Tankespjärn with Helena Roth

Without rules and guidelines, would anarchy ensue?

Isn’t that what we (me, you, others?!) believe? Or are taught to believe?

That anarchy is the natural outcome if there aren’t any rules.

I don’t think it necessarily would be.

Perhaps because I don’t think we, humans, function without rules. That is, even if there weren’t any rules, or they were removed, new ones would evolve. Because we are group animals, belonging together, rules will develop from the interactions of all involved.

“…we are taught not to listen. We're taught not to hear what the system that is me is actually signaling.” ~Helena

So when (or if) rules are enforced in such a way where I am not taught to listen within, to sync the rules with my own experience/feeling/sensation, what happens then? And how can I implement this in my parenting?

Özlem is faced with some uncomfortable tankespjärn more than once during this, our second conversation, and his ability to sit with that discomfort honors him.

“So much of parenting is the reactions of the parent. Now, we put it onto the kids, but it is our discomfort. It is our fear. It is our anxiety. It is our beliefs.” ~Helena

Me trying to control my firstborn in so many ways –what she wore, how she acted, what she said, how she reacted– was the spark that made me seek out a therapist, because I finally faced the truth of being a different parent than I wanted to be.

Writing this, I cringe inwardly because it sounds horrible. Makes me want to hide my face between my hands, or better yet, delete and start over, writing something completely different in this episode description.

But owning what I’ve done, how I’ve been, as a parent, the good and the bad alike, is my current parenting-project. I am breaking the cycle of blaming and shaming myself for what I’ve done as a parent, owning it instead. All of it. So there’s quite a lot of discomforting tankespjärn for me too in this episode. Perhaps you will find some as well?

Links:

Find Özlem Tan on LinkedIn

Den inre kompassen, blog post in Swedish

Radical Learning with my friend Rebecka Koritz

An article on traditional Inuit parenting

A most memorable Christmas Eve

Mandell spent a week in Senegal before we met up for our second conversation, and I was following his adventures on Instagram. When I came across a video of him walking just a few meters behind two big lions, I almost choked!

I mean, those are some seriously respect-inducing animals, for sure!

So of course, I ask Mandell about this, eager to find out what it felt like (hearing him speak of it I am reminded of when I was a young child wandering off from mom or dad, repeatedly looking back over my shoulder to make sure mom/dad is still there, and that I am not doing something I’m not supposed to. Mandell being the child, and the lion trainer being the parent.) which has us head straight into the territory of inner struggles with ethical dilemmas.

‘It's definitely an internal struggle of enjoyment at whose expense.’ ~Mandell

Like zoo’s, fly fishing, shopping for sneakers or clothes, opting out of being a car-owner, and whether or not to fly to Scotland (and elsewhere).

Mandell spoke of Consumed, a book he read on consumerism and the textile industry especially, a book that totally shifted his purchasing behaviour especially concerning sneakers, which has been an interest of his since his teens. (He has hundreds of pairs of sneakers. Hundreds! I am not sure if I have ten pairs of shoes even…)

‘Are [companies] sustainable or aren't they? Or are they just doing it for money? If you're really a sustainable company, why do you have a sustainable line? Shouldn't everything you do be sustainable?’ ~Mandell

My main take-away from this conversation is something Mandell puts his finger on, which is that each person has their own journey here. I don’t want to push, or shame, anyone into making the same decisions that I’ve made. No. I make my decisions, you make yours, and in the space in-between, there’s that field of Rumi’s where we can meet.

“Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing

and rightdoing there is a field.

I'll meet you there.”

~ Rumi

So if you’re up for a an hour and twenty minutes of varying kinds of tankespjärn pertaining to inner ethical dilemmas, look no further!

Links:

Find Mandell Conway through his website Giving is like or on LinkedIn

Mandell walking with the lions

Process-oriented therapy with Dominic Bosman Venter

Arnold Mindell

Consumed

Peter Kalmus, climate scientist, @ClimateHuman on Twitter

Greta Thunberg

Luk Shoes, handmade barefoot shoes

Scott Perry

Patagonia

Author Helena Thorfinn

When me and Kate hook up for our second conversation of five, she’s just come home after a week off the grid in a tiny cabin on Windhorse Farm. There she practiced self-care, but don’t tell her I said that as she positively hates that word/concept… both of which she professes to in this conversation.

“It was […] wonderful just to spend time with myself. We don't often think of ourselves as the friends that we are to ourselves.” ~ Kate Inglis

Besides the self-care-thing she was there for a writing retreat, which gives me a kick in the behind to book a couple of writing retreats for myself. There’s something special to treating yourself to (however long) a time of focus, where the distractions of every-day life at least are minimized. Just a shift of scenery makes a huge difference.

I don’t know much of the novel Kate’s writing (and finished writing during the retreat, which, possibly, might have been the 25th time she’s exclaimed Done! To this particular novel, so who knows!) but I know grief plays a part, and as such, grief, trauma, pain, suffering and feelings all were part of our two-hour+ meandering conversation.

What we fill our lives with, both on an emotional level, but also physically, matter greatly. The food I eat. The clothes I wear. The schampoo I use (or not), the shoes I stuff my feet in (or not…), how much sleep I get, if I ever stick my fingers in the soil, get outside in the sun… all of this impacts the quality of our lives.

“What else might I not need to be doing? How else can I edit and curate my experience so that I can get closer to the source of what is healthy for a human being?” ~ Kate Inglis

And the question is, or rather, one question is, what can I pare down? What can I remove from my life that makes it richer, healthier, less toxic? How can I empower myself, take the agency that is mine, by birth, by entitlement (oh how that word is one I have a contentious relationship with. But I am re-shaping my beliefs about it, about entitlement. Choosing to see the positives in it, how it can and should serve. Because yes, for me entitlement has negative connotations, or have had…).

“…to see people who are empowered to swim against the current of where the culture is pushing us. And I don't care how they do it and I don't care why they do it, it is just awesome.” ~ Kate Inglis

It is my hope and desire that you will find at least one piece of tankespjärn here, that will have you noodling something or other for a day or two. Have fun!

Links:

Kate Inglis is most easily found through her website

Windhorse farm, Nova Scotia

Banff Center for art and creativity

Kate’s tweet about feeling everything, or too much

Bella was a calming presence in an online meet-up I attended last fall, having me reach out afterwards, inviting her to a one-on-one conversation. Lucky for me, she accepted, and we’ve had a few since then. Wise. Calm. With an energy that makes me feel good when I am around it. So I am thrilled to have her as my fifth conversation partner for season three, already looking forward to our upcoming four conversations.

With Bella, perhaps because of how we met, perhaps because of the vibes she gives off, conversations go naked quite quickly. And given how much I’ve worked on owning my wants, needs, longings and desires, it’s extremely helpful to be in conversation with someone who knows, to her very core, that she’s entitled to her wants and needs.

‘Even when I am not allowed to express my wants, I don't go and say, well, those are not legitimate wants and needs. That they can stay inside me, as legitimate.’ ~Bella

Just as I’ve been saying, for years, how all feelings are signals, I’ve actually never really broken it down to looking at my wants in the same way. It’s a signal, to heed or not, in the moment or at a later stage. And as such, it’s valid. It’s there. Not Truth, as such, but not something I need to or should disregard, label as illegitimate, invalidating myself.

‘I don't want to do the good thing. I want to do the real thing.’ ~Bella

What might real look like?

For me. For you. For us. How to dance with all of it? The joy, the happiness, being cheerful and buoyant, and all that we deem good and the anger, nastiness, jealousy, and petty emotions that seemingly scare us so much they are described as bad. How to dance with all of that? That’s what real means for me.

Join me and Bella for a meandering conversation, where you will encounter tankespjärn in many more ways as well.

Links:

Bella (and her music)

14. Daring to be vulnerable on record | with Alison Coates

The Three Principles

My meta-me

Ray Dalio (of Bridgewater and nothing else!) and his Principles

A toboggan in English is a kälke in Swedish

Process-oriented therapy with Dominic Bosman Venter

Chelan Harkin’s poem When I opened my heart

#42 | Attuning to the Deep Feminine - Maya Luna, from The Mythic Masculine podcast

She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes By The Sink

Downton Abbey

Esther Perel Discussion Group on FB

Ishmael by Daniel Quinn

@utanstrumpor on Twitter

Last season Twitter gifted me Reddy. This season’s Twitter gift is Luke Aymon, whom I connected with thanks to Reddy, who plays a lot with Eyal Shay (who’s podcast I guested), who in turn speaks a lot with Luke… and somewhere along those lines, mine and Luke’s paths crossed and we struck up a conversation. My hunch was that here’s a person whom I will enjoy being in conversation with, and my hunch proved correct!

Our two-hour meander took us into and through topics such as baby-sitting (have you ever considered what a weird word that is? Sitting the baby?), old timey radio announcer-playing, how games have changed from when Luke was small (not to mention when I was small…), to inbound marketing and the Inner Ethics Committee, to fungal treatments, risk analysis and the long arcs…

‘How do you set priorities that are not defined by something like money or resources, because that's generally how things get done? How do you value something like a future that you don't know if it will happen or not? I don't know.’ ~Luke

At the risk of being labeled technology-averse or anti-development and inventions, I am getting more and more aware of the dangers of running ahead full speed. Risk assessment is not easy, especially if you are faced with something new. How to even know what questions are relevant to ask, to make an informed decision, using discernment, about what might or might not serve in the long run? Heck, even if it will serve in the short run can be tricky.

‘We try to fix everything. Maybe there is no fixing to be done?’ ~Helena

Living in a fix-it-culture I am reminded of the quote (uncertain attribution) Don’t just do something, stand there! It helps me breathe and hold back from immediate action, even in moments when I really want to step into fix-it-mode.

‘Part of the acceptance of what is, is accepting what is, rather than trying to fix it, rather than finding the cure or avoiding, which is also a type of fix.’ ~Helena

This, and much more tankespjärn, is awaiting you in this episode. Or so I hope at least!

Links:

Find Luke Aymon on Twitter

Former Reddit CEO on Elon Musk and ‘a world of pain’

Pokémon Go

Episode 50 on the Inner Marketing Committee with Andy Mort

#buildinpublic

Inbound marketing

On tankespjarn.com you will find my e/audiobook and my other offerings including the community

First time I set eyes on Özlem Tan was during a leadership-training we both attended a few years back. I liked how he showed up there, and ever since, we’ve kept in touch, having interesting conversations which made me invite him to the third season of the podcast.

- Where are you from?

- I'm from Helsingborg.

- No, no, no, I mean like from the beginning?

- Well, yeah, I was born in a little village called Billesholm.

- That's not what I mean.

- Yeah, I understand you, you mean where my roots are? I'm a Swedish Kurd.

- Well, you can't be both.

- Of course, I can be both. What are you talking about?

As Özlem (born in Sweden to Kurdish parents, coming to Sweden before he was born) narrates an all too familiar dialogue for me, he helps me see (again) the absurdity of the question Where are you from? reminding me of the TED TalkTaiye Selasi held at TEDGlobal 2014 ‘Don’t ask me where I’m from, ask where I’m a local’.

‘Relationship role models: Do you have anyone in your life you can look at, in a marriage or a partnership, where you go, they are doing that thing, that's what I want to have. I want to model at least part of what they're doing, because that really hits home. Do you have anyone like that?’ ~Helena

And as I ask him for relationship role models, I wonder if he sees what becomes apparent to me as I work with the post-production for this episode: He and his wife are just that to their two daughters.

[My two daughters] want to avoid me interfering or helping them, they want to sort [conflicts] out themselves. ~Özlem

I don’t prepare for these episodes (except invite my five partners for the season and set up dates for our conversations), but I do read through the transcripts, looking for snippets as well as brush up on where we meandered, so that I can write these episode descriptions.

It takes time, yes, and there’s tremendous value to it.

I see more that what was apparent (to me) in the moment, during the conversation, my mind connects dots (like the TED Talk above, which I didn’t connect to during the conversation, but which popped into my mind once I started on the episode description). The potential for tankespjärn is alive and present, sometimes sprouting in the most surprising ways, as the meandering continues beyond the actual conversation.

This is what I hope happens to/in you as well.

That there’s a potential for tankespjärn that goes beyond the actual content; a memory awakened, a nudge that makes you take action on something, an infusion of energy into your life.

Links:

Find Özlem Tan onLinkedIn

My doodle from Internetstiftelsen’s seminar ’Why conspiracy theories are a threat to democracy’

När och varför slutade ni följa nyheterna?

Books!

Who knew me and Mandell Conway, conversation-partner number two for this third season of meandering conversations, would spend a whole episode talking abouts books. (Well. More or less. Not 100% perhaps. But a lot. And as I am a book buff I was pleasantly surprised to find a book buff-friend in Mandell).

You see, I know Mandell more for the stories he writes, as we met up in end November 2020 for The Storyskills Workshop. Luckily for me, Mandell started a blog in the first months of 2022, publishing writings he somewhat irregularly shares on LinkedIn too, which is where they caught my eye. In that way, he kind of made his way into my mind as I started to ponder who I wanted to spend season three with.

It’s fascinating how easy it is to set up rules for reading, rules that might or might not serve you (or your reading habit).

’… as I began to learn and like to read and fall down these rabbit holes of self-development, I wouldn't buy books unless I was reading them. And then if I read a book, I would finish them. Then I read somewhere that it's okay to have a bunch of books in your house that you haven't read. Just look at it as if you have all this wisdom accessible to you at any moment.’ ~ Mandell

I did the same thing as Mandell, punished myself by judging me a failure if I started to read a book without finishing it. Today I’ve so let that belief go, as there are way to many books out there for me to spend my time reading books I am not getting something of value from, regardless what that ‘value’ might be.

I’ve also imposed a no-book-buying-ban on myself, having ten years or so when I’d only read library books. I’ve relaxed a lot around that issue too, buying books that I know I want to marginalia in. (No. That’s not an actual verb. But in my vocabulary it is.)

So when I learned about tsundoku (having books piled everywhere) in an article by Austin Kleon, I laughed because this is so me. He also quotes Edward Tufte:

“The important books in my library are the unread books.”

Perhaps this is true for tankespjärn as well? The important thing is to be in a setting where the potential for coming across one (or two, or…) is high. Such as when you join me and Mandell in this our first conversation. Enjoy!

Links:

Find Mandell Conway through his website Giving is like or on LinkedIn

The Storyskills Workshop

Stöld av Ann-Helén Laestadius

Do Open: How a simple email newsletter can transform your business by David Hieatt, the denim guy of Hiut Denim

Keyboard CEO course over on Do Lectures, with Mike Coulter (whose name slipped my mind…)

The Creative’s Workshop

The altMBA

Wim Hof Fundamentals

Pop the cat

Season three is upon us, and thus I get to introduce five new people to you!

First up is Kate Inglis. A lovely woman I connected with on Twitter after she reached out a hand. And you’ve experienced it yourself, I am sure, when you first connect with someone and you just know that there’s something there, haven’t you? A liking, an affinity, a knowing that if we were to commence walking alongside each other, we’d find a lot of value and enjoyment from it. No wonder then that she popped into my mind when I started to invite people for season three.

I could go into a long song and dance about Kate, where she’s from, what she does for a living, what experiences has shaped her and the trajectory of her life… but I won’t. Partly because I far from know enough of it, but also, mostly, because I want you to get to meet Kate. Period. Not meet who I perceive her to be, not meet who you’ll perceive her to be based on descriptors and label I put on her here. Just meet her.

The first of a series of five conversations, by the end of which I am fairly sure, both you, me and her, will individually have a knowing of Kate that is unique to us all. Which reminds me of bits in this meandering conversation, where we touch upon houses (have you ever had a house look down its nose at you, for instance?) and character, but also history. A lot about history honestly, touching on the big events that we read about in textbooks. But more specifically, pointing to the import of the tiny stories, the unremarkable lives, the everyday reality of all those that came before us. Do you know your history?

Prepare for a few rants too, at least some of which I am certain will shower your day with some (possibly sought-after) tankespjärn!

Links:

Kate Inglis is most easily found through her website

Sex and the City


A Discovery of Witches

Colonial Williamsburg

Malmö, Sweden

Riverport, Nova Scotia

1884

Buddhas by the Roadside

Bob Newhart Stop it!

Notes for the everlost by Kate Inglis

Antifragile by Nassim Nicholas Taleb

The Tankespjärn community where this type of conversation takes place in a monthly meet-up – you are more than welcome to join!

The Glass Bead Game by Herman Hesse

FB-group for announcement for upcoming Glass Bead Games

Michael Sillion aka Captain Future

Judgment and discernment in reflection, episode 47 with Steve Emery, season two

Process-oriented therapy with Dominic Bosman Venter

Wrapping up season two I am filled with gratitude for the experience. All of it. From inviting conversation partners to setting up the first conversations, thoroughly enjoying conversations two and three, experiencing tugs at my heartstrings in conversation four and when finding times for the group reflections, to being a bit lost-for-words during the fifth and final (individual) conversations. At long last, I am brought to this point, where I am writing the episode description for the second and last group-episode.

‘It's the conversations. That's what matters, which comes through in spades.’ ~Andy

The insight that these meandering conversations hold value on many levels sweep by like a warm spring breeze, caressing my cheek ever so softly. For me in doing 5x5 deep and honest conversations. For my partners in playful explorative conversation, a dance based on open minds and curious hearts. For listeners feeling as if you are a part of the conversations. Which you are!

‘Conversation is an important part of our lives. And we need to learn to have those [deep] conversations in a way that encourages the thinking process.’ ~Izzy

How do you get deep and honest conversations into your life? How to invite, entice, instigate them, when, where, with whom? With others and/or with yourself?

‘The algorithms don't really invite tankespjärn at all.’ ~Caspian

Where do you get seeds of enquiry, confusion, excitement to play and dance and create with?

‘Most of the time when I'm speaking, I don't know how I'm going to finish my sentence. You know, I might have a general sense of what the idea is, but I increasingly find I speak to discover. There is a certain kind of space that's required for that.’ ~Matthew

You are invited into just such a space, a space where the opportunity for tankespjärn is present, always and already. If, and when, you need nourishment, know that you are welcome to step into that space with me, with us.

Links:

The Tankespjärn community provides just such a space–you are welcome to join!

Izzy can be found through RedCheeks

Andy Mort

Andy’s Patreon page

Matthew Word Bain on Medium and Instagram

Caspian Almerud, my behind-the-scenes-man and best buddy

Me and Andy on his podcast, The Gentle Rebel Podcast

Inma (aka Imma) J Lopez, sommelier and writer on Attention

Creative Community

Steve Emery is most easily found on Color Sweet Tooth

Reddy on Twitter (and me on Twitter)

Maybe violence isn’t all that bad?!

Process-oriented therapy with Dominic Bosman Venter

The Trialogues (Sheldrake, McKenna, Abraham)

Rounding off season two (How IS it possible, that I’ve already had another 5x5 conversations?!), we do a repeat of what we did at the end of season one: getting everyone from the season together to share what it’s been like to partake. Here’s the first of two group conversations, with me, Reddy, Steve and Inma, chaperoned by Caspian who’s my behind-the-scenes man (and dear friend!).

Having 5x5 deep real-life meandering conversations has been very instrumental in my personal growth ever since season one took off, but there’s something very rewarding in hearing how these conversations impact my dance partners, which is what they all feel like.

“It's a very strange kind of dance these conversations. No one's really leading. No one’s really following. It's like we're taking turns or it's like… we don't even know? I mean, the dance floor is changing, the dance keeps changing and it's almost like the partners keep changing because every time we speak, we move from one topic to another.” ~Reddy

As there’s no topic to start off with, what wants to happen is invited to happen, which incidentally makes for a great playground where learning is rife.

“You have a conversation in a protected space and you learn how to ride without training wheels, and then you find you can do it someplace else.” ~Steve

Sometimes it’s not even what we say, but that we say it, and how our voices come together to help create a space of intimacy.

“There’s also the component of the sound of our voices, that for me, with Izzy and Helena, it’s just like Oh my God, this is good because the sound of their voices when they are talking is just so intimate, and they are talking about intimacy. It’s a WOW for me. It becomes like threads of the fabric [that we are collectively weaving by participating in the meandering conversations], the sounds of our voices.” ~Inma

Tag along with me, Reddy, Steve, Inma and Caspian, as we reflect on the past six months. Perhaps those pieces of tankespjärn aren’t quite as obvious… but… they are there. Promise!

Links:

Steve Emery is most easily found on Color Sweet Tooth

Reddy on Twitter (and me on Twitter)

Inma J Lopez, sommelier and writer on Attention

Caspian Almerud, my behind-the-scenes-man and best buddy

The Creatives Workshop (aka PRO2 that Steve refers too, I attended PRO1) of Akimbo

The Tankespjärn community where this type of conversation takes place in a monthly meet-up – you are more than welcome to join!

Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer

The Creative Community (that me, Steve, Inma and Matthew are all engaged in)

Antifragile by Nassim Nicholas Taleb