This is it—the final episode of our partnership with the Church Leadership Institute. It's hard to believe how quickly these years have flown by.

In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson look back on what this collaboration has meant, what we've accomplished together, and where the road leads from here.

THIS EPSODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Markus Watson reflects on starting the podcast during a time of personal transition and describes how the partnership with the Church Leadership Institute began in a providential way.
• Markus Watson shares that joining the Church Leadership Institute’s podcast team was not an answer to a specific prayer, but an unexpected opportunity that resonated with his calling.
• Tod Bolsinger explains that the Church Leadership Institute started as a place for researching adaptive change while directly working with leaders and practitioners.
• Leaders benefit most from research that connects theory with real-life contexts, especially in smaller church settings.
• Churches and leaders need resources that are accessible to smaller congregations, not just large organizations.
• Tod Bolsinger emphasizes that making adaptive change in smaller churches can feel as difficult as changing one’s family of origin.
• Experimentation, contextual cohorts, and digital platforms proved effective for spreading adaptive leadership resources across diverse church settings.
• Delivering effective leadership development depends on understanding the specific context of each congregation.
• You cannot develop adaptive capacity simply by consuming information; leaders must actively practice adaptive work.
• Tod Bolsinger stresses that you cannot outwork a changing world, highlighting the importance of discernment and adaptability rather than relying solely on hard work.
• Crisis situations, like the pandemic, require leaders to learn new ways of thinking, rather than applying old solutions to new challenges.
• Significant changes, such as the rise of telecommuting, political shifts, and technological advances, have rapidly altered the leadership landscape.
• Tod Bolsinger notes that the main challenge now is developing adaptive capacity in entire congregations, not just among pastors or staff.
• Developing adaptive discipleship within a congregation requires a shift from programmatic solutions to cultivating a transformative organizational culture.
• Markus Watson explores experimenting with new podcast formats and continuing conversations with leaders to support spiritual life and leadership growth.
• Tod Bolsinger charges leaders to embrace a posture of curiosity, prioritizing learning and question-asking over being the “learned expert.”

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Church Leadership Institute
• Related episodes:
  • 100. The Spiritual Life of a Leader, with Tod Bolsinger
  • 116. Power, Vulnerability, Rest, with Tod Bolsinger
  • 144. Is the Church Failing to Make Disciples? with Tod Bolsinger

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What does it really mean to create a “safe space” for young people in our churches—not just a place free from harm, but a place where their deepest questions and unique experiences are genuinely welcomed?

In this episode, Tanita Tualla Maddox, National Director for Generational Impact for Young Life and author of What Gen Z Really Wants to Know About God, helps us understand Gen Z’s core questions about faith, the meaning of safety and trust, and how churches and ministry leaders can communicate and lead adaptively in today’s cultural landscape.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Tanita Tualla Maddox describes Gen Z as digital natives who blend the physical and digital worlds, which shapes their outlook and identity.
• Stereotypes about Gen Z often paint them as weak, fragile, over-emotional, and self-centered.
• Tanita Tualla Maddox emphasizes that Gen Z has faced unique challenges such as growing up with social media, experiencing school shootings and lockdown drills, and living through a global pandemic.
• Social media exposes Gen Z to global comparison, leading many to wrestle with feelings of not being enough.
• The words older generations use about Gen Z—often negative—shape Gen Z's perception that they are disliked and not valued as they are.
• Tanita Tualla Maddox points out that generational miscommunication happens even when the same words are used, because their meanings shift between groups.
• Safety means more than just the absence of physical danger for Gen Z; it also encompasses emotional, psychological, and even comfort-based dimensions.
• Defining what makes a space or relationship "safe" often varies from person to person within Gen Z.
• Tanita Tualla Maddox suggests that churches should directly ask young people what makes them feel welcome and safe, rather than make assumptions.
• Spiritual leaders often answer questions that Gen Z is not asking, missing opportunities to address their actual concerns.
• The incarnation of Jesus can help Gen Z trust God, because it shows he experienced abandonment, public shame, betrayal, and other relatable human struggles.
• Trust for Gen Z is not automatically given to authority figures or institutions—they expect trust to be earned and proven.
• Safety is seen as a right by many in Gen Z, and the loss of safety can feel like a violation of that right.
• Truth has become highly individualized for Gen Z, with "my truth" and "speak your truth" surfacing as common phrases; this complicates their relationship to universal or absolute truths.
• Tanita Tualla Maddox encourages church leaders to treat generational differences as cross-cultural experiences, approaching Gen Z with curiosity, humility, and a willingness to ask questions and learn.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Tanita Tualla Maddox
  • tanitamaddox.com
• Books mentioned:
  • What Gen Z Really Wants to Know About God, by Tanita Tualla Maddox
  • The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, by C.S. Lewis
• Related episodes:
  • 35. God Wants

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Discover why real leadership is never a solo journey—and how embracing your own vulnerability can unlock the supportive relationships you need to thrive through change.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss Tod's own quote in Ep. 283, Disorientation and Spiritual Leadership:

“The vulnerability of leadership needs the security of many relationships.” 

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Leaders thrive when they work alongside partners, mentors, and friends.
• Effective change leadership requires collaboration, not isolation.
• Leaders experience growth by acknowledging and praying through their personal needs.
• Mentoring relationships and supportive community strengthen a leader’s resilience.
• Authentic vulnerability in leadership attracts the right relationships for transformation.

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Do you ever feel like you’re alone in your leadership?  Why is that? Why do so many church leaders feel isolated—and how did we come to believe that ministry is something we’re supposed to do alone?

In this episode, E.K. Strawser, author of You Were Never Meant to Lead Alone, unpacks what it means to move from solo leadership to a model shaped by shared responsibility and the APEST framework—apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, and teacher—so that not only our churches, but our communities, can flourish.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Markus Watson invites discussion about the standard view of leadership and prompts E.K. Strawser to unpack its problems and what's missing.
• Church members often expect leaders to command control, draw crowds, or have significant contributions, which influences congregational dynamics.
• E.K. Strawser argues that modern church leadership borrows too heavily from secular business models rather than biblical principles of shared leadership.
• Traditional notions of leadership in churches leave congregations disempowered, dependent, or deprived when power is centered on a single leader.
• If a leader does not share leadership, the church risks losing members' sense of identity and purpose.
• E.K. Strawser emphasizes that effective leaders must be disciples of Jesus first, prioritizing spiritual maturity over skill sets.
• Leaders should embody humility, honor, hospitality, and hopefulness as markers of mature church leadership.
• Markus Watson notes that churches often select leaders for functional skills rather than spiritual maturity, highlighting a common problem in leadership development.
• Christian hospitality means making space for others, not just providing comfort or amenities.
• E.K. Strawser teaches congregations to celebrate and honor each other to counteract envy and encourage spiritual growth.
• Leaders foster environments where others can learn, heal, experience hospitality, seek justice, and be sent out for ministry.
• Markus Watson asks E.K. Strawser to explain the APEST framework and its practical value for sharing leadership in churches.
• All five APEST gifts—apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, and teacher—should be represented in shared leadership structures at every level of church leadership.
• Implementing shared leadership and equipping environments requires intentional structure and ongoing relational attention.
• Change in church leadership provokes grief and resistance, so leaders must create environments that acknowledge loss, facilitate grieving, and cast clear vision.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• E.K. Strawser:
  • www.ekstrawser.com
• Books mentioned:
  • You Were Never Meant to Lead Alone, by E.K. Strawser
• Related episodes:
  • 185. From Sunday Services to Real Transformation, with E.K. Strawser
  • 191. Thriving Church Leadership in Uncertain Times, with Heather James, Matt Lake, and Jonny Weir
  • 212: Unlearning O

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Learn how mastering your anxiety with simple, God-given tools like deep breathing can transform your leadership in the moments that matter most.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Audrey Davidheiser in Ep. 284, How to Respond Thoughtfully Instead of Reacting:

"If you feel anxious or rushed or concerned or fearful, deep breaths. Because taking deep breaths from the belly is just a natural way that God has instilled in our brain, that it just kind of resets the nervous system and it allows ourselves to come back up online."

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Leaders reset their nervous system by taking deep, belly breaths when feeling anxious or stressed.
• Leaders make wiser decisions when they calm themselves before responding to difficult situations.
• Leaders enhance their effectiveness by admitting their own anxiety instead of denying it.
• Leaders move from reactive anger to thoughtful action by recognizing when they are emotionally “activated.”
• Leaders cultivate calm as a leadership skill to better focus on their mission and serve others.

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Why is it so hard for pastors and church people to be truly open and honest with one another? In ministry, we talk a lot about authenticity, vulnerability, and grace—but in reality, putting those ideals into practice can feel risky, messy, and even dangerous.

In this episode, Tom Bennardo, author of Open-Hearted People, Soul-Connected Church, draws on decades of pastoral experience to unpack the journey from guarded exteriors to soul-connected community, offering practical wisdom for leaders who want to foster deeper spiritual formation and resilience through messy, honest, and grace-filled relationships.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Markus Watson introduces the idea that some traditions focus on good behavior as the main thing God desires.
• Tom Bennardo strongly asserts that God is most interested in our hearts and souls, not primarily our outward behavior.
• The center of spiritual life is the soul—the inner person—and when our hearts are transformed, right behavior naturally follows.
• Many people develop performance-based Christianity and need to unlearn legalistic mindsets to embrace grace.
• Tom Bennardo describes his journey from legalism to understanding grace as central to authentic spiritual formation.
• The true spiritual transformation flows from inward honesty, authenticity, and a willingness to reveal one's real self to God and others.
• Tom Bennardo defines “open heartedness” as direct, honest engagement of one’s soul—with God, oneself, and others.
• Spiritual growth requires level-three honesty: openly acknowledging the present condition of our soul, not just past mistakes or surface facts.
• Open hearted living involves being vulnerably honest not only with God, but also with ourselves and select others.
• Markus Watson suggests that being open hearted in relationship—with self, God, and others—can provoke anxiety, especially regarding sharing with other people.
• Creating authentic community requires churches to move beyond surface relationships, foster deeper honesty, and cultivate environments where vulnerability is safe and valued.
• Tom Bennardo highlights the importance of leaders modeling open heartedness before expecting it from congregations.
• Spiritual leaders must prioritize genuine relationships rather than merely teaching principles from a distance; transformation is “caught as much as taught.”
• Open heartedness builds resilience in leaders, enabling them to face challenges and change with trust in God rather than rigid control or certainty about the future.
• Tom Bennardo encourages leaders to pursue a collaborative, open-handed approach, trusting God’s guidance and fostering group discernment rather than solitary authority.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• https://tombennardo.com/
• Books mentioned:
  • Open-hearted People, Soul-Connected Church, by Tom Bennardo
• Related episodes:
  • 262. From Fired to Flourishing, with Chuck DeGroat
  • 266. The Church as Shalom Maker, with Terry A. Smith
  • 288. Leadership

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Learn how breaking out of your comfort zone and embracing new perspectives can transform your leadership and help dismantle bias in your church.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Erin Devers in Ep. 282, The Cost of Bias in the Church:

“One of the strategies for reducing bias is to go bigger, to widen your perspective.”

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• People tend to hold onto their biases because they find comfort and safety in the familiar.
• Leaders confuse discomfort with genuine danger, which prevents them from widening their perspectives.
• Leaders can intentionally broaden their outlook by seeking out diverse voices and saying yes to experiences that feel scary.
• Leaders maintain vibrancy and effectiveness by practicing humility and curiosity rather than clinging to expertise.
• Interacting with people from different backgrounds energizes leaders and equips them to lead change more confidently.

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Jews for Jesus helps Jewish people come to know Jesus, the Jewish Messiah. What’s fascinating is how Jews for Jesus has not only remained committed to that mission of sharing the hope of the Jewish Messiah, but has also adapted as the world around it has changed. As ministry leaders, we face the tension between time-honored tradition and the need for fresh approaches—and the story of Jews for Jesus offers some compelling lessons in adaptive leadership.

In this episode, Aaron Abramson, CEO of Jews for Jesus and author of Mission Design, shares how Jews for Jesus has reimagined its strategies for sharing the gospel, as well as how leaders can cultivate a posture of learning and flexibility without compromising core convictions.  

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Jews for Jesus began as a movement to share the gospel with Jewish people, focusing on presenting the message in accessible and relevant ways.
• Aaron Abramson clarifies that believing in Jesus as the Messiah does not require abandoning Jewish identity.
• The earliest followers of Jesus were Jewish, and the concept of Gentiles joining Jesus was initially controversial in the early church.
• Markus Watson asks Aaron Abramson to share his own journey of faith and what led him to believe in Jesus as the Messiah.
• Religious and cultural barriers often make it challenging for Jewish people to consider faith in Jesus.
• Jews for Jesus historically used bold street evangelism, including handing out creative broadsides and literature on college campuses.
• Aaron Abramson observes that the primary strategy for evangelism shifted as cultural contexts and modes of communication changed.
• The rise of digital communication made traditional street evangelism less effective for connecting with Jewish people.
• Aaron Abramson describes pivoting to a process of empathetic listening and learning from the communities he was trying to reach.
• Teams at Jews for Jesus began to adopt audience-centric communication, tailoring their approach for different Jewish communities and subgroups.
• Aaron Abramson explains the development of new outreach models, such as setting up coffee shops and arts ministries as relational spaces.
• Ministry teams use design thinking, prototyping, and iteration to refine new strategies and measure their impact.
• Changing methodologies and staying adaptive allow Jews for Jesus to remain effective in reaching diverse Jewish audiences.
• Markus Watson highlights the importance of continually learning and adapting, affirming that keeping a posture of learning leads to meaningful change.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Jews for Jesus website
• “So Be It” Youtube channel
• Books mentioned:
  • Mission Design, by Aaron Abramason
  • Center Church, by Tim Keller
• Related episodes:
  • 187: Tackling Adaptive Challenges in Church Leadership, with Angie Ward
  • 264: Building a Future-Focused Church, with Kara Powell, Jake Mulder, and Raymond Ch

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Explore how real transformation in spiritual leadership begins with listening deeply to your community and letting curiosity—not certainty—shape your mission.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Shannon Kiser in Ep. 280, Empowering Leaders for Creative Mission:

“Fresh expressions always start with listening and being attentive to who God is putting on your heart.”

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Leaders cultivate fresh expressions of church by listening deeply to their communities.
• Adaptive leadership emerges when leaders prioritize curiosity about people over quick solutions.
• Experiments in ministry prompt learning rather than simply measuring success or failure.
• New missional creativity grows out of attentive relationships, not just innovative ideas.
• Leaders empower others by embracing humility and care before offering expertise or vision.

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What if the best leadership isn’t about having the answers, but about asking the questions that draw out wisdom, connection, and creativity from those around us? What if the most transformational moments in ministry happen not when we speak—but when we invite others to share, reflect, and dream with us?

In this episode, J.R. Briggs, author of The Art of Asking Better Questions discusses how asking great questions can open new possibilities for ministry leaders and lead to healthier, more effective leadership—for ourselves and our churches.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• JR Briggs describes how questions neurologically "hijack" our brains, engaging us much more deeply than simple information does.
• Questions foster both clarity and engagement, enabling deeper connection and creativity between people.
• JR Briggs identifies several cultural obstacles to asking questions, including conversational narcissism, a lack of curiosity, and the fear of awkwardness.
• Healthy questions play a crucial role in building connection and trust, especially in an age marked by loneliness.
• JR Briggs attributes his passion for asking questions to observing his father's genuine curiosity and care for others.
• The quality of your life depends on the quality of questions you ask yourself, God, and others.
• Deliberate practice, such as collecting good questions and “gaming” conversations, strengthens one’s ability to ask better questions.
• JR Briggs outlines four levels of questions: information, interaction, understanding, and transformation, each deepening relational impact.
• JR Briggs encourages leaders to move beyond transactional questions and pursue transformational conversations grounded in trust.
• Curiosity, wisdom, humility, and courage are essential virtues for asking effective questions.
• Markus Watson notes that leading with questions, rather than only answers, builds stronger relationships and trust as a pastor.
• Great leaders amplify others and cultivate deep curiosity, according to JR Briggs’s research and coaching experience.
• Questions create space for spiritual direction, hospitality, and genuine pastoral care within ministries.
• Slowing down and asking questions in tense moments, instead of having knee-jerk reactions, can lead to greater understanding and connection.
• Jesus used questions extensively—over 300 in the New Testament—to provoke thought, deepen engagement, and transform lives.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Kairos Partnerships
• Books mentioned:
  • The Art of Asking Better Questions, by J.R. Briggs
  • Canoeing the Mountains, by Tod Bolsinger
• Related episodes:
  • Episode 240: Leading with Wisdom from Above, with Uli Chi
  • Episode 270: Evangelism as Consolation, with Andrew Root
  • Episode 278: Preaching in Today’s Post-Christian World, with Mark Glanville

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