Talking Moves

In this episode, we talk to Vicki Igbokwe and Shane Shambu about Celebrating Diversity with Dance.

The two artists we invited to take part in this episode each make extraordinary, distinct work using an original voice. We ask them about where their work takes its influence, how they have been able to make it, find audiences for it and how free they are to experiment with it.

We start off by exploring Vicki and Shane’s beginnings – discovering how they found dance and where and how they learned their craft. Then we touch upon the first of many similarities between these two inspirational artists – their three ‘e’s – empower, entertain and educate… and how these same values infiltrate into every decision they make about the work they craft and the people they aim to serve through the making of it.

I share my perspective as a white woman, watching Vicki’s The Head Wrap Diaries and Shane’s Confessions of Cockney Temple Dancer, and how I found myself gaining another perspective on the world. I ask our guests “is this intentional – are you trying to share an aspect of your cultural heritage? Or is there something else driving the telling of these stories?” The answer is complex and simple at the same time. Our guests tell stories about life as they see it and experience it. The want and need for the sector, myself included, to stereotype artists and ‘stamp’ their work with a label we think we understand is something that has to change if we are ever going to let artists be truly free to make the work inside them.

We talk about authenticity and freedom to explore… how free did Vicki and Shane feel to explore movement language and stories and how necessary or helpful is the concept of ‘authenticity’?

Finally, we talk about curiosity and conversation and the ways in which both artists float between cultural boundaries and expectations, how they draw the audience into their work and just how much they dislike the post-show talk!

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Wednesday 22 September 2021

In this episode, we talk to Isaac Ouro-Gnao and Donald Hutera about the role of Feedback & Criticism.

Every artist making work and putting it out there into the world is inviting an opinion of some kind: be that from their immediate collaborators, their performers, the raised eyebrow of a parent or mentor, their audience, or critics. Feedback is so useful to the artistic process, but it’s hard to take at times. And perhaps also, hard to give. In this episode we talk to two artists to find out a bit more about the art of critique, its relevance today and how we can, perhaps as an industry, do it better.

Our guests have a foot in both camps – working as artists but also as published journalists. So as people of words we start off by defining some… analysing the words ‘review’, ‘feedback’ and ‘criticism’ and establishing whether they were interchangeable or if there were notable differences. We decide that perhaps feedback is for artists and reviews serve as documentation or for audience information. It was the word criticism everyone feels a little more uncomfortable with…

Donald and Isaac both share instances where they had felt criticised in print, and how they dealt with conflicting opinions. We talk about ethics: permission, recognising objectivity is impossible, that there is no right or wrong (only opinion) and that sometimes feedback (and reviews) are not actually wanted. We conclude that the hunger to know more about artists and their work and dialogue are both key to useful criticism.

The subject of diversity of voices threads its way through our conversation and we discuss ways we might better achieve a multiplicity of voices within the industry of dance journalism that is in itself diminishing.

But perhaps most importantly we talk about responsibility – and what those who have a voice can do to shine the spotlight and give over some space to voices that are lesser heard.

You may like to dip into the following articles before or after you listen…

The Stage feature: Race and Theatre Criticism We Need Critical Change

The Stage feature: Race and Theatre Criticism On Writing about Race Equity’s Recommendations for Theatre Critics

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Wednesday 21 July 2021

In this episode, we talk to Annie Hanauer and Erion Kruja about Creating an Identity.

For many dancers it’s a dream to secure a long term contract within a prestigious dance company, but there comes a time when it just feels right to move on. So what happens when you fly that nest – leaving the safety of a regular wage, daily class, regular performance opportunities and the companionship of like-minded company members? How do you build that support infrastructure for yourself – at the same time as having to find the funding, secure commissions, and rebrand as an independent?

We start off by finding out more about life with Candoco (from Annie) and with Hofesh Shechter Company (from Erion) and how they came to make the decision to leave. We discuss the support infrastructure and development opportunities they had whilst still a member of the company and what that looks like now that they are making work independently.

We talk a bit about the type of work a body wants to make when it has been a tool for other choreographers for so long and both of our guests offer suggestions for what’s needed to better develop and support independent dance makers of today. As we very often do, we talk about language definitions and discuss the feeling of living across both an ‘emerging’ and ‘established’ description. We talk about the implied hierarchy of dancers and choreographers (the inaccurate expectation that everyone wants to ‘graduate’ to becoming a maker) and this leads us onto broader discussions about labelling where Annie shares the frustrations she experiences of being boxed up into the ‘disabled dancer’ category, and what it’s taking for her to mentally and physically break out of that box. Annie sent us some further thoughts on the subject – don’t miss her PS at the end of the episode.

And finally, we talk about the differences between the offer here in the UK and internationally and what we can be doing as dance organisations to better support the lifeblood of our art form.

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Friday 23 July 2021

In this episode we talk to Alesandra Seutin and Temujin Gill about making work with young people.

With this series we have been particularly interested in delving into choreographic approaches to different types of work – we have looked at work outdoors, for families, for digital technologies. But what happens when your cast are all under 25? How do choreographers harness that young potential, amplify the stories they want to tell and create work that is relevant to young people of today? And once made… who comes to see it?

Alesandra and Temujin kicked us off by reflecting upon their own dance journeys and why, as young people themselves, dance spoke to them. Alesandra, as Guest Artistic Director of the National Youth Dance Company 2020-21, (a baton she took from previous AD Russell Maliphant during the pandemic) talked us through her approach to creating work using a series of Zoom residencies with a cohort of dancers from all over the country. Temujin spoke about his own recent process of creating a choreographic framework for young people with his company Grounded Movement, which is now available on the ArtsUnboxed platform for others to use and talked through his exploration of a concept he describes as ‘cultural amnesia’.

Both share very practical tools and techniques for drawing out the stories and personalities of the dancers they work with and how they celebrate differing technical abilities, dance styles and experiences. They each shared ideas for warm-ups and ice breakers, task activities and their music choices and reflected on how, indeed if, their choreographic process differs any from how they work with professionals.

We talk about the hole Covid has blown into the lives of this generation of young people and how the action of showing that we genuinely believe in them: in their abilities, their stories and their values, is going some way to repairing some of the tissue damage Covid has brought about.

Finally, we consider the audience for the work and whether we imagine it being enjoyed by a wider community than simply families and friends.

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Thursday 6 May 2021

In this episode we talk to Claire Cunningham and Jorge Crecis about choreographic approaches.

The life of a choreographer is a complex one and on this podcast the reliance artists have on portfolio careers has come up in conversation a number of times. So we invited two inspirational and entrepreneurial choreographers to come and talk to us who have both branched out into a myriad of directions and in doing so forged their own unique aesthetic, process and mindset.

We begin by discussing the breadth of careers both Claire and Jorge have enjoyed and as part of that discussion find out a bit more about the things that make them tick, how they get ideas and most importantly how they record and remember them given that dance is sometimes a hard thing to pin down.

Jorge and Claire then talk about aesthetic and how that has, for both of them, become a by-product of a much deeper process of the making journey. We reflect upon Jorge’s work and whether or not that stretches people to their limits and he makes the ever so valid point that whilst it does, it does so within a container of safety. This is echoed by Claire who also looks imaginatively at her own body and her ‘four feet’ (referring to her body and crutches) and the way in which she works with those crutches in a process of care and careful attention.

Both have, coincidently, made works called 12 (Twelve) and so we use those works to delve deeper into the processes used in making them. For Claire this was a rare opportunity to work with other dancers, rather than as solo work, and she shares the thoughtful ways in which she approached the making of that work with both disabled and non-disabled dancers. Interestingly we discover that they both use play, rules and problem solving to create structures within which to make the works they make.

Looking beyond the making process, we then explore other areas of the dance landscape that they inhabit… we talk about Claire’s Choreography of Care symposium planned for next year and Jorge’s methodology Towards Vivencia which supports dancers to stay at peak performance which can now be accessed online.

Finally we touch upon the big ideas that move them, the imprint they want to leave on the world and the questions they have of it.

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Thursday 29 April 2021

In this episode we talk to Liv Lorent and Arthur Pita about creating dance for families.

Once upon a time, dance for children and families was perhaps seen as lightweight, if indeed it was seen at all. But pioneering leaders in the sector, such as Emma Gladstone and her children’s dance festival Offspring at The Place, set about to change that – spotlighting high quality work and the wonderful artists making it – and in doing so raising the status of this magical genre.

Liv and Arthur, both of whom meet on the Venn diagram when it comes to their imaginative use of traditional fairytales, discuss the careful choice of story and the way they relate that to lived experience as well as to reflect the complex society we live in. We talk about the artful balance of dark and light and how neither of them is scared to shy away from the sad or scary parts of a story but rather the faith they have in children to interpret this and see sad and happy as parts of life.

We talk about the creation process and the involvement, for Liv, of community casts within the research and development as well as the presentation of the show. Arthur and Liv both talk animatedly about the collaborative way in which they make the work alongside creatives such as dramaturgs, writers, designers and musicians and the importance of narrative and pace perhaps over and above choreography which oftentimes comes second and is layered upon this robust structure.

And we talked about audiences – discussing who this work is really for – adult or child? And whether it’s The Little Match Girl, or Ballo Arthur Pita, they have really come to see. This led us to muse upon whether digital tools and technology might offer the potential to widen access and strengthen the bonds between company and a (growing) audience.

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Monday 26 April 2021

In this episode we talk to Roswitha Chesher and Alexander Whitley about digital dance and technology.

Both started their careers with dance training – film maker and photographer Roswitha Chesher at Trinity Laban and choreographer Alexander Whitley at the Royal Ballet School – but they’ve both moved into exploring dance in different formats – on camera, screen and using digital technology.

Whilst it’s true to say that over the past year many of us have been on a crash course when it comes to digital and dance, in contrast these two artists have been working within the digital sphere for years and so we decided to invite them on to talk a little bit more about what it is that excites them and find out how we can all learn to explore and use digital technologies more effectively.

We begin by discussing the journey we have been on as a sector which has evolved pretty quickly from the kickstart reaction of many to share back-catalogue documentation to the kind of immersive experience offered recently by Rambert with Rooms. Given their familiarity of the digital space and their enviable access to high quality equipment we also probed a little into whether they themselves had felt creative during covid and how they had reacted either individually or as a company to the challenges of the past year.

Alex shares his interest in technologies such as virtual and augmented reality and the potential this is offering him and his company to explore new ways of making and presenting work. And Roswitha shares some of the lessons learnt from thirty years making dance on screen. She reflects upon how of late so much of the material she has been asked to work with has been made on the very small (mobile phone) screen. Together we reflect upon how the luxury so many of us experience of having this technology in our back pockets can be deployed creatively when used with thought, care and skill.

We talk about the ability to curate an environment when making theatrical work and how in digital this translates to much more nuanced experiences such as directing the focus and the eye. And we talk about the ways in which technology and dance on screen can be used in hybrid formats to create completely new cultural environments which are no longer as simple as a choice between theatre or TV…

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance Production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Tuesday 20 April 2021

In this episode, we talk to Frauke Requardt and Luca Silvestrini about making work for the outdoors.

Artists have long been making work to animate places and spaces and there is much for them to consider when they do. The work has to sit within the setting, engage with passersby who perhaps are not expecting, or even asking, to be engaged with. But with the pandemic having closed theatres down for the best part of 2020 and now into 2021, many artists and venues are looking to the outdoors as part of our road to recovery.

Frauke and Luca reflect back on over 15 years of making work for the outdoors and talk about the differences in both developing work for particular spaces as well as touring with pop-up sets and ‘venues’. They speak about the experiences of the audience member – of drawing them into the narrative without having the tools at their disposal such as dimming lights and swishing curtains which are often used to create the atmosphere for the performance within traditional theatre settings. They talk about the audience who buy a ticket for and choose to see work in non-theatrical settings and those that stumble across it – and how both the performers and the choreographer prepare for those eventualities.

Coincidentally at time of recording, both artists were about to go into the studio the very next week to start work on new outdoor productions. Each gave us a sneak preview of what we can expect from their exciting new shows… and shared with us their own processes of making work in a pandemic for a world tentatively emerging from it.

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Wednesday 3 March 2021

In this episode we talk to Avatâra Ayuso and Anna Williams about women and dance.

Within an overwhelmingly female profession, it still feels largely led by men particularly in creative and managerial roles. How has this come about and most importantly… what can we do about it?

We discuss how being a woman has shaped Avatâra and Anna’s own careers and those of other women they see, we discuss the work both of them are doing through their initiatives and teaching programmes and the mechanisms they use to empower young female dancers. Avatâra observes that women are more often than not infantalised (which comes up again and again as we unpick the topic through the discussion) and Anna discusses the careful use of language as she works with young and impressionable dancers.

Together we contemplate the unfairness of the dance sector gender make-up and drill down into why achieving a gender balance really matters. Avatâra draws upon years of study and reflection – gathering case studies from powerful dancing women across the world and Anna contemplates the hierarchical nature of the balletic institutions and together we ponder whether those companies have in a way become a metaphor of the sector – lines of excellently trained female corp de ballet, some highlighted male soloists and the choreographic genius at the top.

The three of us reflect on what stands in the way for women and predictably the subject of parenthood, along with the impact that Covid has had and the learning we might take from this past year about how we could do things differently. Together we reflect upon whether there are changes to make in ourselves which could progress the movement, alongside thinking about the changes we hope that others might look to make.

Finally we reflect upon some of the recommendations coming out of the recent Women in Theatre Forum Report such as quotas and training, and discuss whether these really are the tools we need for change.

In this episode we talk to Cath James and Kenneth Olumuyiwa Tharp CBE about their transition from stage to management.

This particular topic was inspired by a listener, Laura, who got in touch to ask for some support as she sought to make a similar career change. She felt frustrated as she navigated the unfamiliar terminology, high expectations (and low pay) of a sector she knew so well from one angle but less well from another. Did she really, she asked, need to start right back at the beginning?

Kenneth and Cath both agreed that life experience and the ability to recognise and seize an opportunity when it arises have been just as valuable as any training they have undertaken. They each walk us through their inspirational journeys from esteemed company dancers to senior management and consider the point upon which they decided to hang up their dancing shoes for good. They share experiences of creating roles for themselves along the way – in the establishing of new services or supporting friends with touring - rather than waiting for roles to present themselves. They share anecdotes of when their performance skills have come into play and considered how being a performer has shaped who they are as a leader today.

Both talk so very honestly about the skills they had to learn… quickly… and whether their impressive performance CVs’s added kudos or doubt from the sector around them.

Recording date: Wednesday 24 February 2021

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious