Straight Talking Sustainability

In this episode of Straight Talking Sustainability, Emma welcomes Lucy Hawthorne, founder of Climate Play, to unpack how play—especially using LEGO—can be a powerful tool in making sustainability engagement more effective and enjoyable. They discuss the neuroscience of play, overcoming cynicism, and practical facilitation techniques to unlock creativity and connection in sustainability journeys.

Key Topics

• Lucy Hawthorne's journey from environmental campaigning to play-based sustainability facilitation 02:11
• The limitations of traditional moralistic and fear-based sustainability approaches 02:46
• Introduction to LEGO Serious Play as a facilitation method 06:45
• How using LEGO unlocks new ways of thinking, connection, and imagination 08:52
• The science: neuroscience of play and embodied cognition 08:56, 19:51
• Overcoming organizational resistance to play-based methods 12:34, 14:50
• A live micro LEGO exercise exploring the "Three Horizons" future-thinking tool 19:24
• How facilitation via play can level hierarchies and increase inclusive participation 26:36
• The importance of imagination and creating positive, strengths-based visions of the future in sustainability work 31:03
• Expanding play-based facilitation across sectors—business, academia, coaching, and more 35:09
• Playfulness as a mindset: responding to uncertainty and experimenting beyond the status quo 38:21

Standout Quotes

• "What if sustainability wasn’t so miserable?" — Lucy Hawthorne 13:56
• "The LEGO is the method, but the mindset is about being willing to experiment and see opportunities." — Lucy Hawthorne 38:21

Connect with Lucy Hawthorne

• Website: climateplay.org

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Not Sustainable

In this episode of Straight Talking Sustainability, Emma discusses the emotional and practical impacts of climate change amidst record-breaking heat in the UK. She dives into the ways misinformation and social media can fuel anxiety and helplessness, and highlights how the People's Emergency Briefing provides both vital information and a sense of community. Emma reflects on her own skepticism about community events, the key lessons from the briefing—including the economics, health, and security implications of climate change—and actionable steps listeners can take to get involved and inspire real change.

Key Topics

• Climate anxiety, doomscrolling, and the emotional toll of environmental crises
• Misinformation on social media and the importance of community
• The People's Emergency Briefing: format, impact, and key speakers (celebrities, scientists, military strategist, NHS doctor, energy economists, and more)
• The economics of the UK energy transition: why renewables make sense
• Health impacts of climate change, with input from NHS professionals
• Security and global threats posed by the climate crisis
• The importance of shifting from just facts to community-led action
• Practical ways to get involved: attending and hosting screenings, workplace discussions, and community-building

Resources & Links

• People’s Emergency Briefing: nebriefing.org
• Map of screenings (mainly UK, with some international)
• Information on how to host your own screening
• Workplace version coming soon (about 30 minutes)
• Write to your MP: Follow the call to action to urge Parliament to debate a National Emergency Briefing, modeled on COVID updates
• Lighthouse Sustainability: lighthouse-sustainability.co.uk
• Connect with Emma on LinkedIn Emma Burlow | LinkedIn

Actions You Can Take

1. Attend a Screening: Find a local showing of the People’s Emergency Briefing or watch online.
2. Host Your Own Event: Bring the film to your school, workplace, church, or community group.
3. Spread the Word: Share the film and the podcast with friends, colleagues, and on social media.
4. Engage in Positive Community Building: Use social media as a tool for connection rather than division.
5. Invite Global Perspectives: If you're outside the UK, reach out to Emma to share how climate change is affecting your region.

Connect & Share

• Send your ideas for future episodes to Emma
• Share the episode with anyone who’d benefit from it
• Subscribe, rate, and review the podcast on your preferred platform

Let's keep learning and taking action together!

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Not Sustainable

In this episode of Straight Talking Sustainability, Emma welcomes longtime friend and experienced sustainability strategist Joss Tantram, Partner at Terrafiniti. Together, they dive into the evolution of corporate sustainability, the practical realities facing professionals in the field, and the challenges of driving real change within organizations.

Joss Tantram, Partner, Terrafiniti

Joss is a lifelong environmentalist and sustainability practitioner and is founding partner of Terrafiniti, a pioneering sustainability consultancy.

Joss has held senior roles in both WWF-UK and the World Business Council for Sustainable Development (WBCSD) and worked to develop the theory and practice of corporate sustainability in organisations across the world.

At WWF-UK in 2001, he was one of the first to propose the idea of sustainability as a strategic value creation concept and conceived and authored publications considered as source books on the business case for sustainability and sustainability and corporate strategy.

From 2019 to 2022, Joss was a Director in WBCSD’s Redefining Value team, where he was lead author of WBCSD's "Future Proof Business" guide, co-author of WBCSD's "An architecture for sustainable value transition within social and planetary boundaries" and since leaving WBCSD Joss lead and co-wrote their 2025 publication “Managing uncertainty in sustainability disclosure”.

He is passionate about sustainable change and retains hope in the capacity of humanity to become true stewards of this precious planet.

Joss is the author of the Towards 9 Billion book series – presenting big, playful, hopeful ideas for a sustainable, equitable future.

Joss consistently aspires to be a failed musician, and to that end has been writing and recording songs which very few people hear.

When not trying to foment global change he enjoys family life, walking, cycling and has an eternal fascination with springtime in bluebell woods.

Key Discussion PointsCareer Journey & Early Sustainability Work

• Emma and Joss Tantram reminisce about their long history together, starting in the late 90s in sustainability roles (01:03).
• Joss Tantram shares insights from his time at WWF UK, building the Business Education Unit and pioneering work on the business case for sustainability (02:43).
• The seminal work "To Whose Profit? Building a Business Case for Sustainability" and its follow-up are highlighted (06:46).

The Business Case & Organizational Challenges

• Discussion around how sustainability is often counter to traditional business narratives (07:40).
• Reflection on why embedding sustainability in strategy is still a challenge, despite years of effort (08:19).
• Joss Tantram talks about the tension between operational and strategic approaches in companies, and the persistence of sustainability as a "lone ranger" role (15:11).

Current Trends in Sustainability

• Joss Tantram explains Terrafiniti's current work: strategy, double materiality, skills development, and advising on avoiding greenwashing (10:24, 12:18).
• Growing customer and regulatory pressures are driving more companies to act and request sustainability information (12:34).
• A focus on building a “coherent narrative” to unite scattered or siloed sustainability initiatives (14:02).

ESG Headwinds & Maturity

• The cyclical nature of ESG focus; things go in waves, but progress is evident over the decades (21:03).
• Lip service to sustainability is declining—more companies appreciate the strategic importance of the function (24:42).
• The critical listening skills needed for sustainability professionals, and the importance of adapting to the organization's stage of maturity (26:36).

Change Management, Moti vation & People

• Sustainability roles require a complex set of skills: technical knowledge, people skills, and change management (29:56).
• Facts alone don't drive change—motivation, narrative, and personality types matter (39:01).
• The significance of recognizing subcultures within organizations, and how to adapt language and approach for different teams (41:01).

Practical Takeaways

• Find leverage points: Identify nodal points in the organization (e.g., procurement, marketing) that can drive outsized positive impact (37:05).
• Coherent narrative: Develop an integrated sustainability story to avoid siloed or disjointed efforts (14:02).
• People & change skills: Cultivate adaptability, understand motivations, and tailor engagement to different audiences (29:56).
• Testing the path: Roadmaps are valuable, but stay open to opportunities for action as they arise (32:34).

Resources Mentioned

• "To Whose Profit" reports—findable on the Terrafiniti website or by searching "Whose Profit WWF" (07:02).
• Terrafiniti articles, resources, and the "Towards 9 Billion" book series (43:10).
• The Sustainability Insights Group networking community (23:06).
• Learn more about Joss Tantram and Terrafiniti: terrafiniti.com

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Not Sustainable

This podcast tackles the often overwhelming world of sustainable practices with straightforward advice and relatable insight.

Key Topics Covered

• Overwhelm and where to start with sustainability at work or at home
• The importance of mindset: "putting your green glasses on"
• Visible actions vs. invisible actions for sustainability
• How small changes shift social norms and influence others
• The underestimated impact of talking about and sharing your choices
• Tangible & easy sustainability actions you can take right now

Actionable Takeaways

1. Begin with Visible Changes

• Use a reusable coffee cup and water bottle.
• Choose walking, cycling, or public transport over driving.
• Reduce food waste and try more plant-based meals.
• Visible changes subtly shift social norms (05:49).

1. Tackle the Invisible (But High Impact) Actions

• Switch your bank to one with ethical investment policies.
• Review and update your pension to an ethical or low-carbon fund.
• Change your energy provider to a green tariff.
• These background actions move far more carbon and money than daily visible actions (08:03).

1. Share What You’re Doing

• Talk about your green choices with friends, family, and colleagues.
• Don’t hide or apologize for sustainable choices; sharing normalizes these behaviors and builds momentum (12:19).
• Community connections, whether local or at work, create a warm glow and reinforce positive changes.

1. Mindset Shift

• Don’t see “everything, everywhere, all at once” as pressure—it means there’s endless possibility.
• You can’t get it wrong if you try, learn, and keep going (18:45).
• Change happens through people, not just policies (19:49).

Show Links

£50 credit for Octopus Energy

Bank Green Tool

52 Simple Sustainability Hacks E-Book

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Not Sustainable

In this episode of Straight Talking Sustainability, Emma welcomes Charly Cox, Executive Director of Climate Change Coaches and a pioneer in the field of climate coaching. Together, they explore the psychological aspects of driving sustainable change in organizations, the unique challenges faced by sustainability professionals, and practical strategies for overcoming barriers to effective climate action.

• Charlie Cox's journey from coaching in West Africa to leading a team of climate coaches 01:01
• The psychological barriers to action in climate and sustainability work 02:00
• Why being a good leader is often more important than having large budgets in sustainability projects 03:21
• The "stuck" feeling experienced by many sustainability professionals, and the overwhelming scope of their roles 06:37
• The technical vs. people/communications skills required for effectiveness in sustainability roles 07:04
• The organizational challenges: lack of executive sponsorship and belief leadership 07:54
• The importance of coaching skills for sustainability professionals—especially introverts 10:12
• How climate change coaching differs from general business coaching 11:25
• Dealing with existential dread, burnout, and organizational contempt 12:27
• The power of using strengths-based and asset-based coaching approaches 17:31
• Shifting the identity from “knowledge holder” to “thought partner” 19:48
• Why self-regulation and deep listening are key for influencing others 18:06
• Strategies for maintaining belief and hope in the face of setbacks 14:20
• Insights into the Green Transition Coach course and its modules (building ecosystems, challenging mindsets, working with barriers, emotional regulation, and building ownership) 25:00
• The risks of becoming subservient or stuck in "servant mode" 27:43
• Mindset shifts, overcoming imposter syndrome, and changing organizational perspectives 31:05
• Practical communication tactics for influencing stakeholders and navigating difficult conversations 32:24
• Tips for making change appealing: make it familiar, reversible, and easy 47:41

Key Takeaways

• Sustainability is a people-centered job: Technical skills are important, but communication, influence, and psychological insight are critical for success.
• Belief leadership matters: Executive sponsorship must translate to active participation, not merely delegating responsibility to underpowered teams.
• Coaching skills enable action: Learning to ask powerful questions and adopting a strengths-based approach helps "stuck" professionals and organizations move forward.
• You don't need to be the font of all knowledge: Focusing on being a “thought partner” and building organizational belief in change is more effective than relying solely on technical expertise.
• Make change accessible: Breaking actions into small, reversible, and familiar steps can help overcome overwhelm—both for sustainability professionals and organizational decision makers.

• Find out more about Charlie and Climate Change Coaches
• Lighthouse Sustainability and the Beacon newsletter

If you enjoyed this episode, please share it, rate, and review to help others find the podcast.

For more straight-talking sustainability advice, subscribe to the show and join us next week!

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Not Sustainable

In this episode of Straight Talking Sustainability, Emma explores the limitations of competitive mindsets in tackling systemic challenges like climate change. Drawing on the concept of the Prisoner’s Dilemma, Emma illustrates how organizations acting in self-interest by hoarding knowledge or refusing to collaborate actually end up moving slower and increasing costs for themselves and the sector as a whole. She emphasizes that issues such as secrecy and siloed efforts lead to fragmented results, ultimately weakening both individual organizations and collective impact. Instead, Emma challenges listeners to reconsider the dominant business paradigms rooted in scarcity and competition, arguing that these are outdated and fragile when it comes to solving urgent, complex problems.

Key Topics

• Leadership and the Race Against Climate Change
• Emma discusses the urgency around climate action but questions whether the competitive, race-like mentality is actually hindering meaningful progress 00:30.
• Prisoner’s Dilemma in Sustainability
• The classic dilemma is used as a metaphor for what happens when organizations protect their own interests at the expense of collective progress 02:40.
• Downsides of Competition
• Emma illustrates how competing in silos leads to duplication of effort, wasted resources, and slower progress—commercially and environmentally 03:31.
• Real-World Collaboration Example
• Emma shares a partnership story with Vicki Mistry, showing the benefits and challenges of genuine cooperation instead of competition 06:09.
• Scarcity vs. Abundance Mindset
• The problems of business models based on scarcity of knowledge are unpacked, with a strong call to switch towards sharing, open training, and empowerment 08:47.
• The Train the Trainer Model
• Emma introduces a pyramid, scale-through-empowerment approach: embedding expertise in client organizations, rather than trying to own all the knowledge 12:45.
• Getting Beyond Ego
• Focusing on the mission—climate impact—over egotistical or short-term wins; sharing knowledge leads to more robust businesses and greater long-term success 09:00.

If this episode challenged your thinking, please share it with a colleague or partner.

Subscribe, rate, and review to help more people discover Straight Talking Sustainability.

Next week: Another guest and more hard-hitting insights into sustainable business. Until then: keep challenging and stay curious!

prisoners-dilemma

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Not Sustainable

In this episode of Straight Talking Sustainability, host Emma welcomes Annie Beavis to discuss navigating difficult conversations in sustainability, building resilience during economic turbulence, and supporting each other within the industry.

The episode highlights the work of Not Sustainable, a collective focused on impact, and dives into the realities of driving change, especially in medium-sized enterprises.

Key Topics

• The origins and mission of Not Sustainable (01:39)
• Economic pressures and resilience in sustainability roles (03:25)
• Changing industry attitudes—showcasing sustainability less and its consequences (04:26)
• Marketing, messaging, and sales as fundamental skills for sustainability professionals (07:53)
• Strategies for having difficult conversations and pushing back constructively (07:25)
• The value of leveraging previous experience (finance, procurement, social housing) in sustainability roles (16:00)
• Importance of trust-building and self-awareness for gaining traction (34:09)
• Insights on imperfection, authenticity, and working with boards (25:50)
• Advice for new entrants in sustainability: take your time, build trust, and don’t carry all the weight yourself (40:09)

Quotes"It’s not about perfection, but about building trust and staying resilient—business is always hard, sustainability shouldn’t be treated as an optional extra." — Emma (18:36)"Ground yourself in business reality first, because if you carry an expectation of perfection, leaders are less likely to be honest." — Annie Beavis (27:46)Takeaways

• Build trust before pushing difficult conversations
• Resilience and adaptability are crucial as the sustainability agenda fluctuates
• Use your background and diverse skills to open doors in sustainability roles
• Don’t strive for perfection—progress is about small, authentic steps
• Support networks like Not Sustainable can help practitioners maintain perspective and avoid burnout

Next Steps

If you enjoyed the insights from Emma and Annie Beavis, please:

• Subscribe and leave a review
• Share this episode with colleagues or friends working in sustainability
• Join the conversation on LinkedIn and check out the Beacon newsletter for more straight talking sustainability content

Resources & Links

• Connect with Annie Beavis on LinkedIn
• Visit Not Sustainable: Learn more about the collective, their projects and join the community
• Lighthouse Sustainability: Subscribe to the Beacon newsletter

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Not Sustainable

In this solo episode, Emma discusses the importance of building capacity, capability, and resources—what she analogizes as "building an army"—to effectively drive sustainability initiatives in businesses and organizations. She shares her personal journey into carbon literacy training, the challenges of scaling training across large organizations, and the development of her “Train the Trainer” model as a solution. Emma highlights key milestones, such as reaching the 100th trainer mark, and emphasizes the power of collaboration, sharing, and building resilient networks for greater impact.

Key Topics

• Why engaging people (not just increasing knowledge) is crucial for successful sustainability
• The “knowledge-action gap” and how training addresses it
• Emma’s journey into carbon literacy and the evolution of her training approach
• The challenges of reaching scale and maintaining quality at speed
• The importance and impact of the “Train the Trainer” model
• The upcoming milestone: 100th trainer to be trained
• Commitment to diversity and accessibility in training
• The value of creating a supportive, collaborative community of trainers

Milestones and Opportunities

• Upcoming Train the Trainer course in May; the 100th place is free (regular price £750-£850; discounts available)
• Over 1600 employees trained so far, across major organizations and sectors
• Emma has recently become a Carbon Literacy Consultant, achieving one of the highest standards in the field

01:00 — The Challenge of Organizational Buy-In

Emma discusses the gap between sustainability strategies and actual employee engagement. Notes that many companies have good intentions, but most employees are not truly engaged or understanding the strategy.

01:58 — Knowledge-Action Gap & People as the Key

Emma explains that the primary barrier is not knowledge, but getting people on board. Introduces her experience as a carbon literacy trainer and the "train the trainer" model as a solution for scale.

03:36 — Personal Journey into Carbon Literacy

Emma recounts becoming carbon literate in 2021 and realizing how it addressed the gap between what people know and feel confident acting on. Describes the initial steps to develop and deliver a course in 2022, including rapid growth in demand.

04:41 — Working with Prominent Businesses and Growing Demand

Emma mentions clients such as BT, Openreach, Kingfisher, and B&Q. Highlights the accelerating demand for training and the challenge of scaling up without compromising quality.

05:40 — The Need to Scale: Train the Trainer Approach

Emma explains the practical problem of expansion, needing multiple trainers to meet the needs of large clients such as NHS and BT. Emphasizes the move to a "train the trainer" model in 2023 to build training capacity and ensure quality.

06:38 — Why a Trainer Network Matters

Emma stresses that without building a pool of trainers, progress is confined to silos. Describes efforts to develop a comprehensive foundational training that equips people with skills, not just knowledge.

09:05 — Creating a Trainer Community & The Next Steps

Emma describes creating ongoing support such as a WhatsApp group for trainers and plans to formalize this into an academy to support individualized trainer pathways, maintain quality, and serve clients’ diverse needs.

10:02 — Milestone: Approaching 100th Trainer Trained

Emma announces an upcoming milestone: training the 100th "train the trainer" participant. Mentions a free place for the 100th trainee and acknowledges Farah Lodhy’s contribution to course development.

10:45 — Making Training Accessible & Diverse

Emma discusses the financial investment (typically £750-£850 per course), discounts for people between jobs and those from diverse backgrounds, and international reach (training in 25–30 countries).

11:36 — Recognition as a Carbon Literacy Consultant

Emma shares a personal milestone: becoming a carbon literacy consultant, placing her among a small group at the top of her field with the Carbon Literacy Project.

12:12 — Broad Impact: From Consultancy to Large-Scale Training

Emma reflects on moving from consultancy (reaching limited people) to training (reaching 1500–1600 across major organizations), and the importance of scale and replication for meaningful impact.

13:24 — The Vision: Building a Lasting "Army" of Trainers

Emma sets a new target of training 1,000 trainers over the next decade, emphasizing the importance of quality, resilience, mutual support, and rapid, reliable client response.

14:09 — Collaboration and the "Stronger Together" Motto

Emma stresses collaboration over competition, aiming to pull the training community closer and share resources, because sector-wide progress requires collective effort.

14:40 — The Pyramid: Trainers Make the System Robust

Emma uses the "pyramid" analogy: without enough trainers, widespread sustainability training cannot be sustained; with them, the structure is solid and far-reaching.

To deliver lasting sustainability impact, invest in empowering and supporting your people with the right skills, knowledge, and confidence—because real change happens when everyone is on board and working together.

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Not Sustainable

This week, Emma is joined by sustainability sector stalwart and optimist Mark Shayler for a deep dive into his book You Cant Make Money From a Dead Planet. Mark shares his career journey, the challenges and lessons of working in sustainability, and his recent personal health scare.

The conversation tackles why businesses must embed sustainability at their core, the importance of systems thinking, and the danger of reducing sustainability to PR or compliance.

Mark and Emma discuss the sector’s obsession with targets, why missing them isn’t a scandal, and how real progress means looking forward, not just reporting on the past.

Key Topics

• Mark Shayler’s career journey: from environmental science to council, consultancy, Asda, and beyond (01:19)
• Why disaster is not always personal and the importance of resilience (13:06)
• What businesses get wrong about sustainability strategy (25:59)
• The pitfalls of putting sustainability in PR, marketing, or as just compliance (26:04)
• Reconciling economics and ecology—the two are deeply connected (21:19)
• Targets, failure, and the opportunity for a ‘mass awakening’ in the industry (32:04)
• Circularity, systems thinking, and the consumer’s role in change (40:10)
• The need to focus on system and government change, not just individual action (48:03)

Mark’s Book: You Cant Make Money From a Dead Planet

• Written to reclaim his authority as an environmental scientist and offer practical pathways for businesses from “zero to net zero” (15:10)
• Challenges the sector’s myopic focus on totem issues (e.g., plastic) rather than systemic impact (16:28)
• Advocates for democratizing sustainability—making it accessible beyond a middle class concern (19:21)

Key Takeaways

• Sustainability should be at the heart of business—not a marketing bolt-on or compliance tick-box.
• Hitting (or missing) targets isn’t the main thing: direction, transparency, and a willingness to improve matter more (32:04).
• True change comes from systems, not just individual guilt—push for policy and industry reform (48:03).
• The world is facing interconnected crises—now is the time for businesses to wake up and act.

Resources & Links

• Mark Shayler’s book: You Cant Make Money From a Dead Planet [Available from the usual outlets]
• Connect with Mark:
• LinkedIn: Mark Shayler
• Website: markshayler.com
• lighthousesustainability.co.uk – subscribe to The Beacon newsletter

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Not Sustainable

Welcome to this week's episode of Straight Talking Sustainability! Host Emma Burlow takes inspiration from "The Gambler" song to explore when to push, pause, pivot, or fold your sustainability efforts within your business, particularly when sustainability is being deprioritised.

Key Topics Covered

Sustainability's Changing Environment

• The landscape for sustainability in business has shifted dramatically, with economic, political, and leadership pressures reshaping priorities. warns that sticking to outdated strategies risks "extinction" and stresses the importance of adapting to survive (04:37).

Survival of the Fittest

• Drawing on the analogy from a previous episode, reminds listeners that survival isn't about being the strongest, but best fitting the environment as it changes (03:33). The ability to evolve, morph, and pause is emphasized as vital.

Knowing When to Hold Your Cards

• Sustainability professionals often feel compelled to defend their initiatives relentlessly. The episode argues that sometimes, holding your cards—pausing a project or delaying an initiative—is actually the winning move (06:30). Pushing sustainability when it's unpopular can lead to burnout and resistance.

Building Trust and Embedding Sustainability

• This period of pause is reframed as an opportunity to build trust within an organization.
• For stepping out of the "sustainability silo," truly listening to colleagues, and aligning with their current business needs (09:03). This foundational work makes sustainability more likely to succeed when momentum swings back.

Consistency vs. Passion

• The episode stresses that consistency, reliability, and adaptability trump intense passion. Long-term influence is built by showing up, being practical, and creating value, not just by pushing sustainability for its own sake (18:31).

Takeaways and Action Points

• Pause and read the room before pushing sustainability initiatives.
• Focus on trust-building by understanding and supporting other business priorities.
• Use this downtime to review and simplify sustainability goals, dropping unowned or resistant projects (16:26).

Reflection & Practical Tools

• Download the episode's reflection sheet to analyze your current blockers, identify your true "cards," and decide what to push, pause, or release (11:14).
• Revisit earlier podcast episodes for tips on root cause investigation ("Five Whys"), creating joy through initiatives, and activating key players—not just the whole workforce (19:08).
• Dig deeper into what's really holding you back (beyond standard excuses like "too busy" or "budget cuts") (11:24).
• Evaluate which of your sustainability projects are high-resistance, unowned, or not delivering value—these may be your "fold" cards (15:10).
• Steer your focus to areas where you can realistically build trust and influence in the current environment (10:24).

Remember: Sometimes folding or pausing isn't failure—it's adaptation. Consistency and value create influence for the sustainability journey ahead!

Expand Reflection sheet

Not Sustainable

The Gambler

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Not Sustainable