Today on Sauna Talk, we are joined by the dynamic duo of researcher from Emery University, Deanna Kaplan and Roman Palitsky.

Deanna Kaplan

Deanna Kaplan, PhD is a clinical psychologist with expertise in digital health technologies. She has more than a decade of experience using wearable and smartphone-based technologies to study the dynamics of health processes and clinical change during daily life. Her research is grounded in a whole-person (bio-psycho-social-spiritual) model of health, and much of her work focuses on investigating the dynamics of change of integrative interventions, such as psychedelic-assisted therapies and contemplative practices.

Dr. Kaplan is the Director of the Human Experience and Ambulatory Technologies (HEAT) Lab, a multidisciplinary collaboration between the Department of Family and Preventive Medicine and Emory Spiritual Health. More information about the HEAT Lab is here.

Dr. Kaplan is the co-creator and Scientific Director of Fabla, an unlicensed Emory-hosted app for multimodal daily diary and ecological momentary assessment (EMA) research. Fabla is an EMA app that can securely collect voice-recorded, video-recorded , and photographic responses from research participants. More information about Fabla is here.

Dr. Kaplan holds an adjunct appointment in Emory's Department of Psychology and is appointed faculty for several Emory centers, including the Winship Cancer Institute, Emory Spiritual Health (ESH), the Emory Center for Psychedelics and Spirituality (ECPS), and the Advancement of Diagnostics for a Just Society (ADJUST) Center. She also holds an appointment as an adjunct Assistant Professor at Brown University in affiliation with the Center for Digital Health. Dr. Kaplan received her PhD in Clinical Psychology from the University of Arizona, completed her predoctoral clinical internship at the Alpert Medical School of Brown University, and completed a postdoctoral research fellowship at Brown University, where she received an F32 National Research Service Award (NRSA) from the National Institutes of Health (NIH). Her research is funded by the NIH, the Health Resources Services Administration (HRSA), the Georgia Clinical and Translational Science Alliance, the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation, and the Vail Health Foundation among others. She was named as a 2025 Rising Star by Genomics Press for her work in mental health assessment innovation.

Roman Palitsky

Roman Palitsky, MDiv, Ph.D. is Director of Research Projects for Emory Spiritual Health and a Research Psychologist for Emory University School of Medicine. His research program investigates the pathways through which culture and health interact by examining the biological, psychological, and social processes that constitute these pathways. His areas of interest include biopsychosocial determinants in cardiovascular health, chronic pain, and grief. In collaboration with Emory Spiritual Health, his research addresses cultural and existential topics in healthcare such as religion, spirituality, and the way people find meaning in suffering, as they relate to health and illness. His work has also focused on the role of religious and existential worldviews in mindfulness-based interventions, as well as implementation and cultural responsiveness of these interventions.

Dr. Palitsky's academic training includes a PhD in Clinical Psychology from the University of Arizona with a concentration in Behavioral Medicine/Health Psychology, and a Master of Divinity from Harvard University. He completed clinical internship in the behavioral medicine track at Brown University Warren Alpert Medical School, where he also completed a postdoctoral fellowship.

Deanna and Roman were in town attending and speaking at the 2025 SSSR Conference, Society for the Scienific Study of Religion. And as you will hear, we get deep into the spirit of sauna, a spiritual connection we allow ourselves to have, presented to us through the wonderfulness of time on the bench and chilling out in the garden, all misty wet with rain.

I've had the pleasure of sitting on the sauna bench with well over a hundred guests for Sauna Talk. Whether you're listening in your car, out for a walk, or sweating it out on your own bench, my goal as host is to help keep the conversation flowing. Like good löyly, Sauna Talk rises, rolls, and wraps around us—natural, unforced, and alive.

That same spirit was there last night with Chris Heck.

Chris grew up in Northern Minnesota, made his way into engineering school, and deep into his electrical engineering career. He spent a couple years living in Finland—where sauna isn't a luxury, it's an everyday way of life. He travels to Finland regularly working for Wärtsilä a global company with over 10,000 employees, a leader in innovative technologies for the marine and energy markets. Big equipment for ships and energy plants.

We met on a late fall afternoon under cool rain and heavy clouds. The last time I stood in his backyard was several months previous. His sauna was still just a shell—bare studs and roof. Seeing his completed sauna brought a different kind of warmth. Before round one, I snapped a few photos, smiling at the thought that my Sauna Build book helped Chris bring his own health and wellness backyard retreat to life.

Once we settled onto the bench, the talk found its rhythm—thermally aligned in good spirit. Just like a good sauna round, it built naturally, with heat, laughter, and a shared appreciation for how something so simple can feel so good.

As the rounds went on, so did the conversation—about work and life, Finland and Minnesota, and how sauna has a way of connecting it all. That's what Sauna Talk is about: real people who recognize that good heat knows no borders. So grab your towel, pour a little water on the rocks, and join us for this session with Chris Heck.

Welcome to this episode of Sauna Talk, where we head back to Farris Bad, resort spa and wellness retreat South of Oslo, Norway. We get to sit with Jerome, who is a long standing steam master at the resort. Here he leads aufguss ceremony and assists two time Sauna Talk guest Lasse Eriksen.

10,000 hours

One thing I wish I had asked Jerome in this interview is to venture a guess at how many guests he's "entertained" (if that's the right word) over his 10-plus years leading aufguss sessions at this world-renowned facility. Some quick farmer's math gets us close: a few sessions a day, five days a week, for 10 years… that adds up to well over 10,000 people.

I'm one of those 10,000—a repeat guest for a couple of years, attending several of his aufguss ceremonies.

An Aufgussmeister, in my view, is best to not be lead into temptation. For like a church paster, there could be that ego boost that comes from standing in front of an audience, performing. Controlling the movement of steam, and the administering of essences and microclimate manipulation could give one a feeling of power, dominance even.

Aufguss master responsibilities

Yet Lasse instills some deep and powerful education with his students. He gives them freedom to be creative with their art, yet he also instills true message that the sauna is the teacher. The stove and the heat and steam it creates is to be respected. The duty an aufgussmeister has to those sitting on the bench is an important one. Safety is critical. For the under educated, pushing steam and controlling time in the hot room is a noble and great responsibility.

Each session is led with an important statement. You are welcome to leave the session, but once you leave, do not come back in. The door to the hot room opens in one direction during an aufguss ceremony.

But back to Jerome. After producing over 100 Sauna Talk podcasts, I've learned what makes a guest unforgettable: someone who can take us right to the edge of the box. During my visits to Farris Bad, Jerome would casually share insights about aufguss—and every time, I'd think, people need to hear and feel this for themselves!

Today, we get that chance, right now. Let's step behind the scenes into the fascinating, ever-evolving world of aufguss. Please welcome Jerome to Sauna Talk!

Podcast summary

Jerome Farris, a sauna master at Farris Bad in Larvik, Norway, discusses his role and background. He has been at Farris Bad for eight years, having moved from Switzerland. Jerome speaks multiple languages and has a Montessori teaching background, which he applies to his sauna master role. He emphasizes the importance of sensory experiences and the therapeutic aspects of sauna rituals. Farris Bad has seven saunas and offers courses for aspiring steam masters. Jerome highlights the collaborative and non-prescriptive nature of the sauna experience, aiming to connect guests with their roots and elements. He also shares insights into the sauna's cultural significance and its benefits for well-being.

Key Moments 2:36-3:48 Jerome explains how his background with kids at Montessori and performance art helped him with his current job in sauna- so interesting! 8:44-9:03 Jerome talks about proposing to his wife! 30:12-31:00 Jerome discusses people pushing themselves/ MMA fighters- this was interesting

Today on Sauna Talk, we welcome a very special guest. Dr. Hans Hägglund.

Who is Dr. Hans Hägglund?

Hans Hägglund MD, PhD, is a medical doctor and professor at Uppsala University, in Northern Sweden. Professor Hägglund has a strong research back ground in clinical research within medicine. He graduated from Karolinska institute, Sweden and did his post doc at Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center in Seattle, USA. Between 2013 and 2018 he served as the director of the Cancer Center at Uppsala University Hospital. Professor Hägglund also had the position as the national cancer coordinator at The Swedish Association of Local Authorities and Regions (SALAR) between 2019-2022.

He currently holds a position as a senior consultant at Karolinska University Hospital in Stockholm, which is where we catch up with him for this episode of Sauna Talk.

Hot facts

On this episode of Sauna Talk, we recognize that Hans Hägglund is a man who wears many hats in the world of health, wellness, and sauna culture. Hans is an affiliated researcher at the Center for Resilient Health at the Stockholm School of Economics, and co-founder of Vision Zero Cancer in Sweden. Known by many as the "sauna doctor," he serves at the Swedish Sauna Academy, sits on the board of the Sauna Research Institute and the International Sauna Association, and played a key role in organizing the XVII International Sauna Congress in Haparanda/Tornio back in 2018. His book The Sauna Book – Hot Facts on Sauna and Health, published in Swedish in 2020, has attracted wide attention for the way it bridges science and tradition.

We explore why sauna and cold bathing are seeing a surge in global interest, and what challenges remain in researching their health benefits. Hans shares his thoughts on why sauna bathing should be considered alongside traditional medicine, gives us a glimpse into the new book he's writing, and reflects on how prevention can be far more cost-effective than treatment. Along the way, we discuss his professional journey, the boards he serves on, and even his earliest sauna memories.

And, of course, we'll hear his take on one of my favorite questions: from a Swedish — and global — perspective, what's the most misunderstood thing about sauna that he wishes more people knew?

Let's welcome Dr. Hans Hägglund to Sauna Talk.

Here's a short intro for social medializing:

"In this episode of Sauna Talk, I sit down with Hans Hägglund — "the sauna doctor" — affiliated researcher, co-founder of Vision Zero Cancer, and board member of the International Sauna Association. We dive into the rising global interest in sauna and cold bathing, the challenges of sauna research, and why prevention may be the most powerful medicine. Hans also shares personal sauna memories, his upcoming book project, and what he believes is the most misunderstood thing about sauna."

Punchy one sentences:

From Swedish sauna congresses to cold plunges, Hans Hägglund brings the heat — and the science — to Sauna Talk.

What's the most misunderstood thing about sauna? "The sauna doctor" Hans Hägglund has a prescription.

Sauna, science, and a splash of cold water — Hans Hägglund joins Sauna Talk for a deep dive into the health of heat.

Today on the sauna bench, we head to Oslo, Norway, and visit with the folks at Oslo Badstuforening, (Oslo Sauna Association).

This is my second trip to Norway in as many years. They say that you never step into the same river twice, and I'll contend that we never sit on the same sauna bench twice. For last year, I took many saunas in the Oslo Harbour, as well as published a Sauna Talk with the Oslo Sauna Association team – and you can listen to that episode which is #99. And this year, I get right back into the Oslo sauna spirit, yet with more focus on the "behind the scenes" history, construction, operation, and warm hearted people who make it all happen. Because frankly, I'm overwhelmed with the Badstu Boom, as it's called. I really dig the Norwegians!

The Norwegians

They have sauna (badstu) deep in their Viking history. They approach it width depth and culture like the Finns, but with the open minded collaborative artful attention and appreciation of the Brits. AND without the capitalistic franchise money to be made CEO Instagramification land grab of many Americans.

Take this Sauna Talk as example. Main guests on this show are Ragna, Secretary General, Oslo Badstuforening. And Aslak, who also has an official sounding title at Oslo Badstuforening, along the lines of "chief operations manager" which could mean loading firewood in the morning and replacing a burned out stove in the afternoon.

A few different countries

And we get to sauna serendipity also, as Hannah Mary Goodland joins us from Haar Sauna which is located way up north in the British Isles. Haar Sauna is the first mobile sauna in Scotland. Hannah Mary is also in Oslo and so what better than a bunch of sauna business folks from different a few different countries Sauna Talking it out on the bench, while over looking the fjord in Oslo.

For those familiar, and for those who keep up with SaunaTimes and sauna travel, Oslo Sauna Association has an every expanding fleet of floating saunas. Each one unique, named after a particular bird, and pretty much guaranteed to have local Oslo residents with a few foreigners sprinkled in for contrast social therapy.

For our Sauna Talk, Ragna chooses for us the Seagull Sauna. And you'll soon get to hear why she chose this particular sauna, out of the 24 or so floating nearby.

I think about the floating sauna revolution. I wrote about it here over two years ago. And since then, I have written and reviewed several other floating saunas, such as my friends Nick and Jess at Löyly floating in BC Canada, who now have three more floating projects in development. David, of course, from Von Sauna in Seattle, who I met at Sauna Days aboard the Viking Floating Sauna. And has what many report to be incredibly great heat on Lake Washington. But the thing is, floating saunas are all over the place in Europe, and you can check in with Sauna Sam who takes us dockside in Amsterdam, for example.

Catching the floating sauna bug

Many of these floating saunapreneurs caught the bug and inspiration from their times in Oslo, including the just christened Alex and Gabe's aptly titled Fjord Sauna, the first floating sauna in San Francisco Bay Area. And soon to be launched, we will visit with Kate Butchart, an American who lived in Oslo for seven years, who is introducing Kos Sauna, the first floating sauna to open on Saratoga Lake in Saratoga Springs, NY, scheduled to debut in September 2025.

Kos "koos" translates from Norwegian as a concept meaning cozy joy—simplicity that fosters small delights and community.

Sound familiar? Well, let's get to it. From the floating sauna bench in Oslo Norway, I am pleased to bring you this episode of Sauna Talk!

This is a joint Sauna Talk podcast with Linda and Otto who also run the Sprit of Sauna podcast from Finland as well as Sipoonjoki Heritage Sauna, just outside Helsinki, Finland.

Linda and Otto are business partners who share a common interest in preserving the cultural roots and history of smoke sauna, promoting the rituals and power behind, and help create a place and platform for education and retreats at their sauna facility in nature, just outside Helsinki, Finland.

Sauna Talk: Sipoonjoki heritage sauna

Sipoonjoki's heritage sauna offers a unique experience in a country sauna, where bathing leaves you feeling especially cleansed and refreshed.

www.saunotus.fi

I'd call Sipoonjoki a "smoke sauna haven." For guests traveling to Finland or within Finland, the top features include: – their flagship smoke sauna, built traditionally, within the hill mound with stone walls. – saunotus ceremonies and treatments – using plants and herbs, growing on sight and in the shadows nearby. – education and retreats.

The day of my visit, as I was departing after my session, a half dozen Finnish ladies were arriving for their private smoke sauna ritual. That's the beauty of smoke sauna – and maybe I should describe smoke sauna for listeners who may not be familiar.

Journey to Sipoonjoki Heritage Sauna

Otto offers to come pick me up in downtown Helsinki. But learning about he and Linda's busy schedule (as owners, operators, parents to each having their own children, etc.) I will have none of it. I love taking public transport in Europe, and Finland is no exception. I take the metro to the central train station and with train stop on my phone. It doesn't take me long to find a younger, sharper, more localized Helsinki -ite at the station to direct me to platform 7. From there, I board the commuter train. From there, I confirm that once the train pushes off, i'm the third stop north of town.

I disembark, and there's Otto waiting for me with a big smile, standing in front of the photo wrapped passenger van. Hugs and hello, and off we go to Sipoonjoki.

The drive is just long enough for us to help orient myself to where we are. And we find the common english word, The tool we're thinking of is called a compass (or drafting compass). You remember from elementary school.

It has one pointed leg and one leg that holds a pencil or lead, allowing you to draw precise circles or arcs. It's commonly used in geometry, drafting, woodworking, and metalworking. Well, this is part of the magic of Linda and Otto's sauna retreat center.

The compass point being Helsinki central, and within the drawn circle is Sipoonkorpi National Park. We are heading for smoke sauna. As Nature is such a critically wonderful component to good sauna. And, here we are, as if transformed to hundreds of kilometers away, yet just close to Helsinki.

I ask: for visitors, car is the best option. But if a tourist were visiting without, what is the best way to get close to you, is it the train that I took, or the bus? "There is a bus stop relatively close and during summer weekends there is a bus that comes directly to the sauna." Gotta love Finland.

Beyond the obvious

My latest Europe trip – 40 saunas in 12 days carried with it a general theme: beyond the obvious. For example, all sauna tourists will hit Löyly in Helsinki, yet few venture on the path less taken to Sipoonjoki. And stepping out of the van with Otto and meeting Linda, on this end of May early afternoon, I'm met with the sound of birds and soft breeze blowing through the tall spruce trees, take sight of the grounds and smoke sauna awaiting me, and i'm filled with joy and calm for what exists beyond the obvious.

We settle into one of their outbuildings, get mic'ed up, and off we go. A joint podcast, The Spirit of Sauna meets SaunaTimes Sauna Talk… and welcome to this episode with Linda and Otto, where we get right into the spirit together with you alongside.

Etusivu

It was the morning after the recent British Sauna Summit in London. Stig Arild Pettersen Secretary General of the Norwegian Sauna Association and I meet up at London's Hackney Baths, which is a perfect backdrop for us to discuss the "Badstu Boom" taking place in Norway and the US. As part of his Secretary General role, Stig heads up the Norweigen version of Sauna Talk – Badstuprat, a title gently borrowed from yours truly and this program.

From Britain and beyond

Britain, having their own "brilliant" bathing renaissance, drew both Stig from the East and me from the West for the Sauna Summit. Our Sauna Talk podcast on the bench dives into the comparing and contrasting of sauna culture in each of our countries. And within hours of this recording, I flung my backpack over my shoulder to fly from London to Oslo to experience the Badstu boom myself. And, there's something wonderful about talking about a countries sauna boom, then touching down within hours and hitting the bench with some fellow sauna nuts in their native land.

Stig and I are kindred spirits on several levels. Proponents of good heat, and positive vibrations of a culture reinventing and rediscovering itself. As example, there are pockets in North America where sauna has been woven into the tapestry for generations – places like the Upper Peninsula Michigan, Northern Minnesota, Thunder Bay Ontario – all places where "the big three" 1. ethnic migration, four distinct seasons, natural cold water elements abound.

Norwegian Sauna Association

But back to Norway. Stig and I discuss how sauna, badstu is in the DNA of all Norweigens. Like in Finland, a hop skip and jump over Sweden to the East, sauna action can be anthropologically documented back thousands of years.

One look at the photos of Norweigen Sauna Association board members – young smiling healthy faces – and you get a flavor of who is helping bolster the Badstu boom. And for me, these are the kind of people I am very comfortable with sharing the sauna bench, and beyond. Lasse Eriksen, with a full page sauna resume and two time guest to Sauna Talk, Ragna Marie Fjeld, Secretary General Oslo Sauna Association, Knut Lerhol – if beers weren't $12 a piece in Norway, and a rental car the equivalent of a monthly salary, well, Norway would be a place to spend a month between 180f. and cold water fjord cold plunges.

The Sauna Talk Global series continues.. Good heat knows no borders. And on the bench from London, let's welcome Stig from Norway, special guest hello with Mark from Great Britain, and yours truly from the United States.

A Sauna Talk from the British Sauna Summit, Tuesday, 20 May 2025 Hilton London Canary Wharf.

Last year, Sauna Summit 2024 and 1.0, about 120 of us gathered rooftop at in Hackney. The spirit was both well organized like a conference, and yet intimate like a family gathering. This year, as attendance swelled to well north of 300, the Hilton Hotel ballroom provided a backdrop and familiarity of a "proper" (to use the British word) organized meeting.

This is the evolution of sauna. What started as a somewhat jest and jovial organisation, like the growth of many things sauna, the British Sauna Society has ballooned into a structured membership of several hundred, representing the "saunapreneurs" of public saunas that dot the map of the UK's shoreline, streams, and urban communities.

Yours truly was given the honour of announcing the winners of the second annual Sauna Summit Awards, which showcases outstanding saunas (Best Urban, Best Community, Best New, etc.). All of the contest participants are winners. And though there's surely pride and competition behind the curtain, yet what is displayed in the UK sauna scene is more collaboration and support. The Brits seem to recognize that the rising sauna tide lifts all public sauna boats.

London Calling

I am reminded of my time living in London. It was decades ago, and I had the dream job of music listings editor at Time Out magazine, where i'd have one on one relationship with the music venues (Dingwalls, Brixton Academy, etc.) and what stood out was the pricing structure of concert tickets. General admission at the top, then the list of discounted tickets (senior, student, unemployed, single parent, counsel estate resident, library card holder, etc.). It's ingrained in British culture to proudly support those underserved. And sauna culture today shares that "community support" ethos. America may face headwinds in this regard, being more capitalistic centric, yet Britain waves the flag of "serving their community" as evidence by the hundreds of saunas dotting their shoreline and beyond.

Anyhow, in this episode we get to hear one on one conversations with folks from Harvia, Jake Newport from Finnmark, kindred spirit author Lassi Liikkanen, key Summit organizer Mark Lamb, his wife and author Emma O'kelly, Sauna from Finland Carita, Rob De Bank, and other folks "behind the scenes" and "between the action."

Notes from presentations at the British Sauna Summit:

Carita

1. Take as long as you like in sauna. Listen to your body. 2. Nudity is common in private saunas. Often ladies and men's sides. 3. Most Finn's prefer 70-80c and we make löyly. 4. Sauna is a safe and relaxing activity for all ages. Sauna at the lake helps make family memories. 5. Everyone sweats differently. More sweat doesn't mean better 6. Sauna stones wear out. Replace them regularly. She changes stones twice a year. 6. Clean the sauna – deep clean under the benches. Dry the sauna after every use. 8. Whisking is gentle and relaxing. Good for your skin and circulation.

Every sauna has its own soul. Löyly is the main thing.

Dr emelia Vuitisalmi "Sauna is the one single place where we truly feel safe and we can relax."

Finns don't count minutes or measure temperature. Sauna stimulates three hormones 1. Dopamine. Direction Motivation and reward. Walk your true path. Sauna is the place to answer these questions

2. Serotonin. Safety Sauna is the place where we feel safe.

3. Oxytocin. Connection. Sauna is an amazing place to connect with ourself. What is behind our own thoughts.

Deep healing power of sauna takes us to a state of love.

Sweat. Let go. Belong.

The deep power of sauna.

—

Rob Da Bank Slo Mo

Drew parallels of organizing festivals to the sauna space in UK.

Dom Bridges Running his sauna for 12 years on the beach in Margate. Free. Significant part of the town. More like a skatepark, its own ecosystem. No one owns it, a spirit of togetherness.

Sara Higgins Seaside Sauna Haus Dorset. "It's about connection with yourself, and it's also about connection with who you share the bench with. "

"Focus on your thing and shout about others. "

Wild Scottish Sauna Jayne McGie & Jamie Craig-Gentles Met each other in the water. Started as a swim group. "We go into the sea to release. " They run 5 saunas and are very active in their community. 1,000 people. 5 pounds each. Brought communities together. Staffing is also part of the community. 18 sauna hosts. Work for one day a week. Extra money for them as a second job.

Zack Avery &Soul Community. The heart of the project is to give people a space to belong. Share spaces together. West London Dundbar theory. Societies thrive in communities of about 100-150 people. Egalitarian space. Not wearing their title. Shared humanity in sauna. Heart of the community space. The sauna is the center of the community space. Need for nurturing spaces. A thirst for better ways of being in the city.

Dr Martha : an expert in ritual and belonging.

Move our way from the normal to the secret.

Physically taken away from the normal… liminality.

Neither here nor there. Sauna creates an intense lininal space.

Research with extreme groups. Extreme experience bond us together.

Expert in ritual and belonging.

—-

The holy trinity : fire, ice, and löyly

Lasse spoke about the three methods of heat transfer plus condensation (moisture forming on the body).

If you follow the "Instagram sauna" and replicate it, you may run into problems that you cannot even power up the heater."

Daryl Bosomworth Brass Monkey

Spoke about ice. And the cold. The important factors of why and how to bring cold as a best practice for saunas.

Cold : "you are micro dosing with a potent stressor. "

Alex Lembke, Finnish Sauna Master of the year. Aufguss means pouring hot water on a tea bag. Technical aspects of löyly. Self Nature – spirit protecting the human. Löyly – your life force. The functions of your body. Your life form. Life force of every being.

"If a sauna has no löyly , it doesn't live. It doesn't breathe. "

You should experience good löyly. Odorless. Long lasting. Pour löyly. Lasts a long time.

"Everyone deserves good löyly. "

—-

Nick Cassenbaum: Jewish schmeisting culture. Bubble Schmeises.

Rosanna Cooney At one time, there's were 75 Turkish style baths in Ireland.

The remembering happened when the nature connection came back

Mikkel. The three Pilar's Social Physical Spiritual – sense of connection with something larger than ourselves.

—-

Cosmin Cîrîc. Therme Bucuresti

Erin Lee. Koru Wellness Ltd.

Aufguss is a sensory experience. You can bring in natural elements close to your sauna. Plants. Sand and oils. Basic elements.

Show aufguss can present the story. They can put their soul on the table. It's a beautiful art.

Emma O'Kelly.

Started with 80 saunas for the book. Then within the year, Feb 2025 – 189 saunas in the book.

Welcome to this special episode of Sauna Talk. We welcome Adam from Thermé USA, who led the panel discussion with three public sauna operators from North America. This episode is a "two-fer" in that as introduction, we get to hear from the group as they talk about the gathering and their panel discussion. Then, we move over to the panel discussion as it happened live, amongst almost 100 people in attendance at the Culture of Bathing gathering in New York City, January, 2025

Let's welcome Annette from Tampa Bay, Florida, Kelly from Hudson Bay, New York and Stephanie, from Montreal Quebec Canada.

Today on Sauna Talk, we welcome Mika Meskanen and Wendy Liu.

Mika is Finnish, and partner Wendy is Chinese. They live in London, and we met for this Sauna Talk on the bench in my backyard sauna in Minneapolis.

This is our second podcast episode together, the first being episode #54. And, as you know, I much prefer Sauna Talk on the sauna bench, where so much magic in conversation and connection usually happens.

A few nuggets

• Sauna Travel: Leading sauna tours to Finland.
• Dynamic Duo
• Origin Story
• Sauna culture in Britain
• Mika's musing: "the stove should always win"
• World Class Wendy: Sauna Aid & connector.