Introducing Credible Witness, a new podcast produced by Mark Labberton and the Rethinking Church Initiative.

In this episode of Conversing, Mark features the full premiere episode of Credible Witness, and is joined by host Nikki Toyama-Szeto and historian Jemar Tisby.

Exploring how Christian witness to the gospel of Christ has become compromised—and what might restore its credibility. Reflecting on five years of candid, challenging conversation among diverse Christian leaders during the wake of George Floyd’s murder and rising Christian nationalism, the three discuss the soul-searching, disillusionment, and hope that emerged.

Together, they examine the cultural fractures, theological tensions, and moral failures that have pushed many to extremes, elevating strident voices as an increased number of people to leave the church.

They articulate the mission and vision of Credible Witness, testify to a persistent hope in Jesus and the power of honest community, face painful truths, and imagine a church that more truly reflects the love, justice, and mercy of God.

Key Moments

1. “We absolutely get that… but we’re still on board with Jesus. And Jesus has always been with us and hasn’t left us.”
2. “This isn’t about leaving Jesus. This is about following Jesus.”
3. “We’ve got a better story to tell.”
4. “It was the church that was putting the church at risk.”
5. “The church has a reputation in the United States… and not a good one by and large.”

About the Guests

Nikki Toyama-Szeto is the host of Credible Witness, and is executive director of Christians for Social Action, equipping the church to pursue justice and follow Jesus in the tension of our times.

Jemar Tisby is the author of The Color of Compromise and How to Fight Racism, and founder of The Witness: A Black Christian Collective. He is the host of Pass the Mic.

• “This isn’t about leaving Jesus. This is about following Jesus.” —Jemar Tisby
• Nikki introduces Credible Witness as a space for honest stories of faith amid moral complexity and social tension
• Mark recalls the origins of the conversation in summer 2020: COVID-19, George Floyd, church division, and racial injustice
• Jemar Tisby clarifies the mission for imagining a more credible Christian witness
• Nikki reflects on trust-building in a space that welcomed “tricky truths” and honesty without pretense
• The group’s five-year journey begins as a short experiment but grows into a lasting community of deep discernment
• “We weren’t trying to replicate any harm.” —Jemar Tisby
• The group names white Christian nationalism and silence on injustice as threats to the church’s credibility
• Ephesians 2 and the power of “coming together of the unlikes” as a witness to the resurrection
• “It was the church that was putting the gospel at risk.” —Mark Labberton
• Nikki explains how church neutrality began to speak volumes: “Choosing silence was actually a loud voice.”
• Discussion on the failure of integrity: “Too many things in isolation” eroded credibility
• Jemar highlights story as central to public theology: “We’ve got a better story to tell.”
• The group wrestles with algorithmic distortion and toxic digital narratives shaping Christian identity
• “Not just message, but embodiment”: The church’s credibility depends on lived ethics, not just theological claims
• Mark emphasizes self-examination: “Are we credible?”
• Dissonance and disagreement as gifts: “What kept people in the room was the gift of dissonance.” —Nikki Toyama-Szeto
• Jemar recalls moments of tension over how to prioritize justice issues while remaining unified in Christ
• The group’s diversity as a deliberate strategy: different traditions, backgrounds, and responsibilities within the church
• Nikki names divine timing: the conversation is more urgent now than when it began
• “We’re not all supposed to be the same... That’s how everything gets covered.” —Jemar Tisby
• Mark frames the church’s failure as internal implosion—not external threat
• “Why is the church seemingly so unchanged?” —Mark Labberton
• Nikki describes how marginalized voices carry wisdom for the way forward
• Jemar articulates the podcast’s goal: a mirror and a window for listeners to see both themselves and the larger church
• Nikki closes with an invitation to slow down and listen generously: “Pull up a chair...”

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

In the aftermath of the devastating Eaton Canyon Fire in Altadena, California, three Pasadena community leaders—Mayra Macedo-Nolan, Pastor Kerwin Manning, and Megan Katerjian—join host Mark Labberton for a sobering and hopeful conversation on what it takes to rebuild homes, neighbourhoods, and lives. Together they discuss their personal losses, the long-term trauma facing their neighbours, the racial and economic disparities exposed by disaster, and how the church is rising to meet these challenges with grit, grace, and faith.

Their stories illuminate how a community holds fast when the media leaves, when vultures circle, and when the work is just beginning. This is a conversation about sacred presence, practical resilience, and the enduring witness of faithful service—even in the ashes.

Mayra Macedo-Nolan is executive director of the Clergy Community Coalition of Greater Pasadena

Kerwin Manning is senior pastor of Pasadena Church

Megan Katerjian is CEO of Door of Hope Ministries

Helpful Links and Resources

• Door of Hope Pasadena – Family homelessness intervention and fire assistance program
• Pasadena Church – Kerwin Manning’s congregation and relief center
• Clergy Community Coalition of Greater Pasadena – Mayra Macedo-Nolan’s organization supporting pastors and churches
• Isaiah 61:3 – “Beauty for ashes” verse referenced by Kerwin
• Andre Crouch – “Soon and Very Soon” – Gospel anthem of hope quoted by Pastor Kerwin

Show Notes

• CCC (Clergy Community Coalition) rapidly pivoted to virtual meetings the morning after hurricane-force winds and fire struck Altadena.
• “We moved it to virtual … and then we had no idea what was gonna happen that evening and overnight.” —Mayra Macedo-Nolan
• After the fire started, fifty-six participants gathered online, including city leaders and faith-based partners, forming a core response network.
• “Everybody wanted to be together … especially in a crisis like this.” —Mayra
• Pastor Kerwin and his wife Madeline evacuated with almost no notice after hearing the sheriff outside their door.
• “We, Madeline and I, like so many others, were fleeing for our lives.” —Kerwin Manning
• For weeks, they didn’t know whether their home was still standing; the priority became their church and community.
• “We didn’t know if our home was standing … we were more concerned about our church, our community.” —Kerwin
• Pasadena Church began relief work immediately—even before confirming their own housing stability.
• “This is the first interview or anything I’ve done online back in my home.” —Kerwin
• Door of Hope’s CEO evacuated with her children and lost her home; she quickly organized shelter responses for others.
• “I found out that my house had been entirely destroyed.” —Megan Katerjian
• Within ten days, Door of Hope launched a formal housing assistance program for fire-affected families.
• “Door of Hope had launched what we call the Eaton Fire Housing Assistance Program.” —Megan
• The CCC became a spiritual and logistical backbone for Altadena’s recovery, activating two decades of community-building.
• “This was a time that it was really important for the local clergy to be in conversation with one another.” —Mayra
• Pasadena Church became a distribution hub, serving as far east as any organization in the city.
• “We wore our church members out.” —Kerwin
• Over two months, the church distributed daily essentials from 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m., shifting to a long-term weekly rhythm.
• “We thought we would do it for a couple of weeks … we were doing it every day … for about two months straight.” —Kerwin
• “We might run out of water, we might run out of toothpaste, but we refuse to run out of smiles and kindness.” —Kerwin
• Altadena’s west side—long a haven for black and brown families—suffered the worst structural damage and displacement.
• “Altadena had been a haven really for black and brown families who couldn’t purchase homes anywhere.” —Mayra
• Many affected residents were informal renters or multigenerational households without clear legal housing claims.
• “These are the stories of people … for whom there is no path back to Altadena anytime soon.” —Megan
• Eleven churches were lost or damaged, including small and under-resourced congregations still unsure about rebuilding.
• “We lost ten houses of worship, and one was partially burned … essentially eleven.” —Mayra
• Local churches served both members and neighbors regardless of formal affiliation, often the first to show up with aid.
• “We don’t do any of this work alone.” —Megan
• CCC supports over a hundred churches across Pasadena with infrastructure, grants, emotional care, and community strategy.
• “We want them to be okay … and then as they serve their church members and the neighbors surrounding their church.” —Mayra
• Door of Hope offered security deposits, rent, emergency shelter, tool replacement, and even vehicles to affected families.
• “Beauty for ashes”
• “We just have to do more of it.” —Megan
• Volunteers gave out handwritten cards from kids across the country; some were shared at distribution events.
• “I’ve got a box full of cards from kids … just like it’s going to be okay. We’re praying for it.” —Kerwin
• A guiding pastoral metaphor: vultures circling a wounded deer, and the need to protect the vulnerable from predation.
• “The vultures were circling … and I covered the deer … and the vultures left.” —Kerwin
• “The needs have not slowed. …  Finances always follow just heart and compassion and awareness.” —Megan
• “You learn so much in the middle of crisis. One of the things that crisis does is it confirms character and you realize like what people are made of when you're going through something.”
• “Until. Until the need is gone, until we don’t have to do it anymore.” —Kerwin
• The immigrant community faces a second “fire”—ICE raids and deportation threats layered atop housing loss.
• “The intersection of those … the two fires, the fire that we didn’t know we were gonna have, and the fire that we knew was coming.” —Mayra
• CCC pastors protested ICE actions together, maintaining peace through community presence and music.
• “The pastors were there … and then it’s just … it’s a sacred party.” —Mayra
• Latino cultural traditions of protest, grief, and celebration shaped a healing, communal public presence.
• “We cry and we’re gonna probably celebrate and eat food and dance together.” —Mayra
• Local leaders are pushing back against a ten-year recovery timeline with a goal of rebuilding within three to five years.
• “We reject that. She said three to five years, that’s what we’re gonna push for.” —Mayra
• Community grief deepened when the first burned lot was sold; hope emerged again when the first rebuilding began.
• “There they go … it’s gonna start selling.” / “We think there was … this collective celebration.” —Mayra
• “Soon and very soon we’re gonna see the King.” —Kerwin
• Kerwin invoked Isaiah 61:3: “Beauty will rise” as a spiritual theme for their church’s recovery ministry.
• “We believe that we’re able to continue to do what we’re doing knowing that, trusting that beauty’s gonna rise.” —Kerwin
• The phrase “Altadena is not for sale” became a rallying cry—although some elders opted to relocate for peace.
• “It’s up to you. Our prayer is that more people will want to stay than leave.” —Kerwin
• Ongoing challenges include zoning delays, state and county coordination issues, and political friction at the national level.
• “The church has always been a vital provider of resources, critical social services and resources in communities on an ongoing basis in normal time.” —Mayra
• ”The greatest sense that you get from being there is people are together. There’s a sense of unity and community protection that is very palpable.”
• A sacred party
• Resilience and God’s presence and strength
• “It feels like our president doesn’t like us … our governor … whatever they’ve got going on affects us.” —Kerwin
• “The church … is always a vital provider … of resources, critical social services … in normal time.” —Mayra

About the Guests

Mayra Macedo-Nolan is executive director of the Clergy Community Coalition of Greater Pasadena, where she leads efforts to strengthen faith-based response to systemic inequities in housing, education, and social services. Formerly on pastoral staff at Lake Avenue Church, she’s spent two decades in community leadership in Pasadena and Altadena.

Pastor Kerwin Manning is senior pastor of Pasadena Church and a founding leader in the Clergy Community Coalition. A long-time advocate for youth and justice, he’s served the Pasadena community with a heart for unity, compassion, and spiritual renewal.

Megan Katerjian is CEO of Door of Hope, a Pasadena-based non-profit serving homeless and at-risk families. With over twenty years in non-profit leadership, Megan is also an ordained pastor with deep roots in faith-based social services and community development.

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Are the best days of the church behind us? Or ahead? Kara Powell and Ray Chang join Mark Labberton to discuss Future-Focused Church: Reimagining Ministry to the Next Generation, co-authored with Jake Mulder. Drawing on extensive research, practical frameworks, and decades of leadership at Fuller Seminary and the TENx10 Collaboration, Powell and Chang map a path forward for the church—one rooted in relational discipleship, kingdom diversity, and tangible neighbour love. In a moment marked by disaffiliation, disillusionment, and institutional fragility, they offer a hopeful vision: churches that are brave enough to listen deeply, lead adaptively, and partner with the next generation in mission. This conversation unpacks their “Here to There” framework, the role of human agency in ecclesial change, and why honouring young people isn’t pandering—it’s planting seeds for the future of faith.

Episode Highlights

1. “We believe the best days of the church are ahead.”
2. “Leadership begins with listening.”
3. “Unless strategy emerges out of culture, or unless the culture is changed, it’s really hard to lead.”
4. “Everything rises when we focus on young people.”
5. “Agency is the intersection of knowing, being, and doing.”

Helpful Resources and Links

• Future-Focused Church by Kara Powell, Jake Mulder, and Ray Chang (InterVarsity Press)
• Fuller Youth Institute—Research and innovation for youth ministry
• TENx10 Collaboration—Movement to help faith matter more for ten million young people over ten years
• Asian American Christian Collaborative—Equipping Asian American Christians for faithful public witness
• ”Churches and Change: Adaptive Leadership”—Heifetz on adaptive vs. technical change (Harvard Business Review)
• Rethinking Church in the 21st Century (Fuller Seminary)—Ongoing work in contextual theology and church innovation

About Kara Powell

Kara Powell is the chief of leadership formation at Fuller Seminary, executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute, and founder of the TENx10 Collaboration. A leading voice in youth ministry and church innovation, she is author or co-author of numerous books including Sticky Faith, Growing Young, and 3 Big Questions That Change Every Teenager. She is co-author of Future-Focused Church: Reimagining Ministry to the Next Generation.

About Ray Chang

Ray Chang is executive director of the TENx10 Collaboration and president of the Asian American Christian Collaborative. A pastor, activist, and writer, Ray’s work focuses on racial justice, next-gen discipleship, and building churches that reflect the diversity of God’s kingdom. He is co-author of Future-Focused Church: Reimagining Ministry to the Next Generation.

Show Notes

• Kara Powell is chief of leadership formation at Fuller Seminary and executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute
• Ray Chang is executive director of the TENx10 Collaboration and president of the Asian American Christian Collaborative
• Future-Focused Church offers a framework for adaptive change, grounded in Scripture, research, and practical leadership
• “Leadership begins with listening”—Kara shares the importance of appreciative inquiry and asking youth what matters to them
• Ray describes today’s church as “a church actively trying to define and redefine itself in tumultuous and complex times”
• Simple but powerful framework: Here to There—understanding where we are and where God is calling us next
• Three checkpoints of a future-focused church: relationally discipling young people, modelling kingdom diversity, tangibly loving our neighbours
• “Everything rises when we focus on young people”—churches flourish when the next generation is centered
• Data shows only one in three senior pastors rank young people among their top five priorities
• Kara: “I wish the problem was that young people were overly prioritized—sadly, it’s the opposite”
• Church innovation isn’t just strategic, it’s adaptive: “Culture eats strategy for breakfast.”
• Ray explains why Covid exposed the difference between technical and adaptive change in the church
• Kara: “We overestimate what we can accomplish in one year and underestimate what we can do in three to five.”
• Biblical foundations explored—Paul’s epistles blend being and doing; Galatians 5 offers a model of fruitful action
• Human agency as divine invitation—Ray: “God invites us to partner in God’s work for the flourishing of humanity”
• Kara’s church story: youth sat in the front, fully engaged—“They prioritized us”
• Simple action steps from churches include showing up to youth events and publicly celebrating young people’s milestones
• Mark Labberton challenges the idea of “pandering” to youth—Kara responds with data and theological reflection
• Ray reflects on the complex dynamics in immigrant and second-gen Asian American churches—“placelessness” and a search for belonging
• Importance of community: following Jesus together, across generations, cultures, and neighbourhoods
• Kara reframes giving: “Young people want to give to people and to purpose—not to perpetuate programs”
• “Culture is where values are held; unless strategy aligns with culture, it will be resisted”—Ray on organizational change
• Intergenerational relationships are critical—older adults model faith and love through presence and commitment
• The book offers not just direction but formation: process, practice, and people matter as much as the goal
• “If there’s ever a moment to care about the church—and young people—it’s now.”

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

With a B3 organ, a prophetic imagination, and a heart broken wide open by grace, gospel music legend Andraé Crouch (1942–2015) left an indelible mark on modern Christian worship music. In this episode, Stephen Newby and Robert Darden offer a sweeping yet intimate exploration of his life, spiritual vision, and genre-defining genius.

Together with Mark Labberton, they discuss their new biography Soon and Very Soon: The Transformative Music and Ministry of Andraé Crouch. Through laughter, lament, and lyrical memory, Newby and Darden—both scholars at Baylor University and co-authors of the first serious biography of Crouch—share stories of discovering Crouch’s music, the theological and cultural forces that shaped it, and why his legacy matters now more than ever. They offer insights about modern musical history, spiritual reflections, and cultural analysis, inviting us into the soul of a man who helped bring modern gospel into being.

Episode Highlights

1. “Musical genius is where observation, curiosity, imagination, and humility are baked in the oven.”
2. “He was always tracking what was going on in the room and in his heart. He understood the cues, clues, and codes of what God was doing.”
3. “Andraé felt it was important that the music was just as inspired as the lyrics. It was total praise.”
4. “’Soon and Very Soon’ is an ancient future song—we have to keep singing it, especially now.”
5. “Andraé burned out a lot of musicians—but all of them adore him to this day.”

Helpful Links and Resources

• Soon and Very Soon: The Transformative Music and Ministry of Andraé Crouch by Stephen Newby and Robert Darden (Penn State University Press)
• Black Gospel Music Preservation Project (Baylor University)
• “Jesus Is the Answer,” by Andraé Crouch
• “Through It All,” by Andraé Crouch
• “Soon and Very Soon,” **by Andraé Crouch
• People Get Ready! A New History of Black Gospel Music by Robert Darden

About Stephen Newby

Stephen Michael Newby is a composer, conductor, and scholar. He serves as the Lev H. Prichard III Endowed Chair in the Study of Black Worship at Baylor University and is a professor of music in the Baylor School of Music. A widely recognized expert on gospel, jazz, and black sacred music, he is also affiliated with the Black Gospel Music Preservation Project as an ambassador and collaborator. He is co-author of Soon and Very Soon: The Transformative Music and Ministry of Andraé Crouch.

About Robert Darden

Robert F. Darden is emeritus professor of journalism at Baylor University and founder of the Black Gospel Music Preservation Project. A former gospel music editor at Billboard magazine, Darden is the author of numerous books on gospel music history, including People Get Ready! A New History of Black Gospel Music and Nothing But Love in God’s Water. He is co-author of Soon and Very Soon: The Transformative Music and Ministry of Andraé Crouch.

Show Notes

• Andraé Crouch called the “father of contemporary modern gospel” for his groundbreaking influence on the genre
• Guest Stephen Newby holds the Lev H. Pritchard III Chair in Black Worship and Music at Baylor University
• Guest Robert Darden is emeritus professor of journalism at Baylor and founder of the Black Gospel Music Preservation Project
• Labberton celebrates the book’s narrative, musical, and sociocultural scope
• Crouch grew up in a Pentecostal context that encouraged musical exploration and spiritual improvisation
• Gospel rooted in KoGIC (Church of God in Christ) tradition, blending Beale Street sounds with evangelical fervour
• Darden describes Crouch’s early music as “jazz, pop... but wait, it is gospel—they’re singing about Jesus”
• Crouch and his sister Sandra composed “Jesus Is the Answer,” considered the first modern praise and worship song
• The book includes more than two hundred interviews from gospel musicians, friends, and collaborators
• Crouch read the room and followed the Spirit—every performance was improvisational, responsive, alive
• “Through It All” composed after the heartbreak of a failed relationship; the grief birthed one of his most lasting songs
• Gospel music as lament and praise: “We hear the pain, we hear the resolve, we hear the lament turning to praise”
• Crouch’s “Take Me Back” begins with Billy Preston on B3 organ—“He hasn’t forgotten the church,” says Newby
• Earth, Wind & Fire, Motown, and classical influences shaped Crouch’s orchestration and arrangements
• Darden: “He wanted the music to sound as good as the words. It was obsessive—but it was for God.”
• Andraé’s collaboration with producer/drummer Bill Maxwell led to a string of gospel albums with unmatched quality
• “We are going to see the King”: the timeless hope of “Soon and Very Soon” rooted in the black spiritual tradition
• Crouch’s music was not only groundbreaking—it was pastoral, prophetic, and profoundly personal
• Evangelistic to his dying breath, Crouch witnessed to hospital staff and janitors alike
• The book's subtitle “Transformative Music and Ministry” is more than academic—it’s biographical theology
• Newby and Darden’s friendship mirrors Crouch and Maxwell’s cross-cultural collaboration
• Soon and Very Soon offers readers a chance to read with phone in hand—listening and learning simultaneously
• “Jesus is the answer” remains a musical and theological call across generations

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

During a moment of historic turbulence and Christian polarization, Trinity Forum president Cherie Harder stepped away from the political and spiritual vortex of Washington, DC, for a month-long pilgrimage on the Camino de Santiago—a.k.a. “the Camino” or “the Way.”

In this episode, she reflects on the spiritual, emotional, and physical rhythms of pilgrimage as both counterpoint and counter-practice to the fracturing pressures of American civic and religious life. Together, she and Mark Labberton consider how such a posture of pilgrimage—marked by humility, presence, and receptivity—can help reshape how we understand Christian witness in a fraught and antagonistic time.

Harder explores how her Camino sabbatical offered her a deeply embodied spiritual liturgy—one that grounded her leadership and personal formation after years of intense service in government and faith-based institutions. She also reflects on the internal and external catalysts that led her to walk three hundred miles across Portugal and Spain, including burnout, anxiety, and the desire to “walk things off.” What emerged was not a single epiphany but a profound reorientation: a reordering of attention, a rediscovery of joy, and a new kind of sociological imagination—one that sees neighbourliness through the eyes of a pilgrim, not a partisan.

Episode Highlights

1. “Being a pilgrim, one is a stranger in a strange land, one has no pretensions to ruling the place. … It’s a different way of being in the world.”
2. “There was a widespread belief in the importance of persuasion … a very different posture than seeking to dominate, humiliate, and pulverize.”
3. “Every day is literally putting one foot in front of the other. And you spend each day outside—whether it’s in sunshine or in rain.”
4. “There’s a pilgrim sociology that is so counter to how we interact in civic space today. … It’s a different way of being in the world.”
5. “You’re tired, and there’s an invitation to stop and to pray.”
6. “I didn’t have an epiphany, but what I had instead was a daily practice that fed my soul.”

Helpful Links and Resources

• The Trinity Forum
• The Way (film) – a film about the Camino starring Martin Sheen
• Off the Road: A Modern-Day Walk Down the Pilgrim’s Route into Spain by Jack Hitt
• Pilgrim’s Progress by John Bunyan (Project Gutenberg)
• Sabbath as Resistance by Walter Brueggemann
• Camino de Santiago Overview – Wikipedia

About Cherie Harder

Cherie Harder is president of the Trinity Forum, a non-profit that curates Christian thought leadership to engage public life, spiritual formation, and the arts. She previously served in multiple leadership roles in the US government, including in the White House under President George W. Bush, and as policy director to Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist. A graduate of Harvard University, she is a writer, speaker, and advocate for grace-filled public discourse and thoughtful Christian engagement in civic life.

Show Notes

• Cherie Harder is president of the Trinity Forum, a non-profit based in Washington, DC, and focused on Christian thought leadership.
• She previously served in the White House and as policy director for the Senate Majority Leader.
• Harder reflects on how leadership now requires “counterforce just to stay in the same place.”
• She critiques the rise of “performative belligerence” in both civic and Christian life.
• “There’s a premium placed on humiliating and deeply personally insulting the other side—and somehow that’s seen as strength.”
• She contrasts past politics, which valued persuasion, with today’s polarization, which valorizes domination.
• “Persuasion takes others seriously. It assumes they’re reasonable and open.”
• The Camino de Santiago and pilgrimage
• Harder walked over three hundred miles, from Lisbon to Santiago, along the Portuguese Camino.
• She frames pilgrimage as an act of spiritual resistance against anxiety, burnout, and cultural chaos.
• “I need to find a way to walk this off.”
• The daily rhythm of the Camino offered physical and spiritual rest: wake, walk, eat, reflect, rest, repeat.
• “Every day was the opportunity to just move, to see, to attend to what was in front of me.”
• She was struck by the liturgical nature of walking: “There’s no perfect walk, but you have to start.”
• Each step became a form of prayer, an embodied spiritual practice.
• Embodied spiritual formation
• Harder calls the Camino “a liturgy of the body”—a spiritual discipline grounded in physical motion.
• “Being in your body every day changes you—it makes your needs visible, your limits felt, your joy more palpable.”
• She found that physical needs—food, rest, shelter—highlighted spiritual hungers and gratitudes.
• The rhythm reoriented her from leadership stress to lived dependence on grace.
• “I didn’t have an epiphany. But what I had instead was a daily practice that fed my soul.”
• Spiritual renewal and rhythmic practices
• Harder affirms that the Camino gave her a hunger for spiritual rest she hadn’t fully realized.
• “It showed me the deficiency was greater than I thought … I’ve missed this.”
• She explores how practices of solitude, walking, and prayer can carry over into her work.
• Mark Labberton proposes Sabbath-keeping as one way to embody pilgrimage back home.
• “We may not all get to Portugal—but we can still find a Camino in our days.”
• Harder is now exploring how to sustain “a rhythmic alteration of how we hold time.”
• Pilgrim sociology and neighbourliness
• Harder describes a “pilgrim sociology”—a social vision rooted in vulnerability, curiosity, humility, and shared burdens.
• “We’re in a strange land. We’re not here to rule, but to receive.”
• The Camino fostered solidarity through shared hardship and generosity.
• “You literally carry each other’s burdens.”
• She draws a sharp contrast between the posture of a pilgrim and the posture of a combatant.
• “It leads to a much kinder, gentler world—because it’s not a posture of domination.”
• Spiritual lessons from the Camino
• The convergence at Santiago prompted reflection on heaven: “All these people, from different paths, looking up at glory.”
• She was reminded of Jesus’s words, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.”
• “The Camino literally means ‘the Way.’ You’re relying on direction that is true.”
• The historic path invites pilgrims into the long, sacred story of the church.
• “You feel part of something bigger—millions have gone before you.”

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

For Christians, morality is often set by our interpretation of Jesus. In this episode, Reggie Williams reflects on the moral urgency of resistance in the face of rising nationalisms and systemic racial injustice that persists.

Reggie Williams is associate professor of black theology at Saint Louis University, and author of Bonhoeffer’s Black Jesus. Exploring the transformative and fraught legacy of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, he draws from Bonhoeffer’s encounter with black Christian faith in Harlem. He traces both the revolutionary promise and the colonial limits of Bonhoeffer’s thought—ultimately offering a compelling call to face the challenge of colonialism embedded in Christian theological frameworks, and unmask and dismantle the assumptions of white Western dominance within theology.

Episode Highlights

• “Even the most sincere and most brilliant, and even pious Christian, if we’re not paying attention to the way in which we are formed, repeats the problems that he’s trying to address in society.”
• “Our interpretation of Jesus shapes our morality as Christians.”
• “Hitler and Dietrich both understood their crisis as christological—just with radically different ends.”
• “Christ is actually present in the world in space and time—but for Bonhoeffer, that was the West. That’s a problem.”
• “The arbiter of culture owes it to the rest of the world not to be cruel. But what if the whole project needs to be undone?”
• “Access for black people has always meant white loss in the white imagination. That’s the virus in the body politic.”

Helpful Links and Resources

• Bonhoeffer’s Black Jesus by Reggie Williams
• Ethics by Dietrich Bonhoeffer
• The Cost of Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer
• Just Peacemaking by Glen Stassen

About Reggie L. Williams

Reggie L. Williams is associate professor of black theology at Saint Louis University. A scholar of Christian social ethics, he focuses on race, religion, and justice, with a particular interest in Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s theological development during his time in Harlem. Williams is the author of Bonhoeffer’s Black Jesus and a leading voice on the intersections of colonialism, theology, and ethics.

Show Notes

• Bonhoeffer’s Black Jesus reframes theological ethics through the lens of Harlem’s Black Church experience
• Reggie Williams explores how racialized interpretations of Jesus shape Christian morality
• Glen Stassen’s just peacemaking framework helped form Williams’s commitment to justice-oriented ethics
• Bonhoeffer’s exposure to black theology in Harlem was transformative—but its disruption didn’t last
• “The church must say something about those targeted by harmful political structures.”
• Bonhoeffer saw racism as a theological issue after Harlem, but still defaulted to Western Christology
• “Christ is located in the real world—but for Bonhoeffer, that meant colonial Europe and America”
• Williams critiques Bonhoeffer’s failure to see Christ outside the imperial West
• “Behold the man”—Bonhoeffer’s formulation still echoes a European epistemology of the human
• The human as we know it is a European philosophical construct rooted in colonial domination
• Bonhoeffer’s Ethics critiques Nazism but still centres the West as the space of Christ’s incarnation
• “The unified West was his answer to fascism—but it still excluded the harmed and colonized.”
• Even as a resister, Bonhoeffer operated within metaphysical frames of white supremacy
• “A reformed imperial Christianity is still imperial—we need a theological break, not a revision.”
• Bonhoeffer’s Cost of Discipleship reflected troubling views on slavery—he changed over time
• “From 1937 to 1939 he moves from withdrawal to coup attempt—his ethics evolved.”
• Reggie Williams argues the theological academy still operates under Bonhoeffer’s colonial presumptions
• “White Christian nationalism is a sacred project—whiteness floats above history as God’s proxy”
• Racial hierarchy was created to justify economic domination, not the other way around
• “Black access is always imagined as white loss in the American imagination”
• The DEI backlash reflects a long pattern of retrenchment following black progress
• “How we treat bodies is how we treat the planet—domination replaces communion”
• Bonhoeffer’s flaws do not erase his significance—they remind us of the need for grace and growth
• “He’s frozen in time at thirty-nine—we don’t know what he would’ve come to see had he lived.”
• Mark Labberton calls the current moment a five-alarm fire requiring voices like Williams’s
• “We are at the precipice of the future all over again—the old crisis is still with us.”
• The church’s complicity in empire must be confronted to recover the radical gospel of Jesus
• The moral imagination of the church must be unshackled from whiteness, ownership, and dominance

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“More of the church is committed to their immigrant neighbours than the media or politicians would like the public to believe.” (Myal Green, from the episode)

Myal Greene (president and CEO of World Relief) joins host Mark Labberton to discuss the global humanitarian crises, refugee resettlement, and the church’s responsibility to respond with courage and compassion. From Rwanda's post-genocide reconciliation following 1994 to the 2025 dismantling of humanitarian aid and refugee programs in the US, Greene shares how his personal faith journey fuels his leadership amid historic humanitarian upheaval. Rooted in Scripture and the global moral witness of the church, Greene challenges listeners to imagine a more faithful Christian response to suffering—one that refuses to turn away from the world’s most vulnerable. Despite the current political polarization and rising fragility of moral consensus, Greene calls on the church to step into its biblical role: speaking truth to power, welcoming the stranger, standing with the oppressed, and embodying the love of Christ in tangible, courageous ways.

Episode Highlights

1. “Inherently, reconciliation of people who have done the worst things imaginable to you is not a human thing.”
2. “To truly be a follower of Christ, you can't be completely for a politician or completely for a political party.”
3. “What we’ve seen is that more of the church is committed to their immigrant neighbours than the media or politicians would like the public to believe.”
4. “The challenge for pastors is: How do I talk about this issue without losing my job or splitting my congregation?”
5. “If we’re failing to define our neighbour expansively—as Christ did—we're always going to get it wrong.”

Helpful Links and Resources

• World Relief
• Open Doors World Watch List 2025
• 2024 Lifeway Research on Evangelicals & Immigration
• PEPFAR Program – US Department of State
• National Association of Evangelicals
• Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger, by Ron Sider
• Good News About Injustice, by Gary Haugen
• Walking with the Poor, by Bryant Myers

About Myal Greene

Myal Greene has a deep desire to see churches worldwide equipped, empowered, and engaged in meeting the needs of vulnerable families in their communities. In 2021, he became president and CEO after serving for fourteen years with the organization. While living in Rwanda for eight years, he developed World Relief’s innovative church-based programming model that is currently used in nine countries. He also spent six years in leadership roles within the international programs division. He has previous experience working with the US government. He holds a BS in finance from Lehigh University and an MA from Fuller Theological Seminary in global leadership. He and his wife Sharon have three children.

Show Notes

• Myal Greene’s call to faith-rooted leadership in alleviating poverty
• Greene’s path from Capitol Hill to World Relief, shaped by his conversion in his twenties and a deepening conviction about God’s heart for the poor
• “God was working in me and instilling a deep understanding of his heart for the poor.”
• Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger, by Ron Sider
• Good News About Injustice, by Gary Haugen
• Walking with the Poor, by Bryant Myers
• Psalm 31:7–8: “I’ll be glad and rejoice for you have seen my troubles and you’ve seen the affliction of my soul, but you’ve not turned me over to the enemy. You’ve set me in a safe place.”
• “ Not only will God transform your life, but what it means to actually have experienced that and to feel that and to make that a very real personal experience.”
• 2007 in Rwanda
• Rwanda’s one-hundred-day memorial period for the 1994 genocide
• “The effects of the genocide were always there. You wouldn’t be able to see it, but it was always there.”
• Gacaca courts (system of transitional justice to handle the numerous legal cases following the 1994 genocide).
• “People would come and talk about what happened. … The attempts at apology, the attempts at reconciliation were powerful.”
• ”There are so many stories from Rwanda of true reconciliation where people have forgiven the people who’ve killed their family members or have forgiven people who’ve done terrible things to them.”
• ”How did the Gachacha courts see an interweaving or not of Christian faith in the process of the acts of forgiveness?”
• The church’s role: “The hard part and the amazing part of Rwanda is that reconciliation is deeply connected to individual cases.”
• “Inherently, reconciliation of people who have done the worst things imaginable to you is not a human thing.”
• World Relief's Legacy & Mission
• Founded in 1944 at Park Street Church, Boston, in response to World War II European displacement.
• “Feeding 180,000 people a day in Korea during the Korean War.”
• “We boldly engage the world’s greatest crises in partnership with the church.”
• The global displacement crisis
• Over 122 million forcibly displaced people worldwide—up from under 40 million in 2007 (a fourfold increase)
• “A handful of the most fragile nations of the world are experiencing extreme violence, fragility, rising poverty, the effects of climate change, and people are being forced to flee and put into d desperate situations.”
• “The generosity of the country is not being seen at a time when people in crisis face the greatest need.”
• World Relief is “one of ten refugee resettlement agencies, and we have been a refugee resettlement agency partnering with the US government since 1980 to do the work of welcoming refugees who come to this country. And we’ve partnered with every presidential administration since Jimmy Carter to do this work and have, have done so proudly.”
• Trump’s immigration and refugee resettlement policies
• Refugee resettlement has been halted since January 20, 2025—an estimated one thousand people per month left unwelcomed
• “At a time when people experiencing crisis are facing the greatest need, the generosity of the country is not being seen.”
• 120,000 refugees were welcomed in 2024.
• “We expected around 12,000” in 2025.
• “Should Christian organizations receive federal funding?”
• Cuts to federal humanitarian funding
• USAID interruptions directly affect food, health, and medical services in fragile states like Sudan, Haiti, and DRC.
• On PEPFAR: HIV-AIDS specific program established by George W. Bush
• PEPFAR: “25 million lives have been saved … now it’s among the casualties.”
• “Have these [federal cuts to humanitarian aid] increased philanthropic giving or has philanthropic giving dropped almost as a mirror of the government policy change?”
• Church response and misconceptions
• How should we manage uncertainty?
• When to use one’s voice to speak truth to power?
• “Polling shows evangelicals overwhelmingly support refugee resettlement—even Trump voters.”
• “Over 70 percent of evangelicals believe the US has a moral responsibility to welcome refugees to this country. Sixty-eight percent of of evangelicals voted for Trump agree with that statement as well.”
• Lifeway Research found only 9 percent of evangelicals cite the Bible or their pastor as their main source on immigration. “It would sit uncomfortably to any pastor if that were true about any other major issue.”
• “Pastors find themselves in this difficult place where they're trying to figure out, ‘How do I talk about this issue without losing my job and splitting my congregation?’”
• ”The dissonance between the way the press represents evangelical opinions about immigration”
• “Whether the church’s voice has enough authority to be able to actually affect people’s real time decisions about how they live in the world”
• “To be a truly a follower of Christ, you can’t be completely for a politician or completely for a political party because then you put that ahead of your faith in Christ.”
• “You have to be able to have that freedom to disagree with the leader or the party.”
• “A dog with a bone in his mouth can't bark. … I think that that's where we find ourself as a church right now. We want certain victories through political means, and we're willing to sacrifice our moral authority in order to get those. And I think that that's, that's a very dangerous place to be in as a church.”
• How Lifeway Research approaches their understanding of “evangelical Christian”
• “What is the authority of the church, and how is it exercising or failing to exercise its voice right now?”
• Hope for a compassionate church
• “The real movement happens when the church unites and uses its voice.”
• “One in twelve Christians in America will either be deported or live with someone who is subject to deportation.”

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

What do you do when you don’t know what to do? Angela Williams Gorrell joins Mark Labberton to discuss her latest book, Braving Difficult Decisions. With poignant storytelling and theological depth, Gorrell shares how this book was born out of personal crucibles and a yearning to make sense of liminal, paralyzing spaces we all encounter—individually and communally. Together they explore how discernment is not just about decision-making but also about cultivating a life of wisdom, attentiveness, and spiritual depth.

Rooted in Christian tradition yet capacious across communities and contexts, Gorrell invites listeners to slow down, ask deeper questions, and consider the spiritual, emotional, and communal terrain that shapes every meaningful decision.

Episode Highlights

1. “To not make a decision is to make one as well.”
2. “This journey is about an inward journey that says, how do I look at the state of my own soul?”
3. “Sometimes good decisions don’t feel good.”
4. “What if the best idea isn’t the good idea? And what if the data can’t tell us that?”
5. “Lady Wisdom invites us to dine—to sit at a table with God and others, and not rush the meal.”

Helpful Links and Resources

• Braving Difficult Decisions, by Angela Williams Gorrell
• The Gravity of Joy, by Angela Williams Gorrell
• Life Worth Living course at Yale
• www.angelagorrell.com
• @angelagorrell on Instagram

Show Notes

• The “liminal space” of facing a difficult decision, arriving at a crossroads
• Defining discernment as “a practice, not a single moment of choice”
• The book stems from her decision to leave a tenured-track faculty position, and a painful personal choice about marriage
• Perpetua and Felicity—early Christian martyrs
• Individual discernment and soul work
• Life Worth Living at Yale
• “Can I be suffering and my life still be good?”
• The deeply heartbreaking experience of grappling with the question of divorce
• “I really struggled to find a book that was like, you can be deeply Christian, deeply spiritual, and make this very difficult choice.”
• “You have to put them in your own heart and soul. You have to grapple with these ideas, and then you write them.”
• Should we avoid difficult decisions?
• Discerning, then acting
• “To not make a decision is to make one as well.”
• “I wanted to write a book that spoke to that liminal space where we feel paralyzed.”
• “Good decisions don’t always feel good—they might still break your heart”
• Discusses difference between chronic pain and acute pain in decision-making
• Discernment helps identify not just what is “right,” but what leads toward peace
• Michaela O’Donnell and chronic pain
• Discernment is about “looking at the state of your own soul and becoming a steward of it”
• “This story that God is nurturing in the world—that story doesn’t hinge on like this decision in your life.”
• Self-examination, and feeling alone in the decision
• Community-based decision-making
• “There are all these false binaries.”
• “What baggage do you have from the past? And how do you make sure that you're not seeing the present moment through the past?”
• Being as gracious as possible
• “ What is a way that we can create space to really hear from God?—to hear from each other, and to move forward in a way that we're doing change together and not to each other.”
• “They need to figure out something together that matters deeply.”
• The book offers a pathway for congregations and organizations discerning together
• “How do we do change with people?”
• Encourages communities to take time, name past wounds, and define who makes decisions
• Identifies the importance of setting clear expectations, timelines, and spiritual framing
• “Listening to everyone takes time, but it leads to deeper collective ownership.”
• Invites communities to ask: What values do we want to embody in this moment?
• “Sometimes the most valuable part of the process is the slowness.”
• Wisdom, complexity, and culture
• Decision-making in our polarized society must account for nuance, empathy, and complexity
• “What if the data tells us one thing, but the Spirit tells us something else?”
• Resist “data-driven” decisions as totalizing; discernment includes emotion, history, and spirituality.
• “Sometimes good decisions don't feel good, you know? Sometimes a life worth living is not about pursuing happiness.”
• “Lady Wisdom invites us to come and to dine at her house and to sit at a table together.”
• Names systemic fatigue: “Organizations optimize while their people starve.”
• Decision-making is affected by race, gender, trauma, context—“there is no one-size-fits-all path”
• Discernment as a practice, not a moment
• Braving Difficult Decisions includes exercises and frameworks, such as the “iceberg model”
• “Most big questions are like an iceberg. There’s all this ice beneath the surface that you don't see. That’s really the stuff that people are grappling with.”
• Encourages ongoing wisdom practices: surrender, self-reflection, value-alignment
• The book is not just a guide for one hard moment, but a long-term companion
• Ideal for pastors, therapists, educators, spiritual directors, and leaders

About Angela Williams Gorrell

Rev. Dr. Angela Williams Gorrell is an author, speaker, and consultant. Gorrell speaks and writes about finding the life worth living, joy, meaning, and purpose, and the intersection of spiritual and mental health. She is the author of Always On, The Gravity of Joy, and Braving Difficult Decisions: What to Do When You Don’t Know What to Do. Angela’s research has been highlighted in media sources such as the New York Times, the Washington Post, and NPR. Gorrell has taught at several schools including Yale University and Baylor University. She has provided thought leadership and consulting for numerous organizations including the US Army and the NBA. You can find her at her website www.angelagorrell.com or on instagram @angelagorrell.

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Mental, emotional, and spiritual healing requires more than clinical technique—it demands sacrificial empathy, institutional trust, and a profound affirmation of the image of God in every human being. In this episode, clinical psychologist and Pine Rest CEO Mark Eastburg joins Mark Labberton to discuss the rising need for mental health care—especially for children, adolescents, and those recovering from severe trauma.

Eastburg offers insights about the post-pandemic mental health landscape; psychological and emotional resilience; trauma-informed therapy; deep listening; and the theological, moral, and social commitments that drive Eastburg’s approach to mental and spiritual health. They also discuss the systemic injustice underlying many mental health disparities, inviting us to see mental health care as a vital form of justice work rooted in compassion, dignity, and Christian witness.

Episode Highlights

1. “We’re in the healing moments business. That’s what we do … and I think those healing moments are the building blocks of the kingdom of God—just like atoms are the building blocks of the material world.”
2. “We’re in the healing moments business. … Those healing moments are the building blocks of the kingdom of God.”
3. “Mental health work is justice work … especially when we’re helping people who’ve been victims of injustice get back into community.”
4. “If you just react to people’s symptoms, you’ll get more symptoms. But if you can see the beautiful human being underneath, you’ll see more of that.”
5. “A Christian approach to therapy starts with the belief that every person is made in the image of God—and they are someone’s favourite brother or sister.”
6. “Jesus’s care for the outsider, for the downtrodden, the excluded—that has to define what we mean when we say we express the healing ministry of Christ.”

About Mark Eastburg

Mark Eastburg, PhD, is president and chief executive officer of Pine Rest Christian Mental Health Services, one of the five largest free-standing behavioural health organizations in the United States. With a doctorate in clinical psychology from Fuller Theological Seminary, Eastburg has served in both clinical and leadership roles at Pine Rest for over three decades. He is a passionate advocate for trauma-informed care, access to mental health services, and a faith-integrated approach to healing grounded in human dignity and Christian compassion.

Helpful Links and Resources

• Pine Rest Christian Mental Health Services
• American Rescue Plan

Show Notes

• Mental Health Landscape post-Covid
• Surge in mental health needs for children and adolescents, especially after pandemic lockdowns
• Dramatic increase in psychiatric crises among youth: anxiety, self-harm, aggression
• Tele-therapy rose during Covid, but adolescents strongly prefer in-person care
• “The post-Covid world—everything seems to have become more intense.”
• The symptoms of the adolescent mental health crisis
• Rise in social media use and marijuana legalization amplifying symptoms
• Anxiety, substance abuse
• “We are really shaped and developed by practices.”
• The experience of children in foster care
• Trauma-informed care essential for children with abuse and neglect histories
• Empathy requires the therapist to engage in “sacrificial vulnerability”
• Human mutual vulnerability—”The therapist, to express such empathy, has to themselves be prepared to manifest their own vulnerability to the person who has their own underlying vulnerabilities.”
• Sage advice for therapists: “If you just react to people symptoms, you’re going to get more symptoms. But if you could look past the symptoms and see what he liked to call ‘the beautiful human being underneath everybody,’ anyone that you interact with, you'll see more of that.”
• Sacrificial empathy
• Working toward healing moments—the building blocks for the kingdom of God
• Christian psychotherapy: “the ability to look at people as made in God’s image.”
• Mental illness is another form of marginalization and exclusion
• “People are more than a set of symptoms to be treated.”
• Managing a crisis versus seeing a person
• How Pine Rest approaches mental health care
• Pine Rest’s new $100 million pediatric behavioural health center in Michigan
• “Instead of waiting months for care, kids can just walk in and we’ll sort it out.”
• New specialty clinics for autism, depression, eating disorders, and anxiety
• The universality of how mental health touches our lives
• Who sustains mental health care financially?
• What stokes a readiness for empathy?
• Deeper friendships and safe relationships of belonging as the foundation for mental health
• Stories of youth overcoming institutionalization and abuse through care
• “When a therapist sees the image of God, not just the behaviour, healing begins.”
• Cyprian of Carthage: “Let us be philosophers not in words, but in deeds.”
• “We often misperceive one another and then we misname one another and then we act in relationship to that person with the wrong name and the wrong perception.”
• Empathy, trauma, and Christian therapy
• “Our actions, our words can re-traumatize if we’re not approaching with care.”
• Connection between sacred empathy and human flourishing
• “You can’t manage people like machines—you have to wish for their flourishing.”
• The church, community, and mental health
• The role of church and community institutions in fostering resilience
• “You can’t train enough therapists to solve the crisis—we have to go upstream.”
• Stories of church communities embracing those with mental illness
• “Belonging precedes healing. If someone feels cared for, they’re more likely to show empathy.”
• Global suffering, Western understanding of “avoiding suffering,” and the search for meaning
• Contrast between global Christians and Western assumptions about suffering
• “While I think our work here at Pine Rest Mental Health—we're here to relieve suffering—there is suffering that is full of meaning and full of lessons to teach.”
• Christian healing values clashing with other predominant Western medical approaches
• “Suffering doesn’t equal God’s abandonment—it’s often where God meets us.”
• Concerns about over-medicalizing suffering and ignoring its spiritual richness
• Lessons from early Christian health-care pioneers—“the reckless ones” who ran toward the sick
• “There is suffering full of meaning and lessons that Western models tend to miss.”
• Justice, dignity, and the Christian vocation to empathic care
• “Mental health care is justice work—especially for those traumatized or left out.”
• “People suffering, struggling with mental illness are often the victims of injustices.”
• The practice of psychotherapy and mental health care as pursuing social justice
• Connections between structural injustice and mental illness
• Biblical vision of justice includes care for those seen as defective or excluded

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

What is the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)? And what does it have to do with conservative political power in the United States and abroad?

Leah Payne and Caleb Maskell join Mark Labberton for a deep dive into the emergence and impact of the New Apostolic Reformation—a loosely affiliated global network blending Pentecostal Christian spirituality, charismatic authority, and political ambition. With their combined pastoral experience and scholarly expertise, Payne and Maskell chart the historical, theological, and sociopolitical roots of this Pentecostal movement—from Azusa Street and Latter Rain revivals to modern dominion theology and global evangelicalism. They distinguish the New Apostolic Reformation from the broader Pentecostal and charismatic traditions, and explore the popular appeal, theological complexity, and political volatility of the New Apostolic Reformation.

Episode Highlights

• “Isn't this just conservative political activism with tongues and prophecy and dominion?”
• “At no point in time in the history of these United States … have Protestants not been interested in having a great deal of influence over public life.”
• “You can be super nationalistic in Guatemala, in Brazil, in India, and in the United States. … It is a portable form of nationalism.”
• “They are not moved by appeals to American democracy or American exceptionalism because they have in their mind the end times and the nation of Israel.”
• “Charismatics and Pentecostals, unlike other forms of American Protestantism … do not have a theological value for democracy.”

Main Themes

• Pentecostalism’s history and global influence
• Charismatic Christianity versus Pentecostalism
• Defining and explaining the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)
• C. Peter Wagner, Lance Hall, and Seven Mountain Mandate
• Dominion theology, Christian nationalism, and the religious Right
• Pentecostals and Trump politics
• Zionism in charismatic theology
• Vineyard movement, worship music, and intimacy with God

Linked Media References

• About Vineyard USA
• God Gave Rock and Roll to You: A History of Contemporary Christian Music by Leah Payne
• The New Apostolic Churches by C. Peter Wagner
• This Present Darkness by Frank Peretti
• Atlantic Article: “The Army of God Comes Out of the Shadows” by Stephanie McCrummen
• Bonhoeffer's America: A Land Without Reformation, by Joel Looper
• Another Gospel: Christian Nationalism and the Crisis of Evangelical Identity, by Joel Looper

Show Notes

• Leah Payne defines Pentecostalism as “a form of American revivalism”
• William J. Seymour
• Marked by interracial desegregated worship and spiritual “fireworks” like tongues and prophecy
• Mystical experiences of God
• Desegregation and physically touching one another in acts of miraculous healing
• The Azusa Street Revival (1906) identified as a global catalyst for Assemblies of God denomination
• There is no founding theological figure, unlike Luther or Calvin
• Caleb Maskell emphasizes Pentecostalism’s roots in “a founding set of experiences,” not a founding theological figure
• “Limits to what makes a church”
• Lack of ecclesiological clarity leaves Pentecostalism open to both renewal and fragmentation
• Leah highlights Pentecostalism as “a shared experience … a shared series of practices.”
• “Holy Rollers” and being “slain in the Spirit”
• “A different way of knowing”
• “Christians are made through an encounter with Jesus.”
• The global “charismatic movement” and how it has had cross-denominational Influence
• “Charismatic” was a mid-twentieth-century term for Spirit-led practices arising within mainline Protestant and Roman Catholic traditions
• Charismatic means “gifted” or “being given gifts”
• “‘Charismatic’ has typically been a more inclusive word than ‘Pentecostal.’”
• Emphasis on personal spiritual gifts and intimate worship styles
• “They are not respecters of institutions.”
• Figures like Oral Roberts and Amy Semple McPherson were “too big” for denominational constraints
• “Too-bigness” as driven by both an over-inflated ego and spiritual mysticism
• Frederick Buechner: “The place God calls you to is the place where your deep gladness and the world’s deep hunger meet.”
• Spellbound, by Molly Worthen (see Conversing episode 212)
• What are the origins and key ideas of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)?
• New Apostolic Reformation: “a form of institutionalized charismatic identity that builds on grassroots consensus.”
• “NAR” coined by C. Peter Wagner at Fuller Seminary in the 1990s
• Wagner promoted post-denominationalism and “reality-based” church governance centred on individual charismatic gifts
• Emerged from a “larger soup” of charismatic ideas—often practiced before being systematized.
• Closely tied to the “Seven Mountain Mandate”: that Christians should influence key societal sectors—family, religion, education, media, entertainment, business, and government
• The role of dominion theology and political alignment
• “The convergence of egos, the convergence of ethos … is a natural thing to see emerging.”
• “Dominion is really just two or three logical steps from an obsession with cultural relevance.”
• Payne sees dominionism as a Pentecostal-flavoured version of a broader conservative political strategy.
• “Charismatics and Pentecostals are everywhere … so we should expect them on the far right.”
• Many deny the NAR label even as they operate in its mode.
• ”When Bob Dylan’s in your church, suddenly your church is relevant, whether you like it or not.”
• Defining “Dominionism”
• “Dominion is really just two or three logical steps from an obsession with cultural relevance. Cultural relevance says church should fit—not prophetically, but should fit all but seamlessly—into modes of culture that people are already in.”
• What are the “Seven Mountains of Culture”?  Family, religion, education, media, entertainment, business, and government—”the world would go better if Christians were in charge of each of those arenas.”
• “At no point in time in the history of these United States and the history of European settlers in the new world have Protestants not been interested in having a great deal of influence over public life.”
• Trump, Zionism, and global Pentecostal nationalism
• Christian nationalism versus religious Right
• “They are not moved by appeals to American democracy. … They think the nation of Israel is the nation of all nations.”
• “Isn’t this just conservative political activism with tongues and prophecy and dominion?”
• Anti-institutional and anti-structural
• How Trump seeks power and ego affirmation
• Christian theocratic rule?
• ”It may simply be a part of what it is to be a Christian is to say, at some level, within the spheres that I’m given authority in, I ought to have the right kind of influence, whatever it is.”
• “ I think what’s scary about the moment that we’re in right now is in fact the chaos.”
• A book about Donald Trump—God's Chaos Candidate, by Lance Wall
• ”The beliefs in divine prophecy are so widespread that they transcend partisanship.”
• Black Pentecostalism: immune to the charms of Trump and populist conservatives
• Trump’s Zionist overtures strategically captured charismatic loyalty
• The rise of global Pentecostal nationalism in countries like India, Brazil, and Guatemala parallels US patterns.
• “They don’t actually care long-term about American democracy.”
• “They are not moved by appeals to American democracy or American exceptionalism because they have in their mind the end times and the nation of Israel.”
• Prosperity gospel
• Dominionism and the Roman Catholic “doctrine of discovery”
• The gospel of Christ as “sorting power”
• “It is a portable form of nationalism.”
• Concerns about power, order, and eschatology
• Mark Labberton reflects on Fuller Seminary’s controversial role in NAR’s intellectual development.
• Payne critiques the equation of widespread Pentecostal practices with far-right dominionism.
• “What’s scary … is the chaos. And a number of people associated with NAR have celebrated that.”
• NAR theology often prioritizes divine chaos over institutional order.
• Warnings against super-biblical apostolic authority and spiritual authoritarianism.
• Pentecostalism beyond politics
• “There’s a vivid essentialism—make everything great and all the nations will gather.”
• Vineyard worship as a counterweight to dominionism—emphasizing intimacy and mystical union with Christ.
• “That emphasis on Jesus as a friend … is a really beautiful image of God.”
• Vineyard music helped export a gentle, intimate charismatic spirituality.

About Leah Payne

Leah Payne is associate professor of American religious history at Portland Seminary and a 2023–2024 public fellow at the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI). She holds a PhD from Vanderbilt University, and her research explores the intersection of religion, politics, and popular culture. Payne is author of God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music (Oxford University Press, 2024), and co-host of Rock That Doesn’t Roll, a Public Radio Exchange (PRX) podcast about Christian rock and its listeners, and Weird Religion, a religion and pop culture podcast. Her writing and research has appeared in The Washington Post, NBC News, Religion News Service, and Christianity Today.

About Caleb Maskell

Caleb Maskell is the associate national director of theology and education for Vineyard USA. Born in London, he immigrated with his family to New Jersey in 1986, at the age of nine.

Caleb has been involved in leadership in the Vineyard movement for twenty-five years. After spending a gap year at the Toronto Airport Vineyard School of Ministry in 1995, he went to the University of Chicago to study theology, philosophy, and literature in the interdisciplinary undergraduate Fundamentals program. While there, he joined the core planting team of the Hyde Park Vineyard Church, where he served as a worship leader, a small group leader, a setter-up of chairs, and whatever else Rand Tucker asked him to do.

After college, full of questions that had emerged from the beautiful collision of serious academic study and the practical realities of church planting, Caleb enrolled in the MDiv program at Yale Divinity School. For four years, he immersed himself in the study of theology, church history, and Scripture, while also leading worship and working with middle school and high school youth groups. After graduating in 2004, he worked for three years as the associate director of the Jonathan Edwards Center at Yale University.

In 2007, along with his wife Kathy and their friends Matt and Hannah Croasmun, Caleb planted Elm City Vineyard Church in New Haven, Connecticut. That year, he also began a PhD program at Princeton University, focusing on the history of American religion, with an additional emphasis in African American studies. After moving to Manhattan for four years while Kathy went to seminary, the Maskells ended up in suburban Philadelphia, where Caleb completed his PhD while teaching regularly at Princeton Theological Seminary, and serving as the worship pastor at Blue Route Vineyard Church.

Since 2010, Caleb has led the Society of Vineyard Scholars, which exists to foster and sustain a community of theological discourse in and for the Vineyard movement. Caleb is passionate about developing leaders and institutions that will help to produce a healthy, courageous, and hospitable future for the church in the twenty-first century. Caleb and Kathy now live with their two kids, Josiah and Emmanuelle, in the heart of Denver, where Kathy pastors East Denver Vineyard Church.

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.