Ruminations

In this episode of Ruminations, we’re joined by Paul and Phyllis Van Amburgh of Dharma Lea—a 100% grass-fed, holistically managed dairy in upstate New York. They share their unlikely journey from first-time conventional dairy farmers to nationally recognized leaders in regenerative agriculture. What changed everything? Holistic Management.

We get into the weeds of what that transition really looked like—from the tough decisions and mindset shifts to the practical changes on the ground. By moving from rotational to holistic planned grazing, they extended their grazing season by 120%, slashed feed costs, and brought herd health to a whole new level—cutting mastitis rates from 73% to just 3%.

But their impact didn’t stop at the farm gate. Paul and Phyllis helped build the supply chain for Maple Hill Creamery, guiding over 125 farms in making the leap to grass-fed. Today, they mentor fellow farmers who want to build operations that are ecologically sound, financially viable, and deeply rooted in values.

This is a candid, practical, and inspiring conversation about what it really takes to go regenerative—and why it’s worth it.

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[5:33] Life on the farm  

[13:00] Why they built a family-run business  

[26:41] Getting into farming  

[37:24] Unlearning old business habits  

[43:40] Grass-fed vs grain-fed: financial insights  

[57:55] Transition to 100% grass-fed dairy  

[58:00] Managing yield drag & system change  

[1:04:33] Improving soil health  

[1:07:29] Understanding forage & nutrition  

[1:16:38] From utilization to recovery mindset  

[1:32:21] Planned vs rotational grazing  

[1:39:09] Advice for transitioning farmers  

[1:47:07] What changed slowly over time  

[1:52:11] Visiting Dimbangombe in Zimbabwe  

[1:59:32] Future of regenerative agriculture

[2:10:21] Closing

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This episode is brought to you by Savory Institute’s Regenerating Members, a global community committed to restoring grasslands. Learn more and join for just $10/month at 👉 https://savory.global/member

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Regenerative Business and Living Systems Design with Tre Cates

In this episode of Ruminations, host Bobby Gill delves into regenerative business practices with Tre Cates, founder of nRhythm. They explore the concepts of living systems design, organizational health, and the distinction between managing complexity versus control. Cates shares his experiences from working with the Savory Institute, the development of the Savory Hub model, and the transformation of businesses by applying regenerative principles. This episode offers deep insights into creating resilient and thriving organizations by focusing on the interconnectedness of people, processes, and the environment.

Tre Cates is the founder of nRhythm, a consulting firm helping organizations around the world design systems that align with the principles of life itself—complexity, emergence, resilience, and interconnectedness.

In this episode of @SavoryInstitute’s Ruminations podcast, Tre joins us to explore:

- What It Means to Design a Regenerative Organization

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00:35 Meet Tre Cates: Founder of nRhythm

01:18 Savory Institute and Holistic Management

01:39 Exploring Complexity and Leadership

02:12 Sponsor Message: Savory Journey Giveaway

04:15 Conversation with Tre Cates Begins

05:42 Understanding the Cartesian Split

08:38 Complexity in Agriculture and Beyond

16:54 Managing Complexity vs. Control

28:27 Patterns and Principles of Living Systems

32:09 nRhythm's Approach to Regenerative Organizations

43:27 Foundational Beliefs and Operational Identity

44:52 Monitoring Health and Emergence

51:20 Understanding Governance Structures

53:00 Creating Conditions for Success

55:42 Monitoring for Emergence

56:55 Embracing Emergence in Organizations

01:11:34 Case Study: Transforming a Boutique Firm

01:18:44 The Savory Hub Network and Decentralization

01:26:13 Influential Thinkers and Schools of Thought

01:33:19 Future Patterns and Societal Shifts

01:44:00 Final Thoughts and Call to Action

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This episode is brought to you by Savory’s Regenerating Members, a global community restoring over 100 million acres through holistic management. Join today for just $10/month and help regenerate 400+ acres every year:

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In this episode of the Ruminations podcast, host Bobby Gill is joined by Dr. Paige Stanley from Colorado State University to dive deep into the science of soil health on grazing lands. They explore the latest research on carbon sequestration in arid and semi-arid rangelands, discuss the significance of different types of organic matter in carbon permanence, and introduce a new framework for understanding how grazing management affects soil carbon accumulation. The conversation also touches on the mental models of holistic managers and the potential of regenerative grazing to mitigate climate change. Tune in to learn more about Dr. Stanley's interdisciplinary approach and groundbreaking work in rangeland ecosystems.

Dr. Paige Stanley is an interdisciplinary scientist at Colorado State University, exploring how regenerative grazing can unlock soil’s carbon-storing potential and foster climate resilience.

In this episode of @SavoryInstitute’s Ruminations podcast, Dr. Stanley joins us to explore:

- How Regenerative Grazing Affects Soil Carbon in Arid Rangelands

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00:55 Introducing Dr. Paige Stanley

03:55 Dr. Stanley's Research on AMP Grazing

08:01 Understanding Soil Carbon Dynamics

13:27 Challenges in Soil Carbon Research

21:42 Exploring Soil Texture and Carbon Sequestration

28:37 Adaptive Multi-Paddock Grazing vs. Holistic Management

32:44 Ruminating on Soil Carbon: A New Framework

39:23 Upcoming Savory Journey to Zimbabwe

39:55 Earth Day Giveaway Details

40:53 Understanding Grazing Categories

44:30 Mechanisms of Under and Overgrazing

50:37 Challenges in Soil Carbon Research

56:19 Feasibility of Soil Carbon Measurement for Ranchers

01:04:20 Technological Advances in Soil Science

01:10:51 Holistic Management and Adaptive Grazing

01:18:43 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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This episode is brought to you by Savory’s Regenerating Members, a global community making real change possible on over 100 million acres. Join for just $10/month and help restore 400+ acres every year:

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In the inaugural episode of the Ruminations podcast, host Bobby Gill sits down with Allan Savory, the renowned founder of Holistic Management and the Savory Institute. The conversation explores Allan’s adventurous beginnings as a young game ranger in southern Africa, his time in military leadership, politics, and ecological research—all unfolding during a transformative period in global history.

This episode highlights how a unique convergence of circumstances—colonial collapse, ecological degradation, and Allan’s cross-disciplinary career—created the conditions for the development of Holistic Management. Allan shares how insights from tracking, land stewardship, and systems thinking challenged conventional science and laid the foundation for a groundbreaking framework that has since changed the way we understand and manage complexity in agriculture.

We also get a preview of Allan’s forthcoming memoir, which captures the rich backstory behind one of the most influential ecological movements of our time.

In this premiere episode of @SavoryInstitute’s Ruminations podcast, Allan joins host Bobby Gill to reflect on:

- How a Young Game Ranger Became a Global Voice for Regeneration

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00:09 Allan Savory's Early Adventures

01:31 The Birth of Holistic Management

02:03 Allan's Memoir and Life Reflections

02:37 A Peek into Allan's Study

04:30 Diverse Career and Early Influences

09:25 Challenges and Insights in Wildlife Management

12:40 The Concept of Holistic Management

27:48 Contributions of Jan Smuts and André Voisin

47:03 Military Influence on Holistic Planning

51:53 Introduction to Holistic Management

53:43 The Importance of Livestock in Holistic Grazing

56:39 The Influence of John Acox

01:06:41 Early Career and Wildlife Passion

01:16:17 Tracking and Ecology Insights

01:23:52 Advanced Tracking Techniques

01:32:18 Connecting Ecology and Wildlife Management

01:33:30 The Hippo in the Swamp

01:41:28 The Monkwala Talisman

01:47:38 Rhodesian History and Ian Smith

01:53:18 Racial Tensions and Personal Growth

02:08:32 The Controversy of Elephant Culling

02:14:03 Holistic Management and Future Hopes

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This episode is brought to you by Savory’s Regenerating Members, a global community restoring over 100 million acres through holistic management. Join today for just $10/month and help regenerate 400+ acres every year:

Want to sponsor an episode?  https://savory.global/podcast

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This episode is brought to you by Savory’s Regenerating Members, a global community restoring over 100 million acres through holistic management. Join today for just $10/month and help regenerate 400+ acres every year:

Want to sponsor an episode?  https://savory.global/podcast

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• YouTube: @SavoryInstitute

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We’d love to hear your thoughts: