The Dialogue Doctor Podcast

How do you write a character's emotions when the character doesn't actually understand what they're feeling?

In this episode of The Dialogue Doctor Podcast, Jeff Elkins sits down with author Joan Lightning to work through a scene from her epic fantasy novel A Jealous God.

Joan's protagonist, Cherix, presents an unusual writing challenge.

He has spent his life inside a culture that has left him disconnected from his own emotions and relationships. He forms attachments. He feels guilt, sadness, fear, loyalty, and affection.

He just doesn't recognize those feelings for what they are.

That creates a fascinating problem for the writer. The character can't tell the reader what he feels, but the reader still needs to feel it.

Jeff and Joan dig into how to solve that problem by using inner thought, physical responses, rationalization, body language, and emotional contradiction.

Instead of having Cherix think, "I'm sad," the scene can let him experience a strange physical discomfort, question why it is happening, and then explain it away.

The character remains emotionally unaware.

The reader doesn't.

The conversation also explores how to build tension in a scene that contains a great deal of dialogue but very little physical confrontation.

Jeff and Joan talk about:

• how to create tension through subtext
• how to use inner thought between segments of dialogue
• how to let the reader understand emotions the POV character cannot name
• why emotional reactions still need to appear on the page even when a character represses or misunderstands them
• how to use physical sensations as clues to hidden emotion
• how a character can rationalize feelings instead of recognizing them
• where to pause dialogue and let the POV character process what just happened
• how to introduce unfamiliar cultures and social structures through character perspective
• how to describe objects the POV character has never encountered before
• how much worldbuilding explanation a reader actually needs
• and how fear, curiosity, and uncertainty can make a first encounter feel real

The scene also gives Jeff and Joan a chance to look at one of the great challenges of fantasy POV.

Cherix encounters people, customs, musical instruments, horses, saddles, and social expectations that are completely normal to the reader—or to other characters—but entirely new to him.

That means Joan has to describe familiar things without letting Cherix suddenly possess knowledge he could not possibly have.

And sometimes the answer is not to explain more.

Sometimes it is to let the character misunderstand.

The episode ultimately comes back to a simple principle:

The character does not always have to understand the emotion.

But the reader does.

For writers working with deep POV, emotionally repressed characters, unreliable narrators, fantasy cultures, subtext-heavy dialogue, or characters with major emotional blind spots, this conversation offers a practical look at how to bring the reader inside an experience the character himself cannot fully explain.

For more, check out DialogueDoctor.com

Why do writers keep studying Raymond Carver's "Cathedral" more than forty years after it was published?

In this episode of The Dialogue Doctor Podcast, Jeff Elkins sits down with members of the Dialogue Doctor community to dig into Carver's famous short story and figure out exactly what writers can learn from it.

"Cathedral" has an almost absurdly simple premise: a man, his wife, and her blind friend spend an evening together in a living room.

And yet Carver turns that small situation into a significant emotional transformation.

The group starts by talking about Raymond Carver, his influence on the modern short story, and why "Cathedral" became such an important piece of literary fiction. Then the conversation shifts from literary appreciation into writing craft.

At the center of the story is a first-person narrator who is insecure, jealous, prejudiced, and frequently unlikeable.

So why do we keep reading?

And how does Carver gradually change the way we feel about him?

Jeff and the group break down the techniques Carver stacks together to move the reader from emotional distance toward intimacy.

They explore:

• how Carver creates an unlikeable first-person narrator through character voice
• why insecurity can be more interesting than simply making a character cruel
• how the narrator's voice subtly changes as the story progresses
• the difference between reflective monologue and grounded dialogue
• how moving from three characters to two increases intimacy
• why physical proximity and touch change the emotional intensity of a scene
• how power gradually shifts away from the narrator
• why experiencing something creates more emotional intensity than hearing about it
• how Carver moves the narrator from observing blindness to actually experiencing a version of it
• how repetition, body language, and verbal habits create distinctive character voices
• why simple language can carry complicated emotional ideas
• and how multiple craft tools can work together to create one unified emotional journey

The group also digs into the famous ending, where the narrator and Robert draw a cathedral together with their eyes closed, and asks whether Carver earns that final transformation.

Why a cathedral?

Why does drawing it matter?

And why does a story about three people sitting around drinking, smoking, eating, and watching television end up feeling like something much larger?

One of the biggest lessons from "Cathedral" is that emotional storytelling does not require an enormous plot.

It requires control.

Carver knows when to move from prose into dialogue. He knows when to shrink the cast. He knows when to change the power dynamic, when to bring characters physically closer, and when to let the narrator experience the very thing he has spent the story judging from a distance.

For writers trying to create stronger character arcs, better first-person voices, deeper intimacy, or more emotionally powerful scenes, "Cathedral" offers a remarkable example of what happens when all the tools of a scene begin working toward the same emotional destination.

Because sometimes a story doesn't need explosions, murders, or massive twists.

Sometimes it just needs two people, a piece of paper, and a cathedral.

How do you write a quiet conversation scene where the real conflict is happening inside the character?

In this episode of The Dialogue Doctor Podcast, Jeff Elkins works with Dennis Kurlas on a reflective scene from Dennis's novel. The scene follows Margo as she meets her friend Fran for lunch and prepares to reveal something deeply personal: she has feelings for two different men.

On the surface, the scene is simple. Two friends sit at a café, talk about life, discuss romance, and catch up. But underneath the conversation, much more is happening.

Margo is trying to understand what she feels. She is deciding how much to reveal. She is testing whether Fran will affirm her, challenge her, or redirect her. She is also balancing romance, career, identity, social expectations, and the life she thought she was supposed to build.

That makes the scene a perfect case study in writing internal conflict.

Jeff and Dennis talk through how to shape the emotional journey of a scene where the stakes are not punches, chases, explosions, or arguments. Instead, the stakes live in pauses, hesitation, inner thought, body language, and the space between lines of dialogue.

They discuss how to:

• start closer to the action instead of opening with too much reflection
• move reflective prose into stronger places inside the scene
• use setting without letting it stall the emotional movement
• make dialogue connect cleanly after multiple rounds of revision
• add inner thought at emotional turning points
• use silence between paragraphs to create tension
• avoid melodrama by choosing one sharp emotional sentence instead of overexplaining
• show a character deciding how much truth to reveal
• clarify what the reader is supposed to hope for
• and make the final beat of a reflective scene ripple through the rest of the story

The conversation also digs into Margo's larger emotional conflict. Is she supposed to embrace the fullness of life, love, career, and desire all at once? Or is she supposed to pull back and focus on the professional life she has built?

That question changes how the scene should end. It changes Fran's role in the story. It changes whether Fran becomes an engine pushing Margo toward growth or an anchor pulling her away from it.

This episode is especially useful for writers working on literary fiction, romance, women's fiction, historical fiction, character-driven scenes, or any moment where the most important action is emotional rather than physical.

Because sometimes the hardest scenes to write are not the big action scenes.

Sometimes the hardest scenes are two people sitting at lunch, talking around the thing that matters most.

Dennis Kurlas also appears in episodes: 335, 317, 280, 246, 174, and 117

Can the Enneagram actually help you write better characters? Or is it just pseudoscience with numbers, occult-looking diagrams, interpretive dance, and a suspicious amount of personality-test confidence?

In this episode of The Dialogue Doctor Podcast, Jeff Elkins sits down with JP Rindfleisch IX to talk about the Enneagram as a tool for writers.

Jeff and JP approach the topic with the right amount of usefulness and skepticism. They are not treating the Enneagram like scientific law. They are not suggesting writers should trap characters inside rigid personality boxes. Instead, they look at the Enneagram as a practical storytelling tool: a way to think about how different characters make decisions, respond to stress, create conflict, and develop distinct voices.

The conversation starts with JP's approach to building character personality from the inside out, then turns into a funny and honest breakdown of the Enneagram's strange history, its disputed origins, its religious baggage, and why people are so drawn to systems that help them understand themselves and others. Then Jeff brings the conversation back to craft.

For writers, the most useful part of the Enneagram may not be memorizing all nine numbers. It may be starting with the three major centers: thinking, feeling, and instinct.

From there, Jeff and JP talk about how characters respond differently when they are under pressure. Some characters move toward fear and anxiety. Some move toward shame. Some move toward anger. Those core responses can help a writer build a cast where each character reacts to the same event in a different, believable, emotionally grounded way.

The episode digs into:

• how personality tools can help writers without becoming a cage

• why characters should not all process conflict the same way

• how fear, shame, and anger can shape a character's voice

• how the Enneagram's three centers can help you build a more varied cast

• why the nine types are more useful when you go big-to-small

• how helpers, achievers, challengers, loyalists, investigators, peacemakers, and individualists can show up on the page

• how Jeff used Enneagram thinking while developing characters in NRDS and Mojo and Mayhem

• why wings, subtypes, and deeper Enneagram theory can become too muddy for practical character work

• how basic fears and desires can help define a character quickly

• and how healthy, average, and unhealthy versions of a type can help writers think about character growth

This is not an episode about taking a personality test and assigning your protagonist a number.

It is an episode about using personality frameworks lightly, strategically, and creatively so your characters do not all sound like slightly different versions of you.

Listen in if you are trying to build a more varied cast, sharpen character voice, deepen conflict, or understand why one character reacts with anger, another with shame, and another with fear.

Because the point is not to prove the Enneagram is true.

The point is to steal what helps you write better fiction.

How do you open a fantasy novel with action without confusing the reader?

In this episode of The Dialogue Doctor Podcast, Jeff Elkins sits down with new fiction author Malcolm Coon to work through the opening of Malcolm's fantasy heist novel.

Malcolm has built an epic fantasy world loosely inspired by a D&D world he created with his brother when they were kids. Now he is turning that world into a story about couriers, rooftops, rebellion, hidden danger, and a young character being pulled into something much bigger than himself.

The craft problem starts with the very first scene.

Malcolm wants to open with movement, danger, and a rooftop chase. But he also wants readers to understand the world, care about the character, and know what kind of story they are stepping into.

That creates the central question of the episode:

How do you balance action, tension, worldbuilding, and character emotion in the opening pages?

Jeff and Malcolm dig into the difference between starting with action and starting with high pressure. They talk about why a solo chase scene can be hard to make emotionally engaging, how reflective prose can slow tension, and why sometimes the better opening is not "start with danger," but "start with joy, then interrupt it."

They also get into practical craft tools writers can use immediately, including:

How to keep a chase scene at ground level

Why trigger should come before response

How backstory can rob an action scene of tension

When inner thought works in third-person close POV

Why a character's "brain voice" has to be treated like another character

How to use internal reflection at emotional turning points

Why mentor characters need clear emotional pressure

How supporting characters can reveal the protagonist's growth arc

When to use an anchor character to show the path the hero must reject

How to make an opposing POV feel like the hero of their own story

As the conversation expands, Jeff and Malcolm move from scene-level edits into the larger architecture of the novel. They talk about Pep, a young courier looking for purpose, identity, belonging, and participation; Saul, the protective uncle figure who understands the cost of rebellion; and Maddie, the mysterious courier who pulls Pep toward the mission.

This episode is especially helpful for fantasy writers, adventure writers, heist writers, and anyone revising an opening chapter that has cool movement but not enough emotional clarity yet.

Listen in if you are trying to figure out how to hook readers, introduce your world, build tension, reveal character, and make your first chapter do more than simply start fast.

Because a great opening scene does not just move.

It teaches the reader what kind of story they are about to love.

For more, check out DialogueDoctor.com

What happens when a group of working authors sits down after a rough month and tells the truth about publishing?

You get this episode of Write Wrong Repeat.

In this conversation, JP Rindfleisch IX, Holly Lyne, Jeff Elkins, Tom Holbrook, and Crys Cain check in on their writing lives, business experiments, marketing wins, publishing frustrations, and the strange emotional math of trying to build an author career in public.

August was not an easy month.

The group talks honestly about grief, health scares, family chaos, ADHD, burnout, stalled goals, tight finances, pre-order jail, and the pressure to keep producing when life refuses to cooperate.

But this is not just a "publishing is hard" episode.

It is also full of practical author-business conversation. The group gets into translations, BookFunnel, mailing lists, Facebook ads, TikTok, direct sales, Kindle Unlimited, pen names, book events, reader connection, writing to market, paranormal detective fiction, cozy mystery, sports romance, and what happens when your book accidentally shares a title with James Patterson.

They also wrestle with a bigger question:

What is still giving you hope about publishing?

The answers are messy, funny, honest, and surprisingly encouraging.

The group talks about how old strategies do not necessarily die just because new tools arrive, why reader connection still matters, how community can keep authors moving, and why there are still more paths than ever for writers who are willing to experiment, simplify, adjust, and keep going.

This episode is for authors who are juggling too many projects, wondering what marketing tools are worth their time, trying to decide between KU and direct sales, struggling to write through a hard season, or asking whether publishing is still a place where real writers can build something meaningful.

Listen in for a candid, funny, behind-the-scenes look at the author life as it actually happens. Imperfect progress, weird experiments, failed plans, small wins, big pivots, and enough hope to keep writing.

Timecodes:

0:00 – Welcome to Write Wrong Repeat Episode 5 0:55 – Chris on why August is always chaos 1:50 – Translations doubled Chris's income 4:15 – BookShift, translation tools, and foreign-language mailing lists 8:50 – Tom on translations, grief, cozy projects, TikTok, and ads 12:50 – Facebook ads, scaling slowly, and building profitable momentum 17:50 – Holly's August: health scare, Amazon cliff, NetGalley, and TikTok dips 23:05 – Jeff's update: the conference, Mojo and Mayhem, and TikTok experiments 30:15 – Writing to market with supernatural detective fiction 39:00 – Paranormal cozy vs. urban fantasy detective: where does the book fit? 41:45 – Kindle Unlimited, wide publishing, direct sales, and reader behavior 52:00 – JP's update: ADHD, art projects, TikTok Lives, direct sales, street teams, and simplifying the business 1:05:15 – Preorder jail, KDP changes, and the search for publishing hope 1:07:25 – What gives authors hope right now: TikTok, KU, direct sales, translations, audio, and reader connection 1:12:05 – More niches, more tools, and why old publishing strategies still work

In this episode, Jeff Elkins talks with Tony Lee, also known to many readers as Jack Gatland, about writing fast, building a sustainable author career, and learning to think like a publisher.

Tony has worked across comics, screenplays, licensed fiction, journalism, audio drama, and novels. In this conversation, he shares what those different forms taught him about compression, dialogue, character, deadlines, reader expectations, and story momentum.

Jeff and Tony talk about the transition from traditional media work into indie publishing, why readers remember characters more than plot mechanics, how Tony uses reader feedback to shape his series, and why authors need to be honest about which books are passion projects and which books keep the business alive.

They also discuss burnout, AI, productivity tools, writing to market, author conferences, comparison, money, and the mindset shift that happens when a writer stops waiting for permission and starts making strategic decisions about their own career.

This is a funny, blunt, deeply practical conversation for authors who want to build a writing life that actually works.

How do you make readers root for a character who has done something terrible?

In this episode of The Dialogue Doctor Podcast, Jeff Elkins sits down with new author Aubrey W to talk through one of the hardest emotional arcs to pull off: repentance.

Aubrey is working on a thriller built around a character who has done real harm, but she does not want the reader simply waiting for punishment. She wants the reader to long for redemption. That creates a powerful craft problem. How do you make a morally compromised character compelling without excusing what they have done?

Jeff and Aubrey dig into what makes readers forgive, follow, and even love difficult characters. They talk about redemption arcs, unlikable protagonists, hidden wounds, vigilante logic, unreliable narrators, and the emotional difference between justice, revenge, repentance, and mercy.

The conversation pulls examples from Six of Crows, Les Misérables, Gone Girl, The Girl on the Train, Dexter, and Spider-Man to explore how authors can give readers permission to care about characters who are lying, hiding, hurting people, or justifying their worst choices.

They also get into the practical craft of first-person POV, how to create two distinct narrator voices, how inner thought changes pacing, when a character should lie to the reader, and why some stories only work when we are trapped inside the character's head.

Listen in if you are writing a thriller, a redemption arc, an unreliable narrator, a morally gray protagonist, or any character who needs the reader to think, "I hate what you're doing, but I still want you to change."

Because redemption only works when the reader still believes there is someone inside the character worth saving.

For more, check out Dialogue Doctor.com

Two huge stories. Two very different emotional experiences.

In this episode, Jeff Elkins and Tom Holbrook sit down for a spoiler-filled conversation about Spider-Man: Brand New Day and Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey.

But this is not just a movie review.

It is a craft conversation for authors.

Jeff and Tom dig into why some stories feel emotionally satisfying while others feel impressive but distant. They talk about spectacle, stakes, character wounds, nonlinear structure, callbacks, moral choices, emotional payoff, and the difference between a story that feels big and a story that actually lands.

Along the way, they compare Spider-Man's ground-level vulnerability with the epic scope of The Odyssey, unpack how Tom Holland's performance creates instant emotional connection, and look at what Christopher Nolan does well when building structure, symbols, trauma, and mythic weight.

This episode is for authors who want to understand why readers care.

Not just why a plot works.

Not just why a world feels big.

But why a character's pain, choices, relationships, and emotional movement are what make a story memorable.

Listen in if you are writing fantasy, sci-fi, thrillers, superhero stories, epic fiction, or anything with high stakes; and you want those stakes to matter on a human level.

Because spectacle may get attention.

But emotion is what makes the story stay.

Thriller writers hear the advice all the time: get to the inciting incident fast.

But what happens when you get there so quickly the reader has not had time to care?

In this episode of The Dialogue Doctor Podcast, Jeff Elkins sits down with author Jed to look at the opening chapters of a corporate thriller with a romantic subplot. Jed's story begins with a stolen item, a veiled threat, a high-pressure professional team, and the kind of tense setup thriller readers expect.

The problem is not that the opening lacks conflict.

The problem is that the story may be moving so efficiently that the reader does not yet know who to emotionally follow.

Jeff and Jed dig into one of the trickiest craft problems in thriller writing: how to use third-person omniscient POV without making the reader feel unanchored. They talk about "head-hopping," the difference between omniscient narration and a guiding narrator, and how a small narrative guide can help direct the reader's emotional experience through a big cast.

They also explore why a thriller opening may need a little more character interaction before the crime lands, how dialogue can make a professional team feel alive, why a front-loaded letter may distance the reader, and how to balance fast pacing with enough emotional connection to make the tension matter.

Watch this episode if you are writing a thriller, working with a large cast, struggling with POV, or trying to figure out how to make your opening chapter feel tense, cinematic, and emotionally grounded.

Because a great thriller does not just start with something going wrong.

It starts with readers knowing exactly why they should care.