In this week's episode of The Autism Mums Podcast we're returning to the subject of PDA, or Pathological Demand Avoidance.
PDA is a profile of autism where the standout feature is demand avoidance - and the behaviours that come with it are often misunderstood, dismissed as naughtiness or stubbornness. We're drawing on guidance from the PDA Society alongside our own lived experience to help you understand what's really going on, and what actually helps.
Key Takeaways
- PDA is an autism profile where everyday demands can trigger intense anxiety and a need for control.
- Responses commonly look like fight, flight, freeze, or fawn.
- Many children with PDA have a spiky profile - real strengths in some areas and significant challenges in others. Appearing articulate or socially capable can mask what's really going on inside.
- Some common approaches make things worse - strict routines, reward charts, behaviour systems, and countdowns can all increase anxiety and erode trust. It varies so much between children.
- Think of boundaries with an elastic band around them: knowing what really matters and letting the rest go.
- Language matters. Swapping direct demands for gentle suggestions, indirect phrasing, and offering real choices can make a significant difference.
- Responding with compassion, curiosity, and calm - even when you're screaming inside - is what keeps things from escalating.
- The PDA Society frames this as a human rights issue, grounded in dignity, freedom, and choice — and that perspective can help justify approaches that might feel counterintuitive to others.
- School settings often struggle with PDA because surface compliance hides deep need. Good assessment and clear educational planning really matter.
Mentioned in This Episode
PDA Society - https://www.pdasociety.org.uk
PDA Society Support and Training - https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/support-and-training/
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Transcript
57 - Parenting PDA
[00:00:00]
Victoria Bennion: In today's episode, we're returning to a subject that we've covered before PDA, but this time, , we wanna go a little bit more deeper into it, is it something that comes up on a regular basis? And particularly as we were talking about the transitions that the children are going through as they grow up, and how you then handle that with a PDA child.
Natalie Tealdi: PDA, which is pathological demand avoidance and the behaviors that come with it are often misunderstood. We've both learned so much more since the episode we did on this before, and we want to share that experience with you.
Victoria Bennion: Yeah, we're gonna make sure that we draw on guidance from the PDA society, and we'll combine that with our own lived experience.
Talking about common traits.
What happens when every day demands trigger intense anxiety, how a rights-based approach changes our responses and where you can go to for support.
Natalie Tealdi: The PDA Society describes PDA as a profile of autism, where the standout feature is demand [00:01:00] avoidance. So people struggle with everyday demands, even ones they want or need to do.
Victoria Bennion: Yeah, it's often mistaken for naughtiness or being really stubborn. So without the right understanding and support, PDA can really have a massive effect on daily life.
Natalie Tealdi: The key point is this demand avoidance is usually driven by anxiety and a need for control. I think that's been a really important one for me to understand. I try to come at it as a point of view of. My child's anxious and they need support rather than them just being
Defiant.
Victoria Bennion: Again, I know we say this a lot, but it's can't rather than won't, but it's just the way those behaviors come out that I think to someone who doesn't know what's going on, it can look like your child's being really, really naughty.
Natalie Tealdi: Yeah.
Victoria Bennion: I know that we have to be really careful about the language that. We use so that it doesn't come across as a demand, because , if it sounds like a demand and it can feel threatening to the [00:02:00] child and then their anxiety that they feel spikes into panic. So yeah. The PDA Society outlines four common responses.
Fight, flight, freeze, and fawn.
Natalie Tealdi: Yeah. So fight can look like oppositional or aggressive behavior. Flights may be leaving, hiding, running away. I know some children climb trees to get away, to somewhere that's nice and quiet and away from
Victoria Bennion: sound like you have experience of this.
Natalie Tealdi: And freeze can be zoning out or becoming non-verbal.
And fawn is people pleasing or over agreeing to avoid conflict.
Victoria Bennion: Well that's interesting.
Natalie Tealdi: Mm.
Victoria Bennion: So one of my children certainly freezes. So it's the zoning out and becoming non-verbal. That's what I would see a lot. And I didn't have a good understanding of what PDA was for a while. I saw it as the fight that you would see.
So it took me a little longer to realize that's what was going on.
Natalie Tealdi: I think between us all four of those things are kind of covered by our kids.
Victoria Bennion: [00:03:00] Yeah. Yeah. I think we can, we can cover those.
Natalie Tealdi: Yeah.
Victoria Bennion: For sure. One of the things that we have to be careful about is for example, saying you need to go and have a shower now.
That is just gonna be a flat out No. So I've learned over time that it's better to say. I think it would be a good idea to have a shower today. When would suit you? When do you think? Then even if we agree a time that would be forgotten. So I would then likely put a reminder on so it's not me then pressuring it's two o'clock, you said you'd have a shower at two o'clock.
I get Alexa to do it.
Natalie Tealdi: Right.
Victoria Bennion: That seems to work better for us, but a teacher at my son's first school actually used some of those techniques with him , it was in a report that was done where someone was observing that she actually worked those into her, language.
It said in the report that he was wearing gloves but had been given a laptop. So as she walked away, she said gloves off rather than, you must take [00:04:00] your gloves off. It was things like that
Natalie Tealdi: like just a little suggestion, but also not even using the, the eye contact or anything.
Victoria Bennion: That's what was picked up on I think it was quite skillfully done, and that's what's needed, but I've only really become aware of it in the last few months of how much. More I need to be using the techniques that would work for PDA rather than autism.
Natalie Tealdi: Yeah. I think it's something we've talked about as well is as the children are getting older and you want to encourage a bit of independence in some areas, but also is trying to find that right balance, isn't it, by gently encouraging, but not pushing and making them stressed.
Victoria Bennion: Yeah, definitely. ,
Natalie Tealdi: PDA goes beyond just demand avoidance.
Victoria Bennion: Yeah, Many people with PDA have what's known as a spiky profile, so they have real strengths in some areas and big challenges in others.
For example, a child could be really articulate but completely unable to answer a direct question. When [00:05:00] stressed the words. Just go. I mean, that's definitely one of my children.
Natalie Tealdi: Yeah. And that masking can be exhausting. Surface behavior can make it look as though someone is coping, but that coping uses so much energy that it needs to break down later.
Victoria Bennion: Yeah. I was recently actually in a meeting about one of my children and this came up and I was really surprised that. They obviously cover it so well that nobody sees those struggles. It's pretty much as we've just described, because they're articulate. No one's seeing like the intense emotions that are going on inside because they're managing that superficial social interaction.
Natalie Tealdi: Yeah. So is it then like coming out?
Victoria Bennion: Yeah. What I then see is refusal. And just an inability to cope and exhaustion.
There are some approaches that are definitely going to be worse if a child has PDA.
Natalie Tealdi: Yeah. So like strict routines, behavior charts.
Did you ever try those? Oh
Victoria Bennion: yes. Yeah. When they were tiny
Natalie Tealdi: woo. Reward charts and, uh, I [00:06:00] remember the naughty step as well. Did you ever
Victoria Bennion: do Oh my goodness.
Natalie Tealdi: Or the timeout step or whatever it was, but that never worked for us anyway.
And those things can increase anxiety and erode trust as well, which is a huge issue, isn't it?
And can make avoidance even worse.
Victoria Bennion: Yeah. It's not about being soft, but I think that's what can be perceived. You can be seen as being like a really soft parent, but it's actually about being strategic.
Natalie Tealdi: Yeah. I think it can be seen like you don't have boundaries with your kids. And I remember when we went to the early birds course, we were always told you can have boundaries, but with an elastic band around.
Victoria Bennion: I like that.
Natalie Tealdi: Yeah. Yeah. It's really good. So I often think about that what's really important to focus on and what isn't so important weigh up?
Victoria Bennion: Yeah, because if demands are escalating anxiety, forcing a child to comply, it can just harm their wellbeing and safety over time.
Natalie Tealdi: Yeah, and I find it goes in waves as well.
It is constantly assessing [00:07:00] where my child's at. Yeah. So is this a tricky week? You know, we're coming back at the moment. We're just coming back after the holidays. Usually there's a little bit of a settling down period back into routine, so I do tend to take demands away as much as possible and then build them up again once you've settled back into that routine.
Victoria Bennion: Yeah, that makes sense.
Natalie Tealdi: I also find that counting down does not work well with my son that stresses him.
Victoria Bennion: What do you mean? Like five warning for leaving somewhere or?
Natalie Tealdi: It's more like getting ready for bed. So, time to brush teeth. Five seconds to 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.
I can't do that. Oh
Victoria Bennion: no.
Natalie Tealdi: Absolutely not. But I can with my daughter. She loves it in a kind of a game.
Victoria Bennion: I suppose that's the thing. It's always gonna vary so much between children as well. What works and what doesn't. So you certainly have to try a few things, don't you?
Before you realize what's helpful and what's really not helpful?
Natalie Tealdi: Yeah, definitely.
Victoria Bennion: I think it's that demand that you must do it now. I think if you can remove [00:08:00] that and there's not actually. Lots that has to be done. Now I find that if you insist on that now, like you were saying, everything has to be done right to this timeline.
You what actually can happen is you get a big explosion or shut down and the thing that you were trying to get done then can't get be done. So if that's getting out of the house to go to school or what, whatever it is, but if you handle it wrong and with the come on, because sometimes we are worried we've got places to go.
You know, you might be dropping your child to school, then you might be going to work and you might be, and you are feeling that. But if you push that, in my experience, what we find works is just to accept that you're gonna be late sometimes and give them that extra space that they need.
Natalie Tealdi: I find it's like I'm living in two different worlds. It's like there's my internal world that's going, oh my God, we're supposed to have left five minutes ago. We're gonna be late and I've got this after this. And I've dropped him up and oh my God. And then, [00:09:00] but on the outside I'm like.
Okay. Take some breaths and then Yeah, that's fine. Let's go and get ready now. It's not a problem. Not a problem. You don't like your shoes today? No problem. Wear some wellies. You are trying to keep her all really calm.
Yes. Then you wonder why you're exhausted later.
Victoria Bennion: That's it. It does take a lot out of you, doesn't it? I think because you need to make sure that you're responding with compassion and curiosity and co-regulation rather than. Control.
Natalie Tealdi: Yeah. And, and that we are on their side. It's okay. Yeah. We've got this. You can do this,
Victoria Bennion: it's
Natalie Tealdi: fine.
Yeah,
Victoria Bennion: definitely.
Natalie Tealdi: Rather than, you must do this because I'm your mother and I tell, you,
Victoria Bennion: You've taken me back to when we went away and we were going through the airport, you know, trying to get to security and. , There was just that pressure and it's difficult when you've got to get somewhere, but actually it's better just to slow down and validate feelings.
I mean, they put us on the [00:10:00] plane first. That shows you how well that part went.
Natalie Tealdi: So different ways of phrasing things that we found helpful are in instead saying, put your coat on now. Would you like to try the red coat or the blue coat today?
Victoria Bennion: Okay. I couldn't give that choice. 'cause then that's a choice, but,
Natalie Tealdi: oh.
Victoria Bennion: You might have to adapt it, see what works for your child.
Natalie Tealdi: Okay. Or do you want to put your coat on before we go, or do you want to take it in the car?
Victoria Bennion: Yes, that one would work.
Natalie Tealdi: Or for a task, you could say something like, I'm going to do the first bit and you could do the second bit.
Victoria Bennion: Do you
Natalie Tealdi: want me to start?
Victoria Bennion: I find that's really good with getting dressed.
Natalie Tealdi: Yes. So this is chaining, isn't it?
Victoria Bennion: Yes. So I might start by , helping put the t-shirt on, and then.
letting my child take over and do the other bits. But you work it backwards, you just add a bit further back each time. Yeah.
Natalie Tealdi: So we wanted to talk a little bit about the human rights angle part of this. The PDA society frames this as a human rights issue, focusing [00:11:00] on dignity, freedom, and choice, not simply compliance.
Victoria Bennion: Yeah, that's right. The UN Convention on the Rights of a Child and General Human Rights Principles support listening to children and offering choice where possible, and that perspective helps justify gentler, respectful strategies even when they feel counterintuitive.
Natalie Tealdi: School settings often struggle with PDA because surface compliance can hide deep need, and this is where good assessment in clear educational planning matter.
Victoria Bennion: Yeah, I totally experienced this. They look fine when they're with us.
Natalie Tealdi: Or they're just labeled as the naughty kid.
Victoria Bennion: Yeah. I suppose it depends, going back to the framework of. The fight. Flight
Natalie Tealdi: fawn. And freeze
Victoria Bennion: Which one your child exhibits.
Natalie Tealdi: Yeah. And I suppose that also comes with understanding and diagnosis. That's where diagnosis be really helpful.
Victoria Bennion: So where can you go to get help?
Natalie Tealdi: The PDA Society has resources and a trained team with lived experience who can point you to UK [00:12:00] based resources and local support.
Victoria Bennion: Professional assessment in tailored support can make a big difference. And lived experience groups also have practical strategies that aren't in clinical guidance.
We will put links to these in the show notes.
Natalie Tealdi: So just to recap then, PDA is an autism profile where demands trigger anxiety and a need for control responses commonly look like fight, flight, freeze, or fall, and can combine with a spiky profile and masking.
Victoria Bennion: Shift the mindset. Focus on understanding co-regulation and controlled choice. Move away from the punitive systems that increase anxiety. Just think rights, dignity, and safety.
Natalie Tealdi: If this episode helped you, please do share it and check the show notes for PDA Society Links. If you'd like to send us your PDA questions and any real life scenarios, we'll use them in future episodes.
