If you’re suffering, it’s about suffering. If you’re sinning, it’s about suffering. And if we’re driving ourselves to clean up our act and get it right, we’re missing it.

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A helpful resource on this topic is Saint, Sufferers, and Sinners: Loving Others as God Loves Us by Mike Emlet.

Our theme music is by As Isaac. The featured song of this episode is “I Will” by Andy Gullahorn.

This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer Zachary Tate Smith, executive producer Meleah Smith, and generous donors.

Known Ministries is Alex Kocher and Brenda Payne. This season of Conversational Counseling is called "These Three Things."