Today on Sauna Talk, we welcome a very special guest. Dr. Hans Hägglund.

Hans Hägglund MD, PhD, is a medical doctor and professor at Uppsala University, in Northern Sweden. Professor Hägglund has a strong research back ground in clinical research within medicine. He graduated from Karolinska institute, Sweden and did his post doc at Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center in Seattle, USA. Between 2013 and 2018 he served as the director of the Cancer Center at Uppsala University Hospital. Professor Hägglund also had the position as the national cancer coordinator at The Swedish Association of Local Authorities and Regions (SALAR) between 2019-2022.

He currently holds a position as a senior consultant at Karolinska University Hospital in Stockholm, which is where we catch up with him for this episode of Sauna Talk.

On this episode of Sauna Talk, we recognize that Hans Hägglund is a man who wears many hats in the world of health, wellness, and sauna culture. Hans is an affiliated researcher at the Center for Resilient Health at the Stockholm School of Economics, and co-founder of Vision Zero Cancer in Sweden. Known by many as the “sauna doctor,” he serves at the Swedish Sauna Academy, sits on the board of the Sauna Research Institute and the International Sauna Association, and played a key role in organizing the XVII International Sauna Congress in Haparanda/Tornio back in 2018. His book The Sauna Book – Hot Facts on Sauna and Health, published in Swedish in 2020, has attracted wide attention for the way it bridges science and tradition.

We explore why sauna and cold bathing are seeing a surge in global interest, and what challenges remain in researching their health benefits. Hans shares his thoughts on why sauna bathing should be considered alongside traditional medicine, gives us a glimpse into the new book he’s writing, and reflects on how prevention can be far more cost-effective than treatment. Along the way, we discuss his professional journey, the boards he serves on, and even his earliest sauna memories.

And, of course, we’ll hear his take on one of my favorite questions: from a Swedish — and global — perspective, what’s the most misunderstood thing about sauna that he wishes more people knew?

Let’s welcome Dr. Hans Hägglund to Sauna Talk.

“In this episode of Sauna Talk, I sit down with Hans Hägglund — “the sauna doctor” — affiliated researcher, co-founder of Vision Zero Cancer, and board member of the International Sauna Association. We dive into the rising global interest in sauna and cold bathing, the challenges of sauna research, and why prevention may be the most powerful medicine. Hans also shares personal sauna memories, his upcoming book project, and what he believes is the most misunderstood thing about sauna.”

From Swedish sauna congresses to cold plunges, Hans Hägglund brings the heat — and the science — to Sauna Talk.

What’s the most misunderstood thing about sauna? “The sauna doctor” Hans Hägglund has a prescription.

Sauna, science, and a splash of cold water — Hans Hägglund joins Sauna Talk for a deep dive into the health of heat.

Today on the sauna bench, we head to Oslo, Norway, and visit with the folks at Oslo Badstuforening, (Oslo Sauna Association).

This is my second trip to Norway in as many years. They say that you never step into the same river twice, and I’ll contend that we never sit on the same sauna bench twice. For last year, I took many saunas in the Oslo Harbour, as well as published a Sauna Talk with the Oslo Sauna Association team – and you can listen to that episode which is #99. And this year, I get right back into the Oslo sauna spirit, yet with more focus on the “behind the scenes” history, construction, operation, and warm hearted people who make it all happen. Because frankly, I’m overwhelmed with the Badstu Boom, as it’s called. I really dig the Norwegians!

They have sauna (badstu) deep in their Viking history. They approach it width depth and culture like the Finns, but with the open minded collaborative artful attention and appreciation of the Brits. AND without the capitalistic franchise money to be made CEO Instagramification land grab of many Americans.

Take this Sauna Talk as example. Main guests on this show are Ragna, Secretary General, Oslo Badstuforening. And Aslak, who also has an official sounding title at Oslo Badstuforening, along the lines of “chief operations manager” which could mean loading firewood in the morning and replacing a burned out stove in the afternoon.

And we get to sauna serendipity also, as Hannah Mary Goodland joins us from Haar Sauna which is located way up north in the British Isles. Haar Sauna is the first mobile sauna in Scotland. Hannah Mary is also in Oslo and so what better than a bunch of sauna business folks from different a few different countries Sauna Talking it out on the bench, while over looking the fjord in Oslo.

For those familiar, and for those who keep up with SaunaTimes and sauna travel, Oslo Sauna Association has an every expanding fleet of floating saunas. Each one unique, named after a particular bird, and pretty much guaranteed to have local Oslo residents with a few foreigners sprinkled in for contrast social therapy.

For our Sauna Talk, Ragna chooses for us the Seagull Sauna. And you’ll soon get to hear why she chose this particular sauna, out of the 24 or so floating nearby.

I think about the floating sauna revolution. I wrote about it here over two years ago. And since then, I have written and reviewed several other floating saunas, such as my friends Nick and Jess at Löyly floating in BC Canada, who now have three more floating projects in development. David, of course, from Von Sauna in Seattle, who I met at Sauna Days aboard the Viking Floating Sauna. And has what many report to be incredibly great heat on Lake Washington. But the thing is, floating saunas are all over the place in Europe, and you can check in with Sauna Sam who takes us dockside in Amsterdam, for example.

Many of these floating saunapreneurs caught the bug and inspiration from their times in Oslo, including the just christened Alex and Gabe’s aptly titled Fjord Sauna, the first floating sauna in San Francisco Bay Area. And soon to be launched, we will visit with Kate Butchart, an American who lived in Oslo for seven years, who is introducing Kos Sauna, the first floating sauna to open on Saratoga Lake in Saratoga Springs, NY, scheduled to debut in September 2025.

Kos “koos” translates from Norwegian as a concept meaning cozy joy—simplicity that fosters small delights and community.

Sound familiar? Well, let’s get to it. From the floating sauna bench in Oslo Norway, I am pleased to bring you this episode of Sauna Talk!

This is a joint Sauna Talk podcast with Linda and Otto who also run the Sprit of Sauna podcast from Finland as well as Sipoonjoki Heritage Sauna, just outside Helsinki, Finland.

Linda and Otto are business partners who share a common interest in preserving the cultural roots and history of smoke sauna, promoting the rituals and power behind, and help create a place and platform for education and retreats at their sauna facility in nature, just outside Helsinki, Finland.

Sipoonjoki’s heritage sauna offers a unique experience in a country sauna, where bathing leaves you feeling especially cleansed and refreshed.

www.saunotus.fi

I’d call Sipoonjoki a “smoke sauna haven.” For guests traveling to Finland or within Finland, the top features include: – their flagship smoke sauna, built traditionally, within the hill mound with stone walls. – saunotus ceremonies and treatments – using plants and herbs, growing on sight and in the shadows nearby. – education and retreats.

The day of my visit, as I was departing after my session, a half dozen Finnish ladies were arriving for their private smoke sauna ritual. That’s the beauty of smoke sauna – and maybe I should describe smoke sauna for listeners who may not be familiar.

Otto offers to come pick me up in downtown Helsinki. But learning about he and Linda’s busy schedule (as owners, operators, parents to each having their own children, etc.) I will have none of it. I love taking public transport in Europe, and Finland is no exception. I take the metro to the central train station and with train stop on my phone. It doesn’t take me long to find a younger, sharper, more localized Helsinki -ite at the station to direct me to platform 7. From there, I board the commuter train. From there, I confirm that once the train pushes off, i’m the third stop north of town.

I disembark, and there’s Otto waiting for me with a big smile, standing in front of the photo wrapped passenger van. Hugs and hello, and off we go to Sipoonjoki.

The drive is just long enough for us to help orient myself to where we are. And we find the common english word, The tool we’re thinking of is called a compass (or drafting compass). You remember from elementary school.

It has one pointed leg and one leg that holds a pencil or lead, allowing you to draw precise circles or arcs. It’s commonly used in geometry, drafting, woodworking, and metalworking. Well, this is part of the magic of Linda and Otto’s sauna retreat center.

The compass point being Helsinki central, and within the drawn circle is Sipoonkorpi National Park. We are heading for smoke sauna. As Nature is such a critically wonderful component to good sauna. And, here we are, as if transformed to hundreds of kilometers away, yet just close to Helsinki.

I ask: for visitors, car is the best option. But if a tourist were visiting without, what is the best way to get close to you, is it the train that I took, or the bus? “There is a bus stop relatively close and during summer weekends there is a bus that comes directly to the sauna.” Gotta love Finland.

My latest Europe trip – 40 saunas in 12 days carried with it a general theme: beyond the obvious. For example, all sauna tourists will hit Löyly in Helsinki, yet few venture on the path less taken to Sipoonjoki. And stepping out of the van with Otto and meeting Linda, on this end of May early afternoon, I’m met with the sound of birds and soft breeze blowing through the tall spruce trees, take sight of the grounds and smoke sauna awaiting me, and i’m filled with joy and calm for what exists beyond the obvious.

We settle into one of their outbuildings, get mic’ed up, and off we go. A joint podcast, The Spirit of Sauna meets SaunaTimes Sauna Talk… and welcome to this episode with Linda and Otto, where we get right into the spirit together with you alongside.

Etusivu

It was the morning after the recent British Sauna Summit in London. Stig Arild Pettersen Secretary General of the Norwegian Sauna Association and I meet up at London’s Hackney Baths, which is a perfect backdrop for us to discuss the “Badstu Boom” taking place in Norway and the US. As part of his Secretary General role, Stig heads up the Norweigen version of Sauna Talk – Badstuprat, a title gently borrowed from yours truly and this program.

Britain, having their own “brilliant” bathing renaissance, drew both Stig from the East and me from the West for the Sauna Summit. Our Sauna Talk podcast on the bench dives into the comparing and contrasting of sauna culture in each of our countries. And within hours of this recording, I flung my backpack over my shoulder to fly from London to Oslo to experience the Badstu boom myself. And, there’s something wonderful about talking about a countries sauna boom, then touching down within hours and hitting the bench with some fellow sauna nuts in their native land.

Stig and I are kindred spirits on several levels. Proponents of good heat, and positive vibrations of a culture reinventing and rediscovering itself. As example, there are pockets in North America where sauna has been woven into the tapestry for generations – places like the Upper Peninsula Michigan, Northern Minnesota, Thunder Bay Ontario – all places where “the big three” 1. ethnic migration, four distinct seasons, natural cold water elements abound.

But back to Norway. Stig and I discuss how sauna, badstu is in the DNA of all Norweigens. Like in Finland, a hop skip and jump over Sweden to the East, sauna action can be anthropologically documented back thousands of years.

One look at the photos of Norweigen Sauna Association board members – young smiling healthy faces – and you get a flavor of who is helping bolster the Badstu boom. And for me, these are the kind of people I am very comfortable with sharing the sauna bench, and beyond. Lasse Eriksen, with a full page sauna resume and two time guest to Sauna Talk, Ragna Marie Fjeld, Secretary General Oslo Sauna Association, Knut Lerhol – if beers weren’t $12 a piece in Norway, and a rental car the equivalent of a monthly salary, well, Norway would be a place to spend a month between 180f. and cold water fjord cold plunges.

The Sauna Talk Global series continues.. Good heat knows no borders. And on the bench from London, let’s welcome Stig from Norway, special guest hello with Mark from Great Britain, and yours truly from the United States.

A Sauna Talk from the British Sauna Summit, Tuesday, 20 May 2025 Hilton London Canary Wharf.

Last year, Sauna Summit 2024 and 1.0, about 120 of us gathered rooftop at in Hackney. The spirit was both well organized like a conference, and yet intimate like a family gathering. This year, as attendance swelled to well north of 300, the Hilton Hotel ballroom provided a backdrop and familiarity of a “proper” (to use the British word) organized meeting.

This is the evolution of sauna. What started as a somewhat jest and jovial organisation, like the growth of many things sauna, the British Sauna Society has ballooned into a structured membership of several hundred, representing the “saunapreneurs” of public saunas that dot the map of the UK’s shoreline, streams, and urban communities.

Yours truly was given the honour of announcing the winners of the second annual Sauna Summit Awards, which showcases outstanding saunas (Best Urban, Best Community, Best New, etc.). All of the contest participants are winners. And though there’s surely pride and competition behind the curtain, yet what is displayed in the UK sauna scene is more collaboration and support. The Brits seem to recognize that the rising sauna tide lifts all public sauna boats.

I am reminded of my time living in London. It was decades ago, and I had the dream job of music listings editor at Time Out magazine, where i’d have one on one relationship with the music venues (Dingwalls, Brixton Academy, etc.) and what stood out was the pricing structure of concert tickets. General admission at the top, then the list of discounted tickets (senior, student, unemployed, single parent, counsel estate resident, library card holder, etc.). It’s ingrained in British culture to proudly support those underserved. And sauna culture today shares that “community support” ethos. America may face headwinds in this regard, being more capitalistic centric, yet Britain waves the flag of “serving their community” as evidence by the hundreds of saunas dotting their shoreline and beyond.

Anyhow, in this episode we get to hear one on one conversations with folks from Harvia, Jake Newport from Finnmark, kindred spirit author Lassi Liikkanen, key Summit organizer Mark Lamb, his wife and author Emma O’kelly, Sauna from Finland Carita, Rob De Bank, and other folks “behind the scenes” and “between the action.”

Carita

1. Take as long as you like in sauna. Listen to your body. 2. Nudity is common in private saunas. Often ladies and men’s sides. 3. Most Finn’s prefer 70-80c and we make löyly. 4. Sauna is a safe and relaxing activity for all ages. Sauna at the lake helps make family memories. 5. Everyone sweats differently. More sweat doesn’t mean better 6. Sauna stones wear out. Replace them regularly. She changes stones twice a year. 6. Clean the sauna – deep clean under the benches. Dry the sauna after every use. 8. Whisking is gentle and relaxing. Good for your skin and circulation.

Every sauna has its own soul. Löyly is the main thing.

Dr emelia Vuitisalmi “Sauna is the one single place where we truly feel safe and we can relax.”

Finns don’t count minutes or measure temperature. Sauna stimulates three hormones 1. Dopamine. Direction Motivation and reward.  Walk your true path. Sauna is the place to answer these questions

2. Serotonin. Safety Sauna is the place where we feel safe.

3. Oxytocin. Connection. Sauna is an amazing place to connect with ourself. What is behind our own thoughts.

Deep healing power of sauna takes us to a state of love.

Sweat. Let go. Belong.

The deep power of sauna.

—

Rob Da Bank Slo Mo

Drew parallels of organizing festivals to the sauna space in UK.

Dom Bridges Running his sauna for 12 years on the beach in Margate. Free. Significant part of the town. More like a skatepark, its own ecosystem. No one owns it, a spirit of togetherness.

Sara Higgins Seaside Sauna Haus Dorset. “It’s about connection with yourself, and it’s also about connection with who you share the bench with. “

“Focus on your thing and shout about others. “

Wild Scottish Sauna Jayne McGie & Jamie Craig-Gentles Met each other in the water. Started as a swim group. “We go into the sea to release. “ They run 5 saunas and are very active in their community. 1,000 people. 5 pounds each. Brought communities together. Staffing is also part of the community. 18 sauna hosts. Work for one day a week. Extra money for them as a second job.

Zack Avery &Soul Community. The heart of the project is to give people a space to belong. Share spaces together. West London  Dundbar theory. Societies thrive in communities of about 100-150 people. Egalitarian space. Not wearing their title. Shared humanity in sauna.  Heart of the community space. The sauna is the center of the community space. Need for nurturing spaces. A thirst for better ways of being in the city.

Dr Martha : an expert in ritual and belonging.

Move our way from the normal to the secret.

Physically taken away from the normal… liminality.

Neither here nor there. Sauna creates an intense lininal space.

Research with extreme groups. Extreme experience bond us together.

Expert in ritual and belonging.

—-

The holy trinity : fire, ice, and löyly

Lasse spoke about the three methods of heat transfer plus condensation (moisture forming on the body).

If you follow the “Instagram sauna” and replicate it, you may run into problems that you cannot even power up the heater.”

Daryl Bosomworth Brass Monkey

Spoke about ice. And the cold. The important factors of why and how to bring cold as a best practice for saunas.

Cold : “you are micro dosing with a potent stressor. “

Alex Lembke, Finnish Sauna Master of the year. Aufguss means pouring hot water on a tea bag. Technical aspects of löyly. Self Nature – spirit protecting the human. Löyly – your life force. The functions of your body. Your life form.  Life force of every being.

“If a sauna has no löyly , it doesn’t live. It doesn’t breathe. “

You should experience good löyly. Odorless. Long lasting. Pour löyly. Lasts a long time.

“Everyone deserves good löyly. “

—-

Nick Cassenbaum: Jewish schmeisting culture. Bubble Schmeises.

Rosanna Cooney At one time, there’s were 75 Turkish style baths in Ireland.

The remembering happened when the nature connection came back

Mikkel.  The three Pilar’s Social Physical Spiritual – sense of connection with something larger than ourselves.

—-

Cosmin Cîrîc.  Therme Bucuresti

Erin Lee. Koru Wellness Ltd.

Aufguss is a sensory experience. You can bring in natural elements close to your sauna. Plants. Sand and oils. Basic elements.

Show aufguss can present the story. They can put their soul on the table. It’s a beautiful art.

Emma O’Kelly.

Started with 80 saunas for the book. Then within the year,  Feb 2025 – 189 saunas in the book.

Welcome to this special episode of Sauna Talk. We welcome Adam from Thermé USA, who led the panel discussion with three public sauna operators from North America. This episode is a “two-fer” in that as introduction, we get to hear from the group as they talk about the gathering and their panel discussion. Then, we move over to the panel discussion as it happened live, amongst almost 100 people in attendance at the Culture of Bathing gathering in New York City, January, 2025

Let’s welcome Annette from Tampa Bay, Florida, Kelly from Hudson Bay, New York and Stephanie, from Montreal Quebec Canada.

Today on Sauna Talk, we welcome Mika Meskanen and Wendy Liu.

Mika is Finnish, and partner Wendy is Chinese. They live in London, and we met for this Sauna Talk on the bench in my backyard sauna in Minneapolis.

This is our second podcast episode together, the first being episode #54. And, as you know, I much prefer Sauna Talk on the sauna bench, where so much magic in conversation and connection usually happens.

• Sauna Travel: Leading sauna tours to Finland.
• Dynamic Duo
• Origin Story
• Sauna culture in Britain
• Mika’s musing: “the stove should always win”
• World Class Wendy: Sauna Aid & connector.

Today on Sauna Talk we re-welcome Jon Sabes. Jon is a returning Sauna Talk guest, first being episode #061, and we rejoin together again, on the same bench for this second episode. Jon spends most of his time with his wife and family in Los Angeles and also in Baja Mexico. He was back to Minneapolis for a winter weekend, and we met for a cross country ski at his Lake Minnetonka house as the sauna was idling its way up to serving temperature.

I love interviewing authors. And for a handful of reasons. One is that I know how much dedication, ambition, and focus it takes to write a book. From start to finish. Another reason why I like interviewing authors is that when it’s a compelling subject, the interview process is easy for me! Our conversation flows like good steam in the hot room. And this is how I felt, sitting on the bench with my good friend Jon Sabes.

We discuss his new book, “Healthy Wealthy Longevity.“ And in his book, you will learn some practical strategies to help you live a fulfilling, happy life. On the bench, we discuss a few key takeaways including:

• Intentional Living: how small, consistent actions can lead to significant improvements over time.
• Compounding Effects: how minor daily habits, whether positive or negative, accumulate, profoundly impacting your overall well-being.
• Holistic Approach: how to recognize the synergy between physical health, financial stability, and emotional happiness,

Through practical advice and insights, “Healthy Wealthy Longevity” serves as a guide for readers aiming to intentionally design a life rich in health, prosperity, and joy.

There are several nuggets in his new book that stay with me, and you’ll get to hear some of them right now..

Oh, before I forget. I have been using Jon’s daily journal for about a month now. It’s insanely good and if, like me, you’re looking to get your train back on the track, I recommend you order his pocket journal and make it a part of your morning routine. The journal helps me organize my goals and tasks. It helps ground me with gratitude and appreciation, helping me on my journey towards living a happier life.

And PS.. Jon is a fellow board member of the Sauna Research Institute. There are some great things brewing in the area of sauna research. And those of us interested in sauna will be hearing more from Jon Sabes and SRI.

Greetings! We recorded this episode as part of the sauna building seminar at the West Coast Sauna Summit, January, 2025, Loon Lake Resort outside Vancouver, BC Canada. Let’s Sauna Talk: building saunas!

I moderate a panel discussion with, on my left, Andrew from Saunabuilder and on my right, Josh from Theraluxe. These two are Western Canadian sauna builders who left their finish nailer behind in order to come to the West Coast Sauna Summit this past month just outside Vancouver, BC Canada. I really enjoyed our time together. You’ll hear my kind of sauna building thinking. From bench heights to wall cladding. Wood stoves to electric. Mobile to fixed backyard, we cover a lot of topics in an open and collaborative spirit.

― Thomas Sowell, A Conflict of Visions: Ideological Origins of Political Struggles

It was impromptu, and it was fun. It was completely unrehearsed, and it rambled in places (when I was unable to hold the microphone). This episode holds some wonderful gems of free thinking. This is Sauna Talk, and this is what I love about Sauna Talk. Like good sauna, Sauna Talk has few rules. This was the spirit at this fireside chat at the West Coast Sauna Summit.

While some sauna’ed and others slept, most of the attendees, 25-30 of us came together for fireside chat Sauna Talk. It was later in the evening on night #2. Imagine seven or so mobile saunas deployed lakeside, just outside the high ceiling gathering room at the Loon Lake retreat centre, nested in the UBC Malcolm Knapp Research Forest. And Co-producer Valterri calling the session together in his Finnish accent: “ok, everybody, let’s gather our chairs around in a circle. Let’s Sauna Talk.”

Oh, man, this is my kind of conference. These are my kind of people, and we get into my kind of thinking and conversing. By this time in the gathering, we had become quite comfortable with each other. A lot of the formal presentations were behind us. Many of the formalities of reading name tags and polite introductions well in the rear view mirrors.

Some sat with their sauna sandals on, some sat barefoot. Others in bathrobes or a towel wrapped around them. We gather for Sauna Talk, after all. New connections and new friendships were alchemized at the West Coast Sauna Summit, and I hope, as you listen along, that this episode brings some of that goodness and spirit, wherever you may be tuning in.

One final note before I turn this over. A huge thank you to Valterri and Linda for not only putting together a great event, and bringing together a wonderful group of thermal enthusiasts, but for helping to create a vibe of “oneness.” Like a resonating, penetrating, satisfying wave of löyly, their relaxed demeanor, positive energy, and spirit of inclusion for all of us in attendance enveloped all of us, equally, together.

I really enjoy the West Coast Sauna Culture. No gatekeeping. Beautiful nature. Cold lakes, open, collaborative thinking. The rising sauna tide lifts all boats. This is how sauna culture can exist, and I’ll do all I can to help share the spirit created by Linda and Valterri, wherever good sauna may take me.

So, without further ado, let’s welcome many of the attendees from the West Coast Sauna Summit to .. Sauna Talk.