The Crime Cafe

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe features another story from The Adventures of Philip Marlowe.

This episode comes to you ad-free. Relatively. 🙂

The following is an unedited AI-generated transcript. Does an awesome job, huh? 🙂

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But first, let me remind you that the podcast offers membership benefits on Patreon.

Check out Patreon today. After you buy your toothpaste.

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This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Tom Fowler.

Check out our discussion of his Baltimore-based crime fiction.

Click here for a PDF copy of the transcript.

Debbi (00:55): Hi everyone. My guest today is the USA Today bestselling indie author of the John Tyler thrillers and the CT Ferguson crime fiction series. Born in Baltimore, he now lives in the Maryland suburbs of DC, a place that I know well, or at least I used to know it well. It’s my pleasure to have with me Tom Fowler. Hey, Tom. How are you doing today?

Tom (01:21): Good, Debbi. Thanks for having me on.

Debbi (01:23): Excellent. My pleasure. I was particularly intrigued by the fact that you are writing hardboiled mysteries that take place in Baltimore. You’re originally from Baltimore and you’ve also written a whole lot of those books. How many books do you have in the CT Ferguson series?

Tom (01:44): Sixteen currently. Just put up the pre-order for number 17. My hope is to have it out a little before Christmas.

Debbi (01:56): Well, I got to tell you, I love a hardboiled mystery, and I love the idea of the setting in Baltimore. How many books do you plan to write for the series? What’s your plan for the series in general?

Tom (02:09): Yeah, I don’t have any plan to end it. I think it’s common in the genre to have these kind of open-ended series, and we look at the Spencer series. Robert B. Parker wrote 40 or 41 before he died, and there’s been another 11 or 12, I think since his passing. Ace Atkins wrote the first nine or 10, and now Mike Lupica has taken over. So Jack Reacher was more of a thriller character, I would say, than mystery, but that’s a 27 or 28. And again, there’s an author transition happening there too. So I think it’s very common to see these series just keep going, and as long as people are interested in reading them, I’m certainly interested in writing them. I have a lot of fun with these books.

Debbi (02:56): That’s cool. I’ve noticed they tend to be on the short side. Is that intentional? Is it just the way you write?

Tom (03:04): I guess it’s just the way I write. They’re usually 70 to 75,000 words. The more recent ones have been closer to 70, so I’d say most mysteries are probably somewhere in the 75 to 80 range. So I hope I’m not writing too short, but it’s the right length for the story. I don’t want to pad the word count unnecessarily. They’re first-person stories, so there’s not a lot of side quests, if you will, happening that the other characters are going on, so.

Debbi (03:34): Exactly. Yeah, and personally, I like short reads, so I mean, that just really appeals to me.

Tom (03:41): Yeah.

Debbi (03:44): What prompted you to write that series?

Tom (03:49): A few things. I’ve mentioned before, I think I have a longer bio that mentions I wrote a “murder mystery” (in air quotes for those who can’t see me) when I was about seven years old in which no one actually died, so no murder. And I named the, I guess I can’t really call him the killer, but the person who stabbed people, the stabber, like in the first paragraph. So not a mystery either. Oh for two, but it’s because I was at my grandparents’ house a lot, and they would watch shows like The Rockford Files. This was probably the early eighties, and they were probably in syndication by then, but Columbo, shows like that where you had a cop or a PI, someone solving a mystery, and I’ve read a lot of different genres over the years, but I wanted to, at some point in the late two thousands to 2010, I wanted to write my own, and I really started writing that book.

(04:52): I know I had a finished draft of the first book, The Reluctant Detective, around November, December of 2010. I wouldn’t publish it until October of 2017. So the process took me about seven years, but I wanted to do, I like the crime genre a lot. I was big into shows like Monk and Psych and things like that at the time, but I didn’t want to do the photographic memory. I felt like that was overdone. So I had to put my own spin on it a little bit, but I really wanted to write something in that space because I’ve been a fan of it, even going back to my childhood watching those shows at my grandparents’ house.

Debbi (05:27): Absolutely. Yeah, those shows are great too. I loved The Rockford Files. Oh my gosh, he was just perfect. I also noticed that you have a protagonist in John Tyler thrillers who’s a military veteran. What inspired you to write that character?

Tom (05:47): Well, I’ve never been to the military myself, but I’ve worked for the Army and the DOD as a civilian for–I’m not in that space anymore, but I was there for about 16 years or so. So I met a lot of people who were in the military, and I wanted to do a different series, and I wanted to do more of a thriller style, like a military action thriller, and obviously the 800 pound gorilla in that space is Jack Reacher. So to be clear, I very much enjoy the Jack Reacher books. I’m not trying to bag on Jack Reacher, but I wanted to do something a little bit different than Jack Reacher. So I still wanted someone who’s been in the service and seen and done his share, but a different character in a lot of ways, I think. And in the series, Tyler has PTSD and lives with it and manages it. He has a teenage daughter who lives with him. As the series opens, she later goes to college. So there are a lot of differences, I think, between a character like Reacher or the more loner types that you normally see in this genre. But I wanted to ground him a little bit differently and tells stories. A character like Reacher, he rolls into a town, raises hell, shoots people and leaves, and he’s pretty much the same guy in the next book, and that’s fun. But I wanted someone who has been affected by what he’s done and continues to be affected by the things he does.

Debbi (07:12): Yeah, I hear that. Actually. I write about a female Marine veteran who also has PTSD and an opioid addiction.

Tom (07:21): Oh, wow.

Debbi (07:22): Who is trying to function as a private eye essentially. So that’s an interesting thing to deal with.

Tom (07:29): I read about something for people with traumatic brain injuries. It was like a therapeutic painting program,

(07:35): And I talked to someone I know who’s a psychologist, and I said, could something like this be adapted for people who were trying to manage PTSD? And she said, yes. So in the books, Tyler has this painting program that he does. He has watercolors and he has an easel, and he just gets these things out of his head. And interestingly, one of my readers teaches art and teaches watercolors. So he actually gave me some advice about these are the kinds of things he should buy, and this is how someone who’s not an artist, because Tyler certainly wouldn’t be an artist, this is how someone who’s an amateur would do a painting and they would do this part first and then this. So I think my descriptions of him sitting at the easel and doing his painting has gotten a little more accurate over time just because someone who reads my books happens to have that experience and said, Hey, you can have him do it this way.

Debbi (08:31): Wow, that’s really interesting. I like the idea of the art therapy as something to use to manage traumatic brain injury. Fascinating. So how largely does Baltimore as a setting figure in your stories?

Tom (08:51): Pretty prominently. Most of the stories, I mean, they all take place, at least partially there. Some of them are entirely contained in the city, but there’s also some stories that go into the county or other parts of the state. A couple of the Tyler books actually, some of the action takes place in nearby states, but they always usually start and end In Baltimore, which is my city. It’s the city I know. It’s the city I love. I know it doesn’t always have the best reputation, but it’s more than just The Wire, and it’s more than just what you see on the news.

Debbi (09:25): Exactly.

Tom (09:26): Yeah, it really is. It’s a great city, and I want it to feature in there. And yeah, I’m writing crime stories, so yes, people are dying in Baltimore and these stories. People die in every city, every day around the world. But I really want it to feature in there, and I get emails from people, not just people who lived in Baltimore, but someone who says, oh, I came to Baltimore for a conference 10 years ago, and we ate at the restaurant, and you wrote about it in your book, and just little things like that. So when you ground your series in any real city, even Baltimore in this case, you’re going to have people who know the landmarks, who have driven on those streets and who have been in neighborhoods, and it creates a real setting for people.

Debbi (10:10): Yeah, definitely. So you’re an indie author like myself. What has your experience been like as an indie author and was it what you expected?

Tom (10:22): No, it was not. It’s a lot more than what I expected, and I love it, don’t get me wrong, but there are days it really feels like a second job. There are days, it feels like a tied for first job maybe. I really kind of envisioned it as, okay, I’m going to write these books. I’m going to put them up there. And yeah, I wasn’t expecting to get rich or anything, and I haven’t gotten rich from writing books, but man, there’s a lot that goes on. You have to get your books in front of people, so you have to have an email list and oh, now you need to be on social media, and here’s these Amazon ads and Facebook ads and things like that. It’s like, man, I want to write. I don’t want to do all this stuff. And I think a lot of people are in that boat.

(11:11): We get into this, I think, because we’re creatives and we want to write and we have stories, and then the businessy aspects of it is where we kind of throw up our hands a little bit, and I’ve certainly done that in some areas. But yeah, I try to carve out time before the workday. After the workday, on the weekends at lunch. I don’t do my writing work during, I have a day job. I don’t write during my day job. That’s my day job hours, but before and after on the weekends, things like that, that’s when I carve out my time. But yeah, it’s great. I love it. I wouldn’t trade it, but it is more than I thought I was signing up for. Absolutely.

Debbi (11:53): I think the technology has made it so, as well as the proliferation of social media, and I’m not sure that social media is nearly as important as a lot of people think it is.

Tom (12:06): I think if you have to pick social media or doing an email list, a hundred percent always, pick email.

Debbi (12:13): Absolutely. And I think you have to be careful about which social media you decide to use too, because some just seem to lend themselves to people better than others. I hear it all the time. Use something that you’re comfortable with as opposed to trying to wrap your mind around every single one out there.

Tom (12:33): Right. The advice I used to hear, I know Mark Dawson mentioned this at some point, but I don’t know if he’s the originator of the advice, but it was always for social media platforms, pick two, and one of them should be Facebook simply because you can run Facebook ads. That’s probably still true, but you should also go where your audience is. Not everybody’s audience is on Facebook.

Debbi (12:54): Absolutely. I agree. Totally. So what kind of marketing do you do and how much of it?

Tom (13:06): As little as possible.

Debbi (13:07): I know the feeling,

Tom (13:11): Yeah. I do have a Facebook ad, two Facebook ads that run one to The Mechanic, which is the first Tyler book, and one to a box set on my direct store, my Shopify store. There’s another aspect of indie authoring that I didn’t think I would have to get involved in, selling my books directly. I have an Amazon ad. It’s a defensive ad, I guess, targeting me and my books, and that’s really, in terms of advertising, that’s all I do, and that doesn’t work out to be a great amount of money. Every month I have a newsletter that I send every two weeks. I do things like BookBub, FreeBooksy, those kind of newsletter promos. Periodically. I am on social media, but I don’t talk about my books a ton. I feel like all those “buy my book” posters, most of ’em are very tacky, and I don’t want to do that.

Debbi (14:04): Yeah, they are

Tom (14:05): I want to engage with people and not just hit them over the head with a book. I don’t think that’s the point of it. So that’s really what I do. I think most, unless you’re doing a ton of marketing, you can probably do most of this in an hour or two a week.

Debbi (14:25): I think you’re right. Frankly,

Tom (14:27): Maybe a little more on the weeks I write a newsletter. That always takes a little bit of time, but for the most part, I think a lot of it can be an hour or two a week. And if I were starting over, I think I would only send my newsletter once a month instead of every two weeks. But now I’m locked into that cadence and I’ve told people this is how often I’m going to send. So that’s what I do. But if I were starting over, it would probably be once a month. Yeah,

Debbi (14:46): I was going to say, you’re allowed to change your mind as long as you tell your readers. Sure. Let’s see. Do you do book signings? Just out of curiosity?

Tom (14:57): I haven’t yet. I was going to start doing them, and then Covid happened and people weren’t going to bookstores and all that. That’s something I’d like to start doing. I did one in 2019, I did a talk at a library in, oh God, Charles County, I think, and sold some books and did a signing afterwards. That’s something I’d like to get more into. There’s a lot of bookstores near me. There’s a few Barnes and Nobles. There’s some independent bookstores that are in the area or within, say, an hour’s drive because Columbia, Baltimore, DC, all those places are within an hour’s drive for me. So there’s a lot of possibilities there. So that’s something I’d like to start doing, but I haven’t done a lot of yet.

Debbi (15:41): Yeah, I’ve done a couple since the pandemic, or actually I’ve done one since the Pandemic, and I did one right before the Pandemic, and it’s like, I feel like I should do more. I feel like I should be out there more just meeting people. Have you ever considered crowdfunding your books?

Tom (16:04): I have, and I’ve done two Kickstarters so far. For me, they’re more, I don’t know that I would do. I wouldn’t do one all the time for every release. I think that’s too much. I think they’re more for special, more special projects, but it’s certainly a viable way to release a book. The one caveat I would offer, the first one I ran, I tried to do it specifically for an audiobook, and there’s a large segment of people out there who just do not care about audiobooks. It is a growing market, but more people read either eBooks or physical books than read audiobooks. So if you’re going to do a Kickstarter and you’re trying to fund an audiobook, that’s fine. Just don’t say, this is from my audiobook. You’re immediately going to turn off 80% of the people who might be interested in it. Offer audiobook as a reward certainly, but also make sure you have ebook, print, other stuff in there.

(17:05): There’s a few books out there on how to set up a Kickstarter. I think Monica Leonelle and Russell P. Nohelty have the best one I’ve seen so far. I think it’s called Get Your Book Selling on Kickstarter. Has some really good advice in there. That’s what I’ve used. So my first campaign was audiobook centric and did not fund. My second one did. I have not yet run a third. I haven’t found the right project yet. I don’t want to do it just like, oh, here’s thriller number eight. Let’s do a Kickstarter. It doesn’t seem special enough to me. That’s just a normal release, but if I had something different or something special I was putting out, I would absolutely do it again.

Debbi (17:42): Yeah, it’s not a bad thing to do. If nothing else, you can get people on board with what it is you’re writing, the kind of thing you write. It’s like you attract the right people to yourself by doing that, I think.

Tom (18:01): Yes.

Debbi (18:03): And have you, just out of curiosity, thought of using either Substack or Patreon?

Tom (18:09): I’ve thought about it. It’s a function of time more than anything. Do I think I could reach people on those platforms? Yeah. They’re not really discovery platforms though, so I think you kind of have to bring an audience with you or send people to those places. And for what I would be providing there is the time outlay worth it. I don’t know. There are people who absolutely do well on substack, Patreon, other subscription based platforms. It is a second job for me. I don’t need it to be a first. I don’t want it to be my first job. So a lot of that is a function of, I don’t know if I have the time to do this or to do it really the way I would want to do it.

Debbi (19:01): Yeah. So what is your profession, your day job?

Tom (19:07): Yeah. I work in IT for the federal government.

Debbi (19:11): Ah, which agency?

Tom (19:13): FDA.

Debbi (19:16): Oh, my goodness. I’m a former Fed myself. Used to work with the EPA for a while.

Tom (19:22): Oh, nice.

Debbi (19:23): Yeah, it was a living, I suppose. Which is more than I can say for my writing career at this point. What advice would you give to anyone who is interested in a writing career?

Tom (19:37): Oh boy. There’s probably a lot of things that I could say there. I think the biggest one would be to know why you want to do it or what you want to get out of it. You might want to, maybe you’re a hobbyist who just wants to put up the book you’ve had in your head for 20 years, or your poetry collection or whatever, or your grandmother’s life story is particularly inspiring and you want to write about that and get it in the hands of family and friends, and you don’t really care if anybody else reads it or maybe you want to do this full time. Those are very different goals. They’re all very fine goals in and of themselves, but they’re very different. And the amount of time and other resources you may have to commit to them is going to vary wildly. So know why you want to do it and have those expectations set accordingly.

Debbi (20:34): That is very, very good advice, knowing your why are you doing this?

Tom (20:40): Yes.

Debbi (20:41): Because a lot of people don’t care if they make a bestseller list or even make a living off their writing. They want to get published, they want to express themselves, whatever.

Tom (20:56): Yeah.

Debbi (20:56): I think sometimes we lose that joy of getting what you want to say out there or in service to something else. We’re so worried about making money from it that we can’t think about the joy of doing it as much. So what I really like to focus on is the joy of doing it.

Tom (21:19): Yeah.

Debbi (21:19): It’s very important.

Tom (21:20): If you don’t enjoy it, then you’re doing wrong. If you’re not enjoying this.

Debbi (21:23): Yeah. I mean, there’s so much involved. There’s so much work involved. Why would you do it unless you enjoyed it?

Tom (21:30): Right.

Debbi (21:30): So yeah.

Tom (21:32): The only piece of advice I would definitely have, and this is more of a avoiding scams thing, is money should always flow to the author. If you were traditionally published, that will come in the form of either an advance or some royalties that your publisher sends you. If you are self-published, you collect the money from Amazon, Kobo, whoever, do not pay anyone to publish your book.

Debbi (21:57): Thank you for saying that, because too often I hear about people paying to get published, too often. It amazes me because you are the owner of this intellectual property and you are licensing it to a publisher or to whoever, whether Amazon or whatever platform you’re putting it up on. It’s a license for them to distribute it. So don’t pay to get published, period. Do not. Well, thank you so much for being here and telling us about your books and about your writing and the fact that you’re doing this while working is to me, amazing. So many books too. So you must write really fast.

Tom (22:43): Yeah. The first one took me over seven years to go from starting it to getting it published, made a few process improvements, I guess you could say in the time since. But now I can pretty much turn around a first draft in six or seven weeks-ish, and I send to my editor in chunks and he sends them back to me. So at first, I would just send him the whole book when I was done, and it would take him several weeks to get it back to me. But now I just send six chapters, six chapters, whatever, and this way he finishes a week after I do, and things are ready to go much faster.

Debbi (23:22): Wow. That’s a nice arrangement. Well, again, thanks for being here. I really appreciate it and absolutely stick around afterward, we’ll do a bonus episode together.

Tom (23:34): Sure. Thanks for having me.

Debbi (23:35): Sure thing. It was my pleasure. I would like to thank everyone also for listening, and if you enjoyed the episode, please leave a review and check us out on Patreon where you can get access to bonus episodes as well as chapters from my work that I post there. Next time, my guest will be Pablo Trincia. I believe that’s how it’s pronounced. He’s the author of All the Lies They Did Not Tell, which is quite a story about a big scandal in Italy. Until then, take care and happy reading.

*****

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This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Catherine Rymsha.

Check out our discussion about leadership skills and crime fiction writing.

You can download a PDF of the transcript here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest today has a career in workplace communication and management. She teaches leadership skills and has a nonfiction book called The Leadership Decision which she published before her crime novel. Her crime novel is Stunning. It’s called Stunning, and in addition, she has given a TED Talk on the importance of listening, so listen up. You might learn something. It’s my great pleasure to have with me today, Catherine Rymsha. I hope I’m pronouncing that correctly.

Catherine: You are. Thank you. Yes, you are.

Debbi: Excellent. Wonderful.

Catherine: So happy to be here.

Debbi: I was going to ask you about that, and I’d completely forgotten, in the big hubbub of trying to get connected.

Catherine: That’s fine.

Debbi: You wouldn’t believe, people. Anyway, thank you so much for being here. What is it that made you decide to write a novel, and a mystery at that?

Catherine: I love murders.

Debbi: Who doesn’t?

Catherine: It’s so odd saying that, but I’m talking to an audience who understands that. I love crime, I love murder. Even as a kid, I was reading like the Fear Street books and R.L. Stein and Goosebumps, and then ventured into Stephen King and then started to watch everything on ID, and 20/20 and Dateline, and all of those shows that dig into it. When I was a kid, I always wanted to write and I fell into leadership and wrote a ton about leadership, which for some, that’s not the most thrilling topic in the world, which I understand totally. But then, I was pregnant when I wrote Stunning. It was a dream. It was based on a dream that I had, and I kept having the dream, and I thought maybe I should write this down and I just started writing. I would write before bed and just write, write, write when I had time and I wasn’t sleeping or working a real job, and that’s how it came about. It just felt like it needed to get out of my brain.

Debbi: Interesting. So do you picture writing more books, or is this like your one shot ?

Catherine: I just came out with a textbook, also not as thrilling, very academic, but I want to get back into writing murder and crime and even if I could do something based on real life murder or crime. I think those are things that are interesting to me to explore next. But I do want to start getting into it and I keep saying that, and I thought all summer I’ll write another book. And now summer has come and gone and the book is not written. So I’m thinking, well, maybe in the fall. I say that and I laugh because I don’t know if it’s going to happen that quickly, but it’s more fun than writing leadership. I mean, leadership is important but crime and murder and making things up is way more fun.

Debbi: Making things up is fun.

Catherine: Yes.

Debbi: It’s its own form of work, but at the same time it’s fun work.

Catherine: It is fun work.

Debbi: Yeah. Your books – do you have a traditional, hybrid or are you self-published?

Catherine: I am self-published with my first two, but the textbook, I did work with a publishing company, so that was interesting too, to have that experience after doing two on my own and working with editors and beta readers and that whole spiel.

Debbi: The whole shebang, yes.

Catherine: The whole team.

Debbi: I was going to ask you about your publishing journey. What has it been like for you? Has it been what you expected?

Catherine: With the first one, it was a learning curve, because I wanted to find an editor and I found an excellent editor named Sandy. She was so great at walking me through the entire process because she’s very experienced and does a lot of writing herself and writes books for authors trying to get published for the first time, and she is just brilliant at everything she does. So with having her, that was amazing. I can’t quite remember how I found her. I think I just found her through an online platform or a Google search or something, but she was a huge help. So even though I found it a little overwhelming at times and expensive at times, she really made it feel worth it. And then with the second book, it felt like a breeze because I knew what to expect and it just went a lot quicker.

But I would say there’s so many tools out there, as you know, for authors to use and to benefit from and to get their work out there that it’s no longer … I can look back now and think it’s not as bad as what I thought it was going to be. It can be expensive and you sell books but I haven’t kind of broken even with it yet. So that’s been interesting too.

Debbi: It does add up. Everything out there does add up. It’s incredible. So what is your writing schedule like then?

Catherine: I write at night. I have two twin boys who are two now. Like I said, I was pregnant with them when I was writing the book and publishing it. But now it’s trying to fit it in when I can. So whether it’s before bed, between classes at UMass or early in the morning if I wake up before my kids, then those are the times that I try to fit it in. I wish I had more time, which I know everybody says, to write, but I think it’s just that matter of discipline, committing to a schedule.

Debbi: It’s a matter of discipline. Yes, very much so. It sounds like you have a plan that involves catching time periods where you can, how you can pretty much.

Catherine: Yes. I was listening to another one of your podcasts about writing in the airport and even just having that pen and paper, and I think that’s the thing. I take voice memos and then I take a screenshot of what the voice memo picked up, because if I don’t remember this thought or idea, I’m going to lose it. I don’t often have pencils and paper around these days.

Debbi: Yes. That’s true. I’ve done that myself actually. I find all sorts of things I wrote years ago that I forgot about. It’s interesting. What authors have most inspired you to write in this genre?

Catherine: I think it’s going back to that R.L. Stein starting as a kid. I think those Fear Street books, Goosebumps books really caught my attention. Also then in high school, I started reading Stephen King, as most high schoolers start to do. I shouldn’t say most high schoolers. I think at the time a lot of my colleagues and peers and friends were. I don’t know if Stephen King is as popular now with the younger demographic, although I want to make sure. I assume he is, but I think folks like that who were pretty mainstream and out there and being published and seen as real authors were the ones that got me kind of hungry to write, and now many years later, writing in this particular genre.

Debbi: Yes. I have to read those Goosebumps books sometime because I keep hearing about them. It’s a period that I didn’t because I didn’t have kids so there are all these children’s books that sound so intriguing to me that I don’t know about.

Catherine: I look back and I think – I didn’t mean to interrupt you – but I’m like, oh my gosh, I was reading some of this at 12, 13. 10 I think I started with some of these books, and they got their hooks in me, I guess.

Debbi: I think they can be equally entertaining for adults.

Catherine: Oh, totally.

Debbi: I like that. I love stuff like that, just to go off and read a middle grade or a child’s book or a teenage, a young adult just for something different, to get away from the adults for a while.

Catherine: Oh, a hundred percent. Gives you a new perspective.

Debbi: Yes. Your book is set in New England, correct? Which is where you are.

Catherine: Yes. I’m in Massachusetts in the greater Newburyport area, so if you’re looking at a map, right on the New Hampshire/Massachusetts line, and my book kind of bounces around with perspective. So it’s thinking about some activities happening years ago in Boston or even at Amherst, and some events happening here in Newburyport, and then some bouncing up to Mount Katahdin in Maine, and really just having some fun with playing around with locations and perspective and time. That’s where I tried to weave some of that into Stunning.

Debbi: That sounds like fun. I love when a book gives you a sense of the place where it’s set, and it sounds like it’s set in some pretty interesting places. I’ve been to Mount Katahdin. [Correction: It was actually Cadillac Mountain.] It’s really nice. We went camping there and I remember the shoreline reminded me of California.

Catherine: Yes. Beautiful

Debbi: The rocky shoreline.

Catherine: It’s beautiful. I mean, Maine’s got so many great spots, but that Mount Katahdin is breathtaking.

Debbi: Yeah. Wow. If there’s one trait or theme that tends to come out in your writing, what do you think it would … the most major theme or device or whatever you use in your work, what would it be?

Catherine: I think it’s perspective. When I teach, and like I said, I teach leadership and management, and I talk often about perspective that people can look at a leader and somebody can think they’re amazing and excellent, and some people can think they’re a complete dud, and it’s always the debate of who’s right or who’s wrong. And this is where, when I wrote Stunning, I talked so much about perception is reality, and how do you understand behavior from a business and management standpoint that I wanted to incorporate some of that into Stunning of like, okay, here’s the perception of one person and how they’re thinking and seeing a situation. Here’s the perspective and thoughts of another person who is going to see that situation in a very different and unique way. And if you’re trying to think about peoples’ sides to stories and making your own assumptions and conclusions and your own perception of what’s going on or what’s happening, I think that was one thing that I try to get across in leadership is that there are different sides and different perceptions. That was one thing that when I wrote Stunning, I wanted to be kind of factual of dates and times, because I just tend to think like that. But it was also the matter too, of thinking, Hey, this is how this person is seeing something that’s going to come up with a murder, and this is how this other person’s going to see and experience it, and how do you as the reader make your own conclusions in starting to think about what’s happening or what’s going to unfold.

Debbi: Yes. It’s interesting playing with peoples’ perspectives and perceptions. It’s key to writing a mystery, really.

Catherine: It totally is.

Debbi: It’s exploring peoples’ psychology at the same time that you’re telling the story. Pretty cool.

Catherine: And I think for some of the books and even the crime shows or murder shows that I watch or listen to and what have you, I think the ones that have characters that have opinions or perspective and you feel like you can relate to them or that you would be their friend in “real life” are the ones that really do resonate with me the most, so trying to think about what that looks like for my own writing .

Debbi: Absolutely. Really. What advice would you give to somebody who would like to write for a living?

Catherine: I would say find a good editor. Like I said, my editor Sandy Wendell has been absolutely phenomenal. She’s just an expert in this, and I think if I hadn’t met her, I don’t think I would’ve done more. I still work with her. I beta read for a lot of other folks that she’s editing for, and I have a great relationship with her. I think it’s a matter of finding an editor and doing your research, because I did use one website and I found an editor for my fiction book, and the editor on there charged me an incredible amount of money to edit it and they didn’t edit the book. It was a bit of a nightmare and thinking of saying to this editor, you didn’t edit it. Oh yes, I did. And you have to then go through line by line and try to …

Debbi: Oh my God!

Catherine: Self-edit and then try to talk to the company that joined the two of you together by saying hey, I just spent $2000 or $1800, whatever it was at the time, to have somebody look at this.

Debbi: Oh, my gosh.

Catherine: And I thought it was a nightmare. They did side with me because there was so much not done in the book, which would’ve been very embarrassing to put out there. But I would say if somebody’s thinking about getting into this, find a good editor or find another author as a peer or a mentor to walk you through the process, and then it doesn’t seem as bad or scary.

Debbi: Have you ever considered joining a writer’s group?

Catherine: I have. And I did it more when I was, I say younger in writing, maybe in my college, early twenties when I was writing a lot, but not really doing anything with it. I am involved with a writers’ group now on Facebook, although I hate to admit that I don’t really do much with it, but I can see the people’s conversations and comments and what have you, and gatherings and things that they do. And I think, gosh, I really should do more of this because this could be of a huge value and then I just don’t. But I would say that those types of groups and support, to your point, can be incredibly beneficial in trying to navigate this and understand it, especially like the marketing of books after it’s all said and done because that’s its whole other monster.

Debbi: Oh, yes. I don’t think people really have a sense of how much work authors do in terms of marketing their books. It’s just incredible. And especially now when there’s just so much to choose from, it’s almost like you’ve got the paradox of choice at work here. It’s like okay, which one of these things is really best for me?

Catherine: Right, right, right.

Debbi: I suspect what it comes down to is you have to pick something that you think works for you and is actually making connections or something to that effect. That’s just my theory.

Catherine: I think it’s a good one. It’s a good theory to have.

Debbi: It’s all I can ever suggest to anybody. Find something that seems to work for you and lean into that. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up about your books, about what your plans are? Anything?

Catherine: So, again, ready to go back to teach in a couple weeks with school just around the corner. Like I said, I don’t think I’m ever going to write a textbook again, but I would say that’s been a pretty thrilling experience. But the one thing that I’ve noticed, especially since I do a lot of I’ll say beta reading for people who are working with Sandy, is that so many people have so many great book ideas, and they put so much into their books. Some of the books that I’ve beta read for her have been brilliant. And then sometimes you get these books from people trying to write and publish their first book and kind of check that off their “bucket list”. And it seems like people try to – and I hate this expression but I’m going to use it – boil the ocean.

People with that first book. I think they’re trying to get everything in it in order to have it be representative of them and their life and their writing and their expertise and how brilliant they are. I get it because people have lives. They want to share that. I mean, the point of being a writer is thinking about those connections and considering how you can change the world or bring value or whatever that might look like to someone’s noble cause in doing this. The reason I bring that up is because I think for people who are considering writing or even other writers, it’s just a matter of understanding. You don’t have to do it all in one book. You can write another, and there’s nothing wrong with writing articles. It doesn’t always have to be a book. I think that’s one thing that I’m thinking about a lot is that you don’t have to always write a book to be a writer. There are other ways to write too.

Debbi: Absolutely correct. Absolutely. I just did a book review for a local newspaper for the first time in, I don’t know how many years. It’s been a long, long time. So it was really kind of a cool experience to do that. Just to be able to do that

Catherine: That’s cool. That’s awesome.

Debbi: Well, it’s been a pleasure talking to you. Before we go, I just want to ask, do you think it would help authors to take leadership courses or to learn more about leadership in general?

Catherine: Ooh, that’s a great question. I never thought about that. I think everyone can benefit from a leadership class, and it doesn’t necessarily need to be like an MBA level seminar of struggling through 12, 8, 16, whatever the week amount is. There’s so many great podcasts and webinars on leadership out there that people can benefit from. But I think even where an intro course can be beneficial is trying to help people think about their own behavior and how they are perceived, like we’ve been talking about, but also trying to understand where they could make small tweaks in how they interact with others that can make them more effective. People always say I want to be a better communicator. Well, that too is this huge loaded word. Well, what does that look like? I think this is where authors can think about how they show up when they talk or represent their book or on social media, and how are they seen as leaders themselves? So I think there’s benefits in understanding how you want to be perceived and what you want your own brand to look like.

One thing that I talk about with my students a lot is what’s your leadership brand? Some consultants and academics call it a leadership legacy. I like the idea of a brand. How do you want people to define the value that you bring? And to your question, I think that lens can be applied to writing and being an author. What do you want people to feel when they read what you write? How do you want to be perceived? How do you want people to talk about you when you’re not there? I think those can be all important parts of leadership, but also in being an author.

Debbi: That’s great what you’re saying. You’re reading my mind a little bit.

Catherine: Oh, good. Perfect.

Debbi: We’re kind of vibing here. I definitely get what you’re saying and it’s really good advice.

Catherine: Oh, good. Hope it helps.

Debbi: Oh, I think everybody could benefit from learning about leadership skills and how to take responsibility for your own career. Learn to use your strengths, lean into your strengths rather than trying to do everything, all that kind of stuff, delegating when necessary.

Catherine: Yes. All those loaded things.

Debbi: Yes. All those things, but I want to thank you so much for being here and talking with us today. Thank you for sharing your expertise now with us. Everybody should watch your Ted Talk

Catherine: My pleasure. Thank you.

Debbi: What’s it called again?

Catherine: Want to become a better leader? Here’s how. Just listen. So a little play on words there.

Debbi: Just listen. Yeah, just listen. Always good to listen.

Catherine: Yes.

Debbi: So I’ll just put in a quick plug while we’re at it for my fundraiser. I’ve started a team to raise funds for the Dystonia Medical Research Foundation. I have dystonia, so I know what it’s like. I know that there should be more research done to find a cure for this condition. I will include a link with the show notes and hopefully, it’s free to join the team. You don’t have to pay anything, but if you can join the team, it helps show support for raising money for this condition that people don’t know about. A lot of people don’t know about it. It’s a movement disorder, in case you were wondering. So in any case, on that note, I will just finish up by saying that our next guest will be Tom Fowler. And until then, take care and happy reading.

*****

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This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Anna Willett.

Check out our discussion about thriller writing and her Cold Case Mystery series.

You can download a PDF of the transcript here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest today is the author of several thriller novels, including five books in The Cold Case Mystery series. Her latest book is called Needles and Pins, and it’s this week’s giveaway, so make sure to check out the giveaway on my blog or on her Instagram. You can find it there on Instagram for sure. So it is my pleasure to introduce as my guest the author, Anna Willett. Hi Anna. How are you doing today?

Anna: Hi, I’m well. How are you?

Debbi: Good, thank you, although right now at the moment, I’m in Maryland where tornadoes are threatening somewhere on the horizon.

Anna: Oh really?

Debbi: Yes. Apparently we’ve been getting tornado warnings in different parts, not too far from where I live, but it’s all very sketchy right now. Hopefully I won’t be interrupting this podcast to dive under a desk or into a bathroom or something. I don’t know where I’d go.

Anna: Oh, that’s scary.

Debbi: It is. They are scary. In any case, let’s talk about your thrilling novels rather than my thrilling tornadoes. At what point did you decide to write a series?

Anna: Well, as I said in the post, I wrote a book called The Woman Behind Her, and the main character finds herself as the suspect in a murder. The lead detective on that case was Veronica Pope, who I became very interested in and wanted to write more of, and I thought, I think that I can do a lot more with this character, and so I’m going to write another book. So after really what was the second book in the series, I thought, there’s so much more I could do. There’s so many more places I could take her. I had so many more ideas for the sort of situation she could be in and her team, and it went from there.

Debbi: It’s fascinating. How many books had you written before you made that decision to go after that series?

Anna: I think it would’ve been 13, maybe 12 or 13 books.

Debbi: That’s very interesting how a character gripped you to the point where you decided to create a series for the first time.

Anna: Yes. Well, I’d had another series. It was just three books, and it was about a journalist, but all the others are standalones. And the woman behind her was, I thought, going to be a standalone, but it turned into this ongoing series.

Debbi: Yes, it’s fascinating. What inspired you to create Veronica Pope? What kind of inspiration went into creating the character itself?

Anna: Well, I wanted a female leader. I like to write about strong female lead characters, and so I wanted a female detective, and I wanted her to be – I’m going to say normal – so that she’s just an average woman who’s very good at her job, and she’s not a super cop. She’s not invulnerable to being hurt. She cares; she worries about things. She has her insecurities, she has her family life. She’s a single mother. She has ambitions for her job, but she’s also a little bit funny and down to earth, and that’s the sort of character I would like to read.

Debbi: Yeah, a very relatable sort of character.

Anna: Yeah, yeah.

Debbi: And skilled.

Anna: Yes. So I wanted her to be really good at her job and very insightful and very observant, but at the same time, I wanted her to have the same worries that most people would.

Debbi: Yes, exactly. Do you plan to write more books in the series?

Anna: I haven’t decided. I’m not sure. I might. If something comes to me, if an idea comes to me that I think would be perfect for Veronica. Not all, but quite a few of the books I drew from real unsolved cases in Western Australia. This last one was not one of those, but most of them I’ve drawn on those cases. Some were unsolved when I wrote them. Some were solved, but not really to the satisfaction of knowing everything about them. So I sort of drew on those cases and took them in another direction and put Veronica in them. So if something comes up that fascinates me, a crime or an unsolved cold case, then I might take that and write about that with Veronica.

Debbi: So it sounds like you take a lot of inspiration from true crime.

Anna: In Western Australia, yes. The previous one, The Ideal Couple, which is set in a small mining town way outside of Perth, I took the inspiration from a real life case where a husband and wife went out into the Outback and were prospecting and went missing, and it’s never been solved. And so I took that and changed it and put Veronica into it, and she comes in when it’s a cold case and she manages to solve it. So those sort of things, I think, oh, we don’t really know anything about what happened and what if it was this and this and this, and then I could put Veronica in there. If something grabs me like that, I’d definitely write another one.

Debbi: Cool. It sounds like each of these books are not necessarily part of a planned arc for the series, more like things come to you and they’re more spontaneous, like, what would she do in this situation?

Anna: Yes, yes, that’s exactly right. So there’s no real arc to it. I sort of know where she’s going on her journey, but the cases that will come across her desk and the ones that she’ll want to investigate, I’ll wait for the inspiration for those.

Debbi: That’s really cool. That’s great. How would you describe your writing to someone who’s never read your work?

Anna: I would say that most of my books are thrillers, even the crime, the Cold Case series, they are thrillers, mystery/suspense thrillers. Most of my books are thrillers. A few are horror. I have a few horror as well as straight thrillers. A couple of them are supernatural horror. Quite a lot of them are domestic thrillers. So it just depends on the inspiration and the story ideas. I usually have a few ideas in a queue in my brain when I’m deciding which one to work on next. But, if you like thrillers, if you like mystery, if you like suspense, tension, and they’re probably a little bit grittier than a cozy mystery, for example.

Debbi: Right, right. They sound like fun.

Anna: They are fun to write.

Debbi: What kind of readers do you generally attract? Do you have a sense of who you appeal to?

Anna: I think I appeal to a lot of overseas readers who are interested in thrillers and crime and suspense, but also enjoy the location as it’s something new for many of them. Most people don’t know very much about Western Australia. Most people know more about the Eastern states, and because Perth is the most isolated city in the world, you sort of have a feeling it’s a place where anything could happen, and I think that appeals to a lot of overseas readers.

Debbi: Well, I’m intrigued. Sounds fascinating. How much research do you do when you prepare to write?

Anna: I do quite a lot of research, particularly for the series because it’s a police procedural, so I try to be as accurate as I possibly can be. I have a friend who is a former Western Australian police detective, and I talk to him a lot about how do you think they would react in this situation? What do you think would be the next step when they’re doing this? Is it feasible that they would do this? How would they access this information? What exactly do you think they would say when serving a search warrant in this situation? Where would that allow them to search? Would I have to have a separate warrant for that? I try to get all the details as correct as I can possibly get them so there’s that authenticity.

Debbi: Yes, yes. If you’re going to do police procedural type stuff, you definitely need that.

Anna: And unlike a lot of other places in the world, there’s not a lot of information on any procedural elements in Western Australia. You can buy books on police procedures in the UK and in some parts of America, but you can’t really find anything on Western Australia in that way.

Debbi: How interesting.

Anna: So you really need someone you can ask.

Debbi: Yes, because things do have a tendency to change from region to region.

Anna: Yes. In Australia it’s a little bit more like the UK. Generally it’s the same, but in each state there’s a different police force. Most things are very similar in the way that they would operate, but I want it to be as authentic as I can make it.

Debbi: Sometimes I’ve noticed in the United States anyway, from county to county, some things can change about the way business is done, so I was wondering if the same thing was true of Eastern and Western Australia?

Anna: Not to the same extent as probably in America. We sort of mirror the British system here in Australia for the most part, and although there are different police forces, most procedural things would be very similar. There might be slight changes, differences in the law in different states, but it’s a very similar sort of approach in every state.

Debbi: Right, right. What authors do you find most inspiring to read?

Anna: I really enjoy Karin Slaughter, and I like Michael Connelly, Paula Hawkins, Clare Mackintosh. I have been reading a bit of Colleen Hoover, which is not crime, which is unusual for me to not be reading crime, but I do enjoy her writing as well. I like Stephen King. I’ll read anything. If it’s a good story, I’ll read anything, but my fallback is usually thrillers and crime.

Debbi: Yes. Are you more of a plotter or a pantser?

Anna: I’m a pantser

Debbi: People know. Nobody has to think twice about that one.

Anna: Yes.

Debbi: Interesting.

Anna: I try. Sometimes I think, yes, I’m going to plot a little bit more this time and I’ll write it all out. And then next thing I know, everything has taken me somewhere completely that I didn’t expect to go.

Debbi: That’s interesting. I find that I can plan things, but I don’t necessarily stick to plan, let’s put it that way.

Anna: Sticking to the plan, it’s hard to stick to the plan when the characters and the situation are telling you something else.

Debbi: Exactly. Precisely. What are you working on now?

Anna: I’m working on a standalone thriller at the moment, a domestic thriller. I’m also working on a horror novel when I have time as well. So I’m sort of writing one and writing a little bit of the other one at the same time. I’m taking my time on this standalone novel. I’m not rushing it or anything like that, so I don’t know when it will be finished, but it’s more of a domestic thriller.

Debbi: I think it’s good to take one’s time on things.

Anna: Yes. I’m enjoying taking my time. I guess the central theme of it in some ways is elder abuse.

Debbi: Ah, I’ve seen that come up a lot in books lately.

Anna: Well, it’s something that’s very real and it’s more common than I think most people realize. I’ve spoken to a lot of people about it, family and nurses from nursing homes and yes, it’s something that’s very real and I think often not really explored.

Debbi: What sort of writing schedule do you keep?

Anna: I usually write at night. I’m more of an evening writer. I don’t write in the morning or anything like that. I like to write later in the night, and I like to write longhand in a notebook and then I transcribe in the day.

Debbi: Interesting that you write out by longhand first. I haven’t done that in ages.

Anna: I didn’t used to. I started just typing and that’s how I did the first few books. But then when I started writing notes and then more notes, I just found the ideas came a little bit easier when I’m using the pen than when I’m typing. And for some reason it just seems to come easier to me and flow more. I get a sore hand, but it comes easier, the ideas and the words.

Debbi: I can understand that actually, because I have a tendency to write movie reviews and book reviews out at night

Anna: I love it.

Debbi: But especially movie reviews, I find out I will just sit down and just start writing them out, and they just kind of read okay. It’s like, I could put this up on a blog, which I do.

Anna: It flows. It flows really well when you’re writing by hand, I think.

Debbi: It’s interesting. I never thought about doing novels that way or anything like that.

Anna: I fill a lot of notebooks.

Debbi: I fill up a lot of notebooks as well. Oh God. I journal. I spent years journaling. It seems like decades even. What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in writing for a living?

Anna: It wouldn’t be an easy road if it’s for a living. Don’t expect that to happen really quickly, or with one book. It takes a lot of time, a lot of work, a lot of books, a lot of hours spent writing. Just keep persevering and write another one and another one. And if the one you write does okay, but it’s not great, you just have to write another one. You just have to keep going.

Debbi: That’s it. Absolutely. Never give up.

Anna: And don’t expect it to make you a fortune when you write one and publish them. Having modest expectations, I think would be the best thing. And don’t give up your day job.

Debbi: Exactly. Totally right. Total words of wisdom there, folks. Really! Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Anna: No, just that I really enjoyed this. I was really looking forward to talking to you.

Debbi: Same here. Well, I really appreciate your being here, and thank you so much.

Anna: Well, you’re welcome. It was fun.

Debbi: It was fun for me too. Someday I hope to visit Australia.

Anna: I think you would love it like most people. Yes, you should definitely come to Perth. It’s a wonderful place to visit.

Debbi: Oh, cool. I will definitely keep that in mind. Have to go, have to go places. In any case, I just want to thank you again for spending time with us, Anna, and my thanks to everyone listening. If you enjoyed the show, please leave a review if you would. It helps. We are also Patreon supported with bonus episodes and other perks for supporters, so check that out if you would – patreon.com/crimecafe. So until next time, when our guest will be Catherine Rymsha, take care and happy reading.

*****

Here’s the link again!

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features The Adventures of Philip Marlowe in “The Orange Dog.”

And my thanks to Old Time Radio Researchers Group for the content. You’re awesome!

In this episode, Debbi Mack and F.R. Jameson discuss the classic film noir, Kiss Me Deadly (1955).

Directed by Robert Aldrich

Screenplay by A.I. Bezzerides and Robert Aldrich (uncredited)

Based on the 1952 novel, Kiss Me, Deadly, by Mickey Spillane

Produced by Robert Aldrich

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Michael J. Young, MD.

Check out our discussion about his medical thrillers and enter his book giveaway here!

You can download a PDF of the transcript here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. Today my guest is a doctor who spent 30 years as a surgeon while living and practicing medicine in Chicago. He’s the author of a memoir/assessment of the current medical system – oh my – titled The Illness of Medicine: Experiences of Clinical Practice. He’s also authored a trilogy of medical thrillers, and they all sound absolutely terrifying. I say that in the nicest possible way. I mean it in the best possible way. Anyway, he is also on the faculty of the Departments of Urology and Biomedical Engineering at the University of Illinois at Chicago. He has invented and patented various medical devices, too. Amazing guy! It’s my pleasure to introduce Dr. Michael J. Young, medical thriller writer and M.D. Hi, Michael. How are you doing today?

Michael: I’m wonderful, thank you.

Debbi: Great. Fantastic. Wow. My first question to you, of course, is how are we going to fix our horrible healthcare system?

Michael: Oh, we could spend hours and days.

Debbi: Hours, yes. I was going to say, you probably ask the same question all the time in your books.

Michael: Every morning.

Debbi: Boy, I can tell you, I’ve had enough experience with it to know. So I was reading your first few chapters in Net of Deception and my gosh, what egregious examples of what not to do on the internet.

Michael: Yes, it is. Well, actually, Net of Deception evolved out of my dissatisfaction and distrust and frustration, if you will, with the online pharmaceutical access that people have. As easy as it is, and in many ways, the advantages of having it are great, but the disadvantage is that patients don’t have the opportunity to truly have informed consent about potentially very dangerous drugs. And in this particular scenario, nefarious activity occurred within the company that was selling these drugs. So it was really predicated on my own frustration with that evolution of how drugs are obtained today.

Debbi: Yes. And not to mention medical information in general on the internet.

Michael: Yes. Again, it’s a double-edged sword. I encourage people to have information. The problem with the internet is that you don’t always know the reliability or the source of that information. And although it may say it’s from so-and-so, it may not be. And so a consumer of this data, of this knowledge, of this vocabulary has to be extraordinarily mindful and diligent in assuring that they’re obtaining that information from a reliable source.

Debbi: Yes, absolutely. And so often things will depend on other factors that aren’t being addressed in the information that you have, so that you don’t have the whole picture.

Michael: No, you don’t, and that carries over too much of the direct consumer advertising of drugs. I mean, there’s only two countries in the world that allow it – the United States and New Zealand. That’s it. And so when you hear or watch these ads on TV, everything looks wonderful but you’re only getting a snippet because there’s only so much time with which that information can be given to you and you can’t decipher it. The legal information that’s given is boilerplate. Everybody has the same side effects.

Debbi: It’s read very fast.

Michael: Very fast, but also at the end, you may die. You may this, you may that. Well, of course. And so how is a consumer supposed to make that decision? But unfortunately for us as physicians, patients come to the office with a preconceived solution to the problem without really understanding the problem. But they’ve had this wonderful advertisement telling them all the benefits. And so if you don’t fulfill that requisite, they become very frustrated and they will shop till they find someone who will prescribe that particular medication or pill without really having an understanding of the disease or the alternatives. So it’s a problem.

Debbi: Yes. There’s a lot of reasons to be cautious while looking for information on the internet for those reasons.

Michael: Absolutely.

Debbi: Your trilogy. What inspired you to write a trilogy, and did you plan from the start to make it a trilogy?

Michael: That’s a very insightful question, and the answer is no, I did not. I guess it all begins with my frustration with the healthcare environment and our healthcare delivery system, which prompted me to write my first book. After I wrote that, I felt that I could convey the same information, discussing the entitlement and the greed and all of those things I was very dissatisfied with in the healthcare industry. If I fictionalized it, I could then reach a different group of readers who aren’t interested in reading a dialogue about healthcare. That’s about as dry as a desert to some people. They may be interested, but they don’t want to delve through that. Either it’s difficult emotionally, or they just don’t have the tolerance. They want to be entertained.

So I decided a way to entertain people but still convey the information of healthcare vulnerabilities was to fictionalize it. These books are not simple books. They are not Colonel Custard in the library with the lead pipe These are books that I have written in an effort to educate, perhaps subtly, but nonetheless give information. They are based on my personal experiences. I don’t know if you want me to delve into that, how that evolved, but I’m happy to.

Debbi: I think we can talk for a little bit about that, please.

Michael: Well, for instance, the first of the trilogy was Consequence of Murder: Algor Mortis is the title. And when you see algor mortis, what does that mean? Well, algor mortis is one of the initial phases of what occurs to a body after it dies. We have three of them: the livor mortis, which is translated as the color of death, where a body dies and because there’s no longer blood being pumped, the blood will pool to the back if a person is lying upright, face up. So if you turn the body over, the back will be crimson because the blood has pooled. Pardon me?

Debbi: Lividity. Is that what it is?

Michael: Well, no. It has to do with the fact that because gravity will take over and pull the blood down, and there’s nothing pumping or moving the blood, it will go to the most dependent portion of the body. So that’s why the body will be blanched on top and more crimson on the back. The third phase is rigor mortis, which I’m sure we’ve all heard of, which is translated from Latin as the stiffness of death. But in between them is one called algor mortis, which is translated as the coolness of death. And what that relates to, Debbi, is the fact that a human body will lower its temperature by one and a half degrees Fahrenheit per hour to ambient temperature. So when you’re watching television and the coroner says, the body’s been dead 12 hours, well, how do we know that? We know that because of the body temperature. So algor mortis relates to that temperature change.

And in writing this first book of the trilogy, it had to do with the fact that I once had a patient that I was operating on, that I came into a lot of bleeding in the kidney as I was working on a kidney stone with a laser. That stone eventually got stuck in blood, which clotted, which held it in place and made it easier to treat. I decided I needed a synthetic clot so I created one in the lab in my job as an innovator at the University of Illinois, and when I submitted it for patenting, the department and the university felt, well, this will be very expensive, so let’s put it on the shelf. To which I said, no, no, let me use this. I can kill somebody with this and I did so in a book.

And just to pull it together, I decided, well, how can we use this? Well, if I inject it in a vein, and this material starts as a liquid at cool temperature, and it solidifies at body temperature, I decided if I inject it in someone’s vein, it will then cause a clot, which will lead to a pulmonary embolism. Patient dies. They cool, and of course, when they cool the material liquefies again, so you can’t find it. So the plot started with my experiences with this material, and I developed a character, Jay Yamp, which I then put into the other novels. So they all feed into experiences in my life as a surgeon. but also they add a twist to show the vulnerability of patients in a hospital environment or medical environment.

Debbi: Oh, yes. Wow! That’s a mind blower there. I like that.

Michael: So all the books, they’re not simple stories. I mean, they’re interesting, but they’re not, again, just a police agent or FBI agent seeking for the killer. These have a medical association, something that has to do with physiology or anatomy, and I’m very mindful to explain all of this, but I think people like to hear that.

Debbi: That’s very cool. That’s great. I mean, I can appreciate, as a person who used to practice law, why you would want to take your experiences and put them in a fictionalized context, because I did it with my own books,

Michael: Right. And there is nothing better than reality to create fiction around that.

Debbi: Exactly.

Michael: Some of the things that happened to us, we could not make up.

Debbi: Precisely. Yeah. Sometimes you have to kind of think, okay, will people believe this?

Michael: Yeah, they do and they will.

Debbi: They do, yeah.

Michael: So that was CONSEQUENCE OF MURDER about that which was created in a lab used for a nefarious reason. NET OF DECEPTION had to do with online pharmaceutical vulnerability we have. And then the last of that group To Cure or Kill had to do with the development of a new anti-cancer vaccine and the pharmaceutical espionage around that. So again, all of these I would be hard pressed to say, is this fact or fiction? I think they all could occur.

Debbi: Right. Yeah. Scary stuff. Do you plan to extend the trilogy?

Michael: No, the trilogy is completed. I just finished a book and just published a book on a completely different venue. It had to do with some of the psychology of the game of golf, and how it relates to a metaphor to life. I co-authored that with a psychiatrist. But my next book, I’m going back to the murder mystery thrillers, so that will be book 6, and I’ll be starting writing on that probably in the fall in about six weeks, and that will return to our vulnerabilities and the risks involved in the healthcare environment, but it won’t be part of the trilogy. It will be freestanding.

Debbi: All right. With a different character, set of characters.

Michael: Different characters. Those three books have the same main character. This will be a different venue, different problem, and again, a contemporary issue that I think those who like this venue will be very intrigued with. It has to do with the DNA companies.

Debbi: Oh, wow. That’s a hot topic.

Michael: Yes.

Debbi: All of these are. What kind of writing schedule do you keep?

Michael: I don’t. I am not one who can sit down at 5 in the morning, 6 in the morning, 8 at night, whatever, and say, today I’m going to write. If it’s not there, it’s not there. I have an idea what I want to write, and when I have thought about it subconsciously enough, maybe that’s a day, maybe it’s a week, I don’t know, then I start. And once the ball gets going, I will come back to it frequently, but I will do it more based on my schedule rather than on a particular … I’m rigid at eight o’clock, I’m going to sit down and write. I can’t do that. That’s not how I think. When it’s flowing, it’s flowing and when it’s not, it’s not.

Debbi: I get it. Really. What authors have most inspired your own writing?

Michael: I would say Robin Cook, Michael Crichton and perhaps the reason I mention them is because … well, Crichton is deceased, but they’re both MDs. Robin Cook’s first book, THE YEAR OF THE INTERN, was a book about healthcare, very similar to my experiences in writing ILLNESS OF MEDICINE, and then he wrote a thriller COMA which was later made into a film with Michael Douglas, I believe was in it. My first novel was CONSEQUENCE OF MURDER.

Michael Crichton, also an MD, wrote his first book, ANDROMEDA STRAIN. That’s a classic to me, and so I think, again, using their medical background, they were able to fabricate stories that people are interested in, particularly thrillers that aren’t predicated on just someone with a gun shooting somebody and then investigating it. They are much more complicated stories than that. And so that is what I’ve tried to, I see myself in that mold.

Debbi: Very good. What are your techniques for informing people through your fiction without getting too technical?

Michael: Again, a very good question. I practiced medicine for 30 years as a surgeon. I had to inform people of very technical problems, but put it in words and phrases and terminology that they could grasp and understand. So I think I’ve had a breadth of experience in making that translation. And so in the books, of course, I talk about the lasers and I talk about bleeding management. In many ways, the complicated problems that I filter down and take my time in making an explanation that I feel anyone with a moderate amount of interest would understand. If you look at Tom Clancy’s books, his stories, he would spend pages talking about the details of the bolt connected to the screw, connected to the door in infinite detail. I am not that detailed because I think in some ways – not to dismiss his writing, which is brilliant – but in some ways, you almost lose your focus. So I have to keep the reader’s focus, but give them information to help them with the next step in the story.

Debbi: Exactly. Kind of giving them context for understanding the whole thing.

Michael: It’s context, but it also can be used as a teaser, because you bring up a situation and then they have to wonder where does this come into play.

Debbi: Yeah. Yeah.

Michael: Can’t lay it all out in front of the reader. They would get bored.

Debbi: That would get boring, yes. This isn’t a textbook, it’s fiction.

Michael: It’s fiction, and part of fiction that makes it interesting is that the reader is trying to figure things out as they’re going through, without being told what is going to happen.

Debbi: Yes. Yes, indeed. That’s very good. What do you find is the best way to establish a readership? How have you reached out to readers?

Michael: It’s hard. It’s difficult. I’m finding that people are more engaged in watching with streaming today than they are the effort to sit down and read. I think a lot of that evolved from the Covid issue, where people were not about milling with people. They were by themselves, and what do you do? You want entertainment, so you watch, less read. But I try to stimulate the reading by trying to get the word out on the various social media, shows such as this, radio, everything I can to get the word out. And I do think it does become a bit of a domino [effect], that once you get that ball going, more will follow.

Debbi: Yes. Yes. I agree. I mean, especially if you can reach the people who are really, really interested in your particular subject, they will want to talk about your book online and tell people about it.

Michael: Agreed. I think everyone has an issue or has an experience in the healthcare environment. We’ve all been patients. We’ve all had complaints or problems or frightening events that either did or could have happened to ourselves or someone we know. And so, just that vulnerability, it isn’t something that happens to somebody else. You know, I can read a thriller written about a spy. That’s not my life. But I could have consequences to my just being in my everyday world and then get sucked into the vortex of bad things that can happen as I’m going through surgery or in the hospital environment, drugs, et cetera. So these are real things that I think all of us are aware could happen to me.

Debbi: Yes.

Michael: And that’s what makes it real for them, even though it’s fictionalized.

Debbi: It does. It makes it very concrete and gripping in that way because you know, oh, this could be me.

Michael: Could be me.

Debbi: Yeah, but for the grace of God.

Michael: Right, right.

Debbi: What advice would you give to anyone interested in having a writing career?

Michael: They have to be dedicated. It is a very difficult thing to do. It takes an enormous amount of time and energy. It’s also something that is very … It’s very solitary in its performance. You have to be committed. I’ve met many people who say, oh, I’m going to write a book. Well, go at it. Be prepared to spend a lot of time by yourself. Be prepared that it is arduous. It is difficult. It’s not going to happen overnight. All my books take, for me, about a year and a half to write. They don’t come out easily. And so you have to realize it’s a marathon. It’s not a sprint, and you can’t force it.

Debbi: So true.

Michael: You just can’t force it. I teach at the University of Illinois in designing and developing surgical instruments, and I think we spend more time in instructing students on problem identification than we do on solutions. If you understand the problem, oftentimes the solution will be much more easily obtainable. I think if you’re going to write a book, you have to think, think, think, think about what you’re writing, why you’re writing, who your audience is, where you want to go before you just start getting in and writing. Now, that doesn’t imply that you have to spend forever outlining things. I don’t. I don’t outline at all, but I think about it a great deal before I even begin writing.

Debbi: Yes. That’s a good way to approach it. Even if you don’t outline, just think about how you would like the story to go.

Michael: You have to. The problem identification, understanding and ideating around the problem becomes more critical than the solution. Takes time. And be patient with yourself rather than just delving in and starting to write in different directions.

Debbi: Good advice. Good advice. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Michael: No, I think these are fun books. They are interesting books. They are thought provoking books. I think as much as there is – yes, there is murder, there is intrigue, there is mystery in all of them – at the end of the day, I wanted readers to connect with them and think about, again, our health world, our healthcare environment, and the vulnerabilities that we have in it, and hopefully shed some light on the problems I think that are in that environment. So there is an underlying purpose to the books other than just to entertain.

Debbi: I think that’s wonderful. That’s fantastic. And I want to thank you so much for being with us today, Michael. I really appreciate your time.

Michael: Thank you so much.

Debbi: It’s my pleasure. So on that note, I will just say, check out Michael J. Young, M.D’s. thrillers. They sound fantastic. And you can enter his giveaway. I will put a link in the notes where you can find the giveaway link. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a review or becoming a supporter on Patreon. I post all sorts of bonus content there for Patreon supporters. In any case, thank you so much for tuning in to watch or listen, depending on what platform you’re on. Our next guest will be Michele Scott. Oh, the temptation to make an Office joke here, Okay. I won’t go there. I will not say anything about Michael Scott. Oh, I just did. Oh, sorry. Okay. Next time. Michele Scott, not Michael. Steve Carell’s not going to be on. And in the meantime, take care and happy reading.

*****

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This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Phil M. Williams.

If you like thrillers, you’ll want to check this out.

And don’t forget to check out his giveaway here!

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

We also have a shop now. Check it out!

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

The transcript can be downloaded here.

Debbi: Hi everyone! This week we have with us the author of 27 books, primarily thrillers. His stories tend to explore modern dilemmas and controversies which pit powerful villains against average citizens. He’s giving away an audio version of one of them, NO GOOD DEED. It’s my pleasure to introduce my guest, Phil M. Williams. Hi, Phil. How are you doing today?

Phil: Very good, Debbi. Thank you so much for having me on!

Debbi: It’s my pleasure, believe me. I noticed that most of your books are thrillers. I also noticed that you do have at least one series, the 2050 series.

Phil: That’s correct.

Debbi: What prompted you to write this series?

Phil: I think I was interested in – in thinking about what would happen in my lifetime. Right? I mean, I’m 48 years old, so I’m hoping I get another 25 years at least. So I was thinking, okay, well, I wonder what the world would look like. I don’t know. 2050 is a good, seemed like a good round number. And I see a lot of the – I’m interested in history. I’m interested in some politics. And to me it was just sort of an extension of.

Now it’s a very exaggerated version of what’s maybe happening in the world today, but it’s sort of taking the extreme versions of totalitarianism and projecting it on the United States and seeing what life would be like for. And in the series, there’s four main characters. And so I wanted to see, wanted to explore what life would be like for the one character as a farmer. He’s an average guy that’s struggling, as a lot of our farmers are today, and struggling to make ends meet.

And then you have the congresswoman who’s sort of a budding communist congresswoman who eventually rises to power. And then you have the banker, who sort of comes from a very shadowy family where they control a lot of the economics behind the scenes. So you get a chance as the reader to kind of, to see that.

And then you have just this regular woman who’s sort of, who’s a nurse, and she and the farmer end up. They end up, they end up crossing paths, but they kind of show that … those two characters show the every man and every woman perspective of what life is like in this dystopian future, whereas, and then the other side of the coin, you have the corporate power banker, and then you have the governmental power person that ends up being the president. They show you the power side of the dynamics, which I think is really interesting for the readers.

And you can see, as the series goes on, you can see how the plots wrap around each other and how the characters sort of interact with each other. And in the beginning, you don’t always see how it all is going to connect, but it all kind of sort of weaves together, which I think was just unbelievably complex to do.

The plot outline was – Yeah, the plot outline was over 100,000 words. I think it was, like, 130,000 words just for the plot outline. And I put a – put a lot. I spent over a year just working on the five book plot outline before I even wrote a single sentence of the series.

Debbi: Oh, my goodness!

Phil: Yeah.

Debbi: I’m always in awe of people who can do that. Write out, like, entire plot developments in an outline and then turn it into a book.

Phil: Yeah, I’m definitely a plotter. And if you’re not a plotter, I don’t know, Debbi, if you’re a plotter.

Debbi: I am, actually.

Phil: Okay.

Debbi: I’m very much a plotter, but I do like to kind of give myself this wiggle room to go off on other things. Yeah.

Phil: Yeah. I do the same thing. I mean, I think, like, I’ll come up with a very detailed plot outline, but a lot of times when I’m writing it, I’ll come with, something new will come up, and it’s like, oh, that changes my outline. So then I got to go through the whole plot outline and make some minor changes here and there to make it to sort of fit the new direction.

But, yeah, I try to at least maintain some flexibility, not be so rigid on the plot outline, but. But I’m probably closer to rigid than, I’m on the opposite spectrum as, like, say, Stephen King, who just, you know, of course, he’s the pantser. Right? That’s the example everybody gives, I guess.

Debbi: Yeah. I mean, I’m amazed when people can do that, too. I’m just like, you know, no, I have to have some idea of where I’m going. I need a little roadmap of some sort.

Phil: Yeah, I agree with you. I’m the same way.

Debbi: So you’ve written a lot more standalones, though. What is it that draws you toward writing standalones?

Phil: That’s a good question. You know, it’s funny because I don’t know many, many indie authors that are doing well that write standalones. It’s just, it’s not, I know it’s a – it’s a terrible business choice, but I personally enjoy reading standalones and I, I think that’s probably why I like writing them. But I think it’s, when you’re writing a long series, I think it gets, to me, it gets repetitive, and I like the idea of a completely different – I like the idea of telling a complete story in a single book as best as I possibly can.

And then once I feel like I’ve exhausted it, I feel like if I were to try to write another one, it’s just not going to, it’s just the, it’s always, the sequels always pale in comparison to the original, you know, and that’s kind of the way I view my standalones. It’s like, well, I put everything into that story and once it’s over, I got nothing left to say.

Debbi: You know, I think that’s great, actually. I think the fact that you focus so much on the quality of the story rather than worrying about, oh, I have to write, you know, three or four novels. Put them all out, you know, this year. I mean…

Phil: My bank account doesn’t like it, but….

Debbi: Well, I get that. Believe me, I get it. Yeah. But I think – I think quality pays off in the end, when you come right down to it.

Phil: Yeah, I agree.

Debbi: How would you describe your writing to someone who is interested in buying your books, but isn’t familiar with your writing?

Phil: I would say just looking at what the reviews tend to say, because I think my opinions on these things are always wrong. Even my opinions on my own work, as often if I’m, if I’m talking to a reader, you know, it’s, it’s, I think that the reader’s opinions are probably more going to be correct.

And they tend to write like, if you look through my reviews, you’ll notice a lot of people will say they can read them very quickly, they’re page turners, that they’re, and I – and I purposely don’t write in particularly flowery language or, um, particularly complex. And now a lot of the plots can be complex, but I want the average person to pick this up and feel like it’s entertainment, not that it’s drudgery.

And so I’ve tried to write it in such a way. Plus, I don’t, it’s partly me, too, is I don’t like to read books there. I feel like it’s drudgery where the – where the author is, you know, so smart that I can’t understand half the words in there. But, so I would say, yeah, they would probably say that they’re – they’re page turners, that they’re – that they’re going to be, there’s going to be twists and turns and there’s going to be characters that you love that might get killed off, that you just don’t know what’s going to happen next. That’s right.

Debbi: Wow! Well, you make it sound incredibly intriguing. And I have to tell you, I agree with you on the flowery language. I’m with Elmore Leonard. Skip, you know, leave out the parts, people skip.

Phil: Yeah, that’s true. That’s exactly right.

Debbi: Amen.

Phil: That’s a great quote. I love that quote.

Debbi: Yeah. I love Elmore Leonard. I mean, the guy was, was awesome. What are you working on now?

Phil: I’m working on a book now. The title is a working title, so it may not end up being the title, but it’s, it’s called WHAT HAPPENED IN THE WOODS. And it’s about a – it’s about a young woman who is from the trailer park. She’s grown up hard and she’s works at a fast food place and she’s, a guy comes in and she sort of had, she’s had a rough go lately and she’s – and she laments to herself how people come in, you know, those little plastic boxes where people put cash in for, like, I don’t know, Ronald McDonald House or something. Right? For charity. And they put these in the fast food places.

And she’s lamenting in her mind that, you know, fast food workers are the only ones who don’t get tips. Right? And all the other food places, you know, most people, you know, you get tips. So she’s sort of angry about this and she’s thinking about how, and somebody puts some money in the little plastic thing and they kind of look at her for some sort of acknowledgement of their heroism, for putting this money that she’s not getting. Right?

And she so just gives them kind of like the smile that doesn’t mean anything. It doesn’t go to her eyes. Right? And then she, and then another guy comes in, puts a large amount, like a five or ten, and the little end of it sticking out. Right?

And so she ends up stealing it and gets caught and gets fired. So she really kind of spirals down, and then she ends up running into this guy who is – Claims to be this model scout. And she’s very – She’s very skeptical, but she’s desperate. And she eventually agrees to this $500 modeling gig for the day. Guy takes her out to the woods, and everything seems fine. It all seems in the up and up. He’s a, you know, they do pictures. It’s not, it’s all above board. That’s, you know, clothes on, the whole thing.

And then – and then – and then the guy, they do some pictures at this waterfall, and then they see somebody, or she thinks she sees somebody, and he goes to check it out, and then he never comes back.

And then she’s – And then all of a sudden, she’s being chased and basically, she’s in a situation where she’s fighting for her life, and at the end, they catch her and do terrible things to her. And then she wakes up in the same room every morning to do it all over again, and she just has no idea what’s happening to her. And that – So it’s a horror. It’s a horror story, and it’s a story about. And it turns out that she has some unique skills, given in the way she grew up. And basically, this group of men took the wrong person for once. And so that’s kind of how the story kicks off.

Debbi: That’s interesting! So sort of like a woman in jeopardy but not a victim.

Phil: Definitely not. I mean, she’s a victim. Obviously. She’s outnumbered, but not a…

Debbi: A helpless victim.

Phil: That’s for sure. I guess probably she’s a survivor, right?

Debbi: Survivor, yeah.

Phil: Yeah, she’s definitely a survivor. And she’s somebody who’s – She’s a small person. She’s petite. You know, she’s not anything. And I don’t like writing about, like, you know, special agents that can beat up anybody. That’s not interesting to me.

To me, what’s interesting is, like, okay, let’s take this young girl who has nothing, grew up in poverty, is a small person, put her in the woods with these big men that are used to doing these terrible things to women and see how she would get herself out of this. And it turns out she’s got a very interesting background.

And the story is being told in the before time and the after time because in the before time she’s in a situation where her mother goes to prison for drugs, and then she ends up with her a strange father who she hasn’t seen since she was very little. And he’s got his own issues, but he’s a somebody who’s just retired from the military and has some very special skills, but also isn’t quite right mentally.

And so he sort of puts her through all these weird, weird trials out in the woods where she vowed after these things that happened when she was younger that she would never go back to the woods. And here she finds herself back in the woods.

But a lot of these – a lot of these lessons, which she thought were the most horrible things that she had ever learned when she was a child, she’s finding them quite useful in the now time. So, anyway, yeah, so I’m excited about it. I’m looking forward to finishing it. And the first draft is all done. It’s with my editor now, but hopefully it’ll be out sometime in the winter.

Debbi: That’s great. Good to hear. How much research do you do for your novels?

Phil: It really depends on what I’m writing about, but I do tend to do a fair amount of research because I think it is really important. You probably agree it’s really important that we get things right, and obviously, we don’t know everything as writers. There’s so many things I’m writing about. Like, if I’m writing about prison, for example, I’ve got my novel REDEMPTION went heavy into prison, and I didn’t really know much about prison. You know, I’ve thankfully never been there, but my brother used to work there, so I interviewed him, you know, on all these different, like, little details about how it was.

And then I did a tremendous amount of reading about firsthand prisoner accounts and to get a feel for what it was like. And that’s essentially, I’ll come up with a storyline for what I want to write about, and then as I’m going, I’ll start doing the research, and I’ll find that really changes the plot because as I learn about these different things that, you know, you feel, you figure out, oh, that would never work because they would never do it like that because that’s not what, you know, a plumber would do or that’s not what, you know, whatever profession they are would do.

Debbi: Yeah, boy, I know where you’re coming from there, because I’m writing about a female Marine now, a veteran. I’ve never been in the military. What do I know? Right?

Phil: Yeah. Right.

Debbi: I start reading everything I can written by female veterans.

Phil: That’s great!

Debbi: I’m just like, whoa. Getting into their heads, and it’s like, whoa. Oh. So that’s how they think. Okay. They would do this in that situation. Oh, my.

Phil: That’s the beauty of what we do. I think, though, is that we can, because there’s no two people’s experiences in life are the same. Like, nobody. Not even – Not even twins.

Debbi: Exactly.

Phil: And so we have the opportunity to empathize with other people’s situations and then put that on the page in a way that’s – And I think the more we get it right, and then the more details and the closer it is to reality, the more I think, the more justice we, we do to those people in similar situations who can read that and look at it and say, hey, that, that reminds me of me. They’re talking about me. You know, they’re – they’re identifying with those characters and those feelings.

Debbi: Exactly.

Phil: I think that’s a wonderful thing about fiction writing, is that we, in a sense, can make the – Can make the world a more empathetic place, because everybody who reads these books can learn about what it’s like to be somebody other than themselves. And they can see all the parallels. Right?

I had this conversation with my wife the other day. I said, you know, I’ve heard there’s been some talk of, like, you can’t write. Like, for example, I’m a man. I can’t write. I shouldn’t be writing a first person as a woman, you know, or I shouldn’t be writing somebody who’s a different race or a different whatever, a different sexual orientation.

But I told my wife, I was like, look, I’m an empathetic person like everybody else. I know what it’s like to feel lost – to feel left out, to feel alone, to feel ugly, to feel stupid, to feel happy, to feel all the different things like that. These are things we all have in common. And I think, as writers, we definitely have the ability to figure out how somebody else in a completely different background than us might feel in that same situation. And I think that’s one of the beautiful things I love about writing fiction anyway.

Debbi: I agree with you completely. I mean, the first screenplay I ever wrote was with a male protagonist. Had a male protagonist. And, well, that’s all I’ll say. I mean, it’s like, you can write whoever you want to write as long as you make it true to that kind of person, you know? Do your research, talk to people?

Phil: Absolutely.

Debbi: Yeah. So what do you find is the best way to build a readership?

Phil: I think that if you’re thinking strategy-wise, I mean, for people that might be listening, that are writers, I mean, I think it helps to stick in one genre. I’ve not done that. I mean, I’ve written, I think, in seven or eight different genres, and I think that helps me as a writer overall. But I don’t think it’s a good way to build a readership because not everybody reads the same type of things. Or, you know, like, my thriller readers are not necessarily going to be my literary fiction readers or my nonfiction readers. And it’s very hard to kind of build a good readership if you’re writing in different places.

So the smart thing, the smart play, I think, is to write in one genre, although I’ve, like I said, I’ve broken that rule, but, and then I think, obviously, what we talked about earlier is quality. I think that’s the, more than anything else, if you’re writing great stories that people resonate with and love, I can’t think of a better way to build a readership.

But, of course, you’ve got to have the marketing piece, so you have to be able to get people to even read it to begin with. I mean, even giving away books, which used to be much more effective than it is today, most people have, I’ve talked to a lot of readers. They have tens of thousands of books on their Kindle, and they’ve told me, they’re like, if I read nonstop from now until the time I die, I wouldn’t even read 10% of what’s on my Kindle.

Debbi: That’s right. That’s exactly right. That is the nature of the problem right there.

Phil: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, as much as I’m – I think there’s still a time and a place to do free books here and there, it’s becoming less and less effective. And ideally, it’s not really about the money or it’s not about $0.99 or free or full price at $4.99 or whatever you want to sell your books for. It’s about getting people to actually read them, you know?

And to be honest with you, I think you would probably do better paying people a dollar to read every one of your books than you would giving them away for free and have – and have – and have a tiny fraction of those people read them just because those people that actually read them, if their books were good, they’d probably go on to buy more.

Debbi: Yeah. Yeah.

Phil: To be honest with you, I’d do that. Anybody wants to read my books, you know, and write a review. You can’t do that —

Debbi: I’ll give you a dollar.

Phil: Yeah. You don’t have to write a review, just read them. Here’s a dollar. But, yeah, I think that in the long run, you’d probably be better with that than just giving them out. Because I think it’s something like a very, like 10% or less actually read the free books that they get a – Yeah, it’s very low.

Debbi: I’m not surprised. I’m not at all surprised, actually. And it’s – That’s the big, big hurdle now, really, just to have your stuff read.

Phil: Yeah, it is. There’s just so much.

Debbi: It’s too available. Everything’s too available.

Phil: Yeah, you’re right. There’s a sea of books out there. Just a sea of them. And how do you, you know, find a way to stand out and it’s. It’s not an easy answer, for sure.

Debbi: Not at all. No. What are you reading these days?

Phil: I’m reading a….

Debbi: What’s on your book pile…

Phil: Let’s see. I’ve got. I’m actually reading OJ IS INNOCENT AND I CAN PROVE IT. I don’t know if you heard that.

Debbi: Yeah, I’m looking forward to reading that, actually.

Phil: It’s written by William Dear, who’s a private investigator from Texas. It’s very, very interesting. And I’m reading that partly because I’ve got a YouTube channel called Thriller Vault, where I do a lot of – I tell a lot of stories. I’m basically telling stories, but they’re mostly true stories.

So, for example, like, I did a story on OJ. He wrote a book. It was through a ghostwriter a while back called If I Did It. I did a really weird book. So I actually wrote a story on that where I’m OJ and I’m just telling the story as if I’m OJ from my perspective, you know, based on the book, you know? And so I did.

And so then I got through that. I kind of got interested in, like, oh, well, I came across the William Dear books. I started reading that. And to be honest with you, that’s made me think that it possibly might have been his son and not him, who actually committed the murders, which is wild, because I was firmly in the camp that he’s probably guilty. Like most people, by the numbers, statistically speaking, most people think that he’s guilty. But after reading the William Dear book, I’m starting to really think that it was likely his son Jason that was actually the murderer.

Debbi: Well, it’s a very interesting case.

Phil: It’s really interesting, but…

Debbi: Because as a lawyer, it kind of offends me when people are suspected of something and then people start jumping to conclusions, that that means they’re guilty of something.

Phil: Yeah.

Debbi: So to hear that this stuff is coming out is very interesting to me.

Phil: Yeah.

Debbi: What advice would you give to anyone who would like to write for a living?

Phil: I would say that’s a good question. I mean, it’s, things have really, things are really moved quickly from when … things are really different from when I started. And they’re… I don’t know what my advice would be. Let me think about this for a sec. I would say…. I would say…. I would say, go into it with…..

I would say, you want to be hopeful because, like, for me, I was very naive when I started, and I was very, like, hopeful that. And I think everybody who’s starting out, they’re like, oh, I’m going to write the greatest novel ever, and it’s going to be an instant bestseller. And, you know, we have these – we have these crazy ideas early on. But I think that as much as it’s embarrassing for me to admit that that’s kind of how I felt when I was first starting out, I think it was necessary to have that naivete because you don’t realize how hard it is.

And I think that if I didn’t have that hope in the beginning, I probably wouldn’t have, like, if you told me, hey, Phil, you’re not going to make any money till you write at least ten books. I don’t know. I mean, that’s a daunting past for somebody who’s never written a novel. So me going into it, very naive, is like, oh, well, this first book didn’t work out, but that was pretty fun, and I did a pretty good job. And we try another one, and then you’re like, oh, this one’s going to work out. Okay, well, maybe not. So then you’re ten books in. You’re like, okay, well, I’m starting to see some progress, but had I gone into it with realizing how daunting the task is.

So I think – I think I would recommend go into it with some hope and try to have fun with it. And if it’s something you enjoy doing, I think it’s something you should pursue. But if it’s something you don’t like, and hate. And you’re just doing this because, you know, you think this is some path to. I can’t imagine anybody thinks that, thinks that this is a path to wealth because I don’t think it is.

Debbi: It’s not.

Phil: I mean, I guess it could be for some people, but it’s more of a – it’s more of a labor of love, I think, than that. And, but if you, I think if you go into it with that and then whatever upside you get financially is great, but I wouldn’t go into it with, I’m going to be a millionaire author or something like that. I mean, it’s certainly possible, but I don’t think that. I don’t think – if money is your goal, I don’t think writing is probably the right profession for you, if money is your top goal. Now we all have to make money and live, of course. But anyway, that’s probably where I would.

Debbi: Yeah. Yeah. It really is not a quick path to riches at all.

Phil: No.

Debbi: And the people who make the big money are outliers.

Phil: For sure.

Debbi: It happens. But …..

Phil: Yeah, a lot of them are very old at this point. Like they’ve been around for a very long time.

Debbi: Right. They have time they have built up.

Phil: And the trad publishers are basically holding on to their names with a death grip. Even when they die. They’re hiring new authors to write their, under their name.

Debbi: They’ve created brands.

Phil: So if you’re a new person trying. Yes, if you’re a new person trying to break into the traditional publishing game, good luck with that. It’s not the way it used to be, where there were some chances. It’s much more difficult now.

Debbi: It’s very hard. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Phil: No, that’s it. Just thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it.

Debbi: Well, it was my pleasure, believe me. And thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate the chance to talk to you about all of this stuff because it’s very interesting.

Phil: Oh, thank you! One thing I would want to mention, if anybody who wants the audiobook, if they just email me, I think the email is in the show notes and they can just email me and ask. And as long as they have audible for the US or the UK, I can send them the audio books, the codes for it, and all they have to do is have the app. So they have to be on Audible to get it. But it’s totally free.

Debbi: Fantastic!

Phil: Anybody who emails me, I’ll be happy to send them a audiobook. That’s what my evil plan is. I give you a free audiobook and get you hooked, and then you’ll buy some.

Debbi: Well, that’s a very nice, benign, evil plan, I gotta say. So on that note, thank you so much again, Phil!

And thank you to everyone listening! Thank you for listening or for watching on YouTube, depending on what you’re doing.

And our next guest on the show will be Michael Young. In the meantime, take care and happy reading!

*****

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This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer and entrepreneur Clay Stafford.

Check out the plans for the upcoming Killer Nashville conference!

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

We also have a shop now. Check it out!

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

The transcript can be downloaded here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. Our guest today is a return visitor. Along with being a bestselling and award-winning author, he’s a poet, screenwriter, and playwright. He’s also founder and CEO of Killer Nashville. It’s my pleasure to have with me again as this week’s guest. Clay Stafford. Hi, Clay. How are you doing?

Clay: Hi, Debbi. Doing well. Absolutely wonderful.

Debbi: Wonderful. You’re looking good there.

Clay: Well, thank you.

Debbi: Looking good. It’s always nice to know. The farther we get along in age, it’s nice to know you’re still looking good at least. Shall we talk about what’s coming up at Killer Nashville then?

Clay: So you’re just leaving it wide open then, what’s coming up?

Debbi: Yeah. What’s special coming up, let’s say?

Clay: Well, every year it changes, and this year I truly do think it’s going to be the best one yet so far, and we’re coming up on – what is it – it’s the 18th year or something.

Debbi: 18th or 19th, I was going to say

Clay: Maybe 19th, but we’re getting close to that two decade point. I think the lineup … I’m currently finalizing the schedule – should have it online very quickly, and it’s going to be, I think, a wonderful year.

Debbi: That’s excellent. That’s good to hear. I happened to notice that one of your offerings was a mock crime scene, which I thought was kind of cool. Is that like a display, or do people get to interact with it?

Clay: We actually used to do that all the time, and then Dan Royce, who was the assistant director of the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, always put that on. This last year and the year before, he did not do it just because I think he’d been doing it for 15 whatever years and decided to take a break. But he has told me that he is coming back with another crime scene. It’s basically an interactive crime scene where people try to actually solve the crime, and it looks like it’s the same training methods that are used with the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation and the FBI and all of the other agencies. Each attendee who wants to try to solve the crime, the winner gets a heavily discounted attendance for next year for Killer Nashville.

But it’s a tricky business and it’s always been a lot of fun. We’ve learned over the years how to be able to handle that, because one year we just set up the crime scene and some attendees at a hotel we were at at the time came by and happened to look in, and it looks very realistic – blood and brain matter and everything all around – and they called 9-1-1. The next thing we know, we have police officers and medical people all showing up, and they’re telling us to get out of the way, and then of course, they’re going over to look at the dummy, and then I guess they kind of feel like maybe a dummy. But we’ve now set it aside so that it’s not right in front of other people who are not—

The hotel we’re using – Embassy Suites in Cool Springs, Franklin – we actually have sold out the whole hotel, so it should be all crime writers who are there, so there should not be any danger of the 9-1-1 team showing up. I’m hoping Dan will come through with us on that. He said he is working on an idea, so hopefully we’ll have that ready to go.

Debbi: Well, that’s very cool. Very interesting story too. I could just imagine what that was like.

Clay: Oh, we’ve had several of those kinds of incidents, but it’s nice that people are conscientious in calling the authorities when they see a problem.

Debbi: Yes. Just out of curiosity, have you ever considered having programming for screenwriters?

Clay: We do offer a session. Now being a screenwriter myself as well as writing in other media, the method of storytelling is pretty, pretty close. But yes, we again have a session on screenwriting this year. The Tennessee Screenwriters’ Association is actually being a sponsor of that, and so we’ve got professional screenwriters who have some pretty good Hollywood credits who are going to be giving presentations on screenwriting this year.

Debbi: That’s very cool.

Clay: What we usually do is try to have something on all of the media we use. Sometimes we even have things on poetry in the tradition of Poe and Stephen King and other people who write poetry. I don’t know if you know Stephen King wrote poetry, but he does write poetry, and so we offer various mediums from playwriting to screenwriting to poetry. We’re doing several panels on nonfiction this year and presentations as well as writing true crime. Really focusing a good deal on true crime this year because it seems to be something that a lot of people are interested in. I take a lot of polls of the people on the mailing list of what do you want this year? Because really I’m trying to create a conference that’s for the people who are coming, and true crime and memoir is – we’re having something on memoir as well – and so all those together, we pretty much cover the gamut of the mediums that are available. But like I said, the storytelling is pretty much the same. It’s the formatting and what you can offer in screenwriting as you know. For example, you know it’s just a visual and audio thing. You can’t get inside the character’s head. If you do, you’re still doing visual and audio, and so it’s a different writing than writing for a novel, and we discuss all of that.

Debbi: For sure. You’re also publisher and editor-in-chief of Killer Nashville Magazine.

Clay: Yes. Very proud of that magazine and the work that everybody has done with it.

Debbi: I was going to say, how did you get started with the magazine?

Clay: You know, it was a way to continue to offer … As we’ve talked before on the show, I’ve had a pretty good career and felt it was time. Killer Nashville is my version of giving back to the community, and everybody who comes and presents is giving back to the community. The headliners and our guests of honor and all of the other people who come all come with a spirit of giving back, and so you have a meeting, a gathering that’s a once a year thing, and there’s no way to continue the education. So I decided what we need is a magazine, but we’ll do an online magazine and we’ll make it free, and it’s absolutely free to everybody. All you have to do is go to KillerNashville.com  and sign up for the free magazine.

You get it, I assume, and I would say that the quality of the craft articles and also the other how-to things are on equal par with any other magazine that you could get a subscription to and have to pay for it. So it’s absolutely free and it comes to your inbox. So I encourage everybody to sign up for that if they want to. And then also this past year, I really wanted to give writers more of an opportunity to be able to publish their own works, and so it has moved slightly. It’s a craft magazine, but it’s also now a literary magazine because we’re publishing creative non-fiction, poetry, short stories, excerpts from books, different things, reviews of new books that are coming out, and if anyone wants to volunteer, we’d love to have volunteers. Just go to the KillerNashville.com site and you can volunteer, but also if you want to submit some of your writing, we would love to have people’s submissions, because we’re always looking to discover the next great voice.

Debbi: Very cool. I was going to ask about submissions, so I’m glad you brought that up.

Clay: Yeah, it’s open and there’s no fees. We really try to make sure of that. You know, having gone full circle in this business myself, the people who really need to get that foot in the door are not always the ones that can afford it. They can’t always afford to come to the conference so we have the magazine for free so that you can get some information there. They can’t always afford to enter contests, so our submission process is free. So again, it’s just a labor of love that we’re trying to help writers of all kinds who are out there to find publication and also knowledge.

Debbi: Yes, yes. That’s great. It’s wonderful that you’re doing that. One thing I was going to bring up is, it seems like it’s harder than ever for authors to let’s say, be visible these days with the sheer plethora of books that’s coming out, and things like … well, I guess really to a certain extent, writers are very introverted usually, and have a hard time with the idea of marketing. They think marketing, they think something’s sleazy. What are your thoughts on the best way to build a fan base?

Clay: I personally think it’s through just getting people to know you, and you’ve got to have these days as you pointed out, there are many, many authors out there now, and you have to have some sort of platform in order to be able to set yourself up higher so your head is sticking above the crowd, and people are able to see that. You can do that through a bunch of numerous ways. You can do it through teaching, you can do it through interacting on social media, if you’re really good with that. You could do it just however it is that you reach out to other people. But the important thing that I think, and you know that I used to own a PR and marketing firm as well, and so the thing that I really think is most important is to just develop true, honest, sincere relationships with other people , and that builds.

The best thing we have tried over the years, and I’ve been in this business for decades – marketing and stuff – and over the years, you can take pay for ads, you can do all these other things, and the best thing you can do is just get word of mouth. It’s absolutely the best seller that you get. So write the best book that you can, and then just reach out to each individual person that you come along with, and just start building that base, and then continually put out new works so that you can maintain the interest of that base, and it sounds very simple. You go bathe three times in the river Jordan or whatever, and your leprosy will go away. It seems like a very simple thing to do. It is a simple thing to do, but it’s also something that has to be a consistent thing, and I really do think it’s the best way to build a platform.

Debbi: Yes. Consistency and doing something that works for you is another important part, I think.

Clay: Well, you can’t change your personality. We all have different things that we’re good at. I do fine talking so I do a lot of presentations such as this, but some people are not comfortable talking, but at the same time, they’re more comfortable doing blogs. And by the way, if I can offer a self-serving plug here, I do a blog as well, and offer my insights, my personal insights, and from my decades of experience working on both sides of the camera, on both sides of the publishing industry, on both sides of the stage, and share that every week with people who are interested. So if anybody wants to sign up for that free newsletter, go to claystafford.com and just sign up and see if it’s something that’s of interest to you.

Debbi: Very good. Very good.

Clay: It all comes down to helping. I think the best thing that has ever happened for me in terms of marketing is just helping other people, and I think that people respond positively too, if you’re very sincere about however you are reaching out to other people, and if it’s just helping people enjoy life, helping people live life, whatever your gift is, then sharing that I think is really that best way to build that platform.

Debbi: That’s good to hear. I mean, you don’t have to be a particular way to be effective. You just have to kind of be your best self.

Clay: Be your true self.

Debbi: Your true self. Yes.

Clay: Be your true self and share your true self with others, and I think you’ll be surprised at the amount of love that comes back to you.

Debbi: I love that philosophy. It’s great. I mean, I agree with you completely. So what do you like on TV these days?

Clay: I am waiting two years or however long it is for Stranger Things to come back again.

Debbi: Oh my gosh. Anything else come to mind?

Clay: I spend so much time skimming television and reading and stuff. I’m just not a loyal person to anything because I’m just absorbing what’s going on around me, and there’s so many things because I have book reviews that I have to do – or let me rephrase that – that I get to do.

Debbi: That you get to do, I know.

Clay: I don’t have to do them, but I get to do them, and so I constantly have this… you know how you have this “want-to read” stack of books that are there.

Debbi: Oh yeah!

Clay: I’ve got one of those that you must read because there is a deadline of an interview that’s coming up with this, or a release of a review. So my reading and my viewing because I review films and TV shows and things as well, and mine is usually based on it, unfortunately. I came into the business because I love the business, and now the business has taken hold of me so I’m at the mercy of the business, and so it’s a completely different thing.

Debbi: I get it. I get it. Oh my gosh.

Clay: It’s completely delightful. But the fun thing is you just get to, when you have deadlines set, if you got a job that you have to read a book and then tell people what you think about it, or watch a TV show and tell people what you think about it, you live a rough life, right?

Debbi: Exactly.

Clay: But having to do that, you get to experience such an eclectic mix of authors from different styles, and I have reviewed a lot of things. I reviewed one version of The Bible that came out. I think it was the NIV version if I’m not mistaken. The editor gave it to me. A Closer Look was the magazine, and they gave me the thing. They said, would you review this new version of the Bible? And so I was like yeah, and then I made a joke, like but what if I don’t like it and the author gets angry?

Debbi: Oh boy.

Clay: So if you go to my website and look at the things that I’ve reviewed and stuff, it’s an eclectic mix. Everything from horror to romance to thriller, Southern Gothic, steampunk. It runs a gamut, but it’s a very exciting thing, and I have really an eclectic mix. And you know me – I have an attention span about this long. So if I read one book then I’m ready for a completely different kind of book, but it’s because that’s the way my mind works.

Debbi: Yeah, I can understand. I mean, I’m interested in a lot of things, though I tend to focus on one thing at a time. Let’s see. What are you reading that you’re really enjoying these days?

Clay: Once again …

Debbi: Oh dear!

Clay: Yes, it’s pretty much the same thing. I don’t have the copies of the books here, but I’ll tell you. The best thing to do is to look at the Killer Nashville Magazine and you’ll see the people I’m interviewing, because I always do the cover story on the Killer Nashville Magazine. Then also I have a monthly column for Writer’s Digest and I interview authors there, and I always read their books. So if you want to know what I’m reading, just take a peek at Writer’s Digest or Killer National Magazine or some of the other reviews. I do reviews via the Clay Stafford newsletter if you want to take a look at those. So you’ll see an eclectic mix on all of those.

Debbi: That’s very cool. I’ll have to look for your reviews. That’s great. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Clay: No, just whatever you wish to discuss.

Debbi: Well, I’ve learned a lot just in talking to you.

Clay: Time has flown by, hasn’t it?

Debbi: Just in 20 minutes I’ve learned so much about what you’re doing at Killer Nashville, which sounds so cool, and what you’re reading or trying to read or reviewing.

Clay: I just came back from a European tour and it was fabulous. I went with one objective and I came back with four objectives, which are some wonderful things that I’m hoping to do in Europe as well. I can’t really disclose what those are, but that’s my current project is looking into 2025 on some European projects that the groundwork, the foundation laid for these past three weeks in Europe.

Debbi: That’s fantastic. That’s wonderful. Great. Well, I want to thank you so much.

Clay: Absolutely.

Debbi: Was there something you wanted to say?

Clay: No, no. Thank you for having me on your show. It’s always a pleasure to be back and thanks for all you do for writers as well.

Debbi: Oh, well, you’re welcome, and I enjoy doing it. It’s the variety, you know. I get to meet a lot of people this way,

Clay: Yes, absolutely.

Debbi: So thank you again. I really appreciate your being on, and on that note, thank you to all my listeners for your interest. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave a review. You don’t even have to write it, just throw some stars up there, please. Also check out our Patreon page. We have bonus episodes, as well as other bonus content for supporters, and with that, I will just say our next guest will be Phil M. Williams. Until then, take care and happy reading.

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In this episode, Debbi Mack and F.R. Jameson discuss the Hitchcock film noir, Stage Fright (1950).

Directed by Alfred Hitchcock;