Conversing with Mark Labberton

Unity is acting together even when we don't think alike. And one of the primary aims of the American Constitution is to support a democracy of those unified in diversity. Yuval Levin joins Mark Labberton to explore the precarious state of American constitutional life and the imbalance of power between the branches of the U.S. government. Drawing from his book America's Covenant, Levin argues that the Founders designed the Constitution above all to preserve unity in a divided society. Yet today, he warns, the imbalance of power—particularly the weakness of Congress and the rise of presidential authority—threatens democratic legitimacy. In this conversation, Levin reflects on originalism, the courts, Donald Trump's expanding influence, and the dangers of both passivity and autocracy. With clarity and urgency, he calls for renewed civic engagement and for Congress to reclaim its central role.

Episode Highlights

1. "Unity doesn't mean thinking alike. Unity means acting together. And the question for a modern political society is how do we act together when we don't think alike?"
2. "The biggest problem we have is that Congress is under-active, radically under-active and has turned itself into a spectator."
3. "The president is in charge of the executive branch, but the executive branch is not in charge of the American government."
4. "I am very concerned about this kind of Caesar-ism. I think it is very dangerous."
5. "What we're seeing is constitutional creep, where the president is pushing and nobody's pushing back, and only Congress can do it."
6. "I worry a lot about Donald Trump. But the reason I worry is because Congress isn't doing its job."
7. "The politics of an autocratic state is a politics of spectators, and we just cannot become spectators."
8. "All of us will find ourselves in the minority sooner or later."

Helpful Links and Resources

• America's Covenant: The Constitution and the Path to National Unity, by Yuval Levin
• American Enterprise Institute (Find Yuval Levin's current research and publications)
• *New York Times Opinion* – Yuval Levin's columns at the New York Times

About Yuval Levin

Yuval Levin is director of Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), where he also holds the Beth and Ravenel Curry Chair in Public Policy. He is the founder and editor of National Affairs, senior editor of The New Atlantis, a contributing editor at National Review, and a contributing opinion writer at The New York Times. He is the author of several books on political theory and public policy, most recently American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation—and Could Again (Basic Books, 2024), which examines the U.S. Constitution through the lens of national unity in a divided society.

Show Notes

• Constitutional unity and division
• Yuval Levin summarizes America's Covenant as a reintroduction to the Constitution framed around the challenge of unity in diversity.
• "Unity doesn't mean thinking alike. Unity means acting together."
• The Constitution prioritizes bargaining, negotiation, and legitimacy over efficiency.
• Congress was designed as the "first branch" of government to embody pluralism and force compromise.
• The decline of Congress and rise of the presidency
• Levin argues Congress is radically under-active, ceding ground to presidents and courts.
• "The biggest problem we have is that Congress is under-active, radically under-active and has turned itself into a spectator."
• Excessive focus on the presidency erodes democratic legitimacy.
• Current frustrations stem from misunderstanding the system's design: it resists narrow majorities and forces broad coalitions.
• Courts, originalism, and the unitary executive
• Levin affirms he is an originalist: "a philosophy of judicial interpretation … a mode of self-restraint for judges."
• Supreme Court decisions in recent years repeatedly signal: "Congress, do your job."
• He outlines the unitary executive theory: the president controls the executive branch, but not the government as a whole.
• "The president is in charge of the executive branch, but the executive branch is not in charge of the American government."
• Trump's expanding power
• Levin warns of the growing push to centralize authority in the presidency.
• "I am very concerned about this kind of Caesar-ism. I think it is very dangerous."
• Trump's second term differs because restraints have vanished; his circle now encourages unrestrained executive action.
• Disruption of long-held norms has weakened trust in American institutions globally and domestically.
• Constitutional crisis vs. constitutional creep
• Levin distinguishes between "creep," "conflict," and "crisis."
• He argues the U.S. is experiencing constitutional creep: unchecked executive power without Congress pushing back.
• True crisis would involve direct defiance of the courts—something still possible but not yet realized.
• The role of citizens and civic responsibility
• Levin stresses the danger of passivity: "The politics of an autocratic state is a politics of spectators, and we just cannot become spectators."
• Citizens should keep writing to Congress, vote with clear expectations, and engage in local governance.
• State legislatures, though less visible, often function better than Congress today.
• Clear thinking itself, Levin suggests, is a moral act for a healthy republic.

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

There's no such thing as a neutral reading of the Bible. Every reading is inflected by first-person experience, cultural context, history, and more. In this episode, biblical scholars Janette Ok and Jordan J. Ryan join Mark Labberton to reflect on The New Testament in Color, a groundbreaking new biblical commentary that brings together diverse voices across racial, cultural, and social locations. They share how their own ethnic and cultural backgrounds as Asian American and Filipino Canadian readers shaped their understanding of Scripture, the importance of social location, using the creeds as guardrails for hermeneutics, and how contextual interpretation deepens biblical authority rather than diminishing it.

Episode Highlights

• "There is no such thing as a neutral reading of the Bible." —Mark Labberton
• "It really dawned on me the importance of being aware of who I am, my family background, my history in the United States, all these things." —Janette Ok
• "Filipinos I think are always sort of on the margins… trying to understand how Asian we really are or aren't." —Jordan J. Ryan
• "Objectivity is nothing more than the fruit of authentic subjectivity." —Jordan J. Ryan quoting Bernard Lonergan
• "Colorblindness is actually something that's not true… particularity is fundamental to the gospel." —Janette Ok
• "It was one of the most freeing experiences that I've had because it finally gave me permission to do the thing that I'd always wanted to do." —Jordan J. Ryan

Helpful Links and Resources

• The New Testament in Color: A Multiethnic Commentary on the New Testament (IVP Academic)

About Janette Ok

Janette Ok is associate professor of New Testament at Fuller Theological Seminary. A leading scholar in Asian American biblical interpretation, she is a co-editor of The New Testament in Color and author of Constructing Ethnic Identity in 1 Peter.

About Jordan Ryan

Jordan Ryan is associate professor of New Testament at Wheaton College and Graduate School, and author of The Role of the Synagogue in the Aims of Jesus and From the Passion to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. His research explores Acts, archaeology, and Filipino American biblical interpretation.

Show Notes

• The New Testament in color and contextual biblical Interpretation
• "There is no such thing as a neutral reading of the Bible."
• Janette's growing up in a Korean immigrant church in Detroit, carrying "the weight of assimilation."
• Asian American literature, especially Bone by Fae Myenne Ng
• Opening our eyes to the power of articulating immigrant experience
• Jordan Ryan's mixed-race Canadian upbringing—Filipino mother, white father—and early encounters with Scripture through unhoused communities.
• "Filipinos are always sort of on the margins of Asian America." —Jordan Ryan
• Contextual reading of the bible
• All readings are contextual, contrasting liberation theology, unhoused readers, and Western academic traditions
• Challenges and dangers of contextualization
• "The first danger is to think that we can remove ourselves from the work of textual interpretation."
• Social location is not an external lens but intrinsic to the gospel.
• "Objectivity is nothing more than the fruit of authentic subjectivity."
• Archaeology that informs contextual questions
• "Colorblind" readings ignore particularity and miss the incarnational nature of Scripture.
• Biblical authority and the living word
• Biblical authority as central: "It's why I teach at Wheaton College and not somewhere else."
• "When we say the Bible is the living Word of God… it means it has to speak to us today."
• Preachers already contextualize every Sunday; The New Testament in Color makes this explicit and communal
• New Testament in Color was initiated by Esau McCaulley in 2018
• Preceded by works like True to Our Native Land and Women's Bible Commentary
• Distinctive by gathering scholars from African American, Latino, Asian American, Native American, and European American backgrounds in one volume
• Goal: Embody diversity without sacrificing particularity or biblical trust.
• Commentary on Acts, including Filipino American theology and diaspora identity
• "It was one of the most freeing experiences that I've had."
• He traced themes of foreignness, colonialism, and God's care for the imprisoned in Acts
• 1 Peter and Asian American biblical interpretation, wrestling with exile, belonging, and "perpetual foreigner" stereotypes
• Home as central theological concern—"not everyone feels at home in the same way." —Janette Ok
• Editing, diversity, and reader reception
• Balancing freedom with theological boundaries rooted in the creeds
• Diversity created unevenness, but also richness and authenticity.
• "The fingerprints that make it so living." —Janette Ok
• Professors report the book resonates with students of color whose lived experiences often feel absent in traditional scholarship
• "Sometimes people don't know where to begin… I encourage my students to always consult scholars who read and look differently from themselves."

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Creativity doesn't come easy. It is often an act of resistance against chaos and other de-personalizing forces. In this episode, author Mitali Perkins joins Mark Labberton to discuss her latest book Just Making: A Guide for Compassionate Creatives. Known for her acclaimed novels for young readers—including You Bring the Distant Near and Rickshaw Girl—Perkins reflects on the creative life as both a gift and a struggle, marked by tenderness and tenacity. With candour about rejection, moments of mortification, and the relentless call to keep making, Perkins offers encouragement for artists who want their work to be both beautiful and just.

Episode Highlights

1. "I was very, very close myself to giving up on the creative life."
2. "Any time we're bringing order from chaos, there's going to be pushback—and it's diabolical pushback."
3. "Stories widened my heart, they widened my mind, they gave me a sense of calling that I was not just here for myself."
4. "We can't put on our faith like lace and bows; it has to be in the bones of the story."
5. "When I feel that embarrassment, that mortification, if I can just stay and do something physical to honour my work, goodness comes pouring back."
6. "To not write it, after hearing your passion to combat this foe of our age, would be exactly what the diabolical enemy wants us to do."

Helpful Links and Resources

• Just Making: A Guide for Compassionate Creatives by Mitali Perkins
• *You Bring the Distant Near* by Mitali Perkins (National Book Award finalist)
• Rickshaw Girl (adapted into a film)
• *Steeped in Stories: Timeless Children's Novels to Refresh Our Tired Souls* by Mitali Perkins
• The Dangerous Act of Worship by Mark Labberton
• Kiva Microloans

About Mitali Perkins

Mitali Perkins writes novels for young readers that cross borders and break down walls. Her books include You Bring the Distant Near, a National Book Award nominee; Rickshaw Girl, now a feature film; and Tiger Boy, winner of the South Asia Book Award. Born in Kolkata, India, Perkins immigrated to the United States as a child and has published with major houses including Penguin Random House, Charlesbridge, Candlewick, and Little, Brown. Her newest book for adults, Just Making: A Guide for Compassionate Creatives, encourages artists to persist with both tenderness and tenacity. She speaks widely at schools, libraries, and conferences. More at mitaliperkins.com.

Show Notes

• Perkins describes the heart of Just Making as born from nearly giving up on the creative life during the pandemic.
• Creativity, tenderness, and tenacity
• "I was very, very close myself to giving up on the creative life."
• Just Making: a survival guide for writers and artists facing rejection, discouragement, and the sense that their work doesn't matter
• The struggles of the creative life
• Perkins speaks candidly about rejection, failed manuscripts, and the long twelve-year gap between her first and second published books.
• "You end up looking at the exterior packaging—my career looks amazing on social media—but inside it's pride, vainglory, rejections, bad reviews."
• Practices such as finding "third spaces" and championing one's own work sustain her through rejection.
• Childhood, immigration, and storytelling
• Born in Kolkata, India, Perkins immigrated to New York at age seven.
• She calls herself a "feral reader," devouring fourteen hundred novels in four years as a child
• "Stories widened my heart, they widened my mind, they gave me a sense of calling that I was not just here for myself."
• Obstacles and motivation during her upbringing as the daughter of refugees
• Encountering faith through story
• Growing up in a Hindu home and finding coming to Christ in college
• Through reading the Gospels and C.S. Lewis, she encountered Jesus as "the true story behind all the stories."
• Conversion and baptism while a student at Stanford
• Writing, justice, and flourishing
• "We can't put on our faith like lace and bows; it has to be in the bones of the story."
• Fiction that tackles themes of poverty, gender, courage, and flourishing
• Justice is defined not only as righting wrongs but fostering shalom—wholeness and human flourishing.
• Publishing industry and perseverance
• Perkins recounts the twelve-year struggle to publish her second book, revising manuscripts dozens of times.
• "It was twelve years between my first book and my second book."
• Tenacity grounded in prayer and a sense of God's invitation: "I've got the heavy yoke; will you walk with me?"
• Moments of humiliation
• Perkins shares a public humiliation at a book signing where no one lined up for her book. Choosing not to leave, she pulled out her manuscript and began editing
• "When I feel that embarrassment, that mortification, if I can just stay and do something physical to honor my work, goodness comes pouring back."
• How Rickshaw Girl was published and adapted into a film
• Coaching for creatives
• Perkins counsels Mark Labberton on his unfinished book about fear
• "To not write it, after hearing your passion to combat this foe of our age, would be exactly what the diabolical enemy wants us to do."
• How to embrace imperfection and see writing as part of a larger communal conversation
• Community and the impact of children's literature
• Direct engagement with children in classrooms and libraries
• How young readers form friendships with her characters and are inspired toward justice
• How books like Rickshaw Girl and her forthcoming The Golden Necklace connect global justice issues with young readers' imaginations

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

What are the implications of Jesus's radical ethics of love and shalom? How far are Christ followers meant to go with the compassion and witness of the gospel?

Philosopher Tom Crisp (Biola University) reflects on how a powerful religious experience transformed his academic career and personal faith. Once focused on metaphysics and abstract philosophy, Crisp was confronted in 2009 by the radical compassion of Jesus in the Gospels. That moment led him toward the Catholic Worker movement, the teachings of Dorothy Day, and ultimately, deep involvement in labour and immigrant justice through Clergy and Laity United for Economic Justice (CLUE).

He describes participating in civil disobedience, forming solidarity with marginalized communities, and serving as a nonviolent presence in immigration courts where migrants face arrest and deportation. Through these stories, Crisp testifies to the cost and invitation of discipleship: following Jesus into the margins with courage, humility, and love.

Episode Highlights

• "What struck me was Jesus's deep compassion, mercy, fiery concern for people in the margins. And it came to me as deeply convicting."
• "I immersed myself in the writings of Dorothy Day… she's had an enormous influence on how I've come to think about what it would look like to be a Jesus follower in our context."
• "I was having this very powerful sense of God's presence, feeling broken by it, feeling like I'd hit a turning point in my life."
• "If Jesus really is the Jesus of the margins that I'm seeing in the Gospels, then I need to figure out how to get to the margins."
• "This isn't a matter of guilt, it's invitation… we're always being invited further in."
• "When you're with someone who's been separated from their children, when you're with someone who's shaking with fear… it's just a completely different thing."
• "So a horrific violation of human rights is happening around us in our immigration courts, and it's happening here in Orange County."
• "We are trying to be a presence of love for everybody there."

Helpful Links and Resources

• Clergy and Laity United for Economic Justice (CLUE)
• Shalom Ethics: Loving Your Neighbor as Yourself, by Thomas M. Crisp
• The Irresistible Revolution: Living as an Ordinary Radical, by Shane Claiborne

About Tom Crisp

Tom Crisp is professor of philosophy at Biola University, specializing in ethics and justice. After completing his PhD at Notre Dame, Crisp shifted his academic work toward Christian ethics following a transformative religious experience in 2009. He is a community member of the Orange County Catholic Worker and active in Clergy and Laity United for Economic Justice (CLUE), advocating for immigrant and labour rights through nonviolent action and accompaniment.

Show Notes

• Religious Experience and Transformation
• Tom Crisp recounts his 2009 religious awakening while reading the Gospels.
• "Fire—my soul is blowing apart, I need to quit my job."
• Realization of Jesus's "deep compassion, mercy, fiery concern for people in the margins."
• Movement from abstract philosophy to Neighbour Love Command.
• Catholic Worker movement and Dorothy Day
• Influence of Shane Claiborne's The Irresistible Revolution and new monastic movement.
• Encounter with Dorothy Day's writings as a model of radical discipleship.
• Involvement with the Orange County Catholic Worker community.
• Attraction to Catholicism
• Inspired by Notre Dame liturgy and Benedictine practices.
• Influenced by saints like St. Francis, Maximilian Kolbe, Oscar Romero.
• "As I spend time in Catholic spaces, I feel the presence of this cloud of witnesses."
• CLUE and Nonviolent Action
• History of CLUE: founded by Rev. James Lawson, trained in Gandhian nonviolence, connected to Martin Luther King Jr.
• Focus on labour justice and immigrant rights.
• Training in nonviolent presence, civil disobedience, and accompaniment.
• Example: shutting down LAX in a five-hundred-person protest for hotel workers.
• Court Observation and Migrant Accompaniment
• CLUE partnership with Orange County Rapid Response Network.
• ICE arrests of migrants who believed they had lawful parole status.
• "A horrific violation of human rights is happening around us in our immigration courts."
• Strategy of nonviolent presence to "dramatize bureaucratic and physical violence."
• Clergy presence offers spiritual authority and comfort.
• Judges and ICE agents sometimes allow moments of prayer or comfort before deportation.
• "We want to accompany migrants into this dark, dark space and be there as a source of comfort to them."
• Formation and Solidarity
• "When you're with someone who's been separated from their children, when you're with someone who is shaking with fear … it's just a completely different thing."
• Experience of humility, solidarity, and courage among migrants and workers.
• Philosophy, theology, and action integrated in discipleship.

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

"Habit eats willpower for breakfast." As the apostle Paul says in Romans 7, we do the evil we don't want to do, and we don't do the good we want to do. Pastor and author John Ortberg joins Mark Labberton on Conversing to discuss his latest book Steps: A Guide to Transforming Your Life When Willpower Isn't Enough. Drawing on decades of pastoral ministry, the wisdom of the Twelve Steps, and the profound influence of Dallas Willard, Ortberg explores the limits of willpower, the gift of desperation, and the hope of genuine transformation. With humour, honesty, and depth, he reflects on why human will is insufficient, why churches struggle to embody desperation, and how communities of honesty and grace can become places of real healing.

Episode Highlights

1. "Habit eats willpower for breakfast."
2. "The first step is a deeply despairing step. I can't, and it feels like hell and death—and that opens people up to God."
3. "If you have a wimpy step one, you will have wimpy steps two through twelve."
4. "Desperation really is a gift."
5. "Failure and pain so often become helps in our meeting God."

Helpful Links and Resources

• Find more from John Ortberg at becomenew.com
• John Ortberg, Steps: A Guide to Transforming Your Life When Willpower Isn't Enough
• Dallas Willard, Renovation of the Heart
• Kent Dunnington, Addiction and Virtue: Beyond the Models of Disease and Choice
• Stephen R. Haynes, Why Can't Church Be More Like an AA Meeting?

About John Ortberg

John Ortberg is a pastor, speaker, and bestselling author dedicated to spiritual formation and transformation. He served as senior pastor at Menlo Church from 2003 to 2020, and has written numerous books, including The Life You've Always Wanted and Faith & Doubt. He studied at Wheaton College and Fuller Theological Seminary and has been a trustee at Fuller. His most recent book, Steps: A Guide to Transforming Your Life When Willpower Isn't Enough, reframes the Twelve Steps as a wisdom tradition for all seeking deeper life with God.

Show Notes

• The Nature of Willpower and Habit
• John Ortberg reflects on Dallas Willard's framework for understanding persons.
• "Habit eats willpower for breakfast."
• The human will is essential, but terrifically weak when confronting sin, ego, or deep habits.
• The Gift of Desperation and the Twelve Steps
• First step: "We admitted we were powerless."
• "The first step is a deeply despairing step. I can't, and it feels like hell and death—and that opens people up to God."
• Desperation becomes a gateway to spiritual power.
• "If you have a wimpy step one, you will have wimpy steps two through twelve."
• Comparing church and AA
• Ortberg: "Desperation really is a gift."
• The church often resists being a community of desperation.
• Honesty is not the same as desperation; both are needed for transformation.
• Why AA's structure works: fellowship plus program.
• "Failure and pain so often become helps in our meeting God."
• Storytelling and Transformation
• Testimonies and stories at the center of AA's power.
• Why narrative makes meaning for human life.
• "Story is the essential unit of meaning for personhood."
• Spiritual Practices and Confession
• Step 5: "Confess to God, ourselves, and one other person the exact nature of our wrongs."
• John recalls confessing to a close friend: "John, I love you more right now than I've ever loved you before."
• The liberating power of being fully known and loved.
• Addiction, Sin, and Disease
• The debate: is addiction a disease, a habitus, or sin?
• Disease language reduces shame but risks erasing agency.
• The overlap of sin, brokenness, and habit.
• The challenge of shame, judgment, and superiority in church contexts.
• Fellowship and Program
• "If you have program but not fellowship, you're dead. If you have fellowship but not program, there is no hope."
• AA as a model for church life: communal honesty plus concrete practices.
• The gospel calls for grace-filled action, not passivity.

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Who are the black evangelicals? How has contemporary evangelicalism reckoned with racial justice? Theologian Vincent Bacote joins Mark Labberton to discuss Black + Evangelical, a new documentary exploring the in-between experience of black Christians in white evangelical spaces. Bacote—professor of theology at Wheaton College and director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics—shares his personal faith journey, early formation in the Navigators, growing racial consciousness, and decades-long engagement with questions of race, theology, and evangelical identity. Together, they work through the tensions, challenges, and possibilities for a more truthful and hopeful evangelical witness.

1. "The goal of the documentary is not to be a kind of hit piece about the evangelical movement. It's to tell the story of the church."
2. "To be for Black people is not to be against somebody else." – Tom Skinner
3. "I couldn't understand why the Bible people weren't leading the way on questions of race."
4. "Participation in evangelical spaces can't mean leaving part of yourself outside."
5. "Realism allows you to have honesty, but also remember the good news is the greatest news of all."
6. "God wants all of us—our whole selves—not a muted version."

• Black + Evangelical Documentary (Christianity Today)
• Black + Evangelical Documentary Trailer
• The Political Disciple: A Theology of Public Life by Vincent Bacote
• Reckoning with Race and Performing the Good News by Vincent Bacote
• Breaking Down Walls by Raleigh Washington & Glen Kehrein
• Tom Skinner's Urbana 1970 Address (Full Audio)
• *The Color of Compromise* by Jemar Tisby

Vincent Bacote is professor of theology at Wheaton College and director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics. He is the author of several books, including The Political Disciple: A Theology of Public Life and Reckoning with Race and Performing the Good News: In Search of a Better Evangelical Theology. His research and teaching address public theology, ethics, and the intersection of race and evangelical identity. Bacote is a widely cited commentator and a frequent voice in conversations about Christian faithfulness in public life.

• Mark Labberton welcomes Vincent Bacote, professor of theology at Wheaton College and director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics.
• Introduction to the Black + Evangelical documentary, a project Bacote helped conceive and produce.
• Bacote's upbringing at Shiloh Baptist Church of Glenarden, Maryland—unknowingly part of the Progressive National Baptist Convention.
• Conversion experience around age ten, preceded by years of genuine faith.
• College years at the Citadel; involvement in the Navigators campus ministry.
• Influence of a summer training program in Memphis focused on African American ministry.
• Early exposure to evangelical culture through radio preachers like Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley, John MacArthur, and James Dobson.
• Initial tensions over the lack of evangelical engagement on issues of race.
• Graduate studies at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School with the initial goal of becoming a pastor.
• Encounter with Raleigh Washington and Glen Kehrein's Breaking Down Walls, grounding racial reconciliation in Ephesians 2.
• Observations of the scarcity of black theologians in evangelical seminaries.
• 1993 Geneva College conference on black evangelicals—learning from leaders like Bill Pannell, Tom Skinner, Tony Evans, Carl Ellis, and Eugene Rivers.
• Writing an editorial titled "Black and Evangelical: An Uneasy Tension?" for the student paper at Trinity.
• Realization that evangelicalism is both a biblical and socio-cultural movement with contextual blind spots.
• Arrival at Wheaton College in 2000 with a focus on public theology and ethics beyond race alone.
• Genesis of the Black + Evangelical project at a 2008 Fuller Seminary gathering with Ron Potter.
• Partnership with Christianity Today and filmmaker Dan Long to shape the documentary.
• Filming over forty hours of interviews with twenty-four participants, distilled into a ninety-four-minute film.
• Mark Labberton highlights Tom Skinner's impact and his "Blackface" critique of white evangelicalism.
• Bacote reflects on his "racially optimistic" early years and growing awareness of systemic realities.
• Analysis of the Promise Keepers movement and the need for sustained relational work beyond large gatherings.
• Challenges in building genuine multiethnic churches versus surface-level diversity.
• The documentary's aim: to tell the church's story, honour lived experiences, and inspire commitment to mission.
• Bacote's "four stages" for minorities in evangelical institutions: delight, dissonance, distress, and decision.
• Emphasis on "sober hope"—honesty about pain while holding onto the good news.
• The gospel's call to bring one's full self into the life of the church.
• Closing encouragement to watch and share Black + Evangelical as a story worth hearing for the whole church.

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Conservationist and environmental advocate Ben Lowe discusses our ecological crisis, the role of Christian faith and spirituality, and how churches can respond with hope, action, and theological depth.

He joins Mark Labberton for a grounded conversation on the intersection of faith, climate change, and the church's role in ecological justice. As executive director of A Rocha USA, Lowe brings over two decades of experience in environmental biology, ethics, and faith-based conservation to explore how Christians can engage meaningfully with environmental crises. They move from scientific clarity about climate urgency to the theological blind spots that have hindered the Christian response.

Together, they explore how churches across the US and beyond are reclaiming creation care—not as a political issue, but as a form of discipleship and worship. With stories ranging from urban stream cleanups to coral reef restoration, Lowe emphasizes small, local, relational efforts that respond to God's ongoing work in the world. At the heart of the conversation lies a call to moral will, theological clarity, and faithfulness in the face of ecological grief.

Episode Highlights

"The world is good—but it's groaning."

"Small does not mean insignificant. … We have the solutions. The problem is not our technical ability—it's our moral and political will."

Learn More about A Rocha

Visit arocha.us for more information.

About Ben Lowe

Ben Lowe is executive director of A Rocha USA, a Christian conservation organization engaged in ecological discipleship, community-based restoration, and climate advocacy across the US and globally. He holds a PhD in interdisciplinary ecology from the University of Florida and a BS in environmental biology from Wheaton College (IL). Ben has spent over two decades working at the intersection of faith, science, and environmental justice, and is passionate about equipping churches to participate in God's restoration of creation.

Since his first encounter with A Rocha as a Wheaton student in 2003, Ben has served on A Rocha staff teams and boards, nationally and internationally, most recently as deputy executive director of A Rocha International. Ben's training as a scientist and a minister inform his leadership and development of A Rocha USA's national strategy and team.

Originally from Singapore, Ben was the founding national organizer of Young Evangelicals for Climate Action and has served on the boards of A Rocha USA, A Rocha International, the Au Sable Institute, and Christians for Social Action. He is the author of multiple books, and his work has been featured in media outlets including Audubon Magazine, Christianity Today, and the New York Times. He has a bachelor of science in environmental biology from Wheaton and a PhD from the University of Florida focussed on the human, religious, and ethical dimensions of environmental change and conservation. Ben is based in the warm and watery state of Florida, where he can often be found kayaking on the Indian River Lagoon.

Show Notes

• Earth Day began in 1970, a pivotal moment for environmental awareness—"That means that I was a junior in high school when the world embraced this name as a way of trying to bring attention to the whole world about environmental issues."
• Mark Labberton opens with concern for "the political moment that we're in … in the United States and in other places around the world."
• Ben Lowe introduces the biblical framing: "This world is good, but it's also groaning."

Why Climate Action Still Matters

• "We don't know where we would be, were it not for Earth Day fifty years ago."
• "The question is not whether we know what to do, but whether we're doing the right thing and we're doing enough of it."
• "It's never too late to take action and to get engaged."

Scientific Consensus and Urgency

• "The science has gotten a lot more sophisticated and a lot clearer."
• "We're not talking about hypothetical issues anymore. We're talking about issues that many, if not all of us, are tangibly experiencing now."
• "Things are moving faster, further, and at a greater scale and magnitude than we were hoping to be experiencing right now."

Oceans, Heat, and the Limits of Natural Buffers

• "The oceans are a huge gift to human society, and they have been buffering and absorbing a lot of the heat and the carbon that we've been emitting."
• "The oceans are not limitless. … We are seeing signs that the oceans are warming more than they can sustain."
• "Every year now we have these hurricanes that are huge in terms of their scale and the amount of water that they can suck up from these overheated oceans."

Practical Impact of Climate Change

• "My homeowner's insurance rates more than doubled in the last few years."
• "We're just getting all these signs coming from all of our systems that are warning us that we are on a completely unsustainable path."
• "The silver lining to us being the driver of so many of these problems is that we can also choose to be part of the solution."

Role of the Church in Ecological Transformation

• "The church can really shine a light of hope, of love of the good news that God promises for this world in the midst of all that."
• "Small does not mean insignificant."
• "We have the solutions we need. … The problem is not our technical ability, it's our moral and political will that has been lacking."

Global Clean Energy Transition

• "We are in a great transition, but that transition is happening and it's sort of unstoppable."
• "The question is how quickly will it happen and will we be able to move it forward quickly enough?"
• "Christians have a particular contribution. … We can bring the moral will to help shape the decisions."

A Rocha's Global and Local Work

• "A Rocha is a network of Christian conservation organizations in about twenty-five countries around the world."
• In Florida, "we're helping to work with local partners, universities, high schools, churches, to conserve the lagoon."
• "In Austin, Texas … we have a lot of Spanish-language programming … to help connect recent immigrants with the communities that they're living in."

Partnering with Churches for Creation Care

• "The cutting edge of what we're moving into now though is our work with churches."
• "Research … is showing that there is a shift happening with more and more Christians in churches becoming aware of the problems in God's world."
• "Now we have more and more people coming to us, so much that we're growing, but we're not growing fast enough and we have to turn some people away."

Localized Action and Practical Partnerships

• "We launched a cohort of Vineyard USA churches … to support Vineyard congregations that want to get more involved."
• "We walk them through a process of discerning … the ways that God might be inviting them to participate in what God's already doing."
• "We're working with a church on Oahu in Hawaii that bought a defunct golf course … we're working together to help restore the native habitat."

Creation Care as Worship and Witness

• "We see this as being in God's hands … and us as playing a faithful role in responding to what God is doing."
• "What would a follower of Jesus do in this situation?"
• "Everything that we do to care for creation … the offering itself is one that we direct to God as the creator."

Theological Reformation, Not Innovation

• "It's not theological change so much as it's theological reformation. This is orthodoxy."
• "We don't see this work as of our own initiative. What we see ourselves doing is responding to what God is already doing."

End Times Theology and Ecological Responsibility

• "We don't treat anything else in life that way. We don't treat our bodies that way. We don't treat our children that way."
• "It has been biblically orthodox from the very beginning to care for God's world."
• "It's not because we're Christian, it's because we've not been Christian enough."

Political Identity vs. Christian Witness

• "We see these issues first and foremost through our political lenses instead of through our theological biblical Christian lenses."
• "These issues transcend any particular political ideology or party."
• "They're moral issues, they're faith issues, they're spiritual issues, and for us, they're an integral matter of our Christian discipleship and witness."

How A Rocha Helps Churches Avoid Partisan Pitfalls

• "We try to say, all right, what does God call us to do as people, as his image bearers in the world today?"
• "Let's do a stream cleanup together."
• "You kind of learn as you go … and before you know it, you look back and you realize, oh gosh, how far I have come."

Discipleship and Environmental Stewardship

• "The longer I'm in this work, the more I'm learning how to care for creation and help others do the same."
• "The closer I grow to Christ too, and the more I find myself being conformed into what the Bible calls us to be."
• "It's not always an easy journey, but it's a really good and life-giving and sanctifying journey."

Mark's Personal Reflection: Replanting His Garden

• "It has utterly changed the way that I now look out the kitchen window."
• "Just that small change has given me a better sense of life, a better sense of creation … a better sense of the importance of having a world that you can meditate on."

Ben Lowe's Formative Experiences in Singapore and the Black Hills

• "We'd sort through the catch with them and they'd give us the things that they couldn't sell."
• "Being able to step out into a national forest and breathe the air … reminds me that … there is still so much good in this world worth protecting."

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Introducing Credible Witness, a new podcast produced by Mark Labberton and the Rethinking Church Initiative.

In this episode of Conversing, Mark features the full premiere episode of Credible Witness, and is joined by host Nikki Toyama-Szeto and historian Jemar Tisby.

Exploring how Christian witness to the gospel of Christ has become compromised—and what might restore its credibility. Reflecting on five years of candid, challenging conversation among diverse Christian leaders during the wake of George Floyd's murder and rising Christian nationalism, the three discuss the soul-searching, disillusionment, and hope that emerged.

Together, they examine the cultural fractures, theological tensions, and moral failures that have pushed many to extremes, elevating strident voices as an increased number of people to leave the church.

They articulate the mission and vision of Credible Witness, testify to a persistent hope in Jesus and the power of honest community, face painful truths, and imagine a church that more truly reflects the love, justice, and mercy of God.

Key Moments

1. "We absolutely get that… but we're still on board with Jesus. And Jesus has always been with us and hasn't left us."
2. "This isn't about leaving Jesus. This is about following Jesus."
3. "We've got a better story to tell."
4. "It was the church that was putting the church at risk."
5. "The church has a reputation in the United States… and not a good one by and large."

About the Guests

Nikki Toyama-Szeto is the host of Credible Witness, and is executive director of Christians for Social Action, equipping the church to pursue justice and follow Jesus in the tension of our times.

Jemar Tisby is the author of The Color of Compromise and How to Fight Racism, and founder of The Witness: A Black Christian Collective. He is the host of Pass the Mic.

• "This isn't about leaving Jesus. This is about following Jesus." —Jemar Tisby
• Nikki introduces Credible Witness as a space for honest stories of faith amid moral complexity and social tension
• Mark recalls the origins of the conversation in summer 2020: COVID-19, George Floyd, church division, and racial injustice
• Jemar Tisby clarifies the mission for imagining a more credible Christian witness
• Nikki reflects on trust-building in a space that welcomed "tricky truths" and honesty without pretense
• The group's five-year journey begins as a short experiment but grows into a lasting community of deep discernment
• "We weren't trying to replicate any harm." —Jemar Tisby
• The group names white Christian nationalism and silence on injustice as threats to the church's credibility
• Ephesians 2 and the power of "coming together of the unlikes" as a witness to the resurrection
• "It was the church that was putting the gospel at risk." —Mark Labberton
• Nikki explains how church neutrality began to speak volumes: "Choosing silence was actually a loud voice."
• Discussion on the failure of integrity: "Too many things in isolation" eroded credibility
• Jemar highlights story as central to public theology: "We've got a better story to tell."
• The group wrestles with algorithmic distortion and toxic digital narratives shaping Christian identity
• "Not just message, but embodiment": The church's credibility depends on lived ethics, not just theological claims
• Mark emphasizes self-examination: "Are we credible?"
• Dissonance and disagreement as gifts: "What kept people in the room was the gift of dissonance." —Nikki Toyama-Szeto
• Jemar recalls moments of tension over how to prioritize justice issues while remaining unified in Christ
• The group's diversity as a deliberate strategy: different traditions, backgrounds, and responsibilities within the church
• Nikki names divine timing: the conversation is more urgent now than when it began
• "We're not all supposed to be the same... That's how everything gets covered." —Jemar Tisby
• Mark frames the church's failure as internal implosion—not external threat
• "Why is the church seemingly so unchanged?" —Mark Labberton
• Nikki describes how marginalized voices carry wisdom for the way forward
• Jemar articulates the podcast's goal: a mirror and a window for listeners to see both themselves and the larger church
• Nikki closes with an invitation to slow down and listen generously: "Pull up a chair..."

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

In the aftermath of the devastating Eaton Canyon Fire in Altadena, California, three Pasadena community leaders—Mayra Macedo-Nolan, Pastor Kerwin Manning, and Megan Katerjian—join host Mark Labberton for a sobering and hopeful conversation on what it takes to rebuild homes, neighbourhoods, and lives. Together they discuss their personal losses, the long-term trauma facing their neighbours, the racial and economic disparities exposed by disaster, and how the church is rising to meet these challenges with grit, grace, and faith.

Their stories illuminate how a community holds fast when the media leaves, when vultures circle, and when the work is just beginning. This is a conversation about sacred presence, practical resilience, and the enduring witness of faithful service—even in the ashes.

Mayra Macedo-Nolan is executive director of the Clergy Community Coalition of Greater Pasadena

Kerwin Manning is senior pastor of Pasadena Church

Megan Katerjian is CEO of Door of Hope Ministries

Helpful Links and Resources

• Door of Hope Pasadena – Family homelessness intervention and fire assistance program
• Pasadena Church – Kerwin Manning's congregation and relief center
• Clergy Community Coalition of Greater Pasadena – Mayra Macedo-Nolan's organization supporting pastors and churches
• Isaiah 61:3 – "Beauty for ashes" verse referenced by Kerwin
• Andre Crouch – "Soon and Very Soon" – Gospel anthem of hope quoted by Pastor Kerwin

Show Notes

• CCC (Clergy Community Coalition) rapidly pivoted to virtual meetings the morning after hurricane-force winds and fire struck Altadena.
• "We moved it to virtual … and then we had no idea what was gonna happen that evening and overnight." —Mayra Macedo-Nolan
• After the fire started, fifty-six participants gathered online, including city leaders and faith-based partners, forming a core response network.
• "Everybody wanted to be together … especially in a crisis like this." —Mayra
• Pastor Kerwin and his wife Madeline evacuated with almost no notice after hearing the sheriff outside their door.
• "We, Madeline and I, like so many others, were fleeing for our lives." —Kerwin Manning
• For weeks, they didn't know whether their home was still standing; the priority became their church and community.
• "We didn't know if our home was standing … we were more concerned about our church, our community." —Kerwin
• Pasadena Church began relief work immediately—even before confirming their own housing stability.
• "This is the first interview or anything I've done online back in my home." —Kerwin
• Door of Hope's CEO evacuated with her children and lost her home; she quickly organized shelter responses for others.
• "I found out that my house had been entirely destroyed." —Megan Katerjian
• Within ten days, Door of Hope launched a formal housing assistance program for fire-affected families.
• "Door of Hope had launched what we call the Eaton Fire Housing Assistance Program." —Megan
• The CCC became a spiritual and logistical backbone for Altadena's recovery, activating two decades of community-building.
• "This was a time that it was really important for the local clergy to be in conversation with one another." —Mayra
• Pasadena Church became a distribution hub, serving as far east as any organization in the city.
• "We wore our church members out." —Kerwin
• Over two months, the church distributed daily essentials from 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m., shifting to a long-term weekly rhythm.
• "We thought we would do it for a couple of weeks … we were doing it every day … for about two months straight." —Kerwin
• "We might run out of water, we might run out of toothpaste, but we refuse to run out of smiles and kindness." —Kerwin
• Altadena's west side—long a haven for black and brown families—suffered the worst structural damage and displacement.
• "Altadena had been a haven really for black and brown families who couldn't purchase homes anywhere." —Mayra
• Many affected residents were informal renters or multigenerational households without clear legal housing claims.
• "These are the stories of people … for whom there is no path back to Altadena anytime soon." —Megan
• Eleven churches were lost or damaged, including small and under-resourced congregations still unsure about rebuilding.
• "We lost ten houses of worship, and one was partially burned … essentially eleven." —Mayra
• Local churches served both members and neighbors regardless of formal affiliation, often the first to show up with aid.
• "We don't do any of this work alone." —Megan
• CCC supports over a hundred churches across Pasadena with infrastructure, grants, emotional care, and community strategy.
• "We want them to be okay … and then as they serve their church members and the neighbors surrounding their church." —Mayra
• Door of Hope offered security deposits, rent, emergency shelter, tool replacement, and even vehicles to affected families.
• "Beauty for ashes"
• "We just have to do more of it." —Megan
• Volunteers gave out handwritten cards from kids across the country; some were shared at distribution events.
• "I've got a box full of cards from kids … just like it's going to be okay. We're praying for it." —Kerwin
• A guiding pastoral metaphor: vultures circling a wounded deer, and the need to protect the vulnerable from predation.
• "The vultures were circling … and I covered the deer … and the vultures left." —Kerwin
• "The needs have not slowed. … Finances always follow just heart and compassion and awareness." —Megan
• "You learn so much in the middle of crisis. One of the things that crisis does is it confirms character and you realize like what people are made of when you're going through something."
• "Until. Until the need is gone, until we don't have to do it anymore." —Kerwin
• The immigrant community faces a second "fire"—ICE raids and deportation threats layered atop housing loss.
• "The intersection of those … the two fires, the fire that we didn't know we were gonna have, and the fire that we knew was coming." —Mayra
• CCC pastors protested ICE actions together, maintaining peace through community presence and music.
• "The pastors were there … and then it's just … it's a sacred party." —Mayra
• Latino cultural traditions of protest, grief, and celebration shaped a healing, communal public presence.
• "We cry and we're gonna probably celebrate and eat food and dance together." —Mayra
• Local leaders are pushing back against a ten-year recovery timeline with a goal of rebuilding within three to five years.
• "We reject that. She said three to five years, that's what we're gonna push for." —Mayra
• Community grief deepened when the first burned lot was sold; hope emerged again when the first rebuilding began.
• "There they go … it's gonna start selling." / "We think there was … this collective celebration." —Mayra
• "Soon and very soon we're gonna see the King." —Kerwin
• Kerwin invoked Isaiah 61:3: "Beauty will rise" as a spiritual theme for their church's recovery ministry.
• "We believe that we're able to continue to do what we're doing knowing that, trusting that beauty's gonna rise." —Kerwin
• The phrase "Altadena is not for sale" became a rallying cry—although some elders opted to relocate for peace.
• "It's up to you. Our prayer is that more people will want to stay than leave." —Kerwin
• Ongoing challenges include zoning delays, state and county coordination issues, and political friction at the national level.
• "The church has always been a vital provider of resources, critical social services and resources in communities on an ongoing basis in normal time." —Mayra
• "The greatest sense that you get from being there is people are together. There's a sense of unity and community protection that is very palpable."
• A sacred party
• Resilience and God's presence and strength
• "It feels like our president doesn't like us … our governor … whatever they've got going on affects us." —Kerwin
• "The church … is always a vital provider … of resources, critical social services … in normal time." —Mayra

About the Guests

Mayra Macedo-Nolan is executive director of the Clergy Community Coalition of Greater Pasadena, where she leads efforts to strengthen faith-based response to systemic inequities in housing, education, and social services. Formerly on pastoral staff at Lake Avenue Church, she's spent two decades in community leadership in Pasadena and Altadena.

Pastor Kerwin Manning is senior pastor of Pasadena Church and a founding leader in the Clergy Community Coalition. A long-time advocate for youth and justice, he's served the Pasadena community with a heart for unity, compassion, and spiritual renewal.

Megan Katerjian is CEO of Door of Hope, a Pasadena-based non-profit serving homeless and at-risk families. With over twenty years in non-profit leadership, Megan is also an ordained pastor with deep roots in faith-based social services and community development.

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Are the best days of the church behind us? Or ahead? Kara Powell and Ray Chang join Mark Labberton to discuss Future-Focused Church: Reimagining Ministry to the Next Generation, co-authored with Jake Mulder. Drawing on extensive research, practical frameworks, and decades of leadership at Fuller Seminary and the TENx10 Collaboration, Powell and Chang map a path forward for the church—one rooted in relational discipleship, kingdom diversity, and tangible neighbour love. In a moment marked by disaffiliation, disillusionment, and institutional fragility, they offer a hopeful vision: churches that are brave enough to listen deeply, lead adaptively, and partner with the next generation in mission. This conversation unpacks their "Here to There" framework, the role of human agency in ecclesial change, and why honouring young people isn't pandering—it's planting seeds for the future of faith.

Episode Highlights

1. "We believe the best days of the church are ahead."
2. "Leadership begins with listening."
3. "Unless strategy emerges out of culture, or unless the culture is changed, it's really hard to lead."
4. "Everything rises when we focus on young people."
5. "Agency is the intersection of knowing, being, and doing."

Helpful Resources and Links

• Future-Focused Church by Kara Powell, Jake Mulder, and Ray Chang (InterVarsity Press)
• Fuller Youth Institute—Research and innovation for youth ministry
• TENx10 Collaboration—Movement to help faith matter more for ten million young people over ten years
• Asian American Christian Collaborative—Equipping Asian American Christians for faithful public witness
• "Churches and Change: Adaptive Leadership"—Heifetz on adaptive vs. technical change (Harvard Business Review)
• Rethinking Church in the 21st Century (Fuller Seminary)—Ongoing work in contextual theology and church innovation

About Kara Powell

Kara Powell is the chief of leadership formation at Fuller Seminary, executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute, and founder of the TENx10 Collaboration. A leading voice in youth ministry and church innovation, she is author or co-author of numerous books including Sticky Faith, Growing Young, and 3 Big Questions That Change Every Teenager. She is co-author of Future-Focused Church: Reimagining Ministry to the Next Generation.

About Ray Chang

Ray Chang is executive director of the TENx10 Collaboration and president of the Asian American Christian Collaborative. A pastor, activist, and writer, Ray's work focuses on racial justice, next-gen discipleship, and building churches that reflect the diversity of God's kingdom. He is co-author of Future-Focused Church: Reimagining Ministry to the Next Generation.

Show Notes

• Kara Powell is chief of leadership formation at Fuller Seminary and executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute
• Ray Chang is executive director of the TENx10 Collaboration and president of the Asian American Christian Collaborative
• Future-Focused Church offers a framework for adaptive change, grounded in Scripture, research, and practical leadership
• "Leadership begins with listening"—Kara shares the importance of appreciative inquiry and asking youth what matters to them
• Ray describes today's church as "a church actively trying to define and redefine itself in tumultuous and complex times"
• Simple but powerful framework: Here to There—understanding where we are and where God is calling us next
• Three checkpoints of a future-focused church: relationally discipling young people, modelling kingdom diversity, tangibly loving our neighbours
• "Everything rises when we focus on young people"—churches flourish when the next generation is centered
• Data shows only one in three senior pastors rank young people among their top five priorities
• Kara: "I wish the problem was that young people were overly prioritized—sadly, it's the opposite"
• Church innovation isn't just strategic, it's adaptive: "Culture eats strategy for breakfast."
• Ray explains why Covid exposed the difference between technical and adaptive change in the church
• Kara: "We overestimate what we can accomplish in one year and underestimate what we can do in three to five."
• Biblical foundations explored—Paul's epistles blend being and doing; Galatians 5 offers a model of fruitful action
• Human agency as divine invitation—Ray: "God invites us to partner in God's work for the flourishing of humanity"
• Kara's church story: youth sat in the front, fully engaged—"They prioritized us"
• Simple action steps from churches include showing up to youth events and publicly celebrating young people's milestones
• Mark Labberton challenges the idea of "pandering" to youth—Kara responds with data and theological reflection
• Ray reflects on the complex dynamics in immigrant and second-gen Asian American churches—"placelessness" and a search for belonging
• Importance of community: following Jesus together, across generations, cultures, and neighbourhoods
• Kara reframes giving: "Young people want to give to people and to purpose—not to perpetuate programs"
• "Culture is where values are held; unless strategy aligns with culture, it will be resisted"—Ray on organizational change
• Intergenerational relationships are critical—older adults model faith and love through presence and commitment
• The book offers not just direction but formation: process, practice, and people matter as much as the goal
• "If there's ever a moment to care about the church—and young people—it's now."

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.