Are your congregants' jobs a distraction from their discipleship, or one of the main places it actually happens? Matt Rusten, president of Made to Flourish and editor-in-chief of Common Good Magazine, joins Markus to explore the theology of work and what it looks like for pastors and churches to help their people see their everyday jobs as spiritually significant.

This Episode's Highlights Include:

• Why the Bible introduces God as a maker before it describes him as holy or merciful
• What it means that every person in your pews has a "sphere of dominion" in their work
• How work forms your congregation over time, and how it can quietly deform them
• Why Jesus used work as the backdrop for most of his parables
• Why John the Baptist sent tax collectors and soldiers back into their same jobs
• Practical ways your church can help people connect faith and work: small groups, "This Time Tomorrow" interviews, and pastoral workplace visits

Relevant Resources and Links:

• Pastoring for Monday by Matt Rusten
• Made to Flourish

RELATED EPISODES:

• 288. Leadership That Smells Like the Gospel, with Jason Jensen
• 272. Beyond Church Revitalization, with Josh Hayden
• 247. The Kingdom of God as Present Reality

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Angela Weszely is the founder and CEO of ProGrace and the author of Becoming ProGrace: Expanding the Abortion Conversation Beyond Life Versus Choice. Twenty-one years ago she took a job at a Christian pregnancy center in Chicago and immediately felt the tension between what the organization said it believed and how it actually treated women. That tension became a decade-long journey that led her to found ProGrace. In this conversation, Angela and Markus explore what it looks like for the church to actually resemble Jesus in how it responds to abortion and unintended pregnancy.

This Episode's Highlights Include:

• Angela's journey from a legalistic upbringing into leading a Christian pregnancy organization
• The four theological frameworks Christians get wrong about abortion: equal value and dignity, political identity over Christian identity, grace, and shared responsibility
• Why only 7% of women, and 16% of church-going women, ever approach a church before an abortion decision
• The narrative that shames women and lets partners off the hook
• What the story of the woman caught in adultery in John 8 actually reveals about grace and systemic injustice
• What it means to be the beloved, and why that identity changes how we respond to people in crisis
• The objectification hiding inside the abortion debate

Relevant Resources and Links:

• Becoming ProGrace: Expanding the Abortion Conversation Beyond Life Versus Choice, by Angela Weszely
• ProGrace

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JR Woodward is the National Director of the V3 Movement, a faculty member in the Doctor of Global Leadership cohort at Fuller Theological Seminary, and the author of The Scandal of Leadership: Unmasking the Powers of Domination in the Church. In this conversation, JR and Markus explore what it looks like to lead communities that bring the Kingdom of God to life in the places where we live.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• What it means that Jesus's primary message was the kingdom of God, and how that shapes everything a church does
• Shalom as a holistic picture of human flourishing: restored relationships with God, others, creation, and ourselves
• The NEAR framework for understanding a neighborhood: Narrative, Ethics, Associations, Rituals
• The four spaces of belonging and how Jesus inhabited all four: intimate (3–4), personal (5–12), social (20–50), public (70+)
• Why closed discipleship groups differ from open missional spaces, and why you can't build depth if the door is always open
• How people often belong before they believe, and how behavior changes before beliefs do
• How our desires are shaped by whoever we look up to, and how this creates rivalry and division in churches
• How conflict in a congregation can escalate until one person becomes the target
• What Philippians 2 teaches about giving up honor and titles as a path to healthier leadership
• How love of image, institutional self-preservation, and ideology become corrupting forces in church life
• Oscar Romero as a real-world example of the downward path of leadership
• V3 Movement's interdenominational church planting training
• The Doctor of Global Leadership cohort at Fuller Seminary

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• The Scandal of Leadership, by JR Woodward
• V3 Movement
• Fuller Doctor of Global Leadership Program

RELATED EPISODES:

• 288. Leadership That Smells Like the Gospel, with Jason Jensen
• 272. Beyond Church Revitalization, with Josh Hayden
• 247. The Kingdom of God as Present Reality

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Mark Scandrette has spent over twenty years wrestling with a hard realization: knowing a lot about God doesn't mean you're good at following Jesus. Dave Kludt spent fifteen years in pastoral ministry learning that everything, down to how you arrange the chairs in a room, forms people. Together they co-teach a Doctor of Ministry cohort at Fuller Seminary built around two words: integral and embodied. Mark is the founder of Reimagine and author of Practicing the Way of Jesus and The Ninefold Path of Jesus, and a longtime friend of the podcast (he first joined us back on episode 112). Dave is the president of Reimagine's board, a former pastor of 15 years, and Mark's partner in this new cohort, a Substack, and an upcoming podcast.

IN THIS CONVERSATION:

• Why "getting more information" doesn't lead to transformation, and what does
• What Dave means by an "integral" approach to formation, and why it starts with facing the world's fractures honestly
• What Mark means by "embodied" formation, and the Learning Lab model Reimagine uses to teach by doing
• Why the leader of a Learning Lab has to be a participant, not just an expert
• Moving from a "closed fist" to an "open hand" posture toward your next step
• Why discomfort with failure gets in the way of formation in many churches
• How Mark and Dave use the Enneagram as a formation tool, not a personality quiz
• The "formation edges" Mark and Dave are each working on right now
• Mark and Dave's hopes for the Fuller Doctor of Ministry cohort on integral and embodied formation

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• markscandrette.com — Mark's website
• reimagine.org — Mark and Dave's organization
• Fuller Seminary's Doctor of Ministry program
• Books mentioned:
  • Practicing the Way of Jesus, by Mark Scandrette
  • The Ninefold Path of Jesus, by Mark Scandrette

RELATED EPISODES:

• The Beatitudes and Spiritual Leadership, with Mark Scandrette
• The Spiritual Life of a Leader, with Tod Bolsinger
• The Neuroscience of Spiritual Formation, with Jim Wilder

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Jeff Crosby reads about 75 books a year. But in this conversation—his third appearance on the podcast—he's quick to say the number isn't the point. What matters is what reading does to you, including what he calls being "unselfed." Jeff Crosby is a 24-year veteran of InterVarsity Press, current executive with ECPA, and author of World of Wonders: A Spirituality of Reading.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• jeffreycrosby.net — Jeff's website, including his books and information on his forthcoming book on music
• ECPA — Evangelical Christian Publishers Association, where Jeff serves
• Books mentioned:
  • World of Wonders: A Spirituality of Reading, by Jeff Crosby
  • Every Moment Holy, Vol. I, by Douglas Kaine McKelvey
  • A Diary of Private Prayer, by John Baillie
  • Reading While Black, by Esau McCaulley
  • The Cross and the Lynching Tree, by James H. Cone
  • Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes, by Kenneth E. Bailey
  • Plainsong, by Kent Haruf
  • Eventide, by Kent Haruf
  • Benediction, by Kent Haruf
  • Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis
  • The Ragamuffin Gospel, by Brennan Manning
  • A Touch of Wonder, by Arthur Gordon

RELATED EPISODES:

• Episode 194: Saudade, Leadership, and Nurturing the Inner Life, with Jeff Crosby
• Episode 96: Crossing Leadership Thresholds, with Jeff Crosby

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Administration is more than paperwork—it’s a spiritual calling. Jana Holiday, author of Taking Good Care: Administration for Christian Formation, explores how stewardship, imagination, and hospitable leadership can transform administration into a ministry of care and Christian formation.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Jana Holiday explains that she loves administration because it involves solving problems and collaborating to move people, resources, and projects toward fulfilling a mission.
• Administration centers on stewardship—taking good care of people, resources, and projects.
• Jana Holiday connects the idea of stewardship to Genesis 1, positioning it as an expression of imago Dei and a pursuit of good work and good results.
• Effective administration requires reflection, intentionality, and love.
• Jana Holiday cautions against letting the pursuit of productivity override empathy and care in leadership.
• Administration works best when it is open-handed and welcoming, rather than controlling and restrictive.
• Administrators must choose between stewardship—an open invitation—and dominion, which relies on control.
• Jana Holiday warns that exercising dominion in administration risks missing out on the collective wisdom and creativity of a group.
• Administrative work is not unspiritual; all good work—including administration—can be ministry and part of Christian formation.
• Jana Holiday introduces three categories related to work: jobs, callings, and invitations, suggesting that many administrative roles may function as invitations from God more than callings.
• Approaching administrative work as an invitation can lead to a more purposeful and responsive engagement with people and resources.
• Markus Watson and Jana Holiday discuss the importance of boundaries for administrators and the need for leaders to help protect staff from being overloaded by excessive demands.
• Over-functioning and under-functioning both erode trust in organizational settings.
• Jana Holiday suggests administrators regularly audit their responsibilities and seek feedback from colleagues to maintain a healthy balance in their roles.
• Hospitable administration involves creating belonging and valuing people as part of stewardship, not just completing tasks.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
• IDEO (Design & Innovation Firm)
• Books mentioned:
  • Taking Good Care, by Jana Holliday
  • Designing Your Life, by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans
  • Designing Your Work Life, by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans
  • The Art of Innovation, by Tom Kelley

RELATED EPISODE'S:

• Healing Workplace Wounds, with Meryl Herr
• Trust, Teams, and Transformational Leadership, with Mike Bonem
• Pursuing Your Purpose, with Nicholas Pearce

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What happens when you visit 33 different churches in a year? Richard Riccardi, author of The Wandering Worshipper, shares his journey of exploring worship spaces, the surprising power of radical hospitality, and how authentic community can transform even the most unexpected visitor.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Richard Riccardi describes walking into 33 places of worship and discovering that churches are gardeners of fruitful communities.
• Churches serve as places where everyone can belong, and everyone needs a place to belong.
• Richard Riccardi intentionally attended a wide variety of worship services, including Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, and Baha’i gatherings.
• A welcoming environment across different places of worship made a strong positive impression, regardless of faith tradition.
• Richard Riccardi recounts a rare instance where a welcome felt too aggressive, serving as a caution about coming on too strong with visitors.
• Church members often believe their enthusiastic friendliness is always positive, but it can sometimes overwhelm newcomers.
• Experiences of deep hospitality and acceptance can transcend racial, cultural, and religious boundaries.
• Richard Riccardi explains that styles of worship that encourage relationship and participation engaged him more than rigid, predictable rituals.
• A diversity of approaches is needed in church messaging and environment to reach both newcomers and longtime members.
• Markus Watson and Richard Riccardi discuss the importance of “sacred listening” and tailoring responses to visitors’ backgrounds and spiritual needs.
• Being sensitive about criticizing other faiths or denominations can foster genuine community and dialogue.
• Authentic community in churches is demonstrated when people support each other in times of need, as seen in the care Richard Riccardi’s mother received near the end of her life.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINK:

• Richard Riccardi
  • Website - https://thewanderingworshiper.com/
• Books mentioned:
  • The Wandering Worshipper, by Richard Riccardi
  • Beyond Thingification, by Markus Watson
• Related episodes:
  • 167. Called to Each Other
  • 218. Trust, Teams, and Transformational Leadership
  • 222. Building a Multi-Inclusive Church

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Ministry can stir up all kinds of feelings, especially when we’re dealing with conflict, with grief, with change. And the better we understand what’s happening beneath the surface, the better we can lead ourselves—and our people—more thoughtfully and more effectively.

In this episode, I’m speaking with Dr. Audrey Davidheiser, a licensed psychologist and the author of Grieving Wholeheartedly. Audrey helps us understand something called Internal Family Systems—IFS—a powerful way of thinking about our inner world and all those “parts” of us that can get in the way of effective leadership.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Audrey Davidheiser explains what drew her to Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy.
• Internal Family Systems is a psychological model that views people as having multiple internal "parts."
• Parts of yourself often express themselves in day-to-day decisions, sometimes even in conflict with each other.
• Markus Watson clarifies that having "parts" is different from dissociative identity disorder or multiple personalities.
• Audrey Davidheiser explains the difference between parts in IFS and the rigid, unaware system found in Dissociative Identity Disorder.
• Internal Family Systems builds on the foundation of family systems theory, adapting it to the internal world.
• Inside everyone are parts that take on different roles, often formed in response to significant experiences, such as trauma or relational wounds.
• Markus Watson illustrates the concept with the example of feeling different internal responses to everyday situations like going to a late-night movie.
• Every person has both helpful and challenging internal parts, such as critics, achievers, or comfort-seekers, and these parts influence behavior.
• Audrey Davidheiser introduces three types of parts in IFS: exiles (hurt parts), managers (protective parts), and firefighters (distracting/soothing parts).
• Parts are not inherently bad; even when their actions are destructive, they are typically trying to protect us or relieve pain.
• Markus Watson inquires about the relationship between sin and IFS, prompting Audrey Davidheiser to articulate how parts can miss the mark despite good intentions.
• Pastors can benefit from understanding their own internal parts, especially when reacting to challenging questions or situations in ministry.
• Audrey Davidheiser suggests the practice of being "unblended"—letting the true Self, rather than an emotional part, lead when responding to others.
• Leaders who operate from their "Self" (instead of from a part) can foster healthier responses and guide their communities through change with greater empathy and wisdom.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Audrey Davidheiser
  • Aim For Breakthrough website
• Books mentioned:
  • Grieving Wholeheartedly, by Audrey Davidheiser
• Related Episodes:
  • 262: From Fired to Flourishing, with Chuck DeGroat
  • 254: Endless Expectations and Emotional Exhaustion
  • 206: The Healing Power of Pilgrimage, with Jon Huckins

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Effective youth ministry isn’t about changing more programs—it’s about deep listening and real relationships. Josh Packard, sociologist and researcher, explores how sacred listening transforms faith formation, the unique needs of Gen Z and Gen Alpha, and why scaling relational ministry requires curiosity and humility.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Markus Watson asks Josh Packard to share the origins and findings of his research on relational ministry.
• Josh Packard explains that listening itself plays a formative role in faith development, not just as a trust-building step.
• Relational ministry requires new strategies for scalability, especially with large groups of young people.
• Josh Packard points out that ministry processes often lag behind the changing needs and contexts of young people.
• Churches should critically examine whether their programs and timelines match the lives and developmental journeys of today’s youth.
• Josh Packard observes that artificial time containers like confirmation years may not accommodate the real-life disruptions and traumas kids experience.
• Adapting ministry to stages and individualized journeys, rather than rigid timelines, better serves young people.
• Josh Packard emphasizes that trust in institutions has shifted toward trust rooted in personal, listening-based relationships.
• Practicing sacred listening involves a theological commitment to seeing others as made in the image of God (imago dei).
• Effective listening involves aligning communication with the needs and backgrounds of those being heard, rather than using a one-size-fits-all model.
• Recognizing patterns in conversations helps ministry leaders know whom to focus on, making it possible to scale relational ministry.
• Josh Packard recommends using tools to systematize relational information and connect young people to multiple trusted adults.
• A network of trusted adults (ideally five per young person) significantly boosts the impact of any ministry.
• Humility and genuine curiosity, not judgment or presumption, are essential for adults seeking to connect with and serve youth.
• Loneliness is now most acute among young people, and ministry approaches need to shift from large events to individualized relationship-building to overcome this challenge.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Future of Faith
•  Sacred Listening Study
• Books mentioned:
  • Faithful Futures, by Josh Packard
• Related Episodes:
  • Identity, Belonging, Purpose, with Kara Powell
  • How Churches Can Engage and Support Gen Z, with Tanita Tualla Maddox

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Pastoral ministry is both a sacred joy and a heavy burden. Kurt Fredrickson, Associate Dean for Professional Doctoral Programs at Fuller Seminary, discusses the struggles pastors face, how church leadership is shifting in a changing culture, and why creating life-giving congregational environments matters more than ever.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Markus Watson introduces the episode by referencing the book That Their Work Will Be a Joy and asks why it needed to exist.
• Kurt Fredrickson describes how the book originated from pastors resonating deeply with the challenges and joys of ministry in a seminary lunch discussion.
• Ministry is tough and filled with conflicts on the outside and fears within, as reflected in Paul’s writings.
• Despite challenges, pastors find joy in being gripped by God and walking with people through both the best and hardest moments of life.
• Markus Watson shares his personal experience of moving through seasons of fear and joy in ministry, appreciating moments of goodness and kindness in congregational life.
• Ministry leaders enter sacred spaces in people’s lives, highlighting the privilege of bringing gospel and good news during life’s milestones and struggles.
• The Doctor of Ministry program provides “fire for ministry” and “oxygen for your soul,” supporting pastors with new skills and spiritual renewal.
• The Doctor of Global Leadership degree equips marketplace leaders and executives to integrate faith with work by tackling practical ministry challenges in their workplace.
• Pastors face unique challenges, including constant 24/7 expectations from both themselves and their congregations, often making it difficult to “take off the uniform.”
• Kurt Fredrickson shares an honest story of vulnerability with another pastor, revealing the value of mutual support and truthful conversations.
• Cohort-based models in Doctor of Ministry programs foster deep relationships and provide safe spaces for pastors to remove their masks and find encouragement.
• Ministry flows from the inside out, and leaders must be in a healthy place themselves to minister well and avoid causing harm within congregational cultures.
• Every congregation possesses its own culture, shaped by leaders, and has the potential to be either kind and life-giving or toxic and harmful.
• Being vulnerable as a pastoral leader is necessary, but requires discernment, as oversharing can sometimes lead to painful repercussions.
• Kurt Fredrickson emphasizes that pastors ultimately seek internal growth and love within their congregations, and asks congregants to be kind as pastors strive to embody what they teach.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Kurt Fredrickson – [email protected]
• Fuller Doctor of Ministry Program
• Fuller Doctor of Global Leadership Program
• Books mentioned:
  • That Their Work Will Be a Joy, by Kurt Fredrickson and Cameron Lee
• Related episodes:
  • 103. Willingness to Adapt: The Church After Covid, with Kurt Fredrickson and Cameron Lee
  • 109. Leadership as Learning, Part 2: Coaches and Cohorts, with Tod Bolsinger
  • 113. Flourishing Leadership, with Andy Crouch

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