The environmental movement has made something clear: For the health of the planet, humans need to stop using so much fossil fuel. Period. Many efforts to reduce fossil fuel use focus on consumer behavior -- CAFE standards, electric vehicle subsidies, and the like are designed to lessen demand for these polluting fuels. Meanwhile, billions upon billions of dollars are being invested right now in new fossil fuel extraction projects across the globe. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak with one of the environmental leaders working to stem the supply side of the equation. Today we are speaking with Tzeporah Berman of Stand.earth, and the Fossil Fuel Nonproliferation Treaty Initiative, about the work she and her colleagues are doing to keep fossil fuels in the ground. We examine the current state of pipeline projects in North America, discuss how fossil fuel companies are dealing with slimming profit margins, and look at how changing market realities are affecting the business.

Narrator | 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

Tzeporah Berman (TB) | 00:16 - We are going to need to stop expanding fossil fuels and fossil fuel infrastructure and wind it down if we're gonna keep the earth safe, because we can argue all we want about the solutions to climate change. But the atmosphere doesn't negotiate.

Narrator | 00:35 - The environmental movement has made something clear: For the health of the planet, humans need to stop using so much fossil fuel. Period. Many efforts to reduce fossil fuel use focus on consumer behavior -- CAFE standards, electric vehicle subsidies, and the like are designed to lessen demand for these polluting fuels. Meanwhile, billions upon billions of dollars are being invested right now in new fossil fuel extraction projects across the globe. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak with one of the environmental leaders working to stem the supply side of the equation. Today we are speaking with Tzeporah Berman of Stand.earth, and the Fossil Fuel Nonproliferation Treaty Initiative, about the work she and her colleagues are doing to keep fossil fuels in the ground. We examine the current state of pipeline projects in North America, discuss how fossil fuel companies are dealing with slimming profit margins, and look at how changing market realities are affecting the business.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:55 - I'm joined now on Sea Change Radio by Tzeporah Berman. She's the chairperson of the Fossil Fuel Non-Proliferation Treaty. And the International program director for Stand.Earth Tzeporah. Welcome back to Sea Change Radio.

Tzeporah Berman (TB) | 02:06 - Hi. Thanks for having me.

Alex Wise (AW) | 02:07 - So, when we spoke to you last five years ago, you were purely working for Stand.Earth, but you, you've also expanded your role and started this fossil fuel non-proliferation treaty organization. Why don't you explain what it is and also catch us up with some of the work you've been doing at Stand.Earth, if you can. 

TB | 02:27 - Sure. The Fossil Fuel Treaty actually grew out of the work that I was doing at Stand.Earth. I think like many people in North America, I spent a bunch of years trying to understand, uh, how to stop, uh, new pipelines and oil drilling and fracking that is expanding in North America. And every time we stopped a pipeline, the oil industry proposed a new one somewhere else. You know, this is one of the most powerful industries on earth. And stopping one pipeline or stopping one oil or coil project, given the extent of the climate impacts of the oil and gas industry, really isn't good enough. And it felt like some terrible game of whack-a-mole. You know, we do all this work, we do all these legal challenges and work in communities to, to support communities and their opposition to these, to these big pieces of infrastructure to try and convince our governments to use the money for cleaner, safer infrastructure. And we'd often win.

Although indigenous people are responsible for a significant proportion of sustainable land stewardship across the planet, they are often overlooked and seldom invited to the table when policy decisions are made. This week on Sea Change Radio, we are pleased to welcome indigenous economist Rebecca Adamson to discuss her pioneering work in the sustainable development space. We examine the tribal investment model she helped create, look at how increasing transparency in natural resource extraction can better protect indigenous communities, and talk about the impact she has made as a board member for both nonprofits and corporate America.

Narrator | 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise. 

Rebecca Adamson (RA) | 00:16 - What we have to do is get back to a place where our values are, what is driving the economy. This system can be reformed. 

Narrator | 00:27 - Although indigenous people are responsible for a significant proportion of sustainable land stewardship across the planet, they're often overlooked and seldom invited to the table when policy decisions are made. This week on Sea Change Radio, we're pleased to welcome indigenous economist, Rebecca Adamson, to discuss her pioneering work in the sustainable development space. We examine the tribal investment model she helped create, look at how increasing transparency and natural resource extraction can better protect indigenous communities, and talk about the impact she's made as a board member for both nonprofits and corporate America.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:25 - I am joined now on Sea Change Radio by Rebecca Adamson. She is an indigenous economist, an indigenous rights activist, a serial social entrepreneur who focuses on connecting capital markets to community. Rebecca, welcome to Sea Change. Radio. 

Rebecca Adamson (RA) | 01:39 - Thank you. Thank you, Alex.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:41 - It's a real pleasure to have you. First, why don't you explain what an indigenous economist is, and at the same time, if you can summarize your work in that space. 

Rebecca Adamson (RA) | 01:52 - Sure. And thank you so much for asking me about it. A lot of times the term indigenous economist just kinda shuts people down because it's like, what the heck could that be? Uh, but I think part of it started with my, my very first job and looking at indigenous schools and the rights for parents to be involved in the school. And as I went on and became a development practitioner in indigenous countries, what I was finding was the very way we looked at the world, the paradigm on how we perceived and organized ourselves was fundamentally different. And so when I began looking at both the schools where the purpose of the school was individual rights or individual progress, I was seeing Indian schools as being a social change agent within the community. And so there was a lot of peer tutoring. There was a collective sense in view of the education. As I got into development, it even got bigger. And when I began looking at what we called success in economic development sense, it didn't match our values. So if we saw a forest as successful, a beautiful living, breathing, large track of forest as successful, we weren't gonna be successful in the market unless we could measure board feet and, and come back in with a profit. So looking at the indigenous economy, I began really peeling apart the difference in what success was. And that's really what took me, uh, well, my whole career actually has been in that issue. And so in the sense of practice in the community, we got invol. I got in very involved in the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota, the Lakota Nation, and looking at what would it mean there? And a lot of times economic development creates, have and have nots. And what we needed was a multiple income strategy that could create the most good and benefit for the most people, because that's the fundamental purpose of an indigenous econom...

Gallup poll data show that for the past forty years, majorities of Americans consistently perceive crime to be worse "this year" than the previous year, irrespective of the tremendous downward plunge in both property and violent crime during that same period. This week on Sea Change Radio, the second part of our discussion with former San Francisco District Attorney Chesa Boudin. In this episode, we examine why "tough on crime" legislation can have such deleterious outcomes, talk about the problems with recall elections, and look at the work Boudin has embarked on at the UC Berkeley School of Law. Then, we dig into the Sea Change Radio archives to revisit a portion of our previous conversation with Kevin Ortiz, a San Franciscan who learned firsthand how hard it can be to extricate oneself from legal entanglements.

Narrator | 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio, covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

Chesa Boudin (CB) | 00:22 - What percentage of people would vote for Joe Biden if the question put to voters were, shall Joe Biden continue to be president? Totally different question than who do you want to be the president, Joe Biden or Donald Trump?

Narrator | 00:35 - Gallup poll data show that for the past forty years, majorities of Americans consistently perceive crime to be worse "this year" than the previous year, irrespective of the tremendous downward plunge in both property and violent crime during that same period. This week on Sea Change Radio, the second part of our discussion with former San Francisco District Attorney Chesa Boudin. In this episode, we examine why "tough on crime" legislation can have such deleterious outcomes, talk about the problems with recall elections, and look at the work Boudin has embarked on at the UC Berkeley School of Law. Then, we dig into the Sea Change Radio archives to revisit a portion of our previous conversation with Kevin Ortiz, a San Franciscan who learned firsthand how hard it can be to extricate oneself from legal entanglements.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:42 - I'm joined now on Sea Change Radio by Chesa Boudin. He is the executive director of the Criminal Law and Justice Center at the University of California Berkeley Law School. He's also the former district attorney of San Francisco. Chesa, welcome to Sea Change Radio.

Chesa Boudin (CB) | 01:57 - Great to be here with you.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:59 - Now if we can talk about your successor, Brooke Jenkins. In 2022 convictions were up 37% under her administration. Then 2023 convictions were up 43%. This was something that they were touting putting people in jail to fight crime, but we know that that is not the solution. How do we get people to recognize that it's better to invest in solutions that are proven to work, Chesa?

Chesa Boudin (CB) | 02:26 - Yeah, I mean, here's the problem with, with those statistics in a vacuum. The problem with those statistics is that we were not seeking to maximize conviction rates when I was in office. We were seeking to maximize accountability. 

Alex Wise (AW) | 02:37 - When I put those stats out there, that can be twisted either way. She might tout that and I might be horrified by that, but…

CB | 02:44 - Yeah, but let me tell you what's problematic. If we were saying what percentage of cases that go to trial result in a conviction, that might be marginally useful to evaluate whether or not a district attorney is doing a good job choosing trial cases and presenting evidence to juries. But if you just look at overall conviction rates, what's missing that's critically important is cases that are dismissed because of successful completion of diversion or treatment programs. 

AW | 03:13 - And resources are limited. 

CB | 03:15 - Exactly. I got a phone call last night, literally last night out of the blue from a prosecutor who used to work for me, who's still in the office. And this prosecutor said to me, you know, I wasn't a true believer when you were the DA.

If you look at the data, you'll probably notice that traditional incarceration-focused criminal justice approaches are both extremely expensive and terribly ineffective. But, defying logic, they continue to be fairly popular. And when bold thinkers try to advance more sensible approaches, they sometimes get knocked down. In 2020, just days after Chesa Boudin's narrow election to become San Francisco's District Attorney (running on a platform of progressive reform), deep-pocketed out-of-state interests began the process of recalling him. The recall was successful, and in July of 2022 Boudin was unseated. His replacement, appointed by Mayor London Breed, was a member of his own prosecutorial team, Brooke Jenkins, who happened to have been one of the local leaders of the recall campaign. This week on Sea Change Radio, we welcome Chesa Boudin to the show for the first part of a two-part, far-ranging conversation to discuss his unique childhood with two incarcerated parents, evidenced-based approaches to criminal justice, and the bitter fight that nipped his promising tenure in the bud.

Narrator | 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

Chesa Boudin (CB) | 00:19 - You can always, in any jurisdiction across the country, find some category of crime that in some period of time has gone up or has gone down. It's simply not an honest or effective way to think about either public safety or the role of prosecutors.

Narrator | 00:36 - If you look at the data, you'll probably notice that traditional incarceration-focused criminal justice approaches are both extremely expensive and terribly ineffective. But, defying logic, they continue to be fairly popular. And when bold thinkers try to advance more sensible approaches, they sometimes get knocked down. In 2020, just days after Chesa Boudin's narrow election to become San Francisco's District Attorney (running on a platform of progressive reform), deep-pocketed out-of-state interests began the process of recalling him. The recall was successful, and in July of 2022 Boudin was unseated. His replacement, appointed by Mayor London Breed, was a member of his own prosecutorial team, Brooke Jenkins, who happened to have been one of the local leaders of the recall campaign. This week on Sea Change Radio, we welcome Chesa Boudin to the show for the first part of a two-part, far-ranging conversation to discuss his unique childhood with two incarcerated parents, evidenced-based approaches to criminal justice, and the bitter fight that nipped his promising tenure in the bud.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:45 - I am joined now on Sea Change Radio by Chesa Boudin. He is the executive director of the Criminal Law and Justice Center at the University of California Berkeley Law School. He's also the former district attorney of San Francisco. Chesa, welcome to Sea Change Radio.

Chesa Boudin (CB) | 02:18 - Great to be here with you.

Alex Wise (AW) | 02:20 - Why don't you first tell us about… how did your parents being incarcerated affect your path into criminal law?

Chesa Boudin (CB) | 02:28 - My parents were both arrested when I was 14 months old, and though I don't remember that day, or even when the judge sentenced my mother to 20 years to life, or when the judge sentenced my father to 75 years to life, my earliest memories as a child are waiting in lines to go through steel gates and metal detectors just to be able to see my parents, just to be able to give them hugs. I visited my parents in jails and prisons all across New York state over decades. My mom served 22 years before she was released. My father served 40 years before he was released. And so, you know, that experience was really a defining part of my childhood. Um, it's something that separated me from the other kids in my school, something that gave me a connection to a part of the American experience that I might not otherwise have had any awareness about, which is racism,

Generally speaking, the exclusive guiding principle for corporate success seems to be making obscene amounts of money. But what if corporations recognized that a truly valuable return goes beyond wealth accumulation to include positive impacts on the environment and society? This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak to Bruce Piasecki, an expert in the social impact investing space whose new book is entitled, Wealth and Climate Competitiveness. We learn about Piasecki's personal journey, find out why he believes one corporation, Trane Technologies, is doing the right things, and examine what he means by climate competitiveness.

Narrator | 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise. 

Bruce Piasecki (BP) | 00:21 - What my work has always been about is the art of competitive frugality. That those who learn how to do more with less waste, less prejudice, less bias, are actually agile enough to see advantage before others capitalize on it.

Narrator | 00:42 - Generally speaking, the exclusive guiding principle for corporate success seems to be making obscene amounts of money. But what if corporations recognized that a truly valuable return goes beyond wealth accumulation to include positive impacts on the environment and society? This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak to Bruce Piasecki, an expert in the social impact investing space whose new book is entitled, "Wealth and Climate Competitiveness." We learn about Piasecki's personal journey, find out why he believes one corporation, Trane Technologies, is doing the right things, and examine what he means by climate competitiveness.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:40 - I am joined now on Sea Change Radio by Bruce Piasecki. He is a book writer of the New York Times bestseller, "Doing More With Less," and he also is the co-founder of the Creative Force Foundation. His latest book is "Wealth and Climate Competitiveness." Bruce, welcome to See Change Radio. 

Bruce Piasecki (BP)  | 02:01 - Very glad to be here. 

Alex Wise (AW) | 02:03 - I want to dive into one of the case studies within your book, "Wealth and Climate Competitiveness." But first, why don't you give us the basic thesis for the book. You're quite prolific, but I want to know the genesis of, or the inspiration behind the book, if you can, just in more of a general terms. 

Bruce Piasecki (BP) | 02:22 - To be supportive, it represents a sea change in me, . I had always wanted to write about prejudice, Alex, I look like a Caucasian athlete, which is my essence. But I had brothers, two of which were Puerto Rican and a Chinese sister Su-Yin Chang, and not a nuclear family. My mother, I had no father. He died when I was three. And so I witnessed the good trouble of prejudice from the time I was three throughout my first 20, 30 years of being a person in a neighborhood or in society. And so even though I had written, uh, books about famous people like Eileen Fisher or giants of social investing, I wanted to write a book from my heart about the prejudices I watched from poverty to wealth, how people's perspectives of me changed when I became exceedingly wealthy from my work. And I also wanted to write a book about how we can't solve the climate crisis unless we break down those prejudices. 

Alex Wise (AW) | 03:33 - And how does climate competitiveness play a role in that brainchild as well. 

BP | 03:39 - When I found myself working in seven person teams in 22 nations in Africa, of all things for Walmart, I started scratching my head. I had already worked for Toyota in helping them bring the hybrid powertrain and invent it here in North America. So I always was interested in doing more with less. I was always, uh, having been lucky enough to have been born poor and having climbed a series of social ladders by the time I was 25, I was shocked that some of the world's biggest, most impactful firms, Walmart and Toyota being two of many hired us for change management.

Roman Polanski’s classic 1974 film, “Chinatown,” which laid out a fictional account of California’s north-south water wars, turned out to be quite prescient. This week on Sea Change Radio, we welcome Katie Licari of Afro LA, who breaks down the ongoing tale of Los Angeles water and the impact this never-ending thirst has had on two very rural regions of California - Inyo and Mono Counties. We learn about the colonialist history of LA water rights and look at the monopolistic grip the LA Department of Water & Power holds over these counties.

Narrator | 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

Katie Licari (KL) | 00:20 - DWP has changed the rules where you can't transfer the leases more than once. If Mike Allen wanted to sell his business, the next person would have to walk away and bulldoze that business to the ground, without any chance of recouping their cost.

Narrator | 00:40 - Roman Polanski's classic 1974 film Chinatown, which laid out a fictional account of California's North South Water Wars, turned out to be quite prescient this week on Sea Change Radio. We welcome Katie Licari of Afro LA, who breaks down the ongoing tale of Los Angeles Water and the impact this never-ending thirst has had on two very rural regions of California Inyo and mono counties. We learn about the colonialist history of LA water rights and look at the monopolistic grip, the LA Department of Water and power holds over these counties. I am joined now on Sea Change Radio by Katie Licari. Katie is a reporter for Afro LA. Katie, welcome to Sea Change Radio.

Katie Licari (KL) | 01:47 - Hello. Happy to be here.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:49 - So you are in the midst of writing a multi-piece series for Afro LA, which is being syndicated on other platforms as well, like The Guardian about Los Angeles's "local" water politics, which are occurring around 300 miles away from Los Angeles. Why don't you explain the situation that exists in Inyo County and then what drew you to this project?

Katie Licari (KL) | 02:18 - I would love to. So essentially, Los Angeles gets its water from a handful of sources. They get their water from Metropolitan Water District,  which provides water from the Colorado River and the state water project up north. And then, uh, they all, and most of Southern California does get their water from metropolitan. That includes Orange County, Riverside County, San Diego County as well. But Los Angeles is very unique in that it also gets water from the Eastern Sierra, which is, up in Inyo and Mono County specifically. So water that falls to the west of the Sierra Nevada Mountains, you know, kind of by like Sequoia National Park, Yosemite, that area goes into the state water project, and then all of Southern California gets use of that. But anything that falls to the east of the Sierras becomes the property of Los Angeles. And how Los Angeles secured those water rights was in the early 19 hundreds. They bought 90% of the privately available land in Inyo county, and 30% about 30% of the land in Mono County.

Alex Wise (AW) | 03:30 - It took a lot of foresight, if you think about it, this is over a century ago, and Los Angeles was not like some huge metropolis. But this was a brainchild of Mulholland, is that right?

KL | 03:41 - Yes. This was a brainchild of Mulholland. A lot of Los Angeles boosters, including the o or sorry, the Chandler family from the famously known as owning my previous employer, the Los Angeles Times, helped boost the need for this aqueduct to compete with San Francisco, which was also looking for its own water source. They ended up damning up part of Yosemite National Park, the Hetch-Hetchy Reservoir, in order to gain their water. But through these land deals, Los Angeles was able to beat San Francisco to the punch for water availability and was able to grow more rapidly as a result. 

AW | 04:22 - So I interrupted your chronology that you were laying out.

With summer heat fast-approaching, it's a good reminder that the planet's oceans are warming fast too. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak with Elizabeth Alberts, a senior staff reporter at Mongabay about coral bleaching. We discuss how coral bleaching affects marine life, learn about bleaching events, and look at the various ways that coral reefs react to warming sea temperatures.  Then, we re-visit part of our 2023 conversation with Jeff Stoike, of Blue Action Lab, as he describes his organization’s efforts to protect fragile aquatic environments.

Narrator | 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

Elizabeth Alberts (EA) | 00:16 - It's a ray of hope. So maybe something can be done with using this coral or figuring out, you know, what makes this coral special. Like what are the elements of this coral that, that make it so resistant to heat?

Narrator | 00:30 - With summer heat fast approaching, it's a good reminder that the planets oceans are warming fast too. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak with Elizabeth Alberts, a senior staff reporter at Monga Bay about Coral Bleaching. We discuss how Coral Bleaching affects marine life, learn about bleaching events, and look at the various ways that coral reefs react to warming sea temperatures. Then we revisit our 2023 conversation with Jeff Stoike of Blue Action Lab as he describes his organization's efforts to protect fragile aquatic environments.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:18 - I am joined now on Sea Change Radio by Elizabeth Alberts. Elizabeth is a senior staff writer at Mongabay and works on their ocean desk. Elizabeth, welcome to Sea Change Radio.

Elizabeth Alberts (EA) | 01:30 - Thank You. Thanks for having me.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:31 - So we're talking to you from outside of Brussels, Belgium, is that correct?

Elizabeth Alberts (EA) | 01:35 Yes.

AW | 01:37 - So you don't have a lot of coral reefs close to Belgium, but it's one of the issues that you've been covering quite effectively for Mongabay. I'd like to discuss this piece that you wrote last month entitled "Global Coral Bleaching now underway looks set to be largest on record." It seems like this is the new normal, kind of like breaking heat records. We're going to see a lot of these type of stories, unfortunately. What are some of the areas that you, as a science reporter are looking at to see where the needle is moving and, and what are some of the big events that environmentalists should be looking at when they analyze the coral reef system In our, in our oceans?

EA | 02:22 - Well, we should just be looking at ocean heat, uh, I mean ocean heating and see temperature rise and Coral Bleaching is just a result of, of these, this rise in global temperatures, which has been, you know, it's, it's it's sea temperatures have been going up every year. This year there is a dynamic with, or there has been since last year with a, with the El Nino climate pattern, and it's causing all sorts of fluctuations and just crazy temperatures. So what's happening now is the fourth Global Coral Bleaching event. And, um, yeah, it's not looking good. I mean, you can look at  the NOAA bleaching alerts there, and, and you'll, you'll see a lot of the, the really dark red, uh, they have different levels for the type of bleaching, uh, or, or not the bleaching. It actually measures the, the seat, um, the temperature of, of the sea. So it doesn't necessarily mean that bleaching is happening there, but there's usually it means there's a very strong likelihood that bleaching is happening there. And then if you look at another tool called the Allen Coral Atlas, they use another way of measuring Coral Bleaching, which is measuring whiteness. And if you look at these maps, the reason I'm talking about this is because if you look at these maps now, it's just everywhere. It's absolutely everywhere. There aren't a lot of, well, there are some places that are,

Globally suicide accounts for about 20% of all gun-related deaths. But in the United States, the country with the highest per-capita civilian gun ownership, over 60% of deaths from firearms are suicides. What accounts for this disparity? And why do efforts at gun reform continue to fail in this country? This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak with an attorney leading the charge for smarter, saner gun laws in the U.S. Robyn Thomas is the Executive Director of the Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence. We take a look at trends over the past few years, examine disputes over the interpretation of the Second Amendment, and discuss the persistent political standstill which seems immune to tragedy.

Narrator  0:02  This is Sea Change Radio covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

Robyn Thomas  0:17  Look at the average family or community in Texas. They're not so concerned about having access to assault weapons what they'd rather have is their children safe at school. And if the messaging is done right in a way that people understand this isn't a choice between all or nothing. This isn't about, can you have guns or no guns? It's about can we implement the kinds of common sense regulations that will make our children safer and doesn't change people's ability to go hunting or sports shooting or whatever it is, that's really important to them.

Narrator 0:47  Globally, suicide accounts for about 20% of all gun related deaths. But in the United States, the country with the highest per capita civilian gun ownership, over 60% of deaths from firearms are suicides. what accounts for this disparity? And why do efforts at gun reform continue to fail in this country? This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak with an attorney leading the charge for smarter saner gun laws in the US. Robyn Thomas is the executive director of the Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence. We take a look at trends over the past few years, examined disputes over the interpretation of the Second Amendment and discuss the persistent political standstill, which seems immune to tragedy.

Alex Wise  1:57  I'm joined now on Sea Change Radio by my friend Robyn Thomas. She is the executive director of the Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence. Robyn, welcome to Sea Change Radio.

Robyn Thomas  2:06  Thank you so much for having me, Alex.

Alex Wise  2:08  So explain what the mission of the Giffords Law Center is, and maybe the evolution of the organization. It's a fairly newly dubbed nonprofit, correct?

Robyn Thomas  2:19  Yeah, the origin story goes back about 28 years, in early July of 1993, there was a mass shooting at a law firm in downtown San Francisco, the law firm of pet and Martin. And following that tragedy, the legal community in the city of San Francisco, many of whom had lost friends and colleagues decided to get together and do something about gun violence. So they formed what was then called the legal community against violence. And the mission was to corral and inspire the involvement of the legal community in the United States to help and to support the movement to reduce and prevent gun violence. Initially, they focused on what was then a federal assault weapon ban, which they succeeded in helping to pass in 1994, unfortunately, that sunset, and expired in 2004, and was not renewed, but they did have early success in accomplishing what they set out to do. And once they accomplish that, they turn their attention mostly to California laws, and then eventually to other national laws to try and create a model here in California, of what comprehensive thoughtful gun regulation could look like. I'll skip over some of the early work that they did in the successes they had, California has the strongest gun laws in the country, in large part due to the work that was done by the organization over the last now almost 30 years. And it really has created a model that other states have then stepped up to rapidly try and replicat...

This week on Sea Change Radio, the second half of our discussion with Middle East expert Juan Cole of the University of Michigan. In this episode, we talk about some of the problems presented by certain trigger words when discussing Israel and Palestine and look at the handling of recent campus protests by police and college administrators. Then, we revisit part of our 2022 conversation with Prof. Cole to examine environmental and energy-related issues in the Fertile Crescent.

Narrator | 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio, covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

Juan Cole (JC) | 00:19 - I don't see how anybody can investigate what's been going on in the Palestinian West Bank since 1967 and not come to the conclusion that this is an, is an apartheid arrangement.

Narrator | 00:33 - This week on Sea Change Radio, the second half of our discussion with Middle East expert Juan Cole of the University of Michigan. In this episode, we talk about some of the problems presented by certain trigger words when discussing Israel and Palestine and look at the handling of recent campus protests by police and college administrators. Then we revisit part of our 2022 conversation with Professor Cole to examine environmental and energy related issues in the Fertile Crescent.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:05 - I am joined now on Sea Change Radio by Juan Cole. Juan is a professor of history at the University of Michigan. Juan, welcome back to Sea Change. Radio.

Juan Cole (JC) | 01:26 - Thank you so much.

Alex Wise (AW)  | 01:27 - Let's talk about the language for a second, because I think there are these trigger words like anti-Semitism and genocide, and Zionism, which can be in the eye of the beholder used either as a cudgel, a pejorative, but also a compliment. There's a lot of wiggle room within these words, and I think they're, they're lightning rods for a lot of misunderstanding. For example, what you just said, if somebody is protesting what's happening in Gaza, does that make them anti-Semitic, some people would say, yes. You talk about Trump. There's that refuge that they constantly seek in victimization, right? He's always the victim when he's in court. He wants to be a martyr, even though he's, he's led one of the most privileged lives anyone can possibly consider. Antisemitism is also, it's used to be victims when there's not necessarily anybody being victimized in this sense, except that you happen to be Jewish and you disagree with me. It's difficult because I want to respect the people who have had to deal with a lot more antisemitism than me, for example. But I can't help but draw some parallels with the MAGA victimization and some of American Jewish people who are very quick to assign this term to people. And on the flip side, I think genocide is a trigger word, like apartheid was, it's not necessarily inaccurate, but it's a trigger word because people think, "oh, well, genocide is.. that's the holocaust. That's not war." It definitely can incite, escalate the rhetoric, I think sometimes unfairly and to a level that I think is counterproductive. 

Juan Cole (JC) | 03:17 - You're right, these words, are not used in the same way by everybody. And the differences in nuance can cause problems. There are people who would say that Zionism is a settler colonial ideology. And if you identify as a Zionist and you're identifying with, with a historic wrong, I think for a lot of American Jews who say they're Zionists, what they mean is they're proud of Albert Einstein, and they're proud of the accomplishments of, of the Jewish people by saying they're Zionists. They don't mean that Itamar Ben-Gvir is allowed to invade a Palestinian's property in the West Bank and usurp it. 

AW | 04:00 - I think it's such a hard word to generalize. I just have family members, for example, who might think they're Zionists because they think that Israel has a right to exist versus somebody who thinks that Israel has a right to the whole...

Pro-Palestinian student protests are erupting on college campuses all over the country, often resulting in aggressive responses from local law enforcement. This week on Sea Change Radio, the first half of our two-part discussion with noted Michigan University history professor and Middle East scholar, Juan Cole. We look at the Israeli attacks on Gaza, discuss the unrest it has caused on campuses around this country, and examine how the right-wing parties in both the US and Israel are trying to leverage the conflict to their own benefit.

Narrator | 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio, covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

Juan Cole (JC) | 00:19 - So they're weaponizing their position in Congress to attack, uh, the university presidents, and also they're in some ways in cahoots then with some of these very wealthy donors who are also donors to their campaigns, to use their political position to curb freedom of speech for Americans.

Narrator | 00:40 - Pro-Palestinian student protests are erupting on college campuses all over the country, often resulting in aggressive responses from local law enforcement. This week on Sea Change Radio, the first half of our two-part discussion with noted Michigan University history professor and Middle East scholar, Juan Cole. We look at the Israeli attacks on Gaza, discuss the unrest it has caused on campuses around this country, and examine how the right-wing parties in both the US and Israel are trying to leverage the conflict to their own benefit.

Alex Wise (AW) | 02:25 - I am joined now on Sea Change Radio by Juan Cole. Juan is a professor of history at the University of Michigan. Juan, welcome back to Sea Change Radio.

Juan Cole (JC) | 01:36 - Thank you so much.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:38 - I've really wanted to speak to you for quite some time. I wanted to get your perspective on the college protests that are stemming from the Israeli Hamas conflict. First, why don't you, if you can summarize these college protests and, and it's a tough question because there's a wide range of not only the scope of these protests, but on the clampdowns from campus to campus, but maybe for people who haven't really been following in that closely, kind of fill them in on what's been happening around the country in the last month or so.

Juan Cole (JC) | 02:11 - The protests are a response by these undergraduates, mainly undergraduates, to the ongoing Israeli military campaign against Gaza. I think the young people on campus are, are living this war in a way that their elders are not. They've seen the war unfold daily on their phones. They see the horrible clips of wounded, civilians, displaced people, health problems, uh, that have been imposed by the war, on TikTok, on, uh, on Instagram and, and so forth. They follow news clips on BBC and so forth. And the elders don't, I mean CNN and other major US cable news outfits, you couldn't accuse them of ignoring the war, but they haven't covered it intensively. I watch a lot of cable news, and as far as I can tell these days, it's all about Trump's trials and these inside the beltway panels that discuss things endlessly, you don't see very much news from the front.

Alex Wise (AW) | 03:22 - It's expensive to cover. It's a lot cheaper to just have a panel of people talking about Trump. 

JC | 03:27 - It's for their bottom line. Also, you know, the, the corporate news is selling advertising. I mean, it's selling us toilet paper and fast food. And you have to wonder whether scenes of, uh, wounded babies covered in flies from Gaza is, is actually going to, uh, is help their bottom line. And, uh, I think there are a lot of reasons for which they simply haven't covered this, uh, story in any intensive way. And of course, they can't with their own reporters. And that's another, uh, problem for them is, is a news organization. You get caught, you know, sometimes if you depend on somebody else's feed,