Scaling UP! H2O

"So one thing I never do is try to start giving remediation or advice before I truly have understood and diagnosed the problem."

Mentorship and certifications don't replace experience—but they can accelerate it when paired with the right mindset and a disciplined approach to learning. Nella Fergusson, CWT (District Manager, Southern California, Garratt-Callahan), lays out what "growing up" in industrial water treatment actually looks like: repeated exposure to real problems, strong diagnostic habits, and a willingness to keep learning long after year one.

Learning that keeps you employable

Water treatment evolves. Nella contrasts today's challenges with what she faced 15 years ago and explains why complacency is the fastest path to getting left behind. She describes water treatment as industry-specific by nature—food processing cooling and commercial real estate operations don't behave the same, don't shut down the same way, and can't be serviced the same way.

Diagnosing before prescribing

Her troubleshooting process starts with questions: the system's history, what changed, when symptoms appeared, and how critical the impacted use is. She emphasizes water sampling across different times of day and refuses to offer remediation before a proper diagnosis—because misdiagnosis creates extra problems instead of solving the original one.

Career decisions, culture, and the 80/20 risk

Nella shares a candid career detour: leaving Garratt-Callahan for GE Water/Suez, then realizing quickly what she lost—support, resources, and "family"—before returning. She frames many job moves through an 80/20 lens: chasing a missing 20% can cost the 80% that already works, especially when recruiters' incentives don't align with yours.

Credentials that signal competence—and protect end users

Nella explains why she pursued the CWT: an industry-agreed benchmark that reflects years of varied problem-solving. She also discusses ASSE 12080 recertification and why correct sampling, shipping, labeling, and interpretation matter—particularly in Legionella and water safety work. Customers may fear testing; she argues the goal is to find risk where maintenance is weak, then build site-specific procedures that facilities can actually sustain with their staffing. Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!

Timestamps

02:22 - Trace message: CWT prep course + planning for 2026

09:17 - Water You Know with James McDonald

10:48 - Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals

14:49 - Interview with Nella Fergusson, CWT, (District Manager, Southern California, Garratt-Callahan)

16: 27- Ongoing education + how the industry has changed

21:06 - Nella's troubleshooting approach: history, what changed, sampling, impact, don't prescribe before diagnosing

31:00 - Nella's 80/20 rule for deciding whether to leave a company

34:22 - Why she pursued CWT + value of certifications in the industry

40:15 - Getting results immediately + confidence while testing

Connect with Nella Fergusson

Email: [email protected]

Website: http://www.garrattcallahan.com/

LinkedIn: Nella Fergusson, CWT | LinkedIn

Guest Resources Mentioned

ASSE 12080 Certification – ASSE International

Why ASSE Certifications Matter – Garratt‑Callahan

Impact of Cooling Tower Downtime in Food & Beverage Operations – Aggreko

Scheduling Off‑Peak HVAC Maintenance – Facility Response Group

Parenting the Strong-Willed Child: The Clinically Proven Five-Week Program for Parents of Two- to Six-Year-Olds, Third Edition

Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned

AWT (Association of Water Technologies)

AWT - Value of Certification

Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses

Submit a Show Idea

The Rising Tide Mastermind

Water You Know with James McDonald

Question: What is the piece of equipment called that is a heat exchanger placed in the gas passage between the boiler and the stack designed to recover exhaust gas heat into the boiler feedwater?

2025 Events for Water Professionals

Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

Industrial cooling is one of the biggest levers industrial facilities can pull on water use—and it's getting harder to ignore as data centers and other high-heat operations grow. Returning guest Dr. Kelle Zeiher (Project Manager at Garratt Callahan) breaks down what water reuse looks like when you move past slogans and into the realities of pretreatment, concentrate management, footprint, and cost.

Cooling water reuse: the scale of the opportunity

Dr. Zeiher reframes "drought" beyond rainfall, emphasizing aquifer recharge and the limits of focusing only on household restrictions. She contrasts domestic use (~12%) with the much larger share tied to cooling (~50%), then connects that to why optimizing industrial cooling matters—especially when operations sit in arid, desert-like regions with limited water availability. She also shares a data-center statistic that puts "the cloud" into physical terms: ~53 gallons of purified water per gigabyte of data stored to keep environments cool enough for microchips.

Higher cycles, RO blending, and the concentrate question

The conversation moves into practical tower strategy: driving cycles up as far as the water and metallurgy allow. Dr. Zeiher describes a case moving from three cycles to six with RO blending and pretreatment, resulting in millions of gallons saved annually. From there, the engineering problem becomes unavoidable: higher cycles create a concentrated cooling-water stream, and RO adds its own waste stream. The key operational question is how to manage both streams without trading water savings for disposal and reliability issues.

Minimal liquid discharge, and the AEROS approach

"Zero liquid discharge" (ZLD) remains a theoretical target, but Dr. Zeiher is clear about the realities: ZLD can require large equipment and high energy demand. She shares a cost example where a 20 gpm ZLD concept came in at nearly $8 million in capital. Her team's approach focuses on minimal liquid discharge (MLD)—recovering roughly 80–90% of water rather than 98–99%, while reducing energy intensity and footprint. She introduces AEROS (Aqueous Recovery Optimization System): rapid precipitation/conditioning, followed by sequential mechanical and membrane filtration, then an RO polishing step to return purified water.

Industry wisdom: proof-first projects, relationships, and AI

You'll also hear Dr. Zeiher's "proof-first" pathway—bench-style testing, then a 5–10 gpm flow-through evaluation in Oak Ridge, Tennessee (with BioLargo)—plus a process guarantee framework and how credits can apply toward a final system. She closes with leadership lessons on documentation, continuity of customer care, and practical guidance for working with AI: feed it strong technical inputs, then apply human critical thinking before recommendations reach customers.

Listen to the full conversation above. Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!

Timestamps

02:40 — End-of-year reflection becomes a professional challenge: keep learning fast enough to keep systems stable and clients confident.

05:50 — "Dry December" as a discipline story—used to tee up Trace's broader point: habits beat calendar-based resolutions.

12:00 — Water You Know

13:10 — The events page pitch: planning early protects training time and reduces last-minute operational fire drills.

17:00 — Dr. Kelle Zeiher returns after Episode 351; AWT Louisville hallway energy turns into a deep dive on reuse.

18:40 — Mystery novels as technical storytelling: The Cupcake Caper, real lab practices, and a pen name built for a non-scientific audience.

20:50 — Data centers and water: 53 gallons per GB stored reframes "the cloud" as heat management with real resource costs.

23:40 — Macro water math: 50% of U.S. water use tied to cooling vs. 12% domestic—why industrial optimization moves the needle.

27:50 — "Pretreatment is everything": RO's tiny flow channels make debris control and scale prevention non-negotiable.

30:10 — Cycles example: 3 to 6 cycles with RO blending/pretreatment, plus the caution that RO-softened blends can increase corrosion risk.

31:30 — ZLD vs. MLD: energy-heavy evaporation/distillation compared to a lower-energy recovery target that still returns most water.

33:50 — AEROS explained: rapid precipitation + filtration + RO polish, with solids handling designed to keep water moving back to the front end.

37:00 — Customer pathway: bench demos → Oak Ridge pilot (5–10 gpm) → engineered system; upfront testing credits toward purchase.

43:20 — Performance accountability: process guarantee includes refund/take-back if promised performance can't be met.

47:40 — Trust and continuity: plant presence, documentation, and relationship handoffs prevent "solution drift" when people change roles.

54:40 — Working with AI: feed it strong data, then apply human critical thinking so recommendations don't outpace experience.

Quotes

"Water is not a limitless resource. It's a finite resource, and we simply purify it and reuse it over and over again."

"We have to learn to work with AI when it's still a toddler before it grows up into the 6th grade bully and beats you up for your lunch money."

"Persistence overcomes almost anything."

"An AI will give you a great outline for a presentation, but it won't give you a full presentation."

Connect with Dr. Kelle Zeiher

Phone: (630) 660-3457

Email: [email protected]

Website: Water Treatment Expertise Since 1904 I Garratt-Callahan

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelle-zeiher-6bab221/

Guest Resources Mentioned

The Cupcake Caper (Undercover Cat Mysteries) by Kelle Z Riley

Process Heating and Cooling Show Paper (Cooling Tower Cycles & MLD)

Co-Intelligence: Living and Working with AI Paperback by Ethan Mollick

Sensitive: The Hidden Power of the Highly Sensitive Person in a Loud, Fast, Too-Much World Paperback by Jenn Granneman (Author), Andre Sólo (Author)

Empower Your Investing: Adopting Best Practices From John Templeton, Peter Lynch, and Warren Buffett Hardcover by Scott A. Chapman CFA

Membrane Technologies for Sustainable Wastewater Treatment: Advances, Challenges, and Applications in Zero Liquid Discharge (ZLD) and Minimal Liquid Discharge (MLD) Systems

Comparative techno-economic and environmental analysis of minimal liquid discharge (MLD) and zero liquid discharge (ZLD) desalination systems for seawater brine treatment and valorization

Forever Chemicals: A Look at the History, Regulations, Emerging Trends and Technologies to Solve the PFAS Crisis

Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned

AWT (Association of Water Technologies)

Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses

Submit a Show Idea

The Rising Tide Mastermind

351 Maximizing Water's Potential: Tech and Water Treaters in Perfect Harmony

Water You Know with James McDonald

Question: How much heat energy does it take to heat 1 pound of liquid water by 1 degree Fahrenheit?

Events for Water Professionals

Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

Industrial water professionals sit at the intersection of risk, regulation, and community trust. In this episode, Dr. Annette Davison ("the water risk doctor") joins Trace Blackmore to show how disciplined governance, clear supply chain thinking, and community engagement can turn fragmented water systems into coherent, defensible risk management frameworks.

Water risk from source to customer

Annette starts with a simple question most customers never ask: "Where's your water coming from?" She walks through a conceptual supply chain from source to end point—collection, transfer, treatment, distribution, and customers—then layers governance on top. Who holds custody at each handover point? Are water quality objectives clearly defined and documented? What happens when something "stuffs up," and how is that communicated downstream? For leaders, it's a practical reminder that risk isn't just about treatment performance; it's about clearly assigned responsibilities along the entire chain.

Governance, ISO 31000, and the Water31K framework

Drawing on her background in microbial ecology and environmental law, Annette explains why "you can't do a good risk assessment unless you've got the context right." She describes how ISO 31000 inspired the Water31K framework—an approach that is jurisdictionally agnostic and capable of spanning drinking water, recycled water, and recreational water guidelines. Using Water31K, her team walks into any jurisdiction and systematically maps stakeholders, legal and formal requirements, reporting lines, and internal obligations so utilities can see their governance landscape clearly before they start scoring risk.

Critical control points, AI, and learning from incidents

Critical control points may have started in the food industry, but Annette shows how they can be sharpened for water. Her test— "would a computer understand this?"—forces teams to close logical gaps and define thresholds and responses precisely enough to be automated. She also explores how AI and "agents as a service" could help analyze incident data, while warning that AI is useless if utilities haven't done the basics: monitoring the right things, at the right place, at the right time, with a firm grasp of supply chain risk. Her mantra: never waste a good incident; dissect it and make sure it doesn't happen again.

Regulations, public–private contracts, and community projects

Using Australia as an example, Annette unpacks the complexity of layered laws—Commonwealth, state, local—and the different regimes governing public, metro, and private utilities. She shares a five-part checklist for public–private contracts (quantity, quality, maintenance, ownership, operations) and explains how weak agreements can undermine water quality objectives and monitoring. In parallel, she talks about social initiatives like One Street and One Creek, community-led work on Rocky Creek, and bringing STEAM (not just STEM) into high schools so the next generation sees water as a diverse, creative career path.

Strong water risk governance isn't just about compliance; it's about making better decisions for customers and communities over decades. This conversation gives leaders language, frameworks, and examples they can use to tighten their own systems and engage people beyond the plant fence.

Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!

Timestamps

02:15 — Trace reflects on the end of 2025, recap planning, and how goal setting shapes a stronger 2026 for sales and learning.

11:12 — Introducing lab partner Dr. Annette Davison and her diverse day-to-day across mediation workshops, field work, and high school outreach.

12:10 — The Risk Edge Group mission: protecting people, processes, and the planet from contaminated water with documents, templates, tools, and audits.

13:14 — "Incidents Online" as a free learning resource and how sharing real events helps others protect themselves.

14:10 — Becoming Australian Water Association's Water Professional of the Year and launching the One Street and One Creek social initiatives.

15:29 — From microbial ecology and contaminated sites to environmental law and a career focused on water quality governance.

19:47 — Training as a core "case study": lighting up operators and directors by finally explaining the "why" behind procedures and funding.

22:00 — Walking the water supply chain from source to end point and identifying governance handover points and quality objectives.

24:22 — Strategy-to-operations workflow: from planning and design to commissioning and operations, and why design must serve operators.

24:45 — Critical control points, space diarrhoea origin-story, and the discipline of defining CCPs so clearly "a computer would understand."

30:30 — How Water31K creates a common language for teasing out complex legal and regulatory structures across jurisdictions.

33:03 — The multi-layered Australian governance example: Commonwealth guidelines, state acts, and differing regimes for local, metro, and private utilities.

36:23 — Rocky Creek and the Karingai "Kraken" network: turning an unloved creek into a pilot for community care and data-driven education.

38:19 — onestreet.earth, mobilising your community, and building a playbook so others can replicate a "One Creek" model.

39:21 — STEAM power in schools: bringing science, technology, engineering, art, and maths together to improve water communication.

42:01 — Public vs private utilities, the Water Industry Competition Act, nimble private operators, and the five-part contract checklist.

44:39 — Emerging hazards (microplastics, PFAS) and the reminder not to take our eyes off the basics while we monitor new risks.

46:19 — Annette's core message: we've got to love water and help customers understand what it takes to keep it safe and reliable.

Quotes

"You can't do a good risk assessment unless you've got the context right."

"Where's your water coming from? How do you collect it? How do you transfer it to where it needs to go to? How do you treat it?"

"We now just keep asking ourselves the same question, will the computer understand this?"

"AI's not going to help us until we get the right inputs to AI. Let's get the basics right first."

"We've got to love water. We've got to make sure that people are aware of water, not only the technocrats, but also the people who are using it."

Connect with Annette Davison

Email: [email protected]

Website: https://www.riskedge.com.au/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annettedavison/

Guest Resources Mentioned

The Risk Edge Group – Water31K Framework & Services

Incidents Online (Risk Edge)

Risk Edge Training (e.g., CCP and Governance Courses)

Ku-ring-gai Community Rotary Network ("the Kraken")

Australian Drinking Water Guidelines (ADWG)

WHO Guidelines for Drinking-water Quality

The Overstory – Richard Powers

The Three-Body Problem – Cixin Liu

The Covenant of Water – Abraham Verghese

Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned

AWT (Association of Water Technologies)

Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses

Submit a Show Idea

The Rising Tide Mastermind

2025 Events for Water Professionals

Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

Entamoeba histolytica nearly ended Ron Blutrich's scientific career. Instead, it pushed him to rethink how we protect people in multi-family buildings, senior facilities, and dense urban centers from invisible microbiological risks in their drinking water. In this episode, he joins host Trace Blackmore to unpack what whole-building UV can (and can't) do for Legionella, biofilm, and real-world water safety.

When One Bad Cup of Water Redefines a Career

In the middle of his PhD in molecular genetics, Ron drank from an under-sink reverse osmosis tap at an Airbnb and contracted Entamoeba histolytica. The infection triggered more than three years of severe gastrointestinal symptoms and a 100-pound weight loss, despite being "clinically cured." That experience—and the lack of clear answers—led him to dig into how governments, utilities, and buildings actually manage microbiological risk in water. He discovered that even in urban centers, there is "a lot left to be desired" in monitoring, guidelines, and the epidemiology of waterborne disease.

UV at the Point of Entry: Why Medium Pressure Matters

Ron explains why he chose UV as the primary disinfection tool for CLEAR's whole-building solutions. He contrasts conventional filters (carbon, RO, media) that remove contaminants but do not kill biology with UV systems that directly target DNA and other cellular structures. He walks through the differences between low-pressure and medium-pressure UV, including temperature independence for hot water recirculation and the broader wavelength spectrum that can damage DNA, proteins, membranes, and even DNA repair enzymes. That same technology is being used for multicellular control in marine environments, ballast water, and mollusk control, and Ron argues it is uniquely suited to domestic hot water systems facing Legionella and biofilm.

Legionella, Biofilm, and the Limits of "Good Enough"

Drawing from CLEAR's field work, Ron describes how often Legionella shows up in single homes, condos, and new buildings, and how standard practices typically focus on remediation and short-term clearance instead of long-term prevention. He highlights the gap between ASHRAE 188's recommendations for hot water temperatures and real constraints in senior housing, where anti-scalding concerns keep tanks too cool to reliably control Legionella. He also shares stories of property managers and public agencies reluctant to test because they lack cost-effective treatment options or don't want to confront what the data might show.

Scaling UV from Towers to Single Homes

Ron walks through why conventional media and RO systems don't scale well to large towers—footprint, cost, and pressure loss—and how CLEAR instead installs inline UV systems at the point of entry. These systems can handle up to roughly 2,000 gallons per minute, require minimal head loss, and are designed as a single point of installation and service. From there, he explains how his team layered on monitoring and a tenant-facing dashboard so that properties can see UV dose, transmittance, and flow in real time, and service can be triggered based on performance instead of fixed schedules. He also discusses emerging opportunities in UV LEDs and next-generation media that could make fully comprehensive point-of-entry treatment feasible in more buildings.

For leaders responsible for building portfolios, senior living, or high-density residential properties, this conversation offers a rigorous look at what it really takes to move from "we hope the water is fine" to a defensible, data-backed stance on microbiological safety.

Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!

Timestamps

04:59 - Trace talks about skipping turkey and ham this year and explains his usual turkey-stock "ice cube" tradition

13:59 - Trace introduces today's lab partner, Ron Blutrich of Clear Inc., and sets up the UV-in-buildings topic

13:03 – Events page shout out

10:57 - Water You Know with James McDonald

16:21 – Drinking from an under-sink RO line at an Airbnb, contracting Entamoeba Histolytica

19:15 - Why unmaintained RO and carbon filters can increase microbiological risk

23:27 - UV to keep post-UV systems cleaner

34:51 – Installation

40:23 – Cyanotoxins, Great Lakes algal blooms, and using medium-pressure UV to denature toxins, not just microbes

43:31 – Ron's current habits

48:08 – Future Opportunities: UV LEDs

49:04 – Multi-spectral UV LED arrays

Quotes

"And what I learned really changed my life, because what I understood is that even in urban settings, not just in remote communities, there's a lot left to be desired when it comes to water quality, water quality treatment, guidelines, monitoring" - Ron Blutrich

"I think that in general, we need to understand with our eyes open exactly what it is that we do when we treat." - Ron Blutrich

"So generally, there's a lot left to be desired in terms of what we're trying to do for Legionella. It turns out that Legionella is extremely susceptible to UV. Legionella can be reduced almost 6 logs with most conventional UV systems" - Ron Blutrich

"So, at this point, our UV systems, it's an inline system. It's basically a section of pipe that happens to disinfect the water going through it. It's a single point of installation, a single point of service. There's no head loss, there's no pressure loss" - Ron Blutrich

Connect with Ron Blutrich

Email: [email protected]

Website: Clear - UV Treated Purified Water at Point of Entry

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ron-blutrich-50262b2a3/

Guest Resources Mentioned

ORIGINS OF ORDER: Self-Organization and Selection in Evolution by Stuart Kauffman

Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space by Carl Sagan

Clear Inc – Whole-Building UV Water Purification

Entamoeba histolytica Infection

CDC Household Water Treatment

EPA Guidance Manual: Filtration and Disinfection Requirements

WQA Guidance for Sanitizing Residential Treatment Systems

Application of Ultraviolet Light-Emitting Diodes (UV-LED) to Full-Scale Drinking-Water Disinfection

Wilderness Medical Society Clinical Practice Guidelines on Water Treatment for Wilderness, International Travel, and Austere Situations

Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned

AWT (Association of Water Technologies)

Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses

Submit a Show Idea

The Rising Tide Mastermind

Water You Know with James

Question: What is the interaction called when chemicals react on a mole-to-mole basis that could possibly be considered the opposite of the Threshold Effect?

Events for Water Professionals

Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

What happens when you build a company around one niche, listen obsessively to customers, and never stop improving?

In this episode, host Trace Blackmore finally sits down for a full-length conversation with Frank Lecrone, Founder, President, and CEO of AquaPhoenix Scientific. What started in a small 60' x 60' space in Hanover, Pennsylvania, with three employees, maxed-out credit cards, and endless Staples runs has grown into a 300+-person organization serving industrial water professionals around the world.

Frank shares how AquaPhoenix became "the booth everyone wants to be next to" at AWT, why they built their entire business around industrial water treatment instead of trying to be everything to everyone, and how a simple continuous improvement system now generates hundreds of ideas a year from frontline team members. He also pulls back the curtain on acquisitions and private equity, explaining EBITDA in plain language, how to think about "add-backs," and what owners should understand long before they think about selling.

Whether you're leading a growing company, running a route, or thinking about your own "second chapter," this conversation is a masterclass in culture, courage, and caring deeply about the people you serve.

Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!

Timestamps

02:20 - Trace Blackmore shares a recap from the recent 2025 AWT Conference, The Hang, and a Blood Donation Story

14:02 - Water You Know with James McDonald

15:20 - Upcoming Conference for Water Professionals

18:16 – Introduction of Frank Lecrone, CEO of AquaPhoenix Scientific (eight years in the making)

24:52 – Why Hanover?

26:59 – Supporting AWT

37:38 – Color-coded caps & QR Codes

42:30 – Learning from mistakes

45:31 – Core Values

48:26 – Acquisitions and Culture

1:03:32 – Valuations and EBITDA

Quotes

"We didn't grow by doing everything for everyone. We grew by doing exactly what one market needed and wanted—and then doing it better every year."

"The lack of information is almost always interpreted negatively. That's why you have to over-communicate, especially during acquisitions."

"EBITDA equals freedom. The more EBITDA you have, the less anybody can tell you what to do with your own company."

"We're not perfect. We screw things up like everyone else—but we fix it, and we fix it quickly, and we make doing business with us as easy as possible."

"I don't want to be the smartest person in the room. I want great people around me, giving ideas and pushing things forward, so I'm not the bottleneck."

"Business is like standing in a bathtub while the water rises. It feels fine until it reaches your mouth. The trick is noticing when it's at your knees and fixing the bottleneck then."

"We give a darn. We have 'GAS'—Give a #$%@—and if we can make it right and do it better, we absolutely will."

Connect with Frank Lecrone

Email: [email protected]

Website: Water Quality Testing Products | AquaPhoenix Scientific

LinkedIn: Frank Lecrone | LinkedIn

Guest Resources Mentioned

AquaPhoenix Scientific

Aliquot – AquaPhoenix's Water Management Software

QR-coded Custom Test Kits (AquaPhoenix EndPoint® ID)

Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned

AWT (Association of Water Technologies)

Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses

Submit a Show Idea

The Rising Tide Mastermind

American Red Cross

Water You Know with James McDonald

Question: What industrial water treatment word is derived from the Greek word meaning "claw?"

2025 Events for Water Professionals

Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

"The More You Know" - Robin Deal

A million-gallon-a-day perspective, distilled into actionable steps. Robin Deal, AquaPure Product Manager at Hubbard-Hall unpacks how seasoned pros can squeeze more performance—and less sludge—out of industrial wastewater systems without compromising compliance or plant uptime.

From "clear water in a jar" to stable discharge in the field

Robin details a practical jar-testing workflow: start from upstream processes, target pH using hydroxide/sulfide solubility curves, choose the right coagulant (aluminum, iron, calcium, lanthanum, or organics), and validate against metals/COD/BOD/phosphorus before scaling. The test bench isn't the finish line; it's the feasibility gate when you're treating 150,000+ gpd.

Lean wastewater: cost center or controllable system?

Commodity choices (lime, alum, ferric) can generate 70–85% more sludge than optimized blends—driving hazardous waste hauling, clogging lines, and shortening pump life. Robin reframes the "penny-per-pound" price war into a total-system economics conversation: sludge recyclability, maintenance cycles, and realistic break-even targets.

PFAS: remove now, plan to destroy

For hex-chrome platers and other industrial dischargers, Robin shares near-term and emerging options: carbon filtration for immediate removal, evaporation/condensation where capital exists, and destruction pathways under evaluation—advanced oxidation, electrochemical oxidation, "thermobotic agglomeration," and ball milling—with an eye on evolving limits and cost realities.

One Water thinking for manufacturers

"Water is water." Robin introduces the One Water mindset for plant leaders: tighten internal loops, reduce community draw and discharge impact, and align non-contact, potable, and wastewater under one stewardship model. It's not a club—it's a decision framework that's already influencing global brands and drought-stressed regions.

Treat each round of testing as a hypothesis check, each chemical as a system lever, and each gallon as a shared resource. That's how leaders turn compliance into predictable results.

Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!

Timestamps

16:45 - Trace Blackmore shares insights on current industry events, an upcoming conference, the "magic button" idea for user-friendly wastewater control and announces The Hang to build community engagement

17:50 - Water You Know with James McDonald

23:04 - Interview begins: Robin Deal introduced as AquaPure Product Manager, origin story and family context

28:12 - First Jar Test Story

32:17 - Jar testing Workflow

42:34 - One Water concept

54:12 - Regulations

Quotes

"Just say yes to the job."

"Lime is not a lean."

"Best available technology does not mean best economic."

"So just deep breath, stay calm and do the best that we can do and wait for those regulations to come out because they are coming"

"Turn off the water in the polymer tank."

Connect with Robin Deal

Email: [email protected]

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/robin-deal

https://www.linkedin.com/company/hubbard-hall-inc./

Guest Resources Mentioned

The Wandering Inn: Book One in The Wandering Inn Series by pirateaba

Water Reuse Organization

American Water Works Association

Water Environment Federation

Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned

AWT (Association of Water Technologies)

Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses

Submit a Show Idea

The Rising Tide Mastermind

Start With Why Simon Sinek TedTalk

The 6 Types of Working Genius: A Better Way to Understand Your Gifts, Your Frustrations, and Your Team by Patrick M. Lencioni

James McDonald's Be Like Water Series

Drop by Drop: Articles on Industrial Water Treatment by James McDonald

Water You Know with James McDonald

Question: What is the device called that is installed on the effluent line of an ion exchange unit to prevent resin from ending up downstream where it doesn't belong?

2025 Events for Water Professionals

Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

Get stuck in – Michael Bourgeois, CWT

How do standards get written in ways that working water treaters can actually meet? In this conversation, AWT Past President, current Related Trade Organization (RTO) Committee Chair, and Chemco Products Company Operations Manager, Michael Bourgeois CWT, explains how AWT's liaisons collaborate with peer organizations, so guidance reflects field reality—operations, risk, and achievable compliance.

From Field Bags to Board Rooms: Why RTOs Matter

Bourgeois outlines the purpose of AWT's RTO structure: volunteer liaisons track and influence work at groups whose missions overlap with industrial water—CTI, ABMA, ASHRAE, AWWA, ASHE, and others. The aim is simple and practical: make sure member voices are heard so guidance advances health outcomes (e.g., Legionella control) and day-to-day feasibility for service providers and suppliers.

Turning Reaction into Proaction

Historically, the industry learned about new rules after they landed. Bourgeois details how AWT is shifting to co-authoring cooling-water guidelines with CTI and re-engaging ABMA, so boiler-water limits and methods reflect current technologies and operations. The model: clarify shared goals, contribute content expertise, and formalize collaboration so members get usable documents at member pricing.

Concrete Moves: Boiler Water, Healthcare, and More

Examples include AWT's role on ABMA's Boiler Expo steering committee (with a focused water-treatment training block) and early conversations with ASHE on pathogen control in building and healthcare water systems. He describes how liaisons feed updates into a formal committee cadence, so the AWT Board and members see progress—not just headlines.

When working professionals help write the playbook, outcomes improve clients, operators, and public health—and members stop "reacting" to standards they had no hand in shaping.

Listen to the full conversation above. Explore related episodes below.

Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!

Timestamps

00:02:28 - Trace Blackmore shares his AWT excitement & community shout-outs

00:05:16 - Water You Know with James McDonald

00:06:44 - The magic of the Scaling Up buttons (why & how to use them)

00:20:25 - North Metal Quarterly Magazine (Grab physical copy by visiting Booth 212)

00:27:00 - Interview starts: Mike Bourgeois (Chemco; AWT Past President; RTO Chair)

00:33:58 - What is the RTO Committee and why it exists

00:36:31 - The 10 formal collaborators + 4–6 informal

00:36:43 - AWWA/ASDWA (Joe Hannigan); Premise plumbing link

00:38:19 - ASHE (healthcare engineering) early wins (Reid Hutchinson)

00:38:47 - ABMA (boilers) momentum (Steve Jobin) + Women of Boilers

00:40:28 - CTI (Mike); CDC (Patsy Root); WEF (Brian Liotta)

00:40:46 - AMPP (formerly NACE) (Jay Farmerie); WQA (Chuck Hamrick)

00:41:19 - ASHRAE (Bill Pearson) & the impact on Std 188

00:45:26 - Principle: Be proactive so standards are achievable for members

00:47:34 - Boiler Expo: half-day on water treatment (economics, pretreatment, failures, regs)

00:50:56 - Where to learn about RTO work

00:54:19 - Volunteers needed: attributes of great liaisons

00:58:48 - Breakthrough: ABMA boiler water guideline refresh (toward ASME alignment)

01:01:02 - Potential collaboration with ASHE on pathogen control guidance

01:01:39 - What Mike's most excited to see at the Broadmoor

01:02:22 - Mike's session: new OSHA walk-around rules

01:02:51 - Theme of the conversation: "Get stuck in" (join committees)

Quotes

"The button is magic—it breaks the ice for you and starts real conversations."

"Talk to every single booth. A year from now, you'll remember exactly who can help."

"RTO stands for Related Trade Organization—our way to shape the standards that shape us."

"Why write a standard no one can achieve? AWT's role is to make it achievable."

"If you want to help AWT, get stuck in. Volunteer. It pays back 10 to 100-fold."

"AWT's RTO liaisons keep members' interests represented before rules and guidelines are finalized—so they're practical and achievable."

"Look for committees aligned with your strengths."

Connect with Michael Bourgeois

Email: [email protected]

Website: Home | Chemco Products Company

LinkedIn: Michael Bourgeois, CWT | LinkedIn

https://www.linkedin.com/company/chemco-products-company/

Guest Resources Mentioned

ABMA's Boiler Water Quality Requirements and Associated Steam Quality for Industrial/Commercial and Institutional Boilers

Atlas Shrugged (Centennial Ed.) Hardcover – April 21, 2005 by Ayn Rand

AWT Committee

AWT Get Involved

Cancer Ward: A Novel (FSG Classics) Paperback – April 14, 2015 by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (Author)

Cooling Technology Institute (CTI)

Fossil Future: Why Global Human Flourishing Requires More Oil, Coal, and Natural Gas--Not Less Hardcover – by Alex Epstein

Signature in the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design Paperback – Illustrated, June 22, 2010 by Stephen C. Meyer

WTG-126: The Use of Non-Oxidizing Biocides in Cooling Water Systems

Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned

380 The WOW Effect: Women Leading Transformation in the Water Industry

447 Unlocking Team Potential with Culture Index with Randi Fargen

ASHE's "Water Management in Health Care Facilities: Complying with ASHRAE Standard 188"

ASPE's Engineering Methodologies to Reduce the Risk of Legionella in Premise Plumbing Systems

ASSE 12080 Training & Certification, Get certified to the ASSE/IAPMO/ANSI 12080 Standard: Professional Qualifications Standard for Legionella Water Safety and Management Personnel

AWT (Association of Water Technologies)

AWT's Legionella 2019: A Position Statement and Guidance Document

North Metal & Chemical Co Quarterly Magazine Issue 3 -page 8 for Trace Blackmore Story

Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses

Start with Why Simon Sinek - TedTalk

Submit a Show Idea

The 6 Types of Working Genius

The Rising Tide Mastermind

Water You Know with James

Questions: What do you call the physical property of matter that is defined as the amount of heat energy required to raise the temperature of a unit mass of a substance by one degree?

2025 Events for Water Professionals

Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

Holidays don't usually line up with release day—but this year they did. In this Halloween special, Trace uses the horror-movie trope of the "scary boiler room" to deliver practical, field-tested reminders for safer sampling, clearer thinking, and better decisions in high-heat, low-light spaces.

Boiler Rooms, Myths, and Real Risks

From Nightmare on Elm Street to Tower of Terror, pop culture loves dim steam, tight corridors, and clangy pipe-labyrinths. Trace contrasts that imagery with what matters to pros: light, ventilation, a stable work surface, and time for observation. He urges listeners to advocate for basics—task lighting, a table, and smarter workflow—so test results are usable, repeatable, and defensible.

Sampling That Won't Scare Your Data

Sampling isn't the job—thinking is. Trace reviews essentials: collect safely (sample coolers when available), fill bottles with no headspace, cool samples to about "hand-holdable" (~100°F) before running tests, and remember temperature and prep sensitivities—especially sulfite tests that use starch. Poor cooling "cooks the potatoes," skewing readings. Tie every test to a hypothesis about system behavior; use results to prove or disprove what you think is happening.

Observation > Automation

Don't just grab a bottle and walk. Log pressures and temperatures (DA/FT), verify blowdown practices (including surface blow and any cooling devices), check the sample cooler, and review boiler logs. Pair disciplined observation with testing so numbers have context.

Stretch Past the "Butterfly Line"

Halloween also prompts a leadership challenge: if you haven't felt "butterflies" lately, are you still stretching? Trace revisits public-speaking growth, previews his AWT presentations (presenting craft, Start With Why, Working Genius, and processes), and encourages pros to reframe nerves as excitement on the way to competence.

Make the boiler room less cinematic and more professional. Better lighting, better setup, and hypothesis-driven testing produce better calls—and better outcomes for customers.

Listen to the full conversation above. Explore related episodes below. Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!

Timestamps

07:05 - Why Hollywood loves boiler rooms

10:10 — Disney's Tower of Terror queue through a "boiler room" and hidden Mickeys

13:31 – Don't just sample – Observe

15:02 - Safety first: sample coolers when available; protect yourself from burns

35:21 - Water You Know with James McDonald

47:05 – Halloween Throwback

Connect with Scaling UP! H2O

Website: www.scalinguph2o.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/scalinguph2o/

YouTube: Scaling Up! H2O Podcast - YouTube

Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned

AWT (Association of Water Technologies)

Annual Convention and Exposition 2025

Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses

Submit a Show Idea

Start with Why Ted Talk

The Rising Tide Mastermind

The Hang

Ep 166 The One Where We Celebrate Halloween

Ep 325 Rising Together: Conquering Challenges through Collective Support

Ep 427 July 4th! Entrepreneurship, Water Wells, and the Spirit of Liberty

Water You Know with James McDonald

Question: What is the pressure of a fluid called that's measured relative to "atmospheric" pressure?

2025 Events for Water Professionals

Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

Hiring in industrial water is slow, specialized, and expensive to get wrong. In this conversation, executive advisor Randi Fargen explains how a two-question, 5–7 minute Culture Index survey becomes an ongoing management and coaching system—not just a hiring screen—so owners cut turnover risk, speed onboarding, and improve day-to-day communication.

From "assessment fatigue" to a usable language

Most teams dread long assessments. This survey takes minutes and measures four primary traits—autonomy, sociability, pace/patience, conformity—plus three sub-traits (logic, ingenuity, mental stamina). Leaders get a shared vocabulary for why projects stall, what information different people need, and where the team is over-weighted in "gas" (vision/growth) or "brake" (quality/process).

Objective data where interviews fail

Resumes can be embellished, references are curated, and interviews are where candidates most modify behavior. The survey provides objective, EEOC-compliant data to align role demands with how a person is wired—a first pass for "right person, right seat," followed by skills and experience checks. Trace shares a driver-hire example where data prevented a costly misfit and made the interview process smoother and more targeted.

Turnover, onboarding load, and the health check

Randi highlights research she cites with clients: 66% of employees have accepted roles they knew weren't a fit, and 50% of those left within six months—burning cash and team morale. The fix isn't one-and-done. Teams re-survey every 3–6 months to read dynamic "job behavior" shifts, diagnose disconnects early, and adjust coaching, workload, or process before problems harden.

Coaching at scale, not weaponization

Culture Index works best when deployed top-down and organization-wide (not just managers). Teams adopt simple practices—e.g., bringing pattern cards to meetings or adding patterns to email signatures—to reduce friction. A guardrail: never "weaponize the dots." Use the data to maximize strengths and support challenges; never to excuse behavior or limit someone's potential.

Industry relevance and next steps

Because industrial water roles are niche and ramp time is long, using objective behavioral data helps retain talent you've already invested in. Randi closes with a free team diagnostic offer for companies that want to "test drive" the approach and leave with actionable insights—regardless of whether they proceed further.

Listen to the full conversation above. Explore related episodes below. Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!

Timestamps

02:01 - Trace Blackmore shares a Legionella Awareness Month recap (most listened yet, high sharing), shout-outs to some guests, note that the CDC recognized Legionella Awareness Month, the origin story from 2020 lockdowns, a call to keep challenging what we "know"

07:52 - Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals

12:51 - Interview with Randi Fargen, Executive Advisor with Culture Index

13:27 - Randi's self-intro: role and how she helps businesses ("right people, right seats")

17:02 – Hiring Win; interviews get sharper when profiles guide questions

22:13 – Cost of Turnover

33:42 - What's measured: four primary traits (A/B/C/D) + three sub-traits (logic/ingenuity/stamina)

41:06 - Gas vs. brake; turning productive tension into quality control

52:51 - Guardrail: never "weaponize the dots"; use data to support, not to excuse or exclude

01:12:21 - Water You Know with James McDonald

Quotes

"Fully exploited strengths are a far greater value than marginally improved weaknesses."

"Statistically speaking, 98% of the population has less autonomy than you do."

"The second this is weaponized; the program is dead within your organization."

"This isn't something, it's not a magic wand, it's not a magic bullet… This is a marathon, not a sprint."

Connect with Randi Fargen

Phone: 1(303) 242 0346

Email: [email protected]

Website: www.cultureindex.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/randi-fargen/

Guest Resources Mentioned

Culture Index Program

Randi Fargen (Executive Advisor) Free Team Diagnostic

Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink

How Not to Age: The Scientific Approach to Getting Healthier as You Get Older by Michael Greger

Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned

AWT (Association of Water Technologies)

Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses

Submit a Show Idea

The Rising Tide Mastermind

446 Leveraging the Culture Index for Business Success with Danielle Scimeca and Conor Parrish

Water You Know with James McDonald

Question: What is the molar mass of water?

2025 Events for Water Professionals

Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

How do you make "right person, right seat" a repeatable system—not a hope?

Fact Water Co's Danielle Scimeca (President) and returning guest Conor Parrish (Chief Growth Officer) share how the Culture Index became a decisive tool for coaching, hiring, and a company-wide restructure. If you lead field service, customer service, or operations in industrial water, this conversation offers practical patterns you can apply the next time a role feels misaligned or a 1:1 stall on surface-level updates.

From intuition to instrumentation

Trace opens with the origin story and quickly moves to why Danielle and Conor adopted the Culture Index. Conor outlines the survey's core traits (A, B, C, D), EU (energy units), logic, and ingenuity—and how those readings map to daily work. The team now enters 1:1s with data, not guesswork, and uses pattern shifts (e.g., crossing the bell-curve center line) as objective prompts to discuss burnout risk, disengagement, or role fit.

Coaching that respects how people actually work

Quarterly surveys provide a shared language for conflict and pace. Danielle and Conor show how "high-D vs. low-D" disagreements de-escalate when both sides name the pattern and adjust the level of detail or speed. The same framework helps leaders spot "quiet quitting" signals (e.g., EU changes) early, address them with empathy, and—when necessary—make seat changes with clarity.

Hiring with a C-Job—and holding the line

For open roles, they build a "C-job" (ideal pattern) and filter applicants by percentage match before reading résumés. That slows the front end but saves cycles by preventing mis-fit first interviews, reduces turnover, and improves team performance. The hardest lesson? When they ignored the pattern and hired outside the profile, they regretted it.

Restructure at scale—faster, with fewer re-hires

Armed with data, Fact Water accelerated a difficult restructure (significant field and customer-service turnover) and refilled seats against the right patterns. Outcomes included better alignment, happier team members, and fewer escalations. The same insights even improved communication at home—proof the temperament model applies beyond work.

Tools don't lead—leaders do. The Culture Index gave Danielle and Conor the transparency and conviction to act sooner and coach smarter.

Listen to the full conversation above. Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!

Timestamps

02:24 - Trace Blackmore shares Industrial Water Week recap & #IWW25 highlights

13:37 - Water You Know with James McDonald

14:53 - Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals

21:22 – Interview starts: Danielle Scimeca & Conor Parrish of Fact Water Co

24:46 – Why Culture Index

26:16 - Culture Index Overview

36:11 – Coaching Use: Data-Drive 1:1s and pattern shifts

44:36 – Hiring Use: C-Job Profiles

47:49 – Slower Hiring vs. Lower Turnover: lessons learned

53:46 – Real Example: High- D vs. Low-D communication conflict

Quotes

Conor Parrish: "High level culture index is a tool that we use. It starts with the culture index survey."

Danielle Scimeca: "The program forces you to make tough decisions… you deserve to be in a job that you find fulfilling."

Conor Parrish: "HR isn't doing first interviews with 30 people—they're doing first interviews with three to five."

Conor Parrish: "There's so much more to it the more you go… I'm learning something new every day"

Danielle Scimeca: "If you're not ready to make changes, it might not be the right time to do it."

Connect with Conor Parrish

Email: [email protected]

Website: https://www.factwaterco.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/conor-parrish-cwt-15208251/

Connect with Danielle Scimeca

Email: [email protected]

Website: https://www.factwaterco.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielle-scimeca-esq-519604279/

Guest Resources Mentioned

Randi Fargen (Executive Advisor)

Culture Index Program

Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned

AWT (Association of Water Technologies)

AWT 2025 Convention and Exposition

AWT 2025 Business Owners Meeting

AWT 2025 Golf Tournament

008 The One with Conor Parrish

186 The One where Conor Parrish Interviews Me, Part 1

187 The One where Conor Parrish Interviews Me, Part 2

Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses

Submit a Show Idea

The Rising Tide Mastermind

The Hang (November 20, 2025 - 6 PM Eastern Time)

Water You Know with James McDonald

Question: What do we call the liquid formed after steam does its work and has cooled below its dew point?

2025 Events for Water Professionals

Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.