Talking Moves

In this special episode, we talk to two artistic directors about the current funding crisis ravaging our sector.

Back in May, when the Greenwich Dance team was having funding applications repeatedly rejected, we were relieved to see renowned theatre director Nicholas Hytner's Guardian article "The arts in Britain are teetering on the brink. Here's my plan to save them". Here at last someone was talking about the dire situation the arts are in and, just as importantly, offering up with ideas about how to do something about it.

And it turns out someone else had also been thinking constructively about arts funding models. Way back in 2020, Tarek Iskander, Artistic Director of Battersea Arts Centre, proposed a National Arts Service, using his experience of working in the NHS as a starting point.

As we begin to see a general election on the horizon and the possibility of a new government starts to feel possible, we invited them both to talk us through their intriguing provocations. We ask at this time, when we are emerging from a pandemic, suffering the effects of a cost of living crisis and dealing with the repercussions of Brexit, how do we inject more funding into the cracks appearing in the arts? And as we navigate our own precarious funding situation, we ask if not now – when?

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

 

Recording date: Wednesday 19 July 2023

In this episode, we talk to Valerie Ebuwa and Kwesi Johnson about making positive change.

Valerie Ebuwa sets about to ‘make shit happen’. She has written articles about ‘how to grow wings’ and ‘knowing your aesthetic’ and has urged readers of her blog to ‘lead with your strongest foot to ensure a solid journey to the skies’. Kwesi Johnson believes creativity and innovation are the highest uses of intelligence. “It begins as a thought and becomes reality, that is the power of imagination and desire,” he says.

So this was always going to be an enlightening conversation! We start off, as we often do, by finding out how their dancing journeys began and we probe Valerie more about why she thought her late start (18 years old) was “perfect timing”.

Both artists urge anyone engaging with them – either through their published writing and journalism (Valerie) or mentoring and consulting (Kwesi) – to ask deep questions of themselves. In doing so they both respectively believe you can ‘unleash your creative genius’ and so we dig deeper: discovering more about the ways they do this for themselves and others and the gifts learning about yourself in this way can bring. Both Kwesi and Valerie are entrepreneurial thinkers and doers and busily forging new ways of working creatively for themselves across multiple genres and art forms. We talk about their innovative projects and initiatives past and present, their perceptions of the funding model and its limitations and (best of all) their suggestions about how artists can break themselves free.

Both are unafraid of calling out behaviours. Valerie was recently published in The Stage, challenging the role of the critic and the generalisations often made when writing about dancers of colour. And Kwesi, way back in 2003, was pioneering hip hop dance theatre and putting people straight about their (often misguided) perceptions of it. In fact, Kwesi has long been a trailblazer and we find out a little more about his exploration of digital technology for dance classes which he investigated, not during the pandemic as the rest of us did, but back in 2012!

Finally, we talk about problem-solving and the essential but often under-valued role artists have in building a better functioning (economic as well as creative) world.

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Kajsa Sundström, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

 

Recording date: Thursday 12 May 2022

 

Host recorded at Creative Kin studios

In this episode, we talk to Charlotte Vincent and Robert Clark about parenting in the arts.  

Becoming a parent changes the lives of all who do it, but artists often need to make huge decisions about how they will balance the responsibility of caring alongside a profession that requires touring, weekend and evening work and situations where ‘WFH’ just can’t come into play. So how best to navigate these changes?  

We start off by finding out what Charlotte and Rob’s dancing lives had looked like pre-children and then probe a little deeper into the considerations that came to the fore, such as touring abroad as they took on caring responsibilities. Charlotte talks us through some of the policies her company has adopted to better support parents which have come out of the need to support her own family as well as those of her workforce. We talk about the various ’stages’ we go through as parents depending on whether children are pre-nursery or in school and how this might help or hinder our working schedules. Indeed the topic of scheduling is pertinent and we discuss how companies can better do this to support the needs of families. 

The effects of the pandemic come into so many of our conversations on this podcast and this one is no exception. We chuckle about video-bombing during those homeschooling periods but also reflect upon how parents have become more visible during the last few years, our nurturing responsibilities no longer kept so separate from our working lives.  We also compare some of the case studies in Vincent Dance Theatre’s report of 2009, A Dancers Perspective, to those of today and wondered whether we have made as much change as we would like…

The subject of power arises – between genders but also between organisations and freelances and how we can use our ’powers’, when and if we have them, as a force for much-needed change. We talk about speaking up about our responsibilities within employment negotiations, of organisations taking the time to find out about their employees’ infrastructures and support networks in order to understand what flexibility is there (or not there) and discuss the work that inspirational bodies in our sector such as Dance Mama and Parents & Carers In Performing Arts are doing. 

And finally, we reflect on the creativity being a parent can bring and the changes it has made to the choreographic and artistic approaches of both Charlotte and Rob.  

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Kajsa Sundström, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

 

Recording date: Friday 22 April 2022

In this episode, we talk to Rosie Heafford and Neus Gil Cortés about making accessible work.  

Today, there probably isn’t a company or organisation that would say they didn’t want to make accessible work, and yet there are still people excluded from it: be they performers, collaborators or audiences. We talk to two artists about their approaches to making work accessible and get some tips about how we as a sector might do this better. 

We begin by asking our guests to talk a bit more about the work that they do before jumping right in to discuss the almost ‘buzzword’ accessibility. What does the word accessible really mean within our art form?  

We acknowledge that it is really difficult, if not impossible to create work that’s accessible for everybody and hear about two very different approaches and pieces of work that Rosie and Neus have made as artistic directors and choreographers.  

We move on to discuss the audience experience – how do you remove barriers and make the work exciting for all? We talk about different approaches of making with audience members being part of the process from the start, and how creating different versions of the same work gives audiences choices in what, and how they would like to experience it. 

Naturally, the conversation reflects on the pandemic and how practices for creating had to change in the studio. We discuss how this allowed for a more collaborative process and even opened new doors to creating work for the digital stage. 

We speak about the importance of describing what the experience is going to be like for audiences, listening to what people need and the importance of taking the onus to make needs clear away from disabled people. 

And finally, we talk about what it means to be a disabled leader, what it means to the work and how it affects fellow collaborators and audiences. 

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Kajsa Sundström, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

 

Recording date: Friday 22 April 2022

In this episode we talk to Marla King and Adam Benjamin about environmental responsibility.

Many of us have long recognised our role in protecting the planet but perhaps the last two years of the pandemic – when we lived in our parks and gardens, saw our skies fill with birdsong and our roads quieten – has unlocked a willingness for more of us to take action. But what does action look like for our sector?

We start off by discussing what had changed for us in the past few years, how we came to notice our damaging behaviours (such as extensive travel) and how the climate crisis has intensified in urgency. We discuss social justice within this and how everyone is not equally responsible. We reflect upon the pressures on the younger generation of dancer who seem to be socially and environmentally aware (in ways we weren’t years ago) but who cannot be held solely responsible for evoking change. We also reflect on the fact that the training Marla and other dancers of her generation have had, even recently, has seemed to sidestep any references to environmental responsibility as they prepared for dancing careers.

We find out about Adam’s ecological project The Dancer’s Forest and how Marla entrepreneurially trained to be a carbon literacy trainer alongside starting a podcast A Little Bit of Lagom. In fact, business and environmental responsibility overlap a few times as we contemplate what a world might look like if we conducted our dancing business in hyperlocal settings rather than trying to ‘tour the world’ and how casting changes if the criteria of ‘local’ is put before other aspects.

And finally, we reflect on the changes we could make as individuals and as a sector, how wellbeing is interlinked with environmental awareness and how technologies can offer some solutions (but also contribute to more problems we have yet to fully unpick…)

A conversation which raises more questions than giving answers perhaps, and a starting point as we all reflect on how we can all work greener.

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Kajsa Sundström, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

 

Recording date: Wednesday 20 April 2022

In this episode, we talk to Harriet Waghorn and Kamala Devam about their experience working across different genres of dance.

As dancers we often train in streams of dance genres – often there are expected routes mapped out for us and aesthetics we are expected to achieve. It’s therefore refreshing to find artists whose work transcends those divides, fuses aspects of styles together to make new aesthetics, new vocabulary. What does that mean in terms of training for themselves, as well as making work, working with dancers who may not have the same experiences?

We begin by asking our guests how they came to find dance – both Kamala and Harriet mention their mothers and how they facilitated their first steps on their journeys. We discuss their training and how they came to build their experience across the genres of contemporary, ballroom, Bharatanatyam, acrobatics and contact improvisation.

We ask our guests why are they drawn to the styles in which they work, and how stepping away from the usual framing of genres and fusing other styles relates to their audiences. we find similarities that may not be obvious such as the constant flow and trust that is needed in both contact improvisation as well as ballroom – and how important the connection with your partner is.

We move on to discuss their own teaching practices and what they are looking for in dancers when they choreograph work. The importance of training is a huge part of any dancer and artists life and we discuss how they train across such different genres of dance.

Finally, we are intrigued to hear what’s next for our two artists on their journey working across genres.

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Kajsa Sundstöm, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

 

Recording date: Monday 28 March 2022

In this episode, we talk to Deborah Light and Tom Hobden about building audiences for your work.

We make art for people – and if we have no audience, what is the reason for the work? How do we then bring audiences to the work? How do we introduce dance to people who haven’t had an opportunity to discover it? And what do we want of them other than to be spectators?

We begin by asking our guests more about their work and the work itself – Deborah making work in Wales with the company Light, Ladd and Emberton as well as being an independent maker and discussing the part installation, – part dance performance Seeds & Bones which incorporates both personal as well as audience stories.

We then move on to discussing the work of UNIT – where Tom Hobden is artistic director and how the pandemic shifted the very local audience to one that is online and from everywhere. We speak about how UNIT is making dance for the “everyday people” and what that means.

A big question that comes up is – what comes first? Do we make work with our audiences in mind, or do our audiences come to our work? We discuss the need to “make things”, regardless of the outcome and the audience participation, and how as makers we need to practice making things without the pressure of who will see it and who will like it.

We discuss how we invite and allow our audiences to participate in the work, and talk about a very special moment being one of a very few number of people experiencing a show.

Finally, we discuss whether everyone does want to dance or take part in dancing – is it for everyone? And who decides what dance is, and what dance isn’t?

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Kajsa Sundström, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

 

Recording date: Tuesday 22 March 2022

In this episode, we talk to Karthika Naïr and Eva Martinez about the role of dramaturgy.

An artist’s creation space is a rather special place to inhabit. It’s vibrant, exciting, tense sometimes nail-biting. And it always feels to me to be an honour to be there. But by the same token, it comes with much responsibility particularly if you are invited not as an onlooker but as a contributor. One role, increasingly in use within the creation process is the role of the dramaturg. But what exactly is this, how do you become one and what benefit can a dramaturg bring to an artistic process?

We start off by discussing what a dramaturg actually is and Karthika shares a clarifying analogy we here at Greenwich Dance will reuse again and again about an elephant…

Our guests have held over the expanse of their careers multiple roles within the creation process and Karthika and Eva clarify some distinctions between writers, producers, dramaturgs, dance scripters and librettists to help us understand the complexity of the work that goes on behind the scenes. We also discover a new word, fabulist, which again will be reused again and again.

We talk a lot about the creation space and the dynamic within, about permissions, boundaries, feedback and respecting both the process and the work itself as well as the collaborators who make it. We weave a basket with our threads of conversation as we touch upon trust and the ways trust can be built (particularly this past year in remote settings), about whether prior relationships need to be established (or not) and whether all artists or only those using narrative would benefit from dramaturgical support. And we discuss, as we often do, the use of language and whether the words ‘authority’ or ‘power’ are ever at play in these settings. Eva makes the point that she has been an activist within an institution for many years and Karthika states that she would never work with anyone she could not disagree with.

And finally, we talk about the importance of acknowledging the plurality of the creative team in crediting and the need to break away from the ‘primacy of the single narrative’, which is so often prevalent in the way that work is presented and marketed to audiences. As ever there seems so much more to discuss and dig into.

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Thursday 22 July 2021

In this episode, we talk to Katie Serridge and Nafisah Baba about Breaking Through.

This episode was put together at Katie’s request, who took the initiative and emailed us offering to talk about the challenges she has been presented with as a young artist trying to break into an industry that effectively shut down only minutes after her graduation. Nafisah Baba, BBC Young Dancer 2017, joins us to share her observations of the world of work thus far.

We start off by discussing how Katie and Nafisah came to dance, the courses and training they embarked upon to prepare them for the industry and the opportunities they had to start making or performing in work pre-Covid. We reflect back on lockdown 1.0 and how it felt for them both returning to childhood bedrooms as adults.

Most performers find a need to supplement their earnings with what Nafisah described as a ‘Muggle job’ and Katie talks about how for her these dried up as cafes and theatres closed. We discuss how they now think about ‘training’ which might once have meant daily class but is now weighted towards the maintenance of strong and positive mental health. We talk about resilience, networking, the pleasures and pitfalls of social media and how best to manage it.

But these are two remarkable young women and, presented with the challenge of a global pandemic, they both set about finding creative ways to manage. Both are already making their mark on the world through their art, are politically and globally aware and have voices that are starting to be heard. Katie, along with a collective she formed at Laban, has already begun making films and sharing these in festivals and Nafisah talked about how she has enjoyed experiences of working with artists such as Akram Khan who have inspired her to break away from years of codified training.

This is no ‘woe-is-me’ episode. This is an episode filled with hope, love, care and possibility. Yes, we talk about what the industry is demanding of young dancers right now but most excitingly we talk about how these young dancers are starting to push back against that expectation and make changes in a world that, let’s be honest, is ready for the shake-up.

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Thursday 5 August 2021

In this episode, we talk to Nancy Hirst and Dan Canham about Co-creating with Communities.

Building cultural communities is at the heart of Arts Council England’s Let’s Create strategy and for many organisations, this kind of work is at the very heart of what we try to do. But it’s not easy… it takes time, patience, diplomacy and care to do well. And sometimes, the funding and expectations of stakeholders around us, plus perhaps our own over-eager enthusiasm causes us to make mistakes. So we ask our guests to tell us more about how we might do this work better.

We start off with vocabulary… what and who do we mean by the all-encompassing word ‘community’ and indeed what do we mean by co-creation? None of us feel very comfortable with either terms but find ourselves using them anyway and so we explore the reasons why we do and the complexities that arise for us when we do.

We talk a lot about telling stories and the ethics of doing that, the juxtaposition of local stories linked to national conversations, of being authentic, of being of a place or an outsider to it and of finding a common purpose. We delve into Dan’s epic gig-like work Session which he undertook in partnership with Empire Sounds and Steppaz Performing Arts in Tottenham, and we look at the ways in which Nancy and her company Icon build theatre around local tales such as The Chatham Witch and The Silk of 1000 Spiders with her Medway communities.

Both Nancy and Dan share some of the tools they use, show us where some of the traps and pitfalls can lie, and muse on the complexity of this work which we all agree felt different to simply ‘seeking out stimuli’ and mining material. The issue of ethics comes up for us, as does legacy and how we can continue to support a process even after the final curtain on the show has come down.

And finally, we reflect on the joy – the moments where the stars align and the work comes together and the magic truly happens…

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Wednesday 29 September 2021