Parenting Teens: Advice Redefined for Today's Complex World

Okay. Welcome to another episode of Teen Minds Redefine, where we try to redefine the relationships we have with our teenagers. We want to foster them into growing into their own true authentic selves as we support and coach as opposed to demanding control. And today we are talking about empowering parents navigating body image, food freedom and parental influence over that. And I have a beautiful guest, Jane Pilger, is a compassionate advocate empowering women who struggle with food-related challenges to discover food freedom and cultivate body trust. And with a deep understanding of the complexities surrounding disordered eating and

body image issues, Jane guides women on the transformative journey from battling their bodies to embracing them as allies. Drawing upon her expertise in neuroscience, trauma-informed care, and compassionate coaching, Jane helps her clients unlock the missing link between their behaviors and their inner struggles. Her mission is to provide women with the tools and support they need to develop self-trust, understand their behaviors, and create a safe and nurturing relationship with food and their bodies. I'm so excited to have Jane here. Thank you for joining me today. Jane Miller,

MD Thank you so much, Cheryl. I'm really excited to be here today.

Me too. I think there's just so much. There's so much to talk about when it comes to body image. But I think, can we start with your definition of body image? Can we start with like, what is disordered eating? What is, let's define it first for people.

Yeah, so body image, I mean, really, to just simplify it as much as possible, body image really is your collection of thoughts and beliefs about your body. I mean, it's as simple as that. Yeah, yeah. And as far as disordered eating, you know, we could get into the DSM-5, the manual that really very specifically goes in and diagnoses the various eating disorders and their characteristics and all of that. And I don't, yes, I think in some cases it is important and it is necessary. But to me, if we just look at overall disordered eating, what is

disordered eating? Disordered eating is when anyone has a relationship with food that impacts their overall day-to-day life, their quality of life, the way that they show up in the world, is the relationship kind of between themselves, food, and their bodies, it is negatively impacting life in some way.

Would you consider eating disorders in the same category as self-harm?

I don't. And the reason that I don't is I mean it's a good question and and I would say this I think that eating disorders and I mean I guess I'm not as familiar with self-harm as I am with disordered eating. So in terms of I certainly do not consider myself to be an expert on the subject of self-harm. I do think in terms of self-harm, sometimes self-harm comes in like from an attempt to find relief in some way. Sometimes when people think about self-harm, they think it's like an intent, like an intent. And when I

said, I don't initially, is my brain was going to this place of the idea of I am harming myself intentionally, like the intent to harm. And I do not believe that that eating disorders are come from a place of intent to harm. So sometimes people who suffer from disordered eating, particularly, let's say with binge eating, for example, they might eat a lot of food, and they might just think like, Oh, I hate myself, I hate myself so much, I hate that I do this. And they feel like they're eating kind of to punish themselves. And it's

but I really don't think it is an intent or an attempt to self harm. I think more like more often what happens is that there's so much internal self-judgment and self-loathing that we're not trying to hurt ourselves. We're not trying to punish ourselves. We're trying to get away from ourselves. There's so much the the internal language and the dialogue is so mean, and it's so pervasive. But we can't we literally cannot get away from it unless we do something that completely disconnects ourselves from ourselves. And for many people with disordered eating, they have figured out a

way to use food in some way to kind of create that disconnection from from self. Then I think that's more likely what happens there.

And that makes sense. It only actually just occurred to me, like 10 minutes. It's the same. I wonder if so can you go over the categories or I don't know itemize what eating disorders or disordered eating is I know there's bulimia but what is there what else is there? What is it? Briefly? What does it look like? Unknown

Speaker Oh, well, that's a that's a really big question. And I, personally, I don't really consider myself to be an expert in all eating disorders. For me binge eating, binge eating is my lived experience, both restrictive, I've kind of experienced, I've experienced 3 different levels. So you have the more restrictive type of eating disorders, which can be anorexia, nervosa, and just restrictive types of eating disorders, which is we are restricting the amount of food that we eat. There's also then binge, there's binge eating, binge eating disorder, where we're consuming large amounts of food at any given

time. There's also with binge eating, sometimes there is an attempt to compensate for the amount eaten, and sometimes there isn't. So when there's an attempt to compensate for the amount eaten, that might look like bulimia, where maybe somebody is trying to purge in some way. So whether that's through vomiting, whether it's through laxatives, whether it's through excessive exercise, kind of an attempt to compensate for the overconsumption. In some cases, there isn't an attempt to compensate for the overconsumption. There are also different kind of areas. There's, there is, if we're looking at the DSM-5, the diagnostic manual,

there is the eating disorders not otherwise specified. So if it doesn't fall into these categories, there can be a catch-all for, there's a lot of different areas where there might just be a hyper focus on the quality of food. So this is very, this is something that's happening a lot more lately is kind of this emphasis on, you have probably heard the term clean eating, where we have this hyper focus on the quality, either the quality of the food, it has to be organic, it has to be unprocessed, it has to be whole, there has to

be, there can be this real fixation on the type of food. So that can also be kind of a category. If you are, If you are a person who has a hard time going to, for example, if you have a hard time going to a potluck, where you don't really know what's going to be there, there's going to be a lot of you know, you don't really have control, there's going to be maybe 10 different things, people are just going to be bringing things. If you're 1 of those people that's like, I don't even like to

go to those things, because I can't control what's in my food, I don't know what's in every single ingredient. Those types of things are kind of good indicators. There might be some sort of disordered eating happening.

Okay. That's interesting. So are there misconceptions around disordered eating?

Yes, I think there's a lot of misconceptions around disordered eating. There are, for example, 1 of the 1 of the misconceptions I think that that that I would receive a lot is people would look at me, and they would say, you, you, there's no way you could have an eating disorder. Because if you looked at me from the outside, I'm a straight sized, average sized person. And so somebody might look at me and be like, there's, there's no way that you could bet that you could, you know, be a binge eater, like you're not, There's kind

of this idea that to have for example to have binge eating disorder that you would be very overweight or you know so the the misconception is this the misconception is that you can just look at somebody and be able to tell whether or not they have an eating disorder. So basically you can have, no matter what, no matter what size you are, you can have an eating disorder. You can, you can have, you can have anorexia and be clinically in the obese category. I did not know that. Yes, absolutely. Yes, there are a lot of people

who generally like live in larger bodies. They genetically are just, you know, just like dogs, we all are designed to have a different size and shape of frame of a body. But what happens is that we, we end up seeing all these images and who is portrayed on TV and in the movies and in the magazines and we think, oh, that that is the standard of beauty. That's the body I want. So what we do is we we suppress where our body naturally wants to be. So you might have a woman who just lives in a

naturally larger body, the natural size that her body wants to be is larger. But because she has received all of these, these messages from society that the beauty ideal is thinner, she is eating very much less food than her body requires because she's trying to suppress her natural body size. So she literally could check off many of the indicators for anorexia, restrictive eating disorder, but be but nobody else would be able to would really even think that's possible. Because she's in a bigger body, You kind of like we have these ideas of an anorexic person and

like a lot of people have this mental image of what that body might look like and that is not always the case.

That's really interesting. And I can't be the first to think I had no idea.

Yeah, no, you are definitely not the first to think that at all. Yeah, and this becomes a problem Because if you are this woman who is in a naturally has a naturally bigger body And then you go to the doctor and you tell them you know Hey here here are the challenges that I'm facing. Here's what's going on and I'm not even eating that much food. What happens in a lot of cases is the doctor is like, there's no way, I don't believe you. There's no way you could be in that size of body and not

be eating very much food, which then just reinforces for her, there must be something wrong with me. I must be broken. My body needs to change. And so I'm just going to keep essentially starving myself because I'm trying to manipulate my body to be this thing that I believe is better. I mean, that really disordered eating, disordered eating can, and any of our eating challenges can really come from a lot of different places. So I believe that there are there really 8 reasons kind of behind at least for when when I talk about the 8 reasons,

but it's specifically for binge eating, but a lot of these reasons, really, they, they cross over to really any sort of disordered eating or any challenges, any challenges with food. And so those reasons, number 1, it's shame and judgment. Shame and judgment over, particularly when we're talking about binge eating, it's like there's so much shame and there's so much judgment when you just feel so out of control with food, like you just feel like you can't stop. And that there really must be something wrong with me because of just the sheer volume of food that I'm

eating. And when we're in shame and judgment, then all we wanna do is kind of like get away. We wanna escape, we wanna hide. We wanna hide from ourselves, we wanna hide from other people. We don't want to kind of like hear that the the loathing whether that's coming from somebody else or from ourselves internally. So that can kind of just like keep us in the cycle. But restriction is for binge eating restriction is, is 1 of the main kind of factors and causes. So what can happen is sometimes for some people, and this has absolutely

been the case for me, I have, I have had both restrictive eating tendencies, and also binge eating, binge eating tendencies. So it's like, you know, you would kind of have the restrictive eating, the extreme dieting, the you know, the calorie counting, the trying to, you know, only eat 1 time a day, or, you know, have these very long extended windows where we don't eat, or we cut out entire food groups or these types of things, the often when we do that, we end up eating way less food than our body actually needs. And so then what

happens as a survival mechanism, the body's very smart, it knows exactly what it needs, it's going to ultimately at some point say, fine, if you're not going to feed me, I'm going to get the food that I need, no matter what from some place. And this is often what ends up kind of starting the binge eating cycle where you literally feel like you have no control. You cannot stop eating. And it's like it's your body's response to that. That's essentially that threat of that threat of starvation. And that kind of keeps it in a cycle. But

that's not the only reason that some people start. It is 1 of the main reasons, but then there's also 1 of the other reasons is nervous system dysregulation. So if you are, let's say you experienced some sort of trauma in your life of any type, a lot of people have have realized that they can, food can very much be a coping mechanism. It can soothe a dysregulated nervous system, whether that was trauma, whether they needed to escape and disconnect for some other reason to protect and help themselves. We kind of learn how to disconnect through food.

And so then that can kind of become a starting point. So that can be part of it disconnecting just disconnection from the body in general. A lot of people kind of live from the neck up. We're kind of just all I also very much resonate with this, we're just in our minds all the time. We're not actually in our bodies. And so when we're in our minds, and our nervous system is dysregulated, we end up using food to kind of number 1, stay disconnected, but then also to try to kind of calm calm ourselves down.

Hence comfort food.

Yes exactly why we call it comfort food and that's then the the fifth reason is it's a coping mechanism. So if we don't have a large what I call your emotional capacity, so your emotional capacity is your capacity to be with any emotion. And many of us just didn't learn this. I didn't growing up. And so when I would experience these, you know, kind of big emotions when I was in high school, I would just go to my room and slam the door and I would just be pissed. And I wish so much that I could

remember what I did when I went in my room and slammed the door, but I don't remember. I would come up the next day, we would never talk. We wouldn't talk about it. It would just be as if nothing ever happened. And so when I went to college, I'm experiencing all these very big emotions. I'm also away from my primary, my friends, my family, my attachments, and I didn't know what to do with all of this stuff. And so that I start my very first binge was my first semester in college, which is very common. And

what I realized was that for me, binging became, it was like the way that I slammed the door on myself. Was like, only later in treatment did I really realize that's what I was doing, because I didn't have any other method, I didn't have any other ways to deal with my emotions. I didn't even, I just didn't have that skill. We also, another reason, reason number 6 is it's an attempt to control. We're trying to control either our bodies, this is often the case, right? Like the the size of our body, we're trying to control exactly

what we eat, what you know, we don't eat how much we weigh all of that we're just trying to control everything. Or sometimes we feel if we feel like everything else in life is just very out of control. If I can control my food, if I can control exactly all of the things, it can, it's just that it's an attempt to control, especially when things feel a little out of control. Ultimately, you do something over and over again, it becomes a habit. So that's reason number 7. And then the eighth reason is your personal narrative. It's

the way you talk to yourself about yourself. So if I'm thinking and then this kind of even then comes back to the whole body image discussion, right? It's like, if I am just constantly saying to myself, you're gross, you're disgusting, you, you know, you're fat, you need to lose weight, what you need to whatever it is, like all of that also it compounds everything. Because again, if I'm saying all these bad things to myself, I just I don't I don't want to I don't want to hear that I want to get away. And now what I've

learned to do over time and over the years is to get away from myself with food. That's how I slam the door. It's how I, the other analogy I use is like, it's like it's how I turn the lights off on myself. And some people use something else to turn the lights off on themselves, right, that that disconnecting from ourself, our experience, our internal dialogue, it's something that, you know, we do, in a lot of different ways, some people use food to do that and some people, you know, kind of use other other things.

Wow. So how do we, is there a point where, and I'm thinking, now I'm thinking moms, looking at their kids as well. I mean, how do we influence that at home? What are we saying? Like if our kids looking at Taylor Swift, our kids looking at, what are we saying? Like I don't know what I would, I don't like you're beautiful from the inside out, whatever it is, I don't know what I would, what I had said to my kids. But what are we saying at home when they're looking at these pictures, when they're admiring, when

they're, What are we saying? What are the messages we need to be giving them?

Well, I think there's a couple of things to think about in terms of like what happens at home and particularly for moms. The first question that I think is important to ask is for yourself As a mom, what relationship do you have with your own body? And what I know is true for a lot of people, particularly moms, is they, moms work very hard to not pass on the type of messages that they inherited. And I do believe we are doing a much better job than we used to. We are getting many more messages. We have

many more varied sizes of role models and of people. It's still very much challenging, but it is better than it used to be. So, and I think a lot of moms are very aware of this. They are aware of the messages and they work very hard to instill in their children, you're beautiful no matter what and work on instilling those. But here's where I see the disconnect. They work very hard on what they say to their children while still having their own very challenging relationship with themselves. So it's kind of like the, you know, do what

I say, not what I do. Our kids know When we have challenging relationship with food and with our bodies, our kids know. This shows up in, if you are a parent who does not want to be in pictures, your kid knows. It's why. Like this doesn't, like you don't not want to be in pictures just for any reason other than you do not like the way that you look. So so there's that like that's a that's a huge 1. If you are eating different food than the rest of your family eats, you know, because you are

trying to lose weight or whatever reason, that is also a very big indicator. If you go to the beach or you go to the pool and you spit and you don't wear a bathing suit, you don't get in the water, or you just simply refuse to go do those things. These are also these are the, the silent, but very simultaneously silent and very loud messages that we send to our children. So I think that's where it's like as a parent, more than what you say to your kids, because I, I really do believe that most parents

are pretty aware. Because it's like, I don't want there's, it's, I often hear, I don't want to give my child the same message that I received from my parents. And a lot of times that message was taking them to a Weight Watchers meeting at 10 years old, or literally saying, if you have seconds, nobody's going to want to marry you. Or, you know, you, you are you as the bigger child, you don't get dessert, but the other kids do. Like those are examples of things that 3040 years ago, parents were doing directly. So I don't think

that is happening as much anymore. It probably still does to some extent. But if you have a challenging relationship with food and with your body, the best thing we can do is work on our own relationships and show our children what that looks like and really be that example rather than just trying to say the right thing. So

if we're when do we get worried? When are we looking at our kid going we need to we need to and there's going to be steps I'm sure We need to have this conversation and then maybe we need to notch it up and maybe now we need some perfect, what are the steps where mom or dad is going, uh-oh, this is not the best.

Yeah, sometimes the steps actually even start before, sometimes food isn't even part of it in the beginning. Sometimes it is. But it's, I would say, if a child is very, if they're, if they're very, like, closed off, if they are, if their behavior changes in a significant way, let's say, especially, especially with like, restrictive type of eating, when you when you're not eating enough to meet your basic like caloric needs in life, certain things are going to happen like your overall mood might change. So let's say you have naturally been like a pretty outgoing person. And

then all of a sudden, not even all of a sudden, but over time, your maybe your affect changes, maybe what you're interested in changes, Maybe you used to be interested in going out and now you're not really anymore. That type of thing. Sometimes that can happen first. But absolutely around food, you can kind of look at, are there changes in the way that, are there changes in the way that they're eating? Are there changes in the foods that they are willing to eat or not willing to eat? Is there an increased or hyper focus on the

type of food, the quality of food? Are you seeing them kind of like, maybe not wanting, if we're talking the restrictive type, are we, is there an increase in, you know, kind of like not wanting to eat or there's more kind of challenges around actual meal time? We can definitely look at significant changes in body size in either direction, really. And also when we're talking about teens, our bodies are designed to get bigger. We are supposed to until we're probably I think about 20 our body is supposed to get bigger. So if you're seeing somebody who

is like exhibiting kind of some concerns around eating, maybe is not eating as much, maybe they're, maybe they're not wanting to talk about food where, you know, there's, you're seeing kind of just certain things around that. And you're not seeing kind of, you're not seeing a change in the body. That may also be a sign. Sometimes, sometimes as what's really interesting in terms of disordered eating and when disordered eating can really pick up for people is especially in women it happens at these periods of life where our hormones are changing significantly. So it might be in

the teen years when maybe a Person is just getting her period so we've got those hormonal changes which come with changes in the body and They can be very they can feel very threatening and it's often when some girls go on their first very restricted diet because they start to see these changes in their body, they don't like it. And they they're kind of trying to prevent it. So sometimes disordered eating can really ramp up at that point. The next point really can be right around college. For similar reasons that, you know, that was for me,

because we're away from our support. If you, if you go away to college, you're away from your support, you're away from, in often cases, your friends, you're really having to kind of adult on your own for the first time and do a lot of things on your own, you're also in charge of your food and your choices for the first time completely. So there's a lot going on there that can also be a heightened time for disordered eating. And interestingly, the next time that there is a large prevalence of disordered eating is in the perimenopause, menopause

time for women. And it's because our hormones are changing so much. I mean, I'm in the middle of this right now. It's like not only do I know my hormones are changing for a lot of reasons, but my body has also, it has changed. We're supposed to gain weight at this time of life. We're supposed to get softer, we are supposed to gain weight, but there's this idea, you see these influencers or whoever on Instagram with these rock hard bodies at 50, and then we think, well, that's what I'm supposed to look like and so all

of this is a problem And so now I've got to go do all of these things to try to change my body and if you think about many of What many women who are in that? Perimenopause menopause time of life Where their own bodies are changing, they likely have children, depending, I mean, we all have children at different times of life, but they might have children who are in the teen or kind of college age years. So not only is their body changing but then if you just imagine kind of the the influence that's happening there

while you there the the mom is now dealing with her changing body and how she's dealing with it and responding to it and reacting to it is very likely going to be it's going to be seen by the child and then the child then you know it's kind of not only do they have that influence, but you also have all the other kids at school. You have everything else that we see in the media, on TV, in the movies, everything else.

Yeah, I hear you. And I'm, yeah, all the conversation I think I have in my own head and I think actually talking to you a couple of weeks ago you said exactly that your body is supposed to do these things and it really it has sat with me since you said that. So I'm glad you said I'm glad you said it again, because my Yeah, my body is, is so different now. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, but but I feel really good. I feel, I, you know, I'm careful with what I'm eating, but I, but

when I'm eating, I feel good about what I'm eating. And when I'm, you know, cheat day, whatever that is. It's not because I feel like it's a cheat day. I feel like the energy around, Oh, I really feel like this pizza today. And I really feel like this glass of wine. And, and it's an energy. It's not A0I shouldn't be doing this. And that's okay. It'll be good for the rest of the week. I don't do that anymore.

Yeah, the energy behind it. Conversation. It's really important. Yes, the energy behind our choices is everything. And even the idea of a cheat day, it's so problematic, right? Because it's like, what are we cheating on? I mean, the rules and the restrictions and the rigidity and all of that, like it just, it sets us up for, it literally sets us up for like these disordered eating patterns. And so even it's like as a as like to go back to the question of As a mom, what do we do? Ask yourself these questions. Am I using any

of these words around food? Am I saying bad or good? I've been good. I've been so good today. I've been so good all week. Am I saying I deserve this? I deserve to have pizza. I've been so good. Am I using things like cheat day? Like, it's a term that so many people have used, but the term in and of itself is problematic. Am I looking at a menu and saying, Oh, well, I really should order this, but I've had a really hard day. So I'm going to get this. Am I saying, well, I should be

good, but I'm going to be bad and I'll be better tomorrow. Like, you know, like just even kind of like those types of things, the way that we talk about food matters because all of those things, what they do is they create morality around food. It's good and it's bad. And if there are good choices and bad choices, then what we do is we end up saying, well, if I didn't make the good choice, then I must be bad. We personalize it and we then think I'm bad for doing that. Now, I mean, if I ate

pizza all day, every day, I would just feel gross. I just I would not feel good in my body, but that doesn't make it bad food.

So

the way that I love to talk about food and like eating like just decisions around eating is, is is I kind of have a threefold approach, nurturing, supportive, and sustainable. So is this choice nurturing, nurturing might be, it might be ice cream on a warm summer day. I mean, that may be very nurturing to me. It might be something completely different. Like nurturing does not have to mean, you know, it is 100% healthy and whole and all those things, right? Nurturing? Is it supportive? Is it supportive for whatever I am looking for food to do for

me in this moment? Because I think food can absolutely can and does serve a lot of purposes. Sometimes people say like, I just want food to be fuel and that's it. Nothing else. But you know, I personally, I think that food has a lot of places. Yes, food absolutely is fuel. Food does fuel a lot of what we do in life. And that's really important. And food is also pleasurable. Food is for gathering and for celebration and for enjoyment. It, it absolutely can be all of those things. So for me, it's nurturing, supportive. And the last

1 is so important, and it's sustainable. Can I eat this way for the rest of my life? I'm not on a plan that I can only do for 30 days, or 75 days, or 3 weeks until then I'm off the wagon or whatever, it's like sustainable. I literally, no matter what, no matter if I'm having the best day ever or the worst day ever, like this is what I can do kind of for myself. It's really like that supportive and sustainable approach.

Yeah, and I liked even how you started the whole conversation where you're in your head. Yes. Whereas when you really think about eating, And the same as what I just said, it's like, how does it make me feel? And, and literally, I could, yep, go to McDonald's, and I could have fries and a burger. And I know, in an hour, I'm going to feel like a bag of crap. And if I realize that, but can I go to a really nice gourmet burger place? Can I have just this great, you know, just to kind of satisfy

what I'm feeling like at that moment? And I'm not going to feel this mound of regret, because I'm not sitting in the washroom with Tums. But yeah, I like that. And I think that's conversations to have at home. What do you literally, like we say, what do you feel like? What do you feel like? What do you really think about? What do you feel like? And that's I think is so important night love. I just want to respect the time of this, but I also want to say.

I want to add 1 thing to that though real quick in terms of like conversations to have at home. So I absolutely agree with what you're saying. And here's the thing that I think parents could do beautifully with their children. It's like, help me like really understanding around like food choices. Why do you like this food? What is it? What is it about this food that you really like? So it might be so because sometimes, especially, especially if we're trying to make choices, because, well, it's just the least amount of calories, right? Like this is, if

I eat this, then I'll weigh less tomorrow, right? Like sometimes that's the decision. And if that's the decision, we want to know that. But it's like, if we can really understand why are we making these choices? What, huh, okay, so like, what do you feel like? Oh, I feel like a salad. How come? What is it about a salad that would be like really amazing to you? And it might be, ah, I just love some fresh produce. Right now, this is in season. And, you know, when I eat a salad afterwards, like I just feel really

good. I feel energized, whatever it is, right? Or if and if that's the answer, it's like amazing. If the answer is, well, I'm afraid that if I Like what I really want is this, but I'm afraid if I eat this, then I won't be able to do this or I'm trying to fit into my prom dress, you know, because prom is in 2 weeks, or whatever, like that right there is going to kind of be able to show you what are the decisions. It might be like, Oh, well, I really want. I really want to eat

like I feel like let's say it's like fried chicken and mashed potatoes and biscuits and macaroni and cheese. Okay, amazing. How come? Like, what is it about that? Like, what sounds really good? You know, like, what do you like about it? Like, really, I love for anyone to really understand, like, with your food choices. It's like, what do you like to eat? And why?

So

many people that I work with, they don't even know what they like to eat. They're just like, I have just eaten these foods for years, because somebody told me to, they were on a list. They're like approved by any diet I've ever been on. This is just like what I eat. And it's like, Okay, well, let's get really like, do you even like that food? If you do? Why? What do you like about it? Is it the texture? Is it the flavor? Do you like this brand? Or do you like this brand? Oh, I don't even

know. Like, I've never really given myself those options. These are great conversations that and if we're if we're back to the fried chicken and the mashed potatoes and the and the everything. All right, like, we understand why. Okay, great. And then we start to think about, I'd love to think about how I'm going to feel when I eat something before, during and after. So it's like, I'm all for well, actually, I'm not for fried chicken and all of those things, because I would just not feel good. But I might have some of something, but really with

the, I want to enjoy this. I want to enjoy the anticipation of it. I want to enjoy it while I'm eating, and I want to feel really good afterwards as well. And there is a place where you can find that enjoyment in all of the areas and then you're not in the, like, I feel gross, I ate too much, I'm over full. Like, If you really stay connected, you have that intention, that purpose, you really are eating what you truly want, listening to your body's wisdom. It is so possible to have this amazing connected relationship with

yourself and with food.

Yeah, that's so good. I just wanna say 1 more thing, because this is such a sticking point with me, is commenting on people's bodies. It makes me crazy. Oh, he's gotten bigger. Oh, he's gotten smaller. Oh, look, I've lost 10 pounds. Oh, he or she or whatever, like just commenting, period. Yeah.

You talk to me. Basically, the, you know, I really learned about I learned about the dangers of this, I would say through my I was I went through intensive outpatient therapy, 2 rounds. And in my time in that treatment was when I really just learned about the dangers of commenting on bodies. Any comment at all, whether we're talking, whether we comment on somebody who's lost weight, whether we comment on somebody who's gained weight. Number 1, we never have any idea what is going on with anybody. But when I think about for myself specifically, when I was

at the height of my restriction and my disordered eating, I received the most compliments on my body. So here's what happens is you receive these compliments on your body, you're doing this stuff, restrictively eating, doing things that literally are so like detrimental physically to your body, then you receive these compliments, you look so great. Oh my gosh, I wish my arms looked like that. What are you doing? So then what do I hear is keep going. It's like that reinforcement and this happened to me and I have heard this from so many people. It's like, then

we get this. It's like this affirmation to continue with the disordered eating And then it just continues and continues. And then at some point, if like for me, then the binging then comes back because there's this, it's the pendulum effect of that is just natural for us. Then the weight gain starts coming back on and then there's just this fear. Oh my gosh, now I'm getting bigger. What are people gonna say? Like it's this, It's so problematic. Commenting on bodies for any reason is never, it's never

a good idea. Because you don't know, you don't know. Right, if I'm sitting on the couch and I'm listening to 2 people over here talk about, oh, she's gotten bigger. Oh, it's still filtering in my head. So there's still kids sitting on their couches listening to mom and mom or mom and dad or dad and dad at the kitchen table saying, Oh my God, see, oh, They're listening. Like, we just need to put a dead stop right here. No more.

No, and the message is that the size of your body matters. And it doesn't. You are so much more than a body. But we keep getting these messages from external, from other people that the size and shape of your body is of this utmost important. And so then we place all this importance on it. And then what do we know to do to change the shape of our body? Oh, food. So then it's just so inextricably linked. Yeah.

I just, I love this conversation. I think it's so important. I want people to share this everywhere because I feel like even in like my last few years of teaching, it was so prevalent in high school. And I don't know if it was more of a trigger from COVID or it just got more noticed. Doesn't matter what it was, it's there and we need to start talking about it. We need to stop the stigma around it. We need to start having the right conversations instead of the wrong conversations. And yeah, it's just, I feel like, and

this is not, I'm just going to say this 1 quick thing. This is not solely female gender.

No, not at all. Absolutely. So I think absolutely it impacts it impacts both men and women and men, it impacts men more than we know. Men don't really have a lot of times kind of a place to go to talk about these things. But just like women see all of these ads and these women in bikinis and whatever, men see the muscle, you know, the muscley people on the magazines and in the movies and everything else, they absolutely body image impacts both men and, and women, very, on a very intense level in both cases. And I

just want to say 1 more thing in terms of the conversations to have. 1 more kind of like, like a kind of just a warning, especially for parents, is What we want to do is understand. We want to understand our kids. Help me understand why you're making these choices. Help me understand why you're afraid to eat that. Help me understand why you're not eating the lunch that I sent you or whatever. Help me understand and having that really understanding, that curiosity, that openness is so important. The warning is we do not want to give them an

indication of you're wrong, you're broken, there's something wrong with you, why won't you just eat, why don't you just stop eating? Why don't you just just don't do that? Just you're beautiful. Why can't you just see? Why can't you just see how beautiful you are? Those things don't help. So we don't they already I can tell you already they already feel broken. They already feel not good enough. They already feel challenged or damaged or something in some way. And so you want to be sure that you're not creating any more feelings of less than or wrong

or broken, because they are likely already feeling that in some way or another, or they wouldn't be kind of having some of these challenges. So what we want to do is understand. We want that compassion, that understanding, that empathy. And then through that understanding, okay, now let's find you the support and help, if that's kind of what we decide is that next step. But we don't wanna go at it from this place of, why don't you just do something different? Why can't you just eat more? Why can't you just eat a cheeseburger? Like that is not

helpful.

I'm so glad we're finishing like this because help me understand I think is the mic drop like you've got all these golden nuggets today They're so helpful, but help me understand is probably the best way to start any conversation

any Conversation I

love that. I actually had goosebumps when you said I'm like there it is. There it is. There it is right there. I love it. Thank you so much. This is just so important and we can drop into the show notes any resources you have. I'm sure there's lots of places we can call talk to you books. We can read I'll put it all in the show notes Where can we find you Jane?

Sounds good. I would say on my website is Jane Pilger calm a great resource for Me specifically if you if binge eating is of concern for you or a loved 1. I have a podcast called binge breakthrough. And even if I would say even if binging I actually received so much feedback that you know, binging isn't actually my thing, But I have challenges and struggles with food. If you have any challenges or struggles with food, the binge breakthrough podcast is a great resource for you.

What a great thing to have out there. Thank you for all the work you do. I really appreciate you dropping in. Hopefully we can just have another conversation because I don't think this is over. And thank you for listening to Teen Minds Redefined. Please share this, please share this because people need to hear this. People need this help. And Jane is doing beautiful work and we need to get it out there. So thank you so much for listening. 

Cheryl

Welcome to another episode of teen minds redefined, where we strive to redefine the relationships we have with our teenagers and just foster their growth into their own authentic selves as we watch them become these amazing adult human beings. And today we have these casinos and I am so excited. This is not only a number of things I'm going to go through here but he has a podcast as well called the social hour. And I highly recommend it. It's great to listen to you are really enjoying it. So DISA is an internationally touring Latino comedian who has carved his path from so Central LA to becoming a successful entrepreneur in the entertainment industry. With over 15 years of experience in comedy DS has graced the stages across America, Canada, right here, Mexico, Costa Rica, Belize and the Bahamas. He's been featured on various platforms, including lmao TV, Amazon Prime Apple TV TV Roku comedy channel. Notably DS has released two albums The Northwest comedy mixtape Volume One and two, and has been voted Northwest best comic for over five consecutive years. Yay. His recent special not your cup of tea showcases his biting and sarcastic comedic style blending big city energy with small town charm. And while audiences adore his humor, his parents have a more lukewarm view of his career choices. Nevertheless, his story serves as an inspiration for parents and teens alike, illustrating the importance of pursuing one's dreams, even if they deviate from the typical linear path. So thank you for joining us. It's so funny. Is there anything you want to add to that, that I might have missed? Before we dive into this?

Deece

The I, I also ran for mayor of a town in Washington State. Just very recently, so I did not win. But also I was I kind of I kind of some things happen, which changed the trajectory. But I was running for mayor of a city in Washington State.

Cheryl

That's amazing. Yeah. That's amazing. Are you the first comedian to do this?

I can't, I can't imagine I am. But I don't know of any others off the top of my head. But man, I have to imagine at least if not, as a complete Lark. Someone has to have at some point, you know,

well, and then there's the I'm an intentionally a comedian, then there's oh my god, they're laughing at me comedian. So there's a few of those in politics, I imagine.

Most politicians. That's why I ran.

Cheryl

 So I'm gonna just say, the way I find my podcast guests is I'll either be on Instagram or Facebook, or I see a quote, or whatever it is, it's always an energy, like, Oh, I really liked what they had to say. And, and I don't specifically go, who can talk to parents or who can talk to teens? Because everybody, yes, there's some connection somewhere. And so what I like to do is, you know, my main thing is kind of shift perspective for parents, and just kind of look at, what do we have to do in order to let them be who they are? Yeah. And it always started out when I first started even this, it was, you know, here's a diagnosis and how do we help them and what do we say to the teacher? And how do you help them at home? And it has evolved to this, it always begins with us, and the shit we have to do, because whatever they're doing is triggering us. And it's our trigger. Yeah. So it's just kind of moved into that direction. And so when I saw that your parents weren't real pleased with this decision. I thought, oh, I have to get this guy. Because this sounds like a lot of fun. So let's talk first, where are you now? What are you doing now? Like currently? What's leading you up right now?

 Deece

Right now I live in Texas. I recently moved to Texas just over a year ago. Love it very happy with the with Texas life. Yeah, that's so you know, I'm from LA kind of lived all over, mostly LA. But most of it did live in Washington state for about 10 years recently, and then moved to Texas A year ago. And it's great. I love it. I'm in the middle of a little bit of a break. I'm taking the first couple months of 2024 off of touring. So it's nice. I the last five plus years, I've spent more time on the road than I have at home. So I'm just enjoying, you know, I'm still doing stuff locally, but just kind of taken some time off the road and working on a comic book that I'm that I wrote working with an artist to finish that up in the next couple of months.

No, not a book on comedy, but an actual comic book an actual comic book.

Yeah. Okay. So yeah. So that's kind of the next adventure. That's what's lighten me up right now. And yeah, you know,

that's fine. That's fine.

Cheryl

 So from where are you going to try and go back and it's so funny when I was reading your bio, and then listening to your podcast, I'm like, Oh, shit, this guy's a big deal. Seriously, like, you just because I don't chase that. I think it's, it's the message in the energy. Sure. And then it's afterwards I'm doing this research. Oh, my God. And then I remembered. You're the comedian. So pressure is off me?

Deece

Well, it's not that bad. I mean, here's this. Here's the deal. Show. Like I've done huge shows across the world. And then like, last weekend, I did a show for, like, just 19 people. So it's, there's real upset ebbs and flows of this thing. You know, so yeah, big deal is subjective. But you

know, I'm very impressed. And then how much I mean, you can't get more material than teenager. So I think we're good to go. 

Cheryl

Yeah. I've had them. I've taught them. I've worked with them. Yeah, they gave him some material for sure.

I am there either. I've been one. I know that at some point. I was one. Yeah, me

too. But I think I was a perfect angel. But

I like to think so too. You know, the Sheriff of where I grew up may say otherwise. You know, 

Cheryl

that's funny. Okay, so can you share with us just from what age did you start thinking this realm, like, at what grade did you start or what age did you think? Oh, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not going there.

Deece

I think always Yeah, this is so it's so funny. My mother likes to remind me of this often, but I from a very I think it was my second grade teacher. Miss Moreland, I still remember her name. She in like a parent teacher conferences. You know, she told my mother that when, you know, my mom asked how I was doing and she liked this is her it was her diplomatic answer. My teacher said he thinks marches to the beat of his own drummer. So from a very young age, that was kind of my perspective. And you know, I was always a creative I mean, as much as I love sports and friends and running and being a kid and doing crazy stuff. I always was also fine and really craved like, time alone to just create and write and draw and like think and come up with just interest things that you know kind of be it like as I look back it's funny like I was having crazy introspective philosophical you know dumb because I was you know, a is Nydia know anything. But also, you know, you don't know what you don't know. So you're you're just having these thought explorations at such a young age in almost with an innocence that makes them more interesting, I think. Yeah. And as I look back, so I was always just kind of that was the like to think abstractly and just kind of absorb a little bit of everything.

Cheryl

And so what point were you like, did your parents tried to rein that in? Did they say Well, that's that's a really nice hobby, but you need like, how many conversations I have with parents? Yep. That's great that they want to act that's great, but but they need a backup plan.

Deece

Yeah. That's That's kind of you to assume they were interested. They Yeah. They, you know, that would have involved burning some calories. They weren't that interested in what I was doing at all. Good, bad or indifferent. So, you know, the I just kind of was able to explore that a little more for, you know, sometimes to my detriment, sometimes, sometimes not. But I mean, honestly, especially now at my age and looking back, it's despite everything that some people would view as negative that I did or was done to me or was involved in or, you know, whatever. Everything that it everything, like, made me and got me to here, and really was, I don't know if there's much I would change.

Cheryl

No, I like that. Yeah. So at what point then, so where did you get to and high school? Like, did you finish high school? What  did you do there?

Deece

Oh, man, again, I kind of you to assume I went to high school I, I actually dropped out of school in the middle of my eighth grade year, and moved out of my parents house. Yeah, I was. It was like 15. And left school, left my parents house and went kind of out on my own. Cheryl

So

and then what?

Deece

Then a lot of things, some of them their statutes of limitations, I probably still fully disclosed. But, you know, the, yeah, I, you know, I had a lot of friends that were older, you know, 18 to 21 plus, so. And I was pretty self sufficient. Financially, I was working and able to make money. So I started is I rented a room from some friends who I knew were in a room for rent. And I had purchased a car that year, you know, for 500 bucks, I gotta bought a 75 Chevy Nova, that was driving around. So you know, it's kind of doing my thing, and I just kind of you just kind of fake people. I mean, here's the thing, and don't get any. I mean, I don't know, if kids or teenagers listen to this, don't get any wild ideas. But like, people are more resilient than we give ourselves credit for. And when put in a position of difficulty, we, I mean, I was always, in everything, I always bet on myself. And I kind of found myself, you know, you figure it out, you figure it out in it, you know, so I I certainly wasn't 100% success all the time. But I, you know, made it.

Cheryl

When did you first get up on stage?

Deece

First time I did stand up comedy. I was. Oh, let's see, let's see, let's see, let's see, it was probably about 17 years ago. Is that right? It would have been like, 2005 2006, somewhere around there. So I don't know how old I would have made me. I was born 82 You guys can do the math. I see. I didn't go to I didn't go to school, the you know, whatever. 2026 25 or something. It was in a little bar called pizza at the beach in Long Beach, California, where I'm where I'm from. And I had, you know, grew up in Long Beach, and I moved away and I was gone for a while and back and forth. And I was had been back there permanently for a couple years. And this little bar used to do an open mic and I love love comedy. So I go out and hang out and watch just watch because it was the only comedy around that I knew of. And it was kind of a bar I hung out at anyway. And the guy who ran his name was Steve. We started I started hanging out and talking to him after the shows and you know getting drinks of them. And you know, we choose Sorry, can I swear? Yeah, and he would he's like hey you you're funny who's you should you should try this you know you ever thought about trying to say go? Yeah, I thought about I mean I've written jokes and I always wanted to I just never knew how it was what you're here every week is goes next week you're going up. That's it. Okay. And I did and I I got bit by the bug. And that's usually what happens when you go up you either like it don't ever want to do it again, like I got that out of my system or you go, I will do this forever. And I will sleep in my car and get paid in chicken tenders to make sure to do this again. And then you do for the next couple of years you do that. As you pursue this ridiculous goal of doing cars standing in, you know, trashy road houses, hoping people like your little Yuk Yuks. observations about travel is weird.

Cheryl

You know, it's funny, I'm sitting here, I'm thinking so was there a point in any of those initial setups where it was just like a complete bust? Like just a bust? Whoa, yep. Silent. And then what goes through your head?

Deece

That's,that still happens. I'm not going to share I'm gonna say right now. I mean, 15-17 years, like. I mean, I've been doing this professionally full time for nearly a decade. And it's still, I mean, a couple of weeks ago, I did a set that went very poorly, you know, and I mean, any comedian in the world, the best comedians or Dave Chappelle tell yet, it's not always a hit you but if you're not bombing, you're not taking chances. You know, you're not making you're not taking swings. And sometimes you gotta take big swings to get a home run. And you're gonna whiff sometimes, but that teaches you how to swing better keep your eye on the ball. It's just part of it. But yeah, early on, but also I like, I mean, I always I'm like a robot, I don't care. I it's like, I was just like, whatever. I'm just, there's good ones. There's bad ones. You try again, you know, it's okay. It didn't make me it didn't really discourage me. It was always just well try again, next time you learn something. And that was my takeaway, like, you know, and it's like any failure, you learn something from it, and figure out what to, because I mean, you're when you start comedy, you have no idea what you're doing. You're just up there. You don't you don't even understand how, what you're doing, how the magic works. Eventually, you start to figure it out. The mechanics and joke writing, and it's just reps, but like, you're just trying to capture just lightning in a bottle and figure out what works. So you're gonna bomb a lot of times a lot, a lot of times, but you got to be delusional, to even try to think that I'm gonna walk up on stage. Me, no one, nobody in this room knows me. You're gonna hand me a microphone, and I have three minutes. And after that, I'm gonna make you all laugh like you have to be a crazy person. You think that's gonna work?

Cheryl

 So it amazes me. It totally amazes me. My kid. She's 31 now. But when she first started, when she finished, she went to college when she was writing comedy. She was as a side thing. Yeah. Yeah. I always said to my kids, listen, you want to do something? Find someone who's already doing it. 10 years from now, because if they love what they do, they're happy to share it. Yeah. And they they then you avoid the little bombs that you don't need to step on, on the way. And so she found she found someone who said if you want to write comedy, you got to do comedy. Yeah. This is the quietest kid you'll ever meet. Every every teacher meeting where she doesn't raise her hand. She doesn't participate. She doesn't talk bla bla bla, like literally does like so shy. Shy, introverted, whatever it is. Anyway, so she I got her this pack of to Second City. Yeah, okay. Yeah. And part of the grad was you had to stand up at open mic night and do your stick. And I was wedding. I mean, I was sweating. You do nothing but encouraged right? Yeah. Go Go. Go. You got this. You got this. And I was literally shitting my pants and this kid knocked it out of the park. I kept going. Lucky. She like who? She killed it. Yes. And I thought what is this like, this is this is amazing. But it's but as parents, like I was crapping like I honest to god, I was so nervous. And I know she's very funny writing. She's got a great wit and timing. But I was really nervous. And I'm thinking okay, here's the lesson. Like just sit back and and let it go. You know, what would you say to parents, okay, your kid got up there. You kid wants to try something and you're scared for them because, you know, I mean, I didn't think she would suck but if you saw you heard kids sing and they couldn't carry a tune. But they want to get up on stage and they want to do it like what are we saying to parents?

Deece

Yeah, yeah, it's like, you know, maybe karaoke night is more your speed than, you know than Broadway. Yeah. So find the local Chinese Joy hit their Friday nights and go get you know, my Thai and then sing some Billy Joel in the back. But I don't know, maybe Juilliard isn't for you?

Cheryl

Well, and how important is it? And what do you what are your thoughts on? Just Just let him try it? Like, just let them try it. But it hadn't been for me worried about my kid. I was that Oh, my God, please don't get up on stage. I don't want you to be hurt. I don't want you to hear silence. But I did. Thank God.

Deece

I'm a couple of things. First of all, I've said for a long time I so I used to do improv also. And I used to teach improv. And I used to tell every I said to a million people who have no interest in doing comedy in any shape, or form as a pursuit, but I've like, I think everyone should take an improv class. A basic intro to improv, you know, you take you know, half a dozen classes, it's just going to teach you some basic things about it'll make you better in conversation. It'll make you better in interviews, it'll make you better in a lot of things. But what people don't realize is like improv, it, they, they think it's about being funny. It's really about listening. And listening to the people around you and picking up on cues from people around you. So, like, as far as trying it? Yeah, I think everyone should try that aspect. But even even stand up comedy when people like, I've always thought about it, Should I try it and I go, just do it. I go, I guarantee you your first time there, you won't be the worst person there. I guarantee it. I have watched a million open mics and a million cities, you could be so bad. I go, you will not be the worst person there. There's some there is some sociopath who has been walking up on that stage for 10 years for three minutes every Tuesday and doing impressions of you know, hit like impressions of Mary Poppins. If she was an astronaut. You're like just going on. There's some crazy shit and you're like, yeah, just go. You won't be the worst person there. And the people who go watch open mic. happen. Those crowd members, they remember two people that remember one person for sure, whoever's the worst. Second, they maybe remember the best person in everyone else. They forget I like you can go up there and be forgettable. You just got a W ah, oh, it just go try and find out. You know, you never know until you jump up there and find out.

Cheryl

 Oh,I love it and love it. So tell me what did the one of the standout moments for you? What are this? Like? I'll never forget this moment. I'll never forget that moment. Good or bad. I don't care.

Deece

As far as common like in in my comedy career.

Cheryl

Yeah, start there.

Deece

I'll start with a well, I'll live. So there's a lot of moments that here's the thing about being a stand up comedy comic is not only are you delusional, but you're also just, you're cynical. And we are we have it we have a demented outlook. And generally, I found this with myself and most standard comedians, we have a hard time remembering the highs, good shows rarely stand out. Good shows. Good that like what we remember most is the bad shit and the crazy things that happen like the crazy shows like I I mean, I I walked into a show in Colville Washington, you know, and I'm Latino. I'm with my buddy who's Korean. And we're meeting a guy we've never met, who's supposed to do the show with us and he's a black guy. Okay, which already sounds like I've set up for a terrible joke, you know, Latino, creative, like walk into a bar. My buddy, Tony, who was like this gregarious guy, just like, you know, bullshit talking. He walks up and just walks right at the bar. He's like, hey, he gets a yes here for the comedy show tonight. And he's two days your turn. Look at us. In one of them. Just straight up gives us the Zig Heil. Like Heil Hitler, like just out well. Like, just go. Like, if it's gonna be a fun night, we're gonna die. You know, and like, you know, then the black guy gets there, and it gets worse. We spent the whole night played, you know, playing defense against people trying to get on stage and fight whatever comedian was on stage at the time. Because they just hated anyone darker than you know, Tom Selleck. And it was just a wild, like nights like that are the nights that I remember. Because those are the ones you talk about more. You know, it's like, you don't talk about Yeah, we had a good show. And there's not a lot of follow up questions. Great. Yeah. Glad you had a good show. But the show when you commiserate with other comedians on the wild shows, you know, that's the ones that you really, that really stick out.

So funny. Yeah.

I mean, stuff like that. I mean, I don't know how many times I've had people try and fight me on stage. It's, generally I've got a joke. In my set that I call the Karen killer joke, because it generally will get about one out of 10 times and middle aged women will.

And yell at me, or for this joke, and so on with Josie Tracy, we took as long as swinging me one time jumped up on stage and yeah, so. So you just, you know, those are the things I remember. Okay. 

Cheryl

Now,I want to go , like play metaphor here with the hecklers in your audience. Yeah. And how and I know, like you said, how many teens listen to my podcast? Listen, I tell parents, if they want to ride to the mall, then they're listening to the podcast in the car. That's probably because No, but I can imagine my teenager saying I'm not listening to anything you listen to that's ridiculously lame. But so hecklers in the audience hecklers in your life? Like how how do you handle that?

Deece

Well, what people don't, what hecklers fail to realize is that, especially like, if you're an open mic, it's a little different. But if you're like a show, and you're talking to someone who's on stage holding a microphone, there's a good chance that that is a seasoned professional, whose job is whose whole career and mortgages paid by him talking shit, and being very witty and fast. I doubt that the guy who's half in the bag with a G D, who works at the sawmill is that quick, and get a get a really get one over on an on a on a guy who does it as a living. So here you are, you know, it's a it's like stepping into a wrestling match with a Kodiak bear. It's like, yeah, you might, you could you might get a swing in, but I guarantee when they swing back, it's gonna count more. So it's, you know, there's, there's ways to go about it, I've my personal favorite way to deal with hecklers in the audience, is, there's a way to get the rest because the rest of the audience is having a good time. And the rest of the audience generally is, wants to hear the show, and they don't want to hear some dumb ass about themselves. So what you do is you just get the rest of the audience to hate this person. And then the rest of the audience will completely shame this person so much and get throw so much shade at this person that they want to crawl out of their own asshole, and back in their mother's womb and never been born. And then and then you can just look at him with a straight face and be like, I wanted to hear what you had to say, buddy, but like, they all hate you. And everyone just cheers. And then you're like, look, what are you gonna do? And then they just they're shut up. They shut up.

Cheryl

 Loveit. Good. Okay, so you've moved, or is this at the same time? The Entrepreneurship? What is this entrepreneur? What are you doing?

Deece

Well, oh, man, what am I doing? Well, I've done a lot of things over the years. You know, currently, it's, it's kind of represents or presents itself and, you know, I am a again, internationally touring standup Comedian I my own agent, I'm my own manager. But I also run a production company. So I book and produce comedy at, oh, I think we're probably somewhere over 40 venues in 19 states. So, you know, we've got comedy events. So you know, booking comics, getting comics paid, finding venues, creating shows, producing shows. So a lot of that, that takes up a lot of time. And then, you know, writing again, the comic book, that's, you know, doing the, that's the next venture I'm committing myself to, which will take away from my standup time a little bit, but that's okay. Happy to be home a little more. You know, I do the podcast, I've done stuff outside of that I've had, I was the head of a podcast network for a while, where we were finding and producing shows we had a lot, I mean, probably 20 shows on the network, at one point, about a year ago, I left the network, just because I didn't have time and wasn't, you know, looking to do cultivate and produce podcasts anymore. It's just a lot of work. You know, done sketch comedy, you know, I used to do during the pandemic, I was doing a show called the Social minute, which was a, like, four to eight minute, weekly news, like, is comedy news thing, you know, just always finding new ways to explore the nice thing about comedy, or anything, any creative endeavor is like, especially when you when it comes to what I'm doing. Now, I don't have a boss, I can look anywhere I want it to look, you know, I can do as much fuckery as I want to, because the only one at the end of the day, the only thing person I have to make sure is okay with it is me and, and make sure I can still pay my mortgage. And as long as those things are all happening, like, I can explore the genres and the way I present it and what I want to do with it in any way, you know, if I want to put money into doing a sketch comedy, and film a bunch of sketches, we can do that. You know, there's, you can do it. Yeah, yeah. And that's that, I like that. That freedom is available to anyone that freedom is so available these days in the gig economy, you know, it's like you can you can really find something you like and find a way to make money out of it.

#RedefiningLeadership #EmpoweringTeens #StudentVoice #CelebratingMistakes #InclusiveEducation #TrainTheTrainer #StudentLeadership #EducationUnimagined #YouthEmpowerment #TeenLeadership #ParentingTips #EducationPodcast

Key Takeaways:

saloni surah: Yes, I mean I think teens are such a wonderful group and I haven't been working lately because of the reasons I miss interacting with I miss the fun and the SAS and I was just mentioning that I did this lovely podcast with these two gorgeous teenagers from Canada and Rose tinted glasses most of the ceiling and that's just wonderful and I always miss it and I had a coach to whole family and I really enjoyed the teenager. It was a lot of fun. So it's nice to Interact and mix them. it's such a wonderful age, isn't it? Because it's kind of that transition period of and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: he

saloni surah: what are they going to do? And what's the possibility in the potential for them?

Cheryl Pankhurst: Absolutely, and I spent 28 years with teenagers and I say all the time. I think I'd rather spend more time with them than most adults. I hear you. I find that there's not that filter when you're working with a teenager and it's as long as they feel that Mutual connection then. there's no filters there. There's just a great conversation and I love learning from them. So.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Let's talk about I wanted to really dive into the topic of sexual health and I notice I involve myself in a lot of groups parents and coaching teams and there's so many conversations about sexual health how much to divulge to your teenager how much you don't divulge where do they get their information from and all of the things so, my first question I guess is parents find it. I'm sure very challenging to talk about sexual health. I know years ago. It was go upstairs in the bedroom at Story Time and say this part nobody touches anything and you're good to go but now is obviously very different especially with the internet and there's so much more information whether it be valid or invalid so

00:05:00

saloni surah: 

Cheryl Pankhurst: Approach these conversations with their teens. How do we start and what age do we start talking about? Even the bare minimum of what they need to know for that age?

saloni surah: So I think it has to be So each person is individual, setting it as a rule of you've got to do when they're five or ten or fifteen really, you've got to tailor it and I don't think there's a right or wrong to it and I think one of the things to start with this it's okay to say look.

saloni surah: I'm finding this hard and I don't know how to start this conversation with you. And I know I should and I'm sorry if it's icky or asking them if there's somebody else they would prefer to talk to or do you know what I mean? So I think Honesty goes a long way with gosh.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

saloni surah: I'm finding this really nervous. And I know I should or all of that stuff but because I think that just what if we're all vulnerable open or honest, it breaks down barriers one of the things that I used to find and when we had HIV patients that transitioned from the Pediatric service Adult Services teenagers, it was always challenging for them and I never presumed another judge. So I would just presume that anyone that came into me with sexually So I never said are you sexy active? I just say when we last section or when did you help us have any sexual activity?

saloni surah: And for me that just worked because there was no assumption and if they said yes whenever or no then that was fine predominantly the had been but I suppose I'm also somebody who's used to talking about it and certainly the first time when I started working this field of medicine, it was challenging it took a bit of getting used to and some people just aren't fit for it. And I think that's okay as long as you probably get them to the right place and it depends on where the right place is or who the right people are and there's no one size fits all that's what I always say about medicine. What suits me and fits me. Is it more suits you it isn't what suits my children isn't what suits your children everyone's different.

Cheryl Pankhurst: and knowing that if we don't have some control over where their information is coming from they are getting the information.

saloni surah: Yes, yes.

Cheryl Pankhurst: And so whether it's from their friends or online they're getting that information.

saloni surah: Mm-hmm

Cheryl Pankhurst: So I'm wondering. if you you're 14 year old comes to you I'm not gonna say comes to you you see on their phone.

saloni surah: Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: You see a message you recognize that they are sexually active. Now what?

saloni surah: So it's how you approach it, isn't it? So I think if you're non-judgmental and it's the tone and the manner and how you speak to them because you do want to talk to them and you do want to make sure that they're being safe from STI point of view and from pregnancy point of view and that it's consensual, because that's a big thing not just for teens but adults as well, unfortunately and with children that I've seen obviously there are clinics everywhere. So one of the things is, you could take them down to a clinic and a lot of those clinics will have and certainly in UK and Ireland. We have kind of Health visitors or counselors and they do more of the educational psychological support inside and most of The Young Person's clinics.

saloni surah: Have much more of the counseling So there are places that you can go even if you don't that they are sex reactive where you can go and they can go and talk people and be educated now. I'm sure obviously in the US there's similar such Services, so it varies from area to area but usually there are young clinics for younger people special because for younger people often that have contraception that will have more of the counseling and the safeguarding and that stuff in place and many parents. Brought children then it may be one maybe they come with a friend that many younger adults or teens have gone in with parents to those clinics that I've seen over the years.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Mm- so talking about HIV which honestly when I started connecting with you and then reading your bio, I have not heard that. in so long I just feel like it's something that went in a box. That was a big thing in the 80s and it went how prevalent is it now and what do we need to be talking to our teens about that sort of thing?

saloni surah: So, I mean it's now a chronic to see so we're down to one tablet once a day in injectables things have changed phenomenally over the last few years and ever weasel carrot stick a bit like diabetes and it's essentially normal lifespan, but obviously prevention is better than cure. There are preventative that therapies out there. So kind of parts of Africa in many have sex with the men's that they do give preventative HIV meds for individuals. It's called preposure for laxious to prevent, HIV Transmission in the higher risk groups.

00:10:00

saloni surah: But it's not just about sex. we see in intangers a lot more, sterile juice and injection of that and hepatitis C risks, because there's a lot of young Lads it's all about the gym and looking ripped and the proteins and stuff. So, we would have seen a lot of younger Lads, taking steroids and certainly, I think about my kind of flatmates kind of five ten years ago. Some of them were very clearly on steroid from the behavioral changes in the moods and the Not to further eating and all of that. So there's also that aspect. So, it's a chronic stable disease, but prevention is better than cure and there is prevention out there. So it's important I think to talk, and obviously it's great. Certainly, I remember growing up and those terrible days and the terrible adverts that we used to have on the TV that were.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

saloni surah: Cheryl think another way to put it and that has left to stay in a lot of us of different age groups of that and I know people who just have never tested even though they're not high risk, I've certainly tested over the years because I'm a doctor working this field but many of my friends from Medical School testers, they were just like I haven't been safe for I have or it's just a good thing to do. I mean a new relationship and I want to know where I am. So I think going and getting tested

saloni surah: Regularly is a good thing to a lot of these infections can be present with no symptoms, especially in women. So it's a good thing to do at beginning of relationship or once a year or depending on your level of sexual activity. it's nice to know that everything's all clear and the tests of very non-invasive for a lot of them you could do the swabs yourself in clinics and blood tests. It can be quite quick in and out.

Cheryl Pankhurst: That's good to know and yes, it was so shocking to me to actually just read about it because I thought it's been so long since and that's the unawareness for me. So if I had a teenager now, would I be even talking about I might not have even thought about it. or STDs or All the things that come around with, the risks of sexual activity. and our kids t know. I feel like they are.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Maybe not understanding. What? consent really is

saloni surah: So this is the other things you don't want to scare them because ultimately what we want for children and teens is to have healthy sexual enjoyable relationships that are consensual that are enjoyable because it's in a really important part of life. So certainly for me I don't want to label us something dirty or disgusting it's a Really important part of life. It's something that can be incredibly enjoyable. But we want people to be safe. We want people to be a consensual and I think one of those things is consensual can be challenging at any age, but especially when you're a teenager, so we always used to be caught, anxious or cautious if somebody came in there's a big discrepancy in age like five years or so, especially if they were younger. There are inequalities in all relationships. So, the last time I was working in London, they were estimated like domestic violence as a one and three one four women.

saloni surah: certainly in you could also say it quite prevalent in who have sex with other man some of those relationships. And we have big cohort of men who were hearing impaired and also sex act of other man, and you also wondered how they were able to negotiate especially what was often scenes where there was a lot of music and how you negotiated that so I think It's something that needs to be discussed. And again, I'm not sure there's a particular wrong or right way and it really depends on the individual but I suppose there's no harm in getting them down to clinics and getting them into service and used to that. But it's also how we talk about healthy relationships and enjoyable relationships that are pleasurable for this safe and then a consensual

Cheryl Pankhurst: how do we have the conversations with our kids too where you can say? You can change your consent at any point in time.

saloni surah: close Of course, I mean so I worked as a sexual assault examiner for a while as well. And I also know I have a many of that older female age group. Their first experiences were non-consensual, there's a lot of trauma in that and how that formed often through a lot of these women that relationships moving forward in that there was almost relationships had this element of it non-being consensual moving forward because that was their first experience and that kind of formed it.

00:15:00

saloni surah: I think it's talking so, I'm not a psychologist and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: me

saloni surah: I'm not a counselor, certainly it's something I will talk about. And we are much more aware of this now consent. So I can't remember whether you've seen it and it might just be a UK thing. There was a big thing about tea and pouring milk into somebody's tea this big advert for kids. I think teenagers about you wouldn't just pour your milk into somebody's tea with that asking them and how that was used as an energy, but actually it's a really good one because you wouldn't just walk up to something going right just before my milk and your tea, but you're totally right with that consent can change at any point.

saloni surah: I think it's challenging for boys too. I know a lot of boys can be very like, my goodness, you're very clear. Are you sure because that, can I have it and don't move up we've all heard those terrible stories of universities some of those, instance that have not being consensual. and having looked after a lot of women certainly in services or friends who have had non-consensual relationships that whole speaking up if it was non-consensual and the being judged that can often go along with it, especially the court service and I get that because one of the things I didn't want as being into forensic Samuel was that going to court and being, examined, that's scared me so I can't imagine how If you experience how it must be like

Cheryl Pankhurst: and I know it feels like we kind of naturally go down to the female. Wrote about but we need to have these conversations with our sons.

saloni surah: Absolutely. So there was a big thing when I was last in London, and also I'm traveling around Cambodia and they were saying, obviously there's a massive sex industry in Cambodia with younger girls and sex tourism and pedophilia sectorism and how they had forgotten about the boys and the boys were being brought up to hotel rooms and then this kind of thing and though, there's a big instance of kind of Grooming of younger boys or teens as well by older women.

saloni surah: So yes, I would have It just needs to talk a more dialogue. I think unfortunately a lot of the relationships that we see on TV and all this are not healthy not consensual and often a devoid of feelings and emotions. There's this big portion. It used to make me sad of let's just give it away doesn't really matter be sexually active in a rush to be there and experience and maybe you're not ready.

saloni surah: and also that, wanting to be by somebody is more important and I know when I was a teenager, I just wanted a bit of attention to be like, I just didn't think I was good enough and there's so much was, also now with phones and social media of just wanting to looking the same having that and I think it's a lot of pressure on them, it's challenging to not conform to that.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah. Yeah, I'm thinking about kids, doing their s** on the phone. And does that actually now convey the message of consent?

saloni surah: 

Cheryl Pankhurst: When you're in person and How do we give our kids the words to say? No, it doesn't matter what I said before. It doesn't matter what I said 30 seconds ago doesn't matter what I'm saying, right? No is no and how do we give them those skills?

saloni surah: Again, I think its talking. I mean, I have this conversation. I've got two children under five about obviously you want them to listen to adults. But also, I want them to question adults. I don't want to just be like, they're a teacher they can do it they want okay,…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yes.

saloni surah: so, you don't have to do something if it doesn't feel right and if something's wrong in the nursery or people are crying or the staff are crying then I need you to tell me what I mean? So I think it's conversations that we need to be having of, okay.

saloni surah: Your child is going to be sexually active at some point at some point. You're going to need to have those conversations the sooner the better practicing or if you feel that you're not able Outsourcing it going to services but also, and I don't know because I haven't run those clinics any and for a while but finding online but having those conversations if is important you can always say no you can always change your mind. you have a voice and what You won't matters. I think it's the more you keep on saying and conveying it that you deserve the best I think little we are told that we are good enough and we deserve the best and we can say no to things and we don't need to put up with things and that's through truth throughout the board. I know certainly my teens my 20s and my 30s. I didn't think I was good enough I didn't deserve and

00:20:00

saloni surah: and I think I look good enough and I think my body was good enough and that's something we all I think generally go through so I just think talking is so important and we don't do enough of that. maybe things are changing but That wasn't that what I grew up with and it wasn't a lot of people I know grew up with.

Cheryl Pankhurst: yeah. No, I did not grow up with any conversation I grew up with. I think maybe two months before I got married. My mom said we talk about

Cheryl Pankhurst: that was literally the only conversation I had so Parents do…

saloni surah: 

Cheryl Pankhurst: what they can with what they know. This is not a slam but also there was no cell phones. There was no internet.

saloni surah: Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: We weren't exploring with p***. We were that sort of thing and so Actually, let's talk about that. Let's talk about

Cheryl Pankhurst: What are we saying to that because Those are some messages.

saloni surah: They are so we used to have you young boys coming in thinking that all women were shaved, and that, all women wanted to anal or threesomes and it's not real life. it sex is messy people have her Things don't work. but it is a part of life now. And again when I was growing up there were page three magazines, it's changed a lot in a short space of time. Again, I think it's talking about it,

saloni surah: I know a lot of people that have had addictions to p*** and I've even had a partner there and a preferred the p*** to having a partner there that will get up and go and do that and that it's so disconnected, isn't it? it's almost an easy connection. You don't have to talk or think or feel it's all perfect and Stage, whereas like I say, the reality of sex is Massey. Is that what you want? Am I doing it, right? there's noises there's smells there's bodies that are perfect. it's not film from angle. We all have roles. Yeah, but it's also funny too. But if you're insecure then that's almost easier because it's not going to hurt you in that way. You're not going to get hurt and here are you it's that to Association and impersonalness.

saloni surah: So again, I think it is talking about it when I was growing up. We had a couple of those Judy Bloom books that talks about sex and they were actually very good and they're all so I think talking about sex and what arouses you some of the erotic literature Maybe. More of a software and easy way in and certainly with some people clients. I've known in the past who have had non-consensual relationships, but obviously want to go on and a witness or have relationships is about exploring that themselves on their own and that often is something that I've advised as a softerly boy into it that it's reading it's controlled. It's not screen. It's a bit more kind of sensual and helps them to hopefully develop a bit more in a different way.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah, I think it's important to maybe talk about. If there has been any kind of sex without consent and you've kind of packed that away. Can we talk about how important it is to not pack that away and to look for someone somehow to release that trauma because it will stay.

saloni surah: So absolutely a hundred percent. I'm all for that. So most clinics certainly in the UK in Island will have Cancer's touch. So there are Specialists. I don't know about the US on imagine. It's the same they usually Specialists assault sexual assault centers with forensic examiners who should have counselors and that on site usually they are free. There is also look, I have PTSD from quite bad workplace bullying the stalking and psychologists. And what was amazing for me and I talk about it because I didn't know as a doctor.

00:25:00

saloni surah: But what was amazing was because the treatment transformed my life and it was called EMDR rapid eye movement desensitization therapy and that was phenomenal. So, finding a good psychologist. If you feel that you don't want to go there because I've had coaching clients who have been raped plenty plus years ago, maybe by people have had long relationships with they don't want to talk about they don't want to go there and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: mmm

saloni surah: I'm like look we need to go there. We need to talk about this or teenage girls. That's been the first sexual experience. You kind of get them in and you want to get them support. So, a good psychologist who does something like EMDR or somebody trained in that so they can really help you process that trauma so that you can move on because sex is a part of life. It's something that does make us feel good.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

saloni surah: It's about healthy relationship and I have seen people go on to have healthy enjoyable relationships a lot of women. I know, I've looked after quite a few so obviously with the sexual trauma as a doctor with some of the coaching clients

saloni surah: to find that those women tend to gravitate to me and it's trying to get them to open up the fact that they have been because they don't want to go there. They may have tried to speak to somebody about it. Maybe if I remember being shot down. Obviously, this is for men too. I'm just talking about from my friends from experience and may well have been a friend of the family as well.

saloni surah: And the kind of said I've gone on and I've had enjoyable and healthy sexual relationships, but you don't really that bit shut down so it could be quite painful. It's tough. I mean, honestly it is tough to open up. It is tough to talk about it. It's hard. It's the emotional but it doesn't go away it will last in there people can sense and feel It will go with you. It will affect your relationships. It will affect yourself Steam and it gets passed on so you can see, we are the products of our parents and they're upbringing and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

saloni surah: certainly, I shouldn't be talking here talking about sex my ancestry and bringing and family. I've told that sex is dirty all sex as dirty all of that stuff and then I became a sexual health doctor so you can break that rule, but you can see that that gets pasta right down by Generations or somebody also does the coaching and I feel and see that in

saloni surah: And clients that came to me. So, I worked on a more levels than the just straightforward level so you can see that and My wish is that nobody hide that everyone is supported with processing that rauma. Obviously, it would be amazing. If we were in a position where nobody went through trauma like that. and whilst that's not the case. It's really about supporting people whether the women whatever being supported were the old or young and finding the right people to support you. But please don't suffer alone. I think that's the thing. Please find somebody and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: then

saloni surah: usually there are sexual sock clinics. It doesn't matter who you are and they have counselors on site and they may not be the best but it's a start and then, …

Cheryl Pankhurst: yeah.

saloni surah: you can look for other counters that specialize in things like EMDR or CBT because

saloni surah: we want you to go on and have healthy sexual relationships. It's a really important part of life.

Cheryl Pankhurst: And I sometimes read if there has been. Colonists actually assault and I feel like sex shouldn't even be the word in there because it's just violent. And maybe we should talk about that being able to talk to our kids about the difference between sexual assault is just violence. It's not sex.

Cheryl Pankhurst: If you know what I'm trying to say.

saloni surah: It's often a power imbalance. So I find the energy of it often a power and bowel and you've been disempowered. it's like kind of having your wings ripped in a way and I talk about that because I've got a book coming out with wings being clipped for me, which is former bullying. So it's an energetic power imbalance, and it's terrible it's horrific. It's horrible. And the other thing is these individuals it's often not just one person. They do it to it's often repeated. And continued because they get away with it.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Just before we wrap up. I do want to touch sex work I don't think enough people especially in schools Educators parents are aware enough.

saloni surah: Yeah.

00:30:00

Cheryl Pankhurst: of what to look for what the signs are how we can help how we can educate I feel like it still is As much as we hear about it more than we ever did I still feel like it's this tight little box that really needs to be exposed more. What would you?

saloni surah: So I don't think there's one size fits all I have looked up to plenty of sex workers and a lot in the UK and Island and the majority of the ones I looked after were women, but a lot of men do it too, but I don't think there's any particular signs and symptoms the majority of the ladies that I looked after were older and actually the last few years A none had come in from overseas. So, …

Cheryl Pankhurst: Okay.

saloni surah: there are a lot of Chinese that were being brought in and that were being moved around but all different ethnicities and some of them were just people who were older and had families obviously is happening more in the young individuals too. So certainly is somebody who has looked after them. I don't again think there's one size fits all

saloni surah: they're usually the big sexual health clinics. There will be Specialists clinics for them because we used to do them as well and things like ensuring that people are vaccinated, contraception regular check-ups from an st. I point of view in the UK in Ireland. They weren't traditionally high risk for HIV and the end of it, the people that were selling sex that were being seen But that may well have changed and I mean things do change quickly that obviously you've also got the mass of homeless cohorts, but usually they're specialist services. So, certainly in East London there were more kind of with the individuals at homeless on the street bosses and stuff going around. So there's usually really individual intervention specialist Services run for them.

saloni surah: And initiating conversations and spotting it. it's a good question so I say I don't have a specific answer for you. I

Cheryl Pankhurst: That's okay. I wasn't clear as soon as you started answering me about. Okay, I wasn't clear on my question. That's my fault. I'm thinking more of the sex trafficking. I'm wondering…

saloni surah: Right, okay.

Cheryl Pankhurst: if there's something That teachers could recognize our parents could recognize that maybe there's something going on here.

saloni surah: sounds

Cheryl Pankhurst: That shouldn't be

saloni surah: I think with these things is often a feeling. I'm gonna be really honestly like I would have patience walking in and I'd go this one's being sexually abused as a child is this one's being raped and often it's feeling and that's a funny thing in medicine. I'm short probably the same with teachers and you get these feelings and you can't explain I've had patience and I've gone just not sure and I've done this scan and they've got it and you're like that shouldn't be but it's just a sixth sense. Obviously, I think…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Mm-hmm

saloni surah: if somebody is

saloni surah: Often from a different nationality and we know that there are nationalities that are higher risk. if they are scared or…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

saloni surah: shy or really shut down, they are always Signs of somebody wanting avoiding eye contact really shut down. Not on their own so usually for someone with them and it can be challenging, to try and get them on their own. again In specialist Services. Usually you've got the counselors and stuff. So you've got a few access points to do that. I suppose you can always write it down and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: mmm

saloni surah: ask and if you've got a moment or kind of try and make a

saloni surah: What's the word advised diversion or? Some way that you can get them on their own. I mean we were very lucky in Connect that you often had people that you can go and bounce ideas off and go what did you think are usually had a chaperone or nursing so it was usually something that you could think about but means most Services have safeguarding leads in schools and child care have that and hospitals and services Health Services the children and Sexual Health Service will all have safeguarding in Pediatrics. So they're always good places to start but I think it's often just a feeling and you can't put your finger down on it, and that's not the answer that you wanted,…

Cheryl Pankhurst: .

saloni surah: but that's how these things. For work because we're human and it's senses and things that you can't pin down where you're I'm just not happy with us or sure.

Cheryl Pankhurst: It's so true and I know teachers do have that almost six cents? I think what I'd like to say here is that if you have that Sixth Sense take it further.

saloni surah: Yes.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Ask the questions. Are there any programs that we can build into even our health classes preventative programs to create awareness as they do sexual health and they do STDs is there some kind of learning process that we can put in place in schools prior to just for awareness.

00:35:00

saloni surah: So I'm sure there are and I'm sure I'm probably not the right person. So I'm sure more of the psychological social logical interventions in surfaces would be better for that. So with that I doubt there must be and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: right

saloni surah: I'm just gonna put my hand up and say, I'm no problems are saying this is the edge of my limitation here. Nobody works in isolation. That's the thing. It's not up to you. one foot thing but I think often what I found has worked very well for me is people come in and that's all these rounding symptoms and they've seen five people that's like sometimes it back and go what's really going on here is everything. Okay and that often opens the doorway not are you there? Sorry that what's good really going on is everything okay, and it's surprising how that opens the doorway of

saloni surah: People opening up that being said I've had individuals who I know have been selling sex or that kind of thing and I've done that and they are just not willing to go there and you can't force people if they're not ready if they don't want to is the other thing you can do as your best and provide that space of going look I'm always here if you want to talk but I often find that one of the and especially, it's a great thing to teenagers. what's really going on. Is there anything you'd like to talk about? just leaving it open and again it's difficult to pull into words because sometimes of course we're humans. It's individualized us to who's sitting in front of you and What you feel is the right thing to say, but often those open-ended. Is everything all right? what's really going on?

saloni surah: They can be really powerful. We'll just opening their floodgates to those open questions rather than Are you selling sex while you're doing this? what's going on? Because it may be something else all together totally different and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

saloni surah: that opens the doorway for that discussion of okay, and I think just being open if you are a parent and you have no idea where to start there are always connects to go to ask for advice and you can always take Them for advice, even if they're not sexy active. It's getting them used to that and the services.

saloni surah: There will be something but is everything Is there anything you want to talk to me about? I know that a lot of children your age are probably doing this and this I know it must be difficult to talk to me about it, but you always can or if you want me to help you find something else and I am here for you and those open-ended conversations of and you can say look. I'm not sure how to do this. we can find our way together.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I love that. I think that's the mic drop asking those open-ended conversations. And I think what you said at the beginning is Talking of course having the conversations, but if you don't feel comfortable. Or your kids going to feel more comfortable talking to someone else. Drop the ego and put them in front of that someone else.

saloni surah: Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I think that is really good advice because sometimes we just don't know what to say or something. We have our own trauma. And how are we gonna talk to our kids about our own trauma? know As soon as we're triggered. We know there's something that's triggered us. I think those open-ended conversations and finding someone your kid trust I think is so vitally important.

saloni surah: Absolutely. do you know what just came to my head? There's a parent and coats that my husband and I fell on Instagram and she has these really good cards. They're not cheap. But the name it's like, you have a voice and your important part of this family. I'm sure they're out there but we need stuff like that around sexual health and for teens that there are really good starting point. Now my husband and I are very different. My husband's Italian and obviously this isn't his main language. So for him, it's a little harder now, I kind of have those conversations with my children to bed. This is conversation with the girls in the podcast if I'm really

saloni surah: Glad to be your mummy and I'm really lucky and he's always like I don't know what to say and for him. It's hard. I just saying that Sports is not us…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

saloni surah: but main language but he's just not as expressive as me. I've also spent 10 15 years talking to numerous patients every day, you…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

saloni surah: and one of the things I kind of loved about my job was meeting all these people, but I'm sure there must be but if not Cheryl that's what you need to be doing that the box of cards and they were cheap, but they were like, everyone in the family has a voice and Brilliance of there must be in the Clinics of things that you can have or the parents to initiate those conversation because sometimes if you just have that started to the conversation.

00:40:00

saloni surah: It opens up and again, is there anything you want to talk to me about I can see that you're worried about something. Is there anything I can help with? I'm those kind of things of are you? Okay is everything all right? Because it might be something altogether different.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I love that and I'm going to do some research for those cards. I'm gonna do that soon as I hang up here. I think that's great. Yeah.

saloni surah: I mean then they're probably there but I'm sure I can't think of the name I'll remember but you that they're just the nice cards because the nice starting points if you're not that used to doing it of having those conversations and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

saloni surah: and I think probably that's it. lot of people aren't used to that. So to having that starting point of right I can say this and practicing so, sense funny but I often will practice difficult conversations for somebody I need to speak to and they've done something that's not nice. It might be a family member or there's a power and balance all of them practice it in the mirror and walking around so I think it's okay to practice it so that…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Such a good idea. Yeah.

saloni surah: but it's one of those things, with medicine you do these clinical exams and you have to present things and so suppose I got into the habit of practicing that and then I started practicing, I'm somebody who

saloni surah: Doesn't really like conflict and you can't avoid it and it seems to become a unit comes into my life the conversations you have to practice of if you're managing staff or difficult conversation that people under performing. And it's far better if you practice it rather than just going into it, because if you're not used to it or not, I've not put time into what you want to say. It's not suddenly going to come out perfect, whereas if you practice it and you try and you don't front of the mirror and you're feeling more comfortable because you've done it a few times. It's a bit like a presentation. It's just easier and it flows. So, I think there's the other things of practice or try it with each other and it's gonna feel awkward and it's gonna feel strange if there's something that those cards and they would be a great starting point.

saloni surah: to that, but I say I go back to my kids and say to them at night, Yeah, I love you so much. And I'm always gonna love you no matter what you do, and I think those are really big things because we grow up or we think that our parents are gonna for sometimes their love is dependent on how Behavior our actions but actually if you tell somebody I'm always gonna love you no matter what you do and I'm lucky to be a mom or dad or that, you're always safe and protected. me

saloni surah: Then that's great. I know that Summits that some of those coaches one of the other things that I'd seen that was really good was they had a thing with their teenagers where they had a message where they could text if they were friends and say it was like a come now or I need you now and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

saloni surah: they would come straight away one task a question and just pick them up and I think that's brilliant. So things like that if you have that in place of if they're uncomfortable, it doesn't matter what it is if you're uncomfortable than I'm there. I'm not gonna ask you a question. It's gonna be my fault that I'm there. There's no blame on you and I'm there. So I think things like that of having something in place if your child or teenager is uncomfortable no longer wants to be there where it is your thought and you take the blame having some kind of

saloni surah: practice of trying to talk to them saying what is it is everything okay and those card type things and then the other point that I was getting from the teenagers from that podcast is I often do read alouds my social media books. I looked after a lot of adults who were illiterate and had very bad poverty and the probably didn't have people reading to them. So for me, it's really important to do that. And I said to them that I'm tiktok. I often got comments from teenagers saying that they were gonna put the light off put the pajamas on and listen to it. And these are younger kids books and they went I'm not surprised because we just want to be read to kids. Do you know and that really kind of surprised me and So I think maybe going back to that love of saying I'm really pleased to be your mom because often these are

saloni surah: five roles and 15 year old's bodies that just want to be loved that don't know how to navigate and find their play way-facing all the feel nervous. They're trying to stand on their own and I'm always gonna love you no matter what

Cheryl Pankhurst: And it sticks, my son is 34. And we'll still say to me make good choices and…

saloni surah: No.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I've said that to them since they were three years old and it sticks so yes those fma Voices in their head it stays there. It does not go even if you think they're not listening, they're listening.

00:45:00

saloni surah: But even if you make a bad choice of failure was good. We all learn from failure.

Cheryl Pankhurst: You for sure.

saloni surah: There's no failures. There's no right or wrong. So I think obviously when I was growing up there was a lot of you God do the right thing and do this and do that and that was parental societal and cultural pressure of whatever but it's all learning curve. Nothing has ever wrong. If you do something wrong, it can be undone, and …

Cheryl Pankhurst: .

saloni surah: it's that going back to the parenting when you're a child to focusing on the good things which can be really hard and not the one bad thing. They've done

Cheryl Pankhurst: yeah, and I like to even the idea of practicing what was going through my head when you were saying that is that If you take a step back, it's always that every conversation I have on this podcast always comes back to there's the pause right? There's the react or there's the pause and then there's a response and the pauses so important and when you're talking about the practice like I'm picturing this mom of a 13 year old kid reading on her phone that she sexually active don't react there go to your room and practice this conversation. So the emotion now is gone. That heavy guilt whatever it is, you're feeling about anger is gone. And now you're just having a conversation with those beautiful questions that you presented already. So I let that's always going through my head when he thought practicing that Because now you're not in it now you're not fired up.

saloni surah: You're The other thing that's great. And I just wanted the girls about was the emotional Freedom technique. I don't know whether you've heard of it, but as a technique that's free usually hands and you working on tapping points. And that is brilliant just bringing the fight or flight terms. Even you as the parent tapping when you've maybe read a text message that you shouldn't have and they're going like you say you're reacting but if you go and talk to them now, it's just gonna go instead of right. I need to calm the sound or doing it with them. sometimes I will do that with my kids and I'll be like, I want me to have a really hard time. No, it's really challenging day and sometimes I lose it but even doing that with them so they can self-regulate so that you're able to stop regulate but Practicing difficult conversations I think is really important because …

Cheryl Pankhurst: No.

saloni surah: they're difficult you love your child practicing difficult conversations.

saloni surah: If there is something like those cards for sexual consensual sex amazing,…

Cheryl Pankhurst: No.

saloni surah: and I think it's still important to say. I'm so lucky to be your mum.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

saloni surah: I'm gonna love matter There are no choices in here. You have a voice is All right, because I think so many times. Those children or teens probably want to say but nobody's given them that way and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

saloni surah: if you just say it's All Is there anything? Going on and that just opens the doorways for hopefully whatever needs come out to come out.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I love it. Thank you so much. This was a beautiful conversation and much needed based on what I see and social media. I think that's why I really wanted to do this is I see that concern so I want to get it out there. So people have more information Dr. Saloni. Thank you so much. I'm going to put all of your resources in our show notes.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Welcome to another episode of Teen Minds redefined where we strive to redefine the relationships we have with our teens. We want to Foster them to become their own authentic selves as they grow into these beautiful human beings on the planet. And today. I have a wonderful guest Dr. And Dr. Alan Mueller is a passionate advocate for authentic transformation. He started adaptive challenge Consulting in 2014 to help organizations navigate their greatest challenges through listening and real conversations, Dr. Mueller has worked in finance sales higher education and even hospitality

Cheryl Pankhurst: There is unique journey of failures and successes. He has gained insight into organizational leadership and development Dr. Mueller always brings authenticity and humor with him whether assisting organizations on their inclusion efforts or helping them evaluate their programs. Welcome Dr. Alan Mueller.

Alan Mueller: Thank you so much. that bio makes me feel important. Thanks.

Cheryl Pankhurst: You are. And full disclosure. I want to say this because We find our guests from very different places. I do.

Alan Mueller: Sure.

Cheryl Pankhurst: They never pay me to guest. But we can be on Facebook groups. I could be on Instagram and see somebody's energy and not know how many followers they have or what they have or who they are and just say I really like their energy. So I believe we were on Facebook group for I think guesting on podcasts.

Alan Mueller: aha

Cheryl Pankhurst: And your blurb about your kids and your life and I'm like, okay, I want him on here energy is standard. And so the energy that we exchange is never money. It is the energy where we feel like,

Cheryl Pankhurst: This is what I want to bring to my audience. These are parents of teens. Mainly I do hope that parents can coerce their kids into listening to some of these podcasts on the way to the mall…

Alan Mueller: Do kids still go to the mall.

Cheryl Pankhurst: if you want to ride. This is what you have to listen to.

Alan Mueller: I thought that's not the 80s the

Cheryl Pankhurst: Okay, listen. we're gonna have a problem if you're gonna age me through this whole

Alan Mueller: I feel like we're in a pretty similar zone. So I mean I feel like we had the best music and running from garden hoses and rode on Rusty slides and things. Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: And my kids are wearing the clothes.

Alan Mueller: Yeah. They're back in style.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I wore in the 80s. So take that to the bank. That's right. So,…

Alan Mueller: Wow.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I want to start with you have love and logic parenting developmental psychology of teens. I want to talk about that and I find that. when I sit down I want to ask this and I want to ask this and I want to ask this and then we start talking and we never get to there because then we start talking about something else. That's really important. So talk to me first about…

Alan Mueller: Sure.

Cheryl Pankhurst: what you do who you are this whole thing that you have in your house. Dive In

Alan Mueller: Yes, so I spent 20 years in sort of a career working with college students. And so I worked in this thing called student affairs and student affairs is all the things that make colleges and universities tick outside the classroom. So it's the career center. It's the counseling center. it's the residence Halls. It's the Multicultural Center. It's all those things and then I'm married to a school counselor. My wife works with children, little children kindergarten through fifth but both of us at the heart of what we studied in our master's degrees was developmental psychology. Right? It's that the idea and if you're listeners aren't familiar with that notion. It's just the idea that when someone's a kindergartener, they're making sense of the world in a certain way. And by the time there are third grader, they're gonna be making sense of the world in a more complex way and on and on and on and then when they're a teenager and then when they're a young adult Etc and so developmental psychology and the idea that people are learning

Alan Mueller: Wing constantly is at the heart of what both of us studied formally then my wife went to a seminar on love and logic parenting and brought a book home. Right when we had our first kid and my gosh, it was the best thing ever. I have a 19 year old in the 15 year old. I have never ever had a temper tantrum in my house. I've never had a slammed door with them yelling. You don't understand trying to draw out the learning and…which is things that people told me I was going to have A teenagers and I think my experience as a gen xer. I mean, I think that I was used to that and the love and logic system. I can't say enough. it's an amazing system and two the thing that's really cool is when I was working in colleges universities. I'm helping students.

00:05:00

Alan Mueller: Plan that the next formal dance or I'm helping them with a leadership program, but I'm 

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: the love and logic system fit me so well, and I told my wife I'm like this is just sort of what I do in my profession organically, be empathetic and hold them accountable and then support them if they need support and don't forget to remind them that consequences happen the love and the logic that was a part of my practice anyway, and now there was this book that helped us to our kids. Yeah, yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Holy Grail, Holy Grail, empathy is so I work a lot with them CPS Ross green and it's all about empathy and it's all about, expectations and behavior the slamming of the doors and the temper tantrums are just secondary just a piece of communication saying I can't do what you need me to do and I don't know how to handle that and…

Alan Mueller: Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: when we put that lens on and we keep it on tight our relationships with our kids with anyone. You…

Alan Mueller: Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: it's like students do well when they can. And so when they can't…

Alan Mueller: Right, right.

Cheryl Pankhurst: then it's time for us to sit down and have those conversations and I think it's so important. So it's funny. I Worked in student affairs for the last three years for 25 years. I worked with very high needs.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Students in high school nonverbal ASD physical aggression a lot of that.

Alan Mueller: Okay, okay.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I work or a lot of Kevlar for a lot of years. And then the last few years of my role was also in student affairs in a high school.

Alan Mueller: Yeah, yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: So helping kids get ready for post-secondary and…

Alan Mueller: Okay.

Cheryl Pankhurst: it overlapped because I was also that disabilities Advocate where there's a lot of steps you can take there's a lot of supports in colleges and universities now and…

Alan Mueller: Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: so it's that transition. so I feel you first of all, I send a trophy to your wife because Those younger kids nope. Nope. I don't know…

Alan Mueller: Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: how teachers do it and I love teenagers. I love to sit in a room with them. I love their energy. I love their honesty most of the time and…

Alan Mueller: Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: and I say this all the time. I sometimes rather spend time with teenagers and some adults. But the younger kids hats off.

Alan Mueller: Yep, and I'll tell you in our community in North Carolina. We live in a Metro region with about two and a half million people that's three mid-sized cities, but in our County she works at the only inclusion elementary school. That's an inclusion school. And then the college I worked at two colleges ago, which was the only Quaker College in the south of the US was known very very well in the autistic Community as an Autism Spectrum friendly campus, but we had a lot of students and we weren't at the Universal Design stage and I don't yeah,…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yep, absolutely.

Alan Mueller: we weren't there but we had it on our radar in other words. We were striving towards it so, and there's other stories. I can tell there about a class called improv comedy and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: the Art of the job interview.

Cheryl Pankhurst: yes.

Alan Mueller: And so I'm an improv comedian. I've been doing it for about nine years. And we had this little mini semester a little three and a half week term where we could teach one experience base course and I ran the career center and I was like, how do I make applying for jobs not boring because it's boring and so I started teaching this class called Improv Comedy in the art of the job interview because every job interview you'll ever do is improv, right? I mean someone asked you a question you don't have and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yep.

Alan Mueller: then I got to work through some of my biases because

Alan Mueller: So sorry, I got a phone.

Cheryl Pankhurst: No problem.

Alan Mueller: I got a phone call and I pressed the client. for your editor's purposes? Okay, so I was teaching a course called improv comedy and the Art of the job interview and campus where I worked was an Autism friendly campus and students who I talked previously on the Spectrum, would typically bring me an accommodation and in the US system. They bring you an accommodation where you alter the course a little bit to provide an environment free of distraction those kinds of things. And I realized my course could have been called distraction 101 because improv comedy is like how do you navigate The Art of distraction, And so when I had an autistic student or to take the course initially I had to think twice I had some biases I had to unpack And then once we got into it and once you understand that being a good improv comedian is not about being creative and witty. It's about following rules.

00:10:00

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah bingo.

Alan Mueller: and it not only is about following rules. It's also about the best improv Comics have this amazing ability to sort of zone out on the nonverbals that their partner is giving. And if you know something about folks autism spectrum disorder, it's not a universal experience, but many people in that community.

Alan Mueller: Quote unquote struggle with I'm gonna put quotes here but challenged by reading nonverbals that people who aren't on the Spectrum read very intuitively. That's actually an amazing asset when you're doing an improving to not getting your head about what your scene partner's nonverbals doing to actually listen to the literal things.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yes.

Alan Mueller: They're saying and So I taught that course for five or six years and by the time I was in my third year the secret was out and I had so many students on the Spectrum taking my course and some of them were the best improvisers I ever taught and it was such got to check my own biases a little bit…

Cheryl Pankhurst: That's amazing.

Alan Mueller: because I was like, of course, I'm gonna support them and I'm gonna do the accommodations that they need but I had some anxiety about their fitting into how I had thought of the class and it was education for me as well, which was awesome.

Cheryl Pankhurst: becomes a superpower

Alan Mueller: My gosh such as we actually would take the students to The Comedy Club. And one of them ball it was an audience volunteer got up on stage and didn't did this thing and then my colleagues from The Improv troop leader was like do you think he's interested in joining The Troop I'm like, he's 19 so I don't know,

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah. That's amazing.

Alan Mueller: Yeah, but it was really cool. Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: so I could just go down so many different paths, but what I want to talk about is and…

Alan Mueller: Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: it just kind of struck me this morning. And you're going to be that the other side of it, so I'm Just at a high school.

Alan Mueller: Yeah. Sure.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I'm sorry just at a high school. I just retired just that it's good.

Alan Mueller: I knew what you meant. I was with you I was with you.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Thank And I'm sitting here thinking this morning that the kids who entered great nine. in 2020 Are your graduates? in September And I don't want to.

Alan Mueller: Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: There's a lot of great things. We got out of covid. I like to try and focus on some of the positives. but What are we looking at for kids coming In College University.

Alan Mueller: Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I'm going to say it's a blanket post-secondary.

Cheryl Pankhurst: what do we need to tell parents about allowing that to happen because I think what stuck with me the last couple of years were. we've got to fill these gaps and they're going to get into the first year college and they're not going to know this and they're not gonna know that but It's global. Everyone is going to be in the same spot emotionally and socially getting into that first year.

Alan Mueller: Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: So we don't have to pressure the kids right? So, can you talk about that?

Alan Mueller: right

Alan Mueller: So first of all, I would always see these reports about our kids are going to be behind and I'm behind who this was around the globe. so this ultra competitive thing that's very present in the US and in a lot of Western countries, the very competitive thing real and so that weighs on people and it's something else that's sort of in the background is this idea that my student has to do this and get perfect grades and this to make it that and my gosh stop just stop life life is a highway. I'm gonna tell you your listeners. you're talking to somebody. I know my bio sounded like I have my stuff together it took me seven years to finish college and when I finished my GPA was 2.16, right and so I joke with people that my friends graduated magna c** laude and summa c** laude. I just Thank the laude I can't believe he even made it and so, I have a Philosophy degree in my back pocket and my skills mostly I had been a cook and a waiter and a restaurant right? and that was

Alan Mueller: Seven years post high school, that's where I found myself with a Philosophy degree with a c c average and some skills on cooking and waiting tables, right and this idea that your 15 16 17 year old has to have a perfect resume and a perfect this and a perfect that to get the next phase. We have to demystify that. We have to break that down II also too though.

00:15:00

Cheryl Pankhurst: Thank you.

Alan Mueller: As soon as I say I realize I grew up kind of white middle class, And that there are other communities where some of that Perfection is that's gonna unlock this for me educationally, which is gonna help get me out of poverty maybe or help raise my profile in a way that is helpful given what I'm navigating in terms of isms of my community the racisms and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: the transphobia and all that jazz. So I want to say the both hand which is we need to normalize the growth mindset, which failure is part of life. Failure is alert can be a great Learning Partner can be a great old friend. I taught another course called careers in the Arts, music majors and theater majors and I'm a music person and I'm a theater person but don't have a degree in any of that. So I got together with the faculty from the theater department and the music department. But what I did is I brought in all these other people to be in my class who were actually in the field. And it was people who are like, I'm a full-time dad or a full-time mom, and I do set design.

Alan Mueller: Or I'm not rich in famous, but when you need an afro Peruvian drummer in New York or New Jersey, I am the person everyone calls and I make a living at it. Right or I'm a session musician in Nashville. And sure you're not gonna see me on a music video. But if you look at the liner credits of half the stuff you're listening to that's me on the drones kind of thing. Right and these amazing folks who just some amazing amazing stories of failure and success and failure and success. One of the things that kept saying was make friends with rejection right make friends with that.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: So to your point the whole okay, they're entering ice there and their post-secondary thing at a disadvantage. I'm then collectively and compared to what and so it doesn't because those people who are entering first year university. There's a comparable Padre of people who are entering middle school so, the teachers know Educators know the support systems know and the general principles of how to provide support are still there.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yes.

Alan Mueller: The general principles of we are, at colleges universities. Typically there's a lot of time and energy spent on the first year. How do we help students with that first year because if they get past the first year, it's more like they'll graduate and what support system just the orientation program. It's the university 10. Course that's about study skills and those kinds of things and so, colleges universities. They're as ready as they were before and I mean, it's it even though those students may have lost some of the things that a cohort above them had. They also gained some things that are fascinating and interesting and so, I think in the grand scheme of things our kids are much more resilient than we think

Alan Mueller: Right any first time parents like that with my first kid every time a pacifier fell in the ground. I would sterilize it boil it and whatever before giving it back to my kid and then my second kid came along and I was wiping on my shirt. Here you go, right because I had to learn that my children after I had, maybe even dropped my kid on a couch or something right or you have to learn that they're gonna transcend they're resilience and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: yeah.

Alan Mueller: and they have this wealth of Readiness for Change and this is the only World they've known in other…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: There's not a non-covid world for them to miss that they don't miss that…

Cheryl Pankhurst: exactly Yes.

Alan Mueller: because it doesn't exist to that. Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I did one of my first solo episodes was on a pet peeve a helicopter parents.

Alan Mueller: My gosh, and it comes from and it's so interesting because When I held my first child. I described to people first of all after watching my wife give birth I decided that I have uterus because my gosh that was amazing and second of all as I'm holding my first child. I tell people I'm like, yeah, apparently there's a crazy switch in a brain and when you hold a child for many parents, it gets flicked right where all of a sudden…

Cheryl Pankhurst: and then

Alan Mueller: but And before I had a kid, that dog was my fur, baby. And then as soon as I got home with the kid, I was like, that dog's a threat and I love the dog. but all of a sudden the switch, right I have to protect this little human.

Cheryl Pankhurst: yeah.

Alan Mueller: Because I need it because you look at animals, and I go to the Animal Kingdom at Disney a lot with my kids and they talk about a baby giraffe within minutes of being born is standing up and walking around and a lot of animals are like that and humans are so fragile at the beginning. and so the helicopter parent phenomenon, I think comes from

00:20:00

Alan Mueller: The parents not understanding that they have the agency to toggle that switch back off and that they need to and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yes.

Alan Mueller: the more important thing and love the love and logic system doesn't say this per se but my wife and I always kind of said this and then Michelle Obama who in the US she was a first lady like that the wife of the president down here Michelle Obama said this I heard on NPR and I was like, I wish I had copyrighted or something because she said that we're not raising children. We're raising future adults. And my wife and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yes, yes.

Alan Mueller: I always thought that we're not raising children. We're raising. Younger people in the future adults and I am so proud of the adults that my kids are becoming like, I can't even and this is so diametrically opposite of how I was raised. I mean entirely opposite Yeah it yeah, yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah, I was so sure. I was so sheltered in every sense of the word and only child so there was nobody to break the ice and…

Alan Mueller: mmm

Cheryl Pankhurst: and I had a beautiful childhood my parents wonderful. So there's no complaints but notice and…

Alan Mueller: Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yes, but I always say to parents even when they were hovering. I would say. They're going to think you don't have faith in them. To me.

Alan Mueller: Yeah. Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: That is the biggest thing you're telling them. I'm going to fix this because I have no faith how to do this and it's such an empowering. switch

Cheryl Pankhurst: to give them and even this whole when I started this podcast started to be talking to parents of kids who are near Divergent and special education and it has now evolved into we just want our kids to grow up to be themselves not our dreams of what they should be. Not what we missed out on that, University still open make your own application. So as kids are coming into college and choosing their programs What would you say to parents about those programs about picking about allowing?

Alan Mueller: My gosh, stop the pressure. so I'll give you a real quick story. It was first of all, let me frame it to say that the Baby Boomers. Thought that you go to college to learn a certain skill set that is going to be entirely equal to a career and a career you're going to work for that same company forever. I saw something on LinkedIn where it says the Boomers joined a company gen xers joined a profession and the Millennials are joining a life and Building Things around that right?

Cheryl Pankhurst: 

Alan Mueller: And I'm like, my Boomer in-laws and parents and stuff. We're like the company put people

Alan Mueller: Me I was in my profession deeply but I don't know five or six different places. I kept moving place to place and then the Millennials are at least in the US or dramatically changing our work life balance, which is amazing.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Love it.

Alan Mueller: Props the Millennials, but as to that question about I was sitting in this giant meeting with all these heads of Industries and education. It was part of this Consortium in my city has gosh I think two large universities with 50,000 students each and then five or six small private colleges. I mean, it's booming with college Disney universities and then all of this industry FedEx and Volvo trucks and Wrangler jeans. If you've ever had Wrangler jeans or Lee Jeans, that's from my city.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Okay.

Alan Mueller: So I'm sitting here with the CEO of Wrangler jeans Who by the way wears jeans to work, right and the CEO of hondajet and FedEx and all of these companies and all these chancellors and we're talking about how to get college students to want to stay in our city. Our city is a little bit more geared towards families. They want to conscious State and somebody who was that one of the liberal arts colleges. Said I'm curious of all of these leaders of industry and all these leaders here. How many of you either studied liberal arts a study that a LeBron's college or study like a Humanities or social science at a state, Public University Almost everybody in the room. The one exception was they had the city comptroller who's like the finance person and that person had actually studied business everyone else these Titans of Industry.

Alan Mueller: Had all studied Humanities and liberal arts in these kinds of things and so, the idea that you need to rush to a stem major science technology engineering math, because that's where all the jobs are, Etc. Stop. let's Let there sort of the mold versus unfold let your student unfold right the molding Can Happen by how you live your life the example you share. I always say I'm trying to be the Elder. I wish I had right but the idea and I get it I get it because

00:25:00

Alan Mueller: A real thing right paying the rent is a real thing. so for some people can I share a little story about it?

Cheryl Pankhurst: worse

Alan Mueller: And I wrote an article about this once in a student affairs thing where I worked at a Quaker institution, and if you're a listeners or Quakers committed to nonviolence broadly Protestant, although some Quakers would not even consider themselves people of Faith but more philosophical Quakers and I worked at this Quaker institution and Quakers by Nature are sort of against war and weapons and that kind of thing. And I explored this notion where I would go into all these classes with first-year students. I would be that I'm the assistant Dean for career of online take come on into our Center. We're gonna help you reach Your dream is a worthy dream my friend, whatever your dream is come in and we'll help you reach your dream because your dream is worth. And then I had a student come in and say I really want to work in the arms industry.

Alan Mueller: And I'm like, Wait, So your dream isn't worthy dream. I did say that and I'm working at a Quaker place where we are staunchly and forever opposed to violence and you want to work in an industry that only thrives if there is violence and I had this moment of what do I do? Right? What do I do?

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: And so, I don't know where I was going with this exactly but those challenges of the idea of rush to a stem. when I was reflecting on this later. I realized that Even though that's a choice. I would never make and even though it was something that I personally was opposed to. I later learned that this particular young woman grew up with a single mom.

Alan Mueller: And that they didn't come from much money and that she had a connection with somebody who worked in military logistic support equipment or something like that and wanted a job there that was gonna help her Escape poverty. And so the layers were tricky enough that I got an article published about it and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: there were more things too about students that I'm helping to coach to get into graduate school and they're sort of exploring. how much of their queerness might they put on the paper, They put on their statement or all the different things that are the trade-offs that people have to make but…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: but again, to parents and this is the hard part is Parents have their own work to do sometimes right so that's the thing and that's why the love and logic book is so amazing. So I don't sell these books. I didn't write these books. I'm just a fan because If parents who've experienced their own trauma or have their own baggage or want to relive their life through their kid and all the things right? This book give you a little wedge to just be like, so I have the book and the book is this little wedge between this molding. I want you to be my dream of you and be unfolding that's just gonna happen because it's a human being that's on their own journey and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: their journey is gonna go past your journey, so this book can be a wedge even if the parent has their own things because a lot and I've had the privilege that I went to therapy when I was in my late twenties changed my life put me on a path of emotional autonomy and interdependent relationships and all of these things. However, not everybody has that and even if those words to some of your audience is interdependent wait, do I have to Google things right? This it's sort of like boundaries for dummies, right? There was a series of books in the US God computer programming for dummies,…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah, yeah. podcasting for dummies

Alan Mueller: It's podcasting for dummies, but it's like it's so much if it's about boundaries and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: and like you said the helicopter parent thing. Love and Logic resituates the parents from the fixers to the coaches. and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: when a short version I tell people is a kid breaks a toy and they come to you crying love and logic is comfort that kid because I remember what it was like to break a toy. That's a sad thing comfort that kid Hold them. Whatever it is that signifies love for you. Then as they calm down. Don't go fix their problem, be so that toys broken. It's probably not gonna be as much fun to play with and you do have other toys and if you replace that toy, I guess you could do some odd jobs and earn some money and do the things and I'll support you in that. As opposed to so many parents. They hear the kid crying over the broken point. The solution is go buy a new toy.

00:30:00

Alan Mueller: And so you're becoming this fixer of all things and then once you start doing that kids understand psychologically wait without words, they understand if I cry like this I will get that result in this that will get fixed for me. And that does not fair students well for life,…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Good luck in the workplace.

Alan Mueller: it doesn't. Get it, right they have.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I don't like my boss. and Mom's not coming in to fix the supervisor And it starts so young it just needs to start young.

Alan Mueller: haha

Alan Mueller: I've yeah, yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: It's funny the other day my son put a poster real or whatever the hell you want to call it on Instagram and we hadn't talked about this or anything, it so I would come home and tell my mom that my grade six teacher doesn't like me. And she would say and what are you going to do about that? And I was like, yes, it's duck…

Alan Mueller: Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: because I would be in high school and parents would say no. I don't want Mrs. Jones for math because I hear she and I would just say we don't student shop.

Alan Mueller: Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: You can't teach your shop. So we're gonna teach them the skills because she's gonna have Mrs Jones as a supervisor in the next

Alan Mueller: Sorry. I think this time I did I did it right.

Cheryl Pankhurst: That's okay. okay.

Alan Mueller: I was getting a call from my son and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: I just don't.

Alan Mueller: it turned off my camera. Okay?

Cheryl Pankhurst: No problem. And yeah, so it's sticks. I'm telling you it sticks and

Alan Mueller: It does.

Alan Mueller: Uh-huh.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Sorry, not sorry, but that's the way it goes. We have to this is an acceptable.

Alan Mueller: Uh-huh.

Cheryl Pankhurst: We have to get them ready for University. no, we have to get them ready for second semester. And then in second semester,…

Alan Mueller: right Yes.

Cheryl Pankhurst: we're going to get them ready for grade 10 because if the pressure we put on kids when they're 14 saying. Got to get ready got to be this.

Alan Mueller: Yeah, yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: You know what? That's like telling me in March. I need to be ready for Christmas not happening.

Alan Mueller: No, no. and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: It's not even happening in November.

Alan Mueller: yeah, and the thing that's crazy is that The things that they most need to be ready aren't always the academic thing, right and so the SAT and I don't know if north of the border of the Canada. The SAT is going away largely because people realize the SAT measures two things. Are you good at math and you have a strong command of the English language why I got to tell you getting through college is about resilience. It's about accepting when things don't go perfectly according to plan and adapting it's about navigating a system. It's about complex interpersonal relationships with roommates faculty with those are the things that actually predict success in University not algebra and vocabulary the fact that we've boiled it down to algebra vocabulary or I just geometry and vocabulary is really really silly,

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: Yeah, those are important things. I'm not saying those are not important things but those are not the important things. Those are just some of the important. Yeah. Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: That's That's right. When we talk about teachers. I was talking about the math and the sciences and I hate to say this but This is no filter Cheryl, so. There's in my experience a direct correlation between the teachers who? Graduated high school maths and science went straight to University maths and science became teachers math and science. And there is please go work in a bar, please go work it the local Tim Hortons or…

Alan Mueller: Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: coffee shop, please develop because those are the skills.

Alan Mueller: Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Those are the skills you need to have the conversations you need to be able to listen you need to be able to the customers always right in the sense that the customers always doing the best they can so now you're your student your kid,…

Alan Mueller: right

Cheryl Pankhurst: whatever they're always doing the best they can and if they're not we need to figure out what it is, they're struggling with but it's always start with must be really hard. That must be so hard.

Alan Mueller: Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: You must be so frustrated whatever and repeating background. They might be feeling..

Alan Mueller: Yeah, and one of the things you're talking about, I mean, people call it emotional intelligence these days and it's so funny and if you're listeners can't see me. I'm a white guy, right and indigenous communities have had this notion for Millennia, but suddenly a lot of Europeans in North America are like branding it emotional intelligence come to I actually have a webinar coming up on emotional intelligence that so I am exactly the guy that I just talked about but this idea that that be and when you look at the Working World, there are many surveys about even just 15 years ago what leaders were expected to have skills and two things have come out of quote unquote nowhere to get what go up the list which is empathy and integral Intercultural competency. And when I say came out of nowhere people who do leadership development like me, we've been on this for 20 plus years.

00:35:00

Alan Mueller: But the corporate world in the US is starting to go Wait a second. So leaders should have empathy and listing skills and reflect on and speaking of perspectives of others. Should they think about race and gender and those kinds of things to be better leaders,…

Cheryl Pankhurst: 

Alan Mueller: I wonder right and so emotional intelligence like you said and there is a thing where people who are drawn to math and sciences and All these different Frameworks. There's the work of John Holland who did this thing you made the Discover or the world of work the realistic investigative artistic social that kind of thing Myers-Briggs,…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: which I do a lot of work in For certain types of people go sort of certain directions and then those directions become a feedback loop. Kind of like you're talking about then more math science, and they surround themselves with those communities where if somebody's not introducing emotional intelligence in those kinds of things. They don't necessarily show up. Yeah. Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Exactly, and we need to especially if you're going to be in this profession. There's that human connection that even…

Alan Mueller: Yeah. yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: once you start learning about it, you start embracing it. It might sound very foreign. It might sound like I'm learning Japanese. I don't know what is this feeling s***, but

Alan Mueller: right

Cheryl Pankhurst: That's a growth of the teacher the parent the kid. all together

Alan Mueller: Yeah, it's huge and not pooping the emotional and this is part of misogyny, right? This is part of toxic masculinity of that emotions have something to do with weakness or emotions are less important than logic or whatever. And when I do Myers-Briggs workshops, I'm like y'all stop it. Let's just stop there are other interesting things. And this is a funny thing. I think I often break a group into extroverts and introverts or people with extrovert preferences and people with intro preferences and I asked the whole group. I'm like has anybody ever heard the phrase resting Mitch face?

Alan Mueller: And they're like what I said resting Mitch face with an m and they look at me. They're like, I don't think that's a thing. I'm you're correct. That's not a thing because introverted men don't get their affect police by anybody. I'm like,…

Cheryl Pankhurst: being

Alan Mueller: I'm 40. Some odd years old. No stranger has ever just told me to smile randomly honey. You need to smile more. I've never had that happen, right and so then I turn to the extrovers and I say Look at how many of them are women.

Alan Mueller: And bonus, look at how many of them are also women of color and think to yourself. Have you ascribed aloof resting? what face have you ascribed, standoffish or attitude or whatever stop ascribing that now stop projecting that on to people right?

Cheryl Pankhurst: Wow.

Alan Mueller: And so this is part of emotional intelligence. I mean as tried and true as the Myers Brig is and the Meijer Springs has its own complicated backstory which I unpack with people but there's something about that that is that intersection gender straight on straight on because similarly with extroverted women, especially with some of the other Myers breaks tights but extra women extroverted man, go getters

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: Okay, can we not pick this apart a little bit better? Right? So the emotional intelligence piece you can start with extra virgin introverts and start with if you're an extrovert,…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Mm-hmm

Alan Mueller: it's like being a bird and introversial like fish and fish think water is the norm and birds would drown in the water and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: .

Alan Mueller: and fish think they'll die which they will but for Birds air is the norm and so understanding that you've got a realize your own perspective is just your own perspective and go from there. Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah, 100% and for me emotion is energy. But it doesn't mean an introvert who's sitting quietly and not interacting and it does not have energy they have energy, but you have to look you have to shed you…

Alan Mueller: Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I know my daughter in high school, I always got the call. She never raises her hand. She never answers questions. She never

Cheryl Pankhurst: And this is who she is. and that's okay, and…

Alan Mueller: yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: that was always the meetings that just used to make me like Yeah.

Alan Mueller: And to me, I think that this is the thing. I think that extroverts are never really pressured by Society to Introverts are pressured to be more extroverted every time I've ever seen a class syllabus that says class participation this many points as an extrovert. I'm like, yay so free points Most people with introvert preferences that's anxiety producing right or they're doing math in their head. How many times do I have to speak? So when I do this,…

00:40:00

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: I tell people not to be who you are but also work towards moving to the middle when you've got good energy right in other words.

Alan Mueller: We have to demystify introverts. You need to be more extroverted but understand when it's time and introverts already notice when it's time to turn it on and turn it off and then extroverts when it's time to turn it on and turn it off by that I mean your mouth right for extroverts,…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Mueller: right and so understanding that builds empathy and builds grace and patience with each other and that's part of what we need. And so one real quick thing. I'll tell you I had a student in a leadership group name name Cecilia and after three weeks in the program. We met once a week for two hours. All the other facilitators came to my office. They were very concerned. They're we think Cecilia is really disengaged. I'm like, okay. I've noticed she's kind of quiet and then I looked at the other three facilitators like Check the mirror. Yep. I'm still an expert. Okay, wait a second. What are we doing? Then I asked what I said. Has anybody just stopped her and asked her. If she likes the program. So I said I'll be in the cafeteria later on flag her down. So I since Cecilia tell me how you like the leadership program.

Alan Mueller: my God, it's the best part of my week and I've made so many friends and I'm learning so much we had projected on to Cecilia that she was disengaged because her engagement wasn't loud like our engagement. That's it. Right and We need to check that and it's fair to say to Cecilia. Hey, you're extrovert your expert classmates have already let me know through their non-verbals and their verbals and what they have already queued me include me in right? Are you engaged in this it's fair to ask, but don't project in a suit, right?

Cheryl Pankhurst: yeah, and are you we Inters can decide for themselves. Where's the growth for me?

Alan Mueller: Yes.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Where's the growth for me? And our do you desire that growth? If that gives you energy watching something you think I'm really like to be doing that…

Alan Mueller: right

Cheryl Pankhurst: because that feels good.

Alan Mueller: Yeah. Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Let's Foster that but if not, the whole thing about even this podcast is like we just want our kids we want everyone just to be their own authentic selves. And what does that mean?

Alan Mueller: Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: That means like you said coaching. I got your back. But here you go. You take the lead. you're the team player you're the quarterback and…

Alan Mueller: Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: and you need to make the play and then I'm there to catch you, and

Alan Mueller: I love that the quarterback thing. I mean, Yeah because that they are in charge of their own life, they are the driver of the ship of their life and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: and if we try to drive for them, we're gonna have boats crashing all over the place right or it's sort of like, you don't see coaches in football running out onto the field, right? You don't see that happening,…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: they talk to their quarterback. But once the ball is high once the ball is snapped that quarterback is the field commander so to speak they're making those things happen at

Cheryl Pankhurst: And everybody on the field says I got faith in you. And if you miss the throw,…

Alan Mueller: Yep. Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: that's okay. Let's come back and talk about it, but I got faith in you and…

Alan Mueller: Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: that's so big for parents to hear. You have to let them know.

Alan Mueller: It is.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Even if you don't even…

Alan Mueller: Yeah. fake it…

Cheryl Pankhurst: if you don't have faith in them too bad. you make it…

Alan Mueller: till you make it. Yep. Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: because they will prove to you.

Alan Mueller: Yeah, yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Left right and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Center they got it.

Alan Mueller: I had a boss and…

Alan Mueller: he was a great guy, but his daughter was in grad school. And I was in his office when he got a call from her again. She was a graduate student getting a master's degree so inner twenties and she was sick and she went to some little clinic and her dad was sort of lecturing her on the phone and I just overheard this lecturing her on the phone about you hadn't gone to that clinic. I wish you had gone to your actual doctor and this that I'm like

Alan Mueller: This is a grown woman that you're speaking to and not just that but she's sick and you're sort of making commentary on how she sought help I'm like that is as helicopter as I've heard right and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: My God.

Alan Mueller: it's funny because that I ended up high years later. I ended up hiring that woman in one of my offices and she was a freaking rock star. She was amazing.

Cheryl Pankhurst: It was amazing.

Alan Mueller: And also was an introvert who grew up with two extra parents and two extroverted older brothers and forever thought she was an extra night girl, you just didn't want to get lost. you didn't want the Home Alone movie to happen to you, right? If you don't…

00:45:00

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Mueller: if you don't speak up you're gonna get lost in the shuffle, but To get out that she was an amazing introvert and total rock star but it's again I go back to this the crazy switch is real and so acknowledging when I first had children. And then I would be at orientation at a University at Sea parents dropping off their kid. I had a different level of empathy for them. And I had a different level of understanding and I do understand where the helicopter Instinct comes from. I have to honor that and acknowledge that it's real for me. and I have to

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: Put that in a corner. I have to put it in its context. I have to it aspire to parent better than through Instinct if that makes sense and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: and that switch have to turn it off. Sometimes I have to be like, my oldest son. We're from North Carolina a medium sized community and he's in college in Manhattan. And you know that there are 11 million people in Manhattan and North Carolina the state where I live has 11 million people for the whole state, so in North Carolina's probably about a third in size of Quebec, right? I mean, it's a big state with 10 million people and yet New York City has it, and my kid is up there. Right? One of the best developmental things. I love is sometimes they'll call me up Dad. I took such train as such as training're this show on Broadway or going over to Brooklyn for the day or this side of the other. And then the next call I'll get we'll say Dad. How do you know when toast is ready?

Cheryl Pankhurst: I love it.

Alan Mueller: And I'm like, this is developmental psychology 101 he has the confidence to navigate the public transit system in New York City, which I barely do after three visits. I'm starting to get there. and yet he's a little unsure about…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: how when toast is that it's maximum Readiness and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: But notice he can call you and…

Alan Mueller: He can call me.

Cheryl Pankhurst: ask you.

Alan Mueller: And to him I say when it's the right color brown for your taste buds, right what it's and you mentioned that your that sort of callback my kids the so many times over if they don't know how to do that. I'm like mean yet. I don't know…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yes. Love it.

Alan Mueller: how to do this you mean yet? And so now my oldest who's 19 uses the yet on my 15 year old except he's a little bit misusing it because my 15 year old tries new foods occasionally and my older ones always right? You should try sushi, you should try this and he and then my younger son's like I don't like that and my oldest son you meet those you mean you don't like it yet and I'm like, okay, so you're a little bit misusing this it's about what you're able to do you're not what you like, but I'm glad that it has sort of and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yes. That's funny.

Alan Mueller: I hear my 19 year old young man's son. Saying yet to himself. In our conversations and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: I am blown away that he's studying musical theater and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: golden magnets

Alan Mueller: musical theater is a world where you are gonna face lots of rejection. When he was applying to universities. I think academically he got into 30, but then through the audition process only five of those and so think about the ratio there that means that the other 25 So got a rejection letter and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: not just that but a rejection letter of something that might have been personal to you a monologue or a song you saying or…

Cheryl Pankhurst: You good point?

Alan Mueller: some audition material. And to be able to navigate that with resilience. my gosh sets you up for all of the things like life's gonna keep throwing those things at you.

Cheryl Pankhurst: yeah redirection redirection

Alan Mueller: They're gonna be jobs. they're gonna be things that you're pursuing that you don't pan out. And yeah, so I'm exceptionally proud of the young adult he's become and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: I love that.

Alan Mueller: it is still becoming yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: That's awesome. I think I said my kid once not that long ago. It's like he just got engaged and he's happy and I'm divorced and went through all that and So I was you're happy we didn't mess you up too much and they both kind of went. Really? Okay, I'm checking myself right now.

Cheryl Pankhurst: But I'm glad that they can say those things.

Alan Mueller: Yeah, yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I'm glad that and I feel empowered when they call me out on things. I shouldn't say or things. I'm getting wrong about race or Community or whatever. It is. that's what you want. You want someone who's gonna question the adults question the authorities and…

Alan Mueller: yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I love that and I have to respect the time of this podcast. I feel like we could have three more I want to talk about that book more. We want to break down that book. I want to do emotional intelligence, but I just want to say to parents out there if you are feeling Any kind of resistance to this conversation? didn't deep Step back and figure out where you might need to do some work. because That's where it starts and there's no blame. There's never judgment. We do what we can with what we have.

00:50:00

Cheryl Pankhurst: But the resistance if you're feeling like my God, what a bunch of b** conversation. Maybe you should step back and think Let's reconsider.

Alan Mueller: Yeah, when I first started reading the book I did I was not on board. I'm like this this seems like one of those academically type things that works in some ways, but this is real life my friends I have crying baby here. And thankfully I had a partner who she was all in on it and we went all in and it was a fantastic tool and it's not the only tool…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yep.

Alan Mueller: but it's a great cool just for resituating how you think about your role as a parent. are you the fixer of all things or are you a coach empowering someone to learn to fix their own things? because it's a dynamic shift there. Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: So I'm gonna put the link to that book and everything else. Where can we find you Alan?

Alan Mueller: You can find me at adaptive Challenge consulting.com and real quick over on LinkedIn. I'm actually going to do a free webinar. gosh end of this month sometime on emotional intelligence. So if you like this conversation and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: fantastic

Alan Mueller: you want to get in the free webinar, it's on LinkedIn and if you just search adaptive challenge Consulting on LinkedIn, you can find out more about it there too. But we're gonna have a conversation about personality type and emotional intelligence and cultural humility in those kinds of things.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Amazing and we need to sequel because I think we need to break down the book. Awesome. Thank…

Alan Mueller: a hundred percent anytime

Cheryl Pankhurst: I'm so grateful for you. I knew the energy would be great. I knew you would just blow my mind, and you totally did and I just love it. Thank you so much Dr. Alan Mueller. Thank you for listening team lines redefined. Thanks for stopping We're so grateful for your time. Bye for now. it was great.

Alan Mueller: Thanks so much. Thumbs up worked out.

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Diverse Expertise: Natalia Blagoeva boasts an impressive educational background with an MBA and MSc, and she is a certified expert in leadership, learning, and development, as well as a systemic coach.

Global Experience: With a career spanning five countries, Natalia has 20 years of experience as an international C-level executive and a decade as a management consultant and life coach.

The Human Advantage: Natalia's current focus is helping individuals thrive in an AI-dominated era by developing competences where humans outperform machines, a concept she refers to as the "Human Advantage."

Systemic Approaches: She employs Family and Systemic Constellations and other systemic methods to enhance intuitive understanding, consciousness, love, joy, and beauty, crucial for human development.

Deep Understanding of Human Elements: Natalia explores the essence of human and moral agency, the sources of inspiration and wisdom, and how to harness them effectively.

Embracing Life's Mysteries: Her approach includes opening to the mystery and magic of life and provoking positive change through deeper understanding and connection.

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