Politics is increasingly polarised, but if there’s one thing politicians of all major parties can agree on, it’s growth — that their political rivals failed to deliver growth, that we need more of it, and that getting it will solve all of our problems, from inequality and poverty to crumbling public services and stalling investment.

But not everyone agrees. For a growing movement of post-growth and degrowth economists, economic growth is neither neutral nor desirable. Instead, many increasingly call for the abandonment of our growth-dependent economic model on the basis that unfettered growth is driving our climate and ecosystems to the brink.

Our guest today, Hans Stegeman, is an unusual figure in this community — a banker who wants finance, and the wider economy, to move beyond growth for the sake of the planet. Hans is Chief Economist at Triodos Bank, as well as a leading writer and thinker on post-growth economics. In today’s episode, Hans and Adrienne discuss degrowth, the myth of green finance, and why breaking the rules of mainstream economics is the first step to a sustainable future.