Crime and criminality are central concepts in American political discourse - fears of crime, crime as code for race, or illegal immigration are all common issues.

Now we have a movement running the country that is obsessed with crime, but also led by criminals, how do we make sense of that? Why is that so appealing to so many, and how do we talk them out of it? I'm joined by one of the best writers on the criminal justice system - Josie Duffy Rice - to discuss.