The Argument

Over less than 25 years, the opioid epidemic killed over 800,000 Americans. These deaths and the resulting economic and political ramifications were unequally distributed across the country. Some places were ravaged, others barely noticed what was happening. 

In this episode, host Jerusalem Demsas is joined by economist Carolina Arteaga to unpack new research linking the opioid crisis to increasing vote share for the Republican party. They dig into how a public-health catastrophe came to be a law and order issue, how conservative-leaning media covered the crisis differently, and how much of the shift can really be chalked up to persuasion. Plus: the surprising fertility finding in hard-hit areas and what it might say about opportunity and family formation.

The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Editor-in-Chief Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.

We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected].

For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts

The Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.

Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com 

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Children are a problem for liberalism -- and it’s one you can see in everything from school-board wars to fights over “indoctrination.” If all individuals are free and equal, endowed with rights by their Creator, then does that include children? Kids are fully human, yes, but they’re also dependent, impulsive, and not yet capable of adult autonomy. So when do rights actually kick in?

Rita Koganzon, a political theory professor at UNC Chapel Hill, has a blunt answer: adult-style rights have to start at a fixed age, and before that, children don’t really have any rights. Not because children don’t matter, but because the alternatives get dangerous fast. If the state gets to decide, case by case, who’s mature enough, you hand the government a tool it can easily abuse. And if you grant full autonomy, you’re pushed toward conclusions most people reject, especially around sex, consent, and how much say kids should have over institutions like schools.

Host Jerusalem Demsas isn’t so sure it’s that simple. She agrees there’s no clean, fully consistent liberal theory of childhood, but she’s skeptical that “no rights” is the least-bad answer, or that our current equilibrium properly protects kids from harm without handing parents a blank check. The result is a bracing debate about where liberal principles bend, where they break, and what we’re really choosing when we draw the line between child and adult.

The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Editor-in-Chief Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.

We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected].

For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts

The Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.

Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com 

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

NIMBYism is usually explained as selfishness: homeowners protecting property values, or neighbors who just hate change. But a growing body of research suggests something simpler and harder to argue with: aesthetics.

What if people oppose new housing not only because of who might move in or what it might do to traffic, but because the building just looks “wrong”?

In this episode, Jerusalem Demsas talks with UC Davis law professor Chris Elmendorf about new experiments that test what actually moves support for apartment buildings—design, context, symbolic cues like “luxury,” and even whether an architect is described as award-winning. They also get into what this means for YIMBY strategy and why some popular fixes don’t buy as much support as you’d think.

The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Editor-in-Chief Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.

We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected].

For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts

The Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.

Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com 

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

 If we want to address racism, should we talk more about race – or less?

Matthew Yglesias argues liberals undermined their own principles when politics shifted from judging people as individuals to sorting them into moral categories based on group identity. We debate “the fox in liberalism’s henhouse,” collective blame, and why “accurate” generalizations can still poison a pluralistic society.

The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Editor-in-Chief Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.

We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected].

For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts

The Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.

Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com 

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

A lot of Americans are uneasy about AI,  and so are many of the people building it. Yet we keep scaling and deploying these systems faster than we’re building rules to govern them. Why? 

The Argument's Kelsey Piper has a few explanations, from foreign competition to a sense of inevitability to a conservative party terrified of regulation. Even if the incentives are clear, our collective complacency is not, especially given AI models have already attempted blackmail and in one case attempted to smuggle itself to North Korea. 

Kelsey and host Jerusalem Demsas discuss why guardrails keep getting postponed, and what’s at stake.

The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Editor-in-Chief Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.

We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected].

For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts

The Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.

Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com 

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

At the end of the year, I wanted to revisit our very first podcast conversation with some of my favorite liberal journalists. 

In our very first live show in Washington, D.C., Derek Thompson, Ezra Klein, and Matt Yglesias joined me for a disagreement-ridden conversation to tape the first episode of our new video podcast, The Argument.

We talk about why Matt spends so much of his time arguing with the left, whether Ezra thinks it matters “who shot first” as the right ramps up its attacks, why Derek picked a fight with the New Antitrust Movement, and much, much more.

The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, I will bring together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.

Editor’s note: This episode was taped on Sept. 5, before the assassination of Charlie Kirk and the escalating threats from the Trump administration.

For a full-length, ad-free version of our video podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel here. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts

Articles discussed:

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com 

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Why is far-right populism on the rise? Political scientist Gabriele Gratton has a controversial theory: For decades, technocrats moved policy decisions — on austerity, climate, and more – away from the realm of mass politics and toward independent authorities, courts, and experts. The result? A populist backlash fueled by the desire to reassert control over policy.

In Gratton's telling, the populist backlash isn't irrational; it's a democratic response to elite failure. But his prescription isn't to abandon liberalism. This conversation explores how we got here and whether liberal democracy can course-correct before it's too late.

The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.

We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected].

For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts

The Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.

Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com 

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

America's literacy problem is a policy choice. As schools shifted away from phonics toward guessing-based instruction, a generation of kids paid the price. But a quiet reversal is underway in an unexpected place. Mississippi rebuilt reading instruction from the ground up and saw real gains. If it worked there, why are other states so resistant to copying it?

The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.

We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected].

For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts

The Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.

Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com 

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Why do so many people believe immigrants are screwing them even when the evidence says otherwise? Economist Sahil Chinoy joins host Jerusalem Demsas to break down his massive 20,000-person study on zero-sum thinking — the worldview that assumes someone else’s gain must be your loss. 

They dig into how family histories of enslavement and immigration shape attitudes today, why young Americans are so much more zero-sum than older generations, and how economic stagnation fuels a sense of scarcity. They also explore why some policy fights (housing, redistribution, trade) trigger zero-sum instincts more than others, and what can actually shift those beliefs. If you want to understand the psychology and politics behind America’s “fixed-pie” debates, this episode is a must-listen.

The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.

We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected].

For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts

The Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.

Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com 

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Rising income inequality hurts democracy, health, happiness, and basically anything you can think of … right? 

Sociologist Lane Kenworthy doesn't think so. In his new book Is Inequality The Problem? Kenworthy argued that inequality is overrated as “the” cause of our problems — and discussed why the data pushes him toward a different set of priorities. Host Jerusalem Demsas is skeptical. Together, they dig into happiness, health, and populism, and they discuss why expanding the social welfare state might matter more than obsessing over the 1%.

The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.

We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected].

For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts

The Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.

Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com 

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.