In this conversation, we sit down with Adam Cutler, Distinguished Designer at IBM and pioneer in human-centered AI design, to explore how generative AI is reshaping creativity, reliance, and human experience. Adam reflects on the parallels between today’s AI moment and past technology shifts—from the rise of Web 2.0 to the early days of the internet—and why we may be living through a “mini singularity.” We discuss the risks of over-reliance, the importance of intentional design, and the opportunities for AI to augment curiosity, creativity, and community.

As always, a conversation with Adam provides a thoughtful and caring view of possible futures with AI. And it's heartening to spend time with someone who is so central to the future of AI who consistenly thinks about humans first.

Adam will be speaking (again) at the Artificiality Summit in Bend, Oregon on Oct 23-25, 2025. More info: https://artificialityinstitute.org/summit

In this episode, we bring you a lecture from the Artificiality Summit in October 2024 given by Joscha Bach. Joscha is a cognitive scientist, AI researcher, and philosopher known for his work on cognitive architectures, artificial intelligence, mental representation, emotion, social modeling, multi-agent systems, and philosophy of mind. His research aims to bridge cognitive science and AI by studying how human intelligence and consciousness can be modeled computationally.

In his lecture, Joscha explores the nature of intelligence, consciousness, and reality. Drawing from philosophy, neuroscience, and artificial intelligence, Joscha examines how minds emerge, how consciousness functions as the “conductor” of our mental orchestra, and why software and self-organization may hold the key to understanding life itself. He also reflects on animism, the possibility of machine consciousness, and the cultural meaning of large language models. A provocative talk that blends science, philosophy, and speculation on the future of minds—both human and artificial.

In this conversation, we explore the shifts in human experience with Christine Rosen, senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and author of "The Extinction of Experience: Being Human in a Disembodied World." As a member of the "hybrid generation" of Gen X, Christine (like us) brings the perspective of having lived through the transition from an analog to a digital world and witnessed firsthand what we've gained and lost in the process.

Christine frames our current moment through the lens of what naturalist Robert Michael Pyle called "the extinction of experience"—the idea that when something disappears from our environment, subsequent generations don't even know to mourn its absence. Drawing on over 20 years of studying technology's impact on human behavior, she argues that we're experiencing a mass migration from direct to mediated experience, often without recognizing the qualitative differences between them.

Key themes we explore:

• The Archaeology of Lost Skills: How the abandonment of handwriting reveals the broader pattern of discarding embodied cognition—the physical practices that shape how we think, remember, and process the world around us
• Mediation as Default: Why our increasing reliance on screens to understand experience is fundamentally different from direct engagement, and how this shift affects our ability to read emotions, tolerate friction, and navigate uncomfortable social situations
• The Machine Logic of Relationships: How technology companies treat our emotions "like the law used to treat wives as property"—as something to be controlled, optimized, and made efficient rather than experienced in their full complexity
• Embodied Resistance: Why skills like cursive handwriting, face-to-face conversation, and the ability to sit with uncomfortable emotions aren't nostalgic indulgences but essential human capacities that require active preservation
• The Keyboard Metaphor: How our technological interfaces—with their control buttons, delete keys, and escape commands—are reshaping our expectations for human relationships and emotional experiences

Christine challenges the Silicon Valley orthodoxy that frames every technological advancement as inevitable progress, instead advocating for what she calls "defending the human." This isn't a Luddite rejection of technology but a call for conscious choice about what we preserve, what we abandon, and what we allow machines to optimize out of existence.

The conversation reveals how seemingly small decisions—choosing to handwrite a letter, putting phones in the center of the table during dinner, or learning to read cursive—become acts of resistance against a broader cultural shift toward treating humans as inefficient machines in need of optimization. As Christine observes, we're creating a world where the people designing our technological future live with "human nannies and human tutors and human massage therapists" while prescribing AI substitutes for everyone else.

What emerges is both a warning and a manifesto: that preserving human experience requires actively choosing friction, inefficiency, and the irreducible messiness of being embodied creatures in a physical world. Christine's work serves as an essential field guide for navigating the tension between technological capability and human flourishing—showing us how to embrace useful innovations while defending the experiences that make us most fully human.

About Christine Rosen: Christine Rosen is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, where she focuses on the intersection of technology, culture, and society. Previously the managing editor of The New Republic and founding editor of The Hedgehog Review, her writing has appeared in The Atlantic, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and numerous other publications. "The Extinction of Experience" represents over two decades of research into how digital technologies are reshaping human behavior and social relationships.

Join Beth Rudden at the Artificiality Summit in Bend, Oregon—October 23-25, 2025—to imagine a meaningful life with synthetic intelligence for me, we and us. Learn more here: www.artificialityinstitute.org/summit

In this thought-provoking conversation, we explore the intersection of archaeological thinking and artificial intelligence with Beth Rudden, former IBM Distinguished Engineer and CEO of Bast AI. Beth brings a unique interdisciplinary perspective—combining her training as an archaeologist with over 20 years of enterprise AI experience—to challenge fundamental assumptions about how we build and deploy artificial intelligence systems.

Beth describes her work as creating "the trust layer for civilization," arguing that current AI systems reflect what Hannah Arendt called the "banality of evil"—not malicious intent, but thoughtlessness embedded at scale. As she puts it, "AI is an excavation tool, not a villain," surfacing patterns and biases that humanity has already normalized in our data and language.

Key themes we explore:

• Archaeological AI: How treating AI as an excavation tool reveals embedded human thoughtlessness, and why scraping random internet data fundamentally misunderstands the nature of knowledge and context
• Ontological Scaffolding: Beth's approach to building AI systems using formal knowledge graphs and ontologies—giving AI the scaffolding to understand context rather than relying on statistical pattern matching divorced from meaning
• Data Sovereignty in Healthcare: A detailed exploration of Bast AI's platform for explainable healthcare AI, where patients control their data and can trace every decision back to its source—from emergency logistics to clinical communication
• The Economics of Expertise: Moving beyond the "humans as resources" paradigm to imagine economic models that compete to support and amplify human expertise rather than eliminate it
• Embodied Knowledge and Community: Why certain forms of knowledge—surgical skill, caregiving, craftsmanship—are irreducibly embodied, and how AI should scale this expertise rather than replace it
• Hopeful Rage: Beth's vision for reclaiming humanist spaces and community healing as essential infrastructure for navigating technological transformation

Beth challenges the dominant narrative that AI will simply replace human workers, instead proposing systems designed to "augment and amplify human expertise." Her work at Bast AI demonstrates how explainable AI can maintain full provenance and transparency while reducing cognitive load—allowing healthcare providers to spend more time truly listening to patients rather than wrestling with bureaucratic systems.

The conversation reveals how archaeological thinking—with its attention to context, layers of meaning, and long-term patterns—offers essential insights for building trustworthy AI systems. As Beth notes, "You can fake reading. You cannot fake swimming"—certain forms of embodied knowledge remain irreplaceable and should be the foundation for human-AI collaboration.

About Beth Rudden: Beth Rudden is CEO and Chairwoman of Bast AI, building explainable artificial intelligence systems with full provenance and data sovereignty. A former IBM Distinguished Engineer and Chief Data Officer, she's been recognized as one of the 100 most brilliant leaders in AI Ethics. With her background spanning archaeology, cognitive science, and decades of enterprise AI development, Beth offers a grounded perspective on technology that serves human flourishing rather than replacing it.

This interview was recorded as part of the lead-up to the Artificiality Summit 2025 (October 23-25 in Bend, Oregon), where Beth will be speaking about the future of trustworthy AI.

At the Artificiality Summit in October 2024, Steve Sloman, professor at Brown University and author of The Knowledge Illusion and The Cost of Conviction, catalyzed a conversation about how we perceive knowledge in ourselves, others, and now in machines. What happens when our collective knowledge includes a community of machines? Steve challenged us to think about the dynamics of knowledge and understanding in an AI-driven world, about the evolving landscape of narratives, and ask the question can AI make us believe in ways that humans make us believe? What would it take for AI to construct a compelling ideology and belief system that humans would want to follow?

Bio: Steven Sloman has taught at Brown since 1992. He studies higher-level cognition. He is a Fellow of the Cognitive Science Society, the Society of Experimental Psychologists, the American Psychological Society, the Eastern Psychological Association, and the Psychonomic Society. Along with scientific papers and editorials, his published work includes a 2005 book Causal Models: How We Think about the World and Its Alternatives, a 2017 book The Knowledge Illusion: Why We Never Think Alone co-authored with Phil Fernbach, and the forthcoming Righteousness: How Humans Decide from MIT Press. He has been Editor-in-Chief of the journal Cognition, Chair of the Brown University faculty, and created Brown’s concentration in Behavioral Decision Sciences.

At the Artificiality Summit 2024, Jamer Hunt, professor at the Parsons School of Design and author of Not to Scale, catalyzed our opening discussion on the concept of scale. This session explored how different scales—whether individual, organizational, community, societal, or even temporal—shape our perspectives and influence the design of AI systems. By examining the impact of scale on context and constraints, Jamer guided us to a clearer understanding of the appropriate levels at which we can envision and build a hopeful future with AI. This interactive session set the stage for a thought-provoking conference.

Bio: Jamer Hunt collaboratively designs open and adaptable frameworks for participation that respond to emergent cultural conditions—in education, organizations, exhibitions, and for the public. He is the Vice Provost for Transdisciplinary Initiatives at The New School (2016-present), where he was founding director of the graduate program in Transdisciplinary Design at Parsons School of Design (2009-2015). He is the author of Not to Scale: How the Small Becomes Large, the Large Becomes Unthinkable, and the Unthinkable Becomes Possible (Grand Central Publishing, March 2020), a book that repositions scale as a practice-based framework for analyzing broken systems and navigating complexity. He has published over twenty articles on the poetics and politics of design, including for Fast Company and the Huffington Post, and he is co-author, with Meredith Davis, of Visual Communication Design (Bloomsbury, 2017).

In this conversation, we explore AI bias, transformative justice, and the future of technology with Dr. Avriel Epps, computational social scientist, Civic Science Postdoctoral Fellow at Cornell University's CATLab, and co-founder of AI for Abolition.

What makes this conversation unique is how it begins with Avriel's recently published children's book, A Kids Book About AI Bias (Penguin Random House), designed for ages 5-9. As an accomplished researcher with a PhD from Harvard and expertise in how algorithmic systems impact identity development, Avriel has taken on the remarkable challenge of translating complex technical concepts about AI bias into accessible language for the youngest learners.

Key themes we explore:

- The Translation Challenge: How to distill graduate-level research on algorithmic bias into concepts a six-year-old can understand—and why kids' unfiltered responses to AI bias reveal truths adults often struggle to articulate

- Critical Digital Literacy: Why building awareness of AI bias early can serve as a protective mechanism for young people who will be most vulnerable to these systems

- AI for Abolition: Avriel's nonprofit work building community power around AI, including developing open-source tools like "Repair" for transformative and restorative justice practitioners

- The Incentive Problem: Why the fundamental issue isn't the technology itself, but the economic structures driving AI development—and how communities might reclaim agency over systems built from their own data

- Generational Perspectives: How different generations approach digital activism, from Gen Z's innovative but potentially ephemeral protest methods to what Gen Alpha might bring to technological resistance

Throughout our conversation, Avriel demonstrates how critical analysis of technology can coexist with practical hope. Her work embodies the belief that while AI currently reinforces existing inequalities, it doesn't have to—if we can change who controls its development and deployment.

The conversation concludes with Avriel's ongoing research into how algorithmic systems shaped public discourse around major social and political events, and their vision for "small tech" solutions that serve communities rather than extracting from them.

For anyone interested in AI ethics, youth development, or the intersection of technology and social justice, this conversation offers both rigorous analysis and genuine optimism about what's possible when we center equity in technological development.

About Dr. Avriel Epps:

Dr. Avriel Epps (she/they) is a computational social scientist and a Civic Science Postdoctoral Fellow at the Cornell University CATLab. She completed her Ph.D. at Harvard University in Education with a concentration in Human Development. She also holds an S.M. in Data Science from Harvard’s School of Engineering and Applied Sciences and a B.A. in Communication Studies from UCLA.

Previously a Ford Foundation predoctoral fellow, Avriel is currently a Fellow at The National Center on Race and Digital Justice, a Roddenberry Fellow, and a Public Voices Fellow on Technology in the Public Interest with the Op-Ed Project in partnership with the MacArthur Foundation.

Avriel is also the co-founder of AI4Abolition, a community organization dedicated to increasing AI literacy in marginalized communities and building community power with and around data-driven technologies. Avriel has been invited to speak at various venues including tech giants like Google and TikTok, and for The U.S. Courts, focusing on algorithmic bias and fairness.

In the Fall of 2025, she will begin her tenure as Assistant Professor of Fair and Responsible Data Science at Rutgers University.

Links:- Dr. Epps' official website: https://www.avrielepps.com

- AI for Abolition: https://www.ai4.org

- A Kids Book About AI Bias details: https://www.avrielepps.com/book

In this wide-ranging conversation, we explore the implications of planetary-scale computation with Benjamin Bratton, Director of the Antikythera program at the Berggruen Institute and Professor at UC San Diego. Benjamin describes his interdisciplinary work as appearing like a "platypus" to others—an odd creature combining seemingly incompatible parts that somehow works as a coherent whole.

At the heart of our discussion is Benjamin's framework for understanding how computational technology literally evolves, not metaphorically but through the same mechanisms that drive biological evolution: scaffolding, symbiogenesis, niche construction, and what he calls "allopoiesis"—the process by which organisms transform their external environment to capture more energy and information.

Key themes we explore:

• Computational Evolution: How artificial computation has become the primary mechanism for human "allopoietic virtuosity"—our ability to reshape our environment to sustain larger populations
• The Embodiment Question: Moving beyond anthropomorphic assumptions about AI embodiment to imagine synthetic intelligence with radically different spatial capabilities and sensory arrangements
• Agentic Multiplication: How the explosion of AI agents (potentially reaching hundreds of billions) will fundamentally alter human agency and subjectivity, creating "parasocial relationships with ourselves"
• Planetary Intelligence: Understanding Earth itself as having evolved a computational sensory layer through satellites, fiber optic networks, and distributed sensing systems
• The Paradox of Intelligence: Whether complex intelligence is ultimately evolutionarily adaptive, given that our computational enlightenment has revealed our own role in potentially destroying the substrate we depend on

Benjamin challenges us to think beyond conventional categories of life, intelligence, and technology, arguing that these distinctions are converging into something more fundamental. As he puts it: "Agency precedes subjectivity"—we've been transforming our world at terraforming scales long before we were conscious of doing so.

The conversation culminates in what Benjamin calls "the paradox of intelligence": What are the preconditions necessary to ensure that complex intelligence remains evolutionarily adaptive rather than self-destructive? As he notes, we became aware of our terraforming-scale agency precisely at the moment we discovered it might be destroying the substrate we depend on. It's a question that becomes increasingly urgent as we stand at the threshold of what could be either a viable planetary civilization or civilizational collapse—what Benjamin sees as requiring us to fundamentally rethink "what planetary scale computation is for."

About Benjamin Bratton: Benjamin Bratton is a philosopher of technology, Professor of Philosophy of Technology and Speculative Design at UC San Diego, and Director of Antikythera, a think tank researching planetary computation at the Berggruen Institute. Beginning in 2024, he also serves as Visiting Faculty Researcher at Google's Paradigms of Intelligence group, conducting fundamental research on the artificialization of intelligence.

His influential book The Stack: On Software and Sovereignty (MIT Press, 2015) develops a comprehensive framework for understanding planetary computation through six modular layers: Earth, Cloud, City, Address, Interface, and User. Other recent works include Accept All Cookies (Berggruen Press), written in conjunction with his co-curation of "The Next Earth: Computation, Crisis, Cosmology" at the 2025 Venice Architecture Biennale, and The Terraforming (Strelka), a manifesto arguing for embracing anthropogenic artificiality to compose a planet sustaining diverse life.

In this episode, we welcome David Wolpert, a Professor at the Santa Fe Institute renowned for his groundbreaking work across multiple disciplines—from physics and computer science to game theory and complexity.

* Note: If you enjoy our podcast conversations, please join us for the Artificiality Summit on October 23-25 in Bend, Oregon for many more in person conversations like these! Learn more about the Summit at www.artificiality.world/summit.

We reached out to David to explore the mathematics of meaning—a concept that's becoming crucial as we live more deeply with artificial intelligences. If machines can hold their own mathematical understanding of meaning, how does that reshape our interactions, our shared reality, and even what it means to be human?

David takes us on a journey through his paper "Semantic Information, Autonomous Agency and Non-Equilibrium Statistical Physics," co-authored with Artemy Kolchinsky. While mathematically rigorous in its foundation, our conversation explores these complex ideas in accessible terms.

At the core of our discussion is a novel framework for understanding meaning itself—not just as a philosophical concept, but as something that can be mathematically formalized. David explains how we can move beyond Claude Shannon's syntactic information theory (which focuses on the transmission of bits) to a deeper understanding of semantic information (what those bits actually mean to an agent).

Drawing from Judea Pearl's work on causality, Schrödinger's insights on life, and stochastic thermodynamics, David presents a unified framework where meaning emerges naturally from an agent's drive to persist into the future. This approach provides a mathematical basis for understanding what makes certain information meaningful to living systems—from humans to single cells.

Our conversation ventures into:

• How AI might help us understand meaning in ways we cannot perceive ourselves
• What a mathematically rigorous definition of meaning could mean for AI alignment
• How contexts shape our understanding of what's meaningful
• The distinction between causal information and mere correlation

We finish by talking about David's current work on a potentially concerning horizon: how distributed AI systems interacting through smart contracts could create scenarios beyond our mathematical ability to predict—a "distributed singularity" that might emerge in as little as five years. We wrote about this work here.

For anyone interested in artificial intelligence, complexity science, or the fundamental nature of meaning itself, this conversation offers rich insights from one of today's most innovative interdisciplinary thinkers.

About David Wolpert:
David Wolpert is a Professor at the Santa Fe Institute and one of the modern era's true polymaths. He received his PhD in physics from UC Santa Barbara but has made seminal contributions across numerous fields. His research spans machine learning (where he formulated the "No Free Lunch" theorems), statistical physics, game theory, distributed intelligence, and the foundations of inference and computation. Before joining SFI, Wolpert held positions at NASA, Stanford, and the Santa Fe Institute as a professor. His work consistently bridges disciplinary boundaries to address fundamental questions about complex systems, computation, and the nature of intelligence.

Thanks again to Jonathan Coulton for our music.

In this remarkable conversation, Michael Levin (Tufts University) and Blaise Agüera y Arcas (Google) examine what happens when biology and computation collide at their foundations. Their recent papers—arriving simultaneously yet from distinct intellectual traditions—illuminate how simple rules generate complex behaviors that challenge our understanding of life, intelligence, and agency.

Michael’s "Self-Sorting Algorithm" reveals how minimal computational models demonstrate unexpected problem-solving abilities resembling basal intelligence—where just six lines of deterministic code exhibit dynamic adaptability we typically associate with living systems. Meanwhile, Blaise's "Computational Life" investigates how self-replicating programs emerge spontaneously from random interactions in digital environments, evolving complexity without explicit design or guidance.

Their parallel explorations suggest a common thread: information processing underlies both biological and computational systems, forming an endless cycle where information → computation → agency → intelligence → information. This cyclical relationship transcends the traditional boundaries between natural and artificial systems.

The conversation unfolds around several interwoven questions:

- How does genuine agency emerge from simple rule-following components?

- Why might intelligence be more fundamental than life itself?

- How do we recognize cognition in systems that operate unlike human intelligence?

- What constitutes the difference between patterns and the physical substrates expressing them?

- How might symbiosis between humans and synthetic intelligence reshape both?

Perhaps most striking is their shared insight that we may already be surrounded by forms of intelligence we're fundamentally blind to—our inherent biases limiting our ability to recognize cognition that doesn't mirror our own. As Michael notes, "We have a lot of mind blindness based on our evolutionary firmware."

The timing of their complementary work isn't mere coincidence but reflects a cultural inflection point where our understanding of intelligence is expanding beyond anthropocentric models. Their dialogue offers a conceptual framework for navigating a future where the boundaries between biological and synthetic intelligence continue to dissolve, not as opposing forces but as variations on a universal principle of information processing across different substrates.

For anyone interested in the philosophical and practical implications of emergent intelligence—whether in cells, code, or consciousness—this conversation provides intellectual tools for understanding the transformed relationship between humans and technology that lies ahead.

Links:

• Our article on these two papers⁠
• Michael Levin’s Self-Sorting Algorithm
• Blaise Agüera y Arcas’s Computational Life

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Thanks again to Jonathan Coulton for our music.