“I think my hope is that by this time next year, we would have survived this. … The hope is to survive. … It’s really hard to think beyond that.”

“We need to repent from apathy. We need to fight this normalization of a genocide.”

—Rev. Dr. Munther Issac, from the episode

In the long history of conflict in the Middle East, both Jews and Palestinians have felt and continue to feel the existential threat of genocide. There remains so much to be spoken and heard about the experience of each side of this conflict.

Today we’re exploring a Palestinian perspective.

Ministering in present-day Bethlehem, pastor, theologian, author, and advocate Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac joins Mark Labberton to reflect on the state of the conflict between Israel and Palestine, now a year following Isaac’s bracing and sobering Christmas sermon, which was graphically represented in a sculptural manger scene of “Christ in the Rubble”—a crèche depicting the newborn Jesus amid the debris of Palestinian concrete, wood, and rebar.

Together they discuss the experience, emotions, and response of Palestinians after fourteen months of war; the Christian responsibility to speak against injustice of all kinds as an act of faith; the contours of loving God, loving neighbours, and loving enemies in the Sermon on the Mount; what theology can bring comfort in the midst of suffering; just war theory versus the justice of God; the hope for survival; and the Advent hope that emerges from darkness.

A Message from Mark Labberton

Since October 7 of 2023, the world has been gripped by the affairs that have been unfolding in the Middle East between Israel and Palestine. And the world is eager, anxious, fearful, angry, and divided over these affairs. All of this is extremely complicated. And yet, as a friend said to me once about apartheid (I’m paraphrasing): It’s not just that it’s complicated (which it is), it’s actually also very simple: that we refuse to live as Christian people.

By that, he was not trying to form any sort of reductionism. He was simply trying to say, Are we willing to live our faith? Are we willing to live out the identity of the people of God in the context of places of great division and violence and evil? The Middle East is fraught historically with these debates, and certainly since the of the nation-state of Israel in 1947, there has been this ongoing anguish and understandable existential crisis that Jews have experienced both inside Israel and around the world because of the ongoing anti-Semitic hatred that seems to exist in so many places and over such a long, long period of time.

Today we have the privilege of hearing from one of the most outstanding Christian voices, a Palestinian Christian pastor, Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac, who is the pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem. He is also academic dean of the Bethlehem Bible College and a director of the highly acclaimed and influential conference called Christ at the Checkpoint.

Munther in this last year has been the voice of Christian pleading. Pleading for an end to the war, pleading for the end to violence, pleading for the end to all of the militarism that has decimated parts of Israel, but also, and even more profoundly, the decimation that has leveled approximately 70 percent of all Palestinian homes in Gaza.

This kind of devastation, the loss of forty-five thousand lives and more in Palestine, has riveted the world’s attention. And Munther has been a person who has consistently spoken out in places all around the United States and in various parts of the world, trying to call for an end to the war and for a practice of Christian identity that would seek to love our neighbours, as Jesus taught us in the Sermon on the Mount, including sometimes also loving our enemies.

The reason for the interview with Munther today is because of the one-year anniversary of Something that occurred in their church in Bethlehem, a crèche with a small baby lying in the Palestinian rubble. Seeing and understanding and looking at Christmas through the lens of that great collision between the bringer of peace, Jesus Christ, and the reality of war.

In the meantime, we have a great chance to welcome a brother in Christ ministering with many suffering people in the Middle East, Jew and Gentile, and certainly Palestinian Christians.

About Munther Isaac

Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac is a Palestinian Christian pastor and theologian. He now pastors the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem and the Lutheran Church in Beit Sahour. He is also the academic dean of Bethlehem Bible College, and is the director of the highly acclaimed and influential Christ at the Checkpoint conferences. Munther is passionate about issues related to Palestinian theology.

He speaks locally and internationally and has published numerous articles on issues related to the theology of the land, Palestinian Christians and Palestinian theology, holistic mission, and reconciliation.

His latest book, Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza (get your copy via Amazon or Eerdmans), will appear in March 2025.

He is also the author of The Other Side of the Wall, From Land to Lands, from Eden to the Renewed Earth, An Introduction to Palestinian Theology (in Arabic), a commentary on the book of Daniel (in Arabic), and more recently he has published a book on women’s ordination in the church, also in Arabic. He is involved in many reconciliation and interfaith forums. He is also a Kairos Palestine board member.

Munther originally studied civil engineering in Birzeit University in Palestine. He then obtained a master in biblical studies from Westminster Theological Seminary and then a PhD from the Oxford Centre for Mission Studies.

Munther is married to Rudaina, an architect, and together they have two boys: Karam and Zaid.

Follow him on X @muntherisaac.

Show Notes

• The complexity of conflict in Palestine, Israel, and the Middle East
• “It’s very simple: We refuse to live as Christian people.”
• Get your copy of Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza via Amazon or Eerdmans
• “Christ in the Rubble”—the one-year anniversary
• Munther Isaac’s Christmas sermon, “Christ Under the Rubble” Video
• A Letter from all churches in Bethlehem: “No war”
• “ I can't believe how used we got to the idea of children being killed.”
• “We need to repent from apathy. We need to fight this normalization of a genocide that’s taking place in front of the whole world to see.”
• Fourteen months of non-stop bombing
• “We’re still feeling the anger.”
• ”We’re still feeling the pain. We’re still feeling the anger. And in a strange way, even more fearful of what is to come, given that it seems that to the world, Palestinians are less human.”
• “We couldn’t go to church as normal.”
• “ It’s our calling to continue as people of faith. To call for a change, and to call for things to be different in our world, even to call for accountability. And of course, I feel that my message should be first to the church, because I’m a Christian minister.  I don’t like to lecture other religions about how they should respond. And I feel that the church could have done more.”
• Freedom to speak out: “You can’t say these things in public.”
• Anti-Semitism and hatred toward Jews
• “ This kind of hatred and prejudice toward the Jews, which led to the horrors of the Holocaust, to me, it stems from the idea of ‘we’re superior, we’re better, we’re entitled,’ and blaming someone else. It comes from a position of righteousness and lack of humility. And certainly Jews have always been the victim of such hatred and blame.”
• “ At the same time, we as Palestinians cannot but wonder why is it us that we’re paying the price for what happened on someone else’s land? We’re paying the price.”
• Loving God, loving neighbours, and loving enemies
• Jesus’s politically charged environment
• Violence, just wWar theory, and “the justice of God”
• Using children as human shields for militants
• “ We cannot again bypass what Jesus was challenging us to do, even if it's not easy at all. It was Jesus who confirmed that loving God and loving neighbour summarizes everything. It wasn’t like I came up with this novel thing, but I think we somehow found other ways to define what it means to be a Christian.”
• “What theology would bring comfort?”
• Matthew 25, judgment, and ministering to Jesus through “the least of these”
• “ ‘Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake.’ So he’s clearly talking about victims of unjust structures, those who are thirsty for justice, those who are hungry.”
• Hopes for peace
• “I’m going to be very real, Mark. I think my hope is that by this time next year, we would have survived this.”
• “They estimate that 70 percent of the homes of two million people are destroyed.”
• Violence and destruction connected to a biblical argument about the legitimacy of Palestinian genocide
• The vulnerability of Israel and the vulnerability of Palestine
• “ And it’s important to say these things. Because if we don’t say them, then we … leave the task of imagination to those who are radical—to the extremists and exclusivists.”
• Munther Isaac’s thoughts on the Zionist movement
• Advent reflections on the darkness at the centre, from which hope and life might emerge

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“We learn the most from those who came before us, not by gazing up at them uncritically or down on them condescendingly, but by looking them in the eye. And taking their true measure as human beings, not as gods.” (Daniel Gidick, quoting historian John Meacham)

“When does the revolution end? … It doesn’t.” (Daniel Gidick on Thomas Jefferson)

“This great Nation will endure as it has endured, will revive and will prosper.” (Daniel Gidick, quoting Franklin D. Roosevelt)

Teaching high school history in our current social and political moment represents a formative transmission of the past to the present. Not to mention that a high school level US history course is often one of the final steps toward citizenship and public participation for young adults entering American society.

In this episode, Mark welcomes high school history teacher Daniel Gidick for a discussion of how the teaching of history and the education of young people influence human society.

Together they discuss the connection between history and contemporary society; the stories of conflict and human interest; the joy and challenge of secondary education; the politicalization of high school history; how students adopt a connection to the past; the importance of fact-based history teaching; how history affects American democratic citizenship; and the personal connection Daniel has with the study of United States history.

About Daniel Giddick

Daniel Gidick teaches US history and government at Albemarle High School in Charlottesville, Virginia.

Show Notes

• US history and the constant turmoil of the social landscape
• History as “stories of human conflict and human interest”
• Inspirational historical figures
• The depth and impact of high school teachers on young people
• “Battlefield breakfast”
• “The last teacher they’ll have before they take on the greatest title that you can have (other than parent), which is citizen.”
• “A parodied speech of Eisenhower’s D-Day speech” to motivate test takers
• Historical documents
• The politicization of high school history
• Jon Meacham: “We learn the most from those who came before us, not by gazing up at them uncritically or down on them condescendingly, but by looking them in the eye. And taking their true measure as human beings, not as gods.”
• American Civil War
• State versus national power
• “When in doubt, the answer of the division of history is: slavery.”
• The New Deal: “The pivot point of the twentieth century.”
• Immigration
• How do students feel about America?
• “Lincoln has to be dead by Christmas.”
• “When does the revolution end? … It doesn’t.”
• A connection to the past, finding relevance
• What is your theory of history?
• Fact-based historical teaching
• How history affects American democratic citizenship
• An inflection point in American history
• “The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.” (FDR)
• “This great Nation will endure as it has endured, will revive and will prosper.” (FDR)
• “One of the points of reflecting on the past is to prepare us for action in the present.” (Jon Meacham)

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“In October 1975, I was shot six times. And while I was on the hospital gurney, doctor told me I was going to die. I heard a very clear voice that spoke to me and said, you're not going to die. You're going to be a chaplain at San Quentin prison.” (Chaplain Earl Smith)

Chaplain Earl Smith believes that ministry to the incarcerated is about so much more than rehabilitation. It’s about regeneration. Using the power of his own story of transformation from gang member to pastor, Chaplain Smith has maintained a faithful presence and witness for many decades of pastoral service to the incarcerated at San Quentin Rehabilitation Center, and now to professional athletes (including the Golden State Warriors, San Francisco 49ers, and the San Francisco Giants).

Today on the show Mark Labberton and Chaplain Earl Smith discuss the moral and spiritual factors of prison chaplaincy and ministry for those on death row; the meaning of freedom and education; how he ministered to the leader of the Aryan Brotherhood; the difference that positive mentoring and coaching makes in young people’s lives; and the transformative power of the gospel to go beyond rehabilitation to regeneration.

About Earl Smith

Born and reared in Stockton, California, the cycle of events in Earl’s life came to a head in 1975 when he was shot 6 times while living the life of a minor gangster. Although expected to die, Earl’s father’s faith, prayers, and love seemed to bring him through. The words of his father have motivated him, since that event, “you are a rebel, but you are God’s rebel, and God is going to use you to His glory.”

In 1983, at the age of 27, Earl became the youngest person ever hired as a Protestant Chaplain by the California Department of Corrections.

He is author of Death Row Chaplain: Unbelievable True Stories from America's Most Notorious Prison.

Chaplain Smith currently serves as the Chief Executive Officer for Franklin Home, a Transition Living/Reentry Home for men and is the Team Pastor for the San Francisco 49ers’ and the Golden State Warriors. From 1998 to 2006 Chaplain Smith was the Chapel Leader for the San Francisco Giants. Chaplain Smith has ministered to teams playing in NFL Super Bowls, MLB World Series and NBA Championships. In 2000, Chaplain Smith was recognized as the National Correctional Chaplain of the Year.

Chaplain Smith has appeared on numerous broadcasts, including HBO, CNN, The 700 Club, Trinity Broadcasting Network and The History Channel. Earl has been featured in Christianity Today, Ebony, Guidepost, Ministry Today, Newsweek, People’s Weekly, The African Americans and Time.

Show Notes

• Get your copy of Death Row Chaplain: Unbelievable True Stories from America's Most Notorious Prison
• How Mark and Chaplain Smith met
• The value of education
• “I had to stop my education because of the execution schedule at San Quentin.”
• How Earl Smith got into prison chaplaincy
• “In October 1975, I was shot six times. And while I was on the hospital gurney, doctor told me I was going to die. I heard a very clear voice that spoke to me and said, you're not going to die. You're going to be a chaplain at San Quentin prison.”
• What San Quentin prison is like
• “We used to call San Quentin the Bastille by the Bay. The thing that really stood out for me was the fact that for 13 of the first 16 months I was there, the prison was locked down. The day I interviewed, two people were killed, so they stopped my interview twice. So I understood where I was. I understood the context of confinement. What I also went in there understanding was. It was not about rehabilitation. It was about regeneration.”
• “I believe that that's part of chaplaincy is not to allow the confines of the wall to dictate who you are.”
• A sense of liberty
• Fear and reality
• Earl Smith’s ministry to the leader of the Aryan Brotherhood
• How faith shaped a capacity to be free from fear for the sake of love
• Mass incarceration and the new Jim Crow
• The drug epidemic and its impact on mass incarceration
• “How can you help us prepare these guys to come home?”
• “Whether you're on condemned role, if you have a life without the possibility of parole, or life sentence, or whatever it is, my job is still to share the same gospel message.”
• “Present your body as a living sacrifice.”
• Pastoral care in the prison system
• Calling prisoners by their first names instead of their numbers
• “When you've done it onto the least of these, you've done it to me, so there's a value in your presence.”
• Chaplaincy to professional athletes
• “The states that have the largest prison systems are also the states that send the most professional athletes in the pro sports.”
• Golden State Warriors and San Francisco 49ers
• The difference that positive mentoring and coaching makes in young people’s lives
• “Every man wants someone to acknowledge there's something positive in what you're doing.”
• “They May Know Your Number, But God Knows Your Name” (Clifton Jansky, country western singer)
• God’s way of paying attention to us; “how vested God is in our pursuit of being fully human” (reference to Marilynne Robinson)
• Performance and identity (reference to Ben Houltberg)
• Jerry Rice, #80 and “who wore the number before you?”
• Fellowship of Christian Athletes and Athletes in Action
• “God is a relational God. … Sports is relational.”
• When did chaplaincy in sports become a thing?
• Pat Ritchie’s chaplaincy
• Understanding the value and difference chaplaincy makes
• Documentary and Film Adaptation: Death Row Chaplain
• “A story not of rehabilitation but regeneration”
• “That's really what the story is about. Some of my yesterday, some of my today. And what I believe to be my tomorrow.”

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“Things had radically changed. … They had not only changed my mindset, but they had saved my life.”

In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton opens up about a period of darkness and despair, when as a younger man he considered ending his life. But when he was invited to share Thanksgiving dinner with a local couple, his eyes were opened to a concrete hope, friendship, and joy—all embodied in the simple feast of a community potluck.

Every year since, Mark calls these friends on Thanksgiving Day, in gratitude for and celebration of the hospitality, generosity, beauty, friendship, and hope he encountered that day.

Here Mark reflects on the emotional and psychological difficulties he was going through, the meaning and beauty of friendship, how every dish of a Thanksgiving dinner is an act of hope and community, and how hospitality and generosity can uplift every member of a community.

If you or anyone you know is struggling with depression or considering suicide, there is help available now. Simply call or text 988 to speak with someone right away, share what you’re going through, and get the support you need.

About Conversing Shorts

“In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.”

About Mark Labberton

Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing.

Show Notes

• A story about Thanksgiving Day many years ago, during Mark Labberton’s master of divinity degree at Fuller Seminary
• “… not just overwhelmed, but really undone”
• “ … the possibility of ending my life …”
• Every Thanksgiving dish as an act of hope and community
• Beauty of friendship
• A magnificent extravaganza
• Sharing not just food but hope
• “Things had radically changed. And that in fact they had, they had not only changed my mindset, but they had saved my life.”
• “For me, Thanksgiving Day holds this deep and pensive awareness that Thanksgiving doesn't always come easy, that often it's a difficult act, that it involves things that are sometimes impossible for certain people to carry. And at the same time, it's possible for other people to carry them in our place, which is what these friends did for me that day.”
• If you’re feeling despair, seek professional help. Call or text 988 for an immediate response with a counsellor.
• Seek community.
• “Whether you're in darkness or in light, whether your heart feels full of gratitude or whether it may not, I just hope that you'll be aware that God is with you, that you are not alone, that there are people that want to support you and help you, and that there are people that know you who would welcome you into a circle of celebration and gratitude today.”

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“We’ve just created a hereditary aristocracy in this society, and it has created a populist backlash.” (David Brooks, from the episode)

There’s a growing chasm that divides the affluent and non-affluent in American society, and it’s perhaps most pronounced in higher education. The elite meritocracy suggests that we should reward individual ability, ambition, and accomplishment. But what is “merit” anyway? What is “ability”? And how do they factor in our idea of “a successful life”?

In this episode Mark Labberton welcomes David Brooks (columnist, New York Times) for a conversation about elite meritocracy in higher education.

Together they discuss the meaning of merit, ability, success, and their roles in a good human life; hereditary aristocracy and the populist backlash; power and overemphasis on intelligence; the importance of curiosity for growing and becoming a better person; the value of cognitive ability over character and other skills; the centrality of desire in human life; moral formation and the gospel according to Ted Lasso; ambition versus aspiration; and the impact of meritocracy on the political life and policy.

About David Brooks

David Brooks is an op-ed columnist for the New York Times. His latest book is How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen. He is also the author of The Second Mountain: The Quest for a Moral Life, Bobos in Paradise: The New Upper Class and How They Got There, The Social Animal: The Hidden Sources of Love, Character, and Achievement, and founder of Weave: The Social Fabric Project.

Show Notes

• “How the Ivy League Broke America” (via The Atlantic)
• “The meritocracy isn’t working. We need something new.”
• Money and the elite meritocracy
• “Every nation has a social ideal. And for the first half of the twentieth century, and the last half of the nineteenth century, our social ideal was the well-bred man.” (e.g., Theodore Roosevelt to Franklin Roosevelt to George H.W. Bush)
• “Rich people rigged the system.”
• “Now, if you come from a family in the top 1 percent, your odds of going to an Ivy League school are seventy-seven times higher than if you come from a poor family. And a lot of schools around the country have more students in the top 1 percent than the bottom 60 percent.”
• “We now have this chasm between the children of the affluent and the children of the non-affluent.”
• Shocking stats: “By eighth grade, children of the affluent are four grade levels higher than children of the non-affluent. People who grew up in college-educated homes live eight years longer than people in high-school-educated homes, they’re five times less likely to die of opioid addiction, they’re twenty-two times less likely to have children out of wedlock, they’re two and a half times less likely to say they have no close friends.”
• “We’ve just created a hereditary aristocracy in this society, and it has created a populist backlash.”
• Too much power
• What is “merit”? How do you define “merit”? Who has “ability”?
• IQ is not a good indicator of merit.
• “Our meritocracy measures people by how well they do in school. The definition of intelligence is academic ability.”
• “What’s the correlation between getting good grades in school and doing well in life? The correlation is basically zero.”
• “We measure people by how they do in one setting, which is the classroom. And then we use that to declare how prepared they are for another setting, which is the workplace.”
• “Augustine said, we're primarily not thinking creatures, we're primarily desiring creatures.”
• Leon Kass (University of Chicago): “What defines a person is the ruling passion of their soul.”
• “We become what we love.”
• Predominant emotion of fear
• Curiosity, the love of learning, and getting better every day
• “You’re plenty smart. You’re just not curious.”
• Tina Turner’s memoir, discovering her voice and self-respect.
• “What matters is being a grower, the ability to keep growing.”
• “Getting old takes guts.” (David Brooks’s eighty-nine-year-old father)
• A sense of purpose
• The drive for the future, to be bold
• Henry Delacroix and the genius of America to drive for boldness, hard work, growth, and energy
• Moral materialism
• Vincent van Gogh said, “I’m in it with all my heart.”
• Paul Cézanne and Émile Zola, L’Oeuvre
• Yo-Yo Ma, cello, elite performance, and passionate humanity: “I’m a people person.”
• “Look at these creatures. They’re amazing!”
• Ordinary people in ordinary circumstances
• “Social intelligence” is not really intelligence—it’s an emotional capacity.
• Individuals and teams
• “What makes a good team? It’s not the IQ of the individuals. It’s the ability to take turns while talking. It's the ability to volley ideas and to feed into a common funnel of thought.”
• Project Based Learning
• Most Likely to Succeed (documentary, High Tech High)
• The Hour Between Dog and Wolf John Coates
• Self-awareness and adeptness reading your own body
• Emotional agility
• “The mind is built for motion. That what we do in life, we don’t solve problems, we navigate complex terrains.”
• “We’re all pilgrims. And we’re all searching for the journey that will transform us. And so it’s, the mind is not this computer designed to solve problems. The mind has helped us navigate through a space. And if we do it well, then we become transformed.”
• Applying meritocracy to the 2024 election
• “If you segregate your society on IQ, You're inherently segregating on elitist grounds.”
• “The rebellion that is Donald Trump.”
• Jesus’s form of selection—“When Jesus was selecting his twelve, he didn’t give them all a bunch of standardized tests. … He saw that each person was made in the image of God.”
• “And to me, what (frankly) the Christian world offers us is a re centring of the human person.”
• Controlling the passions of your heart
• Christian humanism
• Ecce Homo
• Rene Girard and mimetic desire
• Ambition vs. Aspiration
• The gospel of Ted Lasso and David Brooks’s favorite definition of moral formation: “My goal is to make these fellas better versions of themselves on and off the field.”
• *Still Evangelical* (essay by Mark Labberton)
• “Am I yet evangelical?”

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Our increasingly reactionary political environment doesn’t lend itself to nuanced, patient understanding of events like the 2024 re-election of Donald Trump. What historical and philosophical resources can help us gain insight and wisdom? How can we successfully know and encounter each other in such a divided society?

In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes David Brooks (columnist, New York Times) for reflections about the 2024 General Election, the state of American politics, and how we got here.

Together they discuss the multi-generational class divide; sources of alienation and distrust; how loss of faith and meaning influences political life; intellectual virtues of courage, firmness, humility, and flexibility; what it means to be a Republican in exile; the capacity for self-awareness and self-critique; and much more.

About David Brooks

David Brooks is an op-ed columnist for the New York Times. His latest book is How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen (Random House, 2023). He is also the author of The Second Mountain: The Quest for a Moral Life, Bobos in Paradise: The New Upper Class and How They Got There, The Social Animal: The Hidden Sources of Love, Character, and Achievement, and founder of Weave: The Social Fabric Project.

Show Notes

• A spiritual or emotional crisis we’re working out in American politics
• Should we blame inflation and economic factors? (Biden’s Covid-19 overstimulation)
• Class divide is a generational thing
• High-school-educated voters are increasingly alienated from the Democratic Party
• Alienation and distrust is a multi-decade process
• Loss of Faith, Loss of Meaning, and the “Death of God”
• An exiled Republican
• “Confessions of a Republican Exile” (via The Atlantic): ”A longtime conservative, alienated by Trumpism, tries to come to terms with life on the moderate edge of the Democratic Party.”
• “I’m a Whig.” (”Abraham Lincoln was a Whig.”)
• Edmund Burke and epistemological modesty—”don’t revolutionize something you don’t understand.”
• You should operate on society in the way you operate on your father, with care.
• Alexander Hamilton
• Whig tradition is unrepresented in contemporary American politics
• How David Brooks waffles between Democrat and Republican
• Isaiah Berlin: “At the rightward edge of the leftward tendency.”
• “The capacity for self-critique
• Matt Yglesias
• Humble, introspective, and “how did we get so out of touch?”
• Racism and sexism are not what’s driving Trump voters
• “In my opinion, Donald Trump is wrong answer to the right question.”
• Mark Noll and America’s use of the Bible: un-self-aware and un-self-critical
• Why is there more capacity for self-critique on the Democratic
• Jonathan Rauch and “Epistemic Regime”: includes media, universities, scientific research, review process, etc.
• “There’s still a core of people who believe ‘if the evidence says x, you should say y.’”
• “The greatest victory in the history of the world.”
• Intellectual Virtues: Courage, Firmness, Flexibility
• “Reality is constantly going to surprise you.”
• 1980s Republicanism was more intellectually sophisticated
• Conservative book publishing
• *Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Change* by Jonah Goldberg
• How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen by David Brooks
• “The Stacking Stereotype”
• “A redistribution of respect” (away from large swaths of America and to elites)
• “The flow of status and respect in this country has gone to people with elite credentials.”
• “… almost no Trump supporters.”
• “If you tell 51% of the country ‘Your voices don’t matter,’ people are going to get upset.”
• America changing beneath us
• High level of spiritual and moral authority and low level of intellectual confidence
• The moral teaching of the New Testament
• “People are unitary wholes.”
• “I became a Christian around 2013.”
• “Jesus was more a badass revolutionary than an Oxford don.”
• C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien’s Christianity
• “What it’s like to be in the claustrophobic mind of a narcissist.”
• Aggression: a joyless way to see the faith
• What is needed?
• “I was a 50-year-old atheist.”
• Chris Wiman (My Bright Abyss: Meditations of a Modern Believer): materialistic categories couldn’t explain the world
• “If they made me pope of the evangelicals, which is a job that makes me shudder…”
• “Be not afraid.”
• “The world just loves a human being that’s trying to act like Jesus.”
• David Brooks’s teaching at Yale
• The Long Loneliness: The Autobiography of the Legendary Catholic Social Activist by Dorothy Day

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

How should we respond to the anxiety, fear, and catastrophizing of Election Day? Is there an alternative to fight, flight, or freeze? Can people of Christian conviction stand firm, grounded in faith, leaning into the storm?

In this special Election Day episode of Conversing, Mark Labberton welcomes Peter Wehner (columnist, the New York Times, The Atlantic) and David Goatley (president, Fuller Seminary) to make sense of the moral, emotional, and spiritual factors operating in the 2024 US general election.

Together they discuss the emotional response to political media; faithful alternatives to the overabundance of fear, anxiety, and catastrophizing; how the threat of affective polarization divides families and friendships; biblical attitudes toward troubling or frightening political and cultural events; how to respond to vitriol, anger, cynicism, hate, and manipulative language; and how the church can help restore trust and be a faithful witness, standing firm through the political storm.

About Peter Wehner

Peter Wehner, an American essayist, is a contributing opinion writer for the New York Times, a contributing writer for The Atlantic, and senior fellow at the Trinity Forum. He writes on politics and political ideas, on faith and culture, on foreign policy, sports, and friendships.

Wehner served in three presidential administrations, including as deputy director of presidential speechwriting for President George W. Bush. Later, he served as the director of the Office of Strategic Initiatives.

Wehner, a graduate of the University of Washington, is editor or author of six books, including The Death of Politics: How to Heal Our Frayed Republic After Trump, which the New York Times called “a model of conscientious political engagements.” Married and the father of three, he lives in McLean, Virginia.

About David Goatley

David Emmanuel Goatley is president of Fuller Seminary. Prior to his appointment in January 2023, he served as the associate dean for academic and vocational formation, Ruth W. and A. Morris Williams Jr. Research Professor of Theology and Christian Ministry, and director of the Office of Black Church Studies at Duke Divinity School. Ordained in the National Baptist Convention, USA, he served as pastor of the First Baptist Church of Campbellsville, Kentucky, for nine years (1986–1995).

In addition to his articles, essays, and book chapters, Goatley is the author of Were You There? Godforsakenness in Slave Religion and A Divine Assignment: The Missiology of Wendell Clay Somerville, as well as the editor of Black Religion, Black Theology: Collected Essays of J. Deotis Roberts. His current research focuses on flourishing in ministry and thriving congregations, most recently working on projects funded by the Lilly Endowment and the Duke Endowment.

Show Notes

• Anxiety, Uncertainty, and Worst-Case Scenarios
• The regular appeal to “the most important election of our lifetimes”
• Assuming the worst about others
• “We are at a fork in the road for a certain kind of vision of who we want to be.”
• “As an African American, many of us always live in the crosswinds.”
• Living with fragility, vulnerability, and uncertainty
• Hymn: “On Christ the Solid Rock I Stand”
• Anger, Antipathy, and Fear
• Passions and beliefs—and an electoral system built to amplify those
• “They’re more amplified than in the past.”
• Families and friendships that divide over politics.
• Feeling like we “share a continent but not a country”
• Affective polarization—”There’s a sense of the other side being an enemy.”
• Catastrophizing
• Recalibrate, reset, and rethink
• Hoping that calmer heads prevail
• Church splintering and aligning with partisan politics
• “God will use all things—not that God intends all things.”
• The political balance wheel
• “Fear is not a Christian state of mind.”
• “Hope is based on something real.”
• “The long game for believers is to hearken back to the early church and remember that Jesus is Lord, and the emperor is not.”
• Political toxicity that infects the household of faith
• “We have to do all that we can to live with peacefully with each other.”
• Vitriol, hubris
• “It’s important to name things. … If you don’t name them—if you try to hide them—then you can’t begin the process of healing.”
• “Faith is subordinate to other factors that they’re not aware of.”
• The Era of Fear: What informs our fears? What can we do about our fears?
• Fear of the Lord that sets us free
• Firmness as an alternative to fighting or fleeing
• “Valuing the vibrant diversity of God”
• “Expand your reading.”
• Breaking out of conformity and homogeneity
• “Meeting the moment”: Inflection points in a human life or a society’s life—a moment for leaders to rise up, speak, and shape
• Example: Winston Churchill and Great Britain pre–World War II (from pariah to prime minister)
• Example: Jonathan Haidt’s The Anxious Generation and the agenda to make schools phone-free
• These aren’t the conditions for human flourishing
• “We’ve got to be faithful. We may not be successful.”
• Cultivating a political garden to prepare the soil for shared core values of decency, respect, fairness
• “… what we have loved, / Others will love, and we will teach them how” (William Wordsworth, “The Prelude”)
• Loving the right things
• Voting
• “Complicating my view of the world.”
• “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.”
• Before voting: “A prayer to submit myself to the will of God.”
• “Tell me how you came to believe what you believe … over time it can create a feeling of trust”
• “What don’t I see? What about my own blindspots?”
• Stunned by the profundity and sobering word that “God will not be mocked”
• Expressing convictions through voting

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

The history of racism has a parallel history of resistance. Courageous women and men have responded to injustice with lives of faith, hope, and love—bearing witness to the spirit of justice. They have inspiring stories we can learn from today. But who is willing to tell those stories? And who is willing to hear them?

In this episode Mark Labberton welcomes historian Jemar Tisby to discuss his new book, The Spirit of Justice—a summoning of over fifty courageous individuals who resisted racism throughout US history. The book is a beautiful quilt of stories and profiles, stitched together through Tisby’s contemporary cultural analysis.

Jemar Tisby is the New York Times bestselling author of The Color of Compromise and How to Fight Racism. He is a public historian, speaker, and advocate, and is professor of history at Simmons College, a historically black college in Kentucky.

Recent Books by Jemar Tisby

The Spirit of Justice *Available now

I Am the Spirit of Justice *Picture book releasing January 7, 2025

*Stories of the Spirit of Justice Middle-grade children’s book releasing January 7, 2025

About Jemar Tisby

Jemar Tisby (PhD, University of Mississippi) is the author of new book The Spirit of Justice, New York Times bestselling The Color of Compromise, and the award-winning How to Fight Racism. He is a historian who studies race, religion, and social movements in the twentieth century and serves as a professor at Simmons College of Kentucky, a historically black college. Jemar is the founding co-host of the Pass the Mic podcast, and his writing has been featured in the Washington Post, The Atlantic, Time, and the New York Times, among others. He is also a frequent commentator on outlets such as NPR and CNN, speaking nationwide on the topics of racial justice, US history, and Christianity. You can follow his work through his Substack newsletter, Footnotes, and on social media at @JemarTisby.

Show Notes

• The Color of Compromise (available here)*—*the larger narrative of (Christian) America’s racist history
• Myrlie Evers Williams on her husband Medgar Evers’s death
• Myrlie Evers Williams: “I see something today that I hoped I would never see again. That is prejudice, hatred, negativism that comes from the highest points across America. She told us then with the candor that comes with old age, she said, and I found myself asking Medgar in the conversations that I have with him. Is this really what's happening again in this country? And asking for guidance because I don't mind admitting this to the press, I'm a little weary at this point.”
• Fighting for justice
• “Black people are born into a situation in which we are forced to defend, assert, and constantly so, our humanity. And that is in the midst of constant attacks on our humanity, big and small, whether it is the vicarious suffering that we see when there's another cell phone video of a black person being brutalized by law enforcement, whether it is, you know, We all have memories of the first time we were called the N word, uh, whether it is going into the workplace and wondering if you didn't get that raise or you were passed over for that promotion, if it had anything to do with the color of your skin, even subconsciously. And so we are born into a situation in which resistance is a daily reality.”
• Sister Thea Bowman, Black Catholic Mississippian Nun
• “Her holiness leaps off the page.”
• Simmons College, Louisville, KY
• Jim Crow Era: “How do you tell the story of the Jim Crow era without centering the white supremacy, the violence, the segregation—How do you center black people in that era?”
• William J. Simmons, Men of the Mark
• The history of Simmons College as an HBCU
• Ida B. Wells
• Harriet Tubman (Araminta Ross) and the Underground Railroad
• Nursing, training, service, and freeing the slaves
• Combahee River Raid (led by Harriet Tubman)—she received a full military burial
• “We need the spirit of justice because injustice is present.”
• Fight, flight, freeze, or fawn
• “And in all kinds of ways, black people chose to fight their oppression.”
• Romans 5: Suffering produces perseverance. Perseverance produces character. Character produces hope and hope does not put us to shame.
• “Hope is a decision.” (Archbishop Desmond Tutu)
• “They chose hope.”
• William Pannell, Fuller Theological Seminary—My Friend the Enemy (1968)
• Rodney King and “the coming race war”
• William Pannell’s impact on Mark Labberton
• Film: The Gospel According to Bill Pannell
• “When you see what's really motivating people, what's really stirring up fear and hatred, which can lead also to violence. It's still around race.”
• Racial anxiety and politics: “This is no longer a white man’s America.”
• The Holy Spirit
• “I’m getting so Pentecostal in these days.”
• Psalm 11:7: “God is a God of righteousness. God loves justice.”
• “When I think about what exactly the spirit of justice is, I think it's the fingerprint of God on every human being made in God's image that says I'm worthy of dignity, respect, and the freedom to flourish. And when that is taken away from me because of oppression and injustice, I have this spirit within me to resist.”
• “The spirit of justice gives us that resilience, that strength to become determined all over again. This is not a power that we find within ourselves to get back up again every time the backlash pushes us back. It is a power. the supernatural power, the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, that also empowers us for the work of justice.”
• How to make a difference
• The variety of black experiences
• Jemar Tisby’s first picture book and young reader’s edition

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“Sometimes I’m not sure even believers understand the power that exists in their sheer humanity. That there really is something that God has placed on the inside of us that when we come to some form of collected agreement—not uniformity, but just some kind of collective unity around something—that really wonderful, great, powerful things can happen.” (Rev. Dr. Jacqueline A. Thompson)

Growing up in Oakland, California, Jackie Thompson didn’t know that sociologists were referring to her neighbourhood as “The Killing Zone”—a part of the city with the highest concentration of homicides. Now, as senior pastor of Allen Temple Baptist Church, the Rev. Dr. Jacqueline A. Thompson continues to serve the Oakland community throughout its ups and downs, offering a Jesus-centred vision of justice and hope, present to the pain and suffering of the city.

In this episode Thompson joins Mark Labberton for a discussion of her local pastoral ministry in Oakland, California. Together they discuss Jackie’s life and experience as a one of the first women to be appointed senior pastor in a black Baptist church; her college experience at UC Berkeley; what it means to respond to the call of social justice and biblical faith; the blessings and challenges of pastoring a large black church in Oakland; how to centre local ministry on the pain and suffering of a community; the temptation of power; the political season and candidacy of Kamala Harris; and how to “fight for a vision of the kingdom of God where there is enough for everybody.”

About Rev. Dr. Jacqueline A. Thompson

Described as a transformational preacher, dynamic leader and ministry trailblazer, Rev. Dr. Jacqueline A. Thompson is an inspiring example of what God can do with a life committed to the call. She currently serves as the beloved senior pastor of the Allen Temple Baptist Church in her native Oakland, California. Her 2019 election made history nationwide as the first woman called to serve as senior pastor of this historic African American Baptist Church founded in 1919. Before being called in this capacity, Thompson served as the assistant pastor at Allen Temple and as youth minister at Shiloh Baptist Church of Washington, DC, the first woman to serve in both capacities.

Committed to excellence in scholarship, Thompson received her bachelor of arts in political economics from the University of California, Berkeley, and a master of divinity from Howard University School of Divinity in Washington, DC. While at Howard, she received the Nannie Helen Burroughs Award for Academic Excellence and the Henry G. Maynard Award for Excellence in Preaching and Ministry. Believing in the importance of both orthodoxy and orthopraxy, Thompson continued her studies at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, California, where she was awarded the doctor of ministry degree in African American church leadership.

She is a member of the NAACP and Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Incorporated. Her activism and leadership have been recognized by various chapters honouring her with the Community Excellence Award and as Distinguished Woman of the Year. Among other honours, Thompson has been inducted into the distinguished Morehouse College Martin Luther King Jr. Board of Preachers.

Thompson is a gifted preacher, administrator, and published author travelling and ministering extensively nationally and internationally, often in arenas previously unchartered by women. In addition, she has been called on by local and national print and electronic media as an opinion leader to offer perspective and hope amid the pressing issues of the day. She is currently on the teaching staff of the Berkeley School of Theology in the area of public theology and preaching.

Her mission is to see transformation in the lives of others and is humbled by every opportunity to serve.

Show Notes

• Learn more about Allen Temple Baptist Church: https://www.allen-temple.org/
• Growing up in “The Killing Zone” in Oakland, CA
• “There was a really big difference in how we look at something and describe it and how the people who experienced it describe it themselves.”
• “At twelve years old, we started visiting all kinds of churches in Oakland, right? So I've been to every church just about storefront, larger church, every one.”
• The experience of Allen Temple Baptist Church in Oakland
• Matthew 28:18–20
• Dr. J. Alfred Smith—one of the most beloved heralded African American pastors in the United States
• Restlessness
• Youth ministry in Oakland
• Social justice and biblical faith
• The power of a pastor: “I miss your voice in the choir!”
• Choir for young adults
• The ministry of Dr. J. Alfred Smith—”God was absolutely central and primary, and the point of action that held everything together. And then you had this galaxy of every kind of life experience that was being represented, talked about, honoured, celebrated from children to all, all generations and ages, but also women.”
• “Pastoring was never something I wanted to do. … But what happened was life.”
• “She’s a very dignified, prideful black mom. … And she said, ‘I don’t recognize you before.’”
• Trailblazing as the first female assistant pastor of a major black baptist church
• An imaginative tour of Oakland
• Oakland is a tale of two cities—the hills and the flatlands
• Shifting the narrative about Oakland, violence, justice, and power.
• “I believe part of our responsibility, particularly at Allen Temple, but not just Allen Temple, as people of faith, as people who say that we are followers of the way and that we believe in Jesus—that we call power structures to account.”
• “Fight for a vision of the kingdom of God where there is enough for everybody.”
• Walter Brueggemann: “The numbness that can come with royal consciousness”
• Remaining connected to the epicentre of people’s pain
• Joshua crossing the Jordan: twelve stones to build a memorial
• Good Samaritan on the Jericho road
• The history of Oakland’s ups and downs
• Washington, DC, and the power centre of the world
• “There are no permanent friends. There are no permanent enemies. They’re just permanent interests. … What that taught me is that the players around the table will change. As long as the interest in the centre of the table stays the same, it does not matter how the players change.”
• Oakland as microcosm for other urban cities
• “The temptation is always power.”
• “I try and keep the centre of the cross with the vertical and the horizontal meet before the eyes of the people in a way that they can see it, that they can grab hold to it, and they can decide how that, that’s how will they, they centre and position themselves in there for the cause of the kingdom.”
• “What is the burden that you feel like you're primarily carrying?”
• “Sometimes I’m not sure even believers understand the power that exists in their sheer humanity. That there really is something that God has placed on the inside of us that when we come to some form of collected agreement—not uniformity, but just some kind of collective unity around something—that really wonderful, great, powerful things can happen.”
• Comparing Obama’s nomination to Kamala’s nomination
• Focusing on the needs of the people
• Thompson’s preaching as centring the pain on a deeper centre of Jesus Christ

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

When it comes to voting, how should we balance character and policy?

“If I'm voting for a politician,” journalist David French suggests, “I have a test. One is: Do they have the character necessary for the job? And the higher the position they’re seeking, the more character that is necessary. And number two: Do they broadly agree with me on the most important policies?”

In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes journalist David French (opinion columnist for the New York Times; formerly The Atlantic, The Dispatch, and National Review) for a discussion of character, policy, and principles for faithful, virtuous engagement in polarized American politics.

French’s commitment to Christian faith, moral character, and reasoned policy has emerged from his experience as a former commercial lawyer, military lawyer, and former president of the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression. A political conservative, French has throughout his career been an advocate for First Amendment rights, pro-life individuals and organizations, and the ideals of democracy. He describes himself as “an evangelical conservative who believes strongly in a classical liberal, pluralistic vision of American democracy.”

Together, Mark and David discuss his Christian upbringing; his personal partisan commitments; the importance of character in party politics; the importance of nuanced and reasoned policy; why he’s voting for Kamala Harris in order to save conservative politics; two Bible verses for this election season; how to respond to our culture of fear; and how to secure a more courageous, loving, and humble politics.

About David French

David French is an opinion columnist for the New York Times, and previously wrote for The Atlantic, The Dispatch, and National Review. He is a New York Times bestselling author of Divided We Fall: America's Secession Threat and How to Restore Our Nation.

He describes himself as “an evangelical conservative who believes strongly in a classical liberal, pluralistic vision of American democracy.”

He is a graduate of Harvard Law School, the past president of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education, and a former lecturer at Cornell Law School. He has served as a senior counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice and the Alliance Defending Freedom. David is a former major in the United States Army Reserve. In 2007, he deployed to Iraq, serving in Diyala Province as Squadron Judge Advocate for the 2nd Squadron, 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment, where he was awarded the Bronze Star.

Show Notes

• Divided We Fall: America's Secession Threat and How to Restore Our Nation
• “I was a First Amendment litigator with a writing hobby.”
• Background in the Acapella Churches of Christ: a Restoration Movement from the early-19th century
• “It turned into something kind of separatist, sectarian, and ferociously legalistic.”
• “I grew up with a real grounding. grounding and reading the Bible, which actually, ironically enough, was the seed of me leaving the church of Christ.”
• “I was a Cold War conservative and a conservative Christian. And they were related, but not, but they weren't inextricably tied together. So for me, my, you know, ideology was downstream of my faith, but I didn't think that my ideology was the inevitable result of my faith.”
• Pro-Life Activism
• Representing pro-life individuals
• Existential clash: the confrontation between the Soviet Union and the United States
• Why David French is voting for Kamala Harris in order to save conservative politics
• “My party loyalty has always been related to two things. One is the ideology of the party and the other one is the character of the party. And the party leaders and the people that I vote for, I've always had a character test and an ideological test.”
• Bad character and bad policy—”why would I be attached to that? There’s no claim on my loyalty there.”
• The importance of character
• “If the conservative perspective that I have wants to have any purchase in American politics, MAGA has to lose. Donald Trump has to lose.”
• Federalism: a practical understanding that smaller government is better.
• Republican Party increasingly embracing a pro-choice platform
• “If you're going to have a healthy two party system, the distinctions should be around good people of high character approaching policy solutions from different perspectives.”
• “One of these parties has sort of left the norms of American. political engagement.”
• “I voted for Mitt Romney more than Mitt Romney's probably voted for Mitt Romney.”
• “If I'm voting for a politician, I have a test. One is: Do they have the character necessary for the job? And the higher the position they're seeking, the more character that is necessary. And number two: Do they broadly agree with me on the most important policies?”
• “I have very little patience for those people who say I'm somehow not a Christian for voting for a pro-choice candidate. When they're voting for a pro-choice candidate who's been adjudicated a sex abuser, that is difficult for me to discern how that is a more Christian stance.”
• Clear, independent thinker
• Logical reasoning and courageous statements
• A living faith by which we think through ideas
• “There's a fine line between stubbornness and courage.”
• “In these last 10 years, I've really had to ask myself: Who are you really?”
• David French’s parents’ example of faith and virtue
• Learning from World War I and World War II history
• “Some of the worst things that have happened in American history have happened because people didn't want to do hard things.”
• “I think the sanctification process, though, is difficult. It means that you're being exposed to constantly your own sin is being exposed to yourself.”
• Mark asks: “What do you want Christian people, thoughtful, committed, curious, uncertain, tenuous Christian people to, to do between now and the election?”
• 2 Timothy 1:7—“God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, of love, and of sound mind.”
• Micah 6:8—”What does the Lord require of you, O man? What is good? To act justly, to love kindness, and to walk humbly before the Lord your God.”
• Ideological diversity: be curious, seek disagreement
• “If you just show affection for people and curiosity towards their views, anger tends to drain out of a room.”
• “College students are full of anxiety about conflict.”
• “Fear not.”
• The A Team—arming up for battle
• “And they find out that a lot of these folks that they were taught were going to be their enemies are actually just super kind, normal folks.”
• “They're equipping them to fight, not to love their neighbor, fight their neighbor, not love their neighbor.”
• Mark asks: “What handles would you give people in living in a fear dominated moment in American history?”
• “In receiving anger and fear, do not try to build up a bulletproof thick skin. … Because you know what that does? It often walls you off from legitimate criticism.”
• Thick skin, soft heart.
• “An enormous amount of fear is rooted in a sense—a feeling—of non-belonging and loneliness. Isolation and loneliness.”
• “People who are more isolated and alone are drawn to these authoritarian movements.”
• “Ease the loneliness, build the connection. … Lean into relationship and presence.”
• “It was just stunning to me that, against all evidence of scripture, Christians were consigning people to eternal damnation over a vote in a presidential election.”
• Miles Law: “Where we stand is based on where we sit.”
• Kindness, humility, not living a fear-based angry life
• “If you're in a community where the fruit of the spirit dominate, you can withstand a lot of disagreement.”

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.