Scaling UP! H2O

Legionella remains one of the most complex challenges for water professionals worldwide. How do we balance effective monitoring with realistic costs—and which strategies deliver true public health impact? In this episode, Trace Blackmore welcomes Dr. Vincenzo Romano Spica, Head Public Health University of Rome "Foro Italico to explore new insights from his comparative research on Legionella control.

Reframing Legionella Risk

Dr. Spica explains why public health data increasingly points to Legionella pneumophila—not all Legionella species—as the primary concern for human health. He shares how pan-European data modeling and peer-reviewed studies demonstrate that broad-spectrum monitoring may overburden systems without delivering proportional safety gains.

Cost-Benefit Models and Sustainability

Water professionals know that testing and compliance require resources. Dr. Spica discusses cost-benefit analysis frameworks that help decision-makers evaluate where investments deliver the greatest reduction in risk. He also highlights the sustainability implications of over-testing, from lab resources to environmental waste streams.

European Regulations and Legal Liability

The conversation also explores the European Drinking Water Directive 2020/2184, national approaches to Legionella, and how liability shifts when contamination is detected. Dr. Spica's insights illuminate what building owners, operators, and regulators must weigh as they update management plans.

Conclusion

For engineers, operators, and technical managers, this episode provides a clear framework for thinking about Legionella beyond routine testing. It's about focusing on the pathogen that truly drives disease outcomes, aligning regulatory strategy with science, and applying resources where they matter most.

Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!

Timestamps

02:24 - Trace opens the episode, welcoming listeners to Legionella Awareness Month and framing the call to action

05:37 - Water You Know with James McDonald

10:04 - Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals

14:06 - Trace introduces Dr. Vincenzo Romano Spica, Head of Public Health at the University of Rome Foro Italico

17:22 - Dr. Spica outlines why Legionella pneumophila is the main pathogen of concern in Europe

35:04 - Dr. Spica explains Disability Adjusted Life Years (DALYs) as a measure of public health burden

44:08 - Monitoring strategies and how different culture methods affect outcomes

46:16 - The role of water temperature in Legionella proliferation

Quotes

"Not all Legionella are equal—public health data shows us it's Legionella pneumophila that drives the real risk."

"Testing everything may look safer on paper, but in practice, it diverts resources from where they can have the greatest impact."

"Risk management should not be a checklist; it should be a strategic allocation of resources aligned with outcomes."

"European data models show that a targeted approach can deliver both better safety and greater sustainability."

Connect with Dr. Vincenzo Romano Spica

Phone: +39.06.36733247

Email: [email protected]

LinkedIn: vincenzo romano spica | LinkedIn

Guest Resources Mentioned

Legionnaires' Disease Surveillance and Public Health Policies in Italy: A Mathematical Model for Assessing Prevention Strategies by Dr. Spica et. al

Alessando Cassini's Burden of Infectious Diseases in Europe methodological challenges and opportunities for public health policy

NLM's Impact of infectious diseases on population health using incidence-based disability-adjusted life years (DALYs): results from the Burden of Communicable Diseases in Europe study, European Union and European Economic Area countries, 2009 to 2013

Supplemental information: Impact of UAT Diagnostic Methods on Estimates of Legionnaires' disease Caused by non-pneumophila Legionella

Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned

AWT (Association of Water Technologies)

Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses

Submit a Show Idea

Scaling UP! H2O's Legionella Resources Library

434 Encore Interview with Patsy Root

Water You Know with James McDonald

Question: What is it called when a valve is closed at the end of a pipeline system causing a pressure wave to propagate in the pipe and a loud banging sound?

2025 Events for Water Professionals

Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

"Rules written in a panic rarely stand the test of time."

In this encore episode, Trace Blackmore welcomes back Patsy Root, Senior Manager of Government Affairs at IDEXX Water and active member of the AWT Legislative and Regulatory Committee. Patsy brings global data, case studies, and clear recommendations for smarter Legionella regulation — and why a targeted focus on Legionella pneumophila can save both lives and resources.

From Outbreaks to Proactive Policies

Patsy unpacks a central truth: most regulations emerge reactively, often after a high-profile outbreak. Drawing on her research from the U.S., Canada, and Europe, she compares different jurisdictions' approaches — from Quebec's targeted testing mandate to New York City's broader species-based rule — and reveals why some frameworks reduce cases far more effectively than others.

The Case for Targeted Testing

Legionella encompasses around 60 species, but not all carry equal risk. Patsy explains why L. pneumophila — the species most responsible for Legionnaires' disease — demands priority in monitoring and control. Through examples from France, Germany, the UK, and beyond, she demonstrates how focusing on the pathogen itself, rather than all species, leads to measurable public health gains and cost savings.

Educating Lawmakers and Industry

Beyond technical data, Patsy emphasizes the importance of water professionals engaging with legislators. She outlines how clear communication, evidence-based recommendations, and standards like ASHRAE 188 can guide practical, enforceable rules. Her advice balances science with real-world feasibility, helping both regulators and facility managers protect health without unnecessary expense.

This conversation is more than a policy discussion — it's a blueprint for better public health protection through smart, focused water management. Whether you work in compliance, operations, or advocacy, Patsy's insights will equip you to engage in the legislative process with clarity and authority.

Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!

Timestamps

01:52 - Trace opens with Legionella Awareness Month reflections and the importance of challenging industry assumptions

05:38 - Water You Know with James McDonald

07:13 - Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals

09:47 - Introduction to guest Patsy Root, Senior Manager of Government Affairs at IDEXX Water and member of AWT's Legislative & Regulatory Committee.

17:31 - Global comparison of Legionella-related laws and guidelines

27:03 - Understanding Legionella species vs. L. pneumophila

44:42 - Legislative engagement tips for water professionals

Quotes

"The worst time to write a rule is when you're in the middle of a panic."

"Finding Legionella species is not the same risk level as finding L. pneumophila — and the data prove it."

"Keep the hot water hot, keep the cold water cold, keep the water moving, and keep a decent disinfectant."

"Biology fascinates me — the fact that bacteria can signal each other to come join a good spot is both creepy and amazing."

"When lawmakers understand how preventable this disease is, they can become champions for real change."

Connect with Patsy Root

Phone: 207-523-0835

Email: [email protected]

Website: https://www.idexx.com/en/water/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/idexx-laboratories/

Guest Resources Mentioned

CDC Toolkit: Developing a Legionella Water Management Program

IDEXX Legiolert® Testing Method

IDEXX's Why test for Legionella pneumophila to prevent Legionnaires' disease?

Data and Case Study of Effective Legionella Regulations by Patsy Root

NASEM's Management of Legionella in Water Systems (2019)

MD 15161 – 2013 Control of Legionella in Mechanical Systems

Assessment of monitoring approaches to control Legionella pneumophila within a complex cooling tower system by Michele Prevost et al

The Legionella collagen-like protein employs a distinct binding mechanism for the recognition of host glycosaminoglycans by Garnett et al

The 5 bacterial indicators used by WHO were published in 2013 by Dufour et al

The 5 bacterial indicators used by WHO covered by KWR Publication starting on Page 54 – Section 7.4.4.

Canada Legionella bacteria control in federal buildings

Leveraging regulatory monitoring data for quantitative microbial risk assessment of Legionella pneumophila in cooling towers

NYC Data Catalog about Cooling Tower Registrations

NYC Health's Cooling Tower Registration and Maintenance

Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned

AWT (Association of Water Technologies)

AWT's Legislative/Regulatory Committee

Submit a Show Idea

The Rising Tide Mastermind

403 Navigating the New Frontier: Patsy Root on Legionella Legislation

Scaling UP! H2O's Legionella Resources Library

ASHRAE Standard-188-2021, Building Water Management Plans – Summary

Water You Know with James

Question: What is the mass balance around a cooling tower?

2025 Events for Water Professionals

Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

What if preventing Legionella outbreaks wasn't about adding more chemicals, but removing what the bacteria needs to survive? In this episode of Scaling UP! H2O, host Trace Blackmore talks with Dr. David Krause, Certified Industrial Hygienist, toxicologist, and founder of HC3, about his groundbreaking approach — LIDO (Legionella Inhibition by Deoxygenation).

Legionella on the Rise

Dr. Krause has investigated high-profile Legionella outbreaks and seen firsthand how current prevention strategies often fall short. Despite ASHRAE 188 standards, CMS requirements, and increasing water management plan adoption, Legionella cases continue to climb — often due to infrastructure issues, insufficient monitoring, and a lack of evidence-based guidance.

Inside an Outbreak Investigation

From the first call at 4:30 on a Friday to the coordination between local health departments, state agencies, and the CDC, Krause explains the rigorous (and sometimes chaotic) process of pinpointing outbreak sources. He also reveals why public communication can make or break an outbreak response.

Introducing LIDO Technology

Rather than relying solely on chemical disinfection, LIDO uses gas transfer membrane contactors to remove dissolved oxygen from hot water systems. Legionella can't thrive below 0.3 ppm DO — meaning systems treated with LIDO create an inhospitable environment for growth. Krause shares lab results, pilot project findings, and how this approach could extend system life while reducing corrosion and byproducts.

The Bigger Picture

This episode goes beyond technology — it's about rethinking water management, building better outbreak communication, and challenging industry norms. Whether you're a facility manager, water treater, or public health professional, Krause's insights will shift the way you think about Legionella control.

Prevention starts with awareness — and action. Dr. Krause's work shows there's more than one path to safer water systems, and innovation comes from asking better questions.

Listen now to discover how Legionella investigations unfold and how LIDO technology could reshape prevention. Download the free discussion guide located at Connect with the Guest section, and start the conversation with your team.

Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!

Timestamps

02:24 - Trace Blackmore shares an Introduction to Legionella Awareness Month and the value of ANSI/ASHRAE 188, ASSE 12080 certification

08:17 - Water You Know with James McDonald

11:52 - Interview with Dr. David Krause and his background in public health, toxicology, and Legionella Investigations

16:36 - Why cases are rising despite standards, plans, and certifications

21:39 - The significance of Legionella pneumophila serogroup 1 vs. other species

26:38 - Media influence on outbreak perception and the need for accurate communication

31:15 - Business risks of not having a water management plan

41:48 - How LIDO works: removing dissolved oxygen to prevent Legionella growth

48:41 - Current pilot projects and operational considerations

Quotes

"Legionella is an obligate aerobe – without dissolved oxygen, it simply can't grow."

"An ounce of prevention is worth ten pounds of cure when it comes to water management plans."

"Once an outbreak starts, testing becomes your life."

"We have so much information on waterborne pathogens – the challenge is making a habit of learning the next thing."

Connect with Dr. David Krause

Phone: 850-766-1938

Email: [email protected]

Website: http://www.hc3fl.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drdavidkrause/

Guest Resources Mentioned

AIHA – Recognition, Evaluation, and Control of Legionella in Building Water Systems (2nd Edition, 2022)

ACGIH – Bioaerosols: Assessment and Control (Red Book, Updated Edition)

IDSA's 'Increasing Incidence of Legionellosis in the United States, 1990–2005: Changing Epidemiologic Trends'

Legionella and the Role of Dissolved Oxygen in Its Growth and Inhibition: A Review by J. David Krause

Journal of Occupational and Environmental Hygiene Controlling Legionella pneumophila growth in hot water systems by reducing dissolved oxygen levels by J. David Krause

CSTE – National Legionellosis Case Definitions (2020)

LIDO: A Revolutionary Approach to Legionella Management

Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned

AWT (Association of Water Technologies)

Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses

Submit a Show Idea

Scaling UP! H2O's Legionella Resources Library

ASHRAE Standard 188 (Legionellosis: Risk Management for Building Water Systems)

ASHRAE-188-2021-Summary-Technical-Bulletin_01.pdf

Water You Know with James

Question: Despite all the training, engineering controls, policies, regulations, laws, and direction, at the end of the day, who is most responsible for your personal safety?

2025 Events for Water Professionals

Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

"Just because you have a water management plan doesn't mean it's working."

That's the hard truth Matt Freije, founder and CEO of HC Info, delivers in this episode of Scaling UP! H2O. As the architect behind LAMPS — a leading cloud-based platform for water management programs — Matt joins Trace Blackmore to explore the critical evolution of water safety, compliance standards, and real-world implementation challenges facing facilities in 2025.

Beyond the Binder: Water Management Plans That Actually Work

In an era of heightened awareness and shifting regulations, simply checking the compliance box is no longer enough. Matt walks us through the CDC data and ASHRAE findings that make a strong case for active, ongoing water management — not just documentation. Drawing from recent outbreak investigations, he explains why implementation, not content, is often the root failure.

Trace and Matt discuss the widespread misconception that water management plans guarantee zero Legionella. They also address the real barriers preventing facilities from taking action — from budget limitations to internal roadblocks — and what water professionals can do to influence smarter, risk-based decisions.

Regulatory Pressure, AI Integration, and What's Coming Next

With ASHRAE 514, AAMI ST108, and ASSE 12080 gaining ground, the water industry is seeing increased scrutiny, especially in healthcare and hospitality facilities. Matt outlines how these evolving standards are transforming expectations and forcing a shift in accountability.

The conversation takes a forward-looking turn as they explore the power of AI and aggregated analytics to optimize pathogen control. With 10,000 buildings in the LAMPS system, HC Info is preparing to offer data that could shape public health outcomes nationwide — a move that could redefine how we benchmark performance and interpret Legionella test data at scale.

Culture, Purpose, and Long-Term Vision

As a mechanical engineer with an epidemiology background, Matt also reflects on the human side of leadership — from building a values-driven team to embracing his faith as a cornerstone of decision-making. His message for water treaters is clear: "Either do it well or don't do it."

For facilities leaders, his advice is to stop fearing complexity and start leveraging the tools available — because water management done right can improve not just compliance, but health outcomes, asset longevity, and operational resilience.

Conclusion

This episode is a masterclass in how to future-proof your water safety strategy. With actionable insights, emerging technologies, and a clear call to accountability, Matt Freije reminds us that smart water management is both a technical responsibility and a moral imperative.

Listen to the full conversation to understand how new standards, digital tools, and intentional leadership are shaping the future of water safety.

Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!

Timestamps

04:50 – Trace reflects on feedback from listeners who learned the origins of Legionella and how re-telling important stories is essential in water treatment education

06:49 - Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals

12:44 – Water You Know with James McDonald

14:14 – Introduction with Matt Freije returning guest

15:46 – Biggest Challenges in Water Management Plans Today

19:47 – Regulatory Evolution: ASHRAE 514, ASC 12080, and Joint Commission Inspections

44:14 – The Document is Not the Plan: Why Systems Must Be Implemented

48:08 – Impact and Adoption: Why Water Management Plans Truly Matter

Quotes

"Either do it well, or don't do it. A half-hearted water management plan can do more harm than good."

"Most facilities still don't have a water management plan — and many don't even know what one is."

"Just because you had the conversation once doesn't mean it stuck. With Legionella, repeating the important things is critical."

"Analytics should make the problem obvious — you shouldn't need a PhD to interpret what your water data is telling you."

Connect with Matt Freije

Email: [email protected]

Website: Legionella Water Management Plans

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattfreije

Guest Resources Mentioned

HC Info

ASHRAE Standard 188 (Legionellosis: Risk Management for Building Water Systems)

ASSE 12080 Certification: Professional Qualifications for Legionella Water Safety and Management Personnel

Good Energy: The Surprising Connection Between Metabolism and Limitless Health by Casey Means

The Boys in the Boat: Nine Americans and Their Epic Quest for Gold at the 1936 Berlin Olympics by Daniel James Brown

John Adams by David McCullough (Audiobook)

John Adams by David McCullough (Paperback)

Keep Your Love On: Connection Communication and Boundaries by Danny Silk (Paperback)

The Bible (KJV)

Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned

AWT (Association of Water Technologies)

Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses

Submit a Show Idea

The Rising Tide Mastermind

Legionella Resources Library

ANSI/AAMI ST108:2023 Water for the Processing of Medical Services

ASSE 12080 Training & Certification, Get certified to the ASSE/IAPMO/ANSI 12080 Standard: Professional Qualifications Standard for Legionella Water Safety and Management Personnel

CDC's Key Findings: Outbreaks and Water Management Gaps (2015–2019 review of Legionnaires' disease investigations

083 The One About Water Management Plans

431 Legionella Awareness Month Kickoff!

Water You Know with James McDonald

Question: What do we call the formation and subsequent collapse of vapor-filled bubbles in water due to rapid pressure changes?

2025 Events for Water Professionals

Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

Are You Ready to Talk About Legionella?

Every August, we dedicate an entire month to a topic that touches public health, liability, and the core of what water treaters do — yet it's still misunderstood by many: Legionella.

In this episode, Trace Blackmore kicks off Legionella Awareness Month by returning to the basics. Where did Legionella get its name? What makes it dangerous? And why is there still confusion between a water treatment program and a water management plan?

Tracing It Back: History, Misconceptions, and Missed Conversations

Trace opens with the 1976 American Legion outbreak in Philadelphia — the moment the medical and water treatment worlds collided. He explains how the bacteria was identified, how the term Legionella pneumophila came to be, and how Pontiac Fever and Legionnaires' Disease represent two ends of the same pathogenic spectrum.

But more importantly, he challenges us to think critically about the language we use. Saying "Legionella" casually — without understanding whether we're referring to the bacteria, the illness, or the implications of a test result — can lead to major breakdowns in communication between service providers and facility managers.

A Water Treatment Program Is Not a Legionella Plan

Many professionals know how to deliver great chemical treatment. But too often, when a Legionella test comes back positive, the customer assumes the water treater is responsible. This episode explains how that misunderstanding happens—and how to prevent it through proactive, well-framed conversations.

Trace walks through why seasonal testing is the bare minimum, what makes a good water management team, and why documentation and pre-approved action plans are essential for clarity and peace of mind when results come in.

He also introduces tools like the CDC Legionella Toolkit, ASHRAE 188, and ASSE 12080—resources every industrial water professional should know and use.

The Systems at Risk — And Why It's Not Just Cooling Towers

Trace breaks down the environments where Legionella thrives cooling towers, stagnant pipes, dead legs, hot water systems with low temperatures, decorative fountains, humidifiers, and spas. He highlights why biofilm protection matters, why heat isn't always enough, and how mixing valves and plumbing design can support both safety and scald prevention.

You'll hear how real-world scenarios unfold—and how one positive test, without the right planning, can lead to panic, blame, and liability risk for everyone involved.

Legionella isn't just a technical issue — it's a human one. Whether you're in the field, managing accounts, or advising clients, this episode offers practical tools and powerful reminders for having the conversations that count.

The professionals who lead these conversations are the ones building trust, avoiding risk, and elevating the industry.

Listen to the full episode and explore the Legionella Resource Library at Legionella Resources.

Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!

Timestamps

02: 12 – Trace opens the episode with an overview of Legionella Awareness Month

08:47 – Legionella vs. Legionellosis

15:51 – The Miscommunication That Hurts Trust

27:13 – Where Legionella Hides

28:14 – Key Resources

33:22 – Water You Know with James McDonald

34:47– Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals

Quotes

"Cooling towers are guilty until proven innocent — and that's how the industry sees them."

"Legionella is not your responsibility unless you've set the right expectations in writing."

"Don't wait until a test is positive to have the conversation. By then, emotions are already high."

"ASHRAE 188 doesn't prescribe. It describes it. It's up to us to translate it for each system."

"Education isn't just about reading guidelines. It's about knowing how to guide your clients."

Connect with Scaling UP! H2O

Submit a show idea: Submit a Show Idea

LinkedIn: in/traceblackmore/

YouTube: @ScalingUpH2O Click HERE to Download Episode's Discussion Guide

Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned

AWT (Association of Water Technologies)

Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses

Submit a Show Idea

CDC's "Toolkits"

CDC's "Toolkit: Developing a Legionella Water Management Program"

CDC's "Toolkit: Controlling Legionella in Common Sources of Exposure"

ASHRAE 188-2021 "Legionellosis: Risk Management for Building Water Systems"

CMS Mandates Water Management Programs in Healthcare Facilities

CMS QSO 17 – 30 Memorandum

ASSE/IAPMO/ANSI/CAN Series 12000-2024 (Download)

ASSE's Infection Control and Water Quality

ANSI/AAMI ST108:2023 Water for the Processing of Medical Services

CDC's Routine Legionella Testing Figure 1: A multifactorial approach to performance indicator interpretation

World Health Organization (WHO) 'Legionellosis'

Water You Know with James McDonald

Question: Why is barium chloride used in the standard Hydroxide Alkalinity test?

2025 Events for Water Professionals

Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

"The winning combination will include not just removal—but real destruction of PFAS." - Brian Liotta

PFAS: The Invisible Challenge Reshaping Water Treatment

PFAS chemicals are everywhere—from consumer products to our bloodstream. But as regulations tighten, water treatment professionals must now evolve faster than ever. In this episode of Scaling UP! H2O, host Trace Blackmore speaks with Brian Liotta, Director of Marketing and Product Development at USALCO, about the shifting regulatory landscape and the advanced technologies being developed to monitor, remove, and destroy PFAS compounds.

From Industry Curiosity to Regulatory Urgency

Brian candidly shares how he "fell into" the world of PFAS, sparked by client questions and his work with AWT's Wastewater Subcommittee. Over time, he became one of the industry's clearest voices on how PFAS is transforming everything from chemical manufacturing to compliance practices. In this conversation, Brian breaks down the science, the timeline, and the technologies professionals need to understand—whether they're manufacturers, consultants, or field engineers.

Testing, Treatment, and Destruction: What's Working and What's Coming

Testing for PFAS isn't straightforward. Brian outlines why high-performance liquid chromatography and mass spectrometry are still standard, despite the lack of affordable, field-ready kits. Then, he walks us through the big three: granular activated carbon, ion exchange, and membrane filtration—explaining how each performs and what their operational limits are. He also introduces lesser-known but emerging strategies like foam fractionation, electrostatic concentration, and supercritical water oxidation—some of which could shape the next generation of end-to-end PFAS solutions.

The Legal Front: EPA Rules, State Action, and the Chevron Doctrine

The conversation turns toward the regulatory environment: from the EPA's national drinking water standard of 4 parts per trillion to individual state actions in California, Maine, New York, and others. Brian unpacks the implications of the Chevron Doctrine being overturned and why this legal shift may slow federal implementation but accelerate state-led policies.

What It Means for Water Treatment Professionals

Whether you're new to industrial water or managing a large portfolio, Brian delivers a simple but powerful takeaway: understand the regulations, study the technologies, and provide solutions. With PFAS-related services on the rise, the opportunity for technical leadership and business growth is clear—but only for those who do their homework and move early.

Conclusion

PFAS isn't just a regulatory buzzword—it's a catalyst for innovation. As Brian notes, the most successful professionals will be those who bridge the gap between evolving science and real-world application. This episode equips you with a deeper understanding of what's at stake and how to lead your customers through uncertainty with confidence.

Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!

Timestamps

10:35 – Water You Know with James McDonald

12:52 – Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals

18:06 – Interview with Brian Liotta Director of Marketing & Product Development of USALCO

22:15 — What is PFAS?

26:00 — EPA's new 4 parts per trillion PFAS drinking water standard and what it means

32:06 — Treatment technologies: GAC, ion exchange, reverse osmosis, and their pros and cons

37:32 — Emerging innovations: foam fractionation, electrostatic concentration, and plasma-based destruction

42:00 — State-by-state PFAS regulations and implications of the Chevron Doctrine ruling

46:20 — Advice to new water professionals: understand the regulations, then bring the right solutions

Quotes

"Regulation drives our business. If you're not paying attention, you're not preparing your customers."

"PFAS are in our water, our products, even our bloodstream. This isn't hype—it's science catching up."

"Some of the smartest people I know ask a lot of questions. Curiosity is how you become valuable."

"We're seeing companies build end-to-end treatment trains. That's where the innovation is happening."

Connect with Brian Liotta

Phone: 15102747326

Email: [email protected]

Website: Water Treatment Chemicals - Baltimore, MD | USALCO

LinkedIn: Brian Liotta | LinkedIn

Click HERE to Download Episode's Discussion Guide

Guest Resources Mentioned

Interstate Technology & Regulatory Council (ITRC)

ITRC Resources Guide

ITRC PFAS (Per- and Polyfluoroalkyl Substances)

Join ITRC PFAS Team

EPA PFAS Resource Center

Battelle PFAS ANNIHILATOR® Destruction Technology

Measure What Matters: How Google, Bono, and the Gates Foundation Rock the World with OKRs

This Is Your Brain on Music: The Science of a Human Obsession by Daniel J. Levitin

Brooks: The Biography of Brooks Robinson

EPA National Primary Drinking Water Regulation for PFAS (2023)

Chevron Doctrine Overturn (2024) – Supreme Court Decision

EPA Announces It Will Keep Maximum Contaminant Levels for PFOA, PFOS

EPA's Per- and Polyfluoroalkyl Substances (PFAS) in Sewage Sludge

EPA's Summary of the Toxic Substances Control Act (TSCA)

MIT News ' A new sensor detects harmful "forever chemicals" in drinking water '

AWWA's Journal: Treating PFAS-Laden Waste Using Aqueous Electrostatic Concentration

California adopts health-protective goals for forever chemicals in drinking water

Colorado PFAS Restrictions

Maine PFAS

Maryland PFAS

Maryland PFAS in Biosolids Regulatory Update – August 20, 2024

Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned

AWT (Association of Water Technologies)

Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses

Submit a Show Idea

The Rising Tide Mastermind

Ep 410 Unleash Your Pricing Power: Casey Brown's 'Fearless Pricing' Revolutionizes Business Value

Ep 408 Pinks and Blues: The Power of Processes

Fearless Pricing: Ignite Your Team, Own Your Value, and Command What You Deserve by Casey Brown

Water You Know with James McDonald

Question: If you place a small amount of concentrated hydrochloric acid on a deposit sample and it bubbles, what is this likely to indicate?

2025 Events for Water Professionals

Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

"You can't learn it all in one year. You can't even learn it all in ten." That single statement from Jim Lukanich captures the spirit of this unforgettable episode.

Returning to the Scaling UP! H2O Podcast for the first time since Episode 10, Jim Lukanich joins host Trace Blackmore to reflect on a remarkable 44-year career in the water treatment industry. From his early days at U.S. Steel to leading technical innovation at Buckman Laboratories, ChemCal, U.S. Water, and Kurita, Jim has been a force for mentorship, learning, and raising the bar in technical excellence.

Building a Career, One Problem at a Time

Jim walks us through the formative moments of his career — the gritty hands-on learning at US Steel, the cultural differences he encountered at Nalco, and the breakthrough growth and global travel that defined his time at Buckman Labs. He shares how relentless reading, teaching, and real-world problem-solving built the foundation of his expertise.

More than just a technical expert, Jim is a storyteller. His accounts of teaching microbiology in Brazil pre-internet — with nothing but overhead projectors and thousands of peer-reviewed articles — highlight just how much dedication the field once required (and still does).

Educator, Mentor, Technologist

This episode shines as Jim reveals his unexpected passion for teaching and how that eventually connected him with the Association of Water Technologies (AWT). From correcting pronunciation quirks to co-writing the Certified Water Technologist (CWT) exam, Jim's teaching legacy spans thousands of students and professionals around the world.

Listeners will appreciate Jim's honest take on what separates industry veterans who grow from those who stagnate — and the importance of actively seeking knowledge beyond routine routes.

Beyond Retirement: Knowledge that Lasts

Now officially retired, Jim isn't finished contributing. He shares future plans for limited consulting and speaks candidly about what it means to truly mentor someone — and what many water professionals are missing out on if they don't.

This is more than a career retrospective; it's a call to honor the past by preparing for the future — with integrity, curiosity, and generosity.

Conclusion: Wisdom Worth Passing Down

Jim's impact isn't measured just by how many systems he's treated or miles he's flown — but by the lives he's touched and the minds he's sharpened. For any professional looking to improve technical depth, leadership, or mentoring, this episode is a must-listen.

Listen now to learn from one of the water industry's most respected mentors. Explore more episodes, sharpen your skills, and consider becoming the mentor you once needed.

Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!

Timestamps

03:44 - Trace shares some Water facts and World Vision 6k Recap

06:40 - Water You Know with James McDonald

07:04 - Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals

17:30 - Interview with returning guest, Jim Lukanich

24:27 - Jim shares how teaching at Buckman became a passion

45:00 - Learning daily builds deep expertise over time

Quotes

Jim Lukanich: "I've read thousands of peer-reviewed technical papers—not the BS in magazines—but real science."

Jim Lukanich: "You can't learn it all in a year. You can't learn it all in 10. I've been doing this for 44 years, and I still read technical papers."

Trace Blackmore: "You were the one who made me want to teach water treatment. You brought energy to technical education."

Jim Lukanich: "If you've been in this industry 20 years and can't pass the CWT, you stopped learning at year three."

Jim Lukanich: "Before I fade into oblivion, I want to dump out as much knowledge as I can."

Connect with Jim Lukanich

LinkedIn: Jim Lukanich | LinkedIn

Click HERE to Download Episode's Discussion Guide

Guest Resources Mentioned

Dune by Frank Herbert - Audiobook

The Silmarillion by J.R.R. Tolkien

Lee Child's Jack Reacher Books 1-6 by Lee Child

Never Flinch: A Novel by Stephen King - Audiobook

Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned

AWT (Association of Water Technologies)

Episode 378 Tackling Legionella: Balancing Safety, Sustainability, and Disinfection

Episode 010 The One with Jim Lukanich

Legionella Resources

Industrial Water Week Resources

Industrial Water Week

Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses

Scaling UP! Nation – Global 6k Donation Drive

Submit a Show Idea

The Rising Tide Mastermind

World Vision

Water You Know with James McDonald

Question: What are the two primary ways heat is rejected by a cooling tower?

2025 Events for Water Professionals

Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

What happens when a nuclear chemist pivots into industrial water treatment? In this episode, host Trace Blackmore is joined by Dr. Jasbir Gill, President at Water Energy Solutions Inc, whose career spans five decades of breakthrough innovations in water chemistry and sustainability. From developing predictive modeling systems to creating new polymer standards, Dr. Gill shares how scientific rigor and practical experience came together to shape tools still used today.

"We were not just saving water—we were calculating the true cost of energy and environmental impact."

From Nuclear Chemistry to Water Treatment

Dr. Gill begins by tracing his academic roots in nuclear and inorganic chemistry from IIT Roorkee, followed by early post-doctoral research in Italy and England. While initially headed for a career in nuclear separations, a chance encounter rerouted his path to the U.S., where his work at SUNY Buffalo introduced him to the intricacies of water chemistry. That foundational knowledge laid the groundwork for his transformative career at Calgon, and later Nalco.

The Birth of CalGuard: Predictive Modeling Ahead of Its Time

In one of the most compelling parts of the episode, Dr. Gill walks us through the creation of CalGuard—an award-winning predictive modeling tool that transformed how chemical dosing and scaling behavior are calculated. Integrating thermodynamic principles, field data, and statistical regression, the CalGuard model helped standardize customized water treatment programs across regional chemistries and system variables.

Defining the Water-Energy-Carbon Nexus

A highlight of Dr. Gill's later career came when he began asking hard questions about sustainability. How much energy is consumed per gallon of water saved? What's the carbon footprint of that savings? He shares compelling stories of his work with nuclear power plants, showing how acid use for pH control contributed to CO₂ emissions—insights that later shaped his independent firm, Water Energy Solutions.

From Chromate to Phosphate: Reinventing Treatment Chemistry

When chromate was phased out of industrial water treatment, Dr. Gill was at the forefront of developing phosphate-based alternatives. He recounts the invention of the AAM 60/40 copolymer in his lab—now an industry standard—and how field trials and real-time testing guided product refinement. This section underscores how practical chemistry, adaptability, and client trust converge to move the industry forward.

The J-Factor and Real-World Impact

Dr. Gill explains his invention of the J-factor—a conversion metric allowing new inhibitors to be benchmarked against legacy ones. Developed through comparative field tests and algorithmic modeling, the J-factor exemplifies the intersection of empirical science and industry need, with wide applicability even decades later.

Final Reflections: Leadership, Teamwork, and Lifelong Curiosity

In the closing segment, Dr. Gill reflects on the importance of teamwork, adaptability, and focusing on one's work amid organizational change. His stories—from field trips in Montana to building mobile labs for rapid field testing—reveal the human side of technical innovation.

This episode is more than a lesson in chemistry—it's a case study in innovation, leadership, and long-term thinking. Dr. Gill's insights remind us that successful water treatment isn't just about products; it's about persistence, systems thinking, and data-driven action.

Share this episode with colleagues committed to impactful, sustainable water management.

Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!

Timestamps

08:00 – Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals

12:44 – Water You Know with James McDonald

15:35 – Interview with Dr. Jasbir Gill and his career origins in nuclear chemistry

17:05 – Transition to water chemistry and first role at Calgon in 1979

33:49 — Importance of J Factors in dosing and treatment conversions

49:16 — Creation of the AAMP copolymer and phosphate compatibility

Quotes

"Focus on your project… your work will carry you through every organization."

"I had no idea that J Factors came from Dr. Gill—and they actually stood for his first name, Jasbir."

"You never know what you're doing to help someone and what that's going to create."

Connect with Dr. Jasbir Gill

Phone: +1 630-346-6141

Email: [email protected]

Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasbir-gill-07766630/

Click HERE to Download Episode's Discussion Guide

Guest Resources Mentioned

Sapiens (10 Year Anniversary Edition) by HARARI YUVAL NOAH

Leonardo's Notebooks: Writing and Art of the Great Master (Notebook Series) by Leonardo Da Vinci

A History of the Sikhs by Khushwant Singh

Dr. Gill joined Calgon Corporation

Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned

AWT (Association of Water Technologies)

Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses

Submit a Show Idea

Water You Know with James McDonald

Question: What do we call the ratio between the amount of dissolved solids in a system water and the amount of dissolved solids in that system's makeup water?

2025 Events for Water Professionals

Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

"Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death!" - Patrick Henry

Honoring Innovation, Freedom, and Small Business on the 4th of July

In this special Independence Day episode of Scaling UP! H2O, host Trace Blackmore brings you a rich blend of patriotism, professional insight, and entrepreneurial spirit. Opening with reflections on July 4th traditions—from fireworks to parades—Trace sets the stage for a compelling conversation with Jack Clark, Owner and Founder of 180 Water. As the water industry faces growing demand and generational turnover, Jack offers a bold solution: a replicable franchise model designed to preserve institutional knowledge and sustainably expand access to clean water.

A Rancher Turned Water Well Visionary

Jack shares his origin story, from growing up on a ranch in Montana to launching a water well drilling company that now spans multiple states. What started with a neighbor's influence and a deep respect for self-reliance evolved into a career in well drilling—and eventually, a scalable business framework. Jack walks us through the unique challenges of finding water in fractured rock regions and explains how field wisdom, data monitoring, and humility define success.

Franchising in the Water Sector: Solving the Knowledge Drain

As the industry grapples with aging experts nearing retirement, 180 Water is addressing a critical issue: the loss of operational and geological expertise. Jack reveals how his team is onboarding retiring professionals as equity partners to serve as regional hubs, blending mentorship with modern operations. Their approach enables local ownership, data collection, and scalable customer service, while preserving regional nuances in well drilling.

Lessons in Leadership, Accountability, and Resilience

Jack emphasizes that real growth stems from reflection, mentorship, and integrity. He discusses how accountability—rooted in ranch life—translates into transparent client relationships, responsible site practices, and support systems that empower franchisees. His goal? To build a network of highly trained, values-aligned professionals who ensure the longevity and safety of our groundwater resources.

The Spirit of Liberty: Patrick Henry's Enduring Speech

In a moving tribute to Independence Day, Trace closes the episode with a complete reading of Patrick Henry's "Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death" speech. Listeners are reminded of the courage it takes to challenge the status quo and the unifying power of respectful discourse—values that echo through today's challenges in water, business, and beyond.

Final Takeaway

This episode isn't just about wells—it's about vision, responsibility, and the courage to lead. Jack Clark's journey inspires water professionals to think bigger, act with purpose, and consider scalable solutions to systemic industry issues.

Be sure to check our events page for upcoming water conferences and symposiums to continue growing your expertise.

Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!

Timestamps

02:20 - Trace Blackmore shares his warm greetings to Scaling UP! Nation this 4th of July!

07:27 - Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals

10:37 - Water You Know with James McDonald

12:53 - Introduction with Jack Clark of 180 Water

18: 07 - Jack transitioned from expansion by employment to a franchise model

Quotes

Jack Clark: "If you don't get your chores done on the farm, things don't eat. And so it's important to make sure that you can be counted on." "I was sending my best guys to the worst projects, my worst guys to the best projects—and no one was happy." "You know how to run your business. You were successful at that. But we want to help you scale it with support and mentorship." "There's not a perfect science to well drilling. Sometimes you find the water. Sometimes you don't. But that's the responsibility we take on."

Trace Blackmore: "I really believe that the backbone of our country is small business and entrepreneurship." "I hope we realize we have way more in common than we do differences—and that we enter conversations with curiosity instead of judgment."

Connect with Jack Clark

Phone: +406 465 4791

Email: [email protected]

Website: 180 Water

LinkedIn: 180 Water: Overview | LinkedIn

Click HERE to Download Episode's Discussion Guide

Guest Resources Mentioned

Freakonomics: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side of Everything by Steven D. Levitt, Stephen J Dubner

Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned

AWT (Association of Water Technologies)

Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses

Submit a Show Idea

The Rising Tide Mastermind

Water You Know with James McDonald

Question: How many ppm of sodium sulfite does it take to react with one ppm of oxygen?

2025 Events for Water Professionals

Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.

In this episode, Trace Blackmore welcomes back Tom Hutchison, Chairman of the Board, HOH Water Technology, to reflect on what it really takes to step out of day-to-day leadership—and do it well. As a multi-decade leader in water treatment, Tom shares the personal, professional, and organizational insights that shaped his transition from CEO to chairman and what it means to lead a business into its next generation.

From early succession conversations to the unspoken anxieties of staff, Hutch offers a rare look behind the curtain of legacy-building in industrial water treatment. And as private equity plays a growing role in the industry, Tom unpacks the very real choices facing owners and teams alike—with clarity and compassion.

Navigating Leadership Through Change

Tom begins by describing the decision to shift from day-to-day leadership to a board-level role. He reflects on the emotional weight of that process and the internal work required to detach his identity from his title. Rather than clinging to authority, he outlines the importance of trust and letting emerging leaders find their voice—even when it means they'll make different decisions.

He also highlights the human cost of poor planning. "Death," as Tom puts it bluntly, "is not a strategy." Waiting too long or failing to mentor successors doesn't just disrupt the business—it risks unraveling everything you've built.

Succession Planning and Cultural Continuity

Trace and Tom dive into the mechanics of succession planning—not just from an ownership perspective, but a cultural one. Tom explains how HOH built an internal environment where values weren't just posted on the wall but deeply lived. This foundation allowed the company to navigate major transitions, including its eventual move into private equity, without losing its identity.

He also warns about the consequences of delayed planning. Waiting too long, he says, puts the business, its people, and its principles at risk.

Preparing for Private Equity—Without Losing Yourself

One of the most practical parts of the conversation centers on HOH's private equity journey. Tom shares how they vetted buyers not just for financial capacity, but for cultural alignment. He outlines how his team clarified their mission and values before the deal, which ultimately helped preserve their vision after the transition.

Rather than resist change, HOH treated the shift as an opportunity to reinforce their core—while expanding their reach.

The Long Arc of Legacy

Tom closes with a powerful meditation on leadership legacy. He explains that real legacy isn't about being remembered—it's about ensuring the business can thrive without you. He challenges listeners to think beyond titles, financial outcomes, or even strategy, and focus on the enduring impact of culture, mentorship, and examples.

Trace echoes this with a reminder that great leaders not only lead—they leave well. If you're leading a team, planning your exit, or preparing the next generation of leadership, this episode is a must-listen.

To take this conversation further, download the Discussion Guide located in the Connect with the Guest section of the show notes.

Stay engaged, keep learning, and continue scaling up your knowledge!

Timestamps

02:46 – Opening the episode, Trace reflects on the concept of the "butterfly line"—that uncomfortable but powerful moment right before growth happens

07:10 – Water You Know with James McDonald

09:08 – Upcoming Events for Water Treatment Professionals

11:49– Guest Intro: Tom "Hutch" Hutchison Returns

12:35 – Stepping Down in 2020: How the Pandemic Helped

17:17 – Private Equity's Growing Role in Water Treatment

20:04 – The 5 Ownership Transition Paths

36:01 – Your Company is an Asset, not just a Job

42:00 – A New Mission: To Encourage and Inspire

Quotes

"The longer you put it off, the fewer options you have. And probably, the more unsettled your employees might be."

"You don't have to suffer for the first time alone. If someone's already done it, learn from them and do it better."

"Business is both a job and an asset. If you only treat it as a job, you're leaving value on the table."

"I think I'm still figuring it out—but in this next season, I want to encourage and inspire."

"You can start at step five if someone else already figured out the first four—just polish it and give it back."

Connect with Tom Hutchison

Phone: +18474367403

Email: [email protected]

Website: HOH Water Technology - Water Treatment Solutions

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomasfhutchison/

Click HERE to Download Episode's Discussion Guide

Guest Resources Mentioned

Alexander Hamilton by Ron Chernow

Halftime: Moving from Success to Significance by Bob P. Buford

Harry Potter Paperback Box Set (Books 1-7) by J.K. Rowling

King: A Life by Jonathan Eig

Strong and Weak: Embracing a Life of Love, Risk and True Flourishing by Andy Crouch

The Ideal Team Player: How to Recognize and Cultivate The Three Essential Virtues (J-B Lencioni Series) by Patrick M. Lencioni

The Lord of the Rings: 50th Anniversary, One Vol. Edition by J.R.R. Tolkien

The Little Liar: A Novel by Mitch Albom

Scaling UP! H2O Resources Mentioned

AWT (Association of Water Technologies)

Scaling UP! H2O Academy video courses

Submit a Show Idea

The Rising Tide Mastermind

166 The One Where We Celebrate Halloween

325 Rising Together: Conquering Challenges through Collective Support

127 The One With Tom Hutchison

Water You Know with James McDonald

Question: What is defined as the acid-absorbing property of water?

2025 Events for Water Professionals

Check out our Scaling UP! H2O Events Calendar where we've listed every event Water Treaters should be aware of by clicking HERE.