Talking Talmud

When a man revokes his betrothed's vow, is he removing the vow or weakening it? How does the father's revoking impact the vow? Plus, the timing of the betrothed's revoking or upholding the vow. Plus, how that timing works with the father's involvement, including if the father dies.

Another quick December 31 request for support for Talking Talmud. || Introducing the halakhit pertaining to a husband and father being able to revoke a girl or woman's vows. Revoking being a different treatment of the vow than a sage's annulling a vow. And with recognition that this treatment of a woman's vows may be troubling. The daf introduces the most complicated case of a betrothed young woman, under the auspices of both her father and her husband at the same time, and both are needed to revoke her vow. Plus, the biblical verses that provide the sources of these cases.

Note: Plug for 2022 year-end contributions to Talking Talmud (details and link to contribute on FB or WhatsApp). Two mishnayot: First, an opening to release a person from his vow against eating meat, for example, if he can be asked: had you realized that would include Shabbat and holidays, would you have made this vow? Note that a vow that is partly nullified is wholly nullified. Likewise, exceptions to the general vow can be used to undermine and nullify that vow. Also, the possibility of undoing a vow because of the fear of shame to the family members because of his vow, then that same vow can be dissolved. Plus, one who takes a vow on false premises has not made the vow (not that the reality changed, but the vow was based in something false to begin with). And what if the reality changed? That well may be room to dissolve the vow. Plus, the challenge of the relationships and the value of undoing vows because of them.

Dissolving a vow that pertains to another person can only be done in the presence of that other person. With a proof from Moses and Jethro - and Midian and Egypt. Plus, a story about Nebuchadnezzar and his shame before Tzidkiyahu. Also, 3 mishnayot: openings to annul a vow, beginning with new developments. For example, a vow to keep out if certain property because of a dog or a snake, with the subsequent discovery that the dog/snake died, and the vow is no longer relevant. Plus, an opening to dissolve a vow because if the injunctions in the Torah against bearing a grudge (if the vow is rooted in a grudge). Also, the case of a man vowing that his wife won't benefit from him without realizing he'd need to pay her ketubah - and then be left with nothing. Had he but known, he wouldn't have made such a vow, of course.

Chapter 9. With a new mishnah, introducing the process of removing, annulling, dissolving a vow. The question arises as to how one demonstrates regret, or what makes a person regret a vow. For example, feeling bad before one's parents, before God. Plus, other future developments that lead to regretting the past vow - so many vows would never be made if the future were known as to the impact. Note R. Eliezer's apparently more lenient view with regard to vows here. Also, the need to go to get a vow annulled with a story to the sage... Which, again, raises the concern of messing with all vows. And how much shame might get in the way of needing to annul the vow - with regard to the risk of lying. Note also the mixed feelings when it comes to nedarim, with an apparent goal of taking care with our speech.

What happens when one swears off wine for the year and then the year turns out to have an extra month? What happens if the person swearing off the wine specified Adar in his vow - but didn't specify Adar I or Adar II, then what are the implications for the length of the vow? Also, what happens when the vow specifies Pesach? Given the presumption of wine on the first night if Pesach. Plus, Ezra's decree about garlic. Plus, other vows specifying meals, etc. Do we hold people to this kind of extreme language?!

Several stories about Rabbi Tarfon, including his reputation, and how he made use of it. [Who's Who: R. Tarfon] Also, harvesting as a time that defines or limits a vow - with mention of several different harvests. Likewise, referring to the rainfall as a way to define time (we didn't know it would happen when we recorded, but this day in Israel is a representative very rainy day).

The Gemara continues its discussion around nedarim of time and how do we define a section of time. Why is the fig harvest considered the end of summer?

Chapter 8. When one vows to make wine off-limits, but with a time factor - today, this week, this month, and so on - it's off-limits until the end of that same day, week, month, and so on. But "a day," "a week," "a month" means for the specific length of time. Also, applying these details of time to other situations of vows - "today" vs. "one day," for example. Plus, avoiding the language of nedarim.

Concluding the discussion of whether something prohibited can lost that status. Recall the ability to annul a vow! Plus, the implications of a terumah-hullin mixture, and the possibility of reversing its status. Also, what happens when that which is planted has already been tithed? When it grows again, do you have to tithe again? When do you cross the line into taking too much?