Conversing with Mark Labberton

When federal agents kill civilians and public outrage sweeps the nation, who gets to define justified force and who gets to hold power accountable? The killings of Renée Good and Alex Pretti have sparked protests, national shutdowns, and fresh debate about what security should look like in America.

Elizabeth Neumann, former assistant secretary for counterterrorism at the US Department of Homeland Security, joins Mark Labberton for a wide-ranging conversation about fear-based governance, moral responsibility, constitutional guardrails, and what faithful leadership looks like in a moment of political crisis.

"Cruelty is a deterrent."

In this episode with Mark Labberton, Neumann reflects on how Christian faith and public service shaped her national security career and why recent forceful immigration enforcement and lethal encounters challenge constitutional limits and moral clarity.

Together they discuss the moral and political meaning of the Minneapolis killings, trauma and vocation, immigration enforcement and democratic consent, fear-driven leadership, and how citizens and faith communities respond when institutions break down.

Episode Highlights

"Cruelty is a deterrent."

"I realized how much my hope and trust had been in man."

"We wrapped the flag around the cross."

"We see sufficiently, but not transparently."

"This is not normal, and this is not okay."

About Elizabeth Neumann

Elizabeth Neumann is a national security expert and former assistant secretary for counterterrorism at the US Department of Homeland Security. She served across three presidential administrations, including senior roles during the George W. Bush and Trump administrations, and worked extensively on counterterrorism, prevention of political violence, and domestic extremism. A frequent public commentator and congressional witness, Neumann has become a leading voice on the moral and constitutional dangers of fear-driven governance. Her work bridges public policy, trauma studies, and Christian ethics, particularly where political power collides with faith commitments. She is the author of Kingdom of Rage, a deeply personal and analytical account of extremism, nationalism, and the cost of unexamined allegiance.

Helpful Links and Resources

Kingdom of Rage: The Rise of Christian Extremism and the Path Back to Peace https://www.amazon.com/Kingdom-Rage-Christian-Extremism-Peace/dp/1546002057

Show Notes

• Elizabeth Neumann's experience growing up in North Texas
• Faith and party loyalty culturally fused
• "To be a Christian meant you were a Republican."
• Early fascination with politics and government service
• University of Texas, late 1990s political climate
• George W. Bush campaigns as formative training ground
• Entry into White House work through campaign victory
• Faith-based initiatives before September 11 reshaped national priorities
• September 11 as lived experience, not abstraction
• Crossing the 14th Street Bridge as the attacks unfolded
• "We were under attack," and nothing felt safe
• Fog, confusion, smoke, radios, and unanswered phone calls
• Trauma before resilience, fear before context
• Learning endurance from older colleagues who said, "We will get through this."
• Trauma as vocational fuel
• Hypervigilance, workaholism, and mission-driven identity
• National security as moral calling rather than career ambition
• Warning from a CIA colleague: rebuild a cadence of normal life
• Vigilance versus fear-driven overwork
• Marriage, family, and a season of spiritual deepening
• Scripture as disruption: Jeremiah 17 and misplaced trust
• "I realized how much my hope and trust had been in man."
• Public policy confidence challenged as spiritual idolatry
• Russell Moore sermon and the shock of naming Christian nationalism
• "We wrapped the flag around the cross."
• Cultural Christianity exposed as formation, not gospel
• Deconstructing politics without deconstructing faith
• Becoming comfortable with ambiguity and moral gray
• Labberton on seeing "through a glass darkly"
• Interpretive humility versus certainty culture
• Returning to government during the Trump administration
• Saying yes out of mission, not agreement
• Guardrails inside government: translating impulse into lawful action
• Illegal orders, pressure, and survival mode governance
• Lafayette Square as turning point
• Peaceful protesters met with militarized force
• Optics over constitution
• Immigration enforcement reframed as cruelty-based deterrence
• "Cruelty is a deterrent."
• ICE, CBP, and DHS operating outside traditional norms
• First, Second, and Fourth Amendment violations described
• Warrantless searches and administrative authority
• Law enforcement trained for war zones policing civilian streets
• Rapid ICE expansion without vetting or adequate training
• Fear rhetoric inside agencies creating enemy mentality
• Officers taught to expect violence from the public
• Predictable escalation and preventable deaths
• Moral injury to agents and terror inflicted on communities
• "This is not normal, and this is not okay."
• Democracy requires consent of the governed
• Public trust collapsing when law breaks the law
• Call for stand-down, retraining, and accountability
• Faithful resistance as moral clarity, not partisan alignment

#ElizabethNeumann #FaithAndPolitics #NationalSecurity #ImmigrationCrisis #MoralCourage #PublicFaith

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Church planting is thriving at the very moment the church faces a crisis of credibility. What if the problem isn't too few churches—but too narrow a vision of what church is for?

In this episode with Mark Labberton, Brad Brisco reflects on church planting shaped by Christology before strategy, mission before institution, and incarnation before programs. Together they discuss missionary imagination in the modern West, co-vocational ministry, alternative expressions of church, micro-church networks, church growth assumptions, vocation and work, justice and proximity, and what it means to return—daily—to the ways of Jesus.

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Episode Highlights

"We need to help church planters think less like pastors starting a Sunday service and more like missionaries engaging a unique context."

"If by church we mean buildings, then no—we don't need more of those."

"Mission isn't really ours. It's about what God's already doing."

"We can say we're gospel-centered and still miss the ways of Jesus."

"The only way the church gets this far off is by being void of the ways of Jesus."

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About Brad Brisco

Brad Brisco is a missiologist and church planting leader, trainer, and writer who has spent more than twenty-five years coaching and resourcing church planters across North America. After beginning his career in the restaurant industry, Brisco entered ministry through church planting and later joined Send Network, where his work has focused on alternative expressions of church, co-vocational leadership, and missionally engaged discipleship.

He also serves on the national leadership team for Forge America Mission Training Network. Brad is the co-author of "Missional Essentials," a 12-week small group study guide, "The Missional Quest: Becoming a Church of the Long Run" and "Next Door As It Is In Heaven."

He is widely known for challenging church growth assumptions and for advocating Christ-centered, incarnational approaches that integrate faith, work, and neighborhood life.

Brisco remains closely connected to decentralized microchurch networks and innovative models of mission in urban contexts.

Follow him on X: https://x.com/bradleybrisco

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Helpful Links and Resources

Missional Church Network https://www.missionalchurchnetwork.com/

Send Network https://sendnetwork.com

The Shaping of Things to Come – Alan Hirsch and Michael Frost https://www.amazon.com/Shaping-Things-Come-Innovation-Mission/dp/1565636597

Permanent Revolution – Alan Hirsch https://www.amazon.com/Permanent-Revolution-Apostolic-Imagination-Practice/dp/0470907746

Tampa Underground https://www.tampaunderground.com/

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Show Notes

• Church planting boom alongside institutional church crisis
• Restaurant business background shaping entrepreneurial ministry instincts
• Conversion, seminary, and inherited assumptions about "real" ministry
• Early confusion about church planting as a category
• From planting one church to training planters nationally
• Church defined beyond buildings toward embodied communities
• "If by church we mean buildings, then no—we don't need more of those."
• Missionary context of the modern West
• Do we need more churches or more ways of being church?
• Underserved neighborhoods and unengaged people groups
• Declining interest in traditional church programs
• Airplane anecdote exposing attractional church assumptions
• "You just need a really good sound system and a good speaker."
• Mission versus Sunday-centric church planting
• Christology–missiology–ecclesiology framework
• Jesus shaping mission before shaping church
• "Most church planters start with ecclesiology rather than the ways of Jesus."
• Church growth movement assumptions challenged
• Recapturing the missionary nature of the church
• Church as sent people, not religious service provider
• Incarnational presence in neighborhoods and workplaces
• "Mission isn't something we do over there."
• Participation in the mission of God
• "The mission isn't really ours—it's about what God's already doing."
• Individual salvation versus communal discipleship
• Robust Christology beyond the cross alone
• Incarnation, life, resurrection, and kingdom shaping mission
• Brokenness, proximity, and responsibility for place
• Mission as communal, not individual activity
• Bi-vocational and co-vocational ministry distinctions
• Marketplace calling as missional advantage
• Sacred–secular divide challenged
• Time constraints forcing alternative church models
• Team-based leadership as non-negotiable
• Theology of work as essential formation
• Financial freedom reshaping church planting incentives
• Fully funded models drifting toward attractional pressure
• Co-vocational longevity and sustainability
• Microchurch networks and decentralized leadership
• Tampa Underground as proof of concept
• Mission-first communities addressing justice and brokenness
• "Mission is the mother of adaptive ecclesiology."
• Diverse expressions emerging from contextual mission
• Established churches learning from church planting frameworks
• Incremental versus wholesale institutional change
• Sending churches supporting new expressions
• Calling the church back to the ways of Jesus
• "We can be gospel-centered and still miss the ways of Jesus."
• Credibility gap between Jesus and the church today
• Recalibrating discipleship for public faithfulness

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#ChurchPlanting

#MissionalChurch

#FaithAndWork

#Discipleship

#ChristianLeadership

#PublicFaith

#Vocation

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Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Christian faith has been politicized. Arguably, this is not new. But what we see in America and other societies has a jarring impact for those who seek a credible public Christian faith. To examine how Christian faith has been politicized in recent years, preacher and public theologian Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove joins Mark Labberton, asking what moral resistance requires in this authoritarian moment.

"I couldn't know Jesus in the fullness of who Jesus is without integrating faith and justice."

In this episode: Wilson-Hartgrove reflects on his Southern Baptist formation, his political awakening, and a conversion that reordered his understanding of Jesus, justice, and public life.

And: Trying to understand Christian nationalism, authoritarian power, poverty and race, moral fusion movements, just war theology, the discipline of prayer, and how churches can reclaim biblical values for the common good.

Episode Highlights

"I couldn't know Jesus in the fullness of who Jesus is without integrating faith and justice."

"The radical separation of faith from justice was a way my faith was stolen from me."

"We are in an authoritarian crisis that tells its own version of reality."

"Christian nationalism offers an alternative reality that very sincere people come to trust."

"Prayer interrupts the liturgy of consumerism and gives us another story."

About Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove

Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove is an author, preacher, and public theologian working at the intersection of Christian faith, moral movements, and public life. He serves as Assistant Director of the Yale Center for Public Theology and Public Policy and has spent more than two decades in faith-rooted movements for social change. A longtime collaborator with Bishop William J. Barber II, he has helped articulate the Moral Movement's moral framing of poverty, race, and democracy. Wilson-Hartgrove is the author of multiple books on public faith, justice, and Christian discipleship, and a co-creator of the widely used prayer resource Common Prayer. He lives in North Carolina, where his work remains grounded in local churches and communities.

Learn more and follow at jonathanwilsonhartgrove.com and @wilsonhartgrove

Helpful Links and Resources

Revolution of Values: Reclaiming Public Faith for the Common Good https://www.broadleafbooks.com/store/product/9781506484136/Revolution-of-Values

Common Prayer (with Shane Claiborne) https://www.zondervan.com/p/common-prayer/

White Poverty (with William J. Barber II) https://www.uncpress.org/book/9781469661927/white-poverty/

Yale Center for Public Theology and Public Policy https://publictheology.yale.edu/

Show Notes

– Growing up in rural North Carolina tobacco country; The Andy Griffith Show based on his former community

– Southern Baptist formation, scripture memorization, and the King James Bible

– Moral Majority era shaping faith and politics

– Early ambition to serve Jesus through political power

– Greyhound trip to Washington, DC with grandfather

– Becoming a Senate page at sixteen

– Working in the office of Strom Thurmond

– Encountering the racial subtext of American politics

– "There was a distance between Sunday school and what was practiced"

– Learning how southern politics realigned after civil rights

– Leaving partisan politics searching for faithful public life

– Disorientation and not knowing another way to be Christian

– Meeting a preacher shaped by the civil rights movement

– Discovering a faith that named injustice without condemnation

– "I needed another way to be Christian in public"

– Colorblind theology and segregated church life

– Conversion as seeing Jesus and reality differently

– Faith reordered by relationships, not ideology

– Christian opposition to the Iraq War

– Traveling to Iraq during U.S. bombing

– "According to just war theory, this wouldn't be a just war"

– How common sense changes over time

– Christian nationalism and manufactured moral narratives

– Alternative realities formed by trusted information sources

– "We are in an authoritarian crisis"

– Mutual aid, churches, and local resistance

– Poverty as a moral and political vulnerability

– Prayer as resistance to consumerist liturgy

– Common Prayer and the rhythm of scripture

– "Prayer gives us another story to live inside"

#JonathanWilsonHartgrove

#Authoritarianism

#PublicFaith

#ChristianNationalism

#MoralMovement

#FaithAndJustice

#CommonGood

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

As violence erupts around the world, how must we respond to those who worship power? In Venezuela, global power has reshaped lives overnight, and Elizabeth Sendek and Julio Isaza join Mark Labberton to reflect on faith, fear, and Christian witness amid political upheaval in Latin America.

"It made me question, if power is the ultimate good, then questions of morality or theology have no place. We have chosen our idol."

Together they discuss how experiences of dictatorship, displacement, and pastoral caution shape Christian responses to invasion and regime change; the relationship between power and idolatry; the moral realities that come with violent and nonviolent action; fear and pastoral responsibility; the global impact of diaspora and migration; how prayer informs action; and how the church bears faithful witness under ruthless power.

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Episode Highlights

• "It made me question, if power is the ultimate good, then questions of morality or theology have no place. We have chosen our idol."
• "Prayer is a spiritual resource, valuable, needed, urgent every day, in times of peace and in times of crisis."
• "Prayer must also go alongside personal and collective actions in the defense of life, justice, freedom, reconciliation, and peace."
• "They are very cautious, because they are not sure who is in control."
• "We should not normalize violence just because it has always existed in history."

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About Elizabeth Sendek

Elizabeth Sendek is a theologian and educator specializing in Latin American Christianity, theology and power, and the church's public witness under political violence. Her work draws from lived experience across Latin America, particularly contexts shaped by dictatorship, corruption, displacement, and ecclesial resilience. She has taught theology in academic and pastoral settings, engaging questions of ethics, political theology, and Christian responsibility in fragile societies. Sendek is widely respected for her ability to connect historical memory, biblical theology, and contemporary crises, especially regarding migration, authoritarianism, and Christian hope. Her scholarship and public engagement consistently emphasize prayer joined with concrete action, resisting both naïveté and cynicism. She speaks regularly to churches, students, and leaders seeking faithful responses to power and suffering.

About Julio Isaza

Julio Isaza, born in Colombia, is married to Katie Isaza and is the father of Samuel and Benjamin. He served with the Covenant Church of Colombia from 1995 to 2006 and later earned a master of divinity degree in Chicago, where he lived for six years. Between 2012 and 2015, he worked in the formation of university students and young professionals with Serve Globally in Medellín, Colombia. From 2016 to 2025, he served in peace-building processes in conflict areas of Colombia and also as a professor at the Biblical Seminary of Colombia, teaching in the areas of missional theology, cultural context, and holistic impact strategies. During this time, he also worked with Indigenous communities in the Colombian rainforest, engaging in oral theology initiatives. His work has focused on holistic discipleship, theological education, and peace-building. He holds a master's degree in Conflict and Peace from the University of Medellín and is currently pursuing a PhD in Theology and Peace at the Oxford Centre for Mission Studies in England. A US citizen, he resides in Minnesota with his family, where he is writing his doctoral dissertation titled "Cultivating Integral (Biblical) Peace in a Context of Socio-environmental Violence."

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Helpful Links And Resources

Princeton Theological Seminary https://www.ptsem.edu

Psalm 73 (New International Version) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+73&version=NIV

New Community Covenant Church (David Swanson) https://newcommunitycovenant.com/

Christians for Social Action https://christiansforsocialaction.org

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Show Notes

• News of Venezuelan invasion and presidential extrication
• Awakening to international headlines and Colombian news coverage
• Power displacing morality and theology
• "It made me question, if power is the ultimate good, then questions of morality or theology have no place."
• "We have chosen our idol."
• Violence beyond headlines and unseen civilian consequences
• Personal stories from Caracas neighbourhoods and bomb damage
• "You see in the news about Maduro taken, but you don't see the consequences of what happened."
• "Some of her family was killed in Caracas because of the bombs."
• Childhood shaped by armed conflict in rural Colombia
• Guerrilla groups, military raids, and forced displacement
• Paramilitary violence and state-backed terror in towns
• "When I was a child, I would draw helicopters and militaries killing each other."
• Conversion shaped by studying the life of Jesus
• "When I began to study the gospel, I thought that Jesus's way is not a violent way."
• Pastoral caution under volatile political regimes
• Fear shaping Christian speech and public silence
• "For the sake of my congregation, I cannot voice any opinion."
• Churches continuing ministry amid uncertainty
• "They agreed that this time is an opportunity to share the gospel of hope."
• Prayer as resistance and sustenance
• "Prayer is a spiritual resource, valuable, needed, urgent every day, in times of peace and in times of crisis."
• Prayer joined with embodied action
• "Prayer must also go alongside personal and collective actions in the defense of life, justice, freedom, reconciliation, and peace."
• Long histories of dictatorship shaping Latin American theology
• Skepticism toward purely academic liberation theology
• Credibility rooted in lived solidarity with the poor
• Diaspora pressure and forced return narratives
• "Now people say Venezuelans can go back to their own country."
• Xenophobia and fear within host communities
• Displacement as ongoing trauma for migrant families
• Scripture shaping hope amid cynicism
• "When I tried to understand all this, it troubled me deeply, till I entered the sanctuary of God."
• Refusing to normalize power's violence
• "Our call is not to normalize it, nor to declare it an act of God."

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#FaithAndPolitics

#LatinAmerica

#ChristianWitness

#PowerAndViolence

#Venezuela

#ChurchAndState

#PublicTheology

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

What happens when a long pastoral calling ends, friendships fade, and the church faces cultural fracture? Bishop Kenneth C. Ulmer (42 years in ministry at Faithful Central Bible Church in Inglewood, CA) joins Mark Labberton for a searching conversation about retirement from pastoral ministry, loneliness, leadership, and the meaning of credible witness in the Black church today.

"Ministry can be a lonely business."

In this episode, Bishop Ulmer reflects on the stepping away after four decades of pastoral leadership, navigating aloneness, disrupted rhythms, and the spiritual costs of transition. Together they discuss pastoral loneliness, friendship and grief, retirement and identity, church leadership after elections, authenticity versus attraction, political division in congregations, and whether the church still centers Jesus.

Episode Highlights

• "Ministry can be a lonely business."
• "[Boy, pointing to a church] Is God in there? [Pastor] Sometimes I wonder."
• "There's a Moses in you that will see farther than you'll go."
• "The tension is authenticity versus attraction."
• "Jesus is the answer for the world today."

About Kenneth C. Ulmer

Bishop Kenneth C. Ulmer is Bishop Emeritus of Faithful Central Bible Church in Inglewood, California, where he served as senior pastor for more than four decades. A nationally respected preacher, civic leader, and mentor, Ulmer played a significant role in the spiritual and economic life of Los Angeles, including the preservation of the Forum as a major community asset. He has been a prominent voice in conversations about the Black church, urban ministry, and faithful Christian leadership amid cultural and political change. Ulmer continues to teach, preach, and advise leaders while reflecting publicly on vocation, aging, and wisdom in ministry.

Learn more and follow at https://www.faithfulcentral.com

Helpful Links And Resources

• Faithful Central Bible Church: https://www.faithfulcentral.com
• Conversing with Mark Labberton: https://comment.org/conversing
• Credible Witness podcast: https://faith.yale.edu/credible-witness

Show Notes

• Long pastoral tenure ending after more than four decades of leadership
• Friendship formed through shared grief and the loss of trusted companions
• Prayer, friendship, and ministry forged "on our knees" at Hollywood Presbyterian
• Loss of regular companionship revealing unexpected loneliness and aloneness
• "Ministry can be a lonely business."
• Absence of trusted friends exposing a deep relational void
• Final sermon titled "I Did My Best," echoing 2 Timothy imagery and the words on Kenneth Ulmer's father's grave
• "I fought a good fight" as closing vocational reflection
• Disrupted spiritual rhythm after forty-one years of weekly preaching
• "My rhythm is off."
• Identity shaped by Sunday coming "every seven days"
• Question of where and how to worship after stepping away
• Public recognition colliding with uncertainty about purpose
• Therapy as a faithful response to grief and transition
• Energy and health without a clear channel for vocation
• Question of "what do you do now?" after leadership ends
• Seeing farther than you will go as a leadership reality
• Deuteronomy 34 and Moses viewing the Promised Land
• "There's a Moses in you that will see farther than you'll go."
• Passing vision to a Joshua who will go farther than he can see
• Grief of cheering from the sidelines while no longer on the field
• Wrestling with authenticity versus attraction in church leadership
• John 12:32 and the tension of lifting up Jesus to draw others
• "The tension is authenticity versus attraction."
• Fear of entertainment, production, and celebrity eclipsing Christ
• Question of whether churches are built on preaching or personality
• Political polarization dividing congregations and pulpits
• Question pastors must ask: "Who am I going to be after this ballot?"
• Kingdom identity beyond donkey or elephant, only the Lamb
• "Holding up the bloodstained banner" as faithful witness
• Doors of the church open—how wide are they, and for whom?
• Concern for credibility after the benediction and after the election
• Civic engagement without surrendering theological center
• Preserving community good beyond church walls and buildings
• Forum purchase as economic stewardship, not church expansion
• Question of whether God is still "in that house"
• How much of the God inside gets outside into the neighborhood?
• Jesus as the enduring answer amid cultural confusion
• Worship song, "We Offer Jesus"
• "Jesus in the morning, Jesus at noonday, Jesus in the midnight hour."
• Call to be the extended incarnation in ordinary life: "You are the temple."
• "Who are you turning away that he [Jesus] would not turn away?"

#KennethCUlmer

#PastoralLeadership

#ChurchAndCulture

#CredibleWitness

#FaithAfterRetirement

#AuthenticityVsAttraction

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Can joy be anything but denial in a rage-filled public life? Michael Wear joins Mark Labberton to reframe politics through the kingdom logic of hope, agency, and practices of silence and solitude. As 2025 closes amid political discord, we might all ask whether joy can be real in public life—without denial, escapism, or contempt.

"… Joy is a pervasive and constant sense of wellbeing."

In this conversation, Michael Wear and Mark Labberton reflect on joy, hope, responsibility, and agency amid a reaction-driven politics. Together they discuss the realism of Advent; the limits of our control; how kingdom imagination reframes anger; hope beyond outcomes, dignity under threat, and practices (including silence and solitude) that restore clarity.

Episode Highlights

"Joy is a pervasive and constant sense of wellbeing. … Joy is not a technique to then get people to do what you want them to do."

"God's Kingdom is the range of his effective will."

" Someone whose hope is rightly placed sees that a dignity denying culture does not have the final say."

"Our will is effective and those things in which our will is not effective."

"The pattern of domination and violence is an old one."

About Michael Wear

Michael Wear is the Founder, President, and CEO of the Center for Christianity and Public Life, a nonpartisan nonprofit that contends for the credibility of Christian resources in public life, for the public good. He has served for more than a decade as a trusted advisor to civic and religious leaders on faith and public life, including as a presidential campaign and White House staffer. He is the author of The Spirit of Our Politics: Spiritual Formation and the Renovation of Public Life and Reclaiming Hope: Lessons Learned in the Obama White House About the Future of Faith in America. Learn more and follow at https://www.michaelwear.com.

Helpful Links and Resources

• Michael Wear, The Spirit of Our Politics https://www.zondervan.com/9780310367239/the-spirit-of-our-politics/
• Michael Wear, Reclaiming Hope https://www.thomasnelson.com/9780718082338/reclaiming-hope/
• Center for Christianity and Public Life https://www.ccpubliclife.org/
• A National Call to Silence and Solitude https://www.silenceandsolitude.org/
• Dallas Willard: "Personal Soul Care" https://dwillard.org/resources/articles/personal-soul-care
• Howard Thurman, Jesus and the Disinherited https://www.beacon.org/Jesus-and-the-Disinherited-P1781.aspx

Show Notes

• End of 2025, cusp of Christmas; fraught public moment; joy as the lynchpin for faithful presence in politics and public life
• Joy held with pain, suffering, complexity
• Refusing denial while trusting a God who relentlessly pursues the world in love and hope
• Joy intertwined with hope, responsibility, agency
• Where does responsibility end and faithful agency begin?
• "Willard would say joy is a pervasive and constant sense of wellbeing."
• " It is very difficult to have joy if you are taking responsibility for things that are not your responsibility."
• Public life as joyless space; lacking imagination for joy amid provocation, antagonism, and constant political showmanship
• "If there are places in our life where we can't conceive of joy, it's a problem with our view of God."
• Misplaced responsibility, misplaced hope; joy collapses when taking on burdens that aren't ours and treating agency as ultimate
• "God's kingdom is the range of his effective will."
• "We each have our own little kingdoms … where what we say to be done is done."
• Politics reveals limits; a clarity about what we can do, what we can't do, and what we must import into the rest of life
• "Our will is effective, and there are things in which our will is not effective."
• "Faithfulness is not the ability to determine a righteous outcome … to everything in which our lives touch."
• False responsibility, obscured agency
• Are we taking charge of what isn't ours while ignoring the real choices we do have?
• "That's a recipe for joylessness."
• Poked and prodded by provocations; entertainment, antagonisms, and helplessness normalize reaction and justify complicity
• Anger as political fuel
• Many assume that raising your voice is the only faithful posture inside the public arena.
• "I've had people respond to me: 'How am I going to get anything done in politics without anger?'"
• "Political imagination has been taken over by a political logic as opposed to a kingdom logic."
• Relearning responsibility and agency; hope not grounded in our effectiveness, but in what God is doing beyond our reach.
• "Ultimate hope lies outside of the range of our effective will."
• "It is in that realm in which we are perfectly safe."
• Hope is for a life that pervades all things.
• "So when your hope is in the right place, you can hope for a whole range of things."
• " Someone whose hope is rightly placed sees that a dignity denying culture does not have the final say."
• Hope and joy "when your back is against the wall"
• Allen Temple Baptist Church: Joy at the margins of culture
• Fannie Lou Hamer
• Howard Thurman, Jesus and the Disinherited
• First Presbyterian Church in Evanston, IL
• Michael Wear, The Spirit of Our Politics
• Psalm 23 as distress-psalm: Enemies are still present, yet God leads beside still waters and cares most in greatest distress.
• "Take off the old self with its practices and put on the new self."
• "Put on Christ now in a way that will affect everything around us."
• Herod: The paranoid leader
• Advent into Christmastide—what it means to dwelling in Emmanuel
• "This is why the incarnation is such an extraordinarily important cornerstone: It's that God enters in through Jesus into our world, in a world in which, yes, there may be great praises in heaven and on earth from those who understand something at least of who he is and what he's there to do. But it also lands him in a world of immediate physical and familial vulnerability of political and social, if not military, violence."
• Are we protected from vulnerability, or living in precarity?
• The pattern of domination and violence
• Refusing forgetfulness as 2026 approaches with fresh pressures and fresh calling.
• National call to silence and solitude; disinvesting from reactionary instincts to engage the world with renewed vision and clarity. silenceandsolitude.org
• "Silence and solitude… can infuse your public activity with right vision and right clarity."

#MichaelWear #MarkLabberton #ChristianPublicLife #ChristianPolitics #SpiritualFormation #Joy #Advent #SilenceAndSolitude #Hope #PublicWitness

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

What if taking Mary seriously actually deepens, rather than distracts from, devotion to Jesus? Art historian and theologian Matthew Milliner joins Mark Labberton to explore that possibility through history, theology, and the Incarnation. In a searching conversation about Mary, the meaning of Marian devotion, and the mystery of the Incarnation, they draw from early Christianity, Protestant theology, and global Christianity, as Milliner reframes Mary as a figure who deepens devotion to Christ rather than distracting from it.

"I don't see how anyone cannot understand this to be the revolution of revolutions in regards to the way that women are understood."

In this episode, they reflect on Mary as presence, witness, and theological key to understanding God's entry into human life. They discuss Marian devotion before the Reformation, excess and restraint in Christian practice, the Incarnation's implications for embodiment and gender, Protestant fears and recoveries, global Marian traditions, grief and discipleship, and why Mary ultimately points beyond herself to Christ.

Episode Highlights

• "I love Jesus so much that I love his mom too. Isn't she great too?"
• " What relationship do you have in your life where if you knew the parents of the person you're in relationship with, that would damage the relationship? … It's a sign of deep intimacy."
• "There is no Christianity without Mary. That's how God came into the world."
• "She is my tutorial in grief."
• "If it's the real Mary you're dealing with, she will point you to Jesus."
• "The answer to the abuse is to point to the best use."
• "She became a presence in the church for me."
• "I don't see how anyone cannot understand this to be the revolution of revolutions."

About Matthew Milliner

Matthew J. Milliner is Associate Professor of Art History at Wheaton College, where he specializes in early Christian, Byzantine, and global Christian art. His scholarship explores theology through visual culture, with particular attention to Mary, the Incarnation, and Christian devotion across traditions. Milliner is widely published in academic journals and popular outlets, including Comment Magazine, where he has written extensively on Marian theology and Christian art. He is a frequent speaker and lecturer on Christianity and aesthetics, and his work bridges evangelical theology, Anglican practice, and historic Christian tradition. Milliner is also known for his teaching on icons, pilgrimage, and the relationship between art, doctrine, and discipleship.

Helpful Links and Resources

• Read Matthew Milliner's column, Material Mysticism, for Comment Magazine https://comment.org/columns/material-mysticism/
• Matthew Milliner, Mother of the Lamb: The Story of a Global Icon: https://www.amazon.com/Mother-Lamb-Story-Global-Icon/dp/1506478751
• Matthew Milliner faculty page: https://www.wheaton.edu/academics/faculty/matthew-milliner/
• Stephen Shoemaker, Mary in Early Christian Faith and Devotion: https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300217216/mary-in-early-christian-faith-and-devotion/
• Rosemary Radford Ruether, Goddesses and the Divine Feminine: https://www.ucpress.edu/books/goddesses-and-the-divine-feminine/paper
• William Johnston, The Wounded Stag: https://www.harvard.com/book/9780823218394
• The Angelus Prayer (recited in this conversation): https://www.usccb.org/prayers/angelus
• Shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham: https://www.walsinghamanglican.org.uk

Show Notes

• Opening prayer invoking Mary's witness, comfort, and example as a way of drawing listeners toward Christ rather than away from him
• Evangelical identity reclaimed as gospel proclamation rather than political alignment or cultural branding
• Early Marian devotion emerging "early and often" in Christian history, grounded in Jerusalem rather than later medieval invention
• "I love Jesus so much that I love his mom too. Isn't she great too?"
• Honoring Mary without worship, framed through Revelation imagery of the bride and the people of God
• Archaeological and manuscript discoveries reshaping assumptions about early Christian practice
• Marian devotion expanding intimacy rather than competing with Christological focus
• Newman on devotion requiring excess, extravagance, and emotional overflow to be genuinely human
• "Let the Christian Church let it boil over every once in a while."
• Reformation dynamics producing extremes: feverish excess on one side and stone-cold rejection on the other
• Rosemary Radford Ruether, Goddesses and the Divine Feminine
• Pagan goddess traditions contrasted with Marian imagery and their treatment of women's bodies
• Aphrodite imagery as endorsement of male desire versus Marian imagery as reverence for God's entry into flesh
• "Find me an image of Mary that does anything close to that."
• Incarnation reshaping how Christians see the female body, sexuality, and dignity
• "This is the body God entered the world through."
• The angel Gabriel's Annunciation and Mary's consent
• Annunciation framed as consent rather than coercion, with Luke emphasizing Mary's agency
• "Nothing happens to her until she consents."
• Mary as theological answer to pornographic and exploitative religious imaginations
• "I don't see how anyone cannot understand this to be the revolution of revolutions."
• Guadalupe as evangelistic bridge for indigenous peoples pointing toward Christ without blood sacrifice
• Mary's global accessibility across Muslim, Hindu, and non-Christian contexts
• "She is a real evangelist, Mary."
• Walsingham pilgrimage as Anglican recovery of Marian devotion
• Marian attraction functioning as penumbra drawing outsiders toward Christianity
• "If it's the real Mary you're dealing with, she will point you to Jesus."
• Abuse of Marian devotion acknowledged alongside historical self-correction within Catholicism
• "The answer to the abuse is to point to the best use."
• Matthew Milliner's personal spiritual journey from childhood Catholicism through evangelical conversion
• Anti-Mary phase followed by rediscovery through art history and theology
• "She became a presence in the church for me."
• Mary understood as presence rather than abstract idea, without becoming divine
• William Johnson's, The Wounded Stag: God is beyond gender
• Devotional practice as tributary flowing into Trinitarian worship rather than replacing it
• "There is no Christianity without Mary. That's how God came into the world."
• Angelus prayer as scriptural meditation culminating in Trinitarian praise
• "Pour your grace into our hearts, O Lord."
• Psychological and spiritual healing through Marian presence without theological confusion
• Mary as guide for grief through images of sorrow and seven swords
• "She is my tutorial in grief."
• Black Madonna traditions interpreted through devotion, time, soot, and divine darkness
• Darkness as sign of overwhelming divine light rather than absence of God

#ConversingPodcast #MatthewMilliner #MaryTheology #Incarnation #ChristianTradition #AdventReflections #FaithAndArt

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

How should Christian faith shape work in an era of pluralism, fear, and systemic inequality? Sociologist Elaine Howard Ecklund (Rice University) is presenting new insights for faith at work through data, theology, and lived experience.

"People love to talk about individual ethics … but what was really hard for them to think about was, what would it mean to make our workplace better as a whole?"

In this episode, Ecklund joins Mark Labberton to reflect on moving from individual morality toward systemic responsibility, dignity, and other-centred Christian witness at work. Together they discuss faith and work, the gender and race gaps created by systemic injustice, fear and power, religious diversity, rest and human limits, gender and racial marginalization, and the cost of a credible Christian witness.

Episode Highlights

• "People love to talk about individual ethics."
• "What would it mean to make our workplace better as a whole?"
• "People are much more apt to take us seriously if we first take them seriously."
• "Suppression of faith in particular is not the answer."
• "God is God and I am not."

About Elaine Howard Ecklund

Elaine Howard Ecklund is professor of sociology at Rice University and director of the Boniuk Institute for the Study and Advancement of Religious Tolerance. She is a leading sociologist of religion, science, and work whose research examines how faith operates in professional and institutional life. Ecklund has led large-scale empirical studies on religion in workplaces and scientific communities, supported by the National Science Foundation, Templeton Foundation, and Lilly Endowment. She is the author or co-author of several influential books, including Working for Better, Why Science and Faith Need Each Other, and Science vs. Religion. Her work informs academic, ecclesial, and public conversations about pluralism, justice, and moral formation in modern society.

Learn more and follow at https://www.elaineecklund.com and https://twitter.com/elaineecklund

Helpful Links And Resources

• Working for Better (IVP): https://www.ivpress.com/working-for-better
• Why Science and Faith Need Each Other (IVP): https://www.ivpress.com/why-science-and-faith-need-each-other
• Elaine Howard Ecklund website: https://www.elaineecklund.com
• Rice University Boniuk Institute: https://boniuk.rice.edu
• Conversing with Mark Labberton: https://comment.org/conversing

Show Notes

• Sociological study of religion, work, and group behavior
• Christian faith taken seriously at personal and academic levels
• Ecklund's former research focus on science as a workplace environment
• Expanding faith-at-work research beyond scientific communities
• Compartmentalized Christian faith and the fear of offending colleagues
• Friendship and collaboration emerging from leadership retreats
• Large-scale data-driven study on religion in changing workplaces
• Religious pluralism at work and changing workplace demographics
• Writing for Christian audiences shaped by empirical research
• From individual ethics toward systemic responsibility at work
• "People love to talk about individual ethics."
• Systemic injustice blind spots
• Moral shorthand focused on time sheets and office supplies
• Organizational leadership and culture change
• Difficulty imagining organizational or structural workplace change
• Fear of retaliation when confronting unjust systems
• Responsibility for workplace realities
• Power underestimated by those holding leadership positions
• Costly examples of speaking up against workplace injustice
• Christian fear of marginalization in pluralistic environments
• Suppression of religious expression as common workplace response
• Suppression versus accommodation: "Suppression of faith in particular is not the answer."
• Religious diversity as unavoidable reality of modern work
• Other-centered faith rooted in dignity of every person
• Imago Dei shaping engagement across religious difference
• "People are much more apt to take us seriously if we first take them seriously."
• Racialized religious minorities: the double marginalization of racial minorities of faith
• Gender inequity and underexamined workplace power dynamics
• Faith-based employee groups
• Fear masquerading as anger in cultural and religious conflict
• Workplaces as rare spaces for meaningful civic encounter
• Justice beyond activism
• Rest as theological foundation for justice and leadership
• Limits, Sabbath, and resisting productivity as ultimate value
• "God is God and I am not."
• Human limits in leadership

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

#FaithAndWork

#ElaineHowardEcklund

#ChristianEthics

#WorkplaceJustice

#ReligiousPluralism

#RestAndFaith

As global powers double down on militarism and defense, Daniel Zoughbie argues that the most transformative force in the Middle East has always come from citizen diplomacy.

A complex-systems scientist and diplomatic historian, Zoughbie joins Mark Labberton to explore how twelve US presidents have "kicked the hornet's nest" of the modern Middle East. Drawing on his work in global health and his new book Kicking the Hornet's Nest: U.S. Foreign Policy in the Middle East from Truman to Trump, Zoughbie contrasts the view from refugee camps and micro-clinic networks with the view from the Oval Office, arguing that American security rests on a three-legged stool of defence, diplomacy, and development.

He explains why Gerald Ford stands out as the lone president who truly leveraged diplomacy, how the Marshall Plan model of enlightened self-interest can guide policy now, and why nationalism, not mere economics, lies at the heart of Gaza's future. Throughout, he presses listeners toward "citizen diplomacy" that resists pride, militarism, and fatalism.

Episode Highlights

• "We've constantly ignored diplomacy."
• " You don't have to be enemies with people to get them to do what is in their own self-interest."
• "You can build skyscrapers in Gaza. You can build the Four Seasons in Gaza and it's not going to work. You're just going to have another war until you address that core issue of nationalism."
• "These three D's, defense, diplomacy, development, are the three-legged stool of American security and we know how important diplomacy and development are."
• "From Truman to Trump, only one president, and that is Gerald Ford, surprisingly the only unelected president, gets this right."
• "Pride—national pride, the pride of any one individual—is toxic. It's toxic to the individual. It's toxic to the nation. It's toxic to the world."
• "Foreign policymaking is not just something for secretaries of state and those in power. All of us in a democracy have a role to play."

Helpful Links and Resources

• Kicking the Hornet's Nest: U.S. Foreign Policy in the Middle East from Truman to Trump https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Kicking-the-Hornets-Nest/Daniel-E-Zoughbie/9781668085226
• American University of Beirut (founded as Syrian Protestant College), a key example of long-term educational diplomacy https://www.aub.edu.lb
• Al-Ahli Arab (Gaza Baptist) Hospital in Gaza City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ahli_Arab_Hospital
• Max Weber, "Politics as a Vocation" https://dn790009.ca.archive.org/0/items/weber_max_1864_1920_politics_as_a_vocation/weber_max_1864_1920_politics_as_a_vocation.pdf
• Quaker Friends School, Ramallah: https://www.rfs.edu.ps/en
• Amman Baptist School: https://baptist.edu.jo/
• American Colony Hotel in Jerusalem founding in the Husseini Estate by the author of "It is Well" https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/americancolony/amcolony-family.html and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Colony_Hotel
• Foreman Christian College, Pakistan (Presbyterian) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forman_Christian_College
• American University of Cairo (Presbyterian) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_University_in_Cairo

About Daniel Zoughbie

Daniel E. Zoughbie is a complex-systems scientist, historian, and expert on presidential decision-making. He is associate project scientist at UC Berkeley's Institute of International Studies, a faculty affiliate of the UCSF/UCB Center for Global Health Delivery, Diplomacy, and Economics, and principal investigator of the Middle East and North Africa Diplomacy, Development, and Defense Initiative. He is the author of Kicking the Hornet's Nest: U.S. Foreign Policy in the Middle East from Truman to Trump and of Indecision Points: George W. Bush and the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. His award-winning research has appeared in journals such as PLOS Medicine, Mayo Clinic Proceedings, and Social Science and Medicine. A Phi Beta Kappa graduate of UC Berkeley, he studied at Oxford on a Marshall Scholarship and completed his doctorate there as a Weidenfeld Scholar.

Show Notes

Middle East Background and Micro-clinic Origins

• Daniel Zoughbie recalls visiting the Middle East as a child—"frankly horrified" by what he saw
• UC Berkeley protests over the Iraq War and post-9/11 US policy in the region
• Metabolic disease and type 2 diabetes as an overlooked "greatest killer in the region."
• Neighbours in the West Bank sharing food, medicine, and blood-pressure cuffs—leads to the "micro-clinic" concept
• Good health behaviours, like bad ones and even violence, can be contagious through social networks

Social Networks, Anthropology, and Security

• Social anthropology, political science, and international relations
• Medical problems as simultaneously biological and sociological problems
• Understanding Middle East security demands attention to decisions "at the very bottom" as well as "the view from above"
• October 7 and 9/11 illustrate how small groups of people can "change the world with their decisions."

Complex Systems and Foreign Policy

• Complexity is always increasing, and diplomacy and development exist to slow it down.
• Definition of "complex system": as one where many inputs produce outcomes that cannot be reduced to single causes.
• "We almost have a new law here, which is that complexity is always increasing in the universe. And the role of diplomacy and development, as I see it in international relations, is to slow things down. It's to stop complexity from advancing so that people have time to cool their tempers and to solve major security crises."
• Type 2 diabetes as a model for thinking about how city planning, economics, relationships, and habits interact
• He applies that lens to international relations: nations, leaders, institutions, and history form a "cascade of complexity."

From Refugee Camps to Presidential Palaces

• George Shultz and Tony Blair: decision-makers as "real human beings," not abstractions
• Theological and ideological forces—such as certain apocalyptic readings of Scripture—that shape US foreign policy
• Gnosticism and eschatology within American right-wing Christianity
• Painstaking global health work on the ground and sweeping decisions made in Washington, Brussels, or New York

Twelve Presidents and One Exception

• Kicking the Hornet's Nest: analysis of twelve presidents from Truman to Trump through the lens of Middle East decision-making
• Core claim: Only Gerald Ford truly rebalanced the three D's of defence, diplomacy, and development.
• US policy in the Levant: heavy reliance on militarism, coups, and covert actions while underinvesting in diplomacy and development
• Claim: "Far better alternatives were on the table" for every administration, yet consistently passed over.

Gerald Ford, Kissinger, and the Path to Peace

• Daniel contends that the 1967 and 1973 wars were both preventable and nearly became global nuclear catastrophes.
• Ford inherits the presidency amid Watergate and national division, but keeps Henry Kissinger at State.
• Ford presses Israel and Egypt toward serious negotiations, empowering Kissinger's shuttle diplomacy and personal ties.
• A sharply worded letter threatening to "reconsider" the US-Israel relationship
• Ford's diplomacy and the development of Camp David and the enduring Egypt-Israel peace based on "land for peace."

Pride, Personality, and Presidential Failure

• Did Ford's temperament keep him from making himself the center of the story?
• In contrast, many presidents and other leaders write themselves "thickly" into the narrative of the conflict.
• Pride—personal and national—as a toxic force that repeatedly undermines US policy
• The Iraq War and democracy-promotion agenda and the self-defeating nature of moralistic, militarized crusades

Marshall Plan and Enlightened Self-Interest

• George Marshall and harsh punishment after World War I helped produce Nazi Germany
• The Marshall Plan models an "enlightened way of viewing the American self-interest": rebuilding Europe and Japan to secure U.S. security.
• He contrasts that with the neglect of the Levant, where aid and institution-building never matched military activism.
• Marshall's genius lies in locating the intersection between others' deepest needs and American capabilities.

Militarism, Iran, and Nuclear Risk

• Recent US-Israel-Iran confrontation as an "extremely dangerous moment"—with 60 percent enriched uranium unaccounted for
• JCPOA as an imperfect but effective diplomatic achievement, but dismantled in favor of militarism
• Claim: Bombing Iran scattered nuclear material and increased complexity rather than reducing the threat.
• He warns that one nuclear device could be delivered by low-tech means—a boat or helicopter—endangering civilians and US forces in the Gulf.
• The only realistic path forward: renewed multilateral diplomacy between US, Israel, Iran, Russia, China, Pakistan, India, and regional actors

Ethical Realism and Max Weber

• "Ethical realism"—Max Weber's distinction between the ethic of the gospel and the ethic of responsibility
• Statespeople bear responsibility for using force, yet the greatest can still say "here I stand and I can do no other."
• Claim: True leadership seeks a higher ethic where national interest aligns with genuine concern for others.

Gaza, Nationalism, and Two States

• Welcoming the end of active war between Israel and Hamas and critiquing reconstruction plans that ignore politics
• Conflict is fundamentally nationalist: a struggle for self-determination by both Jewish and Palestinian peoples
• Claim: Economic development without a credible political horizon will not prevent "another October 7th and another terrible war."
• In his view, only partition of mandatory Palestine into two states can meet legitimate self-determination claims.
• For example, "You can build skyscrapers in Gaza… and it's not going to work" without addressing nationalism.

Citizen Diplomacy and a Better Way

• Foreign policy is not only the work of secretaries of state; democratic citizens have responsibilities.
• American University of Beirut and the Gaza Baptist Hospital as fruits of citizen diplomacy
• Claim: Educational and medical institutions can change lives more profoundly and durably than military campaigns.
• Redirecting resources from bombs to universities and hospitals to reduce the need for future military interventions
• An invitation to citizen diplomacy: informed voting, sustained attention, and creative engagement for a more just peace

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Rabbi Michael G. Holzman joins Mark Labberton to explore the formation of his Jewish faith, the pastoral realities of congregational life, and the multi-faith initiative he helped launch for the nation's 250th anniversary, Faith 250. He reflects on his early experiences of wonder in the natural world, the mentors who opened Torah to him, and the intellectual humility that shapes Jewish approaches to truth. Their conversation moves through the unexpected depth of congregational ministry, the spiritual and emotional weight of the pandemic, the complexities of speaking about God in contemporary Jewish life, and the role of cross-faith friendships. The episode concludes with Rabbi Holzman's reflections on how the suffering in Israel and Palestine reverberates among Jews and Muslims in America.

Episode Highlights

• "I think we are desperately in need of ways to get Americans to agree that they're in the same community… simply by naming the Declaration of Independence as a piece of shared American scripture… we are inviting people and really challenging ourselves to think about the words in those documents seriously, and prayerfully."
• "My formation as a child was relatively non-theological… my mother just would sit there and say, 'Do you feel that wind?' And for me, knowing that it was in a national park mattered… being in such a grand and awesome space, under the enormity of the heavens."
• "The pursuit of truth with epistemic humility really became the cornerstone…if Moses wasn't allowed to see God's face, I'm never gonna see God's face—and yet we are all still pursuing what the meaning of this incredible text is."
• "I was a little bit unprepared… until you experience it as a pastor, you don't really understand the power of those things. That rootedness in this particular congregation gave me a sense of existential meaning that I didn't anticipate."
• "The thing that got me through that darkness was Saturday morning Torah study… just being there with the text and with these faces and these people… that to me was my path through the darkness."
• "When people are sitting over the text, the most palpable experience of God is this moment of understanding another human being… it's so vulnerable and it's so fleeting and it's so beautiful."
• "There is an experience happening on the ground of absolute suffering and horror on both sides… and there's a parallel experience happening for Jews and Muslims in America. It's powerful, spiritually powerful, emotionally powerful, and to people's core."

Helpful Links and Resources

• Faith 250 https://www.faith250.org/
• "The New Colossus" by Emma Lazarus https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46550/the-new-colossus
• "What to the Slave Is the Fourth of July?" by Frederick Douglass https://teachingamericanhistory.org/document/what-to-the-slave-is-the-fourth-of-july/
• "America the Beautiful" by Katherine Lee Bates https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-resources/spotlight-primary-source/america-beautiful-1893
• I and Thou, Martin Buber https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780684717258/i-and-thou

About Rabbi Michael G. Holzman

Rabbi Michael G. Holzman is the Senior Rabbi of Northern Virginia Hebrew Congregation (NVHC), where he has served since 2010. His work focuses on spiritual formation, civic engagement, multi-faith partnership, and the cultivation of communities grounded in dignity, learning, and ethical responsibility. He founded the Rebuilding Democracy Project, which developed into Faith 250, a national multi-faith initiative preparing communities for the 250th anniversary of the United States through shared reflection on foundational American texts. He teaches and writes on Jewish ethics, civic life, and spiritual resilience.

Show Notes

Faith 250 American Scripture

• Faith 250 as a response to political despair and a way for clergy to exercise agency
• Four core American texts explored as shared scripture across faiths
• Intent to counter politicization of the 250th anniversary through spiritual depth
• Multi-faith relationships grounding the initiative in shared civic and moral concern
• Emphasis on clergy as conveners of spiritually safe, local containers for reading
• The Declaration, New Colossus, Frederick Douglass, and America the Beautiful as "scriptural" portals to civic meaning
• "American scripture" as a means of naming shared identity and shared community

Jewish Formation and Torah

• Childhood shaped by nature, wonder, and ethical awareness rather than synagogue life
• Early encounters with the Everglades as formative experiences of spirit and awe
• Discovery of Torah study as a young adult across Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform settings
• Epistemic humility as a defining mark of Jewish study practice
• Pursuit of truth understood through the "through a glass darkly" frame of Moses
• Torah received "through the hand of Moses" as mediating truth and mystery
• Chevruta (paired study) as the engine of discovery, disagreement, and meaning

Pastoral Life and Congregational Meaning

• Surprised by the depth of pastoral work: weddings, funerals, life-cycle passages
• Intimacy of congregational leadership as a source of meaning rather than tedium
• Congregational relationships forming an existential and vocational anchor
• The role of community support during family medical crises
• How decades-long pastoral presence shapes shared covenantal life
• Teaching 12- and 13-year-olds to encounter the text as spiritual practice
• The power of intergenerational relationships in spiritual resilience

Pandemic and Spiritual Survival

• Early months of 2020 as a time of fear, isolation, and emotional strain
• Counseling families whose loved ones were dying without visitors
• Previous experience with depression creating early warning signals
• Telehealth therapy as a critical intervention
• Saturday morning Torah study on Zoom becoming the path through darkness
• Growth of the study community throughout the pandemic
• Predictable humor and shared reading as markers of communal stability

Textuality, God-Language, and Jewish Hesitations

• Jewish discomfort speaking explicitly about God for theological and cultural reasons
• Layers of humility, anti-mysticism, differentiation from Christianity, and historical experience
• Sacredness and mystery of the scroll growing in the digital age
• Physicality of the Torah scroll attracting deeper attention and reverence
• Hebrew as a source of multivalent meaning, sonic power, and spiritual resonance
• Reading together as the most common encounter with God: understanding another's soul
• Pastoral awareness of individuals' life stories shaping group study dynamics

Cross-Faith Devotion and Shared Honor

• Friendships with Muslim, Christian, and Hasidic leaders deepening spiritual insight
• Devotion in others sparking awe rather than defensiveness
• Disagreement becoming a site of connection rather than separation
• Devotion in other traditions prompting self-reflection on one's own commitments
• Stories of praying with and learning from ultra-Orthodox leaders
• Shared pursuit of truth across tradition lines as a form of civic and spiritual honor
• American religious diversity offering unprecedented exposure to sincere piety

Israel, Gaza, and American Jewish Experience

• Suffering, fear, and horror experienced by Israelis and Palestinians
• Parallel emotional and spiritual pressures faced by Jews and Muslims in America
• Concern about political manipulation of community trauma
• Generational trauma and its transmission, including Holocaust-era family stories
• Emotional resonance of global conflict in local congregational life
• Distinction and connection between geopolitical realities and American spiritual experience
• Call to honor emotional realities across neighborhoods and communities

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.