Church leadership challenges seem to multiply daily in today's uncertain ministry landscape. Declining attendance, budget shortfalls, aging facilities, and disengaged members can create an endless stream of problems that feel urgent to fix. But what if all the energy spent on fixing is actually getting in the way of what God wants to do? In this special Q&A episode, Pivot Podcast hosts Terri Elton, Dwight Zscheile, and Alicia Granholm address some pressing church leadership challenges facing pastors and ministry leaders today, offering a radically different approach rooted in biblical wisdom.

Rather than providing quick fixes or new programs, the hosts explore how to shift from a fixing mindset to one of listening and discernment. They discuss why encounters with the living God matter more than perfect programming, how to distinguish between institutional decline and the necessary dying that leads to resurrection, and practical ways to move toward collaborative ministry models. Whether you're wrestling with questions about preaching authority, lay leadership development, or simply feeling overwhelmed by church leadership challenges, this conversation offers hope and wisdom for navigating faithful ministry in changing times.

Many congregations today find themselves wrestling with inherited buildings that no longer fit their present reality—spaces that are underutilized, expensive to maintain, and disconnected from their neighbors. But what if reimagining church spaces could transform these perceived burdens into powerful assets for community flourishing? Tim Anderson and Tabitha Montgomery, co-executive directors of Flourish Placemaking Collective, have spent years helping churches discover exactly that possibility.

In this conversation with host Dwight Zscheile, Tim and Tabitha share their journey from community organizers searching for programming space to consultants helping churches practice what they call "placemaking"—centering the broader community rather than just congregational needs when thinking about church facilities. They discuss the practical steps churches can take when reimagining church spaces, from honest self-assessment to developing a "theology of space," and share inspiring examples like their own Center for Belonging, where a unused church basement became home to seven thriving nonprofit partners. Whether your congregation has 15 members or 150, this episode offers hope and practical wisdom for stewarding church property in ways that serve both faithful mission and neighborhood flourishing.

How do you maintain Christian identity in a culture where Christianity is "merely one option among many"? Church historian Dr. Stephen Presley argues that today's believers face challenges remarkably similar to those of the early church—and can learn much from how ancient Christians navigated their complex cultural moment. Rather than withdrawing from society or seeking political dominance, early believers practiced what Stephen calls "cultural sanctification"—being fully present in pagan spaces while maintaining distinctly Christian identity through quiet evangelism, deep formation, and faithful citizenship.

In this conversation, Stephen shares how early Christians like Polycarp could respect civil authority while refusing to compromise their faith, why conversion involved both catechesis and liturgical formation, and what quiet evangelism looked like in practice. He offers practical guidance for local church leaders who want to engage their communities faithfully without retreating from the world or compromising their Christian identity. Stephen is Associate Professor of Church History at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and author of "Cultural Sanctification: Engaging the World Like the Early Church."

Religious decision making can feel overwhelming when you're caught between equally important values or facing an uncertain future. In this episode, Dr. Angela Williams-Gorrell shares her practical framework for faithful discernment that emerged from her own difficult choices, including leaving a tenured academic position and navigating divorce. As both a practical theologian and someone who has walked through complex decisions, Angela offers a process that honors both human wisdom and divine guidance, moving beyond quick fixes to help listeners engage in meaningful religious decision making.

Angela's approach to religious decision making includes five key phases: recognizing the "stirring" that signals change, actively surrendering to God's guidance, working constructively with emotions, sifting through competing values and convictions, and finding "sated joy" in faithful choices. Throughout the conversation, she emphasizes that emotions are "incredibly helpful teachers" in the discernment process and challenges the false binary between rational and emotional decision-making. Whether you're a pastor facing ministry challenges, a leader navigating organizational change, or someone at a personal crossroads, this episode provides both theological depth and practical tools for making decisions that align with your faith and values.

What if the solution to declining church participation isn't better programs, but joining neighbors where they already are? Pastor Shannon Kiser, Senior Director of Fresh Expressions North America, shares how her congregation at Riverside Presbyterian transformed from hosting 2,000 kids once a year at their "Slop Fest" mud Olympics to creating ongoing relationships through fresh expressions of church. Their bold move - selling donated land and opening a seven-day-a-week coffee shop with indoor playground - turned their half of an office building into the community's favorite gathering place for families.

Shannon reveals the "who before what" principle driving fresh expressions across denominations, from dinner churches to workplace ministries. She offers practical first steps any inherited church can take to connect authentically with neighbors, including how to see your community with "the eyes of Jesus" and why one church's simple question to their local high school - "Who's the most underserved group here?" - changed everything. Perfect for church leaders feeling stuck between maintaining existing programs and wondering what God might be calling them toward in an era of rapid cultural change.

Many church leaders find themselves exhausted by traditional programming that no longer connects with their changing neighborhoods. In this episode, discover how fresh expressions can move you beyond fixing declining programs to creating vibrant new forms of faith community. Host Dwight Zscheile speaks with Shannon Kiser, Senior Director of Fresh Expressions North America, about her transformation from VBS burnout to pioneering fresh expressions that bring diverse families together through shared activities like soccer and art.

Shannon shares the "loving first journey" - a listening-first approach to developing fresh expressions that begins with discerning where God is already at work in your community rather than planning in committee rooms. Learn how to identify and release pioneers, supporters, and permission givers for fresh expressions in your congregation, and discover why fresh expressions actually energize inherited churches rather than competing with them. Whether you're struggling with volunteer recruitment, seeking to connect with your neighborhood's diversity, or wondering how to move from membership-focused to discipleship-centered ministry, this conversation offers practical insights into fresh expressions that create space for authentic community engagement and spiritual formation.

In this second part of our conversation with sociologist Dr. Christian Smith, we explore his groundbreaking research on why traditional religion has lost its cultural relevance for post-Boomer generations. Dr. Smith unpacks what he calls the "Millennial Zeitgeist" - a complex cultural worldview shaped by digital technology, individualism, and anti-institutional sentiment that has fundamentally changed how younger Americans approach faith, truth, and spiritual meaning.

Rather than offering quick fixes for declining church attendance, Dr. Smith challenges religious leaders to understand the deeper cultural forces at play and engage in profound soul-searching about authentic Christian identity. He reveals how the re-enchantment movement is drawing people to mysticism and alternative spiritualities - resources that churches once provided but abandoned in pursuit of secular respectability. This conversation offers essential insights for church leaders wrestling with whether religion has become obsolete and how faith communities can respond faithfully to massive cultural transformation.

"Why Religion Went Obsolete: The Demise of Traditional Faith in America" by Dr. Christian Smith

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*Rebroadcast on Oct. 30, 2025 - Top episode*

If you're watching church attendance declining at your congregation and wondering what you're doing wrong, this conversation will transform how you understand the challenges facing American religion. Dr. Christian Smith, sociologist at the University of Notre Dame and author of "Why Religion Went Obsolete," reveals that the struggles you're experiencing aren't primarily about your leadership, programs, or preaching. Instead, we're dealing with "perfect storm" conditions—massive cultural, technological, and social forces that have been building for decades, creating what Smith calls a "cultural mismatch" between traditional religion and today's zeitgeist.

Smith's research identifies specific factors since 1991 that have reshaped the religious landscape, from the deinstitutionalization of the American family to the rise of anti-institutional sentiment and popular postmodernism. Rather than trying to fix church attendance declining through traditional methods, church leaders need to understand these macro-level forces and redirect their energy toward discerning where God is already at work. This liberating perspective helps leaders move beyond self-blame to focus on faithful response to genuinely unprecedented cultural conditions. Join hosts Dwight Zscheile and Terri Elton as they explore why traditional religion has become "obsolete" in American culture and what this means for the future of faith communities.

"Why Religion Went Obsolete: The Demise of Traditional Faith in America" by Dr. Christian Smith

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The New Evangelism Message That's Changing Everything.

What if reframing evangelism isn't about getting more people in church, but about learning to meet Jesus in the midst of sorrow? In part two of our conversation with Luther Seminary professor Andy Root we explore a radically different approach to sharing faith that moves beyond happiness-hunting strategies to embrace God's presence in brokenness.

Andy Root, author of "Evangelism in an Age of Despair," challenges churches to stop chasing evangelism success like gamblers at a table and instead learn what it means to journey with people into their deepest sorrows.

Drawing insights from Blaise Pascal's spiritual journey, this conversation reveals how reframing evangelism around sorrow and loss can actually lead to more authentic faith sharing.

Andrew Root, PhD (Princeton Theological Seminary) is the Carrie Olson Baalson Professor of Youth and Family Ministry at Luther Seminary. He is most recently the author of Evangelism in an Age of Despair and the six volume Ministry in a Secular Age series.

• Book: Evangelism in an Age of Despair: Hope Beyond the Failed Promise of Happiness" by Andy Root
• Pivot Podcast episode: Reframing Evangelism: Following Jesus into Sorrow with Andy Root (Part 1)

Many church leaders feel caught between uncomfortable extremes when it comes to how to evangelize - either instrumental strategies that feel manipulative or avoiding evangelism altogether out of fear it will drive people away. In this episode, Luther Seminary professor Andy Root offers a third way through his new book "Evangelism in an Age of Despair." Andy shows how to evangelize through what he calls "a theology of consolation" - recognizing that the caring relationships churches naturally build actually constitute authentic evangelism when grounded in the conviction that Jesus Christ is present in our shared sorrows.

Rather than learning new programs or strategies, Andy helps church leaders recognize the evangelism they're already doing. When congregations sit with people going through cancer treatment, help neighbors clean out a deceased parent's home, or simply take walks with those who are grieving, they're practicing presence-based evangelism. This conversation will transform how you think about how to evangelize by moving from strategy-based approaches to authentic ministry that flows naturally from Christian care and consolation.

Andrew Root, PhD (Princeton Theological Seminary) is the Carrie Olson Baalson Professor of Youth and Family Ministry at Luther Seminary. He is most recently the author of Evangelism in an Age of Despair and the six volume Ministry in a Secular Age series.

• Book: Evangelism in an Age of Despair (Andy Root, 2025):
• Book: The Promise of Despair (Andy Root, 2010)
• Book: The Gospel of Wellness (Rina Raphael, 2022)
• Book: The Ethics of Authenticity (Charles Taylor, 2018)
• Book: Cosmopolis (Stephen Toulmin, 1992)