In 1995 Rev. Jim Mitulski became HIV positive -- what's known as seroconversion. It was 14 years into the epidemic and people knew what HIV/AIDS was, how you got it, and how you could prevent it. And when Jim got sick, he got very sick. What was it like to become ill so publicly? How would the church and the community respond? And what could Jim possibly preach about on his first Sunday back?

“My Soul Doth Magnify” is from Camille Saint-Saens’ Christmas Oratorio, Op. 12, 1858.

“The 23rd Psalm (Dedicated to My Mother)” is by Bobby McFerrin. 

The biblical story of the death of the prophet Elijah is in Second Kings, chapter 2. 

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-8.

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. 

Thanks to Ed Wolf and Frank DePelisi for talking us through the issues around HIV status and sero-sorting in the mid-1990s. 

And thanks to Bobby McFerrin and Linda Goldstein for use of “The 23rd Psalm (Dedicated to My Mother).” You can see McFerrin conducting his VOCAbuLarieS singers singing the piece here. 

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  

Some links to good groups:

National Resource Center on HIV and Aging – resources for older adults living with HIV. 

Surviving Voices – an oral history documentary project on how different communities have experienced HIV and AIDS. The most recent focuses on lifelong and long-term HIV survivors. 

Let’s Kick Ass – AIDS Survivors Syndrome – support for long-term HIV survivors. 

Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen.

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When the Metropolitan Community Church was founded in the late sixties, it was one of the first gay positive churches in America. When AIDS hit, it became a refuge for people who were sick and those who were mourning them. 

In this episode, Anna talks to researcher Lynne Gerber, about finding boxes of cassettes under the church floor in an MCC church in San Francisco, and how those recordings of sermons and songs became a podcast about finding community and comfort during a crisis. 

Lynne Gerber is the host of the 10-episode series When We All Get to Heaven.

Death, Sex & Money is now produced by Slate! To support us and our colleagues, please sign up for our membership program, Slate Plus! Members get ad-free podcasts, bonus content on lots of Slate shows, and full access to all the articles on Slate.com. Sign up today at slate.com/dsmplus.

And if you’re new to the show, welcome. We’re so glad you’re here. Find us and follow us on Instagram and you can find Anna’s newsletter at annasale.substack.com. Our new email address, where you can reach us with voice memos, pep talks, questions, critiques, is [email protected].

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Between the drastic budget cuts and provisions in the Big Beautiful Bill, the Trump administration has found a way to drain Planned Parenthood and other reproductive health centers and cut off access to abortion services—as well as any other health care those clinics provided. 

Guests:  Shefali Luthra, reproductive health reporter at The 19th, author of Undue Burden: Life and Death Decisions in Post-Roe America.

George Hill, President and CEO of Maine Family Planning.

Want more What Next? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and across all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen.

Podcast production by Elena Schwartz, Paige Osburn, Anna Phillips, Madeline Ducharme, and Rob Gunther.

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On this episode: Lucy Lopez, Elizabeth Newcamp, and Zak Rosen are joined by mother-daughter writing team Leslie and Lindsey Glass. They share their estrangement and reconnection that led to their book The Mother Daughter Relationship Makeover. They give advice for how to deal with toxic personalities around the dinner table and at parties, talk about when estrangement might be the answer, and more.

But first, they share their latest Triumphs and Fails. Lucy has an explosion (literally), Elizabeth is in a new country, and Zak learns the local bus routes.

This podcast is produced by Rosemary Belson and Cheyna Roth. 

Join us on Facebook and email us at [email protected] to ask us new questions, tell us what you thought of today’s show, and give us ideas about what we should talk about in future episodes. You can also call our phone line: (646) 357-9318.

If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get to hang out with us on the Plus Playground every week for a whole additional grab-bag of content — and you’ll get an ad-free experience across the network. And you’ll also be supporting the work we do here on Care and Feeding. Sign up now at slate.com/careplus – or try it out on Apple Podcasts.

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Scott and Bruce were the hottest couple in church. Scott, a hula dancer, seemed destined for Bruce, the hunky “lumbersexual,” and the church delighted when they got together. Their brief love affair sparkled before Bruce got sick and died. Their story is one of multiple “dress rehearsals”– when friends, family and lovers went through AIDS with their loved ones wondering who would be next and sometimes knowing it might be you. 

You can see Scott perform in a 1992 InterPlay piece called “God, Sex and Power” here. He’s the one with the bandaids on his knees. 

Singing Positive is a two-part documentary film about the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus (SFGMC) and its experience with AIDS that spans 15 years. The first film, which featured Scott, was produced in 1992 and is hard to find online. The second film, produced in 2009, saw the filmmakers return to SFGMC to explore the impact of AIDS on the chorus over time. The 2009 film, with clips of Scott from the first film, is here. And you can watch some amazing SFGMC performances on their YouTube channel here. 

Scott’s San Francisco hula school was Nā Lei Hulu I Ka Wēkiu. They celebrated their 40th anniversary in 2025. Scott’s teacher and friend, Kumu Patrick Makuakāne is in the 2023 cohort of MacArthur Fellows. His recent work includes Māhū, a work by and with trans hula performers.  

On the MCC in Hawai’i, see the Queer Histories of Hawai’i’s story here. 

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-7 . 

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. 

“Spirit of the Living God” is by Daniel Iverson.

“In the Garden,” also known as “I Come to the Garden Alone” is by C. Austin Miles. It’s the favorite hymn of many a Christain mother, aunt, and grandmother. The soloist is Juliette Galuteria, Scott Galuteria and Brickwood Galuteria’s mother 

“God Prepare Me to Be a Sanctuary” is by Randy Scruggs and John Thompson.  

Special thanks to the friends and experts who helped us think through this episode. 

Frank DeLuca

William Salit and Stan Stone

Dr. Rachel Gross

Dr. Christopher Cantwell

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  

Some links to good groups:

The Hawai’i Health and Harm Reduction Center – reducing the harm and fighting the stigma of HIV in Hawai’i. 

International EMS and Firefighter Pride Alliance – courage over adversity. 

Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Even though the documentary Tig Notaro produced won the Festival Favorite Award at Sundance, she did not spend the festival hobnobbing with industry types. Instead she stayed holed up at the Airbnb she rented with friends and the film's crew. "We were calling it Snuggle Down because we were all sitting around the fire and having tea and just laughing so hard." Among the people at Snuggle Down was the subject of the documentary, poet Andrea Gibson, who was dying of ovarian cancer.

In this episode, Tig describes meeting Andrea, what made them click creatively, and how making a documentary about the end of Andrea's life brought an already tight-knit group of friends closer together. 

Watch: Come See Me In the Good Light

And we also want to acknowledge the passing of disability activist Alice Wong. She died on Friday in San Francisco at age 51. Alice and Anna first talked in 2020. 

Listen here: Alice Wong On Ruckuses, Rage And Medicaid

Podcast production by Andrew Dunn

Death, Sex & Money is now produced by Slate! To support us and our colleagues, please sign up for our membership program, Slate Plus! Members get ad-free podcasts, bonus content on lots of Slate shows, and full access to all the articles on Slate.com. Sign up today at slate.com/dsmplus.

And if you’re new to the show, welcome. We’re so glad you’re here. Find us and follow us on Instagram and you can find Anna’s newsletter at annasale.substack.com. Our new email address, where you can reach us with voice memos, pep talks, questions, critiques, is [email protected].

Get 50% Off Monarch Money, the all-in-one financial tool at ⁠www.monarchmoney.com/DSM⁠

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On this episode: Lucy Lopez, Elizabeth Newcamp, and Zak Rosen share their experiences with postpartum depression. Then, Elizabeth is joined by Danielle Learner to talk about Danielle’s experience with postpartum depression, her activism to raise awareness on the issue, and a lot of tips and advice for people who struggle with postpartum depression or know someone struggling. 

Podcast production by Cheyna Roth 

Join us on Facebook and email us at [email protected] to ask us new questions, tell us what you thought of today’s show, and give us ideas about what we should talk about in future episodes. You can also call our phone line: (646) 357-9318.

If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get to hang out with us on the Plus Playground every week for a whole additional grab-bag of content — and you’ll get an ad-free experience across the network. And you’ll also be supporting the work we do here on Care and Feeding. Sign up now at slate.com/careplus – or try it out on Apple Podcasts.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Sunday after Magic Johnson announced his HIV-status, Jim Mitulski preached a sermon on being tired of people dying. We’re sharing it as an interlude, a pause, and an immersion into one moment in AIDS’ bleak midwinter. 

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/interlude.

In the sermon Rev. Mitulski refers to ARC. That means AIDS-Related Complex, a diagnostic category meant to indicate an earlier stage of HIV infection than AIDS. It was common in the period to hear references to both AIDS and ARC. 

“Old Devil Time” is by Pete Seeger. The AIDS verses are by MCC San Francisco congregant Paul Francis. 

You can see Magic Johnson's press release, announcing his HIV status here. 

The biblical passage Rev. Mitulski is preaching on is John 11:1-44.

Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen.

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. 

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  

Some links to good groups:

AIDS Healthcare Foundation – provides medical care and support for people living with HIV/AIDS and preventative care for people at risk for contracting it. 

The Magic Johnson Foundation – founded to address HIV/AIDS. Expanded to include education and community engagement. 

San Francisco AIDS Foundation – a place to seek information about HIV. 

POZ Magazine – a place to learn everything else about HIV (information included).
Save AIDS Research – their recent, epic 24 hours to Save Research conference with all the latest HIV research is available on YouTube through this site.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode: Lucy Lopez, Elizabeth Newcamp, and Zak Rosen are joined by Sydney Bassard from The Listening SLP to dig into everything you need to know about hearing loss, practical speech, language, and literacy with your kids. 

But first, Lucy weighs in on the great flower girl controversy. 

Podcast production by Cheyna Roth.

Join us on Facebook and email us at [email protected] to ask us new questions, tell us what you thought of today’s show, and give us ideas about what we should talk about in future episodes. You can also call our phone line: (646) 357-9318.

If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get to hang out with us on the Plus Playground every week for a whole additional grab-bag of content — and you’ll get an ad-free experience across the network. And you’ll also be supporting the work we do here on Care and Feeding. Sign up now at slate.com/careplus – or try it out on Apple Podcasts.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

San Francisco’s gay/lesbian community in the 1980s wasn’t just facing an AIDS crisis, they also struggled against ongoing  anti-gay violence. In 1989, in the midst of a campaign to legally establish anti-gay violence as a hate crime, MCC San Francisco made headlines when their AIDS minister was attacked in her home. The city, the police department, and the LGBTQ community rallied around the church and the minister. And when they finally solved the puzzle of who did it, the answer shocked the church. 

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-6.

The voices from the service after the first attack include

Rev. Troy Perry, Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches – “If you come for one of us, you come for all of us.” 

Kevin Calegari, Dignity San Francisco – “Somebody by the name of Jesus…”

Harry Britt, San Francisco City Supervisor – “It hurts to be reminded of the power of evil.”

Gayle Orr-Smith, representative of the Mayor’s Office – “I am moved when I hear you say you are an angry people.” 

Rev. Duane Wilkerson, United Methodist Church – “But in the event that doubt has crept into your mind…” 

Rev. Troy Perry, Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches – “And to the enemies who are attacking us…”

“The Call” is by George Herber with music by Vaughan Williams. The soloist is Bob Crocker.

“Nearer My God to Thee” is by Sarah Flowers Abrams.

Some links to good groups

Community United Against Violence – still working for safe communities for queer people. 

National Alliance on Mental Illness LGBTQI Information Page

The Shanti Project - is a pioneering nonprofit that builds human connections to reduce isolation, enhance health and well-being, and improve quality of life. It innovated enduring models of attentive companionship to people facing the end of life through their work during the height of the AIDS crisis. 

The Trevor Project – the leading suicide prevention and crisis intervention non-profit organization for LGBTQ+ young people. 

Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen.

Production credits: 

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. 

Special thanks to Kelsy Pacha, Dr. Janis Whitlock, and Dr. Mary Hunt for consulting with us about this episode. 

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible. 

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