In this deeply practical and liberating episode of Straight Talking Sustainability, host Emma Burlow sits down with Claire Osborne, accredited climate career coach with 15 years of sustainability experience.

Claire also has over 2,000 hours working with individual clients from organisations including the Ellen MacArthur Foundation, Amnesty International, Octopus Energy, and Unilever.

In this episode, Emma and Claire explore why experienced sustainability professionals are increasingly questioning whether to stay in their roles, leave the sector entirely, or find completely new paths that balance mission with life beyond work.

Claire reveals how the tangled ball of wool representing career confusion can be untangled not through endless qualification-chasing or hypothesizing futures, but through inner foundation work, creating tight briefs that make decisions obvious, and crucially, testing your way forwards with two-week pilots that provide felt experience rather than theoretical speculation.

Emma opens with Claire's delightful claim to fame: performing as a Union Jack knickers-flashing nun on roller skates in the 2012 Olympics closing ceremony Monty Python skit watched by 27 million people, demonstrating that Claire brings both professional coaching credentials (International Coaching Federation member, accredited climate change coach) and wonderfully human experiences to her work.

This sets the tone for a conversation acknowledging that sustainability professionals are whole humans navigating complex lives, not just technical experts optimising carbon footprints.

Claire describes a profound shift in how sustainability roles are being perceived by employers, creating significant tension for experienced professionals who entered this work to deliver tangible outcomes (cutting emissions, protecting nature, winning hearts and minds) but increasingly find employers viewing sustainability narrowly as reporting, compliance, and risk protection.

This misalignment between purpose-driven professionals and operationally-focused employers, combined with geopolitical changes impossible to ignore, is fundamentally changing people's stamina and making it harder to show up with optimism, energy, patience, and clarity of direction.

The conversation introduces two critical concepts: burnout (working too hard without alignment to what you believe in, not just overwork) and bore-out (feeling under-challenged, disengaged, procrastinating, equally stressful as burnout especially when you possess strong purpose).

Both conditions leave people questioning whether to do something differently within current work or whether it is time for something completely different, balancing mission with enjoying life whilst delivering that mission. Claire works almost exclusively with experienced professionals (multiple roles under their belt) navigating these questions.

Claire describes how people typically arrive with a "tangled ball of wool" where everything feels knotted together: climate change complexity, personal values, location preferences, cultural fit, work-from-home balance, financial needs, family support requirements.

The biggest mistake people make is trying to solve this in one leap, jumping straight to job boards asking "which job am I going to do?" when meaningful work (especially with independent businesses or self-employment) rarely appears on traditional job platforms. More fundamentally, this represents an incredibly complex question that cannot be answered through single-step thinking.

Emma recognises the Christmas-to-New-Year anxiety spiral (am I doing the right thing, could I be doing more, what are my goals) that Claire validates as common for purpose-led professionals, though she identifies that self-criticism, fear, and judgement often show up in internal debates about "where do we go, what is enough, am I enough?"

This reveals why Claire's coaching always starts with looking internally, working on a simple principle: growth flourishes in fertile ground. Depleted, self-critical people operating from limiting beliefs (the very coachy phrase Claire apologises for) simply do not have minds open to possibility.

The work begins with practices helping people stay healthy in body and mind, examining stories they tell themselves ("I'm not the kind of person who does this," "I could never do that"), and building internal foundations before attempting external navigation.

Once foundations are established, the next objective is twofold: creating a decision filter (a brief for where you want to take your career) using what Claire calls "the freedom of a tight brief" (a marketing phrase describing how sufficient clarity makes answers obvious, like receiving an empty picture frame suddenly revealing what artwork would fit).

Claire shares her personal example: decorating a first flat felt impossible until receiving empty frames from a friend, which immediately clarified what would go on walls, what colours would work. Creating the brief involves clarifying signature strengths, topics that make you curious and excited, building a decision filter for what to say yes to and critically what to say no to (stopping time-wasting).

However, the output (the brief itself) matters less than the journey taken to get there, because clarifying strengths and interests is where confidence comes from, where conviction emerges, where people discover their USP and can communicate it to themselves and others with power.

The conversation tackles the dangerous trap of information asymmetry: we possess complete information about current jobs (creating false security, keeping us clinging to life rafts when beautiful islands sit just offshore) whilst having very little information about desired options.

Claire emphasises not hypothesizing your way forwards (assuming what directions might look like, either over-romanticising or catastrophising) but instead testing your way forwards through little pilots providing felt experience that answers questions with real information rather than theoretical speculation.

This testing phase represents Claire's favourite part because people suddenly get hooked in their hearts with bungee ropes and fly forwards, with practical questions getting knocked down left, right, and centre because they have felt excitement rather than imagined possibility.

Emma shares Andy Middleton's pivotal moment sitting on her doorstep saying "Emma, you can do this, I've got your back," recognising that sometimes one human's belief unlocks confidence that 18 months of internal dialogue could not achieve.

Claire introduces a brilliant practical tool: the energy tracker, spending five minutes daily for seven days noting what gave energy and what took it away. Her own energy tracker revealed loving big philosophical conversations about ideas, where the world is going, how to show up in it.

Her initial reaction: "that's not a job," dismissing it as interesting but not useful. When she finally discovered coaching, it hit her "like getting hit in the face with a brick," making obvious that this work would be energising despite difficult days discussing harder sustainability realities and shared fears.

The episode explores the dangerous over-emphasis on technical qualifications, with Claire observing people asking the wrong question: "what knowledge do I need to finally feel enough?" rather than more fundamental questions about environments they like working in or specific purposes they are driving towards.

Whilst corporate sustainability roles increasingly demand technical qualifications, people must first answer whether they want to stay in sustainability roles, and if so, what those roles look like, before deciding which technical skill to acquire.

Emma passionately reinforces this from her trainer-training experience, where people fixate on knowledge as their barrier ("what if people ask questions I can't answer?") when actually knowledge is the least of their worries.

The sustainability facts can be learned in the first hour of training; the remaining time demands soft skills (listening, meeting people where they are, applying business or sector knowledge with sustainability wrapping).

Emma emphasises it took her 20 years in consultancy to understand and believe that being the most knowledgeable person was not the goal, a realisation that contradicts how consultancy traditionally works (selling expertise and advisory time).

Claire notes that 95% of skills used in sustainability are soft skills, identical to skills used in other consulting fields, yet people easily get sucked into knowledge-acquisition vortexes that take them away from human experience.

If we want to engage people in change, we must show up as humans, empathising and listening, which becomes impossible when entire brains are occupied trying to recall the right fact.

She observes that clients frequently arrive having completed prestigious courses (CISL Cambridge Institute for Sustainability Leadership often mentioned) without getting the answer they sought, because missing ingredients include: processes breaking complexity into answerable chunks rather than one giant leap, exposure to case studies showing what is possible beyond corporate sustainability (if you cannot see it you cannot be it), and crucially, social accountability systems.

The social accountability concept represents what Andy Middleton provided Emma: teams of people supporting each other for who they are in their work, meeting regularly, having intimate honest conversations in safe spaces, holding each other accountable to compassion, reflection, and action, pushing past icky moments to gain real insight.

Claire is sceptical about LinkedIn's role here despite finding great community (Emma is part of that), because LinkedIn is not a safe space; it is performance space. What people need is the opposite: places to be honest, celebrate successes, and process pains without public visibility.

Emma shares her trainer WhatsApp group (40 trainers) created specifically for this safe space function, recognising her goal requires trainers still operating at high levels in five years rather than dropping like flies due to tiredness, exhaustion, under-resourcing, or not knowing where to find help. An army with holes in their boots serves nobody's goals.

This represents Emma's shift from knowledge-focus to human-focus, recognising that humans are the only ones getting the job done, so if everyone burns out the movement fails regardless of technical expertise accumulated.

Claire shares a powerful client transformation story: a woman pinned on Claire's new office board (visual representation of people she has made differences for, sitting over her shoulder as her team).

After 15 years in sustainability, this senior leader appeared diplomatic, calm, and professional externally but felt really angry (at the system, at herself, at impacts on young children), exemplified by working late on child labour protections whilst realising she had not said hello to or fed her own children when her husband came home.

The inner work (having space for yourself, helpful stories, clarifying what is important) led to role change from head of sustainability to sustainability director supporting independent businesses, but more profoundly: "I was frustrated and exhausted after 15 years in sustainability. Now I feel incredibly energised professionally and personally. This has meant I'm more patient, more understanding, more innovative in my approach. I've won resources and I spot opportunities where I used to see problems. It's had a profound impact on my young kids. And fundamentally, it's them I want a more sustainable and equitable world for."

Emma identifies this as her biggest takeaway: we can do endless external gazing (what qualification do I need, how do I climb this ladder, how do I fit in the gym, who am I looking up to, who would I want to be) but without internal work we remain at conflict with ourselves.

Emma's personal breakthrough involved shouting "freedom" at the top of her voice whilst running, recognising that overwhelming feeling was inside not on job boards, not in career ladders, not in KPIs.

When someone told her going self-employed for the third time was "so brave, such a leap of faith," she realised that having processed what she wanted and what was important, staying in her previous situation would have been harder than moving on, making the transition feel safer despite no guaranteed salary.

Claire validates this with the "changing view of what safety looks like" conversation she had with a senior client the previous day, noting that false security from complete information about current situations creates life-raft-clinging when beautiful islands sit offshore.

The episode concludes with practical first steps: the energy tracker (five minutes daily for one week generates rich insight without pressure to understand immediately) and the two-week test challenge (how can you create an experience in under two weeks that tests your direction rather than hypothesising endlessly?).

Claire shares an example: a client wanting to become a climate education trainer wrote a one-page description of a three-hour workshop, invited friends and close contacts, charged 50 pounds (creating friction to test if she could sell it), ran the session, and loved the buzz of being in the room.

Critically, this was not her first test; she had previously written 100 pages of a climate book and tried selling it, discovering she hated it. Without testing, she might have gone hell-for-leather in the writing direction and found a role she did not want.

Emma adds the brilliant corollary: if you set yourself a two-week test and by day 13 of 14 you still have not done it, that is a good sign you do not want to do that for a living.

In this sustainability career coaching and transition episode, you'll discover:

1. Why sustainability roles are shifting from tangible outcomes to a narrow reporting and compliance focus
2. The difference between burnout (misalignment with beliefs) and bore-out (under-challenged disengagement)
3. How the "tangled ball of wool" keeps people stuck trying to solve complex career questions in one leap
4. Why hypothesising your way forwards fails compared to testing your way forwards with two-week pilots
5. The power of "the freedom of a tight brief" making decisions obvious once you have sufficient clarity
6. How energy trackers (five minutes daily for seven days) reveal what actually energises versus drains you
7. Why 95% of sustainability skills are soft skills identical to other consulting fields
8. How information asymmetry creates false security in current roles versus under-informed future options
9. The critical role of social accountability systems beyond LinkedIn's performance space
10. Why internal foundation work matters more than external qualification-chasing for career satisfaction

Key Sustainability Career Coaching and Transition Insights:

(03:27) The shifting role definition: "There is a real shift in how sustainability roles are being perceived... employers are seeing the role of sustainability much more narrowly, reporting, compliance, risk protection. And that is creating quite a tension."

(07:27) Burnout versus bore-out: "It's showing up as burnout, which is not about work, it's not just about working too hard, it's about working too hard without it being aligned with what you actually believe in. And or it's showing up as bore out, people feeling under challenged, disengaged, procrastinating."

(09:39) The tangled ball of wool: "I always have this image when I'm talking to people when I first meet them who are coming with this problem of this tangled ball of wool. And so it's really all about untangling it, seeing which threads to pull on."

(09:52) The one-leap mistake: "Often the thing that I find that has been making that a really difficult thing to do is the fact that most people try and answer this question in one leap. They try and go straight to the jobs boards."

(12:15) Growth principle: "I work on a really simple principle that growth flourishes in fertile ground. If someone is depleted, self-critical... their mind just isn't open to possibility."

(13:31) The freedom of a tight brief: "I don't know if you've ever heard this phrase, the freedom of a tight brief... It's a marketing phrase. And the idea is that when you've got enough clarity of a brief, that the answers start to become obvious."

(14:57) The journey matters most: "What's most valuable is the journey that you take to get there. Because in clarifying your strengths, the things that you're interested in, that's where your confidence comes from. That's where your conviction comes from."

(19:25) Information asymmetry trap: "One of the things that often keeps us stuck is this information asymmetry. We have complete information about the job that we're doing right now. And we have very little information about often the options that we want to go into."

(19:54) Test don't hypothesise: "Not to hypothesize your way forwards, not to just assume what that direction might look like... And instead of hypothesizing your way forwards, to test your way forwards, do kind of little pilots that give you a felt experience."

(23:33) Soft skills reality: "95% of the skills... that you use in sustainability are soft skills. They are the same skills that you would use if you were a consultant in a different field."

(28:51) Social accountability systems: "What you need is what I think of as like a social accountability system, a team of people who are each supporting each other for who they are in their work, who meet regularly, who have intimate, honest conversations, it's a safe space."

(31:10) LinkedIn limitations: "I'm a bit sceptical about the role that it plays... LinkedIn is not a safe space. It is a space where there's a lot of performance. And what you need is the opposite of that."

(34:32) Energy tracker power: "There was one exercise that I did, which I would recommend everyone do actually. It's an energy tracker where you just five minutes a day at the end of each day, make a note of what gave you energy and what took it away."

(41:27) Transformation testimony: "I was frustrated and exhausted after 15 years in sustainability. Now I feel incredibly energised professionally and personally... I'm more patient, more understanding, more innovative in my approach. I've won resources and I spot opportunities where I used to see...

In this practical and clarifying solo episode of Straight Talking Sustainability, host Emma Burlow cuts through net zero jargon by introducing the Five Pillars framework from the Race to Zero campaign's Exponential Business Playbook, giving listeners a step-by-step maturity model that reduces overwhelm, helps organisations identify where they actually sit on the journey (often further ahead than they realise, or sometimes not as advanced as assumed), and provides clear guidance on what comes next without getting lost in complexity.

This framework moves beyond operational emissions housekeeping to explore how net zero becomes genuine business opportunity through model transformation, strategic investment, and influential storytelling that shapes industry direction.

Emma opens by acknowledging the multifaceted nature of sustainability work, noting how last week's mind-blowing episode with Steffi Bednarek on climate psychology contrasts with this week's operational focus, demonstrating that the podcast could run for five years without covering half the relevant territory.

She introduces maturity indexes as powerful tools for reducing overwhelm and establishing current position, having recently worked with food and drink clients in Scotland using maturity frameworks, and previously with the NHS Evergreen Assessment which provides stepped progression models.

The value of maturity frameworks lies in helping organisations understand where to start (a constant question Emma receives), recognising that some clients are far more advanced than they realise (like a hospice industry client working with Emma who has accomplished huge amounts but is not talking about it, missing critical leverage opportunities), whilst others assume more progress than actual implementation warrants.

The Five Pillars framework specifically targets net zero rather than broad sustainability, offering universal applicability regardless of sector or size.

Pillar One: Cut Your Operational Emissions represents the foundation, focusing on Scope 1 and 2 emissions from direct operations (things organisations have control over, including buildings, factories, company fleet, business travel).

Emma emphasises starting with what you know, what you have data on, rather than flying off to complex areas. The steps are simple: set a target (commit to halving emissions by 2030), start cutting emissions, track progress, and begin disclosing. Nothing else initially.

Quick wins include switching to clean electricity, upgrading heating and cooling systems, electrifying vehicles, and reducing unnecessary business flights.

Most organisations can slash significant emission chunks just by tightening up these areas, with the excellent news that this pillar usually saves money through efficiency improvements. This is fundamentally about operational efficiency rather than strategic transformation, making it accessible and financially positive for most organisations.

Pillar Two: Decarbonise Your Value Chain addresses where real emissions sit: Scope 3, everything outside direct control including suppliers, customers, and how products are used.

With 15 Scope 3 categories (not all applicable to every organisation), purchased goods and services represents the major category affecting everyone, alongside transport of goods, professional services spending, and numerous other upstream and downstream activities.

This pillar demands procurement stepping up, requiring sustainability strategies to genuinely reach top suppliers rather than superficial engagement.

Value chain thinking examines both sides: upstream (supply chain) and downstream (customer use, product disposal, entire lifecycle).

Emma stresses that without addressing this pillar, organisations are merely doing housekeeping rather than substantive climate action.

Whilst potentially intimidating (this is only Pillar Two), enormous opportunities exist, particularly through the shared pathways concept Emma discussed in previous episodes: who are you sharing these challenges with, and how can collaborative approaches accelerate progress?

Pillar Three: Build and Scale Climate Solutions represents Emma's favourite pillar because climate action transforms into genuine business opportunity beyond efficiency savings.

This examines business model itself: how organisations can pivot towards climate-friendly solutions, whether through digitisation, product-as-service models, transport reduction, transitioning to low carbon and circular models, or educating customers about low carbon lifestyles. The focus shifts from operational tweaks to strategic transformation with outward influence.

Organisations set measurable goals for this work, potentially including revenue targets from climate-positive activities, whilst thinking about nature integration, R&D investment, and circularity principles. Disclosure, KPI setting, measurement, and learning-sharing continue, but the work fundamentally differs from Pillars One and Two efficiency focus.

This represents where net zero strategy genuinely reshapes what organisations do and how they create value, moving beyond compliance towards innovation.

Pillar Four: Mobilise Finance and Investment sounds intimidating but essentially means putting money where commitments sit, or where organisations want to be.

Achieving low carbon futures requires funding things that facilitate that transition, shifting money from carbon-intensive to low carbon investments without necessarily finding new capital.

This demands policy and mindset shifts in senior teams and investment strategies, recognising that money drives transition (carbon follows money fundamentally).

This pillar includes investment location decisions, technology and infrastructure choices prioritising low carbon fuels and materials, R&D allocation, and consideration of high-quality carbon removals alongside nature protection and restoration.

Banking and pensions definitely feature, but also publishing percentages of investment aligned with low carbon futures, which signals intention publicly and indicates position and direction to stakeholders.

This fits with exponential growth curves Emma discussed previously: organisations need to make investment decisions considering carbon rather than defaulting to business-as-usual, integrating closely with Pillar Three business model work as strategy rather than just efficiency.

Pillar Five: Shape Policy and Narrative addresses the often-forgotten influence dimension that Emma emphasises people dramatically underestimate.

Signals from organisations impact entire sectors and thousands of employees, communicating "we're doing this now" messages that permission innovation, resource allocation for transition thinking, and cultural shifts towards operating in new paradigms.

This pillar examines how organisations show up and leverage their influence in competitive, individualistic environments whilst recognising shared problems requiring collaborative solutions.

The easiest applications people understand involve communications, lobbying, and advocacy, but deeper questions matter: what are you lobbying for, which tables are you at, what do you spend time on (signalling direction of travel), who are you talking to, what messages are you sharing on panels? Emma particularly loves working with MDs and senior teams on this because they command significant platforms depending on organisation type.

Providing them with confidence-building nuggets and sound bites (through carbon literacy training, sustainability training, or one-to-one coaching at senior levels) that they can deploy in public forums creates gold dust impact that moves mountains.

Emma notes the transcript appears cut off mid-sentence whilst discussing what the sector currently hears, but the core Five Pillars framework has been comprehensively explained, providing listeners with a maturity model they can immediately apply to assess current position and identify next steps.

The framework's power lies in systematic progression from operational efficiency through value chain engagement and business model innovation to strategic investment and influential advocacy, ensuring organisations do not remain stuck in housekeeping whilst genuine transformation opportunities pass them by.

In this net zero maturity framework and implementation strategy episode, you'll discover:

1. Why maturity indexes reduce overwhelm by showing clear step-by-step progression towards net zero
2. How Pillar One operational emissions (Scope 1 and 2) usually saves money through efficiency
3. Why focusing only on operational emissions without Scope 3 represents mere housekeeping
4. How Pillar Two value chain decarbonisation demands procurement genuinely engaging top suppliers
5. Why Pillar Three transforms climate action from cost centre into genuine business opportunity
6. How business model pivots towards climate solutions create measurable revenue potential
7. Why Pillar Four financial mobilisation means shifting existing money rather than finding new capital
8. How publishing investment percentages aligned with low carbon futures signals public intention
9. Why Pillar Five influence and narrative-shaping leverages massive impact through senior visibility
10. How providing MDs with confident sound bites moves mountains through public platform utilisation

Key Net Zero Maturity and Five Pillars Insights:

(02:24) Framework value: "These maturity indexes, these kind of where am I in terms of emerging, implementing, knocking it out of the park... are really useful. So if you haven't looked at this at all for your business, your organisation, it's a great place to start."

(04:48) Pillar One foundation: "Start with what you know. Start with what you've got data on... don't go flying off onto other things. Start with what you know and get that right. Set a target. Commit to halving emissions by 2030. Start cutting emissions. Don't do anything else."

(05:48) Efficiency saves money: "Most organisations can slash a chunk of their emissions off just by tightening up on those things. And there's a lot of efficiency savings in this as well. The good news is that this pillar usually saves you money."

(06:04) Pillar Two reality check: "This is where the real action happens... If your sustainability strategy isn't really reaching your top suppliers, you're not even going to scratch the surface on this."

(07:00) Beyond housekeeping: "If you're not looking at this, you're really just doing some housekeeping... and that's only pillar two."

(08:04) Pillar Three transformation: "This is probably my favourite because it's where climate action actually becomes opportunity for the business... This is about your business model. This is about how you can pivot towards more climate-friendly solutions."

(09:37) Pillar Four money matters: "Money will drive the transition. There's no two ways about that. Carbon follows money... So with this pillar, we're including things like where you invest, what sort of technology and infrastructure you're investing in."

(10:45) Strategic not efficiency: "Really starting to make investment decisions that consider carbon, not just business as usual. So it fits very well with pillar three, with your business models... So it's about your strategy rather than efficiency."

(11:01) Pillar Five influence power: "Do not underestimate your influence. Do not underestimate how much a signal from your business impacts others in your sector, impacts the thousands of people that work for you."

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In this profound and paradigm-shifting episode of Straight Talking Sustainability, host Emma Burlow sits down with Steffi Bednarek, Director of the Centre for Climate Psychology and author of Climate Psychology and Change, to challenge one of sustainability's most damaging narratives: that feeling anxious about climate change represents a disorder requiring treatment.

Steffi flips this entirely, asking instead what is wrong with people who do not feel distressed, exploring workplace splitting that forces us to leave our values at the office door, and revealing how psychological frameworks can help sustainability professionals become "systems ninjas" rather than burnt-out martyrs fighting impossible battles alone.

Emma opens by acknowledging she has waited to dive into climate psychology for ages, recognising that the sustainability sector skirts across the top of psychological issues whilst maintaining a compliance-driven "tick this box, write that report, everyone will be fine" approach that fundamentally misunderstands how humans actually work.

The legacy of treating sustainability as purely technical implementation (tell people what they need to know, give them actions, expect compliance) has created an industry-wide blind spot: we are humans who happen to go to work, not rational machines that switch off emotions and values when the working day begins.

Steffi's background spans consulting on social impact for the Council of Europe and large NGOs, working on policy and strategy including UK domestic violence strategy, then training as a psychotherapist specifically to understand change at a deeper level.

Her key insight from therapeutic work: people arriving for therapy typically know exactly what needs to change, have read the books, tried the things, and say "here I am, I need your magic ideas to help me get from A to B." However, as an experienced therapist learns, this is just the story from their stuckness.

Neither client nor therapist will know initially what actually needs to happen to get unstuck; the real exploration begins when you stop accepting the presenting problem at face value.

This therapeutic insight applies directly to organisational sustainability work. Companies employ consultants saying "we need your advice on how to get from A to B," but Steffi works with complexity theory (Dave Snowden and Cynefin framework) which demands stepping back, really listening to what the main narrative does not pay attention to, and discovering that the story revealing itself is often a very different problem than the one initially presented.

The mechanistic paradigm (analyse something, identify what is needed, tell people to do more X) fundamentally fails because we do not live in fragmented contexts; we live in life, which changes constantly and places us in multiple contradicting contexts simultaneously.

Steffi introduces the concept of double binds: we are never just professionals, we are also mothers, friends, daughters, people socialised to believe success is important, children of ideology receiving mixed messages constantly.

Sustainability dialogue treats humans as though we operate in singular contexts, which makes sense during sealed conference events but collapses when people return home to financial worries, partners expecting certain lifestyles, and the recognition that changing careers (perhaps leaving marketing jobs that contribute to overconsumption) might be fundamentally necessary but financially impossible when children have needs.

The conversation tackles the deeply problematic term "climate anxiety," which Steffi fundamentally opposes. The American Psychological Association defines it as heightened distress in relation to climate changes, but using the word "anxiety" immediately places this within clinical context where anxiety is pathologised, treated, medicated, and eliminated.

Steffi provocatively asks: what is wrong with people who do not feel distress? What has happened that enables someone to feel no anxiety about climate breakdown? The answer reveals the real clinical concern: dissociation, cut-offness from the world, creating bubbles where external reality is completely excluded.

Emma laughs out loud at this reframe, recognising the profound truth: feeling anxious about climate represents a healthy response to a dangerous situation, not a disorder requiring treatment.

The intervention does not belong with people feeling climate distress; it belongs with the numbness, the shutting down, the defensive jokes belittling sustainability ("all right Greenie, I'm off to Morocco for the weekend, don't tell Emma").

Steffi identifies this numbness as the real symptom that is clinically worrisome, noting that heroic culture celebrates lone individuals who weather storms unaffected, yet highest suicide rates occur in young men who have split off from everything that makes them vulnerable and fearful.

The episode explores workplace splitting and disavowal, describing how we genuinely care deeply about children and nature at weekends, feeling like good people with aligned values (100% true), but Monday morning alarm clocks trigger a slow shedding of these values.

By the time we enter workplaces where completely different value sets operate, we have left personal concerns behind because being a mother is not welcome in professional contexts. This splitting is not individual choice; it is survival strategy in systems that demand conformity. We cannot function in current circumstances without splitting, and everyone does it (even fervent activists split off aspects to cope).

Steffi describes how this enables informed climate conversations followed 10 minutes later by decisions completely undermining everything just discussed, allowing us to function without holding too much anxiety.

Gregory Bateson identified this as potentially the origin of schizophrenia: when you bring together worlds that do not work together, it is crazy-making. People who feel climate anxiety have greater capacity to not split off, to make connections across contexts, but the price for holding that integration (necessary for navigating towards safer futures) is anxiety and discomfort. Not fitting in as well becomes the cost of holding children's futures in mind whilst making work decisions.

Emma and Steffi discuss how this manifests in workplaces, with younger generations voicing distress and being pathologised as "problem generations" (the dreaded word "woke" comes up). Employers approach Steffi wanting to "fix" young people feeling too much, when actually the fragmentation sits in operational structures themselves.

Creating "sustainability champions" or dedicated roles represents the problem: Emma holds all of that concern, everyone else can focus elsewhere. This structural splitting makes resistance inevitable, yet sustainability communications typically try to break through resistance rather than becoming interested in it and giving people permission to reject sustainability messages.

Steffi introduces Internal Family Systems (IFS) methodology, which the Centre for Climate Psychology is scaling for organisational contexts. Rather than pushing for change (which creates resistance), IFS acknowledges multiple competing values simultaneously: the part wanting to attend the gym, the part saying work meetings are important, the part saying "but I'm important too, my body is important."

Instead of habitual resolution (work usually wins in cultures socialising us that way), IFS teaches stepping back, making multiple values conscious like a team meeting with different parts, and listening rather than forcing hierarchy.

This approach applies to complex climate decisions where people face genuine dilemmas (career change might be necessary but family has needs). The paradox of change states: the more I push for change, the more resistance I build.

Conversely, when I genuinely stay with "this is too much, this feels uncomfortable, maybe we won't solve this" without manipulation or hidden agenda to turn things around, often the other person moves towards "well I think we should try." Emma recognises this as the listening and space-holding work she increasingly emphasises in training, dropping the guard to acknowledge imperfection and genuinely wanting to hear what people think.

Steffi clarifies that organisations rarely truly want to solve these psychological dynamics because it means actual change: resourcing staff to become competent at working in complex adaptive systems, reading clashes and double binds and splitting, forming their own authority about next possible steps.

This represents fundamental transformation beyond four-hour workshops or talks (the typical requests Steffi receives). Instead, she established the Centre for Climate Psychology to resource staff outside organisational structures, where people hungry for this work (recognising the craziness of their situations and suffering from high burnout rates) can develop capacity.

The conversation concludes with Steffi's vision of people becoming "systems ninjas" when adequately resourced to stay in pressure cooker situations. Meeting others (often outside organisations) enables individuals to recognise that their agency exists everywhere they contact the system (not just at work).

Resourced people make differences they never believed possible, often women who initially think "I leave this stuff to others" who suddenly ask "why isn't anybody doing anything about this?" The key is making mental health independent of whether initiatives succeed or fail, measuring success by conditions created rather than outcomes controlled.

Steffi emphasises that guilt and shame about "not doing enough" are not individual shortcomings. Adding psychological lenses reveals small actions with genuine scaling potential, different from recycling as individual behaviour change.

With proper systemic reading, people identify the one bit they can do that has potential to scale, often something close to home that they already love, are good at, and are trusted for. Sustainability appears in every sentence uttered daily; it is right under our noses rather than requiring master's degrees and ten-year learning curves.

In this climate psychology and systems change episode, you'll discover:

1. Why climate anxiety represents healthy response to dangerous situations, not a disorder
2. What is clinically worrisome: numbness, dissociation, and defensive jokes belittling sustainability
3. How workplace splitting forces us to leave weekend values behind by Monday morning meetings
4. Why heroic culture celebrating unaffected individuals correlates with highest suicide rates
5. The double bind reality: we navigate multiple contexts with contradicting demands simultaneously
6. How Internal Family Systems (IFS) helps hold competing values without collapsing into simplistic directives
7. Why the paradox of change means pushing for transformation creates resistance
8. How organisations structurally fragment concern through "sustainability champions" and dedicated roles
9. Why young generations voicing distress are pathologised rather than recognised as integrated responders
10. How becoming "systems ninjas" creates agency everywhere we contact systems, not just at work

Key Climate Psychology and Systemic Change Insights:

(02:47) The everything crisis: "We have to ask where even is climate change? Is that just an excess of CO2 in the atmosphere? And when we bring it down to people, people's behaviour, people's decisions, relationships, habits that we form, then we're in the realm of psychology."

(03:16) Professional fragmentation: "We live in a society that likes to fragment big problems into smaller chunks... But really what we're dealing with is a crisis that is deeply interconnected."

(10:14) The story of stuckness: "Most people that come to therapy know exactly what needs to change, they've read the books, they've tried the thing... But actually as an experienced therapist you know that this is just the story from their stuckness."

(13:29) The mechanistic paradigm failure: "If I apply the mechanistic paradigm shift, then it's really easy... I just analyse something and I think we need more X. So I tell people we need more X. But the problem is that we don't live in a fragmented world, we live in life."

(15:32) The double bind: "I am never just a professional. I'm also a mum. I'm also a friend... And so a lot of the sustainability dialogue treats humans as though we are only in one context."

(21:06) Flipping climate anxiety: "I don't find that term helpful... If we use that word anxiety, we are immediately within the clinical context... But it's actually a really healthy response, it's a healthy response to an unhealthy situation."

(22:31) The provocative question: "I flip this around because I ask what's wrong with the people who don't feel this? What's happened?... You can only not feel anxious if you dissociate or if you have completely created a world in which you cut out the world."

(25:23) Numbness as symptom: "When we numb, in psychological terms, you have to ask why does an individual need to do that? And that's usually a sign that they're not very well supported."

(27:28) Clinical concern located correctly: "For me, the intervention doesn't need to be with the climate anxiety. The intervention needs to be with the numbness... That's clinically worrisome."

(30:22) Permission to not care: "What I'm saying is I also go in and give permission to not care about it... Because in psychology you have a theory that is called the paradox of change. The more I push for change, the more resistance I build."

(36:45) Workplace splitting: "On a Monday morning your alarm clock rings and you do your eventual things... and really slowly you leave these values behind and then you enter into the workplace where a whole different set of values are in operation."

(38:50) Price of integration: "People who feel anxiety have greater capacity to not split off, to make connections and that's the price to pay. So the price to pay for a safer future is anxiety. To hold that."

(43:14) Becoming systems ninjas: "When people are resourced and meet others, and often that's outside of their organization, we become systems ninjas... Suddenly our individual agency is where we are in contact with the system, which is everywhere."

Centre for Climate Psychology:

1. Founded by Steffi Bednarek to scale psychological knowledge for climate work
2. Partnering with Dave Snowden (Cynefin framework) and complexity theory
3. Launching major course on IFS for Social Transformation in October 2026
4. Monthly events (90 minutes) for people to explore whether this work resonates
5. Resourcing staff outside organisational structures where real change is often blocked
6. Training people to work competently in complex adaptive systems

Therapeutic and Complexity Frameworks:

1. Internal Family Systems (IFS) methodology for holding multiple competing values
2. Cynefin framework (Dave Snowden) for complexity navigation
3. Gregory Bateson's work on double binds and schizophrenia origins
4. State dependence in neurology (how we shift between contexts)
5. Paradox of change theory (pushing creates resistance; acceptance enables transformation)

Connect with Steffi

Steffi Bednarek (FRSA) | LinkedIn

DeSmog Article This Psychologist is Bringing A New Lens to the Climate Crisis

Climate Psychology Centre

Book - Climate, Psychology and Change

Connect With Emma

Website

Email

Emma Burlow - LinkedIn

Book an enquiry call with Emma

https://calendly.com/emma-lighthouse/20min

In this essential and clarifying solo episode of Straight Talking Sustainability, host Emma Burlow demystifies one of sustainability's most intimidating concepts (system change) by walking listeners through a practical framework from Nigel Topping's Race to Zero TED Talk that has been stuck on her office wall for years.

With three simple visual rules (ambition loops, exponential goals, and shared action pathways), Emma transforms system change from an abstract scary concept into actionable strategy that helps businesses set appropriate ambition levels, plan for technological disruption properly, and avoid the painful trap of plowing their furrow solo whilst competitors and supply chains speed ahead together.

The episode centres on a poster featuring three rules for system change that Emma uses when training boards and senior teams to get them out of the weeds, out of rabbit holes, and looking at the bigger picture.

The framework originated from Nigel Topping's TED Talk and consists of three graphics: a Möbius loop representing ambition loops, an upward arrow representing exponential goals (ironically resembling a climate change graph), and three splitting arrows representing shared action pathways. Emma walks through each rule systematically, explaining not just what they mean but how businesses can apply them practically.

Rule One: Harness Ambition Loops are self-reinforcing cycles (like climate feedback loops) that push everyone to move faster when industry, policy, investors, and consumers all rise to the same ambition level.

The Holy Grail of system change occurs when things align like planets: policymakers set clear direction that levels the playing field, the private sector gets on board rather than working in totally different directions, policy incentivises innovation which brings costs down, solutions scale as investors pile in because risk has dropped, cheaper solutions enable consumer adoption, and the loop continues with rising ambition levels.

Emma contrasts this with the experience of disruptive startups (having worked with Revolution Zero for four years plus numerous innovative startups), where it feels like literally pushing water uphill when you are not in an ambition loop.

The critical insight is understanding your landscape: knowing policy changes coming up, aligning with them, working out where your customer sits in the loop (are they even aware of the loop?), and recognising that timing is everything. Many products and businesses fail not because the idea was poor but because timing was wrong (the customer was not aligned, the policy was not aligned).

The EV example illustrates ambition loops perfectly. EVs bumbled along at low adoption for 20 years (Nissan Leaf, Prius) with no policy in place. Once policy was established, EV manufacturers invested rapidly, and the sector moved towards policy targets for adoption.

When the UK government pulled back on EV timelines, the car industry created a "hoo-ha" saying "hang on a minute, you can't pull back now, we've put all this money in." This demonstrated how critical aligned ambition is; breaking the loop after investments have been made creates chaos and represents nearsighted policymaking that undermines the system.

Rule Two: Set Exponential Goals addresses Emma's favourite mistake: picking a net zero date then setting linear goals (reducing emissions by 10% or 15% annually) without understanding how industrial revolutions actually work.

All technology disruption follows an S-curve: slow adverse adoption, then increasing, then doubling until market adoption is reached. This pattern applies to mobile phones, the internet, solar power, AI, and every major technological disruption. We are currently seeing this with solar, electric batteries, and renewable energy globally.

Emma emphasises that setting linear targets essentially plans for technology not to work. You are not planning for the doubling, the speeding up, the dropping of prices, and the adoption acceleration that characterises industrial revolutions.

Setting exponential goals requires rethinking strategy, investment timing, and operational rollout to unblock the speed that happens in technological revolutions. If your goals do not feel uncomfortable, they are probably not exponential enough and are not doing enough soon enough.

The doubling mathematics are striking: 2% market adoption feels like struggling, 4% still struggling, 8% starting to look interesting, 16% is roughly where EVs currently sit, but doubling to 32% then 64% reaches near-full market adoption rapidly.

Emma's concern is that businesses will miss the boat when things double repeatedly, leaving them scrambling to catch up when exponential adoption has already passed them by. Understanding this curve prevents the strategic error of underestimating transformation speed.

Rule Three: Shared Action Pathways tackles the reality that ploughing your furrow solo (every industry doing its own thing, every company doing its own thing) is slow and expensive.

Those are the only two words needed: slow and expensive. Sharing pathways means understanding who is in your system: supply chains need to talk to you, you need to talk to customers, and crucially, you may even need to talk to competitors. Sector-wide movements de-risk transformation, potentially including lobbying government together for policy that creates ambition loops.

The biggest missed opportunity Emma identifies is data sharing. Whilst commercially sensitive and difficult, there is enormous potential to speed things up and reduce costs through collaborative data work.

Sector-wide roadmaps exist for food and drink, retail, and other industries, helping define direction and clarify roles. However, Emma's hope is that once businesses work out where their shared pathways are (who are you sharing this pain with?), they pick up the phone old-school or drop a DM and have actual conversations rather than working in painful isolation.

The acceleration potential is massive: mutual benefit through collaboration, getting in the room together, and hoping to make the most of the exponential growth previously discussed. Emma calls for bravery in identifying shared pathways and reaching out, recognising that the alternative (expensive, slow, isolated progress) is becoming untenable as transformation timelines compress and competitive pressures increase.

Emma positions this framework as a golden nugget for people who are not talking about systems all day. Rather than feeling overwhelmed by "it's all too big and it's all up there," this brings system change back to practical business questions: What do you actually want me to do? Have a look at the graphic, listen to the explanation, watch Nigel Topping's TED Talk, and find it as useful as Emma does.

The episode concludes with Emma encouraging listeners to share with others in the sustainability sector who can benefit from this framework, reinforcing the shared action pathway principle through the act of knowledge sharing itself. This is system change demystified: understanding feedback loops that create momentum, planning for exponential rather than linear transformation, and collaborating rather than competing on the journey to net zero.

In this system change and net zero strategy episode, you'll discover:

1. Why ambition loops require alignment between policy, industry, investors, and consumers to work
2. How timing determines success or failure for innovative products and businesses
3. The EV case study demonstrating what happens when government breaks an established ambition loop
4. Why setting linear net-zero targets fundamentally misunderstands how industrial revolutions work
5. How exponential goals follow S-curve adoption (slow, then doubling) rather than steady percentages
6. Why goals that do not feel uncomfortable are probably not exponential enough
7. The mathematics of doubling: from 2% to 64% market adoption happens faster than linear thinking expects
8. Why ploughing your furrow solo is both slow and expensive in every industry
9. How data sharing (despite commercial sensitivity) represents the biggest missed opportunity for acceleration
10. Why picking up the phone to discuss shared pathways beats isolated expensive progress

Key System Change and Net Zero Strategy Insights:

(04:13) Stepping back for perspective: "I use this when clients sometimes get stuck in the minutiae and sometimes we have to go deep right we have to go down to the detail but it's that whole thing about stepping back."

(06:00) Ambition loops defined: "Ambitious ambition loops, right? They're basically self reinforcing cycles... that push everyone to move faster... when industry and policy and maybe investors and hopefully the public consumers, they all rise to the same level of ambition."

(07:00) The startup struggle: "This is the opposite for how it feels for disruptive startups... Having been there working with Revolution Zero for four years and stacks of other innovative startups, it is literally pushing water uphill if you are not in one of these ambition loops."

(08:30) EV timing example: "EVs have been around for like 20 odd years, the Nissan Leaf and the Prius, bumbling along at really low adoption levels. There was no policy in place, and that was why it didn't really take off."

(10:20) The linear mistake: "One of the biggest mistakes we make, particularly around net zero, is picking a date and then setting kind of linear goals... That's not how industrial revolutions work."

(11:20) Exponential growth pattern: "Every major technological disruption that we've seen, mobile phones, the internet, solar power... they follow this S curve, slow, adverse, then increasing, then doubling until they reach market adoption."

(12:40) The doubling mathematics: "If you think about 2% market adoption, everyone's struggling... 4%, 8%, oh okay now it's starting to look interesting, 16%... if you double that, that's 32, and then that's 64, which is pretty much full market adoption."

(13:00) Shared pathways principle: "If we plough our furrow solo, every industry doing their own thing, every company doing their own thing... it is slow and expensive. Right, that's the only two words you need to remember, slow and expensive."

(14:00) The data opportunity: "The biggie that I think is missed here is data... I know how hard that is commercially to share data, but there's tons of stuff we could work on to just speed things up and reduce the cost."

(15:45) Call to bravery: "Be a bit braver. Who are we sharing this pathway with? Frankly, how can we both mutually benefit? Let's get in the room. The whole thing can be accelerated."

Nigel Topping's Three Rules for System Change:

1. Harness Ambition Loops (Möbius loop graphic): Self-reinforcing cycles when policy, industry, investors, and consumers align
2. Set Exponential Goals (upward arrow graphic): Planning for S-curve adoption and doubling rather than linear progress
3. Shared Action Pathways (three splitting arrows graphic): Collaborating on sector-wide roadmaps rather than working in expensive isolation

Resources and Links:

1. Nigel Topping's Race to Zero TED Talk

Connect With Emma

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Email

Emma Burlow - LinkedIn

Book an enquiry call with Emma

https://calendly.com/emma-lighthouse/20min

In this insightful and energising episode of Straight Talking Sustainability, host Emma Burlow sits down with Crista Buznea, Head of Sustainability Marketing at Ecologi, to explore how effective communication can transform sustainability from a worthy burden into an engaging, dopamine-filled journey that drives real business action.

With a background spanning tourism marketing at Heathrow and TUI before transitioning into sustainability leadership, Crista brings unique perspective on what actually works when trying to bring sustainability to the masses through authentic storytelling, strategic listening, and remarkably, the occasional use of negative messaging.

Crista's career transformation began during travels through Thailand and Cambodia, where she witnessed the dark side of tourism that her university degree had glamorised: child exploitation, fake orphanages, environmental pollution, and animal welfare issues.

This awakening led her back to university for another degree, then into roles at Heathrow and TUI where she applied marketing skills to sustainability challenges, successfully integrating sustainability into every in-flight entertainment magazine, on-screen content, in travel agencies, and through video campaigns.

Her mission has always been bringing sustainability to the masses, making it accessible rather than corporate, engaging rather than jargon-filled.

When the pandemic eliminated tourism jobs including Crista's, she showed up on LinkedIn every day telling sustainability stories, filming content, and building consistency that ultimately attracted Ecology.

They offered her a platform doing sustainability "very differently to anything I'd ever seen," using gamification and creating what Crista describes as "an environment full of dopamine" that makes sustainability genuinely engaging.

This philosophy challenges the traditional worthy, anxiety-inducing, difficult journey narrative that dominates much sustainability communication, suggesting instead that positive energy and accessible entry points drive far more participation than guilt and complexity.

The conversation centres on Ecologi's latest campaign, "Sustainability Shouldn't Be Unsustainable," which emerged from Crista's social listening at climate conferences and events.

Working with over 24,000 businesses gave her extensive exposure to sustainability leaders' challenges, and she consistently heard paradoxical demands: integrate sustainability on the ground but also be a strategic thinker, speak up but not too loud, don't be afraid of greenwashing but don't be green-hushed either.

The campaign mirrors these tensions back to the industry, acknowledging that sustainability professionals are caught between business objectives and regulatory pressure, between optimistic targets and harsh reality, between spreadsheets and storytelling.

Crista reveals fascinating insights from Ecologi's marketing experiments testing positive versus negative messaging, carrot versus stick approaches. Their weekly "Good News" series generates 20% of weekly engagement, proving positive content works.

However, when testing the same message framed as a barrier versus a motivation, barriers (the stick, the negative framing) perform marginally better.

This counterintuitive finding challenges the sustainability sector's growing emphasis on positivity-only approaches, suggesting that balanced communication acknowledging both challenges and opportunities resonates more authentically than relentless optimism or doom-focused messaging.

The episode explores critical sustainability marketing challenges including AI-generated content that lacks authenticity (easily spotted through overuse of dashes, lists of three, and algorithmic patterns), green-hushing driven by Western political changes and business caution, and the constant need to simplify jargon (carbon neutrality, net zero, beyond value chain mitigation) into accessible language that creates "light bulb moments" for business audiences.

Crista emphasises that great sustainability leaders navigate paradoxes daily, finding middle ground between competing tensions rather than choosing one extreme.

Emma and Crista discuss the toolkit for engaging any business through understanding their barriers and motivations. Barriers include financial constraints, time scarcity, lack of internal knowledge, and doubt about business returns.

Motivations include competitive advantage, brand reputation, customer attraction, and ability to hire and retain quality staff. Ecologi's annual Climate Commitment Survey consistently shows these as top drivers, with case studies like Co-op demonstrating customer and colleague engagement success, and University of Derby's net zero business school building showcasing student-driven demand for sustainability leadership.

The conversation addresses the criticism of carbon offsetting, with Crista explaining Ecology's evolution from B2C to B2B, from focusing solely on offsets to helping businesses calculate footprints, reduce emissions (Ecologi reduced their own by 20% year-on-year), and submit Science Based Targets.

She uses a powerful university analogy: you wouldn't approach a first-year student on day one demanding to see their PhD, yet sustainability communications often expect businesses to jump immediately to advanced action.

Starting with accessible steps like tree planting creates captive audiences for deeper education about the difference between carbon neutrality (passive offsetting) and net zero (requiring 90% emissions reduction).

Crista shares inspiring transformation stories from businesses like PropellerNet, Krystal Hosting, and Jump Creative who started with simple tree planting in 2020 and five years later are B Corps with solar panels, decarbonised operations, and comprehensive sustainability strategies.

This journey model proves that accessible entry points do not trap businesses in superficial action; rather, they create stepping stones towards more ambitious work. The criticism that offsetting prevents "real" action ignores the reality that many businesses need tangible, understandable starting points before they can grasp complex reduction strategies.

The episode tackles the role of AI in sustainability communications, with Crista acknowledging she uses AI multiple times daily as an efficiency tool whilst warning against losing humanity and authenticity.

AI cannot read body language, hold space for complex emotions, or tailor conversations word-by-word based on what it absorbs from the other person. The sales team at Ecology no longer uses presentation decks, instead spending the first 10-20 minutes of meetings simply listening to potential customers' problems, then tailoring responses to those specific challenges rather than delivering generic pitches.

Emma explores the importance of social listening and reading the room, noting that what works in one corporate culture may fail in another, what resonated in the 1990s may not work today, and sustainability professionals need skills to pivot instantly between firing on all cylinders with mature clients and approaching defensive, cautious clients with completely different messaging.

This adaptability, combined with genuine curiosity about motivations and barriers, separates effective sustainability engagement from frustrated professionals wondering why their excellent case studies keep falling flat.

The conversation concludes with Crista's mentoring advice that applies to both young professionals and business leaders: consistency over intensity. Rather than intense January enthusiasm that fades by February (the "gym effect"), sustainable progress requires showing up daily, taking small steps, and building momentum through regular action rather than sporadic bursts.

Crista's own career exemplifies this, as daily LinkedIn storytelling during the pandemic created the visibility that led to Ecologi discovering her. For businesses, this means avoiding the trap of "sustainability week" or "sustainability month" in favour of recognising that every day is sustainability day.

In this sustainability marketing and communication strategy episode, you'll discover:

1. Why creating "an environment full of dopamine" drives more sustainability engagement than guilt and anxiety
2. How Ecology's "Sustainability Shouldn't Be Unsustainable" campaign mirrors paradoxes back to the industry
3. The surprising finding that negative messaging (barriers/sticks) performs marginally better than positive messaging (carrots)
4. Why balanced communication acknowledging both challenges and opportunities resonates most authentically
5. How to spot AI-generated sustainability content (overuse of dashes, lists of three, algorithmic patterns)
6. The toolkit of barriers and motivations that enables engagement with any business regardless of maturity
7. Why starting with accessible entry points (tree planting, offsetting) creates stepping stones to ambitious action
8. How PropellerNet, Krystal Hosting, and Jump Creative evolved from tree planting to B Corp status in five years
9. The university analogy: why demanding PhD-level action from sustainability beginners kills momentum
10. Why consistency over intensity drives both personal career success and business sustainability transformation

Key Sustainability Marketing and Engagement Insights:

(03:58) The dopamine difference: "It wasn't corporate at all. It was engaging. It was using gamification. It was genuinely an environment full of dopamine, where I was like, wow, this is if this is how we start promoting sustainability, I think it will really catch fire."

(06:29) Social listening in action: "I've been going to a lot of climate events and conferences... I'm always trying to activate my social listening and truly understand what sustainability leaders are feeling because then I can take that away and know how to engage them more."

(07:22) The paradox campaign: "We're being told integrate sustainability on the ground, but also be a great strategic thinker... speak up, but not too loud... don't be afraid of greenwashing, but don't be green-hushed as well."

(11:06) Simplification as marketing: "We have so much jargon... It's really, really important to simplify that. And that's one of the things that I really love as a marketer is the moments where I have those clicks and I can see the light bulb."

(14:18) The engagement toolkit: "Barriers and motivations are essentially the carrots and the sticks. And somewhere within that, you will always find the tool that you can use to engage any business. It's just about understanding and knowing the toolkit."

(17:30) AI as tool not replacement: "I use AI every single day, multiple times a day... It's a very helpful tool to structure my thoughts... But an AI can't hold space. It's only a human that has the ability to hold space and navigate and be able to know how to tailor based on almost word by word."

(19:25) Authenticity warning: "AI uses certain things that are quite obvious. Em dashes, lists of three... Just make sure that once you have the outline, you inject personality, you bring it back to some authenticity."

(22:42) The negative versus positive test: "We were talking about barriers, triggers, and motivations, the same message as a barrier versus a motivation, barriers perform better. So the negative does perform slightly better... People respond a lot better to the stick, sadly, rather than the carrot."

(33:07) The university analogy: "You wouldn't go to a first year university student on their first day and say, show me your PhD, you're not doing good enough work... You're saying, hey, you are on a journey, you're learning, come back tomorrow."

(37:14) Timing and urgency: "1.5 degrees back in 2015... that's no longer an achievable target. We're talking way above that. So actually, Cristiana Figueres recently said... we need to throw everything. We need to throw the kitchen sink at it."

Connect With Crista

Crista's LinkedIn

Ecologi's website

Link to Ecologi's new brand campaign, Sustainability Shouldn't be Unsustainable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V0_tvQ3QAI

Connect With Emma

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Emma Burlow - LinkedIn

Book an enquiry call with Emma

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In this practical and uplifting solo episode of Straight Talking Sustainability, host Emma Burlow kicks off 2026 with a powerful reframe for sustainability professionals exhausted by negativity, what-aboutism, and constant battles over every small change.

Drawing on groundbreaking research published in Nature Food, Emma demonstrates how clever behind-the-scenes switches can deliver massive carbon reductions (30% in one study) without guilt, arguments, or removing anyone's choices. This episode is essential listening for anyone tired of making sustainability harder than it needs to be.

Emma introduces research by Flynn et al. titled "Dish swap across a weekly menu can deliver health and sustainability gains" that proves something revolutionary: you do not need to start with the hardest stuff, fight people, or remove choice to achieve meaningful carbon reductions.

The researchers worked with a canteen serving 15 dishes across a five-day week, surveying diners' preferences and identifying where high-carbon meat dishes competed with lower-carbon vegetarian options. The problem was simple: when people's favourite vegetarian meal appeared on the same day as their favourite meat dish, they always chose the meat, meaning the vegetarian option never got selected.

The solution was brilliantly simple: reshuffle the menu. Using what they called an optimisation model, the researchers rearranged dishes so high-preference vegetarian meals no longer competed with high-preference meat meals. No recipes changed. No meat-free Mondays. No lectures. No signs. Just a smarter order.

The results were extraordinary: when the optimised menu rolled out, carbon footprint of meal choices dropped 30%, saturated fat dropped 6%, and crucially, no one complained or even noticed. This is what Emma calls "sustainability by stealth" or "Trojan mouse" approaches that deliver real impact without the exhausting battles.

Emma explains why this matters profoundly for sustainability professionals drowning in negativity. Whenever conversations begin about reducing meat consumption or increasing plant-based canteen options, polar reactions emerge: accusations of "banning meat," claims of being a "Scrooge" after the consumerism-filled festive season, or walls of what-aboutism (what about wind turbine blades, range anxiety, plastic recycling rates).

This negativity is not just draining; it actively kills momentum, derails conversations, and leaves sustainability teams fighting uphill battles daily whilst making minimal progress.

The episode tackles why negativity is so prevalent in climate and sustainability conversations, particularly around politically sensitive topics like food, renewable energy, and flying.

Emma identifies three common negative patterns: what-aboutism (endless objections ignoring any reasons something might work), accusations that sustainability means "banning everything" or "penalising us," and the exhausting cycle of needing to prove your case with facts whilst the other side throws up barriers. This approach misses the point entirely and more critically, stops all forward momentum.

Emma introduces the concept that people need to hear things seven times before they will buy them (a classic marketing principle). If those seven exposures are negative, negative, negative, the battle becomes exponentially harder.

The solution is not more facts, bigger business cases, or harder fights. The solution is reframing towards can-dos, easy wins, and low-friction changes that build momentum rather than requiring martyrdom. As Emma puts it: "Momentum beats martyrdom. We don't all have to be martyrs. We don't have to fight it all every day of the week."

The dish swap research proves something powerful about human behaviour and organisational change. Once people experience success (seeing that changes worked without causing pain), they become far more receptive to the next thing and the next thing. You get much less fight when you have demonstrated friction-free wins.

This builds the momentum that sustainability transformations desperately need but rarely achieve when every change becomes a battlefield requiring enormous business cases and stakeholder management.

Emma provides practical guidance for anyone running schools, workplaces, hospitals, hotels, or events where food service operates. Start with the can-dos, the easy wins, the low-friction changes. Make those rock solid (you are not going back on them), then build.

Emma references the Carbon Literacy Project principle of "meeting people where they are," urging listeners to find something to agree on, no matter how tiny. All the disagreement and negativity gets us nowhere; small agreements, shared values, and micro-actions create the foundation for larger transformations.

The episode offers specific strategies for handling the next wall of can't-dos or what-aboutisms. Recognise it as distraction filling a gap. Keep talking. Ask why (referencing the Five Whys episode from early in the podcast).

Avoid using the word "sustainability" if that helps with your stealth approach (there is another episode on this topic). Find out what people value, meet them where they are, and agree on something. A tiny takeaway, an action, a shared value, or an agreement will get you more traction than a thousand arguments.

Emma issues a challenge for the first weeks of 2026: What can we agree on? No matter how small. This becomes your task. Convert conversations from can't-dos to can-dos. Find the micro-agreement. Build from there.

She explicitly asks listeners to report back on "the most micro conversation that you have converted from a can't do to a can do," emphasising that these small wins are worth celebrating and sharing because they demonstrate what actually works in sustainability culture change.

The episode concludes with Emma's call to "make life a little bit easier" by starting with can-dos, building momentum, and seeing what happens. She acknowledges fighting the can't-do mindset for years herself, recognising it creates "a very angry and anxious and convobulated person."

The alternative is choosing cleverness over constant combat, stealth over confrontation, and progress over perfection. Small changes add up. Friction removal creates momentum. And momentum, not martyrdom, drives transformation.

In this behaviour change and sustainability strategy episode, you'll discover:

1. How menu reshuffling delivered 30% carbon reduction and 6% saturated fat reduction without anyone noticing
2. Why the dish swap research proves you do not need to remove choice to drive behaviour change
3. The three common negativity patterns killing sustainability momentum (what-aboutism, ban accusations, endless proof requirements)
4. Why "people need to hear things seven times" means negative exposure creates exponential barriers
5. How experiencing friction-free success makes people receptive to subsequent changes
6. The power of "sustainability by stealth" and "Trojan mouse" approaches in hostile environments
7. Why finding micro-agreements creates more traction than a thousand arguments
8. How to reframe from can't-do to can-do in the most resistant conversations
9. The critical difference between momentum (sustainable progress) and martyrdom (burnout pathway)
10. Practical strategies for schools, workplaces, hospitals, hotels, and events to start with easy wins

Key Can-Do Mindset and Behaviour Change Insights:

(02:30) The negativity problem: "People need to hear things seven times before they'll buy them. So what if they're hearing negative, negative, negative... Negativity stops momentum dead."

(06:57) The brilliant simplicity: "They surveyed 15 dishes on a five day week, and they looked at where the dishes were potentially competing with each other... They used an optimisation model to reshuffle the menu into a smarter order."

(09:01) The dream results: "The carbon footprint overall of their meal choices dropped by 30%. Saturated fat also dropped by six percent. No one complained. No one noticed. Trojan mouse, sustainability by stealth."

(09:56) Why it matters: "You don't need to start with the hardest stuff... You don't need to fight people, you don't need to remove choice from people. You can make really meaningful carbon reductions by just focusing on small, achievable, often invisible, friction-free switches."

(11:15) Momentum beats martyrdom: "Once people experience success, they see that it worked, it didn't cause them any pain, they're on board... You've got much less fight for the next thing. Momentum beats martyrdom."

(12:15) Start with can-dos: "Start with the can-dos, the easy wins, the low friction, and then start to build... Start with the things you can do. Make those rock solid. You're not going back on them, but start with the smallest thing you can do."

(13:00) Meet them where they are: "Find something to agree on. All this disagreement and negativity is getting us nowhere. Find something teeny tiny, meet them where they are... Those small changes add up and then you get momentum because you've removed the friction."

(13:15) Handle what-aboutism: "The next time you walk into a wall of what-aboutisms, it's just distraction. That's all it is... Let's fill the gap with what we can do."

(13:40) The micro-agreement task: "What can we agree on? No matter how small. A tiny takeaway, an action, a shared value, an agreement will get you more traction than a thousand arguments."

(13:59) Personal transformation: "I fought this for years and it makes you a very angry and anxious person. So let's make life a little bit easier. Start with the can-dos, build momentum and see what happens."

2026 Challenge: What is the most micro conversation you can convert from a can't-do to a can-do? Find one tiny agreement this week. Report back. Share your friction-free wins. Build momentum, not martyrdom.

Remember: a tiny takeaway, an action, a shared value, or an agreement will get you more traction than a thousand arguments. Start with the can-dos, make them rock solid, and watch what happens when you remove the friction that has been exhausting you for years.

Episode Research and Links:

1. Simon Clark on Instagram
2. Nudge By Richard H Thaler
3. Perfect Storm 1: 6 Elements & 5 Whys
4. Is Sustainability Really a Sacrifice?
5. Climate Change Is Everywhere: Why Sustainability Is Closer Than You Think
6. Red Flag Words and Sustainability Conversations: The Trojan Mouse Strategy

Connect With Emma

Website

Email

Emma Burlow - LinkedIn

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In this powerful and eye-opening episode of Straight Talking Sustainability, host Emma Burlow sits down with Sian Cuffey-Young, founder of SAEL Environmental in Trinidad and Tobago, to explore the intersection of food waste, food security, and climate action in Caribbean island states.

With 20 years of experience in waste management and a mission statement that "waste is sexy," Sian brings infectious energy and unflinching honesty to one of the most overlooked sustainability challenges: the fact that our largest waste stream receives the least attention whilst people go hungry.

Sian's journey into food waste began with composting education, which she loved, but she deliberately avoided the broader food waste challenge for years. Everything changed when Trinidad and Tobago released waste characterisation study results showing food and organic waste had increased from 27% to 33% of the waste stream over a decade.

Under those results, a woman commented, "I wish I had some of that food to feed my family." That single statement crystallised Sian's mission.

As she explains, the Caribbean region can feed itself six times over according to the Food and Agriculture Organisation, yet food insecurity persists whilst good food is deliberately soiled with disinfectant and disposed of by supermarkets practicing "soil and dump" policies to avoid liability.

The conversation reveals the unique challenges of sustainability work in island states with limited land space, voluntary rather than mandatory waste separation, and funding heavily skewed towards plastic waste initiatives because "that's where the money is coming from."

Sian describes food and organic waste as sitting "quietly undiscovered in the corner" despite being the largest waste stream, receiving minimal attention compared to highly visible plastics pollution.

This funding imbalance forces social entrepreneurs like Sian to look outside the region for support, connect with international networks, and get creative with limited resources whilst addressing society's most fundamental need: feeding people.

Throughout the episode, Sian candidly discusses the reality of running a social enterprise in the environmental services sector, including experiencing her toughest financial year in a decade of operation.

She describes feeling "forgotten" as a small service-based business competing against larger companies for contracts, constantly applying for highly competitive grants where all Caribbean organisations compete for the same limited funding pool, and questioning whether she should switch from food waste back to plastics where money flows more freely.

Yet every time she prays and asks whether she is in the right space, the answer remains the same: "You need to stay here."

Emma and Sian explore the systemic barriers preventing progress, including the absence of Good Samaritan laws in most Caribbean islands (only the Bahamas and Barbados have them), the lack of food waste legislation making separation mandatory, companies hiding behind liability concerns rather than finding workarounds for food donation, and the political cycle of starting and stopping initiatives whenever governments change.

Sian's travels to China, the United States, and throughout the Caribbean provide perspective on what is possible, from smaller plates in Chinese hotels designed to reduce waste to comprehensive food waste reduction programmes in other regions, but returning home often brings deflation when implementation proves difficult.

The conversation takes an inspiring turn when Sian shares what sustains her through the hard years: her faith, her husband's unwavering support ("the biggest pom poms out of all the husbands in the world"), and wanting her children to see their mother pursue something she is passionate about even when it is hard.

Her philosophy of "don't take no for an answer" comes from years working in mining where she persisted in asking companies to store topsoil near rehabilitation sites rather than three metres down the road, gradually winning them over through patient, persistent education about doing things better.

Sian introduces her "Do Waste Good Food" programme, inspired by a local Trinidad saying: "Better belly burst than good food waste".

Whether in restaurants, at home, or in professional settings, ask "Why would you waste good food?" This simple question, repeated across society, can shift the mindset away from indulgence and gluttony towards recognition that wasting food whilst others go hungry is fundamentally wrong.

Looking ahead, Sian's vision includes securing food waste legislation in the Caribbean (either additions to existing laws or new policy), building connections with hotel associations to address the significant volumes from all-inclusive resorts using large buffets, and implementing strategies like smaller plates that she observed working effectively in China.

She emphasises the critical need for champions inside organisations who can call her name in rooms she is not in, saying "There's this girl on LinkedIn who's been talking about this stuff all the time, has anybody reached out to her?"

The episode concludes with Sian channelling one of her heroes, Barbadian Prime Minister Mia Mottley, whose unapologetic truth-telling about climate realities inspires Sian's approach to content creation.

She is not trying to cause controversy or intentionally raise conflict; she is simply stating facts with intention: people need to do better, they need to not waste good food. Her parting wisdom: "It's not always about doing things better, but sometimes we simply need to do better things."

In this Caribbean food waste and sustainability entrepreneurship episode, you'll discover:

1. Why food and organic waste is the largest waste stream but receives the least attention and funding
2. How the Caribbean region can feed itself six times over, yet food insecurity persists
3. The practice of "soil and dump", where supermarkets deliberately spoil good food before disposal
4. Why funding flows heavily to plastics initiatives, whilst food waste work struggles for resources
5. The critical connection between food waste and food security that national conversations ignore
6. How voluntary waste separation (versus mandatory) fundamentally changes behaviour change potential
7. The challenges of running environmental service businesses versus product-based companies
8. Why champions inside organisations who "call your name in rooms you're not in" are essential
9. The power of challenging people on food waste with one simple question: "Why would you waste good food?"
10. How smaller plates and intentional design reduce buffet waste in hospitality settings

Key Food Waste and Sustainability Insights:

(02:58) Choosing the hard path: "I chose food and organic waste... It sits quietly undiscovered in the corner. It's our largest waste stream, but it's the one that gets the least amount of attention."

(06:49) Following the funding: "There's a lot of focus on plastics... And for me, the reason why there is such a focus is because that's where the money is coming from. That's where the funders want to put their money."

(08:48) The moment of clarity: "I remember there was a lady who posted under the results that, I wish I had some of that food to feed my family. And then in that moment, if I was unclear, I became very, very clear."

(11:20) Soil and dump practice: "They take the good food, they soil it with some kind of disinfectant, bleach, whatever, make it inedible, and then dispose of it. Like, why? Why we do that? It boggles my mind."

(12:45) The missing connection: "The connection between food waste and food security, it's never made with the food security conversation, not ever... The region itself can feed itself six times over."

(22:53) Staying power sources: "My stick-to-itiveness is as a result of a couple of things. One, my faith. Two, my husband... And wanting my children to see their mom pursue something that she's passionate about even when it's hard."

(23:49) Financial reality: "Financially, this has been my toughest year. I have never been in this scenario in the 10 years, even when I just started."

(25:53) Feeling forgotten: "As a social entrepreneur, as somebody running a business that is also about solving an environmental challenge, I often feel like we are... feeling as though only when you have a big company... then you get the access to the resources."

(31:42) Learning through travel: "When I travel, I always remember that I'm a sponge when I travel, I absorb as much as I can... It reinvigorates me."

(36:48) Champions matter: "We always need people inside of their own organisations who can shed light on the work that we're doing... I'm so really thankful for the people who have called my name in rooms that I wasn't in."

(40:06) Don't take no: "Don't take no, don't take your first no for the answer. There is always a workaround. There's somebody else who has, who you can talk to who might have a better ear than you."

(42:24) Do Waste Good Food: "We have a local saying that says better belly burst than good food waste, which means better you eat all of the food than you waste good food, healthy food, nutritious food."

Connect With Sian

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/sian-young-0675a342

Website: www.sielenvironmental.com

Instagram: www.instagram.com/sieltt

Mia Mottley This $1M brand runs on Wix

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In this powerful year-end compilation episode of Straight Talking Sustainability, host Emma Burlow revisits the three solo episodes that resonated most strongly with listeners in 2025, addressing the thorniest challenges facing sustainability professionals today.

From navigating conversations with climate sceptics to avoiding the "evangelical trap" that alienates colleagues, to breaking free from the paralysis caused by knowing business-as-usual will not save us, these episodes tackle the psychological and practical barriers that prevent meaningful climate action.

After training over 800 people in carbon literacy and working in the sustainability sector for nearly 30 years, Emma knows that technical knowledge alone does not drive change. The episodes featured in this compilation reflect the real struggles sustainability professionals face daily: how to respond when confronted with climate denial, how to engage colleagues without appearing to recruit them for a cult, and how to take action when the magnitude of system change feels overwhelming and impossible.

Episode 22: How to Survive a Conversation with a Climate Denier emerged from Emma's own LinkedIn encounter with someone claiming Italy and Argentina were pulling out of the Paris Agreement (information found nowhere except "word on the street"). This episode provides five common denier arguments and five practical survival tips, emphasising that climate denial, whilst noisy, remains exceptionally rare.

Out of 800+ people Emma has trained, only one openly identified as a climate denier. The key insight: save your energy for the moveable middle rather than battling immovable objects, but know how to navigate these conversations when professionally trapped.

Episode 34: I'm Not Recruiting For A Cult tackles the uncomfortable moment when Emma was told by a senior management team member: "If you're going to convince us to change our habits, you're going to have to come up with some better evidence."

This episode dismantles the decades-old sustainability sector habit of trying to prove our point, recruit converts, and convince sceptics through ever-more-impressive graphs and data. Emma argues that leadership is not about convincing people to jump from A to Z, but about meeting them where they are, listening in the corners, and helping them identify what matters to them rather than drowning them in evidence about what should matter.

Episode 40: From Stuck to Starting: How to Move Forward with Your Sustainability Goals addresses the paralysis created by knowing that business-as-usual and incremental tweaks will not solve the climate crisis. Inspired by consultant Liz Gad's experience of consciously buying a refurbished phone only to have the company force-send an unwanted screen protector anyway, this episode explores the anxiety caused by working within systems we cannot individually change.

Emma provides practical frameworks for moving from "I can't" to "what can I do?", starting with micro-actions that build confidence without expecting anyone to achieve system transformation overnight.

Throughout this compilation, Emma's core philosophy emerges: sustainability professionals must stop positioning themselves as evangelical messengers recruiting converts, and instead become curious facilitators who help people connect their existing values to meaningful action.

The shift from convincing to listening, from recruiting to exploring, and from paralysis to micro-progress represents the practical psychology of change that technical sustainability training often overlooks.

These three episodes collectively address what Emma calls the "unwinnable issues" that drain energy and create burnout: the rare but anxiety-inducing prospect of climate denial confrontation, the counterproductive dynamic of appearing to recruit colleagues for an environmental cause, and the overwhelming sense that individual actions cannot possibly address systemic problems.

By reframing these challenges and providing concrete navigation strategies, Emma offers sustainability professionals a way through rather than around these barriers.

In this year-end compilation episode, you'll discover:

1. Why climate deniers, though noisy, represent only 1 in 800+ people Emma has trained
2. The five most common climate denier arguments (and why they're boringly predictable)
3. Five survival strategies from "get the hell out" to "throw the monkey to the room"
4. Why decades of trying to "prove the business case" has created evangelical sustainability professionals
5. How the question "if you're going to convince us..." reveals you've already lost the conversation
6. The critical shift from convincing people to helping them explore what they already care about
7. Why "listening in the corners" reveals more than 25 slides in three minutes ever could
8. How to navigate the paralysis of knowing business-as-usual will not save us
9. The "can't to can" reframing technique that unlocks action without expecting system transformation
10. Why micro-progress beats paralysed perfectionism every single time

Key Insights and Timestamps:

Episode 22: How to Survive a Conversation with a Climate Denier

(02:57) Rarity reality check: "Out of 800 people I have trained in carbon literacy, only one person has openly admitted on a course that he was a climate denier. One out of 800... They are noisy, but rare."

(05:24) The five predictable arguments: "Climate has always changed... The science is still up for debate... It's a hoax... It's going to bankrupt us... Scientists are just in it for the money."

(10:16) Survival tip one: "Don't go there. Walk away. Breathe, smile politely, walk away, change subject... We need energy to do the work that we do. It's precious."

(12:44) Throwing the monkey: "If you're caught in a situation and somebody feels the need to share their climate denial speech with you, give them the room... Use the room, your peers, to release their views."

(15:07) The two-path strategy: "Either you have an opportunity to have a conversation and you can find some common ground or use your gut feel and get the hell out."

Episode 34: I'm Not Recruiting For A Cult

(20:30) The evangelical trap: "For decades, the sustainability sector has been trying to prove its point. Let's face it. They might've called it business case... We've been trying to recruit to a course."

(22:50) Leadership versus convincing: "Convincing people is not a leadership quality. If you have to convince people, you've probably missed the bar somewhere."

(26:38) Stop trying to convince: "You are not recruiting for a cult... You are not the font of all knowledge... Stop trying to convince people. Help them."

(29:07) Listen in the corners: "Listening in a presentation or around a board table with 25 slides in three minutes is probably not the right place... Listen in the corners. That's where the interesting things happen."

(31:11) Be curious not scared: "When I stopped being scared, I couldn't give a monkeys what anyone says to me about climate change anymore... I'm curious. I'm like, why do you think that?"

Episode 40: From Stuck to Starting: How to Move Forward with Your Sustainability Goals

(34:21) The Gordian knot: "When we know deep down that we're working in a system, a man-made system, a capitalist linear profit-driven system... that doesn't meet our values and that our actions, however well intentioned, maybe are not having any meaningful impact. That causes anxiety."

(39:08) The golden handcuffs: "It's a conflicting place and it can cause a bit of anxiety... I read on LinkedIn just this week about a couple of pilots who have written about them leaving the industry... But I think this can also be harnessed."

(41:27) Baby steps framework: "Front up, we've got an issue that business as usual, selling more stuff is not the way we are going to work our way out of this... But this isn't a handbrake turn job."

(43:56) Micro-progress philosophy: "Don't try and go from one to four to one to 20... Every ladder has about 10, 12, 20 rungs on it. So how do you go from rung one to rung two? What is your micro action?"

(46:15) The call to action: "Your task is to go from step one to step two, and then we'll go from step two to step three. And I want you to come back and tell me how you get on."

Featured Episodes:

1. Episode 22: How to Survive a Conversation with a Climate Denier
2. Episode 34: I'm Not Recruiting For A Cult
3. Episode 40: From Stuck to Starting: How to Move Forward with Your Sustainability Goals

Resources Mentioned:

1. Katherine Hayhoe's TED Talk: "The Most Important Thing You Can Do to Fight Climate Change Is Talk About It"
2. 52 Sustainability Hacks (previous episode series for practical micro-actions)
3. Carbon Literacy Project training programmes

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In this practical and inspiring episode of Straight Talking Sustainability, host Emma Burlow sits down with Sanita Garley, Net Zero Transition Plan Lead at B&Q, to explore the often-discussed but rarely-demonstrated journey from setting net zero targets to actually implementing change across a major retail organisation.

With over 20 years in buying and product development before transitioning into sustainability three years ago, Sanita brings a refreshingly commercial perspective to the sustainability challenge, proving that expertise in carbon science matters far less than understanding how to get things done within business realities.

Sanita's transition into sustainability began when she identified a critical gap: the sustainability team worked incredibly hard to engage commercial colleagues, but those colleagues (herself included at the time) simply were not engaging. The pressures of margin targets, sales goals, and daily commercial realities created a barrier that well-intentioned sustainability professionals could not penetrate.

Recognising an opportunity to become the conduit between these two worlds, Sanita approached her manager Sam Dyer (Head of Responsible Business) and requested a chance to try a maternity cover role. Three years later, she now leads B&Q's entire Net Zero Transition Plan, focusing particularly on the notoriously complex Scope 3 emissions from products and vendors.

The conversation tackles imposter syndrome head-on, with Sanita admitting she felt massively out of her depth initially, knowing very little about carbon. However, her commercial mindset proved invaluable: "Give me a target, I'll go after it and I'll hit it."

By reframing carbon reduction as another business objective rather than an insurmountable technical challenge, Sanita demonstrates how non-sustainability professionals can bring fresh, practical approaches to what often feels like an impenetrable field. Her wide remit across B&Q's entire product range (rather than a focused category) presents unique challenges but also opportunities for systemic impact.

Throughout the episode, Sanita emphasises the critical importance of speaking stakeholders' language and respecting their pressures. Coming from the commercial world, she understands when not to have conversations ("it's a really bad time of year, guys") and how to frame sustainability requests in ways that resonate with buyers facing their own intense targets.

This commercial fluency, combined with genuine respect for colleagues' expertise, creates what Sanita describes as a "true exchange" where she relies on product experts' knowledge whilst they benefit from her sustainability guidance.

The discussion explores B&Q's impressive sustainability heritage, including founding membership of the FSC 30 years ago, pioneering peat-free compost, and achieving over 99% certification for wood and paper products. However, Sanita acknowledges that communicating these achievements to customers remains challenging when sustainability often does not resonate as strongly as retailers hope.

Her pragmatic response: "Let us do the heavy lifting for now" rather than waiting for consumer demand to drive every change. This philosophy of responsible business means making sustainability improvements behind the scenes because "you know what's right," even when customers are not yet asking for it.

Emma and Sanita discuss practical examples including the plant pot recycling initiative (collection points in 120 stores creating a closed-loop system), CBAM (Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism) implementation where B&Q leads supplier engagement despite being the only retailer asking for certain data, and carbon literacy training that has now reached over 100 colleagues with ambitious plans for 2026.

The plant pot scheme, whilst not a major carbon reducer, demonstrates how visible, relatable initiatives build cultural acceptance and prove that sustainability solutions can actually work.

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on carbon literacy training and its transformational impact. Sanita herself became a certified carbon literacy trainer, overcoming significant personal doubts to deliver training courses that now fill quickly due to employee demand rather than mandate.

The most powerful validation came when a buyer reported that after training, every supplier conversation that week included questions about targets and scope emissions. This shift from sustainability teams asking buyers to engage suppliers, to buyers proactively raising these topics themselves, represents the holy grail of embedded sustainability culture.

Sanita candidly discusses ongoing challenges including meeting cancellations, last-minute dropouts, and the reality that "I have you ever met a non-frustrated sustainability professional?" However, she frames tolerance and empathy as core job requirements, recognising that colleagues face genuine pressures that prevent instant sustainability adoption.

Looking ahead to 2026, Sanita's priorities include communicating B&Q's sustainability work more effectively (in ways customers actually understand and value), increasing vendor engagement through collaborative supplier conversations, expanding carbon literacy training throughout the organisation, and potentially extending training to store colleagues who have daily customer contact.

Her vision centres on collective movement rather than isolated initiatives, recognising that climate crisis requires shared solutions rather than competitive advantage.

In this retail sustainability and organisational change episode, you'll discover:

1. Why commercial background beats carbon expertise when implementing net zero across retail operations
2. How to identify the "conduit" opportunity between sustainability teams and commercial colleagues
3. The importance of respecting stakeholder pressures before making sustainability asks
4. Why B&Q chooses to "do the heavy lifting" behind the scenes rather than waiting for consumer demand
5. How plant pot recycling initiatives build cultural acceptance despite modest carbon impact
6. The transformational power of carbon literacy training when voluntary rather than mandated
7. Why translating carbon savings into relatable metrics (cheeseburgers not tonnage) drives engagement
8. How CBAM implementation creates supplier collaboration opportunities despite complexity
9. The role of humour, optimism, and tolerance in preventing sustainability professional burnout

Key Retail Sustainability Implementation Insights:

(03:52) The commercial mindset advantage: "Give me a target. I'll go after it and I'll hit it. So I think that is what drives me... if you take away tons of carbon, carbon emissions, intensity, et cetera, end of the day, it's another target we've yet to hit."

(06:27) Speaking their language: "Because coming from that world, you understand their pressures, you learn how to speak their speech as well... It's a really bad time of year, guys. I wouldn't really be having this conversation then because they've got other things they need to go after."

(18:22) Building understanding over facts: "I devote a lot of my time and my energy towards ensuring the people that I engage with understand the logic of what it is I'm trying to do. Because if they don't get it, they won't do it again."

(19:20) Measuring success through action: "I had some great feedback from one of the buyers who came on the training. She said, this week, all the conversations I had with my suppliers, I've asked, have you set any targets? What are you doing in your scopes? I felt so proud."

(29:37) Respecting expertise: "I have colleagues in the buying teams who are absolute experts in their product areas... I have to rely on their expertise to carry me through what I'm trying to propose. And it's great because then it becomes a real true exchange."

(36:21) Responsible retailer philosophy: "What it does say to me then, we as a responsible retailer need to continue doing the heavy lifting for now. One day it will catch up... Let us do the heavy lifting. Let us be the ones who take that on."

(37:32) Doing what's right: "We do it anyway, because you know what's right... We don't necessarily shout out a lot about it, but it's OK. I always say, well, our time will come."

(39:29) Staying power matters: "Imagine if we all walked away. So someone's got to do the job, right?"

(40:22) Making it relatable: "If I start talking about carbon intensity and tons, very dry for them. So we go back and I said, today you have saved the equivalent of 7,000 burgers. Well done you."

Connect With Sanita

Sanita Garley | LinkedIn

Responsible business at B&Q

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In this action-packed solo episode of Straight Talking Sustainability, host Emma Burlow delivers exactly what sustainability-conscious listeners have been asking for: five straightforward switches that make the biggest dent in your personal carbon footprint, complete with referral codes, money-off promotions, and practical bonus links worth £332 to remove every excuse for inaction.

One of the biggest instant switches you can make - though it’s rarely included in carbon footprint tools!

1. £10k saved in a high‑street bank (e.g. HSBC, Barclays) = over 2 tonnes CO₂
2. The same amount with Nationwide or the Co‑operative Bank = less than 0.5 tonnes CO₂

Bonuses:

1. Nationwide: £175 switch bonus
2. Co‑op Bank: £100 switch bonus

Resources:

1. MotherTree’s Carbon Emissions Bank League Table (June 2023)
2. Bank.Green – find ethical & sustainable banks near you

One of the first and most impactful steps:

1. Cuts dependence on imported fossil fuels
2. Reduces carbon emissions
3. Supports the transition to a greener grid

📊 In the UK, renewables in the national grid have grown from 14% to 41% in just one year.

Resources:

1. UN & Carbon Brief: Five reasons why switching to renewables is smart economics
2. Octopus referral link: £50 credit

Small changes at home = big savings.

1. Smart meters: save £50+ per year and give real‑time control over energy use
2. Principle: If you can’t measure it, you can’t manage it
3. Insulation: pays for itself quickly once you start tracking usage
4. Thermostat: set to 18°C (WHO guidance for healthy adults; slightly higher for very young/old)
5. Don’t idle—switch off when not in use

Resources:

1. Octopus Energy: Energy Saving Tips save £157 a year

A plant‑rich diet can dramatically cut your footprint:

1. Reduces daily carbon emissions by 1,300g (≈ a 4‑mile drive)
2. Cuts overall footprint by 51%

Resources:

1. Veganuary: How plant‑based diets reduce carbon footprint
2. Athlete inspiration: Novak Djokovic, Lewis Hamilton, Venus Williams, and many more thrive on plant‑based diets

Knowledge is power. Most participants say the training opens their eyes to actions they hadn’t considered.

1. Courses available globally via The Carbon Literacy Project
2. Lighthouse Sustainability runs 4 open courses a year
3. Use code STS50 for £50 off any future course in 2026

💡 Even better: ask your employer to host a course for staff. We’ll handle everything—drop us a line at [email protected] to set up a call.

✨ Total bonus potential: £332!

Practical, impactful, and rewarding—these hacks make cutting carbon easier than ever.

Key Carbon-Cutting Actions and Resources:

(02:30) Banking bombshell revealed: "Your money is invested, albeit in your bank, your pension, your ISA, your mortgage even, and that institution will invest that money on your behalf. £10,000 in a high street bank like Barclays or HSBC could carry a carbon footprint of more than two tonnes."

(04:53) Switching incentives unpacked: "If you're in the UK, switching to Nationwide currently, there is a £175 bonus. Wow, I mean, that's massive, isn't it? And the Co-op is a hundred pounds. So if that's not a sweetener, I don't know what is."

(07:18) Renewable electricity simplified: "Switch to renewable electricity. One of the first things we all need to do if we're not already is switch to renewable electricity in our homes because it cuts our dependence on fossil fuels, reduces emissions, and it supports that vital transition to a greener grid."

(09:40) Thermostat reality check: "The World Health Organisation suggests that 18 degrees is healthy for adults. I will admit, that took me a couple of years, because I am a warm bug. This year, I'm really happy to say we're around 17 and a half, 18 degrees. Just watch your bills drop when you turn that thermostat down."

(11:03) Plant-rich diet demystified: "A plant-rich diet can reduce your daily footprint by 1.3 kilograms, which is the same as avoiding a four mile drive in a petrol or diesel car. Over time, it can cut your whole footprint from food by about half. If anyone tells you that plant-based diet makes you weak and grey and ill, just remind them that Novak Djokovic, Lewis Hamilton, Venus Williams and a load of other athletes credit their success to plant-rich diets."

(14:00) The confidence gap exposed: "What I want to share with you is coming on a course forces you to question some of the restrictions and barriers that stopping you from acting. It gives you time to think about your core values, what you actually want to do in life, how you actually want to act, the difference you actually want to make."

(15:34) The brutal truth about barriers: "Over 80% of people are concerned about climate change, particularly in Europe and the UK. But there's a value action gap. People have that value, but they don't act. And primarily because they are worried, and I'm almost embarrassed to say this, they are worried about what people think."

(17:00) The final call to action: "Five switches, the biggest ones, I think. £275 to get you off the sofa and onto the laptop and acting on it. And a big dent in your carbon footprint. Let me know how you get on, and if you do all five of them, I'll have you on as a guest and we can talk about how it was for you."

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