Michael McRay welcomes Karla McLaren, award-winning author and emotional researcher whose work has fundamentally reshaped how many understand inner life and emotional intelligence. Karla shares how her journey into emotions began not as academic pursuit but as survival. When severe childhood abuse left her with intense emotions that no one around her would acknowledge or discuss, Karla was forced to decode the language of emotions on her own. This conversation challenges fundamental assumptions about emotions, particularly the myth of "positive" versus "negative" feelings. They explore how gender stereotypes allow men anger but punish them for it, while women can express sadness but face consequences for that too. The discussion reveals how most people can instantly recall emotion-shaming messages but struggle to remember any emotion-welcoming ones, highlighting our culture's fundamental discomfort with feelings. In this episode, they also discuss:

• How Karla learned to study emotions like a language, observing patterns across humans and animals to understand what triggers each emotion and how beings respond
• Why the categories of "positive" and "negative" emotions miss the point
• The critical distinction between healthy shame that arises internally to maintain our values versus toxic shame imposed from outside that creates impossible standards
• How anxiety combines with panic in "panxiety" during high-stress situations

Coming Up Soon

• Part two with Karla McLaren, researcher and author of "The Art of Empathy" and "The Language of Emotions"
• STORY 2025 - October 9th and 10th in Nashville, TN at the Schermerhorn (use code PODCAST100 for $100 your ticket)
• Experiential Narrative Practice certification training - October 6th-8th
• Michael's book "The Wild Way: Navigating the Space Between the Old Story and the New" releasing in October

Resources Mentioned

• Karla McLaren
• Embracing Anxiety, The Art of Empathy and The Language of Emotions
• Empathy Academy
• Enjoying these conversations? Join The Circle!

In preparation for his upcoming two-part conversation with emotional researcher and author Karla McLaren, Michael McRay explores why emotions are the fundamental architecture of all storytelling. Drawing from his work with David Hutchins in the Storytelling Leader program, Michael addresses the common pitfall of leaders who shy away from emotion in their stories, mistakenly believing that emotional storytelling means crying in front of their teams. Michael shares how Karla's work revolutionized his understanding that every emotion exists because we need it - fear as a signal, sadness as a release, anger as an alarm, and shame as an alignment check. He challenges the common emotional trinity of "happy, mad, and sad" and advocates for emotional fluency as both a survival skill and essential component of narrative intelligence. In this episode, he also discusses:

• How emotion serves as the GPS of narrative, telling us where we are in a story and what matters most
• The revolutionary concept that there are no positive or negative emotions
• Why viewing emotions as trustworthy guides instead of obstacles to overcome changes how we navigate the narratives of our lives
• How emotional language reveals the invisible threads that connect events into stories we can feel and relate to

Coming Up Soon

• A two-part conversation with Karla McLaren, researcher and author of "The Art of Empathy" and "The Language of Emotions"
• STORY 2025 - October 9th and 10th in Nashville, TN at the Schermerhorn (use code PODCAST100 for $100 your ticket)
• Experiential Narrative Practice certification training - October 6th-8th
• Michael's book "The Wild Way: Navigating the Space Between the Old Story and the New" releasing in October

Resources Mentioned

• The Storytelling Leader
• Join The Circle

In today's episode, Michael McRay and Harris III dive deep into how we define success and failure, exploring whether our culture's focus on mental health has inadvertently reduced our resilience. Their conversation examines the pendulum swing from necessary trauma awareness to potentially over-labeling every difficulty as trauma, and how this impacts our ability to navigate the inevitable failures that come with building a business or pursuing meaningful goals. Harris shares insights from his work with purpose-driven entrepreneurs who often struggle when their well-intentioned efforts don't yield immediate results, while Michael reflects on Jordan Geary's concept of "failure as origin story." Drawing from Michael's upcoming book "The Wild Way," they explore how success might be better defined as "any action in service of the story you want to live" rather than arrival at predetermined destinations. In this episode, they also discuss:

• Why increased mental health awareness may be unintentionally reducing our capacity to navigate ordinary challenges and setbacks
• How redefining success as maintaining "integrity of direction" rather than perfect arrival can transform our relationship with both achievement and setbacks
• Why the journey toward goals creates the character and capacity needed to handle the responsibility that comes with achieving them
• The distinction between nurturing children and affirming everything they think or feel

Coming Up Soon

• STORY 2025 - Oct. 9th and 10th in Nashville, TN at the Schermerhorn (use code PODCAST100 for $100 your ticket)
• Experiential Narrative Practice certification training - October 6th-8th
• Michael's book "The Wild Way: Navigating the Space Between the Old Story and the New" releasing in October

Resources Mentioned

• Jordan Geary
• @TheJordanGeary on YouTube and Instagram
• Becoming Restoried
• Join The Circle

This week, Michael McRay sits down with Jordan Geary, Emmy Award-winning creative producer and executive at Sesame Workshop who has spent over 20 years crafting stories for children and families through beloved shows like Sesame Street's Mecha Builders, Ghostwriter, and Helpsters. After ten years at Sesame, Jordan has discovered his new mission: helping people shift their perspective from feeling like extras in their own lives to recognizing themselves as the heroes of their personal stories. This conversation explores how children's content teaches us about the power of personal stakes in storytelling, why kids are far smarter than adults give them credit for, and how the future of media will continue moving toward giving audiences more agency and curation. In this episode, they also discuss:

• How the best stories focus on personal stakes rather than world-ending scenarios
• Why the most anticipated achievements often matter less than the relationships and people who witness them with us
• How rejection and failure can reveal what we must accomplish in our lives versus what we simply want to achieve
• How simple acts of play can restore the creative joy that adult seriousness often suppresses

Coming Up Soon

• STORY 2025 - Oct. 9th and 10th in Nashville, TN at the Schermerhorn (use code PODCAST100 for $100 your ticket)

Resources Mentioned

• Jordan Geary
• @TheJordanGeary on YouTube and Instagram
• Becoming Restoried
• Join The Circle

Michael McRay reflects on the profound idea that "self-authorship is a sacred act" and explores what it means to move from simply telling stories to becoming better stories. Drawing from his own experience growing up in the church, Michael examines how so many of us have lived inside stories written by others - whether by religious institutions, cultural systems, or societal expectations. He shares his personal journey of recognizing that his sensitivity wasn't a weakness but a signal that the internalized stories weren't the whole truth. This solo episode is preparation for his upcoming conversation with Emmy-winning producer Jordan Geary, who has spent decades creating transformative stories for children and families through shows like Sesame Street. Michael introduces his framework of four limiting stories - self-doubt, victim, self-defeating, and avoidance - and explains how the goal isn't to delete painful narratives but to integrate them into a fifth story that transforms pain into purpose. In this episode, he also discusses:

• Why recovering from systems that diminish voices requires redefining our understanding of wisdom and worth
• The distinction between becoming better storytellers versus becoming better stories ourselves
• How sensitivity and being "too much" can serve as signals that we're living someone else's script rather than our own authentic narrative
• Why storytelling becomes one of the most radical acts of emotional resilience when we claim our pain through narration

Coming Up Soon

• Conversation with Jordan Geary, Emmy-winning creative producer
• STORY 2025 - Oct. 9th and 10th in Nashville, TN at the Schermerhorn (use code PODCAST100 for $100 your ticket)

Resources Mentioned

• Becoming Restoried
• Join The Circle
• Applied Narrative Intelligence Certification

Michael McRay reconnects with Harris III to unpack the conversation with Pádraig Ó Tuama and explore the broader implications of moving from an information age to a wisdom based economy. They dive into how artificial intelligence is making information abundant and cheap, while wisdom becomes increasingly rare and valuable. Harris argues that as AI makes it harder to trust anything we see on screens, people will crave authentic, in-person human experiences - exactly the kind that storytelling provides. Their conversation examines empathy as a crucial component of narrative intelligence, but they also explore its shadow side, questioning whether our culture's elevation of emotions above all else might actually hinder productive action. In this episode, they also discuss:

• How the shift from knowledge-based to wisdom-based economies makes storytelling an essential future-proofing skill
• Why artificial intelligence will increase demand for authentic human connection and face-to-face storytelling experiences
• The distinction between emotions being "true" but not always "real"
• How empathy can become a way to bypass our own emotional experiences rather than enhance our capacity for genuine connection

Coming Up Soon

• STORY 2025 - Oct. 9th and 10th in Nashville, TN at the Schermerhorn (use code PODCAST100 for $100 your ticket)

Resources Mentioned

• Pádraig Ó Tuama
• Tenx9 Storytelling Community
• Join The Circle
• Applied Narrative Intelligence Certification

Michael McRay sits down with his longtime friend Pádraig Ó Tuama, the Irish poet, theologian, conflict mediator, and storyteller who has profoundly shaped Michael's approach to narrative intelligence over their decade-long friendship. Their rich conversation explores the delicate balance between fostering empathy through story while recognizing that mandatory empathy rarely works. Pádraig shares how his work in communities with people from both sides of the Irish border taught him that storytelling isn't inherently good - it's power that can either liberate or control. He also reflects on his years leading Ireland's oldest peace and reconciliation organization, and discusses the origins of Tenx9, the community storytelling night he co-founded in Belfast. In this episode, they also discuss:

• How stories reveal hidden layers and deeper truths when we resist the urge to explain their meaning
• Why "some people's theories are other people's traumas" serves as a reminder that our ideas always land somewhere on someone's body
• The recognition that most people do what seems reasonable to them at the time, and how this perspective can foster empathy
• How "the author of the story cannot control a story's power to reveal" 
  • Terrence Tilley

Coming Up Soon

• STORY 2025 - Oct. 9th and 10th in Nashville, TN at the Schermerhorn (use code PODCAST100 for $100 your ticket!)

Resources Mentioned

• Pádraig Ó Tuama
  • Specifically mentioned In the Shelter: Finding a Home in the World
• Poetry Unbound Podcast (with On Being Studios)
• Tenx9 Storytelling Community
• Join The Circle
• Applied Narrative Intelligence Certification

This week, Michael McRay prepares listeners for his upcoming conversation with Pádraig Ó Tuama, the Irish poet, theologian, conflict mediator, and storyteller who has profoundly shaped Michael's approach to story work over their long friendship. This episode introduces the concept of narrative humility - the practice of remembering that no matter how good a story is (even your own) it doesn't tell the whole truth. Michael explores how our impulse to quickly moralize stories or force neat conclusions actually limits their transformative power. Through examples ranging from a retreat participant's mountain rescue story to the tragic tale of physician Ignaz Semmelweis, Michael demonstrates how our attachment to certain narratives can blind us to deeper truths and alternative perspectives. In this episode, he also discusses:

• How narrative humility differs from narrative intelligence, and why both are essential for transformative storytelling
• The power of asking "what must the story be that would make this behavior feel reasonable?" when facing conflict or confusion
• Why treating stories as windows rather than weapons allows them to do their deepest work of transformation
• How letting stories breathe without interpretation allows them to uncover riches we never saw before

Coming Up Soon

• Tune in next week as Pádraig Ó Tuama joins the storyOS podcast
• STORY 2025 - Oct. 9th and 10th in Nashville, TN at the Schermerhorn (use code PODCAST100 for $100 your ticket!)

Resources Mentioned

• Becoming Restoried
• Join The Circle
• Applied Narrative Intelligence Certification
• Tenx9 Storytelling Community

To unpack the incredible conversation with researcher Ben Rogers about his groundbreaking research on the hero's journey framework, Harris III rejoins Michael McRay. They explore how understanding our lives as unfolding stories, rather than just random events, has implications for reducing anxiety, increasing contentment, and building resilience. Michael and Harris examine about how Ben's research validates what they've long believed: that the stories we tell ourselves fundamentally shape our physiology, our choices, and our capacity for growth. In this episode, they also discuss:

• How redemptive versus contaminated narratives determine our capacity for leadership, meaningful relationships, and overall flourishing
• Why narrative agency is always an option, even when life feels completely out of control
• The connection between cynicism and fear
• How simple language shifts like adding "yet" to our self-talk can transform contaminated narratives into redemptive ones

Coming Up Soon

• STORY 2025 - Oct. 9th and 10th in Nashville, TN at the Schermerhorn

Resources Mentioned

• Dr. Ben Rogers: Hero's Journey Assessment
• Becoming Restoried
• Join The Circle
• Applied Narrative Intelligence Certification

Michael McRay sits down with Dr. Ben Rogers, a researcher at Boston College, to explore his groundbreaking research proving that people who view their lives through the hero's journey framework experience measurably greater meaning, resilience, and life satisfaction. They explore how growth mindset is really just a story we tell ourselves about our capacity to change. Dr. Rogers shares how his personal experiences shifted from finance to studying what makes life meaningful. Their conversation reveals how the narratives we tell ourselves about everything from workplace challenges to personal setbacks directly shape our well-being. In this episode, they also discuss:

• How people who naturally see their lives as hero's journeys score higher on meaning, resilience, and life satisfaction
• Why growth mindset versus fixed mindset are competing narratives about human potential
• The seven research-backed elements of the hero's journey: protagonist, shift, quest, allies, challenge, transformation, and legacy
• How a simple intervention can help people reframe their story and experience measurable benefits to well-being

Coming Soon

• STORY 2025: October 9-10 in Nashville, Tennessee at the Schermerhorn Symphony Center (use code PODCAST100)

Resources Mentioned

• Dr. Ben Rogers: Hero's Journey Assessment
• Becoming Restoried
• What to expand your narrative intelligence? Join The Circle!
• Istoria Collective