Talking Talmud

What happens when a bridegroom claims that his new virginal bride seemed not to be a virgin after all? Particularly when there's already strife between the couple. And the complicated situation is reminiscent of the story of David Batsheva, where what seems an act of adultery isn't used to keep them apart. Also, further discussion of what happens if the new bride is not a virgin, and the implications for the ketubah. And how the same halakhah may have been applied in different ways in different places.

The 7 Berakhot in full. Plus, a practical account of weddings where sages said 5 or 6, and not 7. What is their disagreement? It would seem about the nature of the creation of humanity. Also, for the 30 days following the wedding, the couple has the status of newlyweds, which has bearing on the groom's ability to make the wedding blessing - that happiness is his portion. And in some ways, for a year. But when does that joy begin? Betrothal? Wedding preparations? Part of the concern is whether a wedding might be cancelled, despite betrothal.

The prohibition against the wedding night for a virgin to be on Shabbat, and permitted on a festival. But why is it permitted then? How does it apply across the board to everyone? Plus, a specific case about a historical case. [Who's Who: Helene the Queen] Also, Sheva Berachot - the blessings of a wedding that require a minyan for recitation. But how do we know that there's a requirement to have 10? It's learned from a biblical verse. But it's a machloket which verse that is. Plus, the time of these Sheva Berachot.

Still fighting with the tech. So many apologies!! || A disturbing daf - where we begin our discussion with the Gemara's case of prepubescent marriage (on Shabbat). The case is fairly straightforward - in terms of injury to the virgin on Shabbat, and Beit Hillel and Beit Shammai dispute how long the couple can rely on her prepubescent state to prevent concerns of the impurity of Niddah. Similarly, the case of a girl who is the right age/stage for puberty, but hasn't yet menstruated. Also, a discussion of the bridegroom who is exempt from saying Shema on the wedding night (from Wednesday night through to Saturday night, if the bride is a virgin and they haven't consummated the marriage) - a case that has its parallel on Berakhot 16b, and Rabban Gamliel who did say Shema. Note how the framing of the discussion is very different.

Anne here: Apologies for the late release, and in a new masekhet, no less! My phone seems to be the culprit. Obviously, I'm working to rectify. || A challenging daf... Strange in terms of Hilkhot Shabbat and unintended consequences - and the virgin bride. Specifically, breaking the hymen would be a epind on Shabbat, but why can't their first night be Saturday night? Why do "calculations" or planning get in the way? Some kinds of thinking and planning, even on teaching, are indeed acceptable on Shabbat. And yet... enough things block the shabbat marriage. What are the sages' intentions in exploring the unintended act in Shabbat - and the wedding? Also, a piece of Aggadah - acclaiming the righteous people for accomplishing even more than God, in creation. Including what people need to do to be righteous, and also why this passage is here in this dad's context.

When the time of severe mourning or a "chuppat niddah" changes the wedding night. Similarly, how her standing as a virgin can make a difference. Also, a focus on mourning and the leniencies (if there are any) for the bride or groom in mourning.

Talking about... divorce. In the context of unavoidable circumstances. For example, when a husband gives his wife a conditional divorce, to prevent her from being on limbo, or needing yibum. Also, some historical context. The sages stipulations regarding day of marriage was from the time of Ezra - because before then, the court met every day, and any woman could marry on any day. The sages or elders themselves delved into every detail pertaining to the wedding. Plus, an answer to why the virgin couldn't marry on Sunday. Also, what happened during a time of danger (oppression)? And how a Friday wedding for a virgin might risk breaking Shabbat. And how the Roman oppressors took the virginal brides (which seems to contradict the mishnah...so why is it the mishnah??).

Introducing the tractate of Ketubot, including the question of defining virginity. And diving right in to the first mishnah - what day of the week is reserved for virgins to marry, as compared to widows? What if there are interferences to this schedule? From the bride's niddah status to the groom's illness to the bride's illness - at what point does his obligation to support her (as per the terms of the wedding) kick in? When an unavoidable circumstance takes place, maybe he is obligated - but also, how unavoidable unpredictable does the interference need to be?

Another daf of mishnayot (3 of them), and then closing Masekhet Yevamot. First: Testimony as to a person's death can be seen in candlelight or moonlight, or hearsay from a "bat kol," a "heavenly" voice (in this case, where the voice is heard without finding the speaker later, in contrast to other bat kol stories from the heavens). Also, a story from Neharda'a because of intercalating the year... When the question of testimony from one witness was raised for discussion - and R. Yehudah ben Bava's view vs. that of Rabban Gamliel the Elder. Plus, a group of leviim who go traveling, leave their sick friend at an inn, and accept the innkeeper's testimony regarding the friend's death, but it's a little more complicated to accept her as reliable, and the discussion then is why her credibility is in question at all. And finally, closing the tractate: how scholars teaching Torah beings peace to the world, yes, really.

Opening with another mishnah on the identification of bodies - specifically, if one fell into water. Depending on the conditions, one may well be presumed to have survived such a fall. What's the difference between bodies of water that clearly have boundaries and those that do not? Also, the story of the daughter of Nechuniyah the digger of cisterns, who fell into the Great Cistern, and how R. Hanina ben Dosa knew she was fine, though it took her some hours to get out. His reasoning doesn't quite hold up, as R. Abba points out to him. Plus, a final mishnah, which points to the casual comments of women or children or even non-Jews, as to the death of a given person.