Resilience Talk Network

"I Don't Need a Coach". In this episode, Cevin discusses the differences between a "Coach" and a "Mentor".

In this episode of Stories of Hope in Hard Times podcast, Tamara K. Anderson interviews Alan Smith. Alan shares how he was able to take health struggles and the death of a child, and find happiness even after extreme pain.How Alan Found Perspective and Peace After His Son’s Death.Alan’s BioAlan was born and raised in Utah. He is something of a Renaissance man with his love to read, write, paint, sing, and ballroom dance. He’s a realtor by profession, and has been married for 25 years to Susan who rolls her eyes at his dad jokes, but he’s sure she’s laughing on the inside. As a writer, Alan goes by the name A.D. Sherman.Alan’s Writing CareerAlan goes by A.D. Sherman because he says he’s still a little shy about his writing, and the name Alan Smith isn’t that exciting. Alan decided to write under a pseudonym. A high school nickname inspired the last name of Sherman, the A is from his name Alan, and the D stands for death, dismemberment, dragons, Dracula and all of those fun, creepy things.Alan is currently working on a book. It is called the Undertaker’s Apprentice and it’s about a 16 year old boy who on his first awkward day as an undertaker’s apprentice, accidentally becomes a sorcerer.Alan’s Childhood and PastAlan is the oldest of four kids, but was very small for his age and got bullied in the neighborhood. He had one close friend but didn’t have lots of other friends. Alan’s mom also had some complications with pregnancy and postpartum, which left Alan to do a lot of the work around the house like laundry and cooking. Alan didn’t really have a traditional childhood because he was busy taking care of things for his siblings. He tried to have a sense of humor and fun, but overall his childhood was busy and full of work.A Stroke At Age 18At the age of 18, Alan had something shocking happen to him. He had a significant stroke, which is highly unusual in someone so young. He didn’t expect it at all. Alan and his family didn’t realize what had happened right away. He was working in a book warehouse, and suddenly began feeling really sick. He felt dizzy and nauseous and he couldn’t stand or see. Alan worked at the warehouse with his mom, and she was busy working. So, Alan went up to the bathroom and spent a half hour throwing up and feeling miserable. He finally dragged himself to the break room couch where slept the rest of the day. Within a couple of days he felt enough better that he could go back to work, and he thought nothing else of it.A little while later Alan went in for a physical. They tested his peripheral vision by holding up fingers, and on one side Alan couldn’t see any fingers at all. This lead to a lot of tests, a misdiagnosis of a heart valve issue, and more tests.The Cause of the StrokesFourteen years later, Alan was having stroke symptoms. He decided to go in and see a doctor who told him he had an opening between the chambers of his heart. This opening allows blood clots to happen, so he was having little strokes. The doctor went in with a catheter to close the opening, which is a relatively successful surgery. It didn’t work for Alan though. He had another surgery 10 months later which fixed the problem.Alan says that spending so much of his life wondering why he felt tired and sick made him depressed and was extremely hard to deal with. But 14 years later when he finally understood that he’d been having strokes, it made a huge difference in his ability to start moving forward with his life.Stroke SymptomsAlan says that when he was young MRI’s were relatively new and unreliable. So it was hard for him to get correctly diagnosed. He says that you can watch to find stroke symptoms like drooping in a face, tingling in a face or fingertips, and other things that can help indicate a stroke.A Shocking Infant DeathAlan met his wife after his first stroke at 18, and has been married for 25 years. But marriage and parenthood didn’t start out smoothly for Alan and his wife Susan. On May 6th, 1996, Alan’s first son Bryse was born. But just a few months later on August 14th, Bryse died. He was at his daycare center, and passed away from SIDS. Alan says that being at work and having the police show up to tell him about his son was absolutely awful.Alan says he and Susan grieved their son’s death very differently. He felt it was his job was to be the protector and to take care of his family. He grieved by trying to control things, trying to make sure everything was done right. Alan felt he had screwed up and hadn’t done his job. Susan felt an emptiness and guilt that she had been at work.Alan says that they dealt with lots of “what-if” situations. What if they had gone to pick up their son early? What if they hadn’t taken him to daycare that day? There are a hundred things they thought about and wondered if they should have done differently.They also thought about all the things they wouldn’t get to see. They wouldn’t see their son go to school or get married. Alan said they had to start to recreate the way their life would look now that their son was gone.Support GroupAlan says they had to spend time grieving the life they wouldn’t have. Alan says to cope they threw themselves into helping others. A woman named Jolene came to their house the first day after their son had passed. The police officers had given Alan a hotline number to call, and Jolene showed up out of the blue. She was a peer counselor, someone who had been through this same thing. Jolene held their hands and helped them walk through their grief. She suggested things that they maybe wouldn’t think of to do before the funeral. For example, they had a plaster cast of their son’s hand and foot made for their home.Alan and Susan would call Jolene when they needed to talk or cry, and she was there. They went to support group meetings to talk with other families who had gone through a similar situation. After a little while, the Utah SIDS Alliance asked if Alan and Susan would be willing to help other people. Susan and Alan became the co-presidents of that organization and were able to run the support meetings, work with the State Health Department, and create the Back To Sleep campaign to remind parents to put babies on their backs to sleep.Alan is grateful for the work they were able to do, and all the Utah families they were able to help. Alan found a closeness to this community of people and the support they gave each other was indescribable.Conversations With GodAlan’s conversations with God at that time involved a lot of questions, mostly asking “why?” Alan says he eventually learned that he needed to be in a place where he could benefit others. He says he wasn’t happy to hear that. But he learned what he was supposed to do and how he was supposed to be there for others.  “I need to be there to help take care of them. I’ve been there, done that and don’t want to ever do it again,” he says.More ChildrenAlan’s next daughter Haylee was born a few years later. He says that when Susan was pregnant, she was a train wreck and was so worried about everything. Alan felt calm, and at peace that it would be fine. Once Haylee was born, Alan and Susan switched places. Susan became calm and comfortable, and Alan became a train wreck.He would go into the kid’s rooms every night to put his hand on them to make sure they were breathing. He jokes that it was great as teenagers because they were too afraid to sneak out, knowing their Dad would come check on them in the night.Alan says that his feelings of a protector came back out when his children were born, and he wanted to control everything he could. He says now that his children are grown he feels less pressure, and can know that he’s done his best and it’s up to them now.Lessons Alan Has Learned1. Empathy and Serving OthersWhen Alan and his wife were able to serve and help others who had children die unexpectedly, they felt unity, support and healing. Serving others also brought them happiness and joy.2. Learn Lessons Amid HardshipAsk God, “What do I need to learn this situation?” Often learning the lesson will benefit your life moving forward.3. Good Things Can Come from TragedyFigure out how to see the positives in any situation. You can’t let the crazy stuff that happens in your life beat you down. For example, Alan says some of his greatest friendships and best points of his life are connected to Bryse dying.4. Awfulizing: Life isn’t as bad as we thinkAlan says that a psychologist worked with him and taught him about awfulizing. For example, you get a hang nail and then you feel like you’re going to have to get your thumb amputated. You’ve created a horrible thing out of something small, and it’s a negative cycle. To break the cycle you have to put everything on a scale of 1 to 10. 10 is the worst, most horrible thing ever. For Alan, his son dying was the 10. Nothing else in his life can compare to how awful that was.Alan says sometimes something will happen, like the kids put crayons in the dryer and shirts are ruined. We tend to grow that into an 8. But if you really look at it, it’s just a 2 or a 3. Comparing it to the worst thing ever helps you put it into perspective. You can have control over your reactions when you think about your life in this way.5. There is Power in ForgivenessAlan remembers one bully from his childhood taking particular care to make his life miserable. At least, that was Alan’s perception. Alan later was in a religious ceremony, and this person from his childhood was there. Alan decided in that moment to let go of his childhood hurt with this person. And 30 years later, he hasn’t harbored any ill-will toward him. He believes that Jesus Christ and God helped him let go of that hurt and anger.Thirteen years after Alan decided to forgive this person, he got a phone call saying they had died of a heart attack at a young age. Alan says he felt so blessed that he had let go of his anger and could go to the funeral without any upset feelings.Alan says often the people in our lives that have hurt us probably don’t know that they’ve done something so bad to us. The anger we feel is hurting us more than it’s hurting them. As long as we’re willing to give God our struggles, He can help us overcome the feelings and take them away.6. The Ability to Choose How to ReactAlan says sometimes he’s been put on a path he didn’t want to walk, but learned to figure out what positives he could take from each situation. He says he would never have wanted to be on a path that included having a child pass away. But everyone has things happen to them that they don’t want. And we don’t get to choose them. But we do choose how to deal with the consequences. “The only thing we get to choose really is how we react to any given situation,” Alan concludes.7. Embrace Your New NormalAlan has the chance to meet with families and groups and help them get over hardships. He talks about embracing a new normal (one of Tamara’s favorite things as well.)Alan says, “The day before my son died, I was a dad. The day after my son died, I was still a dad, but I didn’t have my son. Normal had changed for me, normal was never going to be the same as it was before. And so I have to learn how to adapt and how to work within the range of what normal is.”Alan likens it to going on a vacation to Italy that you’ve planned thoroughly and you’re so excited for. You get to the airport, and they tell you to go to sleep and they will wake you up when you arrive. Now imagine you go to sleep, and you wake up on the ground and they say “Welcome to Holland!” You’d probably think, “Wait a minute, I was planning to go to Italy.” But you’re in Holland and there are great things to do in Holland like windmills and wooden shoes. But it’s not Italy. Being in a different place can be wonderful and great, it’s just not what you were expecting. Finding the good in your new normal. (The original credit for the “Welcome to Holland” story goes to Emily Perl Kingsley).Advice on How to Support OthersAlan also talks about being on the other side of the table when someone you know is going through a new normal. Other people may not understand what you’re going through, because your new normal doesn’t impact their daily life. At the beginning of a loss people crowd around and try to support and help, but that slowly fades away as they get back to their life.How to Help a Grieving FriendPart of what you can do is create a place where you remember that somebody is in a new normal space and finding ways to still support them in that place. This doesn’t have to be crazy hard. It doesn’t have to be a lot of work, it can be sending them a text that you’re thinking about them. Just so that they know that somebody is aware of them. You can put flowers on their loved one’s grave.Alan says you can also remember significant dates (like the birth or death day or a loved one) and show that you’re there for your friend on those important dates. Being aware of the needs of others is an important key. All it takes is setting a recurring annual reminder on your phone and you can remember and comfort your friend on these critical anniversaries. Doing this means a lot.Sleepless In Seattle AdviceAlan has some thoughts about this popular movie. In the movie, Tom Hanks is being interviewed on the radio on Christmas Eve. The therapist on the radio asks Tom Hanks how he got through his wife dying. Tom Hanks says “I just remind myself to breathe and hopefully someday I won’t have to remind myself to breathe.” Alan says that this advice is key. You can live moment-to-moment. And pretty soon you’ll be able to take two breaths and be able to manage two breaths.Alan says it’s important to remember that nobody expects you to be perfect. You can be in a bad place, and that’s OK. It’s just one breath at a time. Inhale, exhale. That’s all it takes.How God HelpedAlan says God put amazing people in his life as part of this whole experience. They were earthly angels to Alan and Susan and their family. Creating lifelong connections has been such a gift.God also gave Alan the ability to have perspective and to stop awfulizing things so much. He gave Alan the knowledge that we can choose the opportunities before us, and that we don’t have to let life happen to us. Most of all, Alan says he learned that God won’t leave us alone. There are always people who can help us and support us. And we can always be there for other people by asking them to dinner, to go for a walk, to serve them, send flowers, or more. God has helped Alan take his pain, and turn that into great ways to help others.Recommended ResourcesAlan loves the following resources:Who Moved My Cheese by Dr. Spencer Johnson. Alan says this book helps us realize that things change and we don’t always get a choice in what happens, but that’s ok.Leadership and Self-Deception by the Arbinger Institute. This book talks about putting up walls, our thought processes, and our perspective.Contacting AlanYou can contact Alan at [email protected].

Bringing You "Common Sense" Leadership Principles for the 21st Century. Cevin (pronounced “Kevin”) Ormond is a Personal Leadership Expert and a Keynote and Inspirational Speaker.Cevin interviews Tom Gandley. They discuss the need for leadership skills in our world today.

Brett Lechtenberg Interviews Mark Petersen, Primitive skills and survival expert, mountaineering guide, outdoor educator and is certified in wilderness medicine. Mark is the former Director of Extreme Endurance for Spartan Race.Mark has 6 continental summits under his belt and now has his sights on climbing Mt. Everest. Additionally, Mark the owner of Outdoor Adventure RetreatsWebsite: www.operationlimitlessproject.com

Brett Lechtenberg Interviews Bill Schuffenhauer, Olympic silver medalist, and three time Olympian. Bill overcame a life where all he knew growing up was drugs, poverty and negativity. Still he cultivated a belief that with focus and dedication he could become an Olympian and achieve his dreams.Bill’s amazing Olympic journey culminated with him receiving his silver medal a mere four blocks from the very dumpster he ate out of just to survive as a child. Now, Bill shares his message and motivates others to overcome their obstacles through his speaking and training career.Website: www.operationlimitlessproject.com

Brett Lechtenberg interviews Sal Rossano. Sal is a 22 year veteran of the US Military and is the lead medic and trainer in the military's elite 19th Special Forces unit.Sal's vast experience teaching Men, Women, US citizen's and non US citizen's give him an amazing teaching ability and a unique human perspective that enable him to relate to varied groups of people on a variety of subjects.Website: www.operationlimitlessproject.com

Cristine Interviews Emily Bernath, the author of Broken Lenses: Identifying Your Truth in a World of Lies. Emily and Cristine discuss two lessons from Chapter Three entitled "I am Not Alone". They address issues of isolation and separation as they reveal personal experiences of connecting to God.The interview will address the following questions: Do "rebels" ever return to God?What role does community play in supporting our Kyngdom One connection?Does being sinful have to be shameful?Have you considered letting God write your story?Cristine Price, M.S.Author, Researcher and Quantum Practitionerquantaliving.com/www.cristineprice.com435-915-6915

Tamara K. Anderson interviews Cristine Price on the Stories of Hope in Hard Times Podcast. In this episode Cristine shares her journey from drug addiction to mental health counselor and the miracles which shaped her life: prayer, choice, and God's grace.The Miracles Which Helped Me Overcome AddictionCristine's BioOver 30 years ago, Christine Price found herself deep in addiction. Through several miracles she turned her life around and is now a clinical mental health counselor. She has worked in the substance abuse field and has been a school psychologist. Cristine has a thriving practice in integrative mental health, which brings both Eastern and Western medicine together. She is currently a doctoral student in natural medicine studying the wellbeing of practitioners. Cristine is the author of various self help books and tools, and she's working to promote conscious therapies. She is a wife, mother, and has a beautiful story of hope.Cristine's StoryThe Boat AnalogyCristine loves using the analogy of a little boat on a little river, there's a natural, downhill slope and if you're not rowing upward, you naturally gravitate downward. She says that analogy describes most of her childhood and adolescence.The Oars of Faith and WorksShe explains she later figured out she only had one oar and for that reason she really wasn't a great rower. Cristine says the oars are "faith" and "works" and she was only using the "works" oar to row her boat. Cristine says it took her a major fall to find the "faith" oar she needed.Christine says there was no substance abuse in her family system. She was raised by a fairly religious family and it was a major surprise for them when she started declining in a way that they didn't understand.The Trauma She Tried to BuryCristine believes an early trauma at age 4 and then at age 14 led to her spiritual decline, although her parents didn't realize she had been traumatized. So at age 14 she threw out her "faith" oar and began to drink and to do things which were against the rules she grew up with. She felt that she should be punished for breaking the rules, and even wrote in her journal that she needed to punish herself.Cristine felt she would be in trouble if she confessed, so she decided to do punishment for herself. She also felt a lot of fear. Her parents were baffled and couldn't understand the major changes in her personality and her anger. Cristine says she stifled fear for most of her life due to her trauma, and that led to anger. She was punishing herself, and everyone else.The Truth Comes OutOne day her mom read her journal, desperate for some answers. Cristine says she can't imagine how that night was for her mom. She believes must have been heartbroken to find the reality of what Cristine was going through, and the depth of where she had gotten. Cristine was heavily into drugs, and says it was a wonder she wasn't pregnant. As the oldest child, Cristine knew her parents had hopes and dreams for her, they wanted her to be an example to her siblings and actively involved in their church.CounselingHer parents ended up taking her to counseling, which eventually inspired her career. She's so grateful they made the choice to get her help, because at the time, she never would have asked for it.Cristine worked with a wonderful counselor who was accepting, and didn't involve Cristine's parents which she says was a good thing. She built a relationship with her counselor, and began to model her life after her. She planted seeds for Cristine, and knew that something deeper was going on. Cristine couldn't even tell her what was wrong; the trauma was too deep.Her counselor suggested hypnotherapy, which Cristine was very against. She says she didn't want to know what she knew deep down. The trauma that was deep inside her fueled her drug addiction which lasted from ages 14 to 20.The RideCristine explains there is a dividing line with addiction. If you go above the dividing line, you're in recovery. On the other side of the line, it's a ride with no effort going downward. Cristine says at this point in her life, she wanted to go for her ride. Her family and counselor didn't want her to go on the ride, but she felt she needed to. Cristine says she felt like she was in a boat trying to go in the direction she wanted to go.Conflict and ChoicesHer family was trying to row her the other direction. It created family tension and conflict, and it created a lot of conflict in her parent's marriage. Cristine says it's not clear if there were problems before she began her spiral or if their problems were a result of the spiral, but it doesn't change the fact that there was tension and conflict in their marriage.At age 18 Cristine graduated from high school and started college. She tried to find a way to get out of the house, but quickly learned she couldn't afford to do that. She had progressed enough in her drug addiction that she was looking for "big, scary drugs."Her parents had gone through counseling and had worked together, coming out stronger than before. They addressed the problem that they had a young adult at home creating tension, and had a counselor help them create a foolproof plan. Cristine could stay at home, but there were requirements for her living at home. She would have curfews and drug testing.Choosing a Different PathCristine says she felt it was impossible for her to stay home with those rules. So, Cristine met a drug dealer and two weeks later, she packed her bags and moved in with him.This was before cell phones, so her parents had no idea where she was going. They had no idea where she was for six months, they just knew she was alive and would go by to see her at work for a minute or two when they could.Fast Cooking AddictionsAbout a year after Cristine found hard drugs, Cristine remembers a day when she thought about how highly addictive these kinds of drugs were and began to be worried. Cristine says her boat hadn't gone off the waterfall yet, she still knew she had a choice.Cristine compares drug addiction to cooking a frog; if you put a frog in boiling water it will jump right out. If you put a frog in cold water and slowly turn up the heat, you cook the frog. Cristine says some addictions are more fast cooking.A RealizationOne night Cristine could no longer refuse substances. She realized she was "boiled." They controlled her.At the age of 20, she realized she was fully addicted to drugs. It was the same year as the "Just Say No!" campaign by Nancy Reagan. There were lots of pamphlets at her school, and she took some home. She read them through, and realized she met the criteria. She was an addict. Cristine felt scared, and didn't know what to do.Effects of the DrugsIt was about this same point when she realized what the drugs were doing to her physically. She felt like she had an ulcer, she had sores, she just felt like something was wrong. Her body was aging, it was deteriorating, and she felt like it was toxic.A few months later, everything spiraled out of control. Things started to go bad in her drug-dealing world. She explained that the drug world is a dark, empty world where she started experiencing depression, had financial issues, had to play games with landlords, dealt with betrayals and loss of friends, and experienced extreme paranoia.Cristine was also attending college and struggled with papers and grades. She explains, "There were times when my heart was beating so fast with a combination of things I was using that I thought maybe I would have go to the hospital. And if I did that I would be in trouble and then I have to deal with legal stuff." She felt so much stress and pressure.The Miracles1. Parental LoveCristine remembers working in a deli that allowed smoking and sold every variety of coffee, and it was a hangout for college students who enjoyed partying. Cristine remembers her dad walking in to the smoke-filled room to buy an overpriced sandwich, just to spend two minutes with her. She felt "something" from that. In the midst of everything she was in, she knew he cared. Her mother also came to visit her in the spring, and they sat outside together for a few minutes to chat.She says these were significant moments for her, realizing that her parents still loved and cared about her. The little things they did made a difference. They kept their boundaries, but were willing to come into her world.One spring day, her mother invited her home for a half-birthday party, per a tradition of celebrating half birthdays from her childhood. Cristine says this gesture was so meaningful, that her parents would go out of their way to celebrate her. She felt unconditional love, and says "it's a powerful thing."2. Cristine's Christmas GiftIn early December Cristine's mom contacted her and asked if she would come home for Christmas. Cristine asked if she could bring her boyfriend, and her mother agreed.At the Christmas gathering her family had a spiritual message at the end. Her mother asked them to each think about giving a gift to Christ. Cristine thought about that idea for weeks.On Christmas Eve, Cristine was in a surreal place. She couldn't sleep and she couldn't eat. She felt like she was searching for something. That evening she and her boyfriend ended up at a party, and she remembers seeing everything differently. People were collapsed on the floor with eyes glazed over. Cristine says she suddenly realized these people had aged so much in a year. And she realized this wasn't what she wanted.Cristine thought about the song Hotel California, "you can check in anytime you like, but you can never leave." She says it felt like that.In this moment of clarity, Cristine decided to pray. She knew what her gift to Christ would be: to give up all the drugs. She felt a voice speak to her heart and mind saying, "thank you" and felt the words written on her heart. That impression has stayed with her for her 30 years of recovery.Cristine told her parents on Christmas day that she was ready to come home.3. Recovery with God's HelpCristine moved home and felt a more positive vibe and spirit in her home. Her parents were able to connect and find solutions for her. She felt her extended family system behind her with massive prayers and love.Cristine started to pursue a career in social work. She found therapy, started to resolve the trauma she had pushed away, and found recovery. Cristine says everyone is responsible for their own journey, and she wouldn't recommend her path, but knows there was purpose behind it.She says there is great value in talking to people who have also had similar experiences. There are many who have had their own journey of overcoming. Cristine had fallen down her own waterfall, hit bottom, and saw no way out. That was when a helicopter labeled HP (for Higher Power) showed up and came to help her get back in her boat back on course. At this point she chose to take both oars and use them to propel her forward.Finding faith was a choice, and once she chose it, she never looked back.Telling Her StoryCristine has written a book under a pen name Christy V. where she shares her story and details the 12-step process and how that goes hand in hand with her journey and recovery with Christ's help. This book is called, Whereas I Was Blind, Now I See. In this books she talks more about the analogy of the boat and codependency.If you would like to hear Cristine talk more about her journey, listen to her tell about it on her podcast, Conscious Kyngdoms where she shares her "Journey to My First Awakening."Here is a motivating poem Cristine shared during our interview:Life doesn't have to be pain. It could be glory.You simply come here to write your own story.We've all shown up on a very grand stage.Some scenes are tough, but just turn the page.Stay true to your character and trust in the script.In the final reel much will be clipped.Is your story written to make the cut?Have you risen and prevailed, or stayed in a rut?Have you literally forged a book of your own?Do you star as a villain or a King on a throne?The end of this Epic is not like the rest, with a loser and winner like some tales suggest.It's not about getting the highest point score.It's all about connection and ending the war.You see within each of us is both light and dark.We've all the ingredients for a good character arc.As we resolve our own battles, we see what is true.There's a magnificent director with a pivotal view.When we acknowledge the plan and claim our own role,We can relax in the knowing, and then watch it unfold.Favorite Bible StoryCristine loves the story of Paul from the Bible. He was an antagonist of Christians and those who followed Christ, and then one day he changed. He changed his name and his soul, and became absolutely devoted to Christ. Cristine says this absolutely describes her story. Like Paul, she has become zealous in lifting others.Helpful ResourcesCristine says that to recover you have to do your work, which for her meant a 12 Step Program. She also recommends Emotions Anonymous which has 12 step resources for dealing with emotional issues. It can be a great help for families and addicts themselves. It helps you deal with feelings and work on emotional healing. Alcoholics Anonymous is another resource Cristine suggests for those who are struggling.The Anatomy of Peace by the Arbinger institute is a fabulous recommendation for parents of children who are struggling. It kind of tells the story from parent's perspective who drop their child off their teenager off at a rehab camp. And that's where the solution begins. Cristine highly recommends this book because it points to parents, "doing your own work, and learning how to set boundaries. And you learn how to establish what's okay in your sphere of influence, and do it with absolute love."Connecting With CristineYou can visit Cristine's website at cristineprice.com. On her website Cristine shares resources and has links to her books.Christine's lasting message is that the individual in trouble needs to buy in and be ready to make the choice to change. They need to do the work so they can learn, and be happy, and offer experiences to others. At the end of the day, everyone has a choice. And we have to let other people make their own choices and come to their own recovery, on their own time.Shareable Thoughts and Memes

Leadership Skills Discussion with Jeff SteinbergCevin interviews Jeff Steinberg. They discuss the need for leadership skills in our world today. www.jeffsteinberg.netwww.tinygiant.comCEVIN ORMONDThe Master of Self-Leadership' - Leadership Expert | Speaker #1 International Bestselling Author Coach | Trainer T. +1 801-671-5542  E: [email protected] www.cevinormond.com

Bringing You "Common Sense" Leadership Principles for the 21st CenturyCEVIN ORMONDThe Master of Self-Leadership' - Leadership Expert | Speaker #1 International Bestselling Author Coach | Trainer T. +1 801-671-5542  E: [email protected] www.cevinormond.com