Disaster management hasn’t been a bright spot for Western governments lately. So, how can we do better? Juliette Kayyem, former assistant secretary of homeland security, says we need to “fail safer,” with more focus on mitigating the disasters that happen instead of believing we can stop them from happening at all. She joined Josh to talk about lessons of disasters, from Fukushima to COVID, as discussed in her new book, The Devil Never Sleeps.

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