This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with lawyer and crime writer Dan Flanigan.

Dan started off writing poetry. Check out the story of how his writing journey began.

To download a copy of the transcript, just click here.

Debbi: Hi, everyone. My guest today is a lawyer, author, playwright, and poet, who among other things, has taught legal history and jurisprudence and practiced civil rights law, as well as worked in financial services, so he has an impressive resume. His written work includes the Peter O'Keefe hardboiled crime series, which has earned praise and awards. He has also written stage plays and short stories. His novella Dewdrops was adapted from a play. It's my pleasure to have with me a lawyer and acclaimed author, Dan Flanigan. Hi, Dan. How are you doing today?

Dan: Good enough, thank you. As I said, better than I deserve I'm doing.

Debbi: Oh, dear me. Oh, I'd hate to think that. You always wanted to write a novel but ended up going to law school. How did that come about?

Dan: Well, I'm not sure.

Debbi: I know the feeling.

Dan: I wanted to be a writer from the time I was a sophomore in high school, and found many ways to avoid or evade it. When I look back on it, I punished myself a whole lot all those years, and unfortunately punished my wife as well for selling out, not doing what I was supposed to do. But when I look back on it now, I wonder if I really had anything to write and you've lived your whole life. You have had a lot happen to you.

Debbi: There's a lot to be said for waiting before you start writing, because then you have more content to draw from.

Dan: In any event, I never thought it would, but it worked out well.

Debbi: Absolutely. Yeah. What was it that started you? You started with poetry, correct?

Dan: Yes. I had written in sort of spurts occasionally over a long period of time, between my sophomore year in high school and when I really started writing in earnest, and I had a period in the 1980s when I was on kind of a two-year break from practicing law and I wrote several plays. I wrote some poetry, a couple short stories, and I wrote a novel. One thing led to another. For example, I had an agent, I had a publisher for the novel. The publisher went bankrupt, and I had a stage reading of a play in New York. I thought I was going to be on top of the world for about five seconds. Where do you go eventually with any of that? So I decided I'm going to quit punishing myself and have nothing to do with writing.

And about 20 years later, if you got something like that in you, I guess it stays in you. My wife died in 2011, and I thought I'd do a kind of tribute, I guess - she might not think so - to her with a book called Tenebrae, which is a book of poems, mostly focused on her last illness and death. That sort of broke the dam, if you will, and sort of led me back into writing in a very serious way, and I really kept to it since.

Debbi: What inspired you to create Peter O'Keefe, this character? What kind of a person is he and what do you draw on to create stories about him?

Dan: The way I ended up there is odd, but I had no thought of ever writing crime fiction or detective fiction or anything else. I had read some of it over the course of my life, but never was steeped in it in any way, and the first two books, one was poetry and one was a short story collection, Dewdrops that I guess - not to be pretentious - but you might call literary fiction. But then I wanted to write this novel, sort of a fall in reparation sort of thing. I thought I want to make this more interesting than just navel gazing, and so I said, you know, I'm going to try to put it in this sort of private detective format and see how it goes. And that was the book that I wrote, and got accepted by a publisher.

I had no thought of ever writing crime fiction or detective fiction or anything else. I had read some of it over the course of my life,

This week’s guest on the Crime Cafe podcast is historical crime writer Stephen Eoannou.

Check out our discussion about the creator of the Lone Ranger!

Grab a PDF copy of the transcript here!

Debbi: Hi, everyone. My guest today has published two novels with the third coming in May of next year. Along with novels, he has written at least one short screenplay. He lives and works in Buffalo, New York, which also provides the setting and inspiration for his work. It's my pleasure to have with me today, the award-winning author Stephen Eoannou.

Stephen: There you go.

Debbi: Did I get that right?

Stephen: Yes.

Debbi: Awesome. Fantastic. So thank you for being with us today.

Stephen: Thank you for having me.

Debbi: I'm pleased to have you on. I really enjoyed your book Rook, your debut novel. That was a very interesting story. What inspired you to write about this particular man from the FBI's Most Wanted List?

Stephen: Yeah. I had finished my first book Muscle Cars, which is a short story collection, and I was picking around trying to find an idea for the next project, and I can remember it vividly. It was a Sunday morning. I was standing in my kitchen and I was reading the newspaper. It was spread out on the kitchen table, and I saw an article, and the title of the article in the Buffalo News was “The Strange Tale of a Buffalo Bank Robber Turned Writer”, and that immediately caught my eye, thinking this maybe is another career avenue for myself. But I started reading this article about Al Nussbaum. I had never heard of the man before, and by the end of the article, I knew that I wanted to write about him.

I was standing in my kitchen and I was reading the newspaper. It was spread out on the kitchen table, and I saw an article, and the title of the article in the Buffalo News was “The Strange Tale of a Buffalo Bank Robber Turned Writer”

I wasn't sure it was going to be a novel or a short story or what, but I knew I wanted to learn more about this man and write about him. And what fascinated me was not only was he this kind of cerebral bank robber who approached the robberies like chess matches - which he was an avid chess player - and he's quoted as saying that robbing banks is like chess for cash prizes, which I think is a great quote. He became a writer when he was in prison, and he was a penny-a-word guy, Mike Shayne Mystery Magazine, Alfred Hitchcock. He even was writing for Scholastic Books, if anyone's old enough to remember Scholastic Books.

Debbi: Oh, I do

Stephen: Yeah, me too. I still have a few of them. So the man who was doing time in Leavenworth was also writing Scholastic Books. He was just a fascinating character, and he was a Buffalo guy. I had kind of decided after I completed Muscle Cars that really Buffalo, New York was going to kind of be my literary turf I was going to carve out for myself. Kind of what William Kennedy did for Albany and Richard Russo did for upstate New York, the Catskill areas. That's what I was going to do. And so this just kind of fell in my lap and I just kind of really became intrigued with Al and his story.

Debbi: Interesting. Very interesting that you were able to find this in the local paper, right?

Stephen: Well, what it was his daughter, who's just an infant in the novel, she was trying to do a Kickstarter campaign to gather up all her father's short stories and anthologized them, and so the newspaper did a feature on it. And what was really great about this whole experience with Rook is that since the publication, I've become friends with her. She lives about two hours away. She's a retired attorney, not a defense attorney or criminal lawyer. We've had coffee a few times and she's come to a couple of my events when I'm in the Central New York region, telling me some fascinating stories about her dad that I wish I knew while I was working on the manuscript.

Debbi: Interesting. Because this is a fictionalized account of a true story,

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with paleontologist and crime writer Leonard “Kris” Krystalka.

Check out his reading from The Bone Field!

Grab a PDF copy of the transcript here!

Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest today is both a professional paleontologist and a novelist. He writes the Henry Przewalski - is that correct, I hope? Przewalski?

Leonard: Literally, it reads as Przewalski but it's actually a Russian-Polish name, named for the discoverer of Przewalski's horse, that small kind of dwarfish horse that lives wild on the Asian steppes. So it's pronounced in the Russian sense.

Debbi: Got it. All right. I'll try to remember that. It's my pleasure to have him with me today. It's Leonard Krystalka, who goes by Kris. Like Kris Kristofferson, may he rest in peace.

Leonard: May he rest in peace. A terrific person.

Debbi: Indeed. Yes.

Leonard: Yes. Wonderful artist.

Debbi: He was, yes. I want to thank you for being here so much. It's good to have you on. Tell us about Harry Przewalski. I almost screwed that up again. How much did you draw from your own experiences in creating him?

Leonard: A great deal. I named Harry Przewalski as a homage to the study of the life of the past and the study of present biodiversity. So, Przewalski's horse is this miniature horse that roams wild on the steppes of Asia. It almost became extinct by over hunting, and in World War II, the German soldiers ate what is reputed to be some of the last Przewalski's horses in a zoo in Poland. But enough were saved to repopulate the wild steppes of Asia.

Przewalski's horse is this miniature horse that roams wild on the steppes of Asia. It almost became extinct by over hunting, and in World War II, the German soldiers ate what is reputed to be some of the last Przewalski's horses in a zoo in Poland.

Debbi: Interesting. Did you choose that name deliberately?

Leonard: I did. I chose it deliberately, although it's hard to pronounce, and as a homage to the paleontological studies of the evolutionary history of life on Earth, the three billion year history of life on Earth.

Debbi: That is so cool. How many books do you have in the series, and how many do you plan to write? Or do you have a plan for the series?

Leonard: There are four books now in the Harry Przewalski series. There's THE BONE FIELD, DEATH SPOKE, THE CAMEL DRIVER, and the newest one just published this year called NATIVE BLOOD. I have a fifth novel, which is not in that series. It's a historical fiction of a murder that occurred in Lawrence, Kansas in 1871. A doctor accused of murdering his patient because he was having an affair with the patient's wife. The doctor was arrested and the resulting trial was equivalent to … imagine the OJ Simpson trial in 1871 in Kansas. You have sex, you have murder, you have adultery.

It attracted reporters of every single newspaper in the country from San Francisco, from Chicago, from St. Louis, from New York, Washington, Detroit, and so forth. This is 1871 Kansas. It's only six years after the end of the Civil War. So the trial was a national sensation, and one of the Lawrence women becomes the heroine. She talks the editor of one of the Lawrence newspapers into hiring her as the first woman correspondent west of the Mississippi. She covers the trial and solves the murder.

Debbi: Wow.

Leonard: She also fights for women's rights. She fights for suffrage for women and blacks. Yeah, she's quite a woman.

Debbi: And which book is this again?

Leonard: This is called THE BODY ON THE BED. I could hold it up for viewers to see.

Debbi: That's very cool. I noticed that book was outside the series.

Leonard: Yeah, it is. I'm writing the sequel to that now. It's called The Body on the Bricks. She is the heroine of that book as well. But your original question was about the Przewalski series of which there are now four, and yes, there may well be a fifth.

Debbi: Fantastic.

This week's episode of the Crime Cafe features another story from The Adventures of Philip Marlowe.

This episode comes to you ad-free. Relatively. :)

The following is an unedited AI-generated transcript. Does an awesome job, huh? :)

(00:00:12):

Hi, everyone.

(00:00:14):

This is The Crime Café, your podcasting source of great crime suspense and thriller writing.

(00:00:20):

I'm your host, Debbi Mack.

(00:00:22):

Before I bring on my guest,

(00:00:23):

I'll just remind you that The Crime Café has two e-books for sale,

(00:00:28):

the nine-book box set and the short story anthology.

(00:00:31):

You can find the buy links for both on my website, debbiemack.com, under the Crime Café link.

(00:00:38):

If you'd like to

(00:00:39):

You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter.

(00:00:45):

You'll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon,

(00:00:49):

along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

(00:00:53):

Unfortunately, our scheduled guest was unable to make it this week.

(00:00:58):

However,

(00:00:58):

I have instead another episode from the files of Philip Marlowe,

(00:01:02):

Private Eye,

(00:01:04):

Daring Young Dame on the Flying Trapeze.

(00:01:06):

Enjoy!

(00:01:11):

For the safety of your smile, use Pepsodent twice a day, see your dentist twice a year.

(00:01:27):

Lever Brothers Company presents the Pepsodent program,

(00:01:30):

The Adventures of Philip Marlowe,

(00:01:32):

starring Van Heflin.

(00:01:40):

Pepsodent presents Philip Marlowe, Raymond Chandler's famous private detective.

(00:01:45):

You've seen him on the screen in Lady and the Lake,

(00:01:47):

Murder,

(00:01:47):

My Sweet,

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The Brasher Doubloon,

(00:01:49):

and The Big Sleep.

(00:01:50):

Now Pepsodent brings you the adventures of Philip Marlowe on the air and starring

(00:01:55):

MGM's brilliant and dynamic young actor,

(00:01:57):

Van Heflin.

(00:01:59):

Pepsodent

(00:02:15):

There comes a certain time in the year when I don't want to see midget auto races.

(00:02:19):

I just want to see midgets.

(00:02:21):

When I prefer sawdust to stardust, and popcorn to all other kinds of corn available in Hollywood.

(00:02:28):

The circus was moving in on the grounds at Washington Boulevard and Hill Street,

(00:02:32):

and I was turning in my usual fine job as sidewalk supervisor.

(00:02:37):

It was exciting.

(00:02:38):

It brought back all the sounds and sensations and convictions of childhood.

(00:02:43):

And then someone had me firmly by the wrist,

(00:02:45):

and I turned to look into a pair of steady,

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smoky,

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dark eyes that could be dangerous.

(00:02:51):

Excuse me, sir, but you are a private detective?

(00:02:54):

I'm a detective, but I don't get much privacy.

(00:02:57):

Yeah, my name is Ralph Tassinari.

(00:03:00):

Who told you I was a detective?

(00:03:01):

My feet aren't that flat.

(00:03:03):

Do you know a gentleman named Al Sicanolfi?

(00:03:06):

Well, I know an Al Sicanolfi.

(00:03:08):

He pointed you out.

(00:03:09):

He asked me what was the big idea.

(00:03:11):

What was my angle hiring a private detective?

(00:03:13):

He gave me an idea.

(00:03:14):

When has Al Sicanolfi had any ideas to spare?

(00:03:17):

Mr. Marlowe, besides owning one-third of this very fine little circus, I am Tassinari.

(00:03:23):

Of Tassinari, the Swede, and Glorian.

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Trafisto.

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The most brilliant aerial act in the business.

(00:03:29):

I own this circus with Glorian and the Swede.

(00:03:32):

Well, where does Al Sicanolfi fit in here?

(00:03:34):

Now, the Swede gets drunk and gambles fantastic sums of money.

(00:03:38):

This circus is worth a quarter of a million dollars.

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Already,

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Tom Fowler.

Check out our discussion of his Baltimore-based crime fiction.

Click here for a PDF copy of the transcript.

Debbi (00:55): Hi everyone. My guest today is the USA Today bestselling indie author of the John Tyler thrillers and the CT Ferguson crime fiction series. Born in Baltimore, he now lives in the Maryland suburbs of DC, a place that I know well, or at least I used to know it well. It's my pleasure to have with me Tom Fowler. Hey, Tom. How are you doing today?

Tom (01:21): Good, Debbi. Thanks for having me on.

Debbi (01:23): Excellent. My pleasure. I was particularly intrigued by the fact that you are writing hardboiled mysteries that take place in Baltimore. You're originally from Baltimore and you've also written a whole lot of those books. How many books do you have in the CT Ferguson series?

Tom (01:44): Sixteen currently. Just put up the pre-order for number 17. My hope is to have it out a little before Christmas.

Debbi (01:56): Well, I got to tell you, I love a hardboiled mystery, and I love the idea of the setting in Baltimore. How many books do you plan to write for the series? What's your plan for the series in general?

Tom (02:09): Yeah, I don't have any plan to end it. I think it's common in the genre to have these kind of open-ended series, and we look at the Spencer series. Robert B. Parker wrote 40 or 41 before he died, and there's been another 11 or 12, I think since his passing. Ace Atkins wrote the first nine or 10, and now Mike Lupica has taken over. So Jack Reacher was more of a thriller character, I would say, than mystery, but that's a 27 or 28. And again, there's an author transition happening there too. So I think it's very common to see these series just keep going, and as long as people are interested in reading them, I'm certainly interested in writing them. I have a lot of fun with these books.

Debbi (02:56): That's cool. I've noticed they tend to be on the short side. Is that intentional? Is it just the way you write?

Tom (03:04): I guess it's just the way I write. They're usually 70 to 75,000 words. The more recent ones have been closer to 70, so I'd say most mysteries are probably somewhere in the 75 to 80 range. So I hope I'm not writing too short, but it's the right length for the story. I don't want to pad the word count unnecessarily. They're first-person stories, so there's not a lot of side quests, if you will, happening that the other characters are going on, so.

Debbi (03:34): Exactly. Yeah, and personally, I like short reads, so I mean, that just really appeals to me.

Tom (03:41): Yeah.

Debbi (03:44): What prompted you to write that series?

Tom (03:49): A few things. I've mentioned before, I think I have a longer bio that mentions I wrote a "murder mystery" (in air quotes for those who can't see me) when I was about seven years old in which no one actually died, so no murder. And I named the, I guess I can't really call him the killer, but the person who stabbed people, the stabber, like in the first paragraph. So not a mystery either. Oh for two, but it's because I was at my grandparents' house a lot, and they would watch shows like The Rockford Files. This was probably the early eighties, and they were probably in syndication by then, but Columbo, shows like that where you had a cop or a PI, someone solving a mystery, and I've read a lot of different genres over the years, but I wanted to, at some point in the late two thousands to 2010, I wanted to write my own, and I really started writing that book.

(04:52): I know I had a finished draft of the first book, The Reluctant Detective, around November, December of 2010. I wouldn't publish it until October of 2017. So the process took me about seven years, but I wanted to do, I like the crime genre a lot. I was big into shows like Monk and Psych and things like that at the time,

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Catherine Rymsha.

Check out our discussion about leadership skills and crime fiction writing.

You can download a PDF of the transcript here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest today has a career in workplace communication and management. She teaches leadership skills and has a nonfiction book called The Leadership Decision which she published before her crime novel. Her crime novel is Stunning. It's called Stunning, and in addition, she has given a TED Talk on the importance of listening, so listen up. You might learn something. It's my great pleasure to have with me today, Catherine Rymsha. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly.

Catherine: You are. Thank you. Yes, you are.

Debbi: Excellent. Wonderful.

Catherine: So happy to be here.

Debbi: I was going to ask you about that, and I'd completely forgotten, in the big hubbub of trying to get connected.

Catherine: That's fine.

Debbi: You wouldn't believe, people. Anyway, thank you so much for being here. What is it that made you decide to write a novel, and a mystery at that?

Catherine: I love murders.

Debbi: Who doesn't?

Catherine: It's so odd saying that, but I'm talking to an audience who understands that. I love crime, I love murder. Even as a kid, I was reading like the Fear Street books and R.L. Stein and Goosebumps, and then ventured into Stephen King and then started to watch everything on ID, and 20/20 and Dateline, and all of those shows that dig into it. When I was a kid, I always wanted to write and I fell into leadership and wrote a ton about leadership, which for some, that's not the most thrilling topic in the world, which I understand totally. But then, I was pregnant when I wrote Stunning. It was a dream. It was based on a dream that I had, and I kept having the dream, and I thought maybe I should write this down and I just started writing. I would write before bed and just write, write, write when I had time and I wasn't sleeping or working a real job, and that's how it came about. It just felt like it needed to get out of my brain.

Even as a kid, I was reading like the Fear Street books and R.L. Stein and Goosebumps, and then ventured into Stephen King and then started to watch everything on ID, and 20/20 and Dateline, and all of those shows that dig into it.

Debbi: Interesting. So do you picture writing more books, or is this like your one shot ?

Catherine: I just came out with a textbook, also not as thrilling, very academic, but I want to get back into writing murder and crime and even if I could do something based on real life murder or crime. I think those are things that are interesting to me to explore next. But I do want to start getting into it and I keep saying that, and I thought all summer I'll write another book. And now summer has come and gone and the book is not written. So I'm thinking, well, maybe in the fall. I say that and I laugh because I don't know if it's going to happen that quickly, but it's more fun than writing leadership. I mean, leadership is important but crime and murder and making things up is way more fun.

Debbi: Making things up is fun.

Catherine: Yes.

Debbi: It's its own form of work, but at the same time it's fun work.

Catherine: It is fun work.

Debbi: Yeah. Your books - do you have a traditional, hybrid or are you self-published?

Catherine: I am self-published with my first two, but the textbook, I did work with a publishing company, so that was interesting too, to have that experience after doing two on my own and working with editors and beta readers and that whole spiel.

Debbi: The whole shebang, yes.

Catherine: The whole team.

Debbi: I was going to ask you about your publishing journey. What has it been like for you? Has it been what you expected?

Catherine: With the first one, it was a learning curve, because I wanted to find an editor and I found an excellent editor named Sandy.

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Anna Willett.

Check out our discussion about thriller writing and her Cold Case Mystery series.

You can download a PDF of the transcript here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest today is the author of several thriller novels, including five books in The Cold Case Mystery series. Her latest book is called Needles and Pins, and it's this week's giveaway, so make sure to check out the giveaway on my blog or on her Instagram. You can find it there on Instagram for sure. So it is my pleasure to introduce as my guest the author, Anna Willett. Hi Anna. How are you doing today?

Anna: Hi, I'm well. How are you?

Debbi: Good, thank you, although right now at the moment, I'm in Maryland where tornadoes are threatening somewhere on the horizon.

Anna: Oh really?

Debbi: Yes. Apparently we've been getting tornado warnings in different parts, not too far from where I live, but it's all very sketchy right now. Hopefully I won't be interrupting this podcast to dive under a desk or into a bathroom or something. I don't know where I'd go.

Anna: Oh, that's scary.

Debbi: It is. They are scary. In any case, let's talk about your thrilling novels rather than my thrilling tornadoes. At what point did you decide to write a series?

Anna: Well, as I said in the post, I wrote a book called The Woman Behind Her, and the main character finds herself as the suspect in a murder. The lead detective on that case was Veronica Pope, who I became very interested in and wanted to write more of, and I thought, I think that I can do a lot more with this character, and so I'm going to write another book. So after really what was the second book in the series, I thought, there's so much more I could do. There's so many more places I could take her. I had so many more ideas for the sort of situation she could be in and her team, and it went from there.

Debbi: It's fascinating. How many books had you written before you made that decision to go after that series?

Anna: I think it would've been 13, maybe 12 or 13 books.

Debbi: That's very interesting how a character gripped you to the point where you decided to create a series for the first time.

Anna: Yes. Well, I'd had another series. It was just three books, and it was about a journalist, but all the others are standalones. And the woman behind her was, I thought, going to be a standalone, but it turned into this ongoing series.

Debbi: Yes, it's fascinating. What inspired you to create Veronica Pope? What kind of inspiration went into creating the character itself?

Anna: Well, I wanted a female leader. I like to write about strong female lead characters, and so I wanted a female detective, and I wanted her to be - I'm going to say normal - so that she's just an average woman who's very good at her job, and she's not a super cop. She's not invulnerable to being hurt. She cares; she worries about things. She has her insecurities, she has her family life. She's a single mother. She has ambitions for her job, but she's also a little bit funny and down to earth, and that's the sort of character I would like to read.

I like to write about strong female lead characters, and so I wanted a female detective, and I wanted her to be - I'm going to say normal - so that she's just an average woman who's very good at her job, and she's not a super cop.

Debbi: Yeah, a very relatable sort of character.

Anna: Yeah, yeah.

Debbi: And skilled.

Anna: Yes. So I wanted her to be really good at her job and very insightful and very observant, but at the same time, I wanted her to have the same worries that most people would.

Debbi: Yes, exactly. Do you plan to write more books in the series?

Anna: I haven't decided. I'm not sure. I might. If something comes to me, if an idea comes to me that I think would be perfect for Veronica. Not all, but quite a few of the books I drew from real unsolved cases in Western Australia.

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features The Adventures of Philip Marlowe in "The Orange Dog."

And my thanks to Old Time Radio Researchers Group for the content. You're awesome!

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Michael J. Young, MD.

Check out our discussion about his medical thrillers and enter his book giveaway here!

You can download a PDF of the transcript here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. Today my guest is a doctor who spent 30 years as a surgeon while living and practicing medicine in Chicago. He's the author of a memoir/assessment of the current medical system - oh my - titled The Illness of Medicine: Experiences of Clinical Practice. He's also authored a trilogy of medical thrillers, and they all sound absolutely terrifying. I say that in the nicest possible way. I mean it in the best possible way. Anyway, he is also on the faculty of the Departments of Urology and Biomedical Engineering at the University of Illinois at Chicago. He has invented and patented various medical devices, too. Amazing guy! It's my pleasure to introduce Dr. Michael J. Young, medical thriller writer and M.D. Hi, Michael. How are you doing today?

Michael: I'm wonderful, thank you.

Debbi: Great. Fantastic. Wow. My first question to you, of course, is how are we going to fix our horrible healthcare system?

Michael: Oh, we could spend hours and days.

Debbi: Hours, yes. I was going to say, you probably ask the same question all the time in your books.

Michael: Every morning.

Debbi: Boy, I can tell you, I've had enough experience with it to know. So I was reading your first few chapters in Net of Deception and my gosh, what egregious examples of what not to do on the internet.

Michael: Yes, it is. Well, actually, Net of Deception evolved out of my dissatisfaction and distrust and frustration, if you will, with the online pharmaceutical access that people have. As easy as it is, and in many ways, the advantages of having it are great, but the disadvantage is that patients don't have the opportunity to truly have informed consent about potentially very dangerous drugs. And in this particular scenario, nefarious activity occurred within the company that was selling these drugs. So it was really predicated on my own frustration with that evolution of how drugs are obtained today.

Debbi: Yes. And not to mention medical information in general on the internet.

Michael: Yes. Again, it's a double-edged sword. I encourage people to have information. The problem with the internet is that you don't always know the reliability or the source of that information. And although it may say it's from so-and-so, it may not be. And so a consumer of this data, of this knowledge, of this vocabulary has to be extraordinarily mindful and diligent in assuring that they're obtaining that information from a reliable source.

I encourage people to have information. The problem with the internet is that you don't always know the reliability or the source of that information.

Debbi: Yes, absolutely. And so often things will depend on other factors that aren't being addressed in the information that you have, so that you don't have the whole picture.

Michael: No, you don't, and that carries over too much of the direct consumer advertising of drugs. I mean, there's only two countries in the world that allow it - the United States and New Zealand. That's it. And so when you hear or watch these ads on TV, everything looks wonderful but you're only getting a snippet because there's only so much time with which that information can be given to you and you can't decipher it. The legal information that's given is boilerplate. Everybody has the same side effects.

Debbi: It's read very fast.

Michael: Very fast, but also at the end, you may die. You may this, you may that. Well, of course. And so how is a consumer supposed to make that decision? But unfortunately for us as physicians, patients come to the office with a preconceived solution to the problem without really understanding the problem. But they've had this wonderful advertisement telling them all the benefits.