Conversing with Mark Labberton

Investigative reporter Shoshana Walter has spent a decade uncovering how America's $53 billion rehab industry exploits the people it claims to help. Her debut book, Rehab: An American Scandal, follows four people through a system of unpaid labour, unregulated programs, and treatment that fuels relapse.

"Just because people aren't dying doesn't mean they're not still suffering, doesn't mean their families and communities aren't still suffering."

In this episode with Mark Labberton, Walter reflects on the human cost of America's failed treatment system. Together they discuss court-ordered rehab as unpaid labour, the deadly paradox of thirty-day programs, faith-based facilities exempt from oversight, racial disparities in the opioid crisis, the treatment gap for mothers, and why recovery capital and low-barrier care offer a more promising path.

Episode Highlights

"If indentured labour could be considered a form of addiction treatment in the US today, then how common is that? What does the rest of our treatment landscape look like?"

"Someone who goes to a thirty-day program and finishes it is much more likely to overdose and die in the year following treatment than someone who didn't complete that program at all."

"Without that recovery capital, it's almost as much of an obstacle as the addiction itself."

"Our treatment system is not serving the people the way that it should. And we could be helping people so much more than we actually are."

"That exploitation is not transformative."

About Shoshana Walter

Shoshana Walter is an investigative reporter for The Marshall Project covering criminal justice, health care, and child welfare, and the author of Rehab: An American Scandal (Simon & Schuster, 2025). She was lead reporter on the podcast American Rehab at the Center for Investigative Reporting. A 2018 Pulitzer Prize finalist, she has won the IRE Medal, the Livingston Award, the Knight Award for Public Service, and the Murrow Award. Based in Oakland, California. Learn more and follow at shoshanawalter.com and @shoeshine on X.

Helpful Links and Resources

Rehab: An American Scandal (Simon & Schuster, 2025) simonandschuster.com/books/Rehab/Shoshana-Walter/9781982149826 Shoshana Walter's website shoshanawalter.com The Marshall Project themarshallproject.org/staff/shoshana-walter American Rehab podcast podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/reveal-presents-american-rehab/id1539955572

Show Notes

• America's rehab crisis: a $53 billion industry failing patients
• Court-ordered participants making products for KFC, Popeye's, Walmart—without pay
• Faith-based programs exempt from licensure, barred from providing medical care
• "That exploitation is not transformative."
• Sixty thousand people a year performing uncompensated labor in rehab
• Thirty- to sixty-day insurance limits fueling relapse and overdose
• "Someone who goes to a thirty-day program and finishes it is much more likely to overdose and die in the year following treatment."
• Chris Koon: eighty hours/week of manual labour, compensated with a pack of cigarettes
• April Lee: could only access treatment by getting herself arrested
• Accidental overdose: leading cause of death among pregnant and postpartum women
• Dr. Larry Ley: early Suboxone prescriber arrested by the DEA
• Wendy McIntyre: lost her son to overdose, became a reform crusader
• More than one million US overdose deaths since the epidemic began
• Racial shifts in overdose from white communities to black and brown communities
• Recovery capital: community, housing, job training as foundations for change
• "Without that recovery capital, it's almost as much of an obstacle as the addiction itself."
• Bridge Clinic at Highland Hospital: low-barrier model keeping people in care
• Mobile distribution, street medicine, peer navigators
• "We could be helping people so much more than we actually are."

#RehabAnAmericanScandal #OpioidCrisis #AddictionTreatment #RecoveryCapital #HarmReduction #InvestigativeJournalism #Suboxone #ShoshanaWalter

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

At fifteen, Martin Luther King Jr. didn't want to be a preacher—he wanted to be a lawyer, a sharp dresser, and nothing like his father. Stanford scholar Lerone A. Martin joins Mark Labberton to discuss Young King—a revelatory new account of Martin Luther King Jr.'s childhood, adolescence, and calling to ministry. "He's extraordinary and ordinary and everything in between." In this episode, Martin reflects on how MLK's early formation forged the conviction and courage of the man the world would come to know. Together they discuss King's childhood encounters with racism, the transformative summer in Connecticut where King first preached, his courtship of Coretta Scott, his first sermon at Dexter Avenue, the theology of Personalism, and Martin's own formation in Black Baptist and Pentecostal traditions.

Episode Highlights

"His mother tells him a message that really sticks with him his entire life and is really core to his ministry. And that is that you are somebody and that you're in God's eyes. You are just as good as anybody else."

"I kept my mind at the front of that streetcar, and I said to myself, one day, I'm going to put my body where my mind is."

"She says within the first 20 minutes he starts to become handsome because they start talking about dismantling Jim Crow."

"He's extraordinary and ordinary and everything in between."

"God has chosen to work with us and to invite us to be coworkers with God, to bring about God's will in the world."

About Lerone A. Martin

Lerone A. Martin is the MLK Jr. Centennial Professor in Religious Studies at Stanford and director of the King Research and Education Institute. His books include Young King, The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover, and Preaching on Wax. He holds a BA from Anderson University, MDiv from Princeton Seminary, and PhD from Emory. His commentary has appeared on NBC's Today Show, PBS, CNN, and NPR.

Helpful Links and Resources

Young King by Lerone A. Martin https://www.amazon.com/Young-King-Making-Martin-Luther/dp/0063340941 The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691218939/the-gospel-of-j-edgar-hoover Martin Luther King, Jr. Research and Education Institute https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu Lerone A. Martin on X https://x.com/DirectorMLK The Luminous Darkness by Howard Thurman https://www.amazon.com/Luminous-Darkness-Anatomy-Segregation/dp/0913408468

Show Notes

• Martin's upbringing between Black Baptist and Pentecostal traditions
• Parents debating religion and politics during the Moral Majority era
• Anderson University, Princeton Seminary, Emory PhD
• Martin's mother told him he was "a child of God" and "beautiful"—a refrain shaped by her awareness of sending her darkest-skinned child into a world defined by colorism and racism
• "He's extraordinary and ordinary and everything in between."
• King and his brother dismembering his sister's Barbie dolls
• Incessant curiosity—trying big words on the Auburn Avenue librarian
• Racism at age six: white friends' parents ending the friendship
• "You are somebody and in God's eyes you are just as good as anybody else"
• King's mother explained racism to a six-year-old as something manmade, not what God intends—a distinction that became core to his ministry for the rest of his life
• "One day, I'm going to put my body where my mind is."
• Jitterbug dancer, sharp dresser, speech contest competitor
• King Sr. as fighter and provider—but King Jr. was sensitive, nonconfrontational, and determined to find his own path outside his father's shadow
• Resisting his father's model of ministry—wanting to be a lawyer
• Appearing to acquiesce to Dad, then doing what he wanted
• Connecticut tobacco fields at 15—first time outside the segregated South
• King wrote letters home marveling that he sat anywhere he wanted in restaurants, went to a white church, and didn't have to sit in the balcony at the movies
• "His sister says he left a boy and came back a man."
• Professor George Kelsey's Bible course at Morehouse—King's only A
• Howard Thurman's The Luminous Darkness and the enormous psychological energy required just to maintain a sense of "somebodiness" under Jim Crow's built environment of dehumanization
• "Within the first 20 minutes he starts to become handsome because they start talking about dismantling Jim Crow."
• Coretta wrestled with giving up her music career to become a minister's wife, ultimately deciding that partnership with King was itself an act of service toward justice
• First sermon at Dexter Avenue Baptist Church: "Love Your Enemies"
• Theology of Personalism—humanity as coworkers with God

#YoungKing #MLK #LeroneMartin #KingInstitute #CivilRights #BlackHistory #FaithAndJustice #ConversingPodcast

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

What does it cost to pastor faithfully in a city shaped by both beauty and deep injustice? Corey Widmer has spent twenty years navigating race, politics, and the gospel in Richmond, Virginia.

"We're living in an extraordinary moral and spiritual crisis that we will either look back and say the American church was an accomplice, or the American church was a prophet."

In this episode with Mark Labberton, Widmer reflects on bridging divided communities and the spiritual practices that can sustain pastors as they serve their congregations and communities. Together they discuss pressures facing pastors in a polarized era, the prophet-priest-king calling, Richmond's racial history, pastoral burnout, John Stott's legacy, and the contemplative life.

Episode Highlights

• "We're living in an extraordinary moral and spiritual crisis that we will either look back and say the American church was an accomplice, or the American church was a prophet."
• "No political party could possibly align with the ethic of the radical upside down kingdom of Jesus."
• "Bridges are stretched between two points and bear tremendous weight."
• "At the heart of the universe is not power. At the heart of the universe is communion, is love."
• "You know when you're really not a prophet is when after you say the hard word, you leave the room and say, I hope they still like me."

About Corey Widmer

Corey Widmer is senior pastor of Third Church, a Presbyterian congregation in Richmond, Virginia. Corey has served as a pastor in Richmond for over twenty years, both at Third Church and at East End Fellowship, a multi-racial neighbourhood congregation. Corey has an MDiv from Princeton Theological Seminary and a PhD in theology and missiology from the Free University of Amsterdam. He is married to Sarah, a public health nurse, and they have four daughters.

Helpful Links and Resources

Corey Widmer on Substack: https://coreywidmer.substack.com

Third Church, Richmond: https://www.thirdrva.org

Corey Widmer on X: https://x.com/coreywidmer

For Richmond Immigration Statement (full text): https://www.forrichmond.org/recent-news-blog/immigration

Richmond Faith Leaders on Immigration (Virginia Public Media): VPM News

James Davison Hunter, Democracy and Solidarity (Yale, 2024): https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300284898/democracy-and-solidarity/

David Whyte, Crossing the Unknown Sea: https://davidwhyte.com/store/book/crossing-the-unknown-sea/

Lausanne Covenant: https://lausanne.org/about/the-lausanne-covenant

John Perkins, Let Justice Roll Down: https://ccda.org/product/let-justice-roll-down/

Barna, State of Pastors: https://www.barna.com/trends/pastoral-flourishing/

Show Notes

• Introducing Corey Widmer—lead pastor, Third Church, Richmond
• Describing the moment: fraught, volatile
• "Every pastor in every time has a similar calling—to shepherd the people of God under the supremacy of Jesus's lordship"
• Christian message used in ways antithetical to Jesus
• "Where am I?"—the pastor's constant calibration
• John Stott's bridge-building model
• Richmond: Patrick Henry, slave markets, Confederate capital
• John Perkins' call to relocation and reconciliation
• Thirteen years co-pastoring multiracial church plant
• "Bridges are stretched between two points and bear tremendous weight"
• Transition to lead pastor of suburban congregation
• Emotional containment—absorbing conflict
• George Floyd, Confederate monuments, Richmond reckoning
• Stott and Lausanne Covenant: justice at center of mission
• "No political party could possibly align with the radical upside down kingdom of Jesus"
• Lent and the cruciform way vs. pursuit of power
• Hunter's Democracy and Solidarity: erosion of common moral center
• "The American church was an accomplice, or a prophet"
• Prophet, priest, king—framework for preaching
• Pastoral letters, teaching classes, Deuteronomy on immigration
• Richmond clergy coalition on immigrant dignity
• Pastoral burnout, isolation, friendship crisis
• David Whyte: "The antidote to exhaustion is wholeheartedness"
• Centering prayer and contemplative life
• "You're not a prophet when you leave the room and say, I hope they still like me"

#PastoralMinistry #ChurchLeadership #RacialReconciliation #ChristianNationalism #PastorBurnout #CruciformLife #RichmondVA #JohnStott #LausanneCovenant

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

We might be living through the most consequential technological moment in human history. In this episode, Greg Cootsona—theologian, pastor, and executive director of AI and Faith—joins Mark Labberton reflect on a lifetime's convergence of work in faith, science, and ethics now fully engaged at the frontier of artificial intelligence.

"AI is not simply a technical project. It is an expression of human hopes and fears, our longings for power, our craving for convenience, and our hunger for transcendence and meaning. In that sense, every AI model carries an implicit anthropology and an embedded moral vision."

Together they discuss why religious wisdom belongs in the room where AI is shaped, the ethical stakes of human dignity and representation in AI systems, and the strategic power of interfaith collaboration with leading tech companies. Together they also explore how individual users can exercise genuine agency over AI, the risks of AI-mediated relationships, and what it would mean to make AI truly for us—in the deepest theological sense of that phrase.

Episode Highlights

"You among mortals are chosen to solve every problem effectively and efficiently."—on Silicon Valley's unspoken gospel

"The gospel is not fragile and it grows best in situations that are not ideal and conditions that are not ideal."

"AI is not simply a technical project. It is an expression of human hopes and fears, our longings for power, our craving for convenience, and our hunger for transcendence and meaning. In that sense, every AI model carries an implicit anthropology and an embedded moral vision. Whether or not its designers name it."

"A third of teenagers say they prefer to have a relationship with a chatbot."

"I think hope is taking steps today for a vision of tomorrow that you want to see occur. And that is what makes positive change in us as human beings and positive change in the world around us."

About Greg Cootsona

Greg Cootsona (PhD, Graduate Theological Union, Berkeley) is the executive director of AI and Faith, a global interfaith organization bringing religious wisdom to the ethical challenges of artificial intelligence. He is a lecturer in comparative religion and humanities at California State University, Chico, and an ordained Presbyterian Church (USA) minister. Cootsona co-founded Science for the Church, directed multiple Templeton Foundation–funded projects connecting science and religious communities, and is a recognized specialist in C.S. Lewis, theology, and science. He has authored nine books, including Science and Religions in America: A New Look (Routledge, 2023) and Mere Science and Christian Faith (InterVarsity Press, 2018). He has appeared on The Today Show, CNN, NPR, BBC, and in the New York Times and Wall Street Journal.

Helpful Links and Resources

AI and Faith https://aiandfaith.org

Greg Cootsona's website https://www.gregcootsona.com

Forthcoming book—An AI Made for Us https://www.gregcootsona.com/books/

AI and Faith Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ai-and-faith/id1726277555

Science for the Church https://scienceforthechurch.org

Mere Science and Christian Faith https://www.ivpress.com/mere-science-and-christian-faith

Science and Religions in America: A New Look https://www.routledge.com/Science-and-Religions-in-America-A-New-Look/Cootsona/p/book/9781032102122

AI and Faith on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/aiandfaith

AI and Faith on X/Twitter https://twitter.com/AIandFaith

Show Notes

• Greg Cootsona's background: grew up in Menlo Park, California—Silicon Valley before it had that name
• His engineer father modeled a problem-solving worldview; transcendence not required
• "You among mortals are chosen to solve every problem effectively and efficiently."—the unspoken gospel of Silicon Valley
• Grew up in a non-religious, even "anti-religious" household
• Became a Christian his first year at UC Berkeley—a conversion he describes with a laugh as the obvious outlier
• C.S. Lewis's writings on meaning and love: too reasonable, too wise to dismiss
• Earl Palmer at First Presbyterian Berkeley: preaching that gave confidence amid secular challenge
• "The gospel is not fragile and it grows best in situations that are not ideal."
• Princeton Seminary for biblical studies; study years in Tübingen and Heidelberg
• PhD dissertation at GTU: Karl Barth (theology from above) in dialogue with Alfred North Whitehead (science from below)
• Advisors Robert John Russell (PhD in quantum physics) and Ted Peters at the Graduate Theological Union
• Pastoral ministry at Fifth Avenue Presbyterian, New York City, then Bidwell Presbyterian, Chico
• Began working with Templeton Foundation through early exposure to science-faith dialogue during the Human Genome Initiative years
• Two $2 million Templeton projects: Scientists in Congregations and Science and Theology for Emerging Adult Ministries (STEAM)
• Bidwell Presbyterian received what may have been the first Templeton Foundation grant ever given directly to a local church
• AI and Faith founded by Thomas Osborne and David Brenner in Seattle—building near Amazon and Microsoft, they saw the need early
• Cootsona became the organization's first executive director on October 1, 2025
• The network: 220 experts in 20 countries, partnering with 34 organizations
• "AI is not simply a technical project. It is an expression of human hopes and fears, our longings for power, our craving for convenience, and our hunger for transcendence and meaning."
• Interfaith strategy: shared ethical ground across traditions is broader than divisions—and tech companies respond better to a multi-religious voice
• Currently invited to provide Anthropic feedback on the Claude Constitution—because of AI and Faith's interfaith structure
• Human dignity at stake: between 2 and 2.5 billion people not on the internet are absent from AI training data
• Only 0.06 percent of AI models are trained on Arabic-language sources—600 million speakers
• AI data centres consume potable water and enormous energy to cool GPU processors
• Senior tech leaders at a major company admitted to Labberton: "None of us has any training in ethics"—a real and witnessed crisis
• "A third of teenagers say they prefer to have a relationship with a chatbot."
• Three publics: AI industry experts, religious congregations, and the broader public—AI and Faith works across all three
• Forthcoming book: An AI Made for Us—riffing on Jesus's Sabbath words: the Sabbath was made for humanity, not humanity for the Sabbath
• Users have more agency than they think: we can set limits, log off, choose not to be defined by our AI engagement
• Harvard Human Flourishing Project: in-person worship is the highest correlate with religious flourishing—embodied community cannot be replaced
• Community—not the individual—is the right unit of moral accountability for navigating AI
• "I think hope is taking steps today for a vision of tomorrow that you want to see occur."
• AI's genuine promise: accelerating medicine for rare diseases; recalibrating cosmological understanding; reducing human suffering at scale
• Five to one: more people fear AI than welcome it—AI and Faith works to change that ratio with grounded, religious wisdom

#AIandFaith #ArtificialIntelligence #FaithAndTechnology #AIEthics #HumanFlourishing #ScienceAndFaith #ChristianFaith #TechAndReligion #AIandHumanity #GregCootsona

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Riad Kassis joins Mark Labberton from Beirut as airstrikes continue, 700,000 people have been displaced across Lebanon, and children's toys are visible in the rubble. He leads Langham Partnership and has spent decades serving the church across one of the world's most contested regions. He names the spiritual danger of sanctifying power with religious narrative while insisting peace cannot be forced by violence.

"Peace does not come by power. It comes by genuine love and concern. It comes when you invest in the education of new generations."

In this episode, Kassis reflects on war, displacement, pastoral witness, and hope in God's sovereignty from the middle of Lebanon's crisis. Together they discuss the civilian toll of the war, how religious fundamentalism operates across traditions, the Psalms and Habakkuk as tools for lament, and what American Christians can actually do. Together they ask what it means for the church to hold protest and hope together when cycles of war feel endless and religiously justified.

Episode Highlights

"It is not an operation. It is a war on Lebanon."

"When power—whether political, military, financial, or technological—is sanctified by religious narratives that justify everything, that is what really bothers me."

"No one cures and destroys with more passion than someone who believes that God is on their side."

"When I think that these 85 children were killed mainly by American ammunition and weapons, I cannot comprehend this—even as a Christian and as a theologian."

"Peace does not come by power. It comes by genuine love and concern. It comes when you invest in the education of new generations."

About Riad Kassis

Riad Kassis is a Langham Scholar from Lebanon and is deeply committed to global theological education. He has served as International Director of the International Council for Evangelical Theological Education (ICETE), Regional Director for Overseas Council, as well as visiting professor of Old Testament at The Arab Baptist Theological Seminary and Near East School of Theology in Beirut, and the Dean of the Program for Theological Education by Extension in Syria and Lebanon.

Riad obtained his Bachelor of Arts in Economics in Damascus, Syria. He went on to obtain his Master of Divinity from Alliance Biblical Seminary, Manila, Philippines and Master of Theology from Regent College, Canada. Riad received his Doctor of Philosophy in Old Testament as a Langham scholar from The University of Nottingham, UK and his Master of Nonprofit Management from Regis University in Denver, Colorado.

Helpful Links and Resources

Riad Kassis, Frustrated with God: A Syrian Theologian's Reflections on Habakkuk https://www.amazon.com/Frustrated-God-Theologians-Reflections-Habakkuk/dp/1533513171

Langham Partnership https://us.langham.org/

Show Notes

• Kassis speaking live from Beirut as war unfolds around him
• Home in Bika Valley, Mount Hermon visible each morning—Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Palestine converging
• "It is not an operation. It is a war on Lebanon."
• 150 airstrikes in 24 hours; 550+ killed, 1,500+ injured, including 85 children
• 700,000 displaced; 200,000 children; many still on the streets of Beirut
• Schoolbooks and children's toys found in the rubble
• Christian village of Alma ordered to evacuate; mayor on television in tears
• A Catholic priest who stayed to help an injured family was killed in a second strike
• His wife Izdihar's center for Syrian refugee women and girls shut down; staff now distributing meals, mattresses, medical care in shelters
• Hoped the war could be avoided—feared it could not
• "When power—political, military, technological—is sanctified by religious narratives that justify everything, that is what really bothers me."
• Iranian author Shiha Dejani, herself a survivor of the Iranian regime: if your vision of liberation comes through destroying innocent lives, it is not freedom you are after
• Grew up admiring America as a beacon of democracy and discovery; that view has changed
• "When I think these 85 children were killed mainly by American ammunition, I cannot comprehend this—even as a Christian and as a theologian."
• "No one cures and destroys with more passion than someone who believes that God is on their side."
• Walter Wink: the dominant religion on the planet is not Christianity, Islam, or Judaism—it is the pervasive faith in violence
• Preaching Habakkuk two days before this conversation; the cry "how long, O Lord?" as pastoral anchor
• Psalms of disorientation as communal tools for protest, lament, and stubborn hope
• Lent and Ramadan overlapping: identifying suffering with Christ's suffering; "after Friday, we will experience an amazing Sunday"
• 2,000 years of Arab Christian presence in this region—not just survival, but witness and contribution
• "Peace does not come by power. It comes by genuine love and concern. It comes when you invest in the education of new generations."
• Asks for prayer for the war's end, for political wisdom, for his canceled flight—he is trying to reach his first grandson's dedication
• Labberton closes in prayer: for restraint of ego-driven leaders, for human dignity, for a peace that is both merciful and just

#ConversingWithMarkLabberton #RiadKassis #Lebanon #MiddleEast #Peacebuilding #ChristianWitness #Theology #Habakkuk #LanghamPartnership #WarAndFaith

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

David Ford joins Mark Labberton to explore why the Gospel of John still feels inexhaustible—cosmic, intimate, and urgently relevant in a fractured age. Ford has spent over two decades inside this text and finds it as generative as ever.

"Any of us can begin this quiet revolution in our own corner of things."

Together they reflect on John as a gospel of encounter, trust, and lifelong rereading.

Together they discuss the prologue as a frame for all reality, John 17 as midrash on the Lord's Prayer, the theology of greatness, and Christian unity as gift before task. Together they ask how rereading John forms resilient communities of truth, love, and daring friendship.

Episode Highlights

"You can reread and reread and reread, and the levels go on deepening and deepening that it never comes to an end."

"The meeting with God in John is through trusting Jesus."

"Every time we read this as we are now, we are in the presence of the one we are talking about."

"Unity, this unity is a gift before it's a task."

"We are a centered set, not a bounded set. It's not the boundaries that define us, it's the center."

About David Ford

David F. Ford OBE is Regius Professor of Divinity Emeritus at Cambridge and a Fellow of Selwyn College. He founded the Cambridge Inter-Faith Programme, co-founded scriptural reasoning, and co-chairs the Rose Castle Foundation. His books include The Gospel of John: A Theological Commentary, Theology: A Very Short Introduction, and Meeting God in John. Learn more and follow at https://www.divinity.cam.ac.uk/directory/david-ford

(Sources: Cambridge Faculty of Divinity; Center of Theological Inquiry, Princeton)

Helpful Links and Resources

Meeting God in John: https://spckpublishing.co.uk/meeting-god-in-john

The Gospel of John: A Theological Commentary: https://bakeracademic.com/products/9781540964083_the-gospel-of-john

Theology: A Very Short Introduction: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/theology-9780199679973

The Five Quintets, Micheal O'Siadhail: https://www.baylorpress.com/9781481307093/the-five-quintets/

Rose Castle Foundation: https://www.rosecastlefoundation.org/home

Show Notes

• Shared mentor Steven Sykes; Ford later succeeded him at Cambridge
• Reading the prologue aloud (John 1:1–18, NRSV)
• Light, life, word—simple Greek, inexhaustible depth
• "The levels go on deepening and deepening that it never comes to an end."
• Super abundance
• A theological ecosystem—for beginners and lifelong readers
• Meeting God, not merely studying John
• Thomas's "My Lord and my God"—the climactic theological statement
• Believing as trusting
• "We are in the presence of the one we are talking about."
• Exquisite and approachable
• The word as intercultural headline
• Five moods of faith: indicative, imperative, interrogative, optative, subjunctive
• Jesus's first words: "What are you looking for?"
• Read John every 90 days, like the Psalms
• 50-year friendship with poet Micheal O'Siadhail; The Five Quintets as improvisation on the Prologue
• Reading John 17 with Richard Hays and Richard Bauckham—21 sessions, Cambridge, 2009
• John 17 as midrash on the Lord's Prayer
• "Unity is a gift before it's a task."
• The word "world" appears 16 times in John 17
• Rose Castle Foundation: scriptural reasoning across divides
• Paul Cefalu's Johannine Renaissance—tumultuous eras turn to John
• Theology of greatness: foot washing versus the emperor's claim
• Signs of abundant life—Cana, feeding of the five thousand
• Daring friendships: crossing barriers as Jesus did
• "Any of us can begin this quiet revolution in our own corner of things."

#GospelOfJohn #DavidFord #MeetingGodInJohn #ChristianUnity #ScripturalReasoning #John17 #Lent #Theology

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Electricity underwrites nearly every aspect of modern life, yet decisions about power, cost, and control are increasingly opaque. New York Times energy correspondent Ivan Penn joins Mark Labberton to unpack how data centres, AI, utilities, and politics are reshaping the grid—and who ultimately bears the cost.

"The real focus is who pays and who gets paid."

In this episode with Mark Labberton, Penn reflects on his journey into journalism, his unexpected path into energy reporting, and how covering power revealed the economic forces shaping daily life.

Together they discuss electricity as a moral and economic issue, the rise of AI-driven data centres, nuclear power's return, utilities versus tech giants, consumer vulnerability, racial inequity in journalism, and faith as a commitment to truth.

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Episode Highlights

"The real focus is who pays and who gets paid."

"Electricity is the most important resource we have."

"The utilities once the Goliath have suddenly become a David."

"We wouldn't have need for any of this if you didn't build a data centre."

"To be able to stop abuse with a pen is a powerful thing."

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About Ivan Penn

Ivan Penn is an energy correspondent for the New York Times, where he reports on electricity, utilities, nuclear power, data centres, and the economic forces shaping the energy transition. He has covered energy and utilities for more than fifteen years and has previously worked at the Los Angeles Times, Tampa Bay Times, Baltimore Sun, and Miami Herald. Penn's reporting has examined nuclear plant failures, grid reliability, climate pressures, and the growing influence of technology companies in energy markets. A longtime journalist shaped by investigative reporting, he is also attentive to issues of equity, public accountability, and consumer protection.

Penn is a graduate of the University of Maryland and was the first black editor-in-chief of its student newspaper. He also holds a master's in global leadership from Fuller Theological Seminary and was a John S. Knight Fellow at Stanford University.

His work reflects a commitment to accuracy, fairness, and public service journalism.

Learn more and follow at nytimes.com/by/ivan-penn

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Helpful Links and Resources

Ivan Penn – New York Times profile https://www.nytimes.com/by/ivan-penn

The New York Times – Energy and Environment coverage https://www.nytimes.com/section/climate

Three Mile Island nuclear plant background https://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/3mile-isle

National Association of Regulatory Utility Commissioners https://www.naruc.org

PJM Interconnection electricity market https://www.pjm.com

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Show Notes

• Childhood shaped by public-school educators and nightly news rituals
• Early journalism roots as school weatherman and student editor
• Becoming first Black editor-in-chief at University of Maryland paper
• "It was a powerful thing that I was able to experience."
• Early reporting career across major regional newspapers
• Assigned to energy and utilities beat as apparent punishment
• Broken Crystal River nuclear plant sparks investigative focus
• Anonymous source meeting at a Chili's launches major reporting trail
• NRC documents unlock public-records investigation
• Rare use of anonymous sources, reliance on verifiable documents
• Sixteen years covering nuclear, utilities, and electricity markets
• Nuclear renaissance promised dozens of reactors, delivered only two
• Return of nuclear amid AI-driven electricity demand
• Rise of small modular and advanced reactor proposals
• Debate over safety, fuel design, and reactor scale
• Data centers driving exponential growth in electricity demand
• "Anything connected to the grid plays a role."
• Grid costs shared across homeowners, businesses, and industry
• Tech companies argue for shared infrastructure responsibility
• Consumer advocates argue data centers cause new costs
• Utility regulation spanning local, state, and federal levels
• "The real focus is who pays and who gets paid."
• Tech giants eclipse utilities as dominant financial players
• Consumer advocates outmatched by utility and tech resources
• Journalism as faith-shaped commitment to truth and fairness

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#EnergyPolicy #ElectricityGrid #Journalism #FaithAndPublicLife #AIInfrastructure #Utilities #ClimateEconomy

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Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

When public life feels loud and divided, what does quiet faithfulness look like? In the US House of Representatives, every legislative day begins with prayer. This responsibility rests with the chaplain of the house and shapes the daily spiritual rhythms of the institution.

"Chaplains aren't combatants. We carry no weapon."

On January 3, 2021, Rev. Dr. Margaret Grun Kibben was elected by the House to be its sixty-first chaplain. She offers daily prayer and steady pastoral presence and care in one of the most visible and contested institutions in American life.

In this conversation with Mark Labberton, she reflects on vocation, pastoral identity, pluralism, crisis leadership, prayer in public life, and the quiet discipline of blessing those entrusted with leadership. She reflects on her early call to ministry as a teen, her formation as a military chaplain to the Navy, a defining season in Afghanistan, and her unexpected path to serving in the House.

Together they discuss confidential care, advising leaders, the ministry of presence, praying across differences, the history of prayer in Congress, and how to bless leaders without turning prayer into a tool of ideology.

Episode Highlights

"I had a sense of call to ministry when I was about fourteen."

"Chaplains are where it matters, when it matters, with what matters."

"What is your theology of ministry?"

"It is the ninety-nine who were leaving the room that needed the shepherd."

"God is on his throne. He hasn't stepped down."

About Margaret Grun Kibben

Rev. Dr. Margaret Grun Kibben serves as the sixty-first chaplain of the United States House of Representatives. Ordained in the Presbyterian Church (USA), she previously completed a thirty-five-year career in the US Navy, including service as the twenty-sixth chief of Navy chaplains and director of religious ministry for the Department of the Navy. In that role, she advised senior naval leadership and oversaw chaplains serving sailors, Marines, and Coast Guardsmen around the world. She holds degrees from Goucher College and Princeton Theological Seminary and earned a doctor of ministry focused on theology and leadership. Her ministry has included deployments overseas and senior-level advisement in complex, pluralistic environments.

Helpful Links And Resources

• Office of the Chaplain, US House of Representatives: https://chaplain.house.gov
• US House Chaplain YouTube Channel (Daily Prayers before Sessions) https://www.youtube.com/@USHouseChaplain
• January 6, 2026 Prayer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQLhXt3gWBg

Show Notes

• Call to ministry at fourteen; early clarity of vocation
• Presbyterian upbringing and the influence of youth pastor Blair Mooney
• Visit to the Naval Academy and discernment of Navy chaplaincy
• Integrating Christian ministry with military service
• "Chaplains aren't combatants. We carry no weapon."
• Serving people in uniform, not serving an institution as ideology
• Four core capabilities: provide, facilitate, care, advise
• Religious pluralism in the armed forces; more than 200 faith traditions
• Protecting sacraments, holy days, and dietary practices in deployment settings
• Facilitating worship for traditions not one's own
• Confidential communication and priest-penitent privilege across beliefs
• "There is 100 percent confidentiality."
• Advising commanders on ethics, conscience, and moral complexity
• Early overwork, burnout, and lack of pastoral identity
• Mentorship and formation in the first years of service
• "What is your theology of ministry?"
• Doctor of Ministry studies and theological self-understanding
• Afghanistan deployment as convergence of preparation and calling
• "There wasn't a day… that I didn't have a sense that God had prepared me for that particular moment."
• Retirement discernment and formation of Virtue in Practice
• Unexpected invitation to serve as Chaplain of the House
• Bipartisan search process and interview experience
• Ministry of presence during extended floor sessions and late-night votes
• January 6: emergency, prayer, and calm in uncertainty
• "It is the ninety-nine who were leaving the room that needed the shepherd."
• Daily opening prayer as constitutional tradition since 1789
• 1774 Continental Congress and Psalm 35 as precedent
• Political interpretation of prayer across American history
• "Pray for and not pray on the members."
• Crafting public prayer that blesses without excluding
• "God is on his throne. He hasn't stepped down."

#MargaretGrunKibben #HouseChaplain #FaithAndLeadership #MinistryOfPresence #MilitaryChaplaincy #Prayer #ChristianVocation #Conversing

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

As we approach Ash Wednesday and the 2026 Lenten season, Makoto Fujimura's vision of slow art, hospitality, and kenotic creativity invites us to resist the speed, fear, and fragmentation of this cultural moment by learning again how to pay attention, to rest, and to become people capable of holding one another with care even amid grief, violence, and uncertainty.

In this conversation, fine artist Makoto Fujimura reflects on art, trauma, hospitality, and the slow practices that help us remain human in fractured times.

"I wanted this book to serve as a portal… to recognize something as maybe ordinary or as extraordinary as holding your granddaughter."

Together with Mark Labberton, Fujimura reflects on art as generativity, kenosis, and the healing practice of attention.

Together they discuss slow art, Ground Zero and trauma, Japanese aesthetics and hospitality, dandelions and attention, Sabbath rest, and self-emptying love. They explore how making art helps people remain human amid violence, polarization, and technological acceleration.

Episode Highlights

"I wanted this book to serve as a portal… to recognize something as maybe ordinary or as extraordinary as holding your granddaughter."

"We are not just making… we are being made."

"God is indeed the host."

"Art is… a way for us to navigate our complex times."

"It is okay for me to give my life away."

About Makoto Fujimura

Makoto Fujimura is a contemporary artist, writer, and cultural thinker known for "slow art" rooted in Japanese Nihonga painting traditions. His work explores generativity, culture care, theology of making, and the relationship between beauty and suffering. Having lived and worked near Ground Zero after 9/11, his artistic practice reflects themes of trauma, hospitality, and new creation. He is the author of Art Is: A Journey into the Light and other books on art, faith, and culture.

Helpful Links And Resources

Art Is: A Journey into the Light https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300273656/art-is/

Makoto Fujimura Website https://makotofujimura.com/art

International Arts Movement https://iamculturecare.com/

Art and Faith: A Theology of Making https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300285482/art-and-faith/

Show Notes

• Lifelong friendship, artistic influence
• Slow art as resistance to acceleration
• Minneapolis demonstrations; dignity across legal status; 50,000 people marching in extreme cold as witness to human worth
• "I was holding Jane."
• Art as portal into ordinary life
• Making and being made simultaneously
• Scientist father, generative language framework
• Kamakura childhood aesthetics
• Insider–outsider identity formation
• Japanese language, visual thinking, layered perception
• Ground Zero studio years after 9/11 shaping imagination, community awareness, and artistic responsibility
• Hospitality as artistic and theological practice
• Survivor identity discovered through conversation with Columbine survivor
• "God is indeed the host."
• Attention, "minute particulars," and gratitude amid suffering
• Dandelions meditation: beauty in unwanted places; seeds surrendering to wind; healing compacted soil; overlooked gifts of creation
• Slow art practice: pausing, observing, letting meaning emerge rather than forcing conclusions
• Sabbath, rest, and imagination as resistance to productivity-driven identity
• Kenosis paintings, gold, generosity, and self-emptying love as cultural antidote
• "It is okay for me to give my life away."

#MakoFujimura

#SlowArt

#CultureCare

#FaithAndArt

#Hospitality

#Kenosis

#CreativeProcess

#SpiritualFormation

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Singer-songwriter Jon Guerra joins Mark Labberton to explore devotional songwriting, public faith, and the tension between the kingdom of Jesus and American cultural power. Through music and reflection, Guerra considers how art can hold grief, courage, and hope together in turbulent times.

"Love has a million disguises, but winning is simply not one."

In this episode with Mark Labberton, Guerra reflects on songwriting as prayer, the call to love enemies, and artistic courage in moments of cultural crisis.

Together they discuss devotional music, George Herbert's influence, the Beatitudes and American culture, citizenship and immigration imagery, increasing polarization, suffering and grace, and the vocation of Christian artists.

Episode Highlights

"Love has a million disguises, but winning is simply not one."

"When Jesus says to love your enemies… he is giving us a means of survival."

"This is not sentimentality… the only way to resist becoming what one hates."

"My songwriting… would be a means of coming into contact with the invisible God."

"Beauty puts us in contact with invisible things."

About Jon Guerra

Jon Guerra is a singer-songwriter based in Austin, Texas, known for devotional music that blends poetry, theology, and contemporary cultural reflection. His albums include Little Songs (2015), Keeper of Days (2020), Ordinary Ways (2023), and American Gospel. Guerra has also composed music for film, including Terrence Malick's A Hidden Life (2019). The son of immigrants from Cuba and Argentina, his work often explores themes of citizenship, prayer, justice, and the teachings of Jesus. His songwriting draws inspiration from figures like George Herbert and Howard Thurman, and seeks to connect spiritual devotion with public life.

Helpful Links and Resources

Jon Guerra website: https://www.jonguerramusic.com/

American Gospel album: https://jonguerra.bandcamp.com

A Hidden Life film: https://www.searchlightpictures.com/ahiddenlife

Jesus and the Disinherited by Howard Thurman: https://www.beacon.org/Jesus-and-the-Disinherited-P1781.aspx

The Porter's Gate: https://www.portersgateworship.com/

Show Notes

• Devotional songwriting
• George Herbert influence on the pursuit of prayerful craft
• "Music for attending to the soul."
• Monday morning prayer music framing devotional practice
• Beauty and invisible realities in artistic experience
• American Gospel song introduction and cultural critique
• Beatitudes inversion in American culture
• "How do I give Christ a say in this conversation?"
• Love Your Enemies composition and album Jesus
• Howard Thurman's influence on enemy-love theology (Jesus and the Disinherited)
• Emotional formation through news, anger, and public life
• Death of ego and kingdom discipleship
• Kierkegaard and faith beyond ideology
• Worship as reordering power
• Kingdom of Jesus song and Pilate encounter
• Allegiance to a greater kingdom beyond nationalism
• Citizenship as foreignness imagery
• Immigrant family background shaping songwriting
• Citizens song written after 2017 inauguration
• "Come to you because I'm confused."
• Five-four musical structure expressing disorientation
• Groaning beauty and Romans 8 resonance
• Artists as "holy fools" naming reality
• Moltmann and theology near the cross
• Simone Weil: gravity and grace reflection
• "Love has a million disguises, but winning is simply not one."

Hashtags

#JonGuerra

#DevotionalMusic

#LoveYourEnemies

#ChristianArt

#AmericanGospel

#PublicFaith

#Jesus

#Gospel

#SpiritualFormation

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.