Hermann and John discuss the question of bucks and where they end up stopping. The Treasury warns that bucks are running out and labour leaders are not happy. When it comes to accountability and where the buck must stop, Chapter 9 entities are coming under scrutiny as Busi Mkhwebane is kicked out of office. Finally, the chat turns to why symbolism and unity matter as President Ramaphosa offers military ceremony and honours for the funeral of Mangosuthu Buthelezi