Bryce Nickels speaks with Sigrid Bratlie, a molecular biologist and strategic advisor on biotechnology for the Norwegian think tank, Langsikt, who has become a prominent voice in Norway in the debate surrounding the origins of COVID-19. Sigrid describes her involvement in the COVID origins discussion, and the conflicts that arose with established virologists. The conversation covers scientific integrity, the intersection of science and politics, the challenges of communicating complex scientific issues to the public, and the implications of emerging technologies like AI.

features music by Tess Parks

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Bryce Nickels interviews Lee Jussim, a Distinguished Professor of Psychology at Rutgers University, about cancel culture in academia, the pressure to conform to political views, and the negative effects of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) initiatives. They discuss Lee's research measuring political extremism in academia as well as his recent analysis of the impact of DEI rhetoric on perceptions of racism. Bryce and Lee also discuss the challenges posed by the lack of political diversity in academic settings.

features music by Tess Parks

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Bryce Nickels and Kevin Bass critically evaluate the accuracy of statements made in Zeynep Tufekci's New York Times Op-Ed, "Trump’s Pick to Lead the NIH Gets Some Things Right."

Summary: On November 27, 2024, Stanford Professor Jay Bhattacharya was nominated as the Director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH). That same day, Zeynep Tufekci published an Op-Ed in the New York Times, listing four criticisms of Bhattacharya’s COVID-19 positions under the heading, "Here’s some of what Bhattacharya got wrong about Covid-19."In "Can I Respond To That Please? (episode 4),” Bryce Nickels and Kevin Bass carefully dissect Tufekci’s claims, exposing them as both factually inaccurate and intentionally misleading.

They also delve into how Tufekci's Op-Ed reflects a larger problem in the media: journalists eroding public trust in health communication by spreading falsehoods or misrepresenting the views of scientists who challenge mainstream narratives. The conversation underscores the urgent need for accountability in media and ethical reporting on scientific matters to restore public confidence in health communication.

recorded November 29, 2024

features music by Tess Parks

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Professor Jay Bhattacharya and filmmaker Vanessa Dylyn discuss her new film Covid Collateral, an investigative documentary about the societal harms caused by the severe lockdowns imposed by western governments during the COVID-19 pandemic. The film explores the devastating impact of the censorship of science in a free society.

features music by Tess Parks

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Stanford Professor Jay Bhattacharya and Rutgers Professor Bryce Nickels respond to scientists that attack members of the public who voice concerns about research conducted in high-containment biolabs in their communities. They highlight this issue through the responses of scientists to community organizers Klare X. Allen and Lorraine Fowlkes from the Roxbury Safety Net.

In 2000, Klare founded the Roxbury Safety Net as a movement of people of color who have been excluded from decision-making processes that impact their safety, quality of life, and environment. For over 20 years, the Roxbury Safety Net has promoted environmental justice and community control over development of the Roxbury neighborhood in Boston, MA. In 2002, the Roxbury Safety Net discovered Boston University’s plans to build a BSL-4 lab (later named the National Emerging Infectious Diseases Laboratories, NEIDL) in the Roxbury/South End neighborhood. Alarmed by the threat posed to the community, the Safety Net immediately began a campaign to Stop the BU Bio Terror Lab. Since then, Stop the BU Bio Terror Lab has operated as a coalition of community residents, scientists, lawyers, students, members of peace and justice groups, and members of the faith community united in opposition to dangerous research being performed at the NEIDL. Members have made numerous visits to City Councilors, hosted countless meetings, organized dozens of protests, spoken at city, state and federal hearings, submitted public comment, and initiated both state and federal lawsuits. These efforts persuaded the city of Boston to implement the strictest local regulations on biosafety, biosecurity, and biorisk management in any city in the United States.

recorded October 28, 2024

0:00 - 0:30: Intro Tess Parks

0:30 - 2:25: Welcome and introduction

2:25 - 4:00: Jay discusses the lack of public consent for high-risk research and the public's right to have a say in the research conducted in their communities.

4:00 - 15:30: Jay and Bryce discuss why high-containment biolabs are often located in large cities. Bryce introduces Klare X. Allen and the Roxbury Safety Net.

15:30 - 19:40: Klare X. Allen recounts how she first learned about Boston University's plan to build the NEIDL in 2002 and describes the disrespectful treatment of Roxbury community members.

19:40 - 25:35: Jay and Bryce reflect on Klare's comments.

25:35 - 26:25: Lorraine Fowlkes of the Roxbury Safety Net speaks at a City Council meeting in San Carlos, CA (March 2023).

26:25 - 1:10:20: Bryce and Jay discuss reactions from scientists to Lorraine’s comments after they were posted on X.

1:10:20 - 1:24:40: Bryce and Jay explore the need for reforms in science to change the culture that perceives the public as adversaries.

1:24:40 - 1:26:40: Sign-off

1:26:40 - 1:27:26: Outro Tess Parks

Click here to learn more about Klare X. Allen and the Roxbury Safety Net

Click here to view the post on X with Lorraine Fowlkes comments that prompted attacks from scientists.

Timeline: National Emerging Infectious Diseases Laboratories (NEIDL)

* September 2003: The National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases awarded Boston University $128 million to construct one of two National Biocontainment Laboratories.

* February 2006: The federal government announced its decision to fund the laboratory’s construction, which began in March of that same year.

* Fall 2008: Construction of the NEIDL is completed.

* December 2011: The BU laboratory was granted preliminary approval by The State Executive Office of Energy and Environmental Affairs grants approval for BSL-2 research at the NIEDL.

* April 2012: BSL-2 work begins at the NIEDL.

* January 2013: The National Institutes of Health concludes that Boston University’s high-containment laboratory “poses minimal risk to the community surrounding the facility,” clearing the way for a final state environmental review.

* March 2013: The state secretary of environmental affairs approves Boston University's environmental impact report.

* January 2014: BSL-3 work begins at the NIEDL.

* May 2014: Boston City Council The Boston City Council voted 8-5 to reject a proposed ordinance banning BSL-4 labs.

* December 2016: The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention approved Boston University to operate a BSL-4 laboratory.

* August 2018: The NEIDL begins work with its first Level-4 pathogens, the Ebola and Marburg viruses.

* October 2022: Researchers at the NEIDL ignite controversy by announcing they have performed SARS-CoV-2 gain of function experiments.

Articles about biolabs in San Carlos, CA:

* San Carlos moves to regulate biohazards (March 8, 2023)

* San Carlos Bans High-Risk Bio Labs in the City – A Win for the Safety of the Residents (June 6, 2023)

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Professors Jay Bhattacharya (Stanford) and Bryce Nickels (Rutgers) are joined by New York Times bestselling author, surgeon, and healthcare expert Dr. Marty Makary (Johns Hopkins) to discuss a new film by award winning director Jenner Furst, titled Thank You, Dr. Fauci, which critically examines Anthony Fauci's role in the COVID-19 pandemic.

They also discuss Marty's latest book, Blind Spots, which explores how groupthink, self-importance, dogmatism, and careerism in American academic medicine have hindered progress and innovation.

Timestamps

00:00 – Intro (Friendlies by Tess Parks and Anton Newcombe)

00:32 – Jay Bhattacharya introduces Marty Makary and Bryce Nickels, both featured in the film Thank You, Dr. Fauci, directed by Jenner Furst.

01:05 – Bryce explains the film’s title and where to watch (ThankYouDrFaucimovie.com).

01:57 – Marty discusses censorship of the film.

02:45 – Jay discusses how the film highlights former CDC Director Robert Redfield’s early pandemic sidelining over his belief that COVID-19 resulted from a lab accident.

03:40 – Clips from Thank You, Dr. Fauci featuring Redfield.

06:25 – Bryce and Marty discuss how they wish Jay had more scenes in the film.

07:28 – Marty describes platforms censoring the film’s ads.

08:13 – Jay and Marty speculate on why the Biden administration might limit the film’s visibility.

10:20 – Marty recounts his initial doubts about Fauci, beginning when Fauci transported an Ebola patient to NIH for publicity.

14:50 – Marty and Bryce discuss evidence of COVID-19’s potential research-related origins vs. natural spillover

19:50 – Jay, Marty, and Bryce explore the virology community’s possible motivations for covering up a research origin and the culture of scientific hubris.

24:07 – Jay shares Simon Wain-Hobson’s proposal for a Hippocratic Oath in STEM, which he discussed during a recent conference at Stanford University.

25:38 – Marty discusses why minority communities historically distrust public health officials.

27:38 – Jay and Marty discuss a PBS clip featuring Anthony Fauci and DC Mayor Bowser meeting a vaccine-skeptical resident.

33:35 – Jay critiques Fauci’s fear-mongering, especially regarding COVID-19’s threat to children.

36:38 – Marty recalls the public health community’s reaction in fall 2020 to President Trump’s mask-wearing habits.

37:58 – Marty introduces his book Blind Spots on groupthink in medicine, now a NY Times bestseller.

40:45 – Marty and Jay discuss former NIH Director Francis Collins’s focus on genetic disease causes and the downsides for public health.

50:47 – Jay concludes the podcast.

51:08 – Outro (Friendlies by Tess Parks and Anton Newcombe).

Resources

Click here to watch Thank You, Dr. Fauci

Click here to purchase Blind Spots

Click here to learn more about Dr. Marty Makary

Sources

U.S. Senate HELP Committee hearing: COVID-19: Safely Getting Back to Work and Back to School (May 12, 2020)

Dr. Fauci visits D.C. to battle vaccine hesitancy

National Institutes of Health News Conference on Ebola (October 17, 2014)

U.S. House Energy and Commerce Subcommittee on Oversight & Investigations hearing: U.S. Response to Ebola (October 16, 2024)

Stanford University Health Policy Conference: Pandemic Policy: Planning the Future, Assessing the Past (October 4, 2024)

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Did lockdowns work to save lives? Professor Jay Bhattacharya and economist Jonas Herby discuss the evidence. In 2022, Herby, Steve Hanke, and Lars Jonung published a comprehensive review of the scientific literature on the topic. Their shocking conclusion was that the real-world evidence did not support the idea that the early lockdowns of March 2020 had saved many lives. While the early computer models predicted that lockdowns were necessary to prevent millions of deaths, in fact, there were only small differences in outcomes between locations that adopted stringent, formal restrictions and places (like Sweden) that did not. Herby and Bhattacharya discuss the limitations of early models and the need for real data in evaluating public health interventions. Finally, Herby reveals the shocking treatment of his scientific work on lockdowns by scientific pre-print outlets, which censored his paper but published substandard criticisms of it, creating an illusion of scientific consensus in favor of lockdowns.

Resource: Herby et al., A Systematic Literature Review and Meta-Analysis of the Effects of Lockdowns on COVID-19 Mortality II

Featuring music by Tess Parks.

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The second part of Bryce Nickels' two-part conversation with Neil Harrison offering a critical examination of the evidence for the hypothesis that the COVID-19 pandemic began at the Huanan Seafood Market in early December 2019. Click here to listen to the first part of their conversation.

In the second half of the discussion, Bryce and Neil discuss why, in late 2021, virologists rushed to convince the public that the Wuhan outbreak began in December 2019, despite extensive evidence and independent confirmations from multiple groups suggesting a more likely start date in October 2019.

0:00 - 0:32 Music by Tess Parks

0:33 - 2:31 Bryce recaps part one, explaining why the claim that the COVID-19 pandemic started at the Huanan Seafood Market is unsound.

2:32 - 7:17 Neil discusses possible reasons why anyone trying to cover up a lab origin of the COVID-19 pandemic, may want place the time of the outbreak in Wuhan in December 2019 (which is not supported by the available evidence), instead of October 2019 (which is supported by the available evidence).

7:18 - 15:00 Neil presents evidence supporting an outbreak timeline of October 2019, rather than December 2019. He explains that three separate research groups independently reached this conclusion and notes how the early 2020 outbreak in New York City also supports this timeline.

15:01 - 26:10 Neil and Bryce examine how the leak of the DEFUSE proposal by DRASTIC in September 2021 might have influenced virologists to publish unsound studies pushing the December 2019 timeline to downplay a lab origin of COVID-19. The 2018 DEFUSE grant proposal to DARPA included experiments to add furin cleavage sites to coronaviruses. This feature, new to SARS-CoV-2 and absent in its closest relatives, points toward a lab origin rather than a natural one.

26:11 - 33:00 Neil outlines why the claim that SARS-CoV-2 originated from an infected raccoon dog at the Huanan Seafood Market lacks credibility.

33:01 - 39:40 Bryce and Neil end by discussing the political landscape surrounding COVID origins and biosafety.

39:41 - 40:20 Music by Tess Parks

Articles suggesting the epidemic began in Wuhan in October 2019:

Li et al., Transmission dynamics and evolutionary history of 2019‐nCoV. J. Med. Virol. 2020.

van Dorp et al., Emergence of genomic diversity and recurrent mutations in SARS-CoV-2. Infect. Genet. Evol. 2020.

Bai et al., Comprehensive evolution and molecular characteristics of a large number of SARS-CoV-2 genomes reveal its epidemic trends. Int. J. Infect. Dis. 2020.

Kumar et al., An evolutionary portrait of the progenitor SARS-CoV-2 and its dominant offshoots in COVID-19 pandemic. Mol. Biol. Evol. 2021.

Pekar et al., Timing the SARS-CoV-2 index case in Hubei province. Science 2021

Articles suggesting the epidemic began in Wuhan in December 2019:

Pekar et al., The molecular epidemiology of multiple zoonotic origins of SARS-CoV-2. Science 2022

See also:

Ma J. Coronavirus: China’s first confirmed Covid-19 case traced back to November 17. Southern China Morning Post. 2020.

Retraction Request for Worobey et al., 2022 & Pekar et al., 2022

For more information on studies of the New York City epidemic, see:

Wikipedia page for COVID-19 pandemic in New York City

Paper by Jeffrey Harris (Department of Economist, MIT): The Subways Seeded the Massive Coronavirus Epidemic in New York City

Reporting by Jim Dolan from 2021: Eyewitness to a Pandemic: Episode 1 - An Invisible Menace

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Part 1 of Bryce Nickels' two-part conversation with Neil Harrison offers a critical examination of the evidence for the hypothesis that the COVID-19 pandemic began at the Huanan Seafood Market in early December 2019. Neil discusses how he became interested in the origins debate and highlights the controversies surrounding it. He also shares his journey to coauthoring a May 2022 paper with economist Jeffrey Sachs, titled "A call for an independent inquiry into the origin of the SARS-CoV-2 virus," published in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS). Bryce and Neil go on to question the "dots and circles" method used by Michael Worobey and colleagues in their 2022 Science paper, which claims the pandemic started at the Huanan Seafood Market—a conclusion that Neil bluntly describes as "b******t."

Click here to listen the part 2 of the conversation.

0:00 - 0:32 Music by Tess Parks

0:33 - 3:30 Neil Harrison introduces himself and shares how he became interested in investigating COVID-19's origins.

3:31 - 11:50 Neil discusses his and Columbia economist Jeffrey Sachs' 2022 opinion piece in PNAS, titled “A call for an independent inquiry into the origin of the SARS-CoV-2 virus.”

11:51 - 15:30 Neil reviews the prevailing scientific “consensus” on the Wuhan outbreak's timing and location, based on two 2022 Science papers (Pekar et al., and Worobey et al.), which place it at the Huanan Seafood Market in early December 2019.

15:31 - 18:30 Neil clarifies that by early 2020, it was evident that the pandemic did not begin at the Huanan Seafood Market.

18:31 - 19:45 Bryce and Neil discuss why, in late 2021, some Western scientists began promoting the narrative that the Wuhan outbreak originated at Huanan Seafood Market.

19:46 - 22:00 Neil explains why the idea that the virus began at the Huanan Seafood Market persists and is heavily promoted, contrasting it with the substantial evidence of natural origins for SARS-1, which does not exist for SARS-2.

22:01 - 38:00 Neil critiques the “dots and circles” analysis by Worobey et al. in their 2022 Science paper, calling it “nonsense” when applied to establish the origins of the SARS-CoV-2 epidemic in New York City in early 2020.

38:01 - 40:54 Bryce challenges Michael Worobey to apply his “dots and circles” analysis to outbreaks in New York City and Italy to test its validity.

40:55 - 40:58 Neil concludes, saying, “I think we’ve beaten that one to death,” reinforcing that the claim of the outbreak's origin at the Huanan Seafood Market is unsound.

40:59 - 41:36 Music by Tess Parks

For more information on studies of the New York City epidemic see:

Wikipedia page for COVID-19 pandemic in New York City

Paper by Jeffrey Harris (Department of Economist, MIT): The Subways Seeded the Massive Coronavirus Epidemic in New York City

Reporting by Jim Dolan from 2021: Eyewitness to a Pandemic: Episode 1 - An Invisible Menace

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sciencefromthefringe.substack.com

Jay Bhattacharya speaks with Congresswoman Mariannette Miller-Meeks (R-Iowa) about the failures of public health during the COVID-19 pandemic, emphasizing the need for robust debate, transparency, and reform within the CDC. They explore the impact of COVID policies on mental health, the authoritarian tendencies observed in public health responses, and the consequences of vaccine mandates, particularly in the military. The discussion highlights the importance of learning from past mistakes to build a more trustworthy and effective public health infrastructure.

video features music by Tess Parks

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sciencefromthefringe.substack.com