In a season of national disorientation, Mark Labberton replays a luminous conversation with Quaker writer and contemplative Parker J. Palmer, whose voice from a few years back still sounds like it was recorded this morning.

"What matters is faithfulness."

In this episode with Mark Labberton, Palmer reflects on contemplation as penetrating illusion and touching reality, and how that work shows up in vocation, suffering, and public life. Together they discuss the difference between true and false crosses, mistaking the vessel for the treasure, and why wholeness isn't perfection. They also examine the pre-political work of weaving civic community and what the church owes a fractured democracy.

Episode Highlights

"Contemplation is any way one has of penetrating illusion and touching reality."

"Wholeness does not mean perfection. It means embracing your imperfections as an integral part of who you are."

"On the other side of a gift often lies a pothole that we have to watch out for."

"Failure has always been, if I hold it properly, a profoundly contemplative moment in life."

"It was as if this cosmos cared deeply and didn't care at all."

About Parker J. Palmer

Parker J. Palmer is a writer, teacher, and activist focused on education, community, leadership, spirituality, and social change. A Quaker, he holds a PhD in sociology from UC Berkeley and is founder and senior partner emeritus of the Center for Courage & Renewal. His ten books—including The Courage to Teach, Let Your Life Speak, Healing the Heart of Democracy, and On the Brink of Everything—have sold nearly two million copies in ten languages. He has received fourteen honorary doctorates. Learn more and follow at couragerenewal.org/parker-j-palmer and parkerjpalmer.substack.com.

Helpful Links and Resources

Parker J. Palmer (Center for Courage & Renewal): https://couragerenewal.org/parker-j-palmer/

Living the Questions with Parker J. Palmer: https://parkerjpalmer.substack.com/

The Growing Edge podcast: https://www.newcomerpalmer.com/podcast

On the Brink of Everything (most recent): https://couragerenewal.org/library/on-the-brink-of-everything-grace-gravity-and-getting-old/

The Courage to Teach, 20th Anniversary Edition: https://www.amazon.com/Courage-Teach-Exploring-Landscape-Anniversary/dp/1119413044

Henri Nouwen Society: https://www.henrinouwen.org/about-henri-nouwen

Show Notes

• Replaying a conversation amid national turbulence
• Quaker writer, contemplative, activist; PhD, UC Berkeley
• Founding the Center for Courage & Renewal
• "Sage" reframed as hunger—writing born of unanswered questions
• Berkeley in the sixties; community organizing in DC
• Discovering Thomas Merton "a year after he died"
• Writing as contemplation, not downloading of ideas
• How institutions tend to squelch the contemplative impulse
• Contemplation defined by function, not technique
• "Contemplation is any way one has of penetrating illusion and touching reality."
• Maureen and her daughter—a contemplative without a cushion
• Henri Nouwen at L'Arche Daybreak—known as a fellow human
• "Failure has always been, if I hold it properly, a profoundly contemplative moment in life."
• True cross vs. false cross; culturally imposed pain
• Three deep dives into clinical depression
• "Wholeness does not mean perfection. It means embracing your imperfections as an integral part of who you are."
• Treasure in earthen vessels—protecting the vessel as sin
• Bridge-building: a Jewish chancellor calls about a "Christian book"
• Taos high desert: "It was as if this cosmos cared deeply and didn't care at all."
• Moral judgment without speaking "in the name of God"
• Pre-political work—Burke's "little platoons," Lincoln on danger from within
• Divide-and-conquer politics as betrayal of the church's calling

#ParkerPalmer #Contemplation #Quaker #Vocation #Wholeness #CivicEngagement #ConversingPodcast #MarkLabberton

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.