What if taking Mary seriously actually deepens, rather than distracts from, devotion to Jesus? Art historian and theologian Matthew Milliner joins Mark Labberton to explore that possibility through history, theology, and the Incarnation. In a searching conversation about Mary, the meaning of Marian devotion, and the mystery of the Incarnation, they draw from early Christianity, Protestant theology, and global Christianity, as Milliner reframes Mary as a figure who deepens devotion to Christ rather than distracting from it.

"I don't see how anyone cannot understand this to be the revolution of revolutions in regards to the way that women are understood."

In this episode, they reflect on Mary as presence, witness, and theological key to understanding God's entry into human life. They discuss Marian devotion before the Reformation, excess and restraint in Christian practice, the Incarnation's implications for embodiment and gender, Protestant fears and recoveries, global Marian traditions, grief and discipleship, and why Mary ultimately points beyond herself to Christ.

Episode Highlights

• "I love Jesus so much that I love his mom too. Isn't she great too?"
• " What relationship do you have in your life where if you knew the parents of the person you're in relationship with, that would damage the relationship? … It's a sign of deep intimacy."
• "There is no Christianity without Mary. That's how God came into the world."
• "She is my tutorial in grief."
• "If it's the real Mary you're dealing with, she will point you to Jesus."
• "The answer to the abuse is to point to the best use."
• "She became a presence in the church for me."
• "I don't see how anyone cannot understand this to be the revolution of revolutions."

About Matthew Milliner

Matthew J. Milliner is Associate Professor of Art History at Wheaton College, where he specializes in early Christian, Byzantine, and global Christian art. His scholarship explores theology through visual culture, with particular attention to Mary, the Incarnation, and Christian devotion across traditions. Milliner is widely published in academic journals and popular outlets, including Comment Magazine, where he has written extensively on Marian theology and Christian art. He is a frequent speaker and lecturer on Christianity and aesthetics, and his work bridges evangelical theology, Anglican practice, and historic Christian tradition. Milliner is also known for his teaching on icons, pilgrimage, and the relationship between art, doctrine, and discipleship.

Helpful Links and Resources

• Read Matthew Milliner's column, Material Mysticism, for Comment Magazine https://comment.org/columns/material-mysticism/
• Matthew Milliner, Mother of the Lamb: The Story of a Global Icon: https://www.amazon.com/Mother-Lamb-Story-Global-Icon/dp/1506478751
• Matthew Milliner faculty page: https://www.wheaton.edu/academics/faculty/matthew-milliner/
• Stephen Shoemaker, Mary in Early Christian Faith and Devotion: https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300217216/mary-in-early-christian-faith-and-devotion/
• Rosemary Radford Ruether, Goddesses and the Divine Feminine: https://www.ucpress.edu/books/goddesses-and-the-divine-feminine/paper
• William Johnston, The Wounded Stag: https://www.harvard.com/book/9780823218394
• The Angelus Prayer (recited in this conversation): https://www.usccb.org/prayers/angelus
• Shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham: https://www.walsinghamanglican.org.uk

Show Notes

• Opening prayer invoking Mary's witness, comfort, and example as a way of drawing listeners toward Christ rather than away from him
• Evangelical identity reclaimed as gospel proclamation rather than political alignment or cultural branding
• Early Marian devotion emerging "early and often" in Christian history, grounded in Jerusalem rather than later medieval invention
• "I love Jesus so much that I love his mom too. Isn't she great too?"
• Honoring Mary without worship, framed through Revelation imagery of the bride and the people of God
• Archaeological and manuscript discoveries reshaping assumptions about early Christian practice
• Marian devotion expanding intimacy rather than competing with Christological focus
• Newman on devotion requiring excess, extravagance, and emotional overflow to be genuinely human
• "Let the Christian Church let it boil over every once in a while."
• Reformation dynamics producing extremes: feverish excess on one side and stone-cold rejection on the other
• Rosemary Radford Ruether, Goddesses and the Divine Feminine
• Pagan goddess traditions contrasted with Marian imagery and their treatment of women's bodies
• Aphrodite imagery as endorsement of male desire versus Marian imagery as reverence for God's entry into flesh
• "Find me an image of Mary that does anything close to that."
• Incarnation reshaping how Christians see the female body, sexuality, and dignity
• "This is the body God entered the world through."
• The angel Gabriel's Annunciation and Mary's consent
• Annunciation framed as consent rather than coercion, with Luke emphasizing Mary's agency
• "Nothing happens to her until she consents."
• Mary as theological answer to pornographic and exploitative religious imaginations
• "I don't see how anyone cannot understand this to be the revolution of revolutions."
• Guadalupe as evangelistic bridge for indigenous peoples pointing toward Christ without blood sacrifice
• Mary's global accessibility across Muslim, Hindu, and non-Christian contexts
• "She is a real evangelist, Mary."
• Walsingham pilgrimage as Anglican recovery of Marian devotion
• Marian attraction functioning as penumbra drawing outsiders toward Christianity
• "If it's the real Mary you're dealing with, she will point you to Jesus."
• Abuse of Marian devotion acknowledged alongside historical self-correction within Catholicism
• "The answer to the abuse is to point to the best use."
• Matthew Milliner's personal spiritual journey from childhood Catholicism through evangelical conversion
• Anti-Mary phase followed by rediscovery through art history and theology
• "She became a presence in the church for me."
• Mary understood as presence rather than abstract idea, without becoming divine
• William Johnson's, The Wounded Stag: God is beyond gender
• Devotional practice as tributary flowing into Trinitarian worship rather than replacing it
• "There is no Christianity without Mary. That's how God came into the world."
• Angelus prayer as scriptural meditation culminating in Trinitarian praise
• "Pour your grace into our hearts, O Lord."
• Psychological and spiritual healing through Marian presence without theological confusion
• Mary as guide for grief through images of sorrow and seven swords
• "She is my tutorial in grief."
• Black Madonna traditions interpreted through devotion, time, soot, and divine darkness
• Darkness as sign of overwhelming divine light rather than absence of God

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Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.