Abraham Lincoln claimed he only wanted to save the Union. So how did he end up freeing millions of enslaved Americans?

In this special Juneteenth episode, host Savannah Eccles Johnston is joined by Diana Schaub, professor emerita of political science at Loyola University Maryland and nonresident senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. A leading Lincoln scholar, Schaub brings deep insight into the political, legal, and moral complexity of emancipation.

Together, they explore how Lincoln’s views on slavery evolved, how he balanced his constitutional oath with his personal convictions, and why his famous executive order—though limited in scope—became the most consequential in American history. The episode also traces the military strategy, legal ambiguities, and political finesse that led to the 13th Amendment and the legacy of Juneteenth.

In This Episode

• (00:00:00) Opening and introduction
• (00:01:16) Lincoln’s stance on slavery and the Constitution
• (00:01:44) Slavery as a state vs. federal issue
• (00:02:18) The battle over territories and the spread of slavery
• (00:03:28) Lincoln’s strategy: Quarantine and gradual extinction
• (00:05:44) Changing Southern attitudes: Slavery as a positive good
• (00:07:14) Lincoln’s efforts with border states and gradual emancipation
• (00:08:41) Decision for executive action: Emancipation Proclamation
• (00:10:51) Scope and strategy of the Emancipation Proclamation
• (00:11:46) Reassuring border states and shaping public opinion
• (00:13:55) Effectiveness of the Emancipation Proclamation
• (00:15:26) African American troops and military impact
• (00:17:19) Legal status of the Emancipation Proclamation post-war
• (00:18:32) The need for the 13th Amendment
• (00:20:16) Lincoln’s political strategy for the 13th Amendment
• (00:22:29) Lincoln’s signature and ratification process
• (00:23:05) Failure of the first House vote
• (00:24:17) Lincoln’s sense of timing and political skill
• (00:25:28) Black troops and the right to vote
• (00:26:31) Civil War: Union vs. abolition motives
• (00:27:32) Gettysburg Address and the moral meaning of the Union
• (00:29:06) Gettysburg Address vs. Second Inaugural Address
• (00:30:31) National responsibility and postwar reconciliation
• (00:33:22) Final reflections and closing

Notable Quotes

• [00:01:45] “Slavery was regarded as a domestic institution... governed at the state level, it was considered a state matter.” — Diana Schaub
• [00:04:36] “Lincoln thought that the Founders put slavery in a position of moral and physical quarantine.” — Diana Schaub
• [00:05:07] “The Southerners took that as the death knell of slavery and were prepared to secede over it.” — Diana Schaub
• [00:14:11] “The Emancipation Proclamation assumes that slaves will take action on their own. It in fact invites them to take action on their own.” — Diana Schaub
• [00:15:45] “By the end of the Civil War, one-fifth of the Union troops were African American.” — Diana Schaub
• [00:26:46] “The Union is everything because the Union has moral worth. It has moral content.” — Diana Schaub
• [00:27:16] “Lincoln believed that if slavery were to have spread into the territories, then it would actually become perpetual.” — Diana Schaub
• [00:32:49] “The point of the theological interpretation is to try to get Americans to transcend those bad passions and move in the direction of charity.” — Diana Schaub