally a refugee from civil war in Nepal, he specializes in the pathology of family and community trauma and breakdown from violent extremism and extremist identity ideology.
...more
35min
June 15, 2019 30: Jay Liddick and Scott Dickerson on CA in Large Scale Combat Operations
Welcome to the One CA Podcast. Today we have Colonel Jay Liddick, CA Commandant, and Lieutenant Colonel Scott Dickerson, Chief of Concept Development, discuss CA in large scale combat operations.
COL Liddick and LTC Dickerson co-authored with Major Linda Chung a paper titled, "Calibrating Civil Affairs Forces for Lethality in Large Scale Combat Operations. Published in Small Wars Journal, the authors argue that, in the future operating environment of Multi-Domain Operations, "CA must counter enemy hybrid warfare in the expanded battlefield, specifically in operational and tactical support areas, as part of an integrated security team through civil reconnaissance, civil network analysis, and civil network development."
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Transcript:
00:00:00    SPEAKER_00
My poor baby. Got a cough and runny nose. Any ideas? Worried mama here.

00:00:06    SPEAKER_01
Sounds like the flu. Did you test for COVID? Probably just allergies. I hope it's nothing serious.

00:00:09    SPEAKER_00
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00:00:29    SPEAKER_02
You know, I think, again, as a military, and rightfully so, we're continually looking for technological advantages.

00:00:37    SPEAKER_02
But, you know, even with AI and the things that have been done, or that have been done in the past and are, you know, working on the future, I just don't believe you can never remove the human -to -human contact. We're never going to be able to put just a sensor out there that understands exactly what people are thinking, who key players are. properly engage and address an operational environment that takes face -to -face, on -the -ground engagement to gain understanding and to influence people.

00:01:19    SPEAKER_01
Hi, and welcome to the 1CA Podcast. I am John McElligot, your host for today's episode. We're joined by a couple special guests from the Army CA proponent down in Fort Bragg, North Carolina. We have Lieutenant Colonel Thurman Scott Dickerson, U .S. Army, currently serving as the Chief of Concept Development at the CA Proponent. He began his career as an armor crewman in 1996 and was commissioned as a Medical Service Corps officer in 2000 from Radford University. He holds a Master of Science degree in Criminal Justice from Radford and a Master of Arts in Strategic Security Studies from the National Defense University. Since 2008, Colonel Dickerson has served in... Diverse conventional and special operations command and staff positions within civil affairs, to include ARSENT CMO Officer Forward, Brigade Executive Officer, and 18th Airborne Corps Deputy G -9. He has deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan multiple times, Qatar, Yemen, and served a one -year hardship tour in Kuwait. Colonel Jay Liddick, U .S. Army, currently serves as a civil affairs commandant. He received his commission as an engineer officer from Indiana University of Pennsylvania in 1995. and holds a Master of Strategic Studies from the U .S. Army War College and a Master of Arts degree in International Relations from Webster University. Since 2004, Colonel Liddick has served in diverse command and staff positions within civil affairs to include Human Resources Command CA Branch Chief, Deputy Brigade Commander, and the Civil Affairs Advisor Irregular Worker Integrator at the U .S. Army Peacekeeping and Stability Operations Institute. He is deployed to the Dominican Republic, Bosnia, Iraq, Colombia, Afghanistan and Indonesia, and had a one -year tour in Honduras. Colonel Dickerson, Colonel Liddick, thank you very much for being on the One State Podcast, and welcome.

00:03:05    SPEAKER_02
Hey, thank you, John. Really appreciate the opportunity to talk to you and the platform to talk about something we love, civil affairs.

00:03:12    SPEAKER_01
Gentlemen, we wanted to talk today about what's happening within civil affairs and how it relates to large -scale combat operations. And this discussion is really born out of an article that you wrote together with a third author. I'll note it was Linda Chung, Captain Promotable, who by now may be a major, who is also working. Oh, that's great. Well, please tell her hello and congratulations for co -authoring this article with you.

00:03:44    SPEAKER_02
We will. She's an awesome officer.

00:03:46    SPEAKER_01
That's good to hear. I'm glad to hear that also and see that you and other officers are putting out. and some thought leaders within the branch putting out some articles like this. The three of you published in Small Wars Journal an article entitled Calibrating Civil Affairs Forces for Lethality in Large -Scale Combat Operations. For analytic to you, what is going on in sort of the big picture in the Army, and what led you to wanting to write this article?

00:04:27    SPEAKER_02
unprecedented, and I think you'd have to go back to post Vietnam, late 70s, early 80s, you know, creation of TRADOC, and to see similar major changes. The Army's looking at all its processes of how do we modernize, how do we be more agile in adapting and creating the force that's going to be required in the future operating environment.

00:05:01    SPEAKER_02
But with change, there's opportunity. And from a civil affairs perspective and things that we'll get into further as we have this discussion, it's really given us the right point to take a hard look at our force and see what does the civil affairs force of the future need to look like to be integrated at an echelon to help the Army win.

00:05:07    SPEAKER_02
that we'll get into further as we

00:05:19    SPEAKER_02
of the future need to look like to be integrated at an echelon to help the Army win. You know, in competition, but like we talked about, large -scale compound operations. and then getting back into returning to competition. I tell everyone when I speak, the Army's number one warfighting challenge is situational understanding. And my personal and professional perspective on that is, in large part, it's because civil affairs have not been able to deliver our peace to situational understanding, which is, you know, providing a commander that in -depth understanding of the civil environment. article is a thought piece on things that we need to do to adapt specifically in large -scale general combat operations. But I can tell you as a proponent, we're looking hard across force modernization, training, and doctrine, and even personnel, how we develop people, of how do we provide the commanders the right civil affairs capability to need to understand the civil environment, the human geography, if you will.

00:06:44    SPEAKER_01
So, sir, your article that was published in the Small Wars Journal, it depicts the evolution going from combined arms warfare to joint warfare to what we now call hybrid warfare. What would you say about, what is it about hybrid warfare that is fundamentally changing the way that civil affairs forces need to prepare to fight in the future?

00:09:55    SPEAKER_01
Are those actions that adversaries are taking in hybrid warfare mainly in the civil domain? Are they mainly within the wheelhouse of civil affairs forces? Yes. I mean, specifically, I don't want to use specific examples, but specific actions that are being done are proxy forces,

00:10:10    SPEAKER_02
that are being done are proxy forces, special purpose forces that are utilized by a lot of conflict and also in conflict that essentially weaponize forces of the population, create the force multiplier effect for their actions. and give credence to certain political narratives that are used to undermine the will of the adversary.

00:10:26    SPEAKER_02
certain political narratives that are used to undermine the will of the adversary.

00:12:41    SPEAKER_01
So, gentlemen, does that mean that this renewed focus on hybrid warfare, does that require a shift in CA core tasks?

00:14:44    SPEAKER_01
That's good to hear.

00:14:44    SPEAKER_02
That's good to hear.

00:14:45    SPEAKER_01
I just know it takes two to three years to develop something and get it approved, and if a hybrid worker was in mind when that was drafted.

00:14:46    SPEAKER_02
know it takes

00:14:54    SPEAKER_02
It was to a degree, but I don't think to the degree we're able to bring to it with what we're working through with our force modernization assessment that we'll get into.

00:15:42    SPEAKER_01
Okay, good. Gentlemen, could you describe, please, how civil affairs forces could assist land force commanders in securing support areas? And how do we then employ the civil components protection capabilities?

00:16:30    SPEAKER_02
force multiplier for protection through

00:17:02    SPEAKER_02
worry about security.

00:22:30    SPEAKER_01
Ladies and gentlemen, you've been listening to an interview with Lieutenant Colonel Scott Dickerson, Chief of Concept Development of CA Proponent, and Colonel Jay Liddick, the CA Commandant. When we come back from the break, we'll talk with the gentlemen about how they see civil affairs as an ISR platform and some ideas for improving the network analysis capability. We'll be right back.

00:23:07    SPEAKER_01
The Civil Affairs Association continues to expand its value to its members. The Association recently established the Professional Publications Advisory Board and a supporting research library. Founded by the late Dr. Kurt Muller, retired Army colonel, the CA Association Professional Publications Advisory Board comprises scholars and policy and publications experts to assist civil affairs professionals in publishing papers and articles in established professional journals. As a service to association members, the board also provides a research library to conduct research on academic or professional papers. Check out the website to find out which board members may be of greatest help and request their assistance by emailing the board. This is an amazing resource that you will find in many other associations. If you're not yet a member of the Civil Affairs Association, go online to civilaffairsassoc .org and join today.

00:24:20    SPEAKER_01
and our interview with Lieutenant Colonel Scott Dickerson and Colonel Jay Liddick from the CA Commandant's Office. Gentlemen, how do you see civil affairs as an ISR platform as you argued in this paper that was published in Small Wars Journal?

00:26:18    SPEAKER_02
takes face -to -face, on -the -ground engagement to gain understanding and to influence people.

00:26:29    SPEAKER_01
And it's connected to a soft truth, I think the first one, that humans are more important than hardware.

00:26:33    SPEAKER_02
Absolutely. Yes.

00:26:35    SPEAKER_01
So, gentlemen, in my few years in civil affairs, I've seen and heard about a range of tools and approaches to civil network analysis. And how do you think that CA forces need to improve what we do for that network analysis capability?

00:31:06    SPEAKER_01
is in line with, we started this discussion saying that focus more on the how and not the what. And what you just mentioned connects with a previous interview we had with a gentleman named Nick Crowley who did some work in Iraq with human terrain. Nick had talked about how civil affairs forces need more of a process. So we have the SIM process. We have those steps right now. And it ends with analysis and then goes from there. You have something, you produce it, and then you disseminate. And that cycle continues over and over and over again. He was arguing in the discussion that there's not as much information telling the CA forces how to do that work. Yeah.

00:33:40    SPEAKER_01
tied to that, I guess, gentlemen, what do you think that civil affairs forces should be doing to better integrate our reports and the civil information that come out of this process to support the ground force commander staff processes? And I guess, you know, to improve that, why is that not happening now?

00:39:23    SPEAKER_01
Yes, sir. Well, this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate your time. Ladies and gentlemen, Lieutenant Colonel Scott Dickerson, the Chief of Concept Development at the CA Proponent, and Colonel Jay Liddick, Civil Affairs Commandant. Gentlemen, thank you very much for being on the 1CA Podcast.

00:39:40    SPEAKER_02
Hey, thank you, John, again. Really appreciate the platform.

00:40:01    SPEAKER_01
Thank you for spending some time with us. Please subscribe and come back for another installment of 1CA. Until then, be safe and secure the victory.

00:40:17    SPEAKER_04
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40min
June 03, 2019 29: Giancarlo Newsome and Jesse Elmore on Military Government Specialists
Welcome to the One CA Podcast. Today, Major Giancarlo Newsome and Captain Jesse Elmore discuss turning the 38G Military Government Specialist program from strategy to reality.
Their article, "Civil Affairs 38G Functional Specialists: From Strategy to Reality," tied for third place at the 2018 CA Symposium. It was published in the 2018-2019 Civil Affairs Issue Papers on "Optimizing Civil Affairs." Copies are available to download on the Civil Affairs Association website.
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Transcript:
00:00:00    SPEAKER_03
If they can dominate, let's say, a province's justice system, commerce system, we, and they are an enemy, I think the same logic and approach can be applied. And you train the generalists, just like you train military soldiers to go on patrol. The generalists are on patrol. identify targets, and just like maybe a soldier lazes a target, a generalist lazes a target for 38 goblins to come in and bring in the weapon system to take it out.

00:00:52    SPEAKER_00
Hi, and welcome to the 1CA Podcast. My name is John McElligot, your host for today's episode. We're joined by Major... John Carla Newsome and Captain Jesse Elmore, authors of a CA issue paper entitled Civil Affairs 38 Golf Functional Specialists from Strategy to Reality. And it was tied for third place among the CA issue papers from 2018. Major Newsome and Captain Elmore, welcome to the 1CA podcast. Thank you.

00:01:18    SPEAKER_03
Thank you, John.

00:01:20    SPEAKER_00
Gentlemen, I wanted to... I ask you if you could introduce yourselves to the listening audience, Major Newsom, you first. What are you doing in the CA community?

00:01:29    SPEAKER_03
Well, John, I am relatively new to the CA community, stumbled into it. My background is aviation, and I think it was kind of like discovering a hidden gem,

00:01:38    SPEAKER_03
think it was kind of like discovering a hidden gem, the Army's best -kept secret. And with my background, when I came in, the 38 Golf program, I was introduced to it, and it really fit well my background and just even my connections,

00:01:48    SPEAKER_00
in, the

00:01:54    SPEAKER_03
really fit well my background and just even my connections, and saw that it was a great strategy.

00:01:58    SPEAKER_00
my connections,

00:02:01    SPEAKER_03
that it was a great strategy. As I got more involved there, I realized that there's kind of a missing gap between connecting the strategy to reality, getting these 38 Gulf's talent as weapon systems into the hands of the 38 Alphas and the combatant commanders downrange.

00:02:03    SPEAKER_04
I got

00:02:08    SPEAKER_03
the strategy to reality, getting these 38 Gulf's talent as weapon systems into the hands of the 38 Alphas and the combatant commanders downrange. Yeah.

00:02:19    SPEAKER_00
Well, welcome to the community. I'm glad that you ran into someone who was CA or somehow got convinced to come over. Appreciate it. And Captain Elmore, how about you?

00:02:28    SPEAKER_03
Yeah, so I've been doing CA for a little while. Did a ROC deployment at the TNC for Civil Affairs 0809, and then was deployed in 1213 for a civil affairs planning team at Regional Command South in Kandahar. So the relationship between Major Newsom and I is more of a – he's got the brains on the 38 golf expertise. And I've seen firsthand the void, that gap that needs to be filled, trying to implement development things on ground, in theater, to have non -lethal and sometimes lethal effects. And not myself being an expert in a field such as – commerce or economics, et cetera. So the relationship there is one of where I have seen and felt the need for this assistance, you know, being able to phone a friend, as it were. And then Major Newsom is that expert to fill that gap, as it were, for this kind of a field.

00:03:31    SPEAKER_00
Right. Major Newsom, you're 38 golf, and Captain Elmore, you're 38 alpha, so you've got the tag team that you mentioned bringing together. Major Newsom, Could you describe for listeners who may not be familiar with 38 Golf what it means and how it differs from 38 Alpha or 38 Bravo?

00:03:49    SPEAKER_03
38 Alpha and Bravo, they're the kind of eyes and ears for civil considerations for the field, the combatant commanders on the field. They're identifying problems, threats that aren't kinetic in effect, right,

00:04:04    SPEAKER_03
to help the combatant commander realize it. his mission and achieve his lines of effort. 38 golfs are theoretically,

00:04:15    SPEAKER_03
and I say theoretically because it's not, the connection's not been made, that's kind of the point of the paper, is when that 38 golf runs into, let's say, a threat, let's say there's a power shortage, there's a water issue, there's rampant unemployment, there's law and order challenges. One of 18 different functional specialty areas that the Army has defined as potential, and I'll just define it, threat or instability areas. The 38 Alpha, the way I understand the process to work, is supposed to have reachback capability to get some expertise to help that. Today, per a paper that General Garner wrote, he was a former USKPOC commander, pretty much we just tell young captains, hey, just figure it out, go find a solution for that. power issue that commerce issue and of course our soldiers being great the good army ethos to figure it out you know take the hill with a knife we have to um they do a great job but we know that that's only a short -term result with some long -term disadvantages and i've heard it countless times from jesse and others that you know we might not got a an oer bullet that sounds good but we're we can kind of create some non -race problems and it's been a problem i've heard repeated over and over which hurts our relevancy as a branch. How did I do, Jesse? Yeah, that sounds exactly right. As a generalist of the Alpha, 30 Alpha, we can find problems. We run into them all the time on the battlefield, but we don't have necessarily the expertise to solve those problems or even fully understand them. So the bleach back to the golf that is one of those 18 specialties is a huge asset.

00:05:59    SPEAKER_03
a huge asset. point behind the paper.

00:06:03    SPEAKER_00
Yeah. So let's get to that paper. You already talked about how it's requiring a shift from a strategy to reality. Could you start by talking about the current state of the 38 Gulf program and why is it not a reality?

00:06:16    SPEAKER_03
I think the strategy that we just shared, you know, everyone nodded the vertical. Sounds great.

00:06:22    SPEAKER_03
The practical application of getting a 38 Gulf to leverage their expertise, their network support of 38 Alpha. That tactical function, the devil is in the detail, has not been worked out. So, you know, there is a process by which a unit says, I need so many, you know, M9s, M4s. And a unit acquires them, right, and gets ammunition to pay for them. There is no such structure to engage, let's say, these 38 Gulf weapon systems. Okay.

00:07:06    SPEAKER_00
Gentlemen, you described three steps to close from strategy to reality. First, you call for Army leadership not to give up on the 38 Gulf program. Second, you suggest resolving practical problems non -bureaucratically with a commercial off -the -shelf mindset and approach. And then third, you want to create an open API mobile app. So if we could start at the first step there. Do you get a sense that civil affairs or big army leadership cares for 38 golf program and will support its growth? And do you have any evidence for or against that?

00:07:40    SPEAKER_03
There is no program support for 38 golfs. There is no even informal group. Like I'm a commerce. That's my functional specialty is commerce and trade. I don't know who my peers are. I don't have a lead mentor to coach me, to share best practices. As like we do at the generalist level, there is no qualification course or even, you know, I forgot what the name of the course is, like for doctors, kind of that, you know, we bring in doctors and, you know, there's a formation course to help doctors know how to assimilate and be effective, you know, in an Army environment. Also, the IMST, Institute for Support to Military Governance, it was unfunded. So from my view, there's a missing executive champion. at senior army leaders and i just think we've you know it's uh not by anyone's intention it's just uh it's easier it seems easier to focus on the more traditional kinetic fight sure yeah okay yeah absolutely i would second i would second that too and um so my second deployment experience afghanistan regional command south was referred to as the stability platform at the regional command

00:08:43    SPEAKER_00
okay yeah

00:08:47    SPEAKER_03
my second deployment experience afghanistan regional command south was referred to as the stability platform at the regional command So it's a two -star command, and the leaf eater side of it is the stability platform, and ostensibly it's partnership with the State Department and USAID, which it was absolutely the case. But we came there as a civil affairs planning team, without gulfs,

00:09:14    SPEAKER_03
to do planning for four provinces for the future stability of the southern part of Afghanistan.

00:09:24    SPEAKER_03
And that came with all of its challenges to all the different sectors, all the 18 specialties that Major Newsome represents. And we came as a planning team, as reservists, and we didn't have on paper identified one golf. It sort of predated the program a little bit. But today, talking with colleagues that are coming out of the 95th, 96th, there's still a lack of integration of the golfs into any operational framework.

00:09:55    SPEAKER_00
Gentlemen, we have five core tasks in civil affairs. Do you think that there are some of those core tasks that are more closely aligned with 38 Gulf than others?

00:10:06    SPEAKER_03
We talked in the paper about just conceptually as the Gulf being a weapon system. So that concept as a weapon system then moves us away from some of the supports of civil authorities kind of thing. more touchy -feely parlance, and it moves us towards the real tactical find, fix, finish, and follow -through notions. And that's where Major Newton and I really connected on the topic was because he could see it from his aviation background and expertise in commerce and realized that, yeah, we have the five areas for civil affairs,

00:10:45    SPEAKER_04
we have the

00:10:46    SPEAKER_03
for civil affairs, but we're not even utilizing civil affairs in the context of action. It's really, at best, a supporting effort. And over the phases of operation, you know, we would posture that it could be a main effort. If you looked at this Gulf thing as a main weapon system, like you would look at operational deployments of main battle tanks, you know, thinking about how you're going to find, fix, and finish bad guys through civil domain. So that's a long answer to that question, but that's kind of the concept.

00:11:19    SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think it's a good idea because that's the way we need to frame it for combatant command, certainly, and Futures Command or anyone else that's been working the last couple of years on lethality and winning the fight the same way that Chief of Staff of the Army or General Lucky for the Army Reserve or anyone else who's been talking about it. We need every soldier to be ready to fight as quickly as possible to engage with and destroy the enemy, and every program needs to be aligned with that. So I think you're talking about this in the right terms. It's the question now of how to turn it from strategy to reality. When I was at the IMSG, I got a chance to work at the Institute for Military Support to Governance. We went through the .mil PFP for 38 Gulf program, and a few of the hot topics were trying to figure out the appropriate levels of war in which to embed 38 Gulf. What are your thoughts on whether 38 Gulf personnel should be used at strategic, operational, or tactical levels?

00:12:18    SPEAKER_03
Well, maybe just to kind of connect Jesse's last thought, is the enemy operates at those three levels.

00:12:25    SPEAKER_03
enemy operates at those three levels. And the enemy can be lethal in ways that don't necessarily involve kinetic guns and bullets, right? If they can dominate, let's say, a province's justice system, commerce system. We, and they are an enemy.

00:12:51    SPEAKER_03
I think the same logic and approach can be applied. And you train the generalists, just like you train infantry soldiers to, you know, to go on patrol. The generalists are on patrol in these sectors, identify targets, and just like maybe a soldier lazes a target. A generalist lays as a target for 38 Gulf to come in and bring in the weapon system to take it out. Now, obviously, it's more complex, right? And I think maybe that's the challenge we have, but it's also an enormous opportunity.

00:13:24    SPEAKER_00
Yeah. Captain Elmore, what do you think about how 38 Gulf, should they be used at all levels? And how would you weight them? So if you have 500 personnel, do you think more of them should go to the operational tactical levels or put them as strategic?

00:13:43    SPEAKER_03
forward each of those expertise is at all the levels. We have an example right now of, you know, with Venezuela, where the humanitarian list is sort of that kick -in -the -door operation. Is that tactical? Is that operational? Is that strategic? You know, the jury's out on that one, but we can see that it's something that's at all those levels. How many get weighted towards which endeavor, which level? I don't know. I know that we have, all three of us, experienced some hemming and hawing over coulda, shoulda with previous engagements, whether it's Iraq or Afghanistan, and the forethought, or maybe lack thereof, that went into those mission plans and the effects that those had, strategic and operational and tactical. I can talk, having worked at tactical and operational levels,

00:14:35    SPEAKER_03
levels, that they're slowly needed and slowly lacking. And I've seen where we weren't able to get the desired effects to support a line of effort for support commander because we couldn't solve the problems in front of us. We could identify them, but we just didn't have the ability to solv
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32min
May 03, 2019 28: Nicholas Krohley on Human Terrain and CA Integration
Welcome to One CA Podcast. Today we have Nicholas Krohley, PhD, Founder of FrontLine Advisory, and author of "The Death of the Mehdi Army," discussing human terrain and the need for better processes to integrate the mission of Civil Affairs with other military elements.
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Transcript:
00:00:01    SPEAKER_00
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00:01:00    SPEAKER_01
As soon as we took our foot off the gas and we backed off, ultimately withdrew from Iraq, it was remarkably fast that the Islamic State kind of rose up from the ashes. And it's a cautionary tale, I think, when you look at it. The money that was spent, the resources allocated,

00:01:19    SPEAKER_01
the intensity of the campaign that we took against al -Qaeda and Iraq. As soon as you stop, those gains are not consolidated by virtue of what you've been doing. It has to be linked up.

00:01:29    SPEAKER_04
It has

00:01:49    SPEAKER_03
and welcome to the 1CA podcast. My name is John McElligot, your host for today's episode. We're joined by Dr. Nicholas Crowley, who is a consultant and researcher. He's the founder of Frontline Advisory and the author of The Death of the Medi Army, the rise, fall, and revival of Iraq's most powerful militia. Nick specializes in firsthand examination of localized dynamics of conflict development and urbanization in the developing world. His work aligns strategic plans with local realities. and equips frontline operational personnel with the skill sets and local insights necessary for success. Nick had previously served as a social scientist with the Human Terrain System. He also contributed to various NATO initiatives to integrate social -cultural information into military planning and operational processes, and he was instrumental in designing and delivering research planning and collection training for the UK's Defense Cultural Specialist Unit. Nick has Ph .D. and M .A. degrees from King's College London and a B .A. from Yale University. His book, The Death of the Mighty Army, was excerpted in Foreign Affairs, reviewed in Millie's Quarterly as, quote, the best recent book on Iraq, and shortlisted by RUSI for the Duke of Westminster's Medal as Book of the Year in the Field of International Relations and Military Studies. Dr. Nick Crowley, thank you for being on the 1CA Podcast, and welcome.

00:03:11    SPEAKER_01
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

00:03:13    SPEAKER_03
Now, you're calling from London, where you're currently residing, and you've got your own firm. Where can people go to find out more information about Frontline?

00:03:21    SPEAKER_01
Yeah, if you look up frontlineadvisory .com, there's a whole overlay of business and what we do and how we do it.

00:03:28    SPEAKER_03
That's great. And where are you doing some of your work now?

00:03:32    SPEAKER_01
So our work varies. We're doing some work at Fort Bragg with CA around the concepts we'll talk about today. We're also doing some very similar work in Iraq with the Iraqi government. We're looking to develop capabilities along these lines. Then there's a commercial side of the business. And if you think about the skill sets of human terrain analysis and the idea of helping the military go into an unfamiliar environment and make sense of what's happening on the ground, we do a version of that for Western companies going into the Middle East and Africa. How do they take a local view of what matters about the human terrain, the landscape around them, socially, culturally? dealing with things like labor issues, security issues, community relations, and that sort of thing.

00:04:17    SPEAKER_03
That's great. And so that's built on your background of working in that area of operations, is that right?

00:04:23    SPEAKER_01
Yeah. So it's based around personal experience in the Middle East and North Africa, principally. And also, my work with the Army was formative in terms of how we think about... entering into difficult environments and the way we take a view on what's happening and what matters. My time with Human Terrain System was definitely a formative experience just trying to go into an environment like Iraq and figure out where do we start to look, what questions do we ask, how do we ask them, and then how do we integrate those answers into a practical decision -making process. So the lessons I took from that early experience back in 2008. has shaped what I've done since then, you know, on the military side from a training standpoint and on the commercial side, providing advisory services.

00:05:16    SPEAKER_03
That's awesome. And so you referred to some of the questions that we're going to get into. So I wanted to tell listeners about the article that sparked the interest in talking to you today. It was published by the Modern War Institute at West Point. That's part of USMA. It's entitled Moving Beyond Post -9 -11 Manhunt. translating tactical wins into strategic success. And it sounds to me very similar to what we're talking about in the CA community about consolidating gains. You've made some progress on influencing the human population for the commander's intent, moving towards some of the lines of effort and integrating civil information, for example, but how that can be translated to a higher level for strategic success. And I think that's the gist of what you're talking about in this article. Is that right?

00:06:04    SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and the word integration is key in all this. And you hit on that right there. It's how do we get all these different lines of effort joined up? And the article looks at some of the issues we've had where we develop extraordinary capabilities. And the article itself focuses on lethal targeting. We have this amazing capability, but how well are we actually joining it up with the other lines of effort that have to complement it? so that we can achieve a result. Yeah.

00:06:35    SPEAKER_03
So we'll talk about that. You argue that despite how the U .S. military has incredible efficiency in hunting and killing enemy targets, the U .S. government is just failing to turn these tactical wins into strategic success. And you argue that lethal targeting, largely through drone strikes, is something that's here to stay. And that can just continue to evolve as new technologies emerge. One article stuck out to me that you wrote, quote, a growing reliance on lethal targeting as a core instrument of foreign policy should be worrying. Why is that the case?

00:07:09    SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I mean, the short answer to that is because it hasn't worked in terms of delivering a strategic result. The lethal targeting approach, whether you talk about drones, you talk about direct action, it's here to stay, I think, because... At first glance, at least, it's a pretty good or pretty appealing solution to a lot of the asymmetric threats we're looking at in the Middle East and Africa and elsewhere. It's low profile. It's inexpensive comparatively. And we can romanticize this idea of sort of a surgical approach to counterterrorism, a surgical approach to counter -narcotics, and even aspects of stabilization. The problem is that you have to find a way to link it up elsewhere. We look at this idea. We can go in with kinetic action, lethal action, and achieve certain effects. And you look at how good we are at doing this. And the technology involved, the people involved, there are incredible capabilities there. But think about the theaters in which we've applied it. Let's think about one where it's actually delivered a result that's commensurate to our proficiency. And you just don't see it. I don't see a break away from this as an element or a core element of our approach. When you look at the frustration and the disillusionment, the return on investment we got from all the development and capacity building work done in Iraq and Afghanistan, billions of dollars were spent to very limited effect. I was in Baghdad in September. You can go around that city and challenge yourself to find the legacy of SERP spending. How many billions of dollars were spent? And the lingering effect of that are concrete T -walls. It really wasn't as effective as it ought to have been. And we can look back to, well, this didn't work and it's expensive and we don't want to do this anymore. The U .S. isn't in the nation -building business anymore. And it's tempting or it's kind of sexy as well to fall back upon this direct action approach, this lethal targeting approach to just surgically managing threats worldwide. you know, through special operations forces, through drone strikes, etc. But there's danger in that because, again, we haven't seen a result from it. And there are some examples in the article about, you know, instances in which it just didn't deliver. And, you know, what you wind up doing, you know, in the best case scenario, is this sort of never -ending whack -a -mole exercise where you're disrupting networks, like we did in Iraq during the surge, and you're keeping the enemy off balance. But at worst, you can have all kinds of unintended consequences. Civil affairs is very much in the second and third order effects business, right? And you can run these campaigns, and I talk about Mexico in the article. They ran an incredibly efficient lethal targeting campaign targeting the cartels, which had monstrous unintended consequences. We can talk about that a bit later if you want.

00:10:12    SPEAKER_03
I'm thinking back to a book that I read called The Mission the Men and Me by Pete Blaber. And he's a former Green Beret who wrote about some of his experience in training. And he talked about the need to always have a guy or gal on the ground. And despite the drone strikes that may have been called in, he felt like he needed to have someone on the ground to confirm or deny intelligence and to assist with the targeting. But to get a sense of... what enemy movements have been like and whether the local population is for or against you. And you just can't win things remotely all the time. Right. What has been your experience about having a guy or gal on the ground relating to the human terrain team or the work that you're doing now? What's the value added to that?

00:11:01    SPEAKER_01
the value added to that? I think having that human being on the ground is absolutely essential. And this is something that's sort of a big theme in the work that I do. And I was over at the staff college here in the UK yesterday, actually, talking about this to a group there. There's a big push toward, you know, the technologization, I guess, to make up a word of analysis and of intelligence and this idea that we can remotely understand what's happening to these various sensor systems and remotely man drones, et cetera. and just sort of keep our hands clean to a certain extent. My point of view is that local human eye is absolutely essential. You need someone on the ground to ask the right questions, to look at what's happening, to make sense of why things are happening, because technology and the systems we have can give us the all -seeing eye. You can have real -time coverage of all these different things, but nothing in that whole system or that system of systems enables us to make sense of it. What does it mean? We see these things happening. We see troop movements. We have various data streams on economic activity, instances of violence, etc. What does it mean? The technology and the rest can show us correlation that can identify patterns, but it can't explain any of it. And the challenge is to have someone on the ground or with access to people on the ground to get into it. Now, that's the first step to my mind. And it's easy, I think, to... not along to that if you think that way where it gets difficult is executing and this is where i remember reading the coin manual back in 2007 where you can read that and you can read the new ca manual i found it to be a very similar document where you can read it and agree and there's all these different you know assess this understand that you know remain cognizant of this monitor that there are these sort of statements of intent of things to do but how do you pivot from theory to action uh you know what do i do with you know i can sit there and think i have human terrain is a decisive terrain and the population is the center of gravity and all these great quotes but if i'm there you know in yemen on a thursday afternoon what do i do with that you know that's a big place where the human terrain system fell down is that it didn't have a systematic answer to that question you know what is the process what is the method through which When we're there on the ground, we figure out what matters. Because one of the huge challenges of any human terrain type endeavor or civil reconnaissance, whatever you want to call it, this is variations of the same thing, is where do you start? If you think about a place like Yemen or even a city, I think of a city like Mosul in Iraq. This is something I talk with the Iraqis about. How do you go into that environment and figure out what matters? How do you go in and take a view of... The fundamentals of the human terrain, what are the different things we have to be aware of? How do they relate to different objectives? How do they relate to the campaign of the enemy? There's so much going on. Knowing where to start and having a process to follow is absolutely critical. That was the biggest takeaway for me from my time with the human terrain system in operational terms. We had to develop on the fly. a process and a method you know our own system uh and then you know refine it over time by doing uh this is something that you know looking around you know
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