Spiritual Life and Leadership

By Markus WatsonReligion & Spirituality Christianity

Spiritual Life and Leadership episodes

October 13How We Mishandle the Women of Scripture, with Sandra Glahn, author of A Woman's Place Is in the Story
Sandra Glahn is professor of media arts and worship at Dallas Theological Seminary and author of A Woman's Place Is in the Story: Seeing Women in the Biblical Narrative. Sandra and Markus talk about the ways we skip, vilify, cameo, and domesticate the women of Scripture, and how reading them in the context of the larger story changes what we see.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:
Four ways we tend to get women in the Bible wrong.
Why the women in Matthew's genealogy are not there for immorality, and what Matthew is doing with them instead.
What the woman at the well looks like when John 3 and 4 are read together and our assumptions about her past are set aside.
What levirate marriage was and why it matters for Tamar, Ruth, and the woman at the well.
Why Jezebel's real sin was idolatry, and how the setting of Jezreel shows God keeping a promise.
What it means when women are unnamed or silent in a story, from the midwives in Exodus to the woman at the end of Judges.
Why reading bigger sections of Scripture, even on audio in the car, helps us see the story.
Why pastors should learn from women who have studied these texts and stop segregating Scripture.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:
Sandra Glahn:
Website
Substack
Instagram
Books mentioned:
A Woman's Place Is in the Story: Seeing Women in the Biblical Narrative, by Sandra Glahn

RELATED EPISODES:
Empowering Women in Ministry, with Tara Beth Leach, author of Emboldened
Against a Culture of Abuse, with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer, authors of A Church Called Tov
Leadership Through the Lens of Hebrews, with Amy Peeler, author of Hebrews: Commentaries for Christian Formation
Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!
Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
49 min
September 29Ministry in an Age of Deportation, with Marcos Canales
Marcos Canales is the pastor of La Fuente Ministries, a bilingual, intercultural congregation in Pasadena, California, and a PhD student at Fuller Theological Seminary. In this conversation, Markus Watson and Marcos talk about ministry in a community reeling from both the Eaton fire and ongoing ICE enforcement, why Marcos describes it as an enforcement of terror, what a robust theology of suffering looks like, and how churches removed from the front lines can stand in solidarity without centering themselves.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:
Why Marcos describes current immigration enforcement as an enforcement of terror, and how it echoes the violence many Latin American families fled.
How the Eaton fire and ICE operations compounded trauma in Pasadena and Altadena within a single month.
Bilingual ministry as a daily practice of rehumanization.
Why theologies that rush people toward superficial hope end up wounding them more.
Gustavo Gutiérrez's reading of Job and the call to keep talking to God in the midst of suffering.
The risen Jesus who never hides his wounds, and what that means for wounded leaders.
Grief stations, gratitude, and building a congregational culture where lament is a spiritual practice.
Resistance and re-existence, from prayer vigils to letters for people detained at Adelanto.
Four concrete steps for majority-white churches that want to stand with immigrant neighbors.
Marcos closes the conversation by praying the Immigrant's Creed.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:
Marcos Canales:
La Fuente Ministries
More about La Fuente Ministries
Giving opportunities for migrant solidarity:
Clergy Community Coalition
La Fuente Ministries Compassion Fund (choose "LFM Compasión-Compassion Fund")
Books mentioned:
On Job: God-Talk and the Suffering of the Innocent, by Gustavo Gutiérrez
The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness, by Michelle Alexander
Other resources:
The Immigrant's Creed / El Credo del Inmigrante, by Rev. José Luis Casal, director of Presbyterian World Mission

RELATED EPISODES:
Episode 143: How the Church Can Respond to Immigration, with Karen Gonzalez, author of Beyond Welcome
Episode 268: Borderless Faith, with Seth Clark, lead pastor of The Border Church
Episode 287: Leadership and Lament, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson
Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!
Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
1 hr 28 min
September 15America's Military Fetish and the Church's Silence, with Ben Daniel, author of Grace Over Guns
Ben Daniel is the Senior Pastor of Montclair Presbyterian Church in Oakland, California, and the author of Grace Over Guns: Pursuing Peace in a Militarized World. In this conversation, Markus Watson and Ben talk about the quiet reverence for military power that has crept into American Christianity, what it cost Ben personally to stop standing for the national anthem, and why he believes the church's silence on militarism is a form of complicity.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:
Ben Daniel argues that American Christianity has developed an unspoken reverence for military power that borders on idolatry.
The conversation traces how flags, uniforms, and anthems entered church sanctuaries and became fused with Christian identity.
Ben shares the moment that led him to stop standing for the national anthem, and the backlash it brought from his own congregation.
Markus and Ben discuss Dietrich Bonhoeffer's witness during the firebombing of Dresden as a model for costly, embodied pacifism.
Ben makes the case that silence from the pulpit on militarism is itself a form of complicity.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:
Ben Daniel:
Montclair Presbyterian Church
Books mentioned:
Grace Over Guns: Pursuing Peace in a Militarized World, by Ben Daniel
Just Peacemaking: Ten Practices for Abolishing War, by Glen Stassen
The Log from the Sea of Cortez, by John Steinbeck

RELATED EPISODES:
Episode 234: Political Power and American Evangelicalism, with Tim Alberta, author of The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory
Episode 143: How the Church Can Respond to Immigration, with Karen Gonzalez, author of Beyond Welcome
Episode 228: Dismantling the Myth of the White God, with Grace Ji-Sun Kim, author of When God Became White
Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!
Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
56 min
September 01317. Church Growth Without the Machine Mentality, with Kurt Fredrickson, author of Compelled
Is the church still relevant in a post-Christendom world? Kurt Fredrickson returns to Spiritual Life and Leadership to talk about his new book, Compelled, and to make the case that the local church, done right, is still "a small working model of the kingdom of God." Markus Watson and Fredrickson talk about why so many congregations operate like machines built to produce bigger Sundays, and what it would take to tend them like gardens instead.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:
The church is still relevant because it functions as a small working model of the kingdom of God.
Eugene Peterson's definition: the church is "named people in particular places who practice a life of resurrection."
Why the church of the 1950s can't simply be repeated in a post-Christendom, polarized culture.
The garden-versus-machine metaphor on the cover of Compelled, and what it means to disrupt a congregation's system instead of engineering it.
Deprofessionalizing the clergy: the provocative claim that professional clergy can become "the greatest impediment to the work of the church."
Releasing the five-fold gifts of Ephesians so ministry isn't bottlenecked in the pastor's office.
The isolation-plus-depletion-plus-conflict formula for how pastors get in trouble, and the ABCs (Abide, Breathe, Connect) for staying healthy.
Kurt Fredrickson's own journey from twenty-four years pastoring a booming, machine-like congregation to asking, "would our community even miss us?"
A story about a congregation that moved communion to the center of the room during a season of painful conflict.
Why hospitality and the Lord's Table are the two disciplines Fredrickson considers essential for a missional community.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:
Kurt Fredrickson:
Faculty bio
Books mentioned:
Compelled: Nurturing Local Missional Communities, by Kurt Fredrickson
The Pastor as Gardener: A Renewed Vision for Ministry, by Matthew Erickson and Winn Collier
The Pastor as Midwife: Life-Giving Leadership for the Healing of the Church, by Shawna Songer Gaines
The Patient Ferment of the Early Church, by Alan Kreider
Related episodes:
103. Willingness to Adapt: The Church After Covid, with Kurt Fredrickson and Cameron Lee
313. Embodied Spirituality for Pastors and Leaders, with Mark Scandrette and Dave Kludt
314. Why Good Leaders Sometimes Make Their Churches Worse, with JR Woodward
Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!
Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
54 min
August 18316. How Work Forms (and Sometimes Deforms) Us with Matt Rusten, author of Pastoring for Monday
Are your congregants' jobs a distraction from their discipleship, or one of the main places it actually happens? Matt Rusten, president of Made to Flourish and editor-in-chief of Common Good Magazine, joins Markus to explore the theology of work and what it looks like for pastors and churches to help their people see their everyday jobs as spiritually significant.

This Episode's Highlights Include:
Why the Bible introduces God as a maker before it describes him as holy or merciful
What it means that every person in your pews has a "sphere of dominion" in their work
How work forms your congregation over time, and how it can quietly deform them
Why Jesus used work as the backdrop for most of his parables
Why John the Baptist sent tax collectors and soldiers back into their same jobs
Practical ways your church can help people connect faith and work: small groups, "This Time Tomorrow" interviews, and pastoral workplace visits

Relevant Resources and Links:
Pastoring for Monday by Matt Rusten
Made to Flourish

RELATED EPISODES:
288. Leadership That Smells Like the Gospel, with Jason Jensen
272. Beyond Church Revitalization, with Josh Hayden
247. The Kingdom of God as Present Reality
Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!
Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
52 min
July 14315: A New Framework for the Abortion Conversation, with Angela Weszely
Angela Weszely is the founder and CEO of ProGrace and the author of Becoming ProGrace: Expanding the Abortion Conversation Beyond Life Versus Choice. Twenty-one years ago she took a job at a Christian pregnancy center in Chicago and immediately felt the tension between what the organization said it believed and how it actually treated women. That tension became a decade-long journey that led her to found ProGrace. In this conversation, Angela and Markus explore what it looks like for the church to actually resemble Jesus in how it responds to abortion and unintended pregnancy.
This Episode's Highlights Include:
Angela's journey from a legalistic upbringing into leading a Christian pregnancy organization
The four theological frameworks Christians get wrong about abortion: equal value and dignity, political identity over Christian identity, grace, and shared responsibility
Why only 7% of women, and 16% of church-going women, ever approach a church before an abortion decision
The narrative that shames women and lets partners off the hook
What the story of the woman caught in adultery in John 8 actually reveals about grace and systemic injustice
What it means to be the beloved, and why that identity changes how we respond to people in crisis
The objectification hiding inside the abortion debate
Relevant Resources and Links:
Becoming ProGrace: Expanding the Abortion Conversation Beyond Life Versus Choice, by Angela Weszely
ProGrace
Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!
Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
59 min
June 30314. Why Good Leaders Sometimes Make Their Churches Worse, with JR Woodward
JR Woodward is the National Director of the V3 Movement, a faculty member in the Doctor of Global Leadership cohort at Fuller Theological Seminary, and the author of The Scandal of Leadership: Unmasking the Powers of Domination in the Church. In this conversation, JR and Markus explore what it looks like to lead communities that bring the Kingdom of God to life in the places where we live.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:
What it means that Jesus's primary message was the kingdom of God, and how that shapes everything a church does
Shalom as a holistic picture of human flourishing: restored relationships with God, others, creation, and ourselves
The NEAR framework for understanding a neighborhood: Narrative, Ethics, Associations, Rituals
The four spaces of belonging and how Jesus inhabited all four: intimate (3–4), personal (5–12), social (20–50), public (70+)
Why closed discipleship groups differ from open missional spaces, and why you can't build depth if the door is always open
How people often belong before they believe, and how behavior changes before beliefs do
How our desires are shaped by whoever we look up to, and how this creates rivalry and division in churches
How conflict in a congregation can escalate until one person becomes the target
What Philippians 2 teaches about giving up honor and titles as a path to healthier leadership
How love of image, institutional self-preservation, and ideology become corrupting forces in church life
Oscar Romero as a real-world example of the downward path of leadership
V3 Movement's interdenominational church planting training
The Doctor of Global Leadership cohort at Fuller Seminary

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:
The Scandal of Leadership, by JR Woodward
V3 Movement
Fuller Doctor of Global Leadership Program

RELATED EPISODES:
288. Leadership That Smells Like the Gospel, with Jason Jensen
272. Beyond Church Revitalization, with Josh Hayden
247. The Kingdom of God as Present Reality
Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!
Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
1 hr 2 min
June 16313. Embodied Spirituality for Pastors and Leaders, with Mark Scandrette and Dave Kludt
Mark Scandrette has spent over twenty years wrestling with a hard realization: knowing a lot about God doesn't mean you're good at following Jesus. Dave Kludt spent fifteen years in pastoral ministry learning that everything, down to how you arrange the chairs in a room, forms people. Together they co-teach a Doctor of Ministry cohort at Fuller Seminary built around two words: integral and embodied. Mark is the founder of Reimagine and author of Practicing the Way of Jesus and The Ninefold Path of Jesus, and a longtime friend of the podcast (he first joined us back on episode 112). Dave is the president of Reimagine's board, a former pastor of 15 years, and Mark's partner in this new cohort, a Substack, and an upcoming podcast.

IN THIS CONVERSATION:
Why "getting more information" doesn't lead to transformation, and what does
What Dave means by an "integral" approach to formation, and why it starts with facing the world's fractures honestly
What Mark means by "embodied" formation, and the Learning Lab model Reimagine uses to teach by doing
Why the leader of a Learning Lab has to be a participant, not just an expert
Moving from a "closed fist" to an "open hand" posture toward your next step
Why discomfort with failure gets in the way of formation in many churches
How Mark and Dave use the Enneagram as a formation tool, not a personality quiz
The "formation edges" Mark and Dave are each working on right now
Mark and Dave's hopes for the Fuller Doctor of Ministry cohort on integral and embodied formation

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:
markscandrette.com — Mark's website
reimagine.org — Mark and Dave's organization
Fuller Seminary's Doctor of Ministry program
Books mentioned:
Practicing the Way of Jesus, by Mark Scandrette
The Ninefold Path of Jesus, by Mark Scandrette

RELATED EPISODES:
The Beatitudes and Spiritual Leadership, with Mark Scandrette
The Spiritual Life of a Leader, with Tod Bolsinger
The Neuroscience of Spiritual Formation, with Jim Wilder
Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!
Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
53 min
June 02312. What if Reading Was a Form of Prayer? with Jeff Crosby, author of World of Wonders
Jeff Crosby reads about 75 books a year. But in this conversation—his third appearance on the podcast—he's quick to say the number isn't the point. What matters is what reading does to you, including what he calls being "unselfed." Jeff Crosby is a 24-year veteran of InterVarsity Press, current executive with ECPA, and author of World of Wonders: A Spirituality of Reading.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:
jeffreycrosby.net — Jeff's website, including his books and information on his forthcoming book on music
ECPA — Evangelical Christian Publishers Association, where Jeff serves
Books mentioned:
World of Wonders: A Spirituality of Reading, by Jeff Crosby
Every Moment Holy, Vol. I, by Douglas Kaine McKelvey
A Diary of Private Prayer, by John Baillie
Reading While Black, by Esau McCaulley
The Cross and the Lynching Tree, by James H. Cone
Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes, by Kenneth E. Bailey
Plainsong, by Kent Haruf
Eventide, by Kent Haruf
Benediction, by Kent Haruf
Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis
The Ragamuffin Gospel, by Brennan Manning
A Touch of Wonder, by Arthur Gordon
RELATED EPISODES:
Episode 194: Saudade, Leadership, and Nurturing the Inner Life, with Jeff Crosby
Episode 96: Crossing Leadership Thresholds, with Jeff Crosby
Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!
Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
50 min
May 19311. Beyond Paperwork: How Administration Fuels Ministry, with Jana Holiday, author of Taking Good Care
Administration is more than paperwork—it’s a spiritual calling. Jana Holiday, author of Taking Good Care: Administration for Christian Formation, explores how stewardship, imagination, and hospitable leadership can transform administration into a ministry of care and Christian formation.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:
Jana Holiday explains that she loves administration because it involves solving problems and collaborating to move people, resources, and projects toward fulfilling a mission.
Administration centers on stewardship—taking good care of people, resources, and projects.
Jana Holiday connects the idea of stewardship to Genesis 1, positioning it as an expression of imago Dei and a pursuit of good work and good results.
Effective administration requires reflection, intentionality, and love.
Jana Holiday cautions against letting the pursuit of productivity override empathy and care in leadership.
Administration works best when it is open-handed and welcoming, rather than controlling and restrictive.
Administrators must choose between stewardship—an open invitation—and dominion, which relies on control.
Jana Holiday warns that exercising dominion in administration risks missing out on the collective wisdom and creativity of a group.
Administrative work is not unspiritual; all good work—including administration—can be ministry and part of Christian formation.
Jana Holiday introduces three categories related to work: jobs, callings, and invitations, suggesting that many administrative roles may function as invitations from God more than callings.
Approaching administrative work as an invitation can lead to a more purposeful and responsive engagement with people and resources.
Markus Watson and Jana Holiday discuss the importance of boundaries for administrators and the need for leaders to help protect staff from being overloaded by excessive demands.
Over-functioning and under-functioning both erode trust in organizational settings.
Jana Holiday suggests administrators regularly audit their responsibilities and seek feedback from colleagues to maintain a healthy balance in their roles.
Hospitable administration involves creating belonging and valuing people as part of stewardship, not just completing tasks.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:
Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
IDEO (Design & Innovation Firm)
Books mentioned:
Taking Good Care, by Jana Holliday
Designing Your Life, by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans
Designing Your Work Life, by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans
The Art of Innovation, by Tom Kelley
RELATED EPISODE'S:
Healing Workplace Wounds, with Meryl Herr
Trust, Teams, and Transformational Leadership, with Mike Bonem
Pursuing Your Purpose, with Nicholas Pearce
Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!
Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
51 min

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Ministry leadership is about more than just growing your church or organization. It’s about participating in God’s mission in the world. But how can leaders know God’s mission or their unique place…