Mark Sayers doesn’t mince words about the challenges our world is currently facing. In his new book, A Non-Anxious Presence: How a Changing and Complex World Will Create a Remnant of Renewed Christian Leaders, he sees these challenges as a potential prelude to revival. He writes, “We feel the gap between the vision of the church we encounter in Scripture and the reality on the ground. This gives rise to a deep desire for God’s church to be refreshed, empowered, and renewed.”

Sayers serves as senior leader of Red Church in Melbourne, Australia. In this episode, Mark Sayers and Collin Hansen discuss tribalism, anxious systems, maturity, hardship, and more.