Pure Dog Talk

Peacock Feet and Finding Breed Type in Toy Dogs

Dale Martenson, breeder of Touche Japanese Chin, joins host Laura Reeves for an enlightening discussion of breed type in toy dogs. He encourages judges, exhibitors and breeders to focus on the critical details of beauty and not get hung up in fault judging.

“I hear people talking about either how they judged a group of dogs or breeders when they're evaluating their puppies and all they’re talking about is the faults,” Martenson said, “and (all I can think is they’re looking at a) beautiful flock of Peacocks and all they see is a bunch of ugly feet and crooked toes running at them. They’re missing the point of this breed and all of the work that goes into the details that make these breeds so hard to raise and so intricate and so desirable.

“I think the biggest insult somebody can give you is that you were generic because there's nothing about the toy dogs that's generic. And we have a whole lot of very breed specific type that you have to get into and start pulling apart.

“If you're cute enough, somebody will bring you food … they do not need to get their own food.

“These toy breeds have very specific things in each of them that you can't get away from. If you don't have those, you don't have a show quality specimen. You have a dog that's irrelevant to the people who like the breed.

“We become a little bit like axe murderers when you miss our type because we're trying to get markings, we're trying to get size, we're trying to get breed specific things in tiny litters with a lot of mortality. In Japanese Chin, we don't have the good fortune of the Pointer where it says a good Pointer can’t be a bad color.

“The Japanese Chin, for example, their job was to be really pretty. Hang out with the geisha, you know, very quietly sit with their friends and say, ‘ohh, my gosh, she's gotten fat.’ You know, I mean, just being that little best friend and not really liking anybody else.”

 

When Sh*t Happens in Your Breeding Program

Host Laura Reeves is joined by Aimée Llewellyn-Zaidi, Project Director, IPFD Harmonization of Genetic Testing for Dogs, International Partnership for Dogs, for part two of a challenging and informative conversation about when sh*t happens in your breeding program.

“If you have a stud dog,” Llewellyn-Zaidi said, “and I'm gonna use stud dogs because that's what tends to be the bigger contributor to a genetic breeding plan. If you have a stud dog or you're using a stud dog or you've used a stud dog and there is a problem. Step number one is to not panic. Genuinely, that's the first kind of step, because you will know in yourself that you've made the best decisions in that moment with the information you had up until that point.

“You now have maybe new information. So then the second step is investigate and you gave some great examples. Is this something that is heritable? Is this something that isn't in the breed, but maybe actually is in the breed? And if you start asking, you start realizing that you're not the only one that has been observing this challenge.

“So just do a little bit of investigating, get a diagnosis for when there isn't a genetic test. Do a little asking around with friendly people to see if this is something that it is heritable or potentially heritable, and then if it's something that is kind of unique to your lines or if there's potentially a broader breed conversation.

“I keep wanting to throw traits because very understandably we focus on poor health, but actually many, many breeders want to be focused on the characteristics that are valuable and important.

“The more we're able to think about our individual breeding plans as part of a whole, the term collective action, I think the more successful we will be at meeting our goals and reducing the risks of inherited diseases.

“Whether you're in a healthy breed that has no breed specific health conditions but being a dog means you're going to have a health condition. Or whether you're in a breed that has maybe a different path that they need to take to get back to where people feel there's a better balance between health and the traits that they want, collective action is key.

“And that's the thing. It's like the collective action on your individual part is are you communicating with your puppy owners? Are you communicating with the bitch owners if you have the stud but don't keep the bitches. Who are your breeding friends that you've used your stud dog to. Are you keeping those accurate records? Are you including a friendly vet into your system that can kind of help you with identifying or investigating any of these health issues?

“In summation, we're not gonna panic, we're gonna investigate, we're gonna maybe pause breeding and we're going to think about the steps that we need to take to have those collective action solutions, that's going to include you and your breeding plans and your breeding partners.”

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Resources for Veterinary Medicine Practices and Staff

Dr. Marty Greer joins host Laura Reeves with advice for veterinary medicine practices, vets, techs, staff and clients alike.

“The veterinary field is full of really, genuinely great people in a way that we don't see in a lot of other career choices. It's an amazing field to be in,” Greer said. There are, though, plenty of challenges for staff and clients both.

“Most veterinarians come out of veterinary school without a lot of experience, they understand how to do the medicine, they don't know how to do the business part. I remember being in vet school and they tried to teach us to us and we're like, ‘No, no, we want to just be a doctor.’ Well, that was kind of short -sighted. And a year out of vet school, I started a practice. I'm like, ‘I should have been listening.’

Greer offer her top recommendations for vet practices to succeed.

“Number one, join IVPA, join a VMG group, join some other buying group so that you have the opportunity to improve your cost of goods, to understand the management techniques and principles, that's number one.

“Number two get a great accountant and a great attorney that understand the veterinary practices. There are many veterinary specific accountants and veterinary specific attorneys. Use one of them.

“You have to spend time working on your practice, not just in your practice.

“Hire yourself a practice manager. It's really hard. It's really hard when you don't have enough money. You can't figure it out. Hire somebody to help you with your HR and with your bookkeeping and with all the parts of practice that you have to have because their practice manager can be a God Send.

“A lot of people are afraid to start a practice because they think that because they have student loans that they can't afford to start a practice. And in reality, owning a practice is proven to be the fastest way to pay your school loans back because the profitability is better as an owner than it is as an employee.

“We have a sign on the wall, ‘WWJHD.’ What would James Harriet do? I love that because I want my staff and my doctors to think about what fits the needs of their client and their client's pet.”

 

Dog Behavior Expert on Nature vs Nurture. BONUS Purple Leash

[caption id="attachment_13263" align="alignleft" width="363"] Dr. Annie Valuska, Principal Scientist – Behavior, Global Pet Behavior for Nestle Purina.[/caption]

Dr. Annie Valuska, Principal Scientist – Behavior, Global Pet Behavior for Nestle Purina joins host Laura Reeves for a deep dive on dog behavior.

“I think even for any animal, (nature vs nurture) is a challenging question,” Valuska said, “but I think for dogs in particular, that might be the muddiest waters out there. Dogs have been domesticated for longer than any other species on earth. They have this long history of kind of co -evolving with us. And as a result, in my opinion, it is now in dogs' nature to be nurtured by us.

“And so that just really, really blurs the lines. Everybody that loves dogs, you don’t have to be a scientist to know that there's something really special in that bond. But the science behind it is really cool. And it all started with the domestication.

“So dogs diverged from a common wolf -like ancestor about 15 ,000 years ago,based on the latest science and there's a lot of evidence that they kind of domesticated themselves. That the friendliest, most outgoing wolves, we'll call them, were willing to approach people for the benefits that we could provide, mostly food.

“And then those wolves produced more offspring. They survived longer. They had higher fitness and evolutionary terms. They reduced offspring that were also friendly, tame, curious, approachable. And then over generations, we've ended up with the dogs that we know and love today.

“And while there are several differences between dogs and wolves, most of the big ones are really defined by the fact that dogs have this relationship with humans. They have, for example, changes in their digestive system that allow them to digest carbohydrates much more effectively than wolves can. They have changes in the muscles around their eyes that allow them to make that puppy-dog-eye expression and show the whites of their eyes that we respond really strongly to.

“So they kind of hijacked that in us. And one of the coolest changes in my opinion is that dogs are so much better just naturally at paying attention to and responding to what we're doing. So things like where we're looking, they will respond to our pointing gestures by going to where we're pointing. They do this pretty much innately. Puppies are kind of made to respond to people.

“Wolves just can't do that, even when they are raised and socialized exactly like the dogs are in these studies. And so that certainly speaks to something about the DNA. The genetic changes, what makes a dog a dog, makes them attuned to us and wanting to build that relationship and that bond with us.

“I think of the genetic component as starting the dog somewhere on a spectrum. It's like dropping that dog on the spectrum from extremely fearful to extremely friendly, their genes are giving them a starting place. I think that the socialization and training that the dog gets throughout their lifetime can absolutely move them on that spectrum.

“Now, a dog that has a genetic background that is resulting in them being on the very far fearful end is probably never ever going to be socialized well enough to get to the very far friendly end. There is a limit to how far on that spectrum they can move from where their genes drop them. But I think there is generally a lot more wiggle room there than many people give credit for.

“And one of the interesting studies on this that came out just a couple years ago in 2022 was looking at breed specific genetic backgrounds. And what that study found was that while the genetics of specific breeds were pretty tightly correlated with physical traits, there was really not much behaviorally, which surprised a lot of people because there are many beliefs that, ‘Oh, Golden Retrievers have this temperament and some of these more ancient breeds have this temperament,’ but there was not much evidence for that in that study. There, in fact, was almost as much variability within a breed as there was between breeds.”

Listen in for the full, in depth, fascinating conversation and join us in promoting Domestic Violence Awareness month with a bonus discussion of the Purple Leash Project.

Dr. Valuska can be followed at @annieknowsanimals on TikTok and Instagram.

 

 

How Breeds Have Managed Population-wide Health Crises

Host Laura Reeves is joined again by Aimée Llewellyn-Zaidi, Project Director, IPFD Harmonization of Genetic Testing for Dogs at the International Partnership for Dogs. The wide-ranging conversation covers how different breeds have managed population-wide health crises.

Llewellyn-Zaidi discusses specific issues with Irish Setters in the UK and Pointers in the US, as well as Cavalier King Charles Spaniels and French Bulldogs in Finland. She also uses knowledge of the inbreeding in dairy cattle to address some of our questions about the potential of "inbreeding depression" in dogs.

"Education is us making the best decisions we have with the information we have in that moment," Llewellyn-Zaidi said. "And then where those unintended consequences can go wrong. Bear with me, I'm going to pivot from dogs for just a minute and talk about the dairy cattle industry because I think that is a great warning to the dog breeding world about what we want to keep in mind when we're making our breeding decisions. (This gives insight into) how we might want to work collectively to solve some of these problems that we're all facing and also collectively how we might want to achieve the goals and the positive traits and positive characteristics we have in our breeding stock.

"The dairy industry historically had a philosophy of not particularly using a wide number of stud bulls. Their goals when they're breeding dairy cows are not our goals when we're breeding dogs. They're wanting to produce animals that have a very specific trait characteristic, but also are not required for longevity. Generally speaking longevity is kind of a priority for dog breeding. So they had two challenges with that and that if you don't include longevity or if you are removing those cows at a certain age before their natural lifespan would end then you don't really know what may be coming into middle or older age.

"There's a study in 2015, so 10 years ago, where they looked at where the genesis of modern American dairy cattle came from. They realized that all of the American dairy cattle at the moment descended from two bulls from the 1880s. Those were the bulls' lineages that have survived various breeding strategies over the years.

"If you are a livestock nerd or if you're interested at all in dairy cattle, you probably have heard of Toy Story, who sired over half a million offspring and he's within living memory. What's interesting and, harkening back to our previous conversations again about genetic diversity, funnily enough, in dairy cattle, they started noticing that infertility issues were coming into dairy cows.

"What they didn't think about or they didn't really maybe appreciate how inbred those female cows were as well. Because essentially Toy Story was breeding over and over and over and over and over again with his daughters and granddaughters and nieces. So the inbreeding was compounding and they were already inbred to begin with."

Listen in to hear Llewellyn-Zaidi's conversation about how different breeds and clubs have solved health issues and genetic diversity questions in positive and constructive ways. And don't forget to tap in next week for part two.

Nancy Talbott on Dual Dogs and Breed Specific Judging

AKC judge Nancy Talbott joins host Laura Reeves for an in depth discussion on the philosophy of dual purpose dogs and breed specific judging.

"I didn't really embrace or understand the significant division between show and field until I started showing more and conformation," Talbott said. "And then it started to really strike me, and increasingly, and continuing to strike me at just how extreme, not just conformation and conformation breeders, but also field and field breeders had become. The word extreme should never be in the vocabulary about a Golden Retriever in any way, physically, mentally, energy level, any of that.

"As we know, if you specialize in a high level sport, there is a tendency to go to extremes. Modern day field trials, not hunting tests but modern day field trials are so extreme in what's required of the dog. I admire the trainers and handlers truly. I could never do it. But it almost creates this idea that you have to breed for what in the field world is called 'go.' That would be extreme drive.

"I have heard field breeders who say, 'I can do anything else as long as I have a lot of go. And so they're breeding for more 'go.' Trainability, yes, but more go.

"The conformation side, as we see when we're in the ring, when Goldens became a really impressive group dog, therefore it has become primarily a handler breed. There are still tremendous owner handlers, and I applaud every owner handler out there. It's a tough breed to show and compete with.

"And that has led us to extremes of movement, where you have dogs in a flying trot, not a moderate ground covering gait, the extremes of coat, the extremes of bone and weight, because that's what people think is necessary to compete in that venue.

"When hunt tests started, it gave a venue for those people who wanted a dog who met the standard physically and mentally, but still wanted to prove their dog's birdiness, ability, interest in water, all of those innate skills that we have to breed for. You can train in a lot of things, but you can't train in some of those innate talents."

Listen in to hear Nancy's thoughts on breed specific judging, specifically as regards movement.

Corporate Takeover of Veterinary Clinics

Dr. Marty Greer joins host Laura Reeves for a very current conversation about corporate takeover of veterinary clinics.

“The trend to purchase veterinary clinics has been going on for probably about 12 to 15 years,” Greer said. “It started with just a couple of consolidators. It's now up to about 80 and some of the consolidators have consolidated. So we now see some of these groups recapitalizing and then moving on and being sold to another consolidator.

“So it's been kind of interesting to watch and frankly pretty scary. Just before COVID, the prices of veterinary clinics were at an all -time high, and then it dropped during COVID.

“They tell you that they will give your staff better benefits, and they probably do. They tell you we will unload all that stuff off of you that you don't want to deal with. The HR, the purchasing, all the back-office stuff that you as a veterinarian didn't go to vet school for, didn't learn in vet school, don't want to learn, don't want to know, don't want to deal with.

“They'll say we're gonna lift all this off your shoulders, you can just practice medicine, it's gonna be awesome. And if you're a large producer in the practice, the owner or one of the bigger producers, they want you to stay for two years.

“It has different impacts in different practices. The practices that we've really watched the most closely personally are the practices that have done a lot of reproductive services in our community, either in our immediate area or across the country because these are colleagues of ours.

“And that to me has been really hard to watch because a lot of the practices have not continued to thrive after the sale of the practice.”

Marty and Laura continue with a conversation about how breeders can work with the larger community to help change the conversation about dog breeding that trickles down to the people who become veterinarians.

Back to Basics: What to Wear at the Dog Show

Veronica Wolfe from Best in Show Clothes joins host Laura Reeves to talk just basic what to wear at the dog show, how to be comfortable, how to live your own truth and still be respectful of the environment that we're in. They cover outfits for the fall weather's coming up and a little bit about good colors with your dogs and stand out versus blend in.

“So, when my junior was becoming a teen and bucking the suits, I reminded her that this is a sport like any sport and every sport has a uniform,” Wolfe said. “I mean, if you're going to be in the soccer team, you get assigned a uniform and there's no, ‘oh, well, it's not my color,’ too bad, you know, that's what you have to wear. But fortunately, in the dog show world, we have a little more flexibility.

[caption id="attachment_13179" align="alignright" width="526"] Tall, flat heeled boots, a skirt, vest and turtleneck make a classy fall outfit.[/caption]

“Looking professional is the key. Well, what does that mean in the dog show world? Classically, men will be in two -piece suits, or slacks, and maybe a tweed blazer for fall, right? And the women will either be in professional dresses or a two -piece suit, whether it's a pantsuit suit or skirt suit. That's the general uniform that you see out there.

“Alternatives to blazers because we were kind of talking about dressing to your truth right so not everybody wants to be in a blazer.

“I personally hate blazers. I've got broad shoulders, busty, and I'm tall. They're not my favorites.

“So a lot of things I like to find and more than ever you can find stretchy fabric like this one actually has some stretch to it just look for spandex in the list of fabrics. Cardigans look great. A navy blue cardigan with a floral skirt … you can find some really nice cardigans and you can find them in every color of the rainbow

“The other thing you need to consider is your movement when you choose what you're going to wear and you also need to consider what looks good with your color and your dog's color.”

Breeding Dogs Around Diseases that Don’t Have a “Test”

Host Laura Reeves is joined for part two of her impactful conversation with Aimée Llewellyn-Zaidi, Project Director, IPFD Harmonization of Genetic Testing for Dogs at International Partnership for Dogs.

Today’s conversation covers some of the biggest hot button diseases impacting all dogs – seizure disorders, cancer, bloat and other life-threatening issues.

Llewellyn-Zaidi offers insight, information and details about new tests coming online and the ways we can minimize risk while working with small gene pools.

“(S)ome cancers are just kind of part of dogs, just being a dog. Or sometimes they're part of being a type of a dog, like some types of dogs are more likely to be at risk than others, whether it's size -related or maybe they're a herding breed, and it's just at some point in ancient times, (when we) started dividing out into generalized proto-breeds, when we started having our wolfie looking ones and spitzy -looking ones, and we started having our molosser looking ones, and we started having our retrieving looking ones. Before they were such distinctive breeds, there would have already been selection causing inbreeding and increasing some genetic duplication to get those desirable traits.

“And you may bring some things along with that. So some of these cancers are not specific, necessarily, to your breed and they're just specific to that type of dog.

 

“With cancers there are two cancer tests that are available to all dog breeds or all dog types. There is something called a C -kit somatic mutation for mast cell tumors. All of this is on www.dogwellnet.com so you can check it out. And there's also the BRAF mutation, so invasive transitional cell carcinoma. That's for all dogs as well. And for my dear beloved Bernese people, there's histiocytic malignancy that's available as a genetic test as well.

 

“So for some of these specific cancers and specific epilepsies, there are genetic tests available that you can use to help you maybe make some decisions or at least to eliminate what might else be going on, right? So you know if you're not quite sure what kind of a cancer it is, the genetic test might help give you some information on that.

 

“All of this really comes down to how risky do you feel? We can rebuild any breed from scratch if we needed to. It would just take a lot of time and a lot of effort and a lot of consideration. So in some ways, being very radical, and I'm setting health and welfare aside for just a second, being very radical, it's kind of up to a breed to make a choice. Do you want to keep breeding to your breed standard until you reach a point of too much poor health and inbreeding depression and then you start again?

“Or do you want to try to conserve and maintain kind of where you are now? Or do you want to try to improve or expand your genetic diversity from where you are now?

“And all three of those kind of philosophies are acceptable, assuming you're keeping at least welfare in mind. And all three of those philosophies probably will fit all the different kinds of breeds in their unique situations.

“Followed very closely by conserving that breed type or those breed qualities that are important to you, right? That's the point. That's the point and the pleasure and the art side, right?

“So if you're keeping in the back of your mind those chess moves, whether it's ‘I'm gonna use this type for a couple of times because I really like that or I want to introduce that and then I'm gonna have a couple of litters where I go out and just kind of rebuild that diversity and then maybe go back to that type I happened to like,’ that's how you kind of weave through the genetic variation that you have within your breed population.

 

“You probably can't do that forever unless you're very, very lucky as a breed, like you can't do that forever, but you can probably do that for quite a long time.”

 

Bridging the Gap Between Art and Science of Dog Breeding

Host Laura Reeves is joined by Aimee Llewellyn Zaidi, project manager for the International Partnership for Dogs. Llewellyn Zaidi’s work is bridging the gap between art and science in dog breeding. They talk about inbreeding and genetic diversity, how those things go together and what you can do when there isn't a test for a health problem.

[caption id="attachment_13097" align="alignleft" width="300"] Aimée Llewellyn-Zaidi and her Corgi.[/caption]

“International Partnership for Dogs offers free resources for dog breeders and for vets to kind of give you some unbiased transparent guidance,” Llewellyn Zaidi said.

“I am a third generation Pembroke Welsh Corgi owner. My grandparents had beef cattle in Oregon in the 1960s. They started their farm up in Silverton, Oregon. And my grandmother was a little bit of an Anglophile. And so she got two corgis back in the 70s in Oregon, which there weren't too many corgis out here then.

“And she had these great aspirations of having them being working corgis and they worked really hard at cuddling. And they maybe, you know, barked at things, but yeah, they started as working dogs but were 100 % professional lap dogs, you know, as corgis really know how to do it. And I just never lost my love for the Pems.

“I started working as a health manager for the Kennel Club in the UK (in 2012). And by the end of my time in the UK, I had developed a team and I was the head of health and research there, really focused on bringing evidence-based education resources to breeders and to the veterinary community and to breed advisors with lots and lots of tools and resources available.

“I really wanted to take the science and kind of translate it into something practical. There wasn't a lot of in between at the time between researchers and the people who actually have to make the breeding decisions and that disconnect really bugged me. I think it really bugged me that there wasn't such an easy way for communication between really the art and the science of dog breeding, trying to bring those things a little bit closer together.

“I want to take some of the mystery out of some of science or some of the resources that are available. I try to be really honest and transparent about what we know, what we don't know, what's still kind of out there, what things might be not the most ideal resources.

“I feel like that honesty is the best way for people to be informed and to make ultimately the breeding decisions. You guys have the hard job. You have the job of deciding, right? So, I just want to give you information that can help you hopefully make those really informed decisions.”