This Constitution

America was born with a promise and a lie. Frederick Douglass lived in the gap. How did a fugitive slave become one of the nation’s most radical constitutional thinkers? Why did he reject the Garrisonian view of the Constitution as a “covenant with death” and come to see it as anti-slavery?

In this episode of This Constitution, Matthew Brogdon sits down with Bradley  Rebeiro, law professor at Brigham Young University and author of Until the Last Yoke Is Broken: The Constitutional Vision of Frederick Douglass. Together they trace slavery and race from the Revolution through Dred Scott, the Civil War, and Reconstruction.

They begin with slavery in 1776, Somerset v. Stewart, Black enlistment in the Continental Army, Lord Dunmore’s Proclamation, and gradual emancipation in the North. The conversation turns to Black citizenship, the Naturalization Act of 1790, and Dred Scott’s claim that Blacks had “no rights which white men are bound to respect.” Rebeiro explains Douglass’s response that Taney could not change the nature of things by his words, and his view that the executive may interpret the Constitution independently.

The episode explores Douglass’s 1852 “Change of Opinion Announced,” his break with Garrisonians, and his argument that the Constitution was anti-slavery in principle but betrayed in administration. That conviction drove his push for Black enlistment and his focus on suffrage as the hallmark of citizenship.

Tune in to discover how Douglass’s “rational hope” challenges America to meet its founding principles.

In This Episode

• [00:08] Meet Brad Rebeiro
• [00:47] Slavery in 1776
• [02:25] Somerset v. Stewart and natural law
• [05:09] Black enlistment in the Revolution
• [06:49] Gradual abolition and the Hamilton–Laurens plan
• [09:33] Lord Dunmore and Britain's offer of freedom
• [11:22] No clear sides for the enslaved
• [13:56] Citizenship at the founding
• [16:23] Taney's opinion in Dred Scott
• [18:13] The dissents and the founding record
• [19:35] Black voters and the ratifying conventions
• [21:28] The 14th Amendment and birthright citizenship
• [23:33] Frederick Douglass in public life
• [25:30] Douglass answers Dred Scott
• [27:59] Douglass and departmentalism
• [29:16] From Garrisonian to constitutional abolitionist
• [30:37] "Change of Opinion Announced"
• [33:04] Why Douglass wanted Black soldiers
• [34:33] Douglass meets Lincoln
• [38:31] Suffrage after the Civil War
• [40:50] Bringing it back to the Revolution
• [43:20] Douglass's "rational hope" 

Notable Quotes

• (02:59) “Unless you have a law specifically mandating or protecting one's property in slavery, you must free that slave.” - Brad Rebeiro 
• (16:58) “I respect the founders too much to think that they meant for the Declaration to be applied to Blacks because they were enslaving them.” — Brad Rebeiro on Taney’s reasoning in Dred Scott
• (25:54) “There are certain rights that derive from the natural law that are eternal principles and that are held equally by all individuals.” - Brad Rebeiro 
• (30:49) “The Constitution, he now believes, is an anti-slavery document. It's not this covenant with death, an agreement with hell that the Garrisonians had initially espoused.” - Brad Rebeiro 
• (33:53) “What better way to show your allegiance and that your allegiance means something than showing it on the battlefield?” - Brad Rebeiro 
• (39:10) “He is almost exclusively focused on one thing, suffrage, voting rights. That for him is the hallmark of true citizenship.” - Brad Rebeiro 
• (43:25) “The Founding Fathers seized on eternal principles.” - Brad Rebeiro 
• (43:51) “The skies, they’re stormy, but they’re not rayless.” — Brad Rebeiro on Douglass’s “rational hope”
• (44:27) “They actually penned in eternal principles, aspirational principles. And that's why he called at least the American project a rational hope.” - Brad Rebeiro 

Resources and Links

This Constitution  

• Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-constitution/id1771900485
• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0IQCq5DUPWlImiAdc4t3pf?si=85085b24b55b4130
• Website: https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/projects/this_constitution_podcast.html
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@centerforconstitutionalstu8915/videos

Bradley  Rebeiro

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/bradley-rebeiro-696342a9
• Until the Last Yoke Is Broken: The Constitutional Vision of Frederick Douglass (Harvard University Press)
• https://law.byu.edu/faculty/bradley-rebeiro

Matthew Brogdon

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-brogdon-8a21bb89/
• https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/people/matthew_brogdon.html

Related Episodes 

• Season 4, Episode 11: The Newburgh Conspiracy: When Washington Saved the Republic (Again)
• Season 1, Episode 2: The Presidency (with Greg Jackson and Savannah Eccles Johnston)
• Season 4, Episode 9: Why Congress Can’t Run a War (But Won One Anyway)
• Episode on Carol Berkin discussing women’s roles during the Revolution
• Episode on the Articles of Confederation and the road to the Constitution

Could the American Revolution have ended not on a battlefield, but in a mutinous meeting at Newburgh? What happens when the army that won independence is told there’s no money to pay it? Can a republic survive when its officers have just grievances and the power to enforce them? And how did George Washington stop a coup without firing a shot, by reaching for his spectacles?

In this episode of The Constitution, Matthew Brogdon sits down with Greg Jackson, America 250 Professor in Constitutional Studies at UVU, history faculty member, National Security Studies Program fellow, and author of Been There, Done That: How Our History Shows What We Can Overcome. Greg also hosts the popular podcast History That Doesn't Suck.

Together, they explore the financial crisis behind the Newburgh Conspiracy, the role of Alexander Hamilton and Robert and Gouverneur Morris, and George Washington's extraordinary intervention at the Temple of Virtue. When Washington reaches for his spectacles and tells his officers, "You'll have to forgive me. I've grown blind in service to my country," his vulnerability changes the course of the meeting.

The conversation examines Washington's often-overlooked third Cincinnatus moment, his defense of civilian authority, and the lessons Newburgh offers about military power, public duty, and the fragile foundations of the Constitution.

Tune in to discover how close America came to losing its experiment in self-government, and how Washington helped pull it back from the brink.

In This Episode

• [00:00] Meet Greg Jackson
• [01:13] Season setup and Newburgh teaser
• [02:34] Early 1783 war context
• [03:49] The Articles of Confederation’s money problem
• [05:50] The minds behind Revolutionary War finance
• [08:12] Congress as a league
• [10:22] Empty treasury and broken promises
• [11:52] The officer pay crisis
• [15:29] Understanding the Newburgh Conspiracy
• [17:11] Washington suspects a plot
• [19:23] The tariff plan fails
• [23:12] Why coups happen
• [24:44] The Newburgh Conspiracy sparks
• [25:40] The Temple of Virtue meeting
• [27:12] Gates challenges Washington
• [28:33] Washington takes control
• [29:41] The leadership behind the scenes
• [34:20] Spectacles turn the tide
• [39:14] Congress pays with bonds
• [41:38] Speculators and the funding fight
• [44:24] Washington rejects power
• [46:06] Closing reflections

Notable Quotes

• (03:50) “Congress made all sorts of promises when things looked scary and terrifying, and they desperately needed men to fill the ranks. But now that things are looking like they’re gonna work out… it’s getting a little harder to get Congress to write those checks.” — Greg Jackson
• (04:30) “Congress has the ability to mint money, has the ability to spend money, but it has no ability to ensure it actually has money.” — Matthew Brogdon
• (08:36) “I prefer to think of it as almost 18th-century NATO… It’s a league of friendship. It’s an alliance.” — Greg Jackson on the Articles of Confederation
• (23:32) “Many of the dictatorships and coups, uh, typically originate in what feel like credible claims of injustice.” — Matthew Brogdon
• (28:41) “How inconsistent with the rules of propriety. How unmilitary. How subversive of all order and discipline. Let the good sense of the army decide.” — George Washington’s address to the officers
• (37:28) “There was nothing that George said or read in that moment. It was this raw vulnerability where these officers realized, ‘Oh, my gosh, he’s given everything.’” — Greg Jackson
• (44:57) “If George had said, ‘Officers, I’m with you. I will lead you. We are marching on Congress,’ he could have done it. He could have made himself king in this moment.” — Greg Jackson

Resources and Links

This Constitution  

• Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-constitution/id1771900485
• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0IQCq5DUPWlImiAdc4t3pf?si=85085b24b55b4130
• Website: https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/projects/this_constitution_podcast.html
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@centerforconstitutionalstu8915/videos

Greg Jackson

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/grgjackson
• https://podcasts.apple.com/ke/podcast/history-that-doesnt-suck/id1291579828
• https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Been-There-Done-That/Greg-Jackson/9781668062609
• https://www.uvu.edu/directory/employee/?id=Q0w0eG00bzA2TlNyS3dVN1R2NFBNQT09

Matthew Brogdon

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-brogdon-8a21bb89/
• https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/people/matthew_brogdon.html

Related Episodes 

• Season 1, Episode 2: The Presidency (with Greg Jackson and Savannah Eccles Johnston)
• Season 4, Episode 9: Why Congress Can’t Run a War (But Won One Anyway)
• Episode on Carol Berkin discussing women’s roles during the Revolution
• Episode on the Articles of Confederation and the road to the Constitution

The American Revolution was fought on battlefields, but victory depended on winning another fight overseas: the battle for international support. As the colonies challenged the British Empire, American diplomats had to convince foreign powers that the new nation deserved recognition, financial assistance, and a place among the nations of the world.

In this episode, Matthew Brogdon and Savannah Eccles Johnston examine the diplomatic efforts that helped secure American independence. They explore the early mission of Silas Deane, Benjamin Franklin’s remarkable success in France, John Adams’ efforts to gain support from the Netherlands, and John Jay’s crucial role in negotiating the Treaty of Paris. Along the way, they examine how these diplomats navigated competing European interests and built alliances that changed the course of the Revolution.

The hosts also explore why the founders viewed diplomacy as essential to America’s survival and why international reputation mattered so much to the new republic. While American soldiers won victories on the battlefield, Franklin, Adams, and Jay helped secure the recognition and independence that allowed the United States to become a lasting nation.

In This Episode

• [00:00] Introduction: How diplomacy won the Revolution
• [03:12] Why France joined America’s fight against Britain
• [04:41] The forgotten diplomat who helped the Revolution succeed
• [07:09] Benjamin Franklin’s mission to win over France
• [10:59] How Franklin turned charm into a diplomatic weapon
• [12:31] Why great diplomats rarely receive recognition
• [14:00] John Adams arrives in France
• [16:09] How Adams secured Dutch support for America
• [17:34] Why international reputation mattered to the founders
• [20:24] Why America connected more with the Dutch than the French
• [22:16] John Jay’s difficult mission in Spain
• [24:27] The secret negotiations that changed America’s future
• [26:58] How the Treaty of Paris secured American independence
• [28:51] Why diplomats deserve more credit for creating America
• [30:49] The founders’ warning about European power
• [31:42] The lasting lesson of America’s revolutionary diplomacy

Notable Quotes

• (04:19) “Really you can summarize it as: it’s hard to say no to Benjamin Franklin.” — Savannah Eccles Johnston
• (29:14) “American soldiers won the revolution, yes, but it’s our diplomats who win our independence and the recognition of our independence.” — Savannah Eccles Johnston
• (08:57) “Franklin is the American as far as people in Europe are concerned.” — Matthew Brogdon
• (17:34) “The founding generation really sees there being a lot of good fruit to be had from having a good reputation in the community of nations.” — Matthew Brogdon
• (31:17) “They have a sense that it’s not just Great Britain; it’s all of Europe that really poses a threat to peace.” — Matthew Brogdon

Resources and Links

This Constitution  

• Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-constitution/id1771900485
• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0IQCq5DUPWlImiAdc4t3pf?si=85085b24b55b4130
• Website: https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/projects/this_constitution_podcast.html
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@centerforconstitutionalstu8915/videos

Savannah Eccles Johnston

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/savannah-eccles-johnston-515a72198
• https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/people/savannah_eccles_johnston.html

Matthew Brogdon

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-brogdon-8a21bb89/
• https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/people/matthew_brogdon.html

Congress went to war in 1775 against the most powerful empire in the world, but could a legislative body actually run a war? With no executive departments, no Pentagon, and little experience managing a national military, the Second Continental Congress had to figure out how to transform colonial militias into a Continental Army, appoint a commander in chief, supply the troops, and direct a war that stretched across thousands of miles.

In this episode, Matthew Brogdon and Savannah Eccles Johnston examine Congress's extraordinary experiment in wartime government. They trace the creation of the Continental Army and George Washington's appointment as commander-in-chief, explore why Congress chose Washington over other experienced military officers, and examine the committee system Congress created to manage everything from military supplies to naval affairs. They also look at the disastrous invasion of Canada, where strategic theories collided with the realities of distance, supply, weather, and an inexperienced army.

The hosts then explore Congress's struggles with military appointments, political maneuvering, and the Conway Cabal, while examining Washington's careful relationship with civilian authority. Finally, they show how the Revolutionary War experience influenced the Constitution's division of war powers between Congress and the president, including the crucial distinction between Congress's power to declare war and the president's responsibility as commander-in-chief. Tune in to discover why the Revolutionary experience convinced the framers that Congress could create the conditions for war, but should not be the institution directing military operations.

In This Episode

• [00:00] Introduction: Can Congress run a war?
• [01:04] Forming the Continental Army
• [02:14] Why pick Washington?
• [04:17] Supervising the war by committee
• [05:47] The failed Canadian expedition
• [12:56] Congressional officer appointments
• [13:33] The Conway Cabal
• [16:03] Washington's independent actions
• [19:41] A new balance of power
• [21:05] Constitutional solutions: Make vs. declare war
• [24:26] The president as commander in chief
• [27:28] Conclusion: Can Congress run a war? 

Notable Quotes

• (09:15) "Canada offers big threats, potentially a big reward, and it's Congress actually that creates this two-pronged offensive strategy." — Savannah Eccles Johnston
• (11:19) "You get this theoretical debate: would it be a good thing if we went and did this? Well, that's kind of beside the point if you don't actually have the capability to do it." — Matthew Brogdon
• (12:20) "Congress is bad at directing military operations... that's what we're taking from this." — Savannah Eccles Johnston
• (17:31) "We really do owe him a debt for taking seriously the idea that the military is in subjection to the civil authority." — Matthew Brogdon
• (22:38) "Can Congress run a war? And it seems that the answer is yes, if they'll take their hands off the steering wheel when it comes to military strategy." — Savannah Eccles Johnston
• (25:45) "The Constitution, in describing the president's role, uses a military term, but it's applied to a person who holds elected office." — Matthew Brogdon
• (27:35) "Can Congress run a war? No. But Congress can create the conditions for war. That's what they can do." — Savannah Eccles Johnston

Resources and Links

This Constitution  

• Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-constitution/id1771900485
• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0IQCq5DUPWlImiAdc4t3pf?si=85085b24b55b4130
• Website: https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/projects/this_constitution_podcast.html
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@centerforconstitutionalstu8915/videos

Savannah Eccles Johnston

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/savannah-eccles-johnston-515a72198
• https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/people/savannah_eccles_johnston.html

Matthew Brogdon

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-brogdon-8a21bb89/
• https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/people/matthew_brogdon.html

The American Revolution wasn't fought only on battlefields. It unfolded in homes, farms, towns, and military camps, where women faced shortages, violence, displacement, and the enormous responsibility of keeping families and communities alive.

In this episode, Savannah Eccles Johnston speaks with historian Carol Berkin, Presidential Professor of History (Emerita) at Baruch College, and author of Revolutionary Mothers, about the essential and often-overlooked role women played in the Revolution. They explore how women became central to colonial boycotts, managed farms while men were away, worked alongside the Continental Army, carried military intelligence, and sometimes disguised themselves as men to enlist.

Carol also explains how the Revolution changed women's civic identity. Their wartime contributions challenged long-standing assumptions about women's intellectual and moral abilities and helped expand educational opportunities after independence.

Tune in to discover why the Revolution cannot be fully understood without women and how adding their experiences transforms the story from a series of military campaigns into a complex home-front war involving an entire society.

In This Episode

• (00:00) Intro
• (00:16) Introduction to Carol Berkin
• (00:59) The myth of women as passive observers
• (03:13) How the Revolution politicized women
• (07:21) Why were women essential to colonial boycotts
• (10:27) Women as spies, couriers, and participants
• (11:05) Running farms while men were at war
• (15:27) Violence against women during the Revolution
• (18:24) Why did women follow the Continental Army
• (22:42) Who the camp followers really were
• (23:45) The real story behind Molly Pitcher
• (26:10) Women disguising themselves as soldiers
• (27:00) Deborah Sampson Gannett's military service
• (29:52) Women as spies and military couriers
• (37:29) How the Revolution changed women's education
• (42:56) Three overlapping revolutions for liberty
• (44:09) How including women changes the Revolution
• (49:06) Recommended books on women and the Revolution

Notable Quotes

• (00:59) “The first thing I'd like to tackle is this myth of women as passive observers of a revolutionary war.” — Savannah Eccles Johnston
• (08:17) “If women refused to join the boycott, we would still be singing Hail to the King.” — Carol Berkin
• (29:52) “The idea that the war itself didn't involve women is nonsense.” — Carol Berkin
• (42:56) “The revolution was a woman's war as well as a man's war.” — Carol Berkin
• (44:09) “When you include women in the story of the revolution, it changes the nature of the revolution itself.” — Savannah Eccles Johnston
• (45:31) “You're giving more than half the country an ability to see themselves in the American Revolution and to feel like they're part of it.” — Savannah Eccles Johnston

Resources and Links

This Constitution  

• Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-constitution/id1771900485
• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0IQCq5DUPWlImiAdc4t3pf?si=85085b24b55b4130
• Website: https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/projects/this_constitution_podcast.html
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@centerforconstitutionalstu8915/videos

Savannah Eccles Johnston

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/savannah-eccles-johnston-515a72198
• https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/people/savannah_eccles_johnston.html

Carol Berkin

• Biography: https://www.womenshistory.org/about-us/supporters-and-sponsors/museum-advisory-council/carol-berkin-phd
• Books: https://www.amazon.com/Books-Carol-Berkin/s?rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3ACarol%2BBerkin

The American Revolution wasn't won by ideals alone. It required an army. But how do you build a fighting force from scratch when your citizens believe standing armies are the tools of tyrants? And how does that ragtag collection of farmers, apprentices, and adventurers end up creating something far more lasting than military victory: a shared national identity?

In this episode, Matthew Brogdon and Savannah Eccles Johnston examine the extraordinary challenge of forging the Continental Army. They trace the journey from the spontaneous militia mobilization around Boston to Washington's desperate Christmas gamble at Trenton, from the crisis of expiring enlistments to Baron von Steuben's legendary training regimen. 

Along the way, they explore the remarkable story of Deborah Sampson, who served 17 months disguised as a man, and consider what motivated ordinary people to endure years of deprivation, disease, and danger.

The hosts also examine Washington's deliberate strategy to transcend regional loyalties by mixing regiments from different states, establishing uniform drills and symbols, and creating an institution where shared suffering forged common purpose. They reveal how this experience shaped Washington's postwar vision for a national university and federal city, and why the Continental Army became the training ground for America's first generation of national leaders.

Tune in to discover how a desperate, underfed, perpetually dissolving army became the crucible of American nationhood, and why Washington believed that what worked for the army could work for the entire country.

In This Episode

• (00:00) Introduction
• (00:16) Creating an American identity through the Army
• (01:55) Why the Minutemen couldn't win a long war
• (04:03) The challenges of short-term enlistments
• (04:34) How Revolutionary soldiers differed across the colonies
• (07:53) Why Americans chose to fight
• (08:11) Deborah Sampson's extraordinary military service
• (11:34) Honor, duty, and the motivations of Revolutionary soldiers
• (14:52) Why recruiting the Continental Army remained difficult
• (16:13) Washington's struggle to keep his army together
• (17:18) The Delaware campaign and an army on the brink
• (20:32) Incentives, pensions, and recruiting soldiers
• (21:25) Drafts, substitutes, and military service
• (23:00) Building a national army from state militias
• (24:13) Washington's strategy for creating unity
• (26:39) Shared sacrifice and the birth of American identity
• (27:03) How the Continental Army shaped future national leaders
• (28:22) Washington's vision for a national university
• (30:07) Why the Continental Army made Washington the Father of the Nation
• (30:25) Final reflections

Notable Quotes

• (01:25) "This notion of the yeoman farmer... steps out into public life to take part in a militia and defend the community." — Matthew Brogdon
• (11:34) "There's simply the bare fact of the notion that it's a matter of honor, to defend your home, your country." — Matthew Brogdon
• (13:08) "People don't risk their lives for things they don't believe in... but young men especially don't necessarily need good reasons to go to war." — Matthew Brogdon
• (16:08) "Long-term, there are good reasons why enlistments struggle. But there's also a difficulty in keeping soldiers at all." — Savannah Eccles Johnston
• (18:12) "Washington's own troops are going to have little reason to stick around if it looks like all we're going to do is lose." — Matthew Brogdon
• (23:17) "You have to rely on states to make this army function, but you're trying to make it a national army... into a national institution." — Savannah Eccles Johnston
• (26:43) "If you put a bunch of Americans from different parts of the country... into one thing, and you just make them suffer next to each other, you can actually forge a national identity." — Savannah Eccles Johnston
• (29:27) "The Union wants to fly apart. And the question is, what kind of adhesive is going to hold it together?" — Matthew Brogdon
• (30:13) "Washington's Father of the Nation, not just as first president, but as the man who first forges a national American identity... with the army itself." — Savannah Eccles Johnston

Resources and Links

This Constitution  

• Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-constitution/id1771900485
• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0IQCq5DUPWlImiAdc4t3pf?si=85085b24b55b4130
• Website: https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/projects/this_constitution_podcast.html
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@centerforconstitutionalstu8915/videos

Savannah Eccles Johnston

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/savannah-eccles-johnston-515a72198
• https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/people/savannah_eccles_johnston.html

Matthew Brogdon

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-brogdon-8a21bb89/
• https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/people/matthew_brogdon.html

The Southern Campaign is one of the most overlooked turning points of the American Revolution. This episode asks a sharper question: what happened when the fight for independence stopped looking like British regulars against American patriots and started looking like Americans fighting Americans?

In this episode of This Constitution, Savannah Eccles Johnston and Matthew Brogdon examine why the British turned south after failing to defeat Washington in the North. The British believed the South offered better odds because of loyalist support, economic dependence on British trade, and cultural ties to England. At first, the strategy seemed to work. Savannah fell, Charleston was captured, and Camden shattered much of the Southern Continental Army.

But the South changed the character of the war. Johnston and Brogdon explore how the Revolution became deeply personal, dividing families, communities, and regions between loyalists and patriots. They discuss Southern honor culture, violent reprisals, backcountry resistance, and why some historians describe this period as America’s first civil war.

Tune in to learn how Nathanael Greene, Daniel Morgan, and the militia fighters helped reverse British momentum. The episode covers Kings Mountain, Cowpens, Guilford Courthouse, and the collapse of Cornwallis’ Southern strategy. It reveals one of the Revolution’s clearest lessons: holding territory is not the same as controlling a people.

In This Episode

• (00:00) Podcast Introduction
• (00:12) Welcome to This Constitution
• (00:16) Why does the episode focus on the Southern Campaign
• (00:30) How the Revolution became more like a civil war
• (00:54) Why the British strategy in the South failed
• (01:00) Why the British pivoted south after Saratoga
• (01:49) Loyalists, royalists, and Tory support in the South
• (03:35) Southern elites and British cultural ties
• (04:28) The South’s economic dependence on British trade
• (05:30) Rice, indigo, tobacco, and the Southern economy
• (05:48) Cornwallis and early British success
• (06:00) Savannah, Charleston, Camden, and American defeat
• (08:31) Patriots vs. loyalists in the South
• (09:04) Honor culture, violence, and family reprisals
• (12:34) Why the British overestimated loyalist support
• (13:11) Nathanael Greene takes command
• (14:09) Washington’s Fabian strategy moves south
• (15:14) Kings Mountain and the Overmountain Men
• (18:25) Cowpens and Daniel Morgan’s victory
• (20:28) Why Cowpens changed the psychology of the war
• (21:48) Guilford Courthouse and costly British victory
• (22:06) The collapse of the Southern strategy
• (22:38) Cornwallis moves toward Virginia and Yorktown
• (26:43) Why the Southern Campaign deserves more attention
• (27:44) Closing Credits

Notable Quotes

• (00:30) “It becomes much more like a civil war than a revolutionary war.” — Savannah Eccles Johnston
• (05:15) “There are lots of reasons to think culturally, to think in terms of the elite and the society there, that you would have affinity with the British.” — Matthew Brogdon
• (09:04) “The American South is a bit of an honor culture.” — Matthew Brogdon
• (14:21) “We cannot win large-scale engagements.” — Savannah Eccles Johnston
• (21:03) “The most compelling argument you can make in this kind of debate is a victory on the battlefield.” — Matthew Brogdon
• (27:37) “If you don’t win, you can’t make a new constitutional order.” — Matthew Brogdon

Resources and Links

This Constitution  

• Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-constitution/id1771900485
• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0IQCq5DUPWlImiAdc4t3pf?si=85085b24b55b4130
• Website: https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/projects/this_constitution_podcast.html
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@centerforconstitutionalstu8915/videos

Savannah Eccles Johnston

• linkedin.com/in/savannah-eccles-johnston-515a72198
• https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/people/savannah_eccles_johnston.html

Matthew Brogdon

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-brogdon-8a21bb89/
• https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/people/matthew_brogdon.html

Are Americans Declaration People or Constitution People?

The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are two of America’s most important founding documents, but this episode asks a deeper civic question: which one actually defines who Americans are?

In this Fourth of July episode, Savannah Eccles Johnston is joined by Dr. Leah Murray, Brady Presidential Distinguished Professor of Political Science and Philosophy and Director of the Walker Institute of Politics & Public Policy at Weber State University. Together, they explore whether Americans are more emotionally shaped by the Declaration’s ideals or more practically shaped by the Constitution’s institutions.

The conversation examines the Declaration as the “heart” of America and the Constitution as its “head.” The Declaration gives the country its moral purpose: equality, liberty, natural rights, and the pursuit of happiness. The Constitution gives the country a structure for living together despite disagreement, ambition, self-interest, and competing visions of the good.

Tune in to learn why the Fourth of July is not just a celebration of independence, but a reminder of the truths America is still trying to live up to. Johnston and Murray discuss civic education, local politics, legitimate disagreement, the meaning of equality, and why Americans may need to recover the founding ideas they have forgotten.

In This Episode

• (00:00) Podcast Introduction
• (00:39) Introduction to Dr. Leah Murray
• (01:17) Are Americans Declaration people or Constitution people?
• (01:32) The Declaration as America’s heart and the Constitution as its head
• (03:02) Why Americans connect more emotionally with the Declaration
• (05:25) How the Constitution responded to the failures of early American government
• (07:30) Rights, civic behavior, and the Bill of Rights
• (10:24) Do Americans still believe in universal truths?
• (13:00) Why citizenship has to be taught
• (13:59) Equality, opportunity, and America’s unfinished work
• (15:51) What “the pursuit of happiness” really means
• (18:03) Do Americans actually like representative democracy?
• (20:00) Whether Americans still believe disagreement is legitimate
• (22:19) Why constitutional government depends on local relationships
• (24:32) What happens when the Declaration and Constitution clash
• (27:18) Why America needs both founding documents
• (31:19) What every American should do on the Fourth of July

Notable Quotes

• (02:23) “To me, the Declaration is the heart, the Constitution is the head, and both of these are right.” — Dr. Leah Murray
• (09:12) “The Constitution is my favorite... but when you ask me what America is and where we resonate, I think it’s the Declaration.” — Dr. Leah Murray
• (13:07) “Citizenship has to be taught. It is a habit.” — Savannah Eccles Johnston
• (17:35) “It’s not just I get to do whatever I want. It’s about being the best version of myself in the community I find myself in.” — Dr. Leah Murray
• (18:34) “It’s not a concierge planet.” — Dr. Leah Murray
• (22:21) “A return to local to be able to save our ability to be a constitutional people.” — Savannah Eccles Johnston
• (27:29) “The Constitution is nothing without the beauty of the Declaration, and the Declaration is just noise without the vehicle.” — Dr. Leah Murray
• (31:30) “They need to know the Declaration of Independence, and if on the Fourth of July all they’re doing is lighting off fireworks and not reading that document, they are doing themselves a disservice.” — Dr. Leah Murray

Resources and Links

This Constitution  

• Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-constitution/id1771900485
• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0IQCq5DUPWlImiAdc4t3pf?si=85085b24b55b4130
• Website: https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/projects/this_constitution_podcast.html
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@centerforconstitutionalstu8915/videos

Dr. Leah Murray

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leah-murray-wsu
• Bio: https://www.weber.edu/lmurray/

Savannah Eccles Johnston

• linkedin.com/in/savannah-eccles-johnston-515a72198
• https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/people/savannah_eccles_johnston.html

What Happens When an Army Freezes and a Government Can’t Supply It?

Valley Forge is remembered as one of the great symbols of American endurance, but this episode asks a deeper constitutional question: what happens when a revolution depends on a government too weak to supply its own army?

In this episode, co-hosts Savannah Eccles Johnston and Matthew Brogdon tell the story of the Continental Army’s brutal winter after the British captured Philadelphia. Washington chose to camp just 18 miles from the occupied city, close enough to pressure the British but far enough to avoid surprise attack. What followed was a six-month test of survival: 9,000 soldiers entered, thousands lived in cramped log cabins, and hunger, disease, cold, and supply failures pushed the army to the edge.

The episode explores what Valley Forge revealed about the weakness of Congress, the limits of state cooperation, and the danger of relying on civic virtue when food, clothing, and money disappear. Johnston and Brogdon also discuss Martha Washington’s role in restoring morale, the performance of Cato, Baron Friedrich von Steuben’s transformation of the army, and how Black soldiers’ service helped shape Washington’s changing views on slavery.

Tune in to learn why Valley Forge was not only a military turning point, but also a constitutional warning. The army survived, but barely, and the lessons learned there would help shape the case for a stronger national government.

In This Episode

• (00:00) Introduction
• (00:22) Why Valley Forge became an iconic American story
• (01:32) The British capture of Philadelphia
• (03:43) Why armies stopped fighting during winter
• (04:34) Washington responds to critics
• (05:16) Why Washington chose Valley Forge
• (06:28) 9,000 men enter, and 7,000 come out
• (08:04) Hunger, disease, and brutal conditions
• (09:23) Why Congress could not supply the army
• (13:14) Washington’s circular letter to the states
• (16:26) Farmers, profit, and civic virtue
• (18:15) Martha Washington arrives
• (21:53) Cato and republican virtue
• (27:08) Baron von Steuben disciplines the army
• (31:00) Black soldiers join the Continental Army
• (35:18) Final lessons from Valley Forge

Notable Quotes

• (00:37) “Valley Forge... is this kind of iconic moment in American history of suffering and perseverance and ultimate triumph.” — Savannah Eccles Johnston
• (00:56) “It’s also a moment that rings warning bells about the weakness of Congress.” — Savannah Eccles Johnston
• (17:32) “The profit motive is not always patriotic.” — Matthew Brogdon
• (35:32) “What emerges from Valley Forge is not the same as what went into Valley Forge.” — Savannah Eccles Johnston

Resources and Links

This Constitution  

• Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-constitution/id1771900485
• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0IQCq5DUPWlImiAdc4t3pf?si=85085b24b55b4130
• Website: https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/projects/this_constitution_podcast.html
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@centerforconstitutionalstu8915/videos

Savannah Eccles Johnston

• linkedin.com/in/savannah-eccles-johnston-515a72198
• https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/people/savannah_eccles_johnston.html

Matthew Brogdon

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-brogdon-8a21bb89/
• https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/people/matthew_brogdon.html

When we talk about America's founding, we tend to jump straight from the Declaration of Independence to the Constitution. But what held the country together in the eleven years between? What happened after independence was declared? Who ran the war? Who paid for the army? And how did thirteen quarreling states manage to hold together long enough to win?

In this episode, co-hosts Savannah Eccles Johnston and Matthew Brogdon dive into the much-maligned Articles of Confederation, the nation’s first written constitution. They ask whether the Articles deserve their bad reputation, or whether they were actually a surprisingly effective revolutionary government. Topics include the tension between “perpetual union” and state sovereignty, the five-year ratification battle over western lands, the complete absence of an executive or judiciary, and how George Washington’s personal restraint prevented a military coup.

The episode also explores the Articles’ genuine successes: the Northwest Ordinance, which governed slavery in the territories for 70 years, the creation of ad hoc executive departments run by people like Robert Morris, and the lessons that shaped the 1787 Constitution. Along the way, Johnston and Brogdon debate the European Union as a modern analogy, mourn the death of geography education, and ask whether a government that can’t tax but can win a war deserves more credit than it gets.

Tune in to learn why the Articles of Confederation, clunky, slow, and underpowered, might just be the most underrated constitution in American history.

In This Episode

• (00:00) Introduction
• (01:02) What problem were the Articles designed to solve?
• (02:08) Drafting the Articles of Confederation
• (03:44) Was America building a nation or a league of states?
• (04:15) “Perpetual union” versus state sovereignty
• (05:24) Why federalism was still an unfinished idea
• (06:23) Building a government while fighting a war
• (07:12) Comparing the Articles to the European Union
• (09:02) The rise of an American identity distinct from Europe
• (10:42) The structure of the Confederation Congress
• (11:28) Why Congress struggled to function effectively
• (13:22) Why deliberative assemblies struggle during wartime
• (16:05) The dangers of having no executive branch
• (18:08) Committees, enforcement, and the limits of the Articles
• (19:02) How America still managed to win the Revolution
• (19:41) Why ratification took five years
• (20:22) Western land disputes and Maryland’s veto
• (21:02) Did the Declaration itself function as a constitution?
• (22:24) Sea-to-sea charters and the fight over western territories
• (24:03) Why geography matters in civic education
• (25:56) The Confederation Congress and Western Lands Policy
• (28:11) Fear of tyranny versus fear of ineffective government
• (28:35) Madison, factions, and the logic of federalism
• (31:19) Did the Articles accomplish their real purpose?
• (32:01) The Northwest Ordinance and territorial expansion
• (33:32) Why foreign affairs exposed the Articles’ weaknesses
• (34:04) “The plane did fly,”  reassessing the Articles
• (34:17) George Washington and civilian control of the military
• (35:53) How America avoided military dictatorship
• (37:04) The ad hoc executive departments of the Revolution
• (37:53) Final reflections on America’s first government  

Notable Quotes

• (01:02) "If you're going to win a war, you have to have a government. Armies don't equip themselves." — Matthew Brogdon
• (06:18) "They really are building the plane while flying it. They are engaged in the act of constructing these institutions in the middle of fighting a war." — Matthew Brogdon
• (12:41) "The Articles of Confederation treated things as though this was a league of sovereign states — and then it gives the confederation responsibilities that belong to a government, not just a diplomatic assembly." — Matthew Brogdon
• (18:01) "A government without an executive and a judicial power to carry the laws into execution is like a body without arms and legs to act and move." — Matthew Brogdon, quoting Madison
• (19:21) "It was a fairly effective revolutionary government, as revolutionary governments go. You can think of some really not successful ones." — Savannah Eccles Johnston
• (34:05) "Congress does build the plane while flying it, but the plane does fly — it's a bit of a clunker, but it got the job done." — Matthew Brogdon
• (35:50) "At least part of what allowed them to be successful was Washington's restraint." — Savannah Eccles Johnston
• (36:29) "Without people making the right choices, without people taking virtuous action, the best-laid structure is not going to save you from disaster or tyranny." — Matthew Brogdon
• (37:59) "They did the job they were supposed to do. They didn't dissolve into anarchy. They didn't become a tyranny — because of the civic virtue of George Washington." — Savannah Eccles Johnston

Resources and Links

This Constitution  

• Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-constitution/id1771900485
• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0IQCq5DUPWlImiAdc4t3pf?si=85085b24b55b4130
• Website: https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/projects/this_constitution_podcast.html
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@centerforconstitutionalstu8915/videos

Savannah Eccles Johnston

• linkedin.com/in/savannah-eccles-johnston-515a72198
• https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/people/savannah_eccles_johnston.html

Matthew Brogdon

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-brogdon-8a21bb89/
• https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/people/matthew_brogdon.html

Recommended Reading

• The Articles of Confederation: The First Constitution of the United States (primary source)
• Ratification by Pauline Maier
• The Quartet by Joseph J. Ellis