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Ministry can stir up all kinds of feelings, especially when we’re dealing with conflict, with grief, with change. And the better we understand what’s happening beneath the surface, the better we can lead ourselves—and our people—more thoughtfully and more effectively.

In this episode, I’m speaking with Dr. Audrey Davidheiser, a licensed psychologist and the author of Grieving Wholeheartedly. Audrey helps us understand something called Internal Family Systems—IFS—a powerful way of thinking about our inner world and all those “parts” of us that can get in the way of effective leadership.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Audrey Davidheiser explains what drew her to Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy.
• Internal Family Systems is a psychological model that views people as having multiple internal "parts."
• Parts of yourself often express themselves in day-to-day decisions, sometimes even in conflict with each other.
• Markus Watson clarifies that having "parts" is different from dissociative identity disorder or multiple personalities.
• Audrey Davidheiser explains the difference between parts in IFS and the rigid, unaware system found in Dissociative Identity Disorder.
• Internal Family Systems builds on the foundation of family systems theory, adapting it to the internal world.
• Inside everyone are parts that take on different roles, often formed in response to significant experiences, such as trauma or relational wounds.
• Markus Watson illustrates the concept with the example of feeling different internal responses to everyday situations like going to a late-night movie.
• Every person has both helpful and challenging internal parts, such as critics, achievers, or comfort-seekers, and these parts influence behavior.
• Audrey Davidheiser introduces three types of parts in IFS: exiles (hurt parts), managers (protective parts), and firefighters (distracting/soothing parts).
• Parts are not inherently bad; even when their actions are destructive, they are typically trying to protect us or relieve pain.
• Markus Watson inquires about the relationship between sin and IFS, prompting Audrey Davidheiser to articulate how parts can miss the mark despite good intentions.
• Pastors can benefit from understanding their own internal parts, especially when reacting to challenging questions or situations in ministry.
• Audrey Davidheiser suggests the practice of being "unblended"—letting the true Self, rather than an emotional part, lead when responding to others.
• Leaders who operate from their "Self" (instead of from a part) can foster healthier responses and guide their communities through change with greater empathy and wisdom.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Audrey Davidheiser
  • Aim For Breakthrough website
• Books mentioned:
  • Grieving Wholeheartedly, by Audrey Davidheiser
• Related Episodes:
  • 262: From Fired to Flourishing, with Chuck DeGroat
  • 254: Endless Expectations and Emotional Exhaustion

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Learn how keeping “the main thing the main thing” can transform your church’s mission, focus your decisions, and unite your community as one body in Christ.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Terry A. Smith in Ep. 266, The Church as Shalom Maker:

"I work so hard to make sure that we keep the main thing the main thing, that we don't get caught up in things that keep us from who we are supposed to be as one body in Christ."

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Leaders clarify the main purpose by engaging in candid conversations about mission.
• Churches discern their mission by identifying who they are called to reach and impact.
• Teams make decisions more effectively when their mission and values are clearly defined.
• Leaders recognize that clarity about core values prepares organizations for necessary change.
• Focusing on the main thing helps communities avoid distractions from their calling as one body in Christ.

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Bias isn’t always about the big, obvious issues. Sometimes it shows up in the subtle, everyday moments—like who we compliment, who we listen to, and how we respond to change. It’s part of being human, but as leaders, it’s our calling to become aware of those biases so we can lead with greater humility and clarity.

In this episode, Erin Devers, author of The Unbiased Self, shares the science behind bias, why it’s so hard to see in ourselves, and how anchoring our identity in Christ creates the freedom to lead—and live—in a much healthier and more effective way.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Bias is anything that prevents people from seeing reality accurately, not just issues of race or gender.
• Erin Devers describes a "cute" experiment where giving compliments—even insincerely—boosts happiness for both giver and receiver.
• People underestimate how enjoyable giving and receiving compliments will be, which shows a bias against social engagement.
• Erin Devers highlights that everyone has biases, and recognizing them is foundational to personal and spiritual growth.
• People have a "bias blind spot," making it much easier to see others' biases than their own.
• Erin Devers emphasizes Jesus’ teaching about removing the plank from one’s own eye as a reference to addressing personal bias.
• Self-esteem plays a major role in bias, as people spin stories to feel good about themselves, sometimes at the expense of accuracy.
• Attempts to feel right and to feel good about oneself are two core sources of bias in human thinking.
• Markus Watson connects the discussion to everyday church life, pointing out how bias impacts how pastors perceive congregants.
• Erin Devers explains that a secure identity as a child of God and sinner saved by grace allows Christians to pursue accuracy rather than always needing to be right.
• Rooting identity in something secure—whether faith-based or intrinsic human value—helps people approach disagreement with less defensiveness.
• Broadening perspective, such as considering larger life questions or relational values, helps reduce bias in emotionally charged situations.
• Erin Devers discusses the difference between fast thinking (quick, automatic judgments) and slow thinking (deliberate, reflective thought) and how both relate to bias.
• Habit formation and intentional practices like reducing social media can create space for deeper connection, reflection, and less biased engagement within communities.
• Markus Watson addresses how pastors identify which congregants will support or resist change, revealing how bias shapes leadership decisions.
• Erin Devers encourages church leaders to acknowledge the collective bias toward doing what is easiest when leading change, while grounding stability in God’s presence.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Erin Devers, Indiana Wesleyan University
• Books mentioned:
  • The Unbiased Self, by Erin Devers
• Related episodes:
  • 252. Navigating the Pain of Being Othered, with Jenai Auman

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Learn how small, daring experiments from the edges can spark meaningful change in your church—without sending everyone into panic mode.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Raymond Chang in Ep. 164, Building a Future-Focused Church.

"We recommend that people consider additional, and smaller experiments from the edges that are likely to move the congregation in the direction that it needs to go without being too disruptive."

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Leaders move congregations forward by initiating small experiments rather than launching large, disruptive initiatives.
• Congregations learn and adapt best when leaders guide them through a series of modest, incremental changes.
• Leaders invite trust and participation when they approach change as co-learners rather than as experts.
• Experimenting at the margins allows churches to discover real community needs before making significant shifts.
• Genuine experiments help congregations clarify their direction by focusing on questions and learning rather than predetermined outcomes.

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What do you do when the tried-and-true ways of doing church just aren’t working anymore? When everything you once relied on—Sunday services, eye-catching signage, the best coffee in the foyer—still leaves your church feeling disconnected from your community?

In this episode, Shannon Kiser, author of Opening Space: A Vision for Fresh Expressions of Church and Creative Mission, shares about what “fresh expressions” of church means, why the old attractional models are no longer enough, and how ministry leaders can begin to reimagine church for a spiritually curious but institutionally wary world.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Markus Watson shares statistics that reveal most American churches are plateaued or declining, and the majority of major denominations are aging.
• Shannon Kiser urges church leaders to rethink how they engage with a spiritually curious culture that may be wary of traditional church settings.
• Many people possess spiritual curiosity even if they are hesitant or unwilling to attend church gatherings.
• Markus Watson describes how even the physical space of a church building can feel intimidating and unfamiliar to outsiders.
• Shannon Kiser explains that Fresh Expressions seeks to equip leaders to start new forms of Christian community tailored to their local context.
• Fresh Expressions focuses on innovative gatherings—like dinner churches, hiking groups, or park meetups—rather than just worship services.
• Markus Watson asks Shannon Kiser to define Fresh Expressions and how they originated from creative responses to declining church attendance in the UK.
• Shannon Kiser describes Fresh Expressions as new forms of church that often look very different from traditional Sunday morning gatherings.
• Healthy churches should diversify their ministry approaches and embrace what Shannon Kiser calls a "blended ecology."
• Focusing solely on Sunday attendance and budgets is unlikely to reverse church decline.
• Markus Watson highlights the impact stories from the church’s outreach—such as coffee shops and lunch ministries—can have on the congregation’s spiritual vitality.
• Congregations can raise their spiritual temperature and feel more alive by engaging in mission outside their traditional gatherings.
• Shannon Kiser recommends listening to the community and beginning with simple, small experiments that fit the church’s context and resources.
• Forming Fresh Expressions requires different types of people: pioneers who connect and lead, permission givers who open doors, and supporters who help behind the scenes.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Fresh Expressions website
• Books mentioned:
  • Opening Space, by Shannon Kiser
• Related episodes:
  • 177. Exploring New Forms of Church, with Shannon Kiser
  • 264. Building a Future-Focused church, with Kara Powell, Jake Mulder, and Raymond Chang
  • 272. Beyond Church Revitalization, with Josh Hayden

Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.

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Learn how real transformation in leadership begins when we shift our focus from what’s happening to us to what’s happening within us.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Chuck DeGroat in Ep. 262, Fro Fired to Flourishing.

“I had to turn my attention from what happened to me to what was happening within me."

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Change leaders cultivate self-awareness by focusing on their internal responses rather than solely external circumstances.
• Transformative leadership requires individuals to process their own emotional reactions before leading others through change.
• Leaders grow when they move beyond blaming external events and explore what pain reveals about their deeper character.
• Navigating difficult transitions means finding growth by going through challenges, not simply avoiding or getting over them.
• Lasting change in ministry or leadership begins when individuals reflect on and learn from their personal setbacks.

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More and more, we find ourselves living in what we might call a post-Christian society.  And more and more, preachers and ministry leaders are finding that the methods they were trained in don’t always resonate in a post-Christian context. 

In this episode, Mark Glanville, the author of Preaching in a New Key, brings together his experience as a jazz musician, pastor, and a scholar of the Old Testament to invite us into a new vision for preaching—one that helps us navigate the transition from Christian to post-Christian culture. 

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Mark Glanville explains that both jazz and Christian faith involve learning and internalizing tradition, then improvising freshly within it.
• Jazz musicians practice and absorb the rhythms and melodies of their tradition, but always play something new in performance.
• Mark Glanville illustrates how biblical preachers should immerse themselves in scripture, becoming shaped by its themes and stories, much like jazz musicians learn their craft.
• The biblical tradition requires creative and contextual re-interpretation, as seen in how ancient scribes reimagined the metaphor of covenant.
• Preaching in a post-Christian society means recognizing that faith no longer enjoys cultural support and must grapple with mixed experiences of doubt and trust.
• Mark Glanville describes post-Christian contexts as places where church and societal values diverge, making the preaching task more complex.
• Congregants bring complex emotional and spiritual questions to church, rather than the simple expectation of receiving trusted doctrine.
• Markus Watson notes that contemporary preaching requires greater sensitivity, awareness of listeners’ stories, and often more lyrical, dialogical communication.
• Mark Glanville emphasizes gaining relational intelligence through ongoing pastoral conversations and deep listening with parishioners.
• Preaching today involves “reversing the flow”—rather than proclaiming “thus says the Lord,” preachers reveal the beauty of Jesus within the text and invite fresh connection.
• Mark Glanville highlights that healthy preaching depends on the preacher’s own healthy inner and emotional life.
• Preachers must recognize when they are operating from their “defended self”—speaking from wounds or fear, rather than from a secure, loving place in Christ.
• Scripture addresses communities, not individuals, so preaching should prioritize communal formation and invite congregations to embody Christ together.
• Mark Glanville encourages pastors to preach, model, and pray for the transformation they seek, stirring the congregation’s collective imagination and trusting the Spirit to work through everyone, not just the leadership.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Mark Glanville:
  • Website – www.markglanville.org
  • Blue Note Theology podcast
• Books mentioned:
  • Preaching in a New Key, by Mark Glanville
  • Refuge Reimagined, by Mark Glanville and Luke Glanville
• Related episodes:
  • 250. The Prophetic Challenge of Deconstruction, with Scot McKnight
  • 256. Digital Disruption and the Future of the Church

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Discover why true leadership means having the courage to make tough decisions—even when it means disappointing the people you care about most.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Rich Stearns in Ep. 105, Courageous Leadership.

"Leaders have to make difficult decisions.  And difficult decisions require courage."

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Leaders cultivate courage by making difficult decisions that may disappoint their own people.
• Adaptive leaders accept that faithfully living out the mission often requires sacrificing personal approval.
• Great leaders guide people through uncomfortable transformation, not just toward easy change.
• Leaders strengthen their courage by surrounding themselves with friends, partners, and mentors.
• True leadership calls communities to transformational journeys, even when the leader personally bears the cost.

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In a world that celebrates rapid growth, platform-building, and constant success, it’s easy to take on leadership strategies that promise bigger, better, and faster results. But when these approaches clash with the invitation of Jesus to embrace the cross, where does true, lasting influence come from?

In this episode, Nicole Massie Martin, author of Nailing It, unpacks the spiritual paradox at the heart of healthy leadership—how surrender, humility, and even seasons of struggle can form us as leaders and empower the people we serve.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCUDE:

• Christian leaders often merge values like maximizing and growing their ministries, risking a "resurrection only" mindset that ignores suffering.
• Markus Watson highlights that the moments of deepest closeness with God often emerge from times of pain.
• Nicole Martin frames power neutrally, stating that its impact depends on how leaders use it—to empower or to hoard.
• Power must be used for God’s glory and for empowering others, not for self-aggrandizement.
• Markus Watson admits that the temptation for influence and control is a real struggle in leadership, even when intentions are good.
• Nicole Martin explains that surrendering power as a leader looks like developing teams and creating an environment where others feel empowered to fulfill their calling.
• Nicole Martin shares a personal story of feeling powerless as a board member until another leader affirmed her authority and encouraged her participation.
• Empowerment should be modeled by leaders who intentionally invite others to use their own power and gifts.
• Ego is complex and influenced by cultural worldviews such as honor-shame, guilt-innocence, and power-fear.
• Nicole Martin emphasizes the importance of anchoring one’s self-worth in the love of God, not in achievement or shame.
• Markus Watson describes how personal failure and pain loosened his unhealthy grip on ego and led him to ground his worth in being God’s beloved.
• Nicole Martin asserts that healthy ego in leadership is characterized by deep confidence, humility, and openness, rooted in one’s belovedness by God.
• Leaders must recalibrate their pace and surrender speed to God’s timing, resisting the burnout that comes from adopting the relentless pace of the world.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Christianity Today
• Soulfire International Ministries
• Books mentioned:
  • Nailing It, by Nicole Massie Martin
  • Life of the Beloved, by Henri Nouwen
  • Abba’s Child, by Brennan Manning
  • Surrender to Love, by David Benner
  • Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, by Peter Scazero
  • Falling Upward, by Richard Rohr
• Related episodes:
  • 112. The Beatitudes and Spiritual Leadership, with Mark Scandrette
  • 252. Navigating the Pain of Being Othered, with Jenai Auman

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In a post-pandemic world, what does it really mean to be a “small,” “mid-sized,” or even “very large” church? Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger explore Thom Rainer’s recommendations to recategorize church size, reflect on the unique strengths and challenges of congregations of all sizes, and examine why church health and faithfulness matter more than impressive attendance numbers. Whether you’re a pastor, church leader, or simply curious about the evolving landscape of church leadership, this episode challenges us to rethink our assumptions—and reminds us that fruitful ministry comes in every size.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this article by Thom Rainer: "The New Very Large Church."

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Church leaders reframe success by focusing on fruitfulness rather than congregation size.
• Pastors adapt their leadership style to match the unique needs of different-sized churches.
• Post-pandemic, churches redefine size categories to reflect new attendance realities.
• Faithful, missionally active congregations thrive regardless of their numerical growth.
• Discernment and subtraction become vital leadership skills when resources decrease.

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.