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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore how leadership often feels like moving through a dense fog where vision is limited. Tod shares his thoughts on the importance of valuing enduring principles over having a clear vision in times of rapid change. He emphasizes that being anchored in unchangeable values and the mission of our faith can guide us through uncertain landscapes. The conversation also unpacks the role of Jesus and the Spirit in adaptive leadership, highlighting the need to align our actions with what Jesus is doing in the world.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from David Quel in Ep 242, Life and Leadership in the Fog:

"That's what it means to belong to Jesus, that even in the fog, he can be trusted."

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Leaders face fog by walking in faith, not just relying on vision.Leadership requires clarity on unchanging values amidst a rapidly changing world.
• Clear, essential values guide leaders when vision is uncertain.
• Adaptive leadership involves aligning with Jesus' ongoing work in the world.
• Trusting Jesus in the fog fortifies leaders’ commitment and direction.

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True ministry leadership isn’t about power; it’s about love in action. It’s about stepping into the self-giving, co-suffering way of Jesus, even when it feels counterintuitive. This kind of leadership doesn’t seek control but embraces humility, sacrifice, and deep connection with those we serve.

In this episode, Marc Schelske, pastor of Bridge City Community Church and author of Walking Otherward, unpacks how embracing this kind of love reshapes our leadership, strengthens our churches, and helps us navigate the challenges of ministry with grace and wisdom.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Marc Schelske introduces the concept of other-centered, co-suffering love as a key aspect of following Jesus.
• The phrase "other-centered, co-suffering love" encompasses love that is conscious of others and willing to bear their burdens.
• Marc Schelske emphasizes the significance of Philippians 2 and Jesus' journey to Jerusalem as examples of this love.
• Jesus' journey to Jerusalem symbolizes a path that is not self-centered but oriented towards others.
• Self-centered, ego-defending ambition contrasts sharply with the way Jesus modeled leadership.
• Marc Schelske reflects on his own leadership transition, focusing on how he learned to disconnect identity from numerical success.
• Leadership driven by other-centered, co-suffering love requires holding space for others to process change at their own pace.
• Marc Schelske explains the importance of allowing time in decision-making processes to foster consensual and loving leadership.
• The fear of death and discomfort often drives the desire for control and power within leadership.
• Marc Schelske discusses creating communities where multiple perspectives can coexist without division.
• Churches must embrace a posture of vulnerability and humility in their leadership practices.
• Marc Schelske highlights that love acts by consent, meaning decisions should include space for honest dialogue and dissent.
• Co-suffering love challenges traditional notions of leadership by prioritizing presence over power.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Marc Schelske:
  • Website - https://marcalanschelske.com/
  • Bridge City Community Church
• Books mentioned:
  • Walking Otherward, by Marc Schelske
  • Falling Upward, by Richard Rohr
• Related episodes:
  • 206. The Healing Power of Pilgrimmage, with Jon Huckins
  • 236. Supporting Families with Autism in Your Church, with David Quel
  • 240. Leading with Wisdom from Above, with Uli Chi

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss the importance of acknowledging when leaders feel overwhelmed and how critical it is to slow down and reflect rather than react impulsively. Through engaging metaphors and practical advice, they share strategies for adaptive leadership, highlighting practices such as pausing, getting perspective, and silent prayer to navigate chaos and uncertainty effectively.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from David Quel in Ep 242, Life and Leadership in the Fog:

"The world is moving fast. Change is speeding up and human brains haven't necessarily changed in order to be able to cope with all that's happening."


THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Leaders need to acknowledge feeling overwhelmed when confronting rapid change.
• Practicing adaptive leadership requires slowing down and reflecting rather than reacting impulsively.
• Effective leaders train themselves to pause and assess before taking action during crises.
• Pausing to pray or gain perspective can help leaders manage chaotic situations more effectively.
• Leaders should ask if immediate decisions are necessary to avoid defaulting to outdated practices.

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AI, social media, and other technologies are transforming community, worship, and leadership. To stay effective, ministry leaders must understand these shifts—but also learn from the past. How do today’s technologies compare to those of previous eras? This perspective can help us navigate the future.

In this episode, I’m joined by Rex Miller, author of The Millennium Matrix. A futurist and expert in leading through change, Rex will share insights on how cultural and technological shifts impact ministry and how we can adapt.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Rex Miller explores the impact of communication changes on Christianity over the centuries.
• The Millennium Matrix analyzes shifts in communication and their effects on church culture.
• Rex Miller describes the transformation from an oral culture to print culture through technological advancements like the Gutenberg printing press.
• The broadcast era introduced personality-driven leadership and large-scale praise and worship experiences in churches.
• Rex Miller explains the transition from analog to digital technology and its wider implications.
• Digital culture fosters interactive, networked communication that reshapes organizational and cultural dynamics.
• In the social mobile era, personalized and real-time interactions dominate communication patterns.
• Rex Miller predicts that AI will enhance personalization and autonomy in community formation.
• The shift from community-centric oral culture to individualistic broadcast culture reflects changes in authority structures.
• Markus Watson delves into how shifting cultural frameworks affect pastoral leadership and church practices.
• Rex Miller sees potential in decentralized, grassroots approaches to modern church gatherings.
• The opportunities for direct community involvement and personalized content create new forms of ministry.
• Rex Miller highlights how technological changes continuously reshape leadership and organizational strategies.
• Church leaders must transition from a certainty mindset to one of curiosity to adapt effectively to cultural changes.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Rex Miller:
  • Rexmiller.com
  • Linked In
  • Mind Shift
  • Genius Spark
• Books mentioned:
  • The Millenium Matrix, by Rex Miller
  • Neuromancer, by William Gibson
• Movies mentioned:
  • Jesus Revolution
  • Pleasantville
• Related episodes:
  • 118. Forecasting and Innovation, with Tom Sine and Dwight Friesen
  • 147. Is Innovation Inherently Good? with Andrew Root
  • 155: Leadership and Looking to the Future, with Tom Sine

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Based on their experiences as pastors, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the delicate balance between seeking consensus through voting and the necessity of leading with focus and clarity. They delve into the unique challenges and responsibilities that come with adaptive leadership, emphasizing the importance of mission-driven decisions.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Uli Chi in Ep. 240. Leading with Wisdom from Above, with Uli Chi:

“There are times when leaders lead by providing focus and clarity, rather than simply taking a vote on everything.”


THIS EPISODES HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

1. Leaders guide by offering focus and clarity, not just by voting on every decision.
2. Decisive leadership is necessary in complex situations.
3. Effective pastors highlight the mission and encourage their boards to make decisions accordingly.
4. True leadership sometimes requires addressing difficult truths instead of seeking unanimous consensus.
5. Providing focus and clarity often involves asking the right questions to guide the team's decision-making process.

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Burnout. An all too familiar experience for most of us.  It's more than just feeling tired or overworked. It's that crushing sense of futility when your passion for ministry runs out, and it leaves you wondering if you can even continue the work you were once so excited about.

Jonathan Hoover, the author of Stress Fracture, Your Ultimate Guide to Beating Burnout, shares valuable insights from his experience and research, including practical strategies for managing stress, the importance of self-care, and maintaining emotional and spiritual health in leadership. 

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Jonathan Hoover shares the significant stress his father faced while pastoring their church.
• Jonathan Hoover explains how his father experienced severe emotional and physical symptoms of burnout.
• Markus Watson asks about the role of spirituality in addressing burnout.
• Jonathan Hoover highlights how the biblical story of Elijah offers insights into addressing burnout through rest and care.
• The world tempts people to believe they are infinite, leading to stress and burnout.
• Jonathan Hoover talks about 'super rats' and the dangers of endless adaptation to stress.
• Creating margin in life by setting limits can help prevent burnout.
• Monitoring multiple aspects of life, such as physical and emotional health, can help manage burnout.
• Jonathan Hoover introduces the concept of emotional exhaustion and how it impacts emotional regulation.
• Emotional intelligence decreases as emotional exhaustion increases.
• Burnout leads to a loss of passion and a fatalistic outlook on success.
• Minimizing distractions and increasing self-awareness are crucial in preventing burnout.
• To prevent burnout, people need to realize their own limits and adjust their workloads.
• Jonathan Hoover explains that emotional awareness is necessary for making lifestyle adjustments.

• RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:
• Jonathan Hoover:
  • Website – drjonathanhoover.com
  • Church website - Newspring.org
• Books mentioned:
  • Stress Fracture, by Jonathan Hoover
  • Leadership on the Line, by Ronald Heifetz and Marty Linsky
• Related episodes:
  • 136. Healthy Attachment and Spiritual Leadership, with Todd Hall
  • 175. From Burnout to Resilience, with Jason Young
  • 179. The Neuroscience of Spiritual Formation, with Jim Wilder

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the essential question: "What thirsts of my soul am I bringing to my congregation?" They discuss the importance of leaders acknowledging their own needs and the dangers of seeking fulfillment from their congregations instead of God. Learn how aligning personal needs with God's guidance can help leaders bring true abundance to their communities.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Alan Fadling in Ep 238, Lead with Less Anxiety:

"What thirsts of my soul am I bringing to my congregation in hopes they'll meet me there rather than learning to take the thirsts of my soul to God so that God could meet me in those places? And then I could bring abundance to the community of people entrusted to me.”


THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

1. Leaders must acknowledge their needs to avoid seeking affirmation from their congregations improperly.
2. Effective leaders should bring their soul’s needs to God rather than their congregations.
3. Leaders face the temptation of people-pleasing, which can derail their adherence to God's mission.
4. Being transparent about personal needs helps leaders avoid subconscious behaviors that could hinder mission-focused leadership.
5. Fulfilling personal needs through appropriate relationships prevents dependence on congregational approval.

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This episode tackles the topic of being "othered" by those in church leadership, an important conversation for anyone in ministry leadership who wants to understand how to create an environment of embrace, of love, of belonging—and of being a healthy team.

Jenai Auman, the author of Othered, discusses her personal experiences of being othered by church leaders, the impact it had on her, and how leaders can cultivate communities marked by shalom and hesed.


THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Jenai Auman shares her struggles with toxic issues and resistance at a church where she was on staff.
• Advocacy for personal boundaries led to Jenai being labeled as the problem and asked to leave the church.
• Individuals often remain in unhealthy environments due to a shallow understanding of love and belonging, influenced by past trauma.
• Jenai Auman identifies with domestic violence survivors in her determination to fix the system from within.
• Through her painful experience, Jenai Auman gained transformative wisdom and spiritual growth.
• Emphasizing the importance of healing, Jenai Auman aims to avoid bitterness and repeating the harm done to her.
• The hesed of God demonstrates loving kindness and compassion, aiming for wholeness in a fractured world.
• The zero-sum game misconception causes competition for comfort and peace, but God's shalom advocates for abundance.
• By adopting an open-handed posture towards others, we mirror God's nature, fostering inclusivity and belonging.
• Jenai Auman advises those feeling othered to recognize their inherent belovedness without seeking external validation.
• Church leaders should focus on self-reflection and compassion, avoiding defensive othering.
• Jenai Auman discusses the concept of shalom as a state of peace involving love, wisdom, and understanding personal stories.
• Naming experiences of othering is crucial for healing, enabling reconciliation and peace.
• Jenai Auman reflects on how her experiences with othering have shaped her understanding of mutuality and divine love.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Jenai Auman:
  • Website
  • Substack
  • Email
• Books mentioned:
  • Othered, by Jenai Auman
• Related episodes:
  • 82: Narcissism and Spiritual Leadership, with Chuck DeGroat
  • 92. Against a Culture of Abuse, with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer
  • 163. You Can’t Be Found if You’re Never Lost, with Steve Carter

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson reflect on how fear influences our congregations and the importance of addressing it directly. They discuss the role of technical expertise in building trust and how leaders can compassionately accompany people through their fears, especially in times of change and perceived loss. Tod shares strategies for normalizing fear, creating communities of empathy, and tackling resistance by engaging with those who are most fearful.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from David Quel in Ep 236, Supporting Families with Autism in Your Church:

“People have a tendency to be fearful of what they don't understand and what they don't know.”


THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

1. Tod Bolsinger emphasizes the importance of accompanying people through their fears in leadership.
2. Leaders need to acknowledge and normalize fear to help people navigate their anxieties.
3. Churches should invite experts to build technical competence and trust.
4. Addressing resistance directly helps calm fears and fosters gradual progress.
5. Creating a community of empathy ensures that no one faces loss or fear alone.

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In this episode, we’re taking a deep-dive into the complex and, at times, nerve-wracking experience of deconstruction. Leaders often worry about its impact on their roles, their authority, and on the harmony or unity of their church communities. But what if deconstruction is less about tearing down faith and more about stripping away what's non-essential, centering instead on Jesus?

In this epidsode, Scot McKnight, author of Invisible Jesus, sheds light on how deconstruction can be a path to a more Christ-focused faith, emphasizing the importance of creating supportive spaces for exploring and asking questions. This conversation is crucial for ministry leaders navigating their own or their congregants' journeys of faith reformation.


THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Markus Watson addresses the nervousness leaders feel about deconstruction and its potential impacts on their beliefs.
• Scot McKnight highlights that leaders fear deconstruction because it threatens their job security, authority, and influence.
• People undergoing deconstruction can disrupt church communities, creating anxiety about church teachings.
• Markus Watson emphasizes the need for leaders to find safe spaces outside their church community for discussing deconstruction.
• Scot McKnight suggests that churches should support and provide safe exploration spaces instead of trying to control questioning individuals.
• Pastors face pressure to have all the answers, and questioning can trigger their insecurities about their role and authority.
• Markus Watson discusses how churches need to shift their culture to become open to questioning and changes.
• Scot McKnight reflects on his book "Invisible Jesus," addressing how deconstruction is not about abandoning faith but refocusing on Christ by removing non-essential elements.
• A study cited by Scot McKnight shows that 86% of people who undergo deconstruction remain in the church, although they may change congregations.
• Deconstruction resembles a personal Protestant Reformation where individuals reassess and personalize their faith journey.
• Scot McKnight draws parallels between deconstruction and historical movements aimed at shedding unnecessary church practices or beliefs, focusing on continual reform.
• Scot McKnight states that Jesus acted as a deconstructor, challenging the law within Judaism similar to the prophets.
• The church's role should involve listening to deconstructors rather than fearing or dismissing them, promoting an adaptive leadership approach.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Scot McKnight:
  • Substack
• Books mentioned:
  • Invisible Jesus, by Scot McKnight and Tommy Phillips
  • A Church Called Tov, by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer
  • Revelation for the Rest of Us, by Scot McKnight and Cody Matchett
• Related episodes:
  • 171. Leading Your Ministry as a Dissident Disciple, with Scot McKnight
  • 98. Deconstruction and Reconstruction, with A.J. Swoboda
  • 92. Against a Culture of Abuse, with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.