The Hold Room

Kisa and Max talk to Anthony Barnes, Chief Operating Officer the Airport Minority Advisory Council or AMAC. He emphasizes the world that technology can play while underscoring the value of personal interaction in creating a positive passenger experience.

The Hold Room, Season 2 Episode 3

Transcript

[Introduction]

TJ: Welcome to The Hold Room with ACC: a quick update on all things relating to airport development as well as the Airport Consultants Council.

Laura: This episode is part of the passenger experience series hosted by ACC Terminal and Facilities Committee. In this series we are collecting the experiences and perspectives about the future of passenger travel, including changing demographics such as the U.S. population aging and becoming more multicultural, new technologies, labor and supply chain shortages, and what the future may have in store. Thank you for joining us in the Hold Room.

Paula: In this episode of the Hold Room, Anthony Barnes, with the Airport Minority Advisory Council or AMAC, joins Kisa and Max. He emphasizes the world that technology can play while underscoring the value of personal interaction in creating a positive passenger experience.

Max: Welcome back everyone to the Hold Room. We are very excited to have Anthony Barnes here with the Airport Minority Advisory Council or AMAC with us. Anthony, could you please introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you do?

Anthony: I am Anthony Barnes, AMAC’s Chief Operating Officer. We are the only national nonprofit trade association that's dedicated to increasing diversity within the airport space. And so, we look at airport contracting as well as employment opportunities and look to see ways that we can bring those opportunities to our diverse membership. I have been with AMAC for the past seven or eight years or so, leading their membership department as well as operations.

Max: Great, well we're glad to have you here today. Could you tell us a bit about what a positive passenger experience means?

Anthony: When I think of a positive passenger experience, a few words come to mind. First: safety. Pre-pandemic we were talking about your physical safety and we were looking at individuals in the airports and the things that they may bring in the airport. A lot of the discussion was around that, but post-pandemic we are now thinking about our health and looking at ways that the airport is practicing safety as it pertains to health and making sure that facilities are clean for passengers. So, when I think of a positive passenger experience, I think of the airport looking at ways to keep the passengers safe both physically and also health wise. Then I also think about sustainability. Passengers, they want to know that they're contributing to the environment. That we're not negatively contributing to the environment. So as we are building our airports for the future, it's important that airports are looking at ways to reduce environmental impacts. And so, when I think of a positive passenger experience, I think of sustainability as well. Finally, when I think about a positive passenger experience, I think about technology and ensuring that technology is assisting us with our travel. I think of a technology to lessen security lines and get us through new shops and purchasing our snacks to get on the planes very quickly. And technology has an opportunity to do that for us, so a positive passenger experience is using technology in order to enhance the travel experience for the passenger.

Max: And so, what are some instances of technology implementations that you can think of?

Anthony: Yes, so for one they talk about in order to avoid security lines, you can't just do TSA pre-check. Now you have to do the Clear and TSA pre-check, and having Clear at airports I think personally has been a blessing for me to get through lines very quickly. Also, some airports I know have other ways to communicate with passengers, including digital customer support services because many times there are challenges with just needing some type of customer service finding the desk or finding employees to assist you and so having digital customer service implemented in airports is one thing that's great for passengers. And then finally I think about passenger analytics. There are tools out there that are gathering data to help. With passenger analytics and with that data our airports can meet the needs of our passengers better and be more informed with making decisions. One example of that is Thanks Again, which is a platform that I know that some airports use in order to collect passenger analytics.

Kisa: I think that was an interesting point you brought up about TSA pre-check and Clear how it used to be. If you had TSA pre-check, then you were going to bypass the lines and now it seems that Clear is the one with the shorter lines. Have you seen sort of bigger interest now and people getting Clear as well.

Anthony: Absolutely. And in fact, many times when I'm flying through the Atlanta airport, the Clear line with TSA pre-check is much shorter than just the TSA pre-check, and so that helps ease security lines because the passengers are able to flow to different entry points into the airport. It's so important, and I think it's just a great tool to use that we see in our airports and really merging it across the country.

Kisa: So, I think another question we were interested to ask you is what are the challenges that the aging population faces traveling, and what solutions should be implemented to mitigate these challenges?

Anthony: We talk about technology advancing us right? But then sometimes it can be a barrier. Believe it or not, we're thinking about contactless service and some of the stores at our airports. Some of our aging population may be a little more challenged to get used to that technology and to really use it. And so even though technology is here and it's for us and it's helping us advance, still having that personal touch, I think really helps our passengers. So having effective customer service group within the airport, I think is still in need. So, if that is a digital customer support services or if that's a real person, I think we can have technology, but we should ensure that we are equipping our aging population with the tools necessary in order to really be able to use it. I also think about accessibility and long security lines that our aging population may have to deal with. Again, providing tools that can assist with our aging population, so ensuring that it's easy to secure a wheelchair or to secure assistance to get from one end of the airport to another would be very helpful for our aging population.

Max: Certainly, the concept of a digital customer service application would be useful in matching the airport staff with the needs of a variety of passengers, whether aging or otherwise. I'm curious how staffing levels have impacted that recently. Has that been any sort of thing that you anticipate could hamper the deployment of some sort of a digital customer support system?

Anthony: That's a very good question. Even going through the pandemic and even now we're experiencing staffing challenges at our airports. Because of these staffing challenges, airports do have to make decisions and really come up with ways in order to fill the missing gap. So that may be a challenge for some of our airports and finding staff that could really assist with that due to the staffing shortage.

Kisa: Absolutely, we would also like to ask you what is most intriguing to you about new and emerging technologies being offered? What do you wish there was?

Anthony: I think it's really intriguing on how quickly technology is really advancing the operations of airports, and if we look just around the world, we see that this is taking place. I was reading a CNN article and they were talking about how biometrics is changing the face of air travel. An example I think they used was American Airlines and how they are already testing biometric boarding at some airports. And they're talking about expanding it to check in and then security checkpoint and then and then of course boarding. I know that the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey and other airports are looking at planning for this over the next decade. And looking at artificial intelligence, which we know is emerging as well. The question was what you wish years ago, us randomly thinking about walking through an airport and possibly looking up and seeing messages and information that was just for you. And we see now that Delta is actually doing that where they're looking at parallel reality where content on screens is personalized for the passengers. So, seeing that implemented in our airports, I think would be a game changer for us as we navigate the airports.

Kisa: Well, for our listeners who haven't seen that yet or aren't familiar, can you explain sort of what type of information is shown?

Anthony: It's information, it's content that it's directly for you. So like flight information, flight status, and gate information that you can easily find. With about just changing the face of digital signage and how we navigate through the airport. Right now, it's looking up at information and signage, but as you know, if you see a list of flights, it's kind of hard to find your flight, right? And it's hard to find your city and find it quickly. So, as we're going through airports, it's important to find information. Right? Because you have to get somewhere, right? You're on a time schedule, so having that information right there quickly, readily available and think it's so important.

Kisa: Now what is minimally acceptable for positive passenger experience?

Anthony: Number one: easy navigation, getting around the airport very quickly, knowing where you need to go, where the pickup place is. If you're doing Uber and Lyft or any of the other car share taxis, then I also think about friendly staff and helpful staff. It's always nice to have someone kind of direct you. I know sometimes when I'm racing through an unfamiliar airport you could kind of have that lost look. And you know when folks can kind of just reach out and just help you navigate. I think it's so helpful. And then also, even if you don't have getting anything to eat or whatever, I think minimally acceptable are clean and adequate facilities. Everyone has to use the facilities and so having clean and adequate facilities are the minimal acceptable things for positive passenger experience.

Kisa: I like how you keep bringing up the importance of that personal touch. So even though a lot of things may be going digital, people still like to have a positive one-on-one interaction. How do you balance the need for a upcoming technology, but then also keeping that personal touch and one-on-one interaction with staff?

Anthony: Yeah, I think it really has to do with putting yourself in the place of a passenger. Many times, when passengers are traveling, whether they are frequent travelers or whether they travel once a year, especially those that travel less frequently, it can be quite stressful getting through the airport. Especially if it's an early flight, so you're waking up early to fight traffic to find parking to get to the airport. There's a lot going on for the passenger before they even get to the security line. And so, if there's any way that an airport can help ease the passenger, I think is so important. Just a simple smile or a simple greeting can go a long way. I think it would add to the positive passenger experience.

Max: We had talked before about more or less what a basic acceptable positive passenger experience is, right? But I think you're starting to talk about what can really bring it to the next level. If an airport is really looking to enhance its passenger experience, what is some of the low hanging fruit that they can do to bring it to the next level?

Anthony: That's a good question. I think in order to bring it to the next level. What keeps going in my head? I'm thinking about like a concierge type service, something that really would put more control with the passengers, but then also provide some level of resources for the passenger. For example, the digital customer service support area. To me that's taking it to the next level, 'cause now I don't have to go and try to find this desk in the middle of an airport. I can just pick up my phone and reach out for customer support. Another example of this would be the mobile ordering. Now there are apps where you can order your food and you can have it delivered to your gate. And so something like that is the next level. Not only are we enhancing our airport with top restaurants that you'll see on the street with great food and great drinks. But now we're making it easy for you to purchase the food and still make your flight in time. Because we've now provided access for you to do that. So taking it to the next level, I think really is about putting more control with the passenger, but at the same time providing resources for the passenger as well.

Max: The word that comes to mind as you were speaking was independence, where the customer is empowered to make the decisions that they want. If they want to seek out customer support that's there for them. If they want to just kind of sail on through, they can do that too. And that actually ties back into the concept of accessibility. Last season we had Andrew Palmberg on who is a member of the deaf community and he's a representative from the Travelers with Disabilities Advisory Committee at Minneapolis-Saint Paul Airport. And he was talking a lot about accessibility, and he emphasized the need for independence. Passengers just want to have a degree of control autonomy to move through the space of the airport and to control their own experience, their own destiny. So, I think you've hit the nail right on the head.

Kisa: Anthony, thank you so much for your great comments and answers to our questions. This was super intriguing and we hope you enjoyed it.

Anthony: Thank you, I definitely enjoyed the conversation. Thanks Kisa, thanks Max.

[Outro]

Wendy: Thanks for joining us in The Hold Room for this special podcast series exploring the new passenger experience. You can find more from this series on the ACC Training Hub—that’s training.acconline.org/the-hold-room—or wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple Podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, etc. Follow us for more content from the Airport Consultants Council. You can support this podcast by leaving a rating or review and by telling your friends and colleagues about the podcast. Thanks again.

The Hold Room, Season 2 Episode 2

Transcript

[Introduction]

TJ: Welcome to The Hold Room with ACC: a quick update on all things relating to airport development as well as the Airport Consultants Council.

Laura: This episode is part of the Passenger Experience series hosted by ACC’s Terminal and Facilities Committee. In this series, we are collecting the experiences and perspectives about the future of passenger travel, including changing demographics (such as the U.S. population aging and becoming more multi-cultural), new technologies, labor and supply chain shortages, and what the future may have in store. Thank you for joining us in the Hold Room!

Paula: In this episode of the Hold Room, we get the perspective from one airport planner to now corporate diversity and inclusion program manager at Mead & Hunt Anita Cobb on how changing demographics and labor shortages are impacting the passenger experience. We will explore technology updates and airport design that should be considered as our airport passengers continue to change. Welcome to The Hold Room.

[Interview]

Max: Welcome back to The Hold Room everyone. We're very excited to have Anita Cobb here with us in the hold room. Anita Cobb is with Mead & Hunt. Anita, would you spend a few minutes just telling us a bit about yourself? What you do? Who you are?

Anita: Sure, absolutely. I’m Anita Cobb and I work for Mead & Hunt, and I work out of our Lansing, MI office by way of our Denver office, because that's where our sustainability and environmental planning services are actually based. So, I've been with Mead & Hunt for the last five years, and I've had a super fun experience learning how to figure out how in our aviation practice we can take care of people, but I also take that extra step of looking at how we engage people. So, community engagement and things that help our disadvantaged business partners be able to become independent in the marketplace, and then, I also just pay attention to how we're dealing with industry organizations, colleges and universities to start influencing aviation from the perspective of recruiting new people into our industry as well.

Laura: That's really exciting. Thank you. So, from a perspective of what's going on in the terminal planning right now, what is it a positive passenger experience mean to you?

Anita: Well, this is an interesting question just because I think I've gained a new love and passion for the passenger experience quite recently. If you think about it, your Atlanta Airport Hartsfield they had approximately 55 million people go through their terminal in 2019, and when you think of the sheer volume of individuals going through that airport, the passenger experience has to change in order to be able to accommodate all those different levels of ability, and all those experiences of people who go into the airport. So, it's just really exciting to see that. There's a lot more attention being paid to human centered design and really looking into how we're engaging with people to understand what their current experience is and how we can help to improve that.

Max: I'm curious, what are some specific changes that you feel like you've seen recently that are really kind of edging us toward a more human centered design aspect of the airport terminal?

Anita: Absolutely, that's a great question too. Airports are becoming little cities more than just by like identity of what an airport has traditionally been. They are really taking on the feel of having places for you to shop, they have places for you to sleep, they have all these different things that allow you to be able to feel like you have a lot of the comforts of home. As you wait for your flight to leave, and I think that as we're looking at some of the more progressive airports, you're seeing things like these meditation spaces or reflection rooms, so you can have quiet. The sensory rooms are going in for people that are neurodiverse in order for them to be able to have a comfortable experience. To have things like adult changing tables that are going into bathrooms and mothers rooms for them to be able to nurse their kids, and I think that as we're looking at airports and they think about how people have these diverse needs based on their ability. It’s really cool to see them design spaces that are meant for people to be able to, you know, not have to be frustrated or stressed before they get onto a plane. Having some cool connections to the community as well, I saw, well, I think it was Ontario Airport, that had some ties back to how you can get your dog on the news if you snap a picture of your dog or a service dog in the relief area, so there's little things like that that are really cool and coming out to help people feel like the airport is so much more accessible. I think another thing that's really cool is how they're creating inclusive areas for children. I think as people are being more cognizant of the needs of individuals as we travel and just as we do business in general and thinking about how our well-being is impacted, by not only the travel experience, but just being able to be away from home and what you're comfortable with is really important for us to pay attention to.

Laura: Yes, absolutely. Those are all incredible things, and I think it's amazing to see that as a parent to have those experiences and be able to see how it's transitioned throughout the terminal evolution, I want to say, because it keeps improving and becoming more accessible. Have you seen anything or do you know of anything that you might be in play, especially with some of the demographic changes, of baby boomers retiring and wanting to travel more, the population is aging. There's a subset of people who are just now having children, and like you already mentioned, a lot of the things like the mothers room, the playgrounds and terminals.

Anita: You know, I find some comfort in the fact that airports are being more cognizant of the aging population. Because, if you really think, about it and COVID actually taught me this more than anything else, there are a lot of things that are put in place to help people with mobility or vision or hearing impairment, and a lot of that comes with age, you know, unfortunately, but those things that are put in place to help us or help people with those impairments, they actually become assets to other people as well. I learned that because my son he ended up dislocating his shoulder and the biggest help in the world to him was to be able to have those foot pedals on the door. And, as we look at different things that are being created for airport spaces, either by way of them thinking about, like having carpeting on the ground, is that safe for people, are they changing it over to tile? - or having the people who are available to help individuals with disabilities get from gate to gate, they're even changing some of the ways that they do that. One of the really cool things that our witness had an innovative design challenge recently was they're creating these chairs that will help individuals get from place to place throughout an airport with a special screen that will help them be able to interface with somebody (in case they have any issues while using this chair), and the chair gets them all around the airport, and the chair has different things to help them mobility wise and then you have that personal touch of like your on demand customer service right there on the chair for you. And even though that's something that's one of those innovative designs that hasn't quite come into play yet - there's a lot of things that are shaped up just like that. That makes us think - How can we make sure that people don't feel isolated and alone? - or, like they don't have service or help when they come to an airport. As we start to create more strategies that are geared towards making people have to be more conscious of your physical body ability, it'll create a lot of synergy for people that are able bodied and for those who have disabilities as well. But then there's also things like changes in technology, like as we're looking at some of these airport technologies, they're still being inclusive for people who might not have that experience to be as progressive with technology, they're trying to bridge that gap, something that maybe we should be considering a lot more.

Laura: It's incredible, you said that because as you were talking about the technology innovation with the seat and having somebody there - I was thinking about the cell phone situation and then you brought it up. I just flew internationally and came back and it took a good two days for me to figure out how to turnoff and turn on my SIM card so my phone worked in the US again. Any kind of airport that has international travel, you're going to have people come in, while they might be really good with technology, their personal technological devices might not work right away - you can't pull up things electronically on your device it has to be on some local device. - And you're right, there's huge technological improvements, and yet, there are people who are not able to (or not willing) to use that, and so finding that middle ground of interface, of experience levels, of ease of use, and integrating all of that and not having two completely separate groups of people, but how they all comingle with one another. Thank you for sharing all of that very, very interesting.

Anita: Absolutely.

Laura: Now, adding onto that, do you think that there are some efficiencies to be had at airports? That right now, airport design or airport security might be impacting labor shortages?

Anita: One thing I thought about immediately was just the logistics of an airport period. Let's say that you work at a certain restaurant on a certain concourse - It's a pain for you as a passenger to think about what it means to park your car and get all the way to said location so you can get to your gate. So sometimes you know, especially with people that are of different ability that might not be the best incentive for them to go work at a place where they know they gotta walk the length of a football field in order to be able to get to work. I think even though there are a bunch of restaurants and shops and stuff, airports are typically more expensive than other locations, so if you're paying me $11.00/hr and you want me to buy a sandwich, that's $18.00 and I don't even get it chips and a drink that doesn't sound like you know what I want to do to, you know, be able to maintain my employment. So, maybe there would be better ways for airports to think about how they could incentivize workers to want to work in a facility that might not have opportunities for them to have a gym or other things.

The other thing I thought about, and jobs in general right now, as we're talking about parents, that childcare situation is a big deal too. If there was ever a way for an airport to figure out how to have an onsite daycare for their employees, I think that they would have a booming amount of applicants. Even like if they [airports] just were to create better means of people to transport themselves to work, maybe you know airports - I'm thinking of Denver (Denver International Airport) right now, Denver’s far. For anybody to really want to work there and have it make sense. - If gas is $4 (per gallon) or something out there ,like it (gas prices) in Michigan right now, I don't want to drive 45 minutes to work to make $10/hr. or $12/hr. - So what does that mean? - Do you provide them (employees) with transportation, train or bus tokens to be able to better access the airport? And again, all of this can be remedied by doing some stakeholder engagement, talking to the employees, and asking them what they need. And I think we get away from that a lot because needs are so diverse. Every family is different. Every person is different. Every circumstance is, you know, just different enough to mean that there are millions of solutions to people's problems, but you know, just getting a good pulse on maybe the current the employees can at least start to try to chip away at some of those issues that take away from their reasons for wanting to be gainfully employed at the airport.

Laura: Yeah, like non-monetary incentives that help better the labor shortage and get people motivated to come to the airport, but (for example) what if the incentive is there is a gym at the airport and there's a fee for it, but it's free to them (employee) – or, There is childcare at the airport on an hourly basis, but it's free to employees. I think that can make a big difference, not just to the employees, but to the entire airport community – So, I think that you're right on target there. So, do you mind if I switch topics slightly?

Anita: Hey go ahead have at it.

Laura: All right, I was wondering if you've seen any changes that are related to the changing in demographics to more multilingual, multi-cultural?

Anita: Yes, Oh my gosh, what a great question, this is one of my favorite activities for an airport to engage in, because if you are really being a good steward of your community, you'll know what demographics you're working with. So, let's say an airport is in an area that has a high Hispanic population. The first thing that you definitely want to do is make sure that you (the airport) have signage that's available for them (Hispanic passengers) to read, or if you do any type of outreach, that you make it bilingual & things of that nature, but then, there's also the richness of the culture. I've seen a lot of airports that are taking that extra step to put art that's engaged with the community culture or think about illustrating different people in the community in general. I just love the fact that we (airports) are taking that step to educate others on people that are impacting that community, they're taking the approach of being able to bring what you would be able to see as a tourist in their city into the airport, I absolutely love that!

There's also, like you we mentioned about multilingual options and things like that, that signage is so amazing. Waste diversion services are how I got started in airport planning and we had some company an organization called “Recycle Across America” that we were working with that had options to create their labels, not only with different words, but pictures. I think that's going to be the wave of the future is to be able to do more graphically, because pictures are a universal way for a lot of people to understand stuff, because if you really want it to be inclusive, there's just no way that you'd be able to capture all those languages on one sign. Now, what you could do is put QR codes on stuff, because regardless of you know what language you speak, a lot of us have cell phones, so if you could take your cell phone and scan a QR code and that picture will give you what you need in your said language. I think that the airports can change the game with stuff like that (QR codes & graphics). But, the point is, that as we're thinking about cultures and how important it is for people to be able to practice who they are creating spaces where people can, you know, continue to be themselves is going to be really, really, really important. – And, I want to say that another part of it, you know, ingraining different cultures, religions, and languages into an airport, it's important for those (passenger) who are coming through an airport space to sometimes feel comfortable seeing things that are familiar as well - that can help with anxiety, you know, so I don't know what more inventive things are happening right now other than people taking a lot of time to just show people, people.

Max: I agree with you with your comment on signage. You know you can't on a practical level, you can't have a sign that's you know 3 Ft long to say “Restrooms This Way.” Right? …and it (the sign) have 17 1/2 different languages. I kind of want to pick up on something else that you were talking about - How do we incorporate in different needs within the passenger terminal experience. What role do you think that engaging with local DBE, SBE, LBE etc firms have in providing that perspective and how can they best gauge with the airport to provide that type of insight?

Anita: I think one thing that needs to definitely be illustrated about disadvantaged and small businesses is that they (small/disadvantaged businesses) exist to not exist, and, I say that because the DBE program was put in place all that time ago to say there are groups of people who don't have a fair shot at being able to perform (in airport opportunities), so what is it we (airport industry) need to do to give them a better opportunity at being independent. So, if the program was working as effectively and efficiently as this was supposed to, we wouldn't need it, because there wouldn't be any disadvantages. So, I think that the cool thing that small and disadvantaged businesses bring to the airport space is that they're (small/disadvantaged businesses) are not worried about being this big, huge conglomerate - they're more worried about “what is it that we need to do to put some best practices in place so we can be as effective and efficient as possible?” I think that a small and disadvantaged business experience just helps airports keep that experience local, it keeps the the money in the local economy, it may provide some opportunities for the airport to look at those businesses as places they would love to be able to grow and see them go into other locations, and maybe bring back some best practices. We're seeing that airports are struggling to find disadvantaged and small businesses to do some of their jobs – so, what does that mean? There's probably another synergy that can be uncovered there to help airports figure out how to maybe train some of these small and disadvantaged businesses to do some of the work that they're needing done, and I don't know if that answered the question either.

Max: No, it was a pretty open-ended question, so, no, you're good.

Laura: Awesome, this has been so wonderful to hear about all the different perspectives. Thank you.

Anita: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you guys and I mean as long as we can just keep working together and keep learning and keep growing and just keep challenging ourselves to think outside the box. I think things will just get more and more amazing.

Laura: Anita, thank you so much for joining us in the whole room today. This has been a very insightful and great discussion and hopefully we can hear more from you soon.

Anita: Absolutely thank you all for having me.

[Outro]

Wendy: Thanks for joining us in The Hold Room for this special podcast series exploring the new passenger experience. You can find more from this series on the ACC Training Hub that's training.acconline.org/the-hold-room or wherever you get your podcasts - including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher etc. Follow us for more content from the Airport Consultants Council. You can support this podcast by leaving a rating or review and by telling your friends and colleagues about the podcast. Thanks again.

Season 2’s focus is on the changing demographics in the United States and their impact on travel, technology, and what the future may look like.

The Hold Room, Season 2 Episode 1

Transcript

[Introduction]

TJ: Welcome to The Hold Room with ACC: a quick update on all things relating to airport development as well as the Airport Consultants Council.

Laura: Welcome to episode one of our second season of the Hold Room. We're so excited for you to join us. This season's focus is on the changing demographics in the United States and their impact on travel, technology, and what the future may look like. The season’s interviewers Max Vale, Kisa, Hanlon, Carrie Wojcik, Anita Cobb, Neil Chatwood, and Laura Canham will now say a few words about themselves.

Max: My name is Max Vale. I am an aviation planner of HNTB and I've been involved with the Airport Consultants Council since the end of 2020. I am based in San Francisco, CA. Over the next five years, I think one of the biggest changes that will hit airports is around decarbonization, not just in terminals, but in all manners of airport facilities ranging from rental car facilities to air cargo facilities. As part of airport decarbonization efforts, one area I'm hopeful for changes in public transit access to airports in the US. Airports have kind of grown up in the same era as the private automobile, so much of airport planning with respect to airport access revolves around automobile access. I'm hopeful that the push for decarbonization and increased sustainability will help break this paradigm. Airports will need to consider changes at the operational level as well as at the federal policy and regulatory level to help allow foreign fund transit connections in the airports. I'm excited to be part of this crew back for season 2.

Kisa: Hi, this is Kisa Hanlon and I work at Swanson Rink. I started the company in 2008 and marketing and I have now worked at the company for 14 years and I'm now the Director of Business Development for our aviation and data center groups. In the next 5 years I see sustainability continuing to trend upwards with more and more airports focusing on being as green as possible. I also see an improvement in passenger flow at the airports with a continual push towards biometric technology, hopefully resulting in a more expedited passenger experience.

Carrie: Hi, I'm Carrie Wojcik. I am a national account Rep at Inpro Corporation. I have had five plus years in the building industry. At Inpro I’m really focusing on the aviation market and I got involved with ACC to learn more about market trends. I think the biggest challenge I see for airports moving forward in the next five years is designing facilities to meet the needs of changing passengers, demographics, whether it be language barriers or even providing the necessary resources for the labor at the airport. People who work at the actual facility.

Anita: My name is Anita Cobb and I am Mead and Hunt's market leader for aviation equity strategies. And for the last four years I've been working as an airport planner focusing on sustainability, equity, and environmental justice. I recently came into my new role because of a lot of great work that's going on in the industry, focusing on taking care of people and putting them first when it comes to planning, engineering, and design. I'm very passionate about keeping people in the middle of our technical work and identifying ways for us to continually push our society to identify and remove barriers to get to a respectable quality of life for all. In the next 5 years I see the aviation industry finding ways to measure equity and the associated impacts. Right now, as we focus on human centered building design concepts, I believe that we will find that technologies and consortium style learning in addition to resource sharing will provide a safer, healthier, and more resilient aviation industry.

Neil: I'm Neil Bron Chatwood. I'm a digital signage specialist and I've been a member of the ACC for five years and this is my second year of involvement with the new Passenger Experience Committee. I spend my days focused on improving passenger experience through visual communications that could be displays within the airport or airlines control: Landside, airside and operational. Or it could be delivered on passenger owned technology such as smartphones or smart TV's that are in their homes. Over the next five years, I believe we're going to see an increase in the accessibility of information, particularly for those who have hearing loss, vision loss, and other conditions that have not been well represented historically. Higher quality information driven by real time analytics will enable passengers to make quick decisions about their next steps. They'll be moving through our airports with less friction, and it will result in less anxiety and more time to enjoy post security facilities.

Laura: Hi, I'm Laura Canham, senior airport planner and project manager at McFarland Johnson. I am excited for this new season of the hold room and believe that the next five years will be pivotal at the new frontier of aviation we’re at. That the biggest change I anticipate is adapting to and adopting electric aircraft. Both planes and vertical takeoff and landing. And what role airports play in that new dynamic. The passenger experience may be completely different when you fly directly from your last flight to the beach, the Conference Center, or closer to your final destination. Thank you all for joining us on this journey.

Thank you to our producers Max Vale, Carrie Wojcik, Paula Nguyen, and Laura Canham, our introductions by Paula Nguyen, the Airports Consultant Council, the Passenger Experience sub-committee to the Terminals and Facilities committee, everyone behind the scenes, and all of you, our listeners.

[Outro]

Wendy: Thanks for joining us in The Hold Room for this special podcast series exploring the new passenger experience. You can find more from this series on the ACC Training Hub—that’s training.acconline.org/the-hold-room—or wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple Podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, etc. Follow us for more content from the Airport Consultants Council. You can support this podcast by leaving a rating or review and by telling your friends and colleagues about the podcast. Thanks again.

Many successful airports engage in broad and diverse outreach programs to their local communities. In this episode of The Hold Room, Drinal Foster joins Laura and Max to talk about her involvement with such a program: the Traveler Advisory Committee, or the TAC, sponsored by Minneapolis-Saint Paul International Airport. An avid traveler, Drinal shares what she brings to the TAC through her personal travel experiences, and she highlights how the TAC has helped influence policy and development at MSP.

The Hold Room, Episode 22 (Drinal Foster)

Transcript

[Introduction]

TJ: Welcome to The Hold Room with ACC: a quick update on all things relating to airport development as well as the Airport Consultants Council.

Wendy: This episode is part of a New Passenger Experience series hosted by ACC’s Terminal and Facilities Committee. In this series, we are collecting the experiences and perspectives of different types of users of the airport passenger terminal, including: business travelers; leisure travelers; airport executives; airport, airline, TSA, and concessions staff; and airport consultant staff, to name a few. For more information on this series and the hosts, go back and give the first episode a listen to.

Paula: Many successful airports engage in broad and diverse outreach programs to their local communities. In this episode of The Hold Room, Drinal Foster joins Laura and Max to talk about her involvement with such a program: the Traveler Advisory Committee, or the TAC, sponsored by Minneapolis-Saint Paul International Airport. An avid traveler, Drinal shares what she brings to the TAC through her personal travel experiences, and she highlights how the TAC has helped influence policy and development at MSP.

[Interview]

Laura: Welcome back to The Hold Room. Today we have Drinal Foster joining us. Drinal, would you like to tell us a little about yourself and what your role in the aviation industry is?

Drinal: Absolutely! Well, thank you for having me. I am by day a senior diversity, equity, and inclusion consultant at a financial services company. I do a lot of travel for work, but I also am a leisure traveler. I travel personally, and right up to the pandemic had a goal of traveling to 100 countries, and got stopped short way through that. I also partner pretty closely with the airport Travel Advisory Committee.

Max: Could you tell us a bit about your role on the Travel Advisory Committee? That's for MSP, is that correct?

Drinal: Yes. So probably for the last year and a half, I've been a member of the Travel Advisory committee, and it's just been a fascinating group of individuals talking about travel experiences at MSP airport, talking about their businesses, and how it relates to travel—really just being a conduit, talking about the customer experience perspective, what are things that we've noticed, great experiences that we've had, maybe areas of opportunity. Maybe as we are traveling throughout the United States or elsewhere internationally, what are some of those great airport experiences, and bringing back some of that knowledge and insight to the Travel Advisory Committee. And so it's been a very diverse group of individuals. Just a lot of great insights and experiences as it relates to travel.

Laura: Yeah, and I think that kind of plays into what we're talking about today, too. So you touched upon this a little bit already, but how has the pandemic affected you, either your job, travel experience; but then also what you were just talking about, or the passenger experience throughout the airports that you've traveled at?

Drinal: Oh, gosh. Well, let me go back to the first part of it. So the pandemic—it's definitely it turned my world upside down. So I was traveling at least twice a month for work, and obviously just everything coming to a stand. You know, no more traveling, working from home, somewhat isolated to a degree. But outside of that, personally, you know, I talked a little bit about this travel goal that I've had of getting to 100 countries, and at a minimum, I would travel at least to one country every month while still having this corporate job. I've been at my organization for a number of years, have lots of vacation time, and I've just been this expert traveler, planner, solo adventurous individual, and everything’s just come to a standstill. So that's been pretty difficult. However, when the airlines started to open back up, the world start to open back up, I actually started to travel a little bit more. And I was very calculated around which airline I was going to travel with, and I was really cautious around that experience on the airplane—social distancing, you know, who's closing up the middle seat, extra precautions with the cleaning, and things like that. And I felt very comfortable traveling during the pandemic on domestic flights to go see my family out in Seattle, or maybe just taking a long weekend getaway—maybe going down to Florida or something like that, because we live here in the cold Minnesota weather. And so I've had the opportunity to do some traveling, which I've been so greatly appreciative for. But it's been definitely a big difference. Is everyone going to wear their mask on the flight? Is it going to be a challenging flight? All those different things, or things that I hope that it's always a great travel experience.

Laura: How many countries have you been to, and what's the next one?

Drinal: 43. And what's so sad, I had a 30-day sabbatical May 2020. I was hitting a milestone at my employer, also year (age) a milestone. And I was going to buy an around-the-world plane ticket and hit like 10, 11 countries and, just, nothing. It's a dream deferred, is what I'm calling it. I travel solo, I travel with a carry-on, so I don't even check luggage anymore. I'm a big Delta loyalist, but a lot of times I am flying all these other airlines too: JetBlue, Allegiant, you know, I will fly out of Terminal 2 and get to wherever the deal is because I travel on a budget as well.

Laura: That's awesome. So what's the next one? Like, I mean, around-the-world trip sounds like maybe at some point in time, but if you could just…one country, where's the next one?

Drinal: Right now, I would say the country that I missed out on—it was two. It was actually Spain and Morocco. Fly into Spain, do a regional airline into Morocco, go back to Spain, head home on Delta. Something incredible like that.

Max: So you kind of started touching on some of the changes that you've seen, like blocking middle seats and enforcing social distancing and mask compliance. What are some other changes that you've seen since the pandemic has hit when you've gone through airports that you're excited about?

Drinal: Well, one, just the fact that travel is opened up. You know, you could probably find some really super cheap deals. I'm also a frugal traveler, if I'm doing my own personal traveling. I think the other thing too that I've seen is MSP airport have new routes that they were introducing. I was really excited to see two airlines that came to MSP: JetBlue, the Allegiant airline. I'm actually going to be traveling with Allegiant in just a couple of weeks here with one of the new routes that they have down in Asheville, North Carolina, so really looking forward to that. Also, there's lots of art installations throughout MSP airport, which is pretty cool. I have not had the opportunity to see any of the live performances, so I have to make sure I catch one of those. But just, there's been a lot of care, thinking about the traveler experience. Someone sitting there for an hour layover, if they're there for maybe 2 hours, you know, there's something to see and do while they're at the airport, which is great.

Laura: You know, you tie in so nicely to all of our questions, I love it! If you could make one recommendation for a positive passenger experience, what would it be?

Drinal: It varies. What type of traveler are you, and what are the things that are most important? You know, the different amenities. If there was a easier way to navigate the airport wherever you're at would always be, like, the first thing that comes to mind. I think one thing that I already said was just that live entertainment. I think that would help with time flying by and de-stressing the traveler, if you will. So that's something that I think if every airport could do something around live entertainment where it makes sense. I think they're all doing a fantastic job and really, most importantly, keeping everyone safe.

Max: I'm curious a bit more about your responsibility and your roles with the TAC. What type of influence do you think the TAC has in terms of MSP’s management decisions or operational decisions?

Drinal: Oh, huge influencers. I love the fact that they do all their due diligence, really making sure that they have all the right stakeholders at the table as topics are being discussed, decisions are being made, sharing, you know, here are some things that are trending right now, here are some topics, these are things that are important for the traveler and the traveler experience today. And so I think it's a really great governing body, if you will—feet on the street that are very close to the traveler experience. I also think, too, just bringing in the various partners. Our last meeting, we had a really good discussion with a couple of our airline partners around what they're doing in response to the pandemic. Different strategies, initiatives that they're leading with to support their various organizations. And it's just fascinating bringing all those thought leaders together and being able to react to a real-time crowd that have knowledge and expertise to offer perspectives. It's been really significant, and even just the year and a half that I've been a part of the group, I've learned just a tremendous amount about aviation and really, most importantly, the customer experience, which has been really powerful.

Max: Yeah, speaking as someone who works in the aviation industry, it's very easy for us to get into a silo and speak the language, speak the vocabulary that everybody around us knows. And so we need those advisory groups that are comprised of members of the community, whether it's frequent travelers like yourself, or representing the business interests of, say, concessionaires or airlines. So what are some examples of some specific changes that the TAC has been able to influence at MSP?

Drinal: There's so many different things that you could probably touch on that TAC has really helped to influence and get the right outcomes. One thing that comes to mind: through the pandemic, we were talking about food and what food options—you know, I think everything got scaled back; staffing has been a challenge. But, like, the contactless, food delivery and some different efforts that are underway. There's a app, it's called Grab, you can order your food, and it can get delivered to you at your concourse, or you know, wherever you are, or you can order in advance. So that's been something that's been really significant. It seems like every time that we get together, there's something new that's trending, and TAC is already on top of it. A lot of times it's sharing information. Sometimes it's going to be us reacting to. There's opportunity for us to weigh in and maybe give a perspective as they're building out a strategy—you know, is there something else that maybe TAC hasn't thought of that should be on the table for consideration? But, you know, I think they’re very forward-thinking in their approach, caring for the safety of travelers, but really just trying to create a great travel experience at the end of the day. When we get together four or five times a year, it's just always super productive. Great discussion, dialogue. There's just so much to talk about; it feels like the time just flies by.

Max: Are there any initiatives that you're able to share about that the TAC is currently thinking about? Or even you, like, are there things that you want to see discussed in the next TAC meeting?

Drinal: Coming up, trending topics, I think number one is still going to be on the pandemic: getting through this current variant, if more will come, how are we going to prepare, and just always stand on our toes. I think this is definitely going to be one of those long-standing agenda items, I guess. You know, what does the future of travel look like post-pandemic is going to be a really big topic as well. Looking forward to anything that I can do to help support the work that TAC is leading. I'm definitely here for that.

Laura: That sounds like a great group of people and really influencing, so that's wonderful to hear. So from what you've seen from the TAC, from your experience as a frequent traveler, what does a positive passenger experience mean to you?

Drinal: Positive passenger experience: what that means is, obviously, can I get in and out, get to check-in, get through security check, get to my gate terminal in a relatively decent amount of time? You know, obviously I'm not talking about peak season, but outside of those times, just being able to have that consistent experience each and every time. There's not the long hold up, technology is working the way that it's supposed to, great customer service when you're going through the security check—as best as you can, right—grabbing a great meal or something before I board my flight, the restrooms are the way that they should be, and that I could sit and relax at my gate before I take this hour to three-hour-long flight. Just really having a very cool and mellow experience. That's kind of what I would describe as a positive travel experience.

Max: Almost like if you can get through the journey without really noticing anything.

Drinal: Yeah, absolutely! And it's almost kind of that same experience each and every time.

Laura: Awesome! Drinal, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been such a fun conversation, and I feel like I've learned so much about the representation of the TAC. So thank you very much for joining us today!

Drinal: Well, thank you both. I really appreciate it.

[Outro]

Wendy: Thanks for joining us in The Hold Room for this special podcast series exploring the new passenger experience. You can find more from this series on the ACC Training Hub—that’s training.acconline.org/the-hold-room—or wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple Podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, etc. Follow us for more content from the Airport Consultants Council. You can support this podcast by leaving a rating or review and by telling your friends and colleagues about the podcast. Thanks again.

Laura and Max chat with Cody Shulman, Managing Director at Xovis, about how people-flow technology plays a role in the passenger experience at various locations in the airport where queuing and crowding typically occur.

The Hold Room, Episode 21 – Cody Shulman

Transcript

[Introduction]

TJ: Welcome to The Hold Room with ACC: a quick update on all things relating to airport development as well as the Airport Consultants Council.

Wendy: This episode is part of a New Passenger Experience series hosted by ACC’s Terminal and Facilities Committee. In this series, we are collecting the experiences and perspectives of different types of users of the airport passenger terminal, including: business travelers; leisure travelers; airport executives; airport, airline, TSA, and concessions staff; and airport consultant staff, to name a few. For more information on this series and the hosts, go back and give the first episode a listen to

Paula: In this episode of the Hold Room, Laura and Max chat with Cody Shulman from Xovis about how people-flow technology plays a role in the passenger experience at various locations in the airport where queuing and crowding typically occur.

[Interview]

Max: Welcome back to the Hold Room. Today, we're very excited to have Cody Schulman here with Xovis. Cody, could you please introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you do?

Cody: Sure. Thank you Max. Cody Shulman. I'm the Managing Director for Xovis here in North America. So this is a hardware and software company. Together we make our own sensors and systems to really tackle people-flow and movement and throughput and analysis of anywhere in the airport where there's a crowd or a line or anything of the sort. I manage the U.S. business on that sense for both airports and our non-airports business as well.

Max: Thank you. So the first question that we typically ask our guests is how has the pandemic affected you, either in your job or your travel experience? Or alternatively, because you may not necessarily be interfacing directly with the airport environment, how have you seen the pandemic affecting the types of environments that you're usually working in?

Cody: I think it's had a number of interesting changes. I mean some of them we all know about, whether it's, you know, traffic downturns, you know drastic changes in airline route networks and things like this. In terms of how it's affected my job or me, you know everyone kind of hit the pause button initially and then we kind of took stock of things. Actually a number of projects we had kind of accelerated whether that was because an area that we were working on an installation or configuration of either, you know, temporarily closed or a decrease in passenger or throughput allowed the flow of people to be redirected and you could work on some kind of installation, maybe even during this day, which of course is easier and cheaper and things like that. We really had airports come back to us and say: OK, you know, I have a Xovis system in my terminal complex. I have eyes and ears, but you know how can I adjust them? How can I use them differently?

Now with the situation we're in and the kind of first early steps that we took were to that now buzz word that is part of our vernacular: social distancing, right? So we created a thing to serve our customers or users with what we call PDI physical distancing indicator. And so that was a comparative metric that we had to kind of come up with and and go at kind of right away to make sure that they were getting some useful thing to say Here is you know a situation here today, let's redesign it, reconfigure it, compare it to see how people are moving about differently. Another thing we did was analyze face masks. So we taught our system to detect whether or not a passenger was wearing a face mask. And that allowed them to look at compliance and see if they were adhering to certain things and make adjustments, whether it was from changing their announcements, signage, additional guidance on website, things like that, it was very interesting to see that pulled out.

Another aspect I think of the travel experience that changed with our work that we do was focusing on solutions and use cases where we can improve the staffing situation, right. We can't create people, but we all know that that's a crisis of right now with the, I guess we call it the great resignation now and staffing shortages and things and so taking a system and a tool that can really analyze if they have this fixed amount of stuff to get people in close air quotes and I think I can use them at a certain time of day, in a certain place to make the biggest impact and help with the most throughput analysis and reality of what I can do.

Laura: That's fascinating. Thank you. I guess one of the things that that really stood out to me just now is when you said, you know, being able to change a message that the airport is broadcasting based on some of the data that's coming in rather than having the same old spool of same through messages over and over and over again, but having some that pertains to, to what's happening, it's neat. So have you seen any changes at airports that you're excited about? Because the airports are, as you know, are constantly changing and so some things were probably already moving in some directions and some may have now switched, but what are you most excited about?

Cody: Yeah, that's a great question, Laura. There's been a substantial shift in sort of the areas that airports care about operationally in terms of passenger comfort and bringing passenger comfort in as a key part of the passenger experience. So yes, for us, you know the name of the game, the bread and butter for us has always been line queuing, predictive analytics about wait times and things like that and that has certainly not gone away. However, the throughput or occupancy in a live sense of restrooms, of concessions and retail spaces, are they full, you know, to what degree are they in use to the traffic that's going by them, jetbridges, the you know, live occupancy inside that from a density perspective, whether that's for either just health and safety reasons or also comfort reasons. Same thing for a lounge right. You might go into a departure lounge and scan your boarding pass on the way in, but you don't scan it on your way out, so it's unclear if the space is full or not.

Max: So like you said, the obvious application of Xovis’ technology is in queueing, so I think it's a security checkpoint of course. And then you mentioned that Xovis’ also has a non-airport business. So I think of that as maybe being shopping malls or concert halls or something where you're managing crowds. I guess the question is what kind of crossover is there for applications into restrooms and into holdrooms. Specifically, I guess you talked about it briefly but how does that specifically manifest? Are airport customers starting to install the systems in different places, and how do they use that information and that data?

Cody: Yes, that's really been an interesting concept. Crossover is the perfect word for it. Queues are one thing but sort of light occupancy and density is another right. So taking that you know airports have retail, airports want to know couple things, right. So in the like I said before with staffing it's you know they used to be open 18 hours a day, then reality set in, it's just not possible anymore. Maybe they're open 10 hours a day. What 10 hours should that be? You could address that based on sensor and analytic data from the storefront itself going in and out the sort of what we call footfall. You could do that from more from a passerby perspective of this segment of the terminal, this far out area, this like hammerhead, it only used, you know, afternoon peak. Let's take that data and make an assessment about what should be open or the mix of stores, same thing. You could even take that back to your leaseholds and say this part of the terminal has X amount of traffic, it's much busier. Prices are different for here based on actual data and science.

It's not quite as a business oriented thing with restrooms, but it's a passenger experience and comfort thing. So everybody is going to come off the plane when it arrives. Let's say a large 757, 210 passengers and they're all going to go to the same restroom. That restroom might have been cleaned 10 minutes before they arrived, but after they all went, it's totally wrecked. It's trashed, so let's not wait till we clean in the same rotation and that same hour. Let’s alert someone about that utilization and come back and clean it right away. That'll change your passenger experience, right? You know the very first thing you see when you get off a plane and assess a city, is that restroom experience. It's a real indicator and I know airports care about that more and more but how do you, again in a world of finite resources and staffing and things, make a thoughtful impact even with what you have?

Laura: You know, we've heard the restroom impact. We seem to be hearing it more and more. A couple years ago I was working with a client and the first thing that this person does when becoming airport manager is look at the restrooms. Because you're right, people judge airports by the restrooms and getting exactly that kind of an experience. You're getting off of an airplane. That's going to be a first impression of an airport.

Cody: Oh, you better believe it, yeah.

Laura: I know. It's good to hear that, that those kinds of things are playing into the analytics of it. So it's a two fold question. The first one is do you have because you mentioned people scan their ticket, getting onto the airplane but not getting off. For restrooms, would that be something that the passengers have to participate in or would that be something that there's an automatic system that counts movements in or out somehow without the passenger having to do something?

Cody: Yeah, so let me, let me backtrack a little and restate something if I wasn't clear. So I wasn't talking about necessarily boarding the plane, but entering like an elite lounge or a first class lounge or something like that. So taking that hand and that activity out completely you’re exactly right, we don't want to have them need to, let's say, proactively do something. So in our case, it's having a single sensor at the doorway and so it's a lounge or it's a bathroom. It's not a camera, it's a sensor which is important in a restroom, of course, and getting the automatic in-out and so that's where you'll get the data. That's going to be either say like an immediate alert, an e-mail, a text message for an operations team, or it could be presented publicly right in a screen that says “This, you know, this restroom is, you know, nine out of 10 people occupied”. We come with a fixed number for a certain space is full, and that could read to an individual person. Hey, OK, cool, there's still room for me. Or maybe someone a little more sensitive to that and they'd rather see a sign that has a line below it, you know, next restroom, 2 minutes walk to the left. And they know that that might be less crowded and more comfortable for them. So that could be, you know, a restroom, it could be a lounge, you know, any, any major hub might have multiple skyclubs or clubs and things. And yeah, but the one on the other side of the concourse, because I know that it's not as busy.

Laura: Awesome, so then my follow up was you’ve spoken a lot about exactly the density of people and all these things. If it wasn't restrooms and you had to make one suggestion about passenger experience, what would it be about improving the passenger experience?

Cody: I think it's about you know, airports are starting to have passenger traffic come back, so they're starting to have a little bit more money to spend, but they're obviously not back to the place they were. And I think that they want to make incremental improvements, but they also realize that, you know, let's say money talks in a way. And I think it's ACI that says a 1% increase in global passenger satisfaction, the ASQ generates a 1.5% increase in revenue growth, right? That's huge. And so if you can get passengers to spend more money, which is a result of them being happier, then waiting in line less, being stressed less, that can be up to, you know, a 45% difference for an unhappy passenger. Smooth processing, whether it's check-in, which is often kind of a little bit hectic, crazy, unstructured, or you know, as a security lane, I still think is a very important aspect of seeing that you know hey I can make a small incremental investment and see that rate of return immensely payout right while I'm helping that passenger have a better experience. I think it's something like about $500,000 often to build a single extra lane of a checkpoint. And so if you said, hey, I can target 10% throughput improvement on that lane, let's say from 200 people an hours is 220 and you have you have 10 lanes, then you've just gone from 2000 to 2200 passenger throughput an hour and you don't need to build that 11th lane. I think I got that math, right? That's kind of where I see it as a hey, like we don't have an open checkbook and unlimited funds allotment here so let's pause and take stock of what perhaps is lower hanging fruit that we can really improve the passenger experience with and bring it back to us financially.

Max: I think what you were talking about earlier, I know you didn't say this in your response to this question, but what you're talking about earlier about the transparency to passengers, I think could also be another way of enhancing the passenger experience. So a little anecdote from me recently. I was flying through Chicago and went to the Swissport Lounge in Terminal 5 and I stepped away for a second because I wanted to go grab some food outside at one of the concessions, and I come back to the lounge and there's a sign out front that says: sorry, this lounge is full. So I kind of hung out there for a few minutes and just waited and in that period of time I saw three people come out of the lounge, but no one came to remove the sign. So if there's some type of a way to put in a sensor that can just kind of automatically say, you know, lounge is at capacity and then as soon as somebody exits, OK, we have capacity for one more, something like that could be could be beneficial. And certainly with, you know, if social distancing is something that's going to stick around or that people are going to continue to be sensitive about or even thinking about for, God forbid, the next pandemic. This is something that we're going to need to be cognizant of when we're talking about tightly crowded retail spaces or lounges. If we want to keep these spaces open, we're going to need to have that type of transparency to users so that they can feel safe.

Cody: Totally. The use case you just walked through is a perfect one, right? You can then maximize the utility of that lounge that you were in, right? More people can be serviced. You can take the decision making away from the staff member who probably has five or six other things to worry about. And it's clear and it's informative for the passenger, right? That to me is a positive passenger experience.

Laura: So I have a slightly different question. I was reading on your interview in June with Authority magazine about baggage claim and one of the things that you mentioned is, is the system place for, you know, first bag on, last bag off, kind of an accountability of airlines. Can you talk a little bit more about that to reduce the crowding in baggage claim areas?

Cody: Yeah, that's another kind of area where, you know, where Xovis can play, let's say the eyes and the ears in different spots throughout the terminal. Baggage is another one of them, right? So you say I want to have a pointed sort of low cost visual understanding of what's going on. I want a report to understand utilization of different bag belts in a larger space, or understand how quickly a plane is being offloaded so the system can identify first bag on, last bag off, and then you know you'll see, are people crowding around the space for a long time beforehand or not, right, and then because, it's sort of, let's say the will of the airline to manage that, to report on that, to you know, rarely are there specific SLA’s the way that you'd see maybe in check in or something like that for that type of service. So this is definitely another area we can focus on.

Max: And how does that tie into, you know, a lot of airlines are trying to implement technologies where you as the passenger get essentially like an RFID chip associated with your bag. And so you as the passenger can more or less track where your bag is at all times. How does that tie into what Xovis is trying to do in baggage claim areas?

Cody: I would say it's parallel. Admittedly, I don't think that they are directly integrated. I think there are similar examples where they can be, but in our case that's sort of allowing the airport to maybe see what the airline is doing, right? You know, that's a similar use case. An airline may eventually have to remit data, let's say those seat factor load factors on a plane, but that comes in an aggregated form and it comes weeks after the occurrence, right? So if an airport puts a sensor or a Xovis system in a jet bridge, they get, you know, pretty much that same data right away. So it becomes a bit of a let's say a data grab, right? Data is a powerful currency and the airport wants to have perhaps what the airline has any airport that purchases of a system that the data is theirs to to do what they want, right? They could make it public, they could not. They can share it with anyone and share it with TSA, you know, or choose otherwise.

So that's kind of a story there, but perhaps something parallel would be in Seattle. Seattle has the Xovis system installed at all the security checkpoints, and they have those wait times, which can serve any passenger to any gate with any airline in the hands of the passenger to self load balance and to make a choice. That data is integrated into the Fly Delta app and so a passenger can receive information beforehand about where to go and little experience wait wise.

Laura: So we always like to end on a positive note. So what does a positive passenger experience mean to you?

Cody: So good question, Laura. I think the punch line is, is that it's frictionless. It's sort of like you're IT set up at work. You don't want to think about it and all the while things are being kind of shaped and presented to you thoughtfully, right? So whether you're a frequent business traveler or jetsetter or maybe that once every few years leisure flyer, the physical and digital setup of the terminal is clear to you right? Is check in structured? Do you know if you should line up right and then OK where you should line up? Is someone seeing you off on that journey and do they know where they can wait, and not get clobbered by a bunch of people rushing by. At the same time, you know, maybe there is a long line for security and you can't even see the end of it because of the way that the queuing space is set up. But if you have some information that tells you: hey, it's actually 7 minutes. It's OK. You know, maybe the first time I'm a little skeptical and then I see through, go through and experience it. It really was 7 minutes OK? Like OK, next time I see that you know I'm going to trust it. I'm going to be relaxed and you know back to our, you know former, statement that's the passenger comfort that we all kind of wished for today is to see, you know, experience and have transparency. Is that information available to you? Maybe it's even like I said, told you in advance and then you know so on and so forth, right? That's, you know, the things are open and transparent, kind of tailored to you because the airport itself has that operational vantage point to see anything and everything that's important from, you know, the immigration hall when you land from international arrival all the way back to the jet bridge at your next departure.

Laura: Two words, frictionless and transparent. I like that. Thank you so much, Cody, for joining us today. It's been a really interesting conversation.

Cody: Laura, it's my pleasure. Max, thank you as well.

Max: Thanks, Cody.

[Outro]

Wendy: Thanks for joining us in The Hold Room for this special podcast series exploring the new passenger experience. You can find more from this series on the ACC Training Hub—that’s training.acconline.org/the-hold-room—or wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple Podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, etc. Follow us for more content from the Airport Consultants Council. You can support this podcast by leaving a rating or review and by telling your friends and colleagues about the podcast. Thanks again.

TJ, a pilot at a major airline, shares how the pandemic has changed the passenger experience and the unique experience pilots have had recovering from pandemic conditions.

The Hold Room, Episode 20

Transcript

[Introduction]

TJ: Welcome to The Hold Room with ACC: a quick update on all things relating to airport development as well as the Airport Consultants Council.

Wendy: This episode is part of a New Passenger Experience series hosted by ACC’s Terminal and Facilities Committee. In this series, we are collecting the experiences and perspectives of different types of users of the airport passenger terminal, including: business travelers; leisure travelers; airport executives; airport, airline, TSA, and concessions staff; and airport consultant staff, to name a few. For more information on this series and the hosts, go back and give the first episode a listen to

Paula: Today in the holding room, Max & Delia are having a discussion with Pilot TJ from a major airline on how the pandemic has changed the passenger experience and the unique experience pilots have had recovering from pandemic conditions.

[Interview]

Max: Welcome back to the hold room. Today we have TJ who is a pilot for a major United States airline. TJ, welcome to the podcast. Could you tell us a bit about yourself please?

Pilot TJ: Hey Max, thanks. It's great to be here. I've been working for the airlines for almost 10 years and I've been with my current airline for about four and a half years. I have about 6000 flight hours, so I've been in the industry for a little while now and happy to answer any questions you have about what's been going on lately.

Max: I think the first thing that we're curious about is how has the pandemic affected you, either in your job or any leisure traveling?

Pilot TJ: I was actually traveling internationally the first time I felt the effects of the coronavirus. I was in Asia with my husband and we actually came home a day early because it was the start of the Chinese New Year and we'd been hearing all about this virus and we just didn't want to get too close to it if we didn't have to, so we actually came home early from a vacation, and then, personally, I flown most of January before we went on the vacation in February, flew a normal schedule and then in March, I stopped flying about halfway through the month. Everything I was supposed to do was cancelled, so I had full trips that came off my schedule and then I had days that I had to be available, but I wasn't actually asked to come in or fly at all. In April I flew one day trip and in May I flew a whole bunch 'cause I knew I took five months off starting last June, so knowing I had five months off coming up I flew as much as I could and kind of braced myself for some changes. That was kind of how things first affected me. I guess. Currently, I'm still not really back to fulltime flying. I've flown about 100 hours in the past year.

Max: Yeah, I'm sure that that wasn't easy.

Delia: Was there a sense of community around all of the different pilots and the crew to try to figure out how do we make this work during the pandemic? How did it feel for the industry and for everybody who you worked with?

Pilot TJ: That’s a great question and I wish I had a clear cut answer, but unfortunately what I kind of saw was a little bit of everything. Some people kind of turned on other groups, like some newer pilots thought the older pilots should all retire and some of the older pilots thought, “Well, I got furloughed once, you know, what's the big deal? - this has happened, you’re not the first people to get a furlough notice. I've got furloughed twice.” - so we had some divisiveness, if I'm being honest. There was also a lot of compassion. I had people who I maybe had flown two or three trips with calling me at home and saying, “Hey, you know, how are you guys holding up? You know, how are your peers?” We also had kind of complicated decisions to make because our unions and the companies, different companies responded different ways. Some companies were very positive and they said, “You know, we're going to do our best to keep as many people here.” Some companies just said, “This is the line. If you were hired in the last this amount of time, you're off property.” The different airlines all responded and tried to give an offer that works for the company to save the money and also somewhat worked for the pilots to try to keep more people on property. Some airlines made the early retirement available to people at different ages. Some airlines said you can take this if you're over 55. The different companies responded differently and I think that was based on their higher up, what they expected, and higher management as far as a recovery. The jury is still out on who did the right things, and I know I did my best to take into account how it affected the other work groups as well.

Delia: Thank you for that honesty, and it certainly sounds like it has been hard for you. I know that right now that traffic has been surging and I think it's like 85-90% back to 2019 levels at this time. I keep hearing that there's a lot of demand for labor and there's a very difficult time to find labor from your perspective, how do you feel about that? Is it a labor shortage issue? Is it because people were furloughed and then maybe they felt like, I can't return back to this industry? What is your perspective on that?

Pilot TJ: My personal perspective is that the airlines have been very brutal historically. I saw it at my previous carrier when people who had worked at a certain, especially smaller outstations. If you're in a smaller city and there's an airport, and that airport has 50 jobs, and there's three companies that offer the exact same services what happens is the airlines say, “OK, it's been two & half years since we gave this three-year contract to this Outfit A, so outfit B and Outfit C - can you do it with two less people?” So Outfit B and/or Outfit C say, “ I can do it with two less people.” So then they hire a lot of the same people that worked for Outfit A, but now they're starting over with benefits, they're starting over with, they don't have their seniority, they don't have control of their schedule, and they're starting back at probably year one pay as opposed to year three pay or whatever else they've earned. The airlines have done this for a really long time unfortunately, and in this case it's not an isolated airline or airport issue, it's an economy wide issue that people don't want to work for as little money as they've been working for. So the competition has in a lot of ways increased. Like I said, I just left a Costco here. The sign is up starting at $16.00 and hours, you know, if you can work daytime hours here or work on a ramp that's loud and hard, difficult work, maybe people are reconsidering those options. It's clearly a method of keeping costs down, and that's a management decision, and I guess management their obligation is primarily to the stockholders and the people who own the company and the shareholders. So I think that's how that decision is made and I think that labor is feeling more comfortable not working for as small of an income as they previously had. I'm personally frustrated with all the stores and everything that are still closed. We were over 100% of domestic travel and half the stores are closed. You know the line to get coffee is 30 people long. I would love to stop and get a coffee or a sandwich or something, but I don't have time to wait in a line for 45 minutes. All these stores that are closed with all these unfilled positions it's inefficient and it's frustrating for all involved, I would say.

Max: Yeah, lower level of service for sure. This is kind of a good segue into one of the questions that we ask all of the guests on this podcast and it's kind of taking the flip side of what you're talking about. You know, you're talking about some of the frustrations that you've seen recently within the airport environment. What changes have you seen at the airport that you're excited about that have come about due to the pandemic?

Pilot TJ: A lot of places have really taken the opportunity to improve their facilities. La Guardia is one that has just been amazing. They were very due for the upgrade, but there's a very nice fountain now. There's a much nicer terminal. Everything is open. Tall ceilings, everything is clean. New carpet, new everything. That's very nice to see. It's really good to see that the places that we're able to capitalize on the quiet time make those improvements. Some airports are getting heavier into that right now. I think I was in Nashville they're under some renovations and I was somewhere else recently that lots of taxiways are torn up 'cause some airports they started early on in the pandemic, and they had the opportunity and the time frame to get that done. They're back to needing all of those gates and all the space available. Personally, it's also just been nice to see I can't get to the good part without being honest about the bad part. People were horrified when they were flying. They were wearing hazmat suits, saw people with plastic bags in front of them and just crazy stuff. You could just see that they were scared. Their eyes were scared. They didn't want you to be close to them. And now people are getting a lot more comfortable again and that's been really good to see as well, to see the people coming back and they're not living in a place where they're as scared as they were a year to a year and a half ago.

Delia: Yeah, I'm curious. We always talk about in the pandemic a lot of the changes that happen because of the pandemic within the terminal. Have there been any changes that you recognize that have happened more on the airfield? What changes have you noticed on the airfield side?

Pilot TJ: There's a fair amount of construction going on. There's also less familiarity because we haven't been flying as much. So some people are their senior and they held a line and they flew pretty much all throughout, and other people, like me, I was nervous that this might be a several year recovery. I might barely be flying for a long time, so I've prioritized my other job, so I'm not as familiar as I used to be. That's definitely frustrating. Some of the frequencies come back and stuff like that, which feels really good, but just kind of knowing before you push back how you're what you expect as far as a taxi out. In a more complex airport like Chicago or somewhere like that, the familiarity is really comforting. I missed that, but I don't see a huge amount of difference as far as air flow and stuff like that, you know, they're pretty much using the same old departures and things. For a little while we could tell that they were a little bit tight on Air Traffic Controllers. We wouldn't change frequencies as often. They were a little bit busier, we felt like ATC felt a little bit understaffed for a while, but it seems to be back to normal at this stage I would say.

Max: One thing that people were also talking about was that a lot of air space capacity issues have just not been a thing because there's so much less demand. Was that the case in your experience?

Pilot TJ: Depends when we're talking about the traveling public came back this summer and every airport in Florida was very, very busy. It was crazy. I mean, when you're used to 1/2 hour taxi and you get out to the runway in three or four minutes, it is unfamiliar and it's surprising. With air traffic control, they also had a couple times like Las Vegas Tower was closed for a couple days, so landing in Vegas without a traffic control tower was spooky. It was strange. It felt like a different world. It was really nice for a while that we had no air traffic delays when traffic was coming back. When you started to be approaching Denver and you're an hour and a half out and they say, hey, listen, you don't have a gate when you land, so don't get here a half hour early 'cause, you're going to be sitting. So yeah, you’re like “Oh wow, they filled up all the gates in Denver, I guess the 4:00 O'clock bank must be busy.” So things like that, that come up and you kind of get back to that normal feeling and you say, ”OK, I guess we're getting back to being close to capacity.” There's advantages and disadvantages of that, so I would say the capacity issues are coming back at this time. I also think that now that we've kind of seen how much more convenient it is, maybe we'll be a little bit smarter in the future about not having more flights scheduled than can be accommodated. I'm hopeful that we're going to be better about that in the future.

Max: I want to go back to something else that you said you were talking about, just not flying as much and, therefore, becoming less familiar with the procedures and the systems. Another thing that was happening a lot during the pandemic was airlines were dropping and adding new routes all over the place to kind of meet up with these spontaneous leisure markets that sprang up. Did you ever have any experiences with flying a new segment or a new route that you were totally unfamiliar with?

Pilot TJ: My company said that they were treating Florida like the whole state was a new hub, so we used to have only flights from our hubs to a lot of leisure destinations and then they were saying, you know, this is where people want to fly and nobody wants to connect, so it only made sense. They're also, they've been looking a little bit more into flying when they know that half of the people are connecting somewhere, if we know half the people are connecting, then let's just go from Portland straight to wherever else. We've started to do that a little bit more recent and I think that it's a great trend. It always takes a little while. They have to try things out before anybody knows it's an option.

Max: Changing gears a little bit and kind of focusing on the passenger experience, from your perspective, what do you think the passenger experience is lacking, and what improvements would you make to the passenger experience if you could?

Pilot TJ: I've seen a couple things that I like. I've seen it before the pandemic, but I think that they were a little bit more determined about it during the pandemic. You know, whenever they're late, there should be free water bottles, there should be free snacks, there should be timely information and things like that. Really, the biggest inconvenience I think right now is just that so many of the shops and restaurants are still closed. I'm not sure why. Maybe they're not offering enough, you know, pay for people to come in and work, but a lot of the stores are still closed and it's very frustrating. My COVID, “Can I keep it?” - Is crews get to park at the terminal right now I can walk in. It's amazing. It saves me 20-30 minutes every time. The airports have done a particularly good job of cleaning all the time. They've always done a good job, they always cleaned at nigh the floors are usually very well maintained. The biggest inconvenience I think, is just that everything that's still not open.

Delia: So let me ask you a question. So what is a positive passenger experience mean to you as a pilot?

Pilot TJ: Well, you obviously have to get where you're going safely for you to have any type of positive experience. Then you want to get there efficiently, right? Nobody likes to be late. You also always want to have clear communication. You know, things come up. Maybe too many bags are in the front, or too many bags are in the back, or, you know we didn’t plan for a certain amount of fuel and then you know weather moved and now we need more fuel, or maybe we had too much fuel. It's always good to communicate, so I would say a passenger who gets somewhere safely, on time, and they know what's happening throughout the flight. If you can have a comfortable ride and you get to where you're going, I think that's fairly positive. I think that you know the bonus is if you felt like people care about your well-being and you feel that they've taken care of you throughout the process, you feel that the gate agent and the flight attendant and everybody else who you do see - that they're grateful to have you there and that they're doing everything that they can for you.

Delia: The pilot always gives their little speech before every flight leaves the gate, and I always thought that that was a really cool touch. Now I have an even greater appreciation, knowing all the in's and outs that pilot’s face. I want to thank you for joining us for this edition of the hold room. It was really nice to have you and to get the perspective of pilots. We really appreciate having you again and we really look forward to seeing and hearing from everybody next time.

Pilot TJ: Delia and Max, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much!

[Outro]

Wendy: Thanks for joining us in The Hold Room for this special podcast series exploring the new passenger experience. You can find more from this series on the ACC Training Hub—that’s training.acconline.org/the-hold-room—or wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple Podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, etc. Follow us for more content from the Airport Consultants Council. You can support this podcast by leaving a rating or review and by telling your friends and colleagues about the podcast. Thanks again.

In the last two years, we’ve seen several new airlines begin service in the U.S., including Avelo Airlines, Breeze Airways, and Aha. But what are the market forces driving this increase in new entrants? How will these new leisure-focused carriers affect airport facilities and the passenger experience? In this episode of The Hold Room, Josh Lemeshow with RS&H chats with Laura and Max about the changing domestic airline landscape and ways to improve the passenger experience.

The Hold Room, Episode 19 (Josh Lemeshow)

Transcript

[Introduction]

TJ: Welcome to The Hold Room with ACC: a quick update on all things relating to airport development as well as the Airport Consultants Council.

Wendy: This episode is part of a New Passenger Experience series hosted by ACC’s Terminal and Facilities Committee. In this series, we are collecting the experiences and perspectives of different types of users of the airport passenger terminal, including: business travelers; leisure travelers; airport executives; airport, airline, TSA, and concessions staff; and airport consultant staff, to name a few. For more information on this series and the hosts, go back and give the first episode a listen to.

Paula: In the last two years, we’ve seen several new airlines begin service in the U.S., including Avelo Airlines, Breeze Airways, and Aha. But what are the market forces driving this increase in new entrants? How will these new leisure-focused carriers affect airport facilities and the passenger experience? In this episode of The Hold Room, Josh Lemeshow with RS&H chats with Laura and Max about the changing domestic airline landscape and ways to improve the passenger experience.

[Interview]

Max: Hi Josh, welcome to The Hold Room. Glad we could have you on today.

Josh: Alright, thank you for having me.

Max: Could you tell us a bit about yourself and your background and what you do on a day-to-day basis?

Josh: Absolutely. So, I am an aviation consultant. I've been in the industry for 15 years. I worked at URS right out of college as an airport architect intern, spent a couple years outside of aviation, I guess just working on non-airport related projects, and then I got involved in Southwest Airlines. I spent five years at Southwest Airlines in customer service, operations, and in-flight. After that, I went to work at AECOM doing airport terminal design in Boston. Then I moved out to Chicago for family and continued working at AECOM at the O'Hare Modernization Project. For those that are unfamiliar, is all of the runway expansion and reorganization that's pretty much wrapped up now. So, I did some time there, and then I worked at Ricondo for over 2 years. And now I'm at RS&H. My primary responsibilities is airport terminal planning. I've been lead planner on several projects. I've been support planning with Buildings Group on a number of other projects. And I'm also in the airline industry—sort of market intelligence analyst—a lot of data-crunching with DOT stats and how on-time performance trends are looking. And that's been very important over the past year and a half as we've been doing a lot of tracking of how the airports have been recovering. As enplanement data comes out, I've been tracking national averages along with pretty much all the airports that we have as clients. So that brings me to today.

Laura: So, from your background, looking at terminal planning, design—having seen what's been going on for the past two years now—how has terminal planning changed as part of this? What do you think has influenced things as they've continued to progress throughout this time, and have you seen any changes at airports that you're excited about?

Josh: That's a great question. So as the pandemic was unfolding, the big topic that was always coming around was how do you implement social distancing into an airport environment? And it was a very complicated topic at the time because no one was traveling. We were down to 10% year-over-year in most cases, so whoever's in the airports now were social distancing anyway. But how would you eventually, when traveling comes back, approach the issue? One of the shocking things that we found was that the space required per passenger based on a 6-foot box, bubble required in almost three to five times increase in every space. Now, normally when you design a project, you create a program, the architects create layouts, and then it goes through the financial element—the cost estimating and how things get value engineered. But if you're going to expand your program three to five times, the cost for that is just almost incomprehensible. So then as time went on and the whole realization of three to five times the space just for queuing—or even the holdrooms, you know the holdrooms are the big thing—but, all right, how do we look at cleanliness? How do we work on heating and ventilation and air conditioning, and what are other ways to give the passengers confidence and a clean environment without expanding a terminal three to five times the size it needed to be? At the time there were very few people traveling, so you could put the stickers down on the floor. You had your 6 feet of space, and it was okay. But as time goes on, you weren't going to have that luxury anymore, and not every airport in the country was going to go through a massive expansion project in order to allow for social distancing. So, we started looking at how to create flows and what the future would be like for air flow and restroom sizing and areas that are more confined. You start to look at the risk—where higher risk areas are—and then go from there. Now, with vaccinations and the trends we're seeing now, it’s less about social distancing now. Airport planning has really gotten back to the formulas and typical planning trends and methods. And now you're starting to see more innovation: more contactless interaction, which you started to see in airports well before the pandemic, like Terminal 5 at JFK. You have the big scrolling marquee in the middle when you come out of security. You go down to the gates and you have tables with iPads where you can order. Now people see that as a way to order and not stand in a line at a concession where you're 3 inches from the person in front or behind you. It's especially interesting where we're seeing staffing issues with concessions, in that this kind of mobile ordering and other methods are short-term helping as traffic starts to really get back to 2019 levels. I think there's a long way to go, but what's been done so far for innovation, I think, is a step in the right direction. Let alone for COVID, it's just exciting to see what the future of the airport terminal’s going to look like.

Max: So, given what you've just described, what are the areas that we still need improvement in?

Josh: Well right now, with staffing levels, the passenger experience is just terrible. Lines are long, TSA is understaffed, concessionaires are understaffed, airplanes are packed. It's not a good environment for passengers to be in. And you're hearing all sorts of stories now of all sorts of chaos erupting in the terminals. People are kind of reaching their limits, with all the stresses of what's going on today, all just culminating, and then you get to the airport. You're waiting an hour to get through security, there's no one manning the concession stand, and then your flight’s 2 hours late—it's a recipe for disaster. And, as a byproduct of what people are experiencing, people are driving more because they want to avoid the hubs. So, in some instances, you're finding airlines that want to do more point to point like Avelo and Breeze, but people are also opting to drive. So, when you compound in delays and everything like what we've experienced all summer, I just might as well get in the car. A 5-hour car ride, 6-hour car ride, you know, now is under more heavy consideration. And that's a big problem. A lot of small-town airports that relied on those hub connections are seeing traffic not rebound as quickly, as people are opting to just drive. So, what would be good for the passenger experience is building an environment that is more welcoming. And I know that's such a generic term to say, and you can answer this question for hours. But, you know, what does that mean? And that means that you can walk down a concourse and not have people piling out from the holdrooms waiting to board. It means having quiet spaces. You know, people look for certain things in their terminal. They want a place to relax, they want a place to grab a bite to eat, they want a place to put their bag down for a few minutes. And I think what you've seen is a lot of people gravitate towards airline lounges because you can get that. You can go in a quiet space, you can have a place to make a phone call, you can have a place to just unwind where you're not in a cramped holdroom, you're not in a cramped food court.

Laura: Yeah, and actually that's interesting. When you were speaking, I was envisioning a terminal of serenity—of just, like, peacefulness—and I know that's really hard to come by these days with everything that you said: understaffing, long lines, people already at a heightened level of anxiety; and so that can escalate very quickly. And trying to create environments that are, like you said, quiet. What can we do to make things quieter? Can we put in carpeting? Can we put in the eggshelled walls and kind of hide them between things just to reduce the noise level? I know we've heard at other airports, sometimes artwork and plants and indoor green areas to create that peace within people or help reduce some of those levels. And everything that you've been saying is what I think people look forward to for travel rather than what they're experiencing in certain areas.

Josh: An example comes to mind. At Logan Airport in Boston, they would just have these rocking chairs scattered throughout the terminals everywhere. And they were by windows, they were in public corridors, they were on the secure side. At a point, they got a bunch of, I think, local schools to come and do artwork on them. So, there were baseball-themed chairs, football-themed chairs, history themed. And as simple as it sounds, it was kind of nice to just walk down a corridor, you can sit in a rocking chair, and just relax. I mentioned T5 at JFK. At the very end of the main concourse, there's a glass window wall that sort of faces the intersection of 13L left and the 4’s. There they put a bunch of bean bag chairs and a bunch of cool lounge seating. And it's not really in the boarding area of a gate, but it's just a great place to go and chill, watch planes, relax, lounge out. Not everyone’s on top of each other. Even in cramped hubs like O'Hare, they have the connector between Terminal 1 and Terminal 2. It has some cool lights, some cool stuff hanging down, and it has some chairs, some seating. But then when you go back into Terminal 1, it's the hustle and bustle of Terminal 1. And then you go into Terminal 2, it's the hustle and bustle of Terminal 2. So, you find these little nooks and crannies around, but you can really accomplish something cool with something almost very simple. So even in existing buildings, there are little things you can do that can go a long way.

Laura: So, I wanted to go back to something that you said about the changing airline system and an opportunity for airlines like Breeze and Avelo doing more of a point-to-point. Do you think that will change the passenger experience, given that now you don't have to take two or three flights to get somewhere, you might be able to go straight shot? Do you think that changes how people view travel and people experience travel?

Josh: I do. I think if your markets are served, I think it definitely helps. The general public has sort of accepted the hub and spoke system, and it's just a necessary evil: I live in a small town, I'm going to have to go through a hub and that's just how it's gonna be. But now, with COVID anxiety and everything kind of reaching a boiling point, these opportunities are coming along. And it's not everywhere. I mean, you know, Breeze’s network is tiny; Avelo’s network is tiny; and even the new airline Aha, also known as ExpressJet, their network is tiny as well. What has also made the point-to-point very popular is that the leisure has sort of been the number one driver of demand. After everything tanked in April 2020, Allegiant was racing back with a vengeance in their traffic, and it was all leisure: people wanting to get out of the house and go to a leisure destination. But they've always excelled in the point-to-point; they don't send people through hubs, they do O&D. And that's what Breeze sort of took the model, Aha’s taken the model, and Avelo’s taken the model. And people seem to like that. The airline industry, it's a very complicated thing, so if you have loyalty, you know, you're gonna go through the hub, get your miles. And if the fare is right, people like to choose with their wallets, oftentimes. So, while someone in the New York/Connecticut area, it may be direct to go from New Haven down to Florida on Avelo, what's to stop JetBlue or anybody else offering a similar service out of LaGuardia or even White Plains for less. And is that enough to attract somebody? It's gonna be very interesting to see how that plays out. I'm excited to see it, you know, competition is great, so bring it on, I say, let's go. Grab the popcorn and let's see.

Max: It's kind of interesting—people talk a lot about how the pandemic kind of accelerated trends that were already underway: self-service check-in and ordering concessions through an app or a tablet instead of face-to-face. It seems like the point-to-point market is actually something similar to that, because, you know, Breeze and Avelo had planned to launch before the pandemic even happened, and then the pandemic hit, and suddenly people were shifting to a lot more leisure travel. And so that kind of worked really rather fortuitously for these new entrants into the market.

Josh: Yeah, absolutely. What was good for Avelo and Breeze was that, as you mentioned, they were planning well before the pandemic happened, in that their business model was more based toward leisure-based travel. Well before the pandemic, you saw incredible growth from Spirit, Frontier, and Allegiant, where they were entering into markets that they never used to serve because they found markets available. They were low ticket prices, and they acquired larger and larger airplanes to keep their costs low. And what you saw were the legacy carriers start to respond by offering your basic economy fares. So you were starting to see a shift to kind of match the ultra-low-cost model without becoming ultra-low-cost—so you had to pay for your bags, on some of the carriers you couldn't select your seat until you checked in, and you were only allowed a backpack to carry on—so some of the rules that the ultra-low-cost carriers sort of play by and where they get their ancillary revenue from were starting to be adopted in other areas as well. It was very interesting to see how quickly the leisure market took off after the pandemic started. As a result from that, you look at all the markets that were created. You know, you look at airports like Glacier Park and Bozeman. Even airports like Redmond and Missoula. All these airports that are up in Montana, and Idaho, and Oregon, and Washington state. They start getting very, very popular to the point that airport projects that were done years ago to accommodate their growth, all of a sudden, all their numbers were busted because they were getting passenger loads that they were nowhere prepared for. Targets that were set for the mid-2030s are going to be met in the late 2020s now—if things continue, you know. It's hard to say whether a lot of these markets will be sustained once international travel returns. I don't know, it's hard to say, but it's been amazing what markets have been opened due to the leisure market.

Max: Yeah, that is something that is an interesting characteristic about ultra-low-cost carriers. They have a tendency to enter and exit markets pretty quickly and freely, in a way. That can have its positive and its negatives. It makes all these new markets accessible to people, especially with the lower fares. But at the same time, you may have a degree of disinvestment with the airports themselves. Is the airline going to commit to this facility? Are they going to put up any money to help fund this terminal that they're going to need to accommodate their demand? That's hard to think that long into the future when you have a business model that operates that way.

Josh: Absolutely. With many low-cost carriers, they try to use common-use facilities, and they'll use boarding ramps instead of bridges. So, their level of investment in the airport is low, and that's just part of their business model. So, what you've seen, and you will continue to see, is that if a market doesn't work, they'll pull right out. It's just common business sense for them. There's no benefit staying in a market if it's not making money for you, and especially when you're really trying to keep costs low, you don't want to be in there any longer than you absolutely need to be.

Max: So, many of the listeners of this podcast are airport planning and design professionals, and as we were talking about ultra-low-cost carriers and that they enter and exit markets very quickly, how do we design our facilities in ways that are best suited to serve those ultra-low-cost carriers that both make travel more accessible but also have essentially a high risk of over-investment in facilities?

Josh: That is a really great question. It's really tough to say when you are planning a new facility because those take years to plan, design, and airlines aren't typically going to commit that far out in advance. But it's also not a case of, “if you build it, they will come,” because you have no idea. What it seems is that the airports that ultra-low-cost carriers are trialing—a market where they think is gonna be new, and they're going to try to build up—has an existing facility. What you've seen in airports that they end up becoming popular with is that they will eventually build a facility to cater to it. But I don't think an airport is going to take on the risk of going through the process of building a new terminal if ultra-low-cost carriers are just going to be trialing it out. I'm not saying this is the answer, but there are examples out there of temporary structures being built to handle increase in demand on sort of a short-term basis. Durango in Colorado is an example where they have a tent—it's a fixed tent, you know, pretty big—with HVAC and concessions in it that that serves some of their flights. Sonoma County (STS airport)—the Snoopy airport, Charles Schultz—they're expanding their terminal, because over the years, it's gotten so popular that they've built a standalone tent with security, with restrooms, and everything in order to have the ability to expand the terminal building. It's a relatively low-risk investment for something that you're trying it out. So, at existing airports, my guess is if you cannot use the existing facility that they currently have, then you can add on a low-risk structure, whatever that may be, and then work from there.

Laura: That's very interesting that you should say that, because I feel like that is what's happening with Avelo at Tweed New Haven: trying to figure out what the balance is between the existing facility modifications that can be made, and what the potential future needs are; you know, the balance of the risk. And I like the way that you phrased the ultra-low-cost carrier “trials”, because in some cases they really do blossom, and in some cases it's a very temporary thing, and you won't know until you're in it.

Josh: New Haven's interesting because the airport is small, and Avelo started with 737-800s, and they acquired the -700 because it can perform better out of that airport. What's interesting that American Eagle has dropped New Haven, so I think Avelo’s the sole operator at New Haven, which is a great opportunity for them. If it ends up being successful, then they can invest in the facility that suits their needs. So, the airport presents challenges operationally, but these airlines know what they're doing, so you know, we'll see. We'll see how New Haven turns out for them.

Max: I'm glad you mentioned Santa Rosa as well. I actually flew on Avelo’s first flight out of there, and that was my first time at that airport, and it was such a bizarre experience to go into the terminal building, and then exit the building, and then go through another building, and then exit that building, and then go into the Sprung structure where they have the security screening checkpoint and the holdrooms. But yeah, you can add these temporary facilities that may work for the “trial” periods, and then ultimately, if they do stick around, then we can make some later decisions about do we want to invest in a more permanent facility.

Josh: So, another point is that if an ultra-low-cost carrier comes in and is successful in the market, it may attract other players. Then it's the game of competition: they win over the other passengers, then the other carrier may go out, but there's interest. And is there a real business case to build the terminal anyway? We see that there is potential, so we're going to do it.

Laura: So, from your experience in the airline industry and customer service, in flight experience, all of that, are there any particular passenger concerns that stand out to you that you think design professionals would benefit from understanding better?

Josh: Personal space. And it's getting worse the more dense the aircraft layouts become. As airplanes get bigger, they jam more seats in. We now have A321s that are capable of seating 230 people. It's a big plane, but it's a narrow body. It's a tight space, and it works for some airlines. But one of the many things that is really irritating people is the lack of space, and I think it's always been an issue. COVID really made it an issue, but people want space, and you see that in the airport with contactless ordering and other areas for people to retreat to. It's not good when you're walking through the airport, it's after a thunderstorm, or it's during a snowstorm, flights are piling up, and it seems like people are hanging out of the rafters—they're just everywhere. Nobody has personal space, people are sitting up against the moving walkways, everyone’s in search of a power outlet. So, personal space is really something that should be focused on. I'm not saying you need 36 square feet, or 50 square feet, or 100 square feet, but just providing opportunities for exploration away from a cramped holdroom or busy concession hall would go a long way. That's where the clever planning and design comes in, is that while cost of a project is very important, trying to factor in elements like this that are passenger-friendly will be helpful. If it's at a hub airport, people may choose to connect through that airport because it's a nicer airport to connect to, and I have two hours between flights, okay, like, I don't mind doing that here. But other airports people may avoid just because it's too tight, it's cramped, I don't like being there for any length of time. But it also goes towards the hub and spoke airports. You know, how do you prevent your passenger from driving to the hub? Is that making your terminal a more adventurous environment, whatever that means? So many possibilities.

Laura: Josh, thank you so much for joining us in The Hold Room and the conversation today. This has been an incredible conversation, and we're very excited that you were here for us to answer all of our questions.

Josh: Thank you for having me; this was a lot of fun.

[Outro]

Wendy: Thanks for joining us in The Hold Room for this special podcast series exploring the new passenger experience. You can find more from this series on the ACC Training Hub—that’s training.acconline.org/the-hold-room—or wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple Podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, etc. Follow us for more content from the Airport Consultants Council. You can support this podcast by leaving a rating or review and by telling your friends and colleagues about the podcast. Thanks again.

As a pilot with a large US carrier, Fran shares her experience of what it was like flying during the shutdown and once passengers started flying again. Please join us to hear about the pilot’s perspective of 2020.

The Hold Room, Episode 18

Transcript

[Introduction]

TJ: Welcome to The Hold Room with ACC: a quick update on all things relating to airport development as well as the Airport Consultants Council.

Wendy: This episode is part of a New Passenger Experience series hosted by ACC’s Terminal and Facilities Committee. In this series, we are collecting the experiences and perspectives of different types of users of the airport passenger terminal, including: business travelers; leisure travelers; airport executives; airport, airline, TSA, and concessions staff; and airport consultant staff, to name a few. For more information on this series and the hosts, go back and give the first episode a listen to.

Wendy: Fran is in The Hold Room this week with Laura and Max. Listen to what Fran has to say as a pilot of a major airline regarding traveling during the pandemic and the outlook for the years ahead.

[Interview]

Max: Welcome back to the Hold Room. Today we have the pilot with a major US airline. Welcome to the podcast.

Fran: Hi, thanks for having me.

Max: We're very happy to have you. I think just to get started, could you tell us a little bit about yourself and how long you've been in the industry?

Fran: I have been in the industry for about 20 years and I do work for one of the major US airlines. I was laid off for about 7 years of that, so my experience, you know, is a little less than 20, but currently I fly international widebody, but I've spent a lot of time here in the domestic market too in the US, so I'm flying every week.

Max: Glad to have you taking us through the skies safely. How has the pandemic affected you, either in your job, or if you've been able to travel on your own?

Fran: I think the airline industry has really experienced one of the greatest effects of COVID. I know this is no surprise to everyone, but we air travel shut down significantly like I think we had lost 90% of the air travel. So what that meant for me was we were flying less lots of flights were cancelled. Luckily, we didn't laid off, but there was a lot of uncertainty among the employee groups in the airline industry. And it really has changed the flying that we've done. Speaking just from the international side at all last year was flying cargo flights. We are a passenger carrier, but because passengers weren't allowed into many of the destinations we served, they would just send 3 pilots and a plane full of cargo, and that was, to my knowledge, the first time that we had done anything like that and and all of the major US airlines were doing that, so it's kind of an interesting.

Max: How was the experience flying cargo as opposed to other humans? Was that anything different or did it feel any different to you?

Fran: It did feel different to us because we would not take flight attendants with us. We were operating out of cargo locations, remote locations on the airport and it would just be the three pilots on board. So we were able to leave the door open. It was a little more relaxed as far as flight deck versus cabin security. Just because there was no one else on the plane, so it was interesting, I I learned a lot. Actually, it was very interesting to see all those international airports that were completely empty. I mean sad, but it was the side of the industry I had not seen before.

Laura: So have you transitioned back to passengers and or?

Fran: Yes.

Laura: OK good! And how does passenger flying change in the last year and a half?

Fran: Well, I think. Now that we're starting to see the uptick of passenger flying, and in fact I would say like the last three months flights have been not just full, but over full, like there are folks waiting to get on every flight. But I think the biggest thing would be masking to be honest, which we mask all the time, especially when we're in public view. And any time we're in uniform, we are in masks, and then we we also wear masks behind the door if the crew chooses to do so. I would say the masking is probably the biggest change I know we've. I think this is across the board that they've stopped serving alcohol flights, but I haven't seen, I know there's a lot of media coverage about misbehaving passengers, but I fly a lot as a passenger because I don't live where I where I work, so I have to go back and forth to work in the back. And honestly, I feel like it's a little more cordial back there to be honest. I feel like people are a little more polite, a little more quiet and so that's kind of been an interesting observation. My experience has not been what I have seen or read in the papers.

Max: Yeah, there's definitely a availability bias. You know, the media will certainly inflate those kind of extreme stories when that is absolutely not the norm. Most of the time people are just trying to get to where they need to go, and they're trying to do their best to comply with the rules as best they can. But occasionally you do get those people, but it's you know. It's a good thing that they're certainly in the minority. And that you haven't experienced them yourself.

Fran: I agree, I mean it's going to be in that it's newsworthy. It is so I totally get that. Mostly, I have been pleasantly surprised by how pleasant passenger travel has been everyone just trying to get where they want to go safely. So everybody gets it, and it's been pretty relaxed as far as I've seen.

Laura: That's wonderful, yeah, it was actually going to be one of my follow up questions is, you know, have you seen any changes in behavior and so it's good to hear that the experience that you've had has not been quite what the media has put out or emphasized for that matter. Do you know? I mean, if the no alcohol policy was that in place because of some of the behavior that fashion passengers have exuded.

Fran: I think so, but I honestly don't know that for sure, but I would assume that's what's behind it, and in fact, like the one time that I can remember, I did have a I mean issue is too strong of a word. You know, I was sitting next to someone that was not having a good time. Let's just put it that way and it was definitely because that individual was pounding drinks from the second we got on board. This is a while ago, so it can you know it happens.

Laura: Yeah, so are there any changes at airports that you've seen that have excited you throughout this process? Or after now that passengers are coming back?

Fran: What it seems to me is that airports did a good job of finding the silver lining in the slow down of travel, because I feel like as I travel now around that airports have made their like infrastructure improvements. During this time off, like I've seen improvements to restrooms, to... Well, for instance DCA. I know they have a new terminal and I think they're ahead of schedule. I mean, don't quote me on that, but I think they had a schedule with that so and I've seen that around airports I think saw an opportunity to get some infrastructure work done and they have moved forward on that. So that's kind of nice to see. It's usually that's a real mess when you have full airports and then they're closing off 3 bathrooms in a row and then you know everybody like trying to hike down and it can be problematic. I think that was a smart move for airports to take advantage of that.

Max: Yeah, it's definitely a lot easier to maintain continuity of operations when you don't have people moving in and out of a restroom constantly. This is actually something that we've talked to a lot of our other podcast guests about, you know. Have they been able to accelerate some of their capital projects mostly are, you know, we've been talking to our airport guests about the about that and some of them have said that some of the projects have been able to get accelerated. You mentioned DCA. I think you're right. I think they did complete ahead of schedule. But some other people that we've had on the podcast have said that they weren't able to accelerate anything, and the reason is because of the drop in funding that came in from decreased passive flows. It's I think it's like if you have your funding already in place for projects, then yeah, you can go ahead and accelerate it because you don't have to worry about, you know how we're going to accommodate all these people, but if it's a project you're trying to start from scratch or a project that you don't have all the funding for. I think it seems to be that those are harder to kind of accelerate in light of the pandemic.

Fran: And that makes perfect sense.

Max: If you could make one suggestion for improving the past your experience, what would it be?

Fran: I think. Having been in many many, many airports in the last 20 years. Have a nice restroom. I feel that and granted, I probably take the airline part out of it because, you know that's a constant for me, but I just think if you have nice restrooms it makes your day and everybody uses the restroom. Right, so I'm going to put this out there when I have the chance doors open out on the stalls, open the doors out because it is so hard when you're dragging luggage or kids or whatever to get into that little teeny tiny stall when the door opens inside. So, and I feel like that's something everybody could do a little bit. So that's what I would say, nice bathrooms please.

Laura: That's awesome, I know an airport manager and every time she goes to a new airport, the first thing she does is she looks at the bathrooms and more likely than not one of the first projects is to update the bathrooms for exactly that reason. People judge airports by something that we all visit, so I'm glad you said that. That's awesome.

Fran: I have seen some really cool things recently coming in. There's one they have now put lights, an individual light above every stall that's either red or green, so you never have to wonder or looked under the floor and see if there's feet, so that's awesome. And then a lot of places are putting these really flat sinks. You know they have an individual no touch faucet and then soap, and then the hand dryer right there. And it's like this long trough sink. I love it. Good job guys. Keep it up. But the doors opening out this is. So huge this is so huge.

Laura: I agree. I have two children. And even before kids like just yeah, there is barely enough room when you open the door between where you need to go. It's just a carry on and you're still struggling so hard.

Fran: Oh yeah.

Laura: I love that. We’ll definitely want to share that information! Door is open outward.

Fran: Out.

Laura: Oh great, so in general, what does a positive passenger experience mean for you?

Fran: I would say a positive passenger experience for me as a pilot would be getting you safely to your destination, and in the bigger picture hopefully you'll come back and fly our airline again, and I know there's a lot that goes into it. It's not just. It's the plane, it's the other passengers. It's the employees of the airline. It's the airport you're in, it's the bathrooms. It's all of you know those experiences make it, but and it's something so little that could make someone have a negative experience. And it feels like we have to work very hard to try to have positive experiences. So I would say getting people there safely is kind of where I'm going. That's my primary mission, but we try to smile along the way and see if that helps.

Laura: I love that. I mean the smile can make such a big difference. And even with masks on now, you can tell when somebody has a positive demeanor about them, which is nice to be able to see. I always feel like any time I travel and you can tell that the crew is having a good time, it makes it so much better for everyone around you, because even if you're having a bad day that is going to perk you up and that's going to make the experience better, even if it's just the normal snacks or no snacks kind of flight, right? It, just it helps it.

Fran: Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I agree. I always try to do if I'm sitting in the back, which as I mentioned to do a lot if I'm in uniform 100%, you know, I'm always trying to be an ambassador and answer questions people, ask questions and answer the questions. Always look happy because there's a lot of people that are afraid to fly, so they're looking right at you. Anytime they hear a noise or go through a little bit of chop or something. Hopefully we can all do our part.

Laura: Thank you so much for joining us in the Hold Room. We've had a wonderful conversation and we're so glad that you could be with us today.

Fran: Thank you. I really enjoyed talking with you and hope to see you at the airport sometime.

[Outro]

Wendy: Thanks for joining us in The Hold Room for this special podcast series exploring the new passenger experience. You can find more from this series on the ACC Training Hub—that’s training.acconline.org/the-hold-room—or wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple Podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, etc. Follow us for more content from the Airport Consultants Council. You can support this podcast by leaving a rating or review and by telling your friends and colleagues about the podcast. Thanks again.

As chairperson of MSP’s Travelers with Disabilities Advisory Committee (TDAC), Andrew shares examples of technologies and changes that have provided more equitable access in terminals. He recounts insights and perspectives as the TDAC continues to be involved at MSP and from personal experiences at other airports. Special thanks to Sara Miller for serving as an interpreter for this episode of The Hold Room!

The Hold Room, Episode 17

Transcript

[Introduction]

TJ: Welcome to The Hold Room with ACC: a quick update on all things relating to airport development as well as the Airport Consultants Council.

Wendy: This episode is part of a New Passenger Experience series hosted by ACC’s Terminal and Facilities Committee. In this series, we are collecting the experiences and perspectives of different types of users of the airport passenger terminal, including: business travelers; leisure travelers; airport executives; airport, airline, TSA, and concessions staff; and airport consultant staff, to name a few. For more information on this series and the hosts, go back and give the first episode a listen to.

Wendy: Andrew Palmberg with TDAC is in The Hold Room today having a discussion with Max and Neil. Please join us in listening to the challenges disabled people encounter in airports.

[Interview]

Max: Well, welcome to The Hold Room, everyone. We’re very excited to have Andrew Palmberg here with us. Andrew Palmberg is a member of the Travelers with Disabilities Advisory Committee at Minneapolis-Saint Paul International Airport. Andrew Palmberg is deaf, and he is accompanied by his interpreter, Sara Miller, today. So, Andrew, welcome to the podcast.

Andrew: Thank you. I’m excited to be here today.

Max: So, before we get started, could you tell us a bit about what you do in your role?

Andrew: Sure. So, I’m the current chairperson of the committee that’s located out of the Minneapolis-Saint Paul Airport. It’s Travelers with Disabilities Advisory Committee. We as a committee meet once a quarter for the purpose of discussing accessibility and how to be more equitable at the airport for any user of the airport services. On the airport committee is a number of us, but I also represent the Minnesota Deaf, Blind, and Hard of Hearing Commission.

Max: Great, thank you very much. How has the pandemic affected you, either in your job or in your travel experience?

Andrew: One of the obvious barriers to traveling experiences is the masks that everyone is wearing, as it relates to communication, specifically for me as a deaf person and for hard of hearing people as well who rely on lip reading. So, of course, with the pandemic, and everyone is wearing masks, it cuts me off from being able to truly understand other people as they are talking to me. So one of the ways that the Minneapolis and Saint Paul Airport has helped navigate that, there was a local Minnesota company that developed a clear mask that was made available for the volunteers and people at the booths or passengers in the airport to grab and use. And so that was really helpful to have a mask like that available. So with COVID, the travel experience really improved for me as a deaf person because with COVID, people are interacting less with folks in general. So as a result of that, many things that formerly we would have to interact with human beings to get are now available online more readily. Like there are apps that we can use to get what we need, services we need. So just as an example, if I wanted to order food, before, I might have to go to a fast food restaurant, order very awkwardly at a window. But with COVID now, almost everything—fast foot included—they have their own apps that are very mobile-friendly, and so I can just make my order ahead of time, and I don’t have to interact or deal with that awkwardness that I would often experience. Also, don’t have to wait in line to pick up food. So that has been a good thing. There are fewer misunderstandings between me and whoever it is. So I have heard that from other deaf individuals or hard of hearing individuals, where historically, our orders, our food comes out wrong; that’s not necessarily the case any longer because of the different apps, tools. But with the app, I can order it just the way that I like it, and send it, and pick it up, and there it is. Also, as it relates to the airport specifically in Minneapolis and Saint Paul, I know that they have an online service—the app is called At Your Gate—where you can order from any of the restaurants that are available in the airport, and they have a mobile device that has wheels and it will basically roam and deliver to wherever it is to where you are, which is fantastic.

Max: Awesome. Thank you very much for the thorough response, you know, with respect to the impact that the masks can have on the ability to communicate or the ability to not communicate with people. The clear masks is a super interesting innovation.

Andrew: Wearing a clear mask isn’t going to be a solution for every person. Think of it more of like an assistant. Even for me as a deaf person, or a hard of hearing person, there are still misunderstandings that can occur. It’s just one tool that has come about to help with communication or try to mitigate misunderstandings.

Max: Right. That just helps with the lip-reading.

Andrew: At Minneapolis and Saint Paul’s airport, they installed a hearing loop system in the general airport. For those of you who don’t know what that may be, a hearing loop system is a charged wire, and it’s connected to the microphone or PA system. So, when a person is speaking into a microphone or the PA, that signal is sent directly to the wire that’s usually under the floor or the carpeting. Sometimes it’s also installed in ceilings. But for individuals who are wearing assistive listening devices—so that could be a hearing aid or a cochlear implant—there’s a T-coil that is a direct receiver of that information. So the microphone feed goes right into the ear of the person who has that technology. So, I hope if there are other planners of airport development listening to this podcast, please keep that as a consideration: hearing loop systems. You can go area by area, so if you are planning a renovation at your airport, please keep a hearing loop in mind. Very helpful for people who have hearing loss.

Neil: Andrew, you mentioned that TDAC meets every quarter. I assume those meetings continued through COVID?

Andrew: Yes, we did meet during COVID. We did it remotely, of course. Before COVID, when we met in person, those meetings typically lasted three hours, included a lunch break. At the beginning of COVID, we did have to cancel one. We knew that it’s going to be here for the long term, so we have decided to transition all of our meetings to remote. And the online meetings, sometimes there are barriers because if we have participants watching a computer screen, of course, there’s eye fatigue. So, we had decided to hold those meetings for up to an hour max for those reasons. And that so far has been going well. While the attendance was still higher when we were meeting in person, it makes it easier for certain individuals to participate that might not have been able to historically because of their disabilities. So, sometimes individuals with wheelchairs—or other folks can’t get off of work, for example—they are still able to attend and participate online because it’s easier. And most of us are working from home, and it’s easy to just have it open. So, we’ve actually seen our attendance numbers stay quite high, which is really nice. So yes, we do continue to meet. And I was going to say TDAC, the committee, is all volunteers. All of us are volunteering our time. So, I’m amazed constantly at how faithful our attenders are, whether we were in-person or online. And that just demonstrates, I feel, that people with disabilities really do want to see some improvements in the community at large. All of us are volunteering our time to do it, so we’re all invested.

Neil: That’s great. Do you have any observations about how the topics of those meetings might have changed as a product of COVID?

Andrew: Yeah, sure. Some of the topics have changed. Before COVID, we would typically be talking about improvements in the airport. Physical improvements, maybe restaurants that need some accommodations or updates, especially with how many people were traveling and the diverse population that the airport serves. Since COVID, as everyone knows, there’s been a significant drop in travelers. So, we’re focusing less on the interior of the airport and accessibility issues, but more so how to integrate more technology features in the airport. I have to say, I’m thrilled with how much technology has come along for the ride. The amount of in-person interaction was highly needed in order to make your way through the airport. And now you can use technology to get around—apps, communication devices—just to get from the curb to the gate is great. So, we’re thinking more that way on how to utilize technology for the travelers’ experience. Certainly, it’s on our radar to make the airport itself more accessible, but the “how” has changed since COVID. At the same time, the airport has taken advantage of fewer travelers on-site to improve their capacity and accessibility. I know that there are plans—there were plans—to have a nursing mothers’ room in the airport. One of the issues that came up with a nursing mothers’ room was that the door itself needed to have a lock for privacy. However, security didn’t like that idea; they wouldn’t want someone to just hole up in there and be in there for who knows how long. So, the airport had some time now to think about and come up with different solutions to give access to the room and also make security happy. So TDAC (the committee), we were taking a look at it from the perspective of a person with a disability. And they had asked us, “Well, how would a person with a disability gain access to the room?” So, their first idea was, “Well, someone could use a phone. They could request access through their phone.” The airport wants to be able to communicate with the person who’s requesting access just to make sure or verify that they’re using the room for the right reasons. So, there were going to be questions asked of the requester or user. We have a couple of hard of hearing individuals on the committee that came back and said, “What about a person who is deaf?” Maybe they wouldn’t be able to understand or interact with these questions in the way that the airport was expecting. And so, the airport decided to go ahead with a TTY device which converts phone signals into written text. So, it’s a visual message. So then, the deaf person would interact on the TTY and type back the response. So that was one way that the airport adapted their plan, or the issues they were planning to address with fewer travelers, and one way that we got involved.

Neil: That’s awesome. You mentioned there that I’m definitely seeing a common sense in a lot of the improvements that you’re seeing that they’re very much grounded in technology improvements that affects all passengers’ interactions with the airport. Giving people more information and easing anxieties is a boon for every passenger through the airport.

Andrew: I agree with that, and in the disability community specifically, we call that the “curb cut effect”. Because on the streets—you’re aware what a curb cut is. So, for anybody who’s walking or enjoying a sidewalk, originally the purpose of curb cuts was for mothers who were using a stroller so that a stroller could traverse onto the road and up onto the next sidewalk section. That was the planned intent. But of course, it has benefitted people with disabilities who may use a wheelchair. It has benefitted individuals who are blind or have a visual impairment; if they’re using a cane, they can sense where the terrain changes. So, it benefitted more widely people than what was originally intended. So, that’s the curb cut effect. Yes, there are broad implications for the public at large when you consider the disability community.

Neil: Thank you. I had no idea that concept had such a name, so I’m sure many of our listeners appreciate that.

Max: It gets to the principle that measures that are designed to improve accessibility benefit everybody, largely.

Andrew: Exactly. When you have accessibility as your view, or your starting place, everyone wins.

Neil: Clearly, technology is paving the way for a lot of improved accessibility. As a member of the committee that is championing the improvements for people with disabilities, how does the committee—and I guess on a personal level—how do you keep up with technologies in order to be able to present them to the committee and get that into the mind think of the group?

Andrew: So, from a hearing person’s perspective, I totally understand your question. From a disability person’s perspective, people with disabilities often use tech to communicate just in our lives. We were probably one of the first communities using technology that way. Now that technology has improved on smart devices, people in the disability community are often the first ones to “discover” new things, new apps, or how to manipulate this app to do this task over here before hearing people do.

Max: If you could make one suggestion for improving the passenger experience, what would it be? You had already mentioned the loop system for future terminals, but what about for existing facilities?

Andrew: To have a TDAC—or something similar—committee at your airport. Your own people are your best resource to take a look at your facilities, and you would want to talk to people who are in your area, who will live there, who breathe the air that you do. Your own disability community is your best resource in terms of looking at improvements for your airport. There’s not going to be a one-size-fits-all solution with accessibility issues, so talk to your community members. Set up a committee like we have. Ask questions. Bring them the different topics that you’re considering.

Neil: What does a positive passenger experience mean to you?

Andrew: Positive passenger experience for me would mean that the passenger can navigate the airport from curbside to gate without any barriers, or obstacles, or frustrations. One of our committee members, he is a person who is blind, and he uses a guide dog to assist him and navigate the spaces he’s in, and the guide dog helps him get around any of the physical obstacles in the terminal. While we were meeting in-person, we used a conference room that was a part of the secure area of the airport, so we would all gather in the non-secure area first to make sure we were all together, and then we would travel as a group to the secure area where the conference room was located. And Ken would usually additionally have a person guiding him. So, Ken would travel with us with one of his hands on our shoulder or our elbow. So that we would travel together, one of us would walk in front of him and he would travel next to us. One technology that has come out pretty recently, right before COVID, was Aira (A-I-R-A). It’s a technology that’s available to individuals with vision loss or a blind person. So Aira is a wayfinding app. So, Ken uses glasses that have a camera embedded on the glasses. So, the person who’s wearing the glasses is getting input about their surrounding that someone with normal sight would be able to see. So, it goes to, like, a screen—and really it can be transported anywhere, the information is transported anywhere—but it’s basically telling the blind person what is in their environment. So, it helps them to navigate wherever it is that they’re going without, you know, hitting any objects or whatever. So, Ken was using that technology for the first time right before COVID, and he was able to navigate from the curbside all the way to the secure area to the conference room where we were holding our meeting without anyone having to help him get there. And he was able to be completely independent because of the technology, and he said that that feeling was liberating. As a person who is blind, he knows that people are helpful and certainly have guided him places before, but he doesn’t always want to have to rely on someone else. And that is a feeling that people with disabilities often experience: we don’t have to “rely”—even though people are very willing and people have good intentions. At the same time, just like most humans, we want to be independent and on our own. So, to see him experience that, and for him to feel that, was a feeling that he hasn’t had in his entire life. So that technology was a game changer. And now it’s something he utilizes every day—not just in an airport, but just the grocery store, to get to work on his own. He can ride a bus without assistance and get around, and just so many different uses for something like that. And so that’s one way I would love to see any and all passenger experiences improve, is just be able to navigate on their own from curbside to gate without objects in their way, barriers, or frustrations.

Neil: How excited are you about the prospects of augmented reality and how that could help your community when you’re traveling through an airport or just the world at large?

Andrew: So, it depends on how it’s being used. That would be my disclaimer. And the reason I say that is because you may have seen some news articles, even, about these gloves that can translate sign language, for example, into the spoken word. So, from the deaf perspective, or even from a disability perspective, it feels like the hearing world is forcing us to accommodate to make hearing people’s lives easier. And so then hearing people don’t have to learn sign language; they don’t have to learn to make accommodations for us, for the world that we live in. It may make communication easier, but if you want to accommodate us, then I would say learn some signs. Communicate with us using our native and natural language. Sign language is completely different than spoken English. Most deaf people do have some issues with English because the English of American Sign Language is completely different. The syntax, the grammar structure, is different than English. Actually, have you seen the movie Star Wars? You know how Yoda talks, right? So, the way he talks is actually a pretty good representation of how American Sign Language is; the grammar and the syntax looks like how Yoda talks. Of augmented reality or AI, if it helps hearing people accommodate my community, I’m all for it, instead of it forcing me or my community to adapt to the hearing world. So, I’ve also heard of this concept of glasses that I could wear, and when a person approaches me and starts talking at me—which happens all the time—then the text appears in the glasses. So that might be something really helpful and awesome for a hard of hearing person. What might be even cooler is if it was connected to a sign language interpreting service. We already have that interpreting service connected, so if a deaf person makes a phone call and I call you. But man, would that be cool if there were glasses I could wear, and I’m wherever I am, someone comes up to me and starts talking at me, and boom, there’s an interpreter in the glasses. And then I can interact with that person and know what they’re saying and connect. That would be a really cool way that the hearing world could meet me in my world. That’s a little bit of a tricky question; I hope I answered it clearly enough.

Neil: Wonderful, thank you very much.

Max: Andrew, thank you very much for your participation. And thank you, Sara for being the liaison. This has been an incredibly informative interview.

Andrew: You’re welcome, and I really appreciated being here sharing my experiences as a committee member and my personal experiences. Thanks for having me, and I’m hoping that your listeners also enjoyed it.

[Outro]

Wendy: Thanks for joining us in The Hold Room for this special podcast series exploring the new passenger experience. You can find more from this series on the ACC Training Hub—that’s training.acconline.org/the-hold-room—or wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple Podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, etc. Follow us for more content from the Airport Consultants Council. You can support this podcast by leaving a rating or review and by telling your friends and colleagues about the podcast. Thanks again.

Enter The Hold Room for episode 16 with Roddy Bogus Vice President of Aviation at RS&H as he speaks with Delia Chi and Neil Chatwood about the differences in the passenger experience for Baby Boomers versus Millennials during the pandemic and in general. Listen to this episode to learn about emerging technologies to streamline the passenger experience and how customer service is changing due to passenger behavior.

The Hold Room, Episode 16

Transcript

[Introduction]

TJ: Welcome to The Hold Room with ACC: a quick update on all things relating to airport development as well as the Airport Consultants Council.

Wendy: This episode is part of a New Passenger Experience series hosted by ACC’s Terminal and Facilities Committee. In this series, we are collecting the experiences and perspectives of different types of users of the airport passenger terminal, including: business travelers; leisure travelers; airport executives; airport, airline, TSA, and concessions staff; and airport consultant staff, to name a few. For more information on this series and the hosts, go back and give the first episode a listen to.

Wendy: Roddy Bogus is in the Hold Room this week with Delia and Neil. Listen to what Roddy has to say as a Baby Boomer and a seasoned aviation professional about traveling during the pandemic and the outlook for the year ahead.

[Interview]

Delia: Welcome to the Hold Room in this episode on the New Passenger Experience today we turn our focus to the air travel experience from the perspective of a baby boomer. We are joined today by Roddy Bogus, a leader in the aviation industry who serves as Vice President in the Aviation Building Service Industry at RS&H. It's such a pleasure to have you today in the hold room. Can you please tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Roddy: Thanks Delia, my name is Roddy Bogus. I'm the Building Service Group leader for RS&H, and what that means is anything that is vertically constructed, so architectural and engineering falls under my group at RS&H, so I don't have responsibility for runways and taxiways, but my leadership is on the vertical applications on airports today. I started out as an architect and in 1988 somebody said,” Hey, can you write a proposal for some airport work?” …and I go, “Yes.” It was very exciting, so over the years I started on the airline side, working for two major carriers. After 911, that business didn't seem to be the right business to be in and started doing a lot more on the airport side. I've enjoyed every minute of it and many times hated every minute of it.

Delia: Thanks, Roddy, one of the questions we had for you was how has the pandemic affected you, and I will add, as a baby boomer air traveler, and then, after that, as your experience being a consultant in the aviation industry?

Roddy: So as a traveler, I think we all in our industry have to look at what we do as travelers too. We went down in March and I didn't travel probably much after the design symposium. I don't think I traveled again till maybe late summer, and the first time I went back after all these months of not traveling and I picked my clothing, my shoes, what goes in my briefcase to get me through the checkpoints, you know, without having to disrobe, and after four or five months, of not traveling. My first trip, I went to the airport, and I wore all the wrong stuff. My shoes rang. I wore the wrong belt. I was disrobing, and for the first time in a long time, I felt like I wasn't quite sure what was going on. I felt a little taken aback. My wife always argues with me and says, “Hey, you know what you guys at work in the airport industry, you guys know what to expect. You kind of know where the restrooms are gonna be.

You know where to look for the gates, and so no matter which airport you're in, you kind of look for your certain clues. For those of us who don't travel every day, you know we sometimes can't find the restroom from having to read the signs and you don't. We don't see it the same way.” I felt for the first time, maybe her pain of going into an airport and being a little less comfortable and how it works 'cause I'd been away from it. So, I think it was a good slap of reality that had me thinking about things which we may talk about today as a passenger. Now from the consultant side, obviously we've had a ton of bad behavior both in the sky and in the airports. There's some airports that jokingly refer to as Friday night Fight Night at the airports now. And that's kind of comical, but it's also very sad to see what's going on, and is that a result in the polarization that we're seeing in the US? Not only politically, but otherwise, where you sit in the political side where you sit on the mask side or you’re just tired of other people side. Then we have that we have the airlines trying to get back up and running. I think we're also in the middle of changing who's flying. We're going from the last of the baby boomers all the way down to the Gen Zers, and I know looking at some of the Gen Zers, I know that their values and what they look for in travel may be different than mine, so there's a lot of things I think that we, as designers of airports, have to start considering. And at least asking ourselves questions of what does air travel look like in the future? How does one size fit all? And even the question is, do I look at the IATA (Airport Handling Manuals) and ACRP Manuals and say that tells me what an airport should look like and how it should function. Maybe there's a little bit of blank paper going on here and saying there's some changes to the system and we ought to be questioning why we're doing what we're doing and is there a different way?

Delia: From the pandemic, what changes have you seen that you feel like needs to be evaluated, maybe already has been evaluated, and do you think those changes will stay around?

Roddy: So, way to start right off with asking hard questions that don't have great answers in my opinion. Delia, I don't know that I've seen a lot of real changes in the US for the pandemic, other than we put in a lot of hand sanitizing machines, we put social distance stickers on the ground, which most people don't really acknowledge, and we've put up a lot of plexiglasses. There's a lot of talk early on with more automated systems, but outside of what I'm seeing, Seattle and I think one other airport do with kind of a call to checkpoint system where you can make reservations and trying that. I haven't seen a whole lot of real change. Let's be honest, that change most of the time, the automated systems here in the US, it comes from the airlines typically. We've read the papers lately with, you know server airlines having really bad days which makes lines and lines and lines of people very unhappy and inevitably they get unhappy with the carrier of choice, but they also become very unhappy with the airport that they're in. Well, I'm not flying out of airport X because the lines are so long, or because my flight is always delayed like it's the airports’ fault, and, at some point in time, I think the airports own a little more of process. And I don't know how that conversation happens with the airline agreements, but we've all seen where bags get late and I hate going to this airport because I never get my bags on time and all this so the automated systems, the intelligence systems, maybe digital twinning as it comes up in the future of how we monitor our airports and play what if with real time analytics are things that we need to see happen? I don't know how the airports and the airlines get together on this, but I think they have to be better partners because the airports wind up being the recipient of bad behavior when people get really frustrated at their carrier.

Delia: I feel like in this industry it is moving towards that direction, but I'd love to get your take a little bit more on what the airport and the airlines need to do become better partners.

Roddy: Well, they've got to talk a little more. I think there's a disconnect sometimes between the airlines on the corporate side and the airlines on the station manager side that reside in the airports. Station managers are the boots on the ground and the corporate people sometimes are there far less, and let's face it, during COVID many of the corporate people we all saw there was a ton of furloughs and a lot of the airline’s corporate offices. There's a bunch of new people there, and because of that, in some of my experience and not in all cases, a lot of the consultancy probably have more experience than the airline people that we're talking to, and that doesn't make us smarter it just means we have more experience and so that conversation that give and take that collaboration probably needs to happen a little more and we all have to be cognizant. They're trying to find a business model that works for them, and their vision is 90 days probably at best right now, so there's there's a lot of spit balls being thrown on the wall. In the meantime, the airports are trying to make a business decision that works for them and their concessions. What happens when you get these low-cost carriers that don't have agreements with other airlines? It's kind of like the mutual aid agreements, that kind of our stations have with municipal fire departments and other law enforcement agencies to come and help each other. I think there needs to be more of that between the airport and the airlines that's more freely utilized and then. I think it's up to us as consultants for how do we plan for this and how do we provide areas to deescalate situations? I feel like our design right now needs to be more focused and de-escalation design then amenity design. If people come off the plane and have nowhere to go, how do we accomplish that? If people are coming in the airport and they're anxious to begin with, how do we de-escalate them before they get on that long cylinder that they're gonna be close. No matter what we do, they're getting on an airplane, and it’s still pretty much has is the same type of seating arrangement, so can we do de-escalation design principles that at least make people breathe and not go on quite as anxious as they might be today? And I don't have the answer to that yet, but I think the answer is yes, we can. It just requires us to look at things a little differently.

Neil: A lot of the changes that you mentioned that you can foresee coming up on the horizon, seem to be technology driven. Whose responsibility do you think it is to try and keep up with these emerging technologies?

Roddy: Well, I think it's consultancy we have to. I feel like my job is to bring ideas of what's possible to my clients, whether it's an airport or an airline. Their bandwidth is very narrow what they're looking at, and I think they look to us. We often use, maybe an overused term, “Trusted Advisors.” What are we seeing in industry? What are we seeing in other airports that we've done? What are we seeing overseas that we could apply over here? So, I think some of it starts with us. Five years ago, I gave a presentation to the Seattle Tacoma Airport, when they you may remember a Memorial Day where their [Seattle Tacoma Airport’s] checkpoints were really, I mean they were out of their mind, they had long checkpoint lines people were missing flights. And we [RS7H] talked about different ways to deal with checkpoint lines that didn't involve the TSA, because the TSA has their formula, they're going to do what they're going to do. What can we do on the queueing side, and how can we eliminate soft targets by having very long queue lines, that if somebody wanted to do damage on the unsecured side, they could do that. And one of the things we talked about, out of many, was using our phone apps to reschedule time at a checkpoint. Well, here we are three to five years later and we're seeing Seattle pilot two different versions where you can log in and get a, it's like you know Disney Fast Pass, get a time that you're supposed to be at the checkpoint, so you have some certainty of when you're going through that allows a little breathing room on your end. You know whether you're sitting in the car waiting, whether it provides more concession time to have a cup of coffee on the landside, before you go in, but there's opportunities and that provides certainty. In this case, we all know that much of the anxiety people have before they fly is getting through that checkpoint. You know, passing that that gate, and so that helps with that, knowing that you know when you're going to be there. I think there's things we can do with technology also, on the secure side, which is virtual hold rooms, as I call it. What can we do about having to have gate huggers? You know, the first thing you do when you go through a checkpoint, I think most people just make sure your gate is still your gate, and that'll then limit you on where you're going to shop or spend money. We're already seeing that the checkpoint process where you can make arrangements. They're seeing more spend per passenger. If you have a virtual hold room, to where, if you're in the Irish pub, maybe six or seven gates down, you can still see the digital paging they say, “Hey Mr. Bogus come to the gate you've been upgraded.” - But then you know when to be there you can see if it changes. So, I think we can use technology to help ourselves out and for the people that are flying, and we still have some analog people, but we're getting to be more and more digital natives to use that to our advantage. So, I think technology is one aspect that certainly they can team with the airlines to bring some of their airplane content into the Hold Room, where you can start a movie in the Hold Room and take it down with you into the plane. One thing we haven't seen so much here, that's been talked about a lot, is automated boarding and, right now, that still seems to be in the airlines box, so I think there's a lot of technology that can help us, but some of it's just going to continue to be us to design things that flow a little better.

Neil: Thank you.

Delia: You’ve [Roddy] provided a lot of great suggestions as far as how to improve the passenger experience. Going back to the Baby Boomers and the difference between the generation, one thing that I've always wondered is, Baby Boomers, when they [Baby Boomers] go through the airport, they may experience a lot of stress. Do you think, as a Baby Boomer that stress is any different than the stress that a Millennial may have, and how do we make the passenger experience better for Baby Boomers, especially as they start to age, and what do we need to consider?

Roddy: I don't know if I'm the right one to answer. I'll tell you what I think. What I'm seeing, the big difference is for a lot of these younger flyers now, is flying is a means to an end. It is not the event and I think for Baby Boomers, and maybe it's 'cause we came on the backside of what we, a lot of us affectionately call the Golden Age travel, it's not that way anymore, and so I joke, as I as I've watched my kids, especially in Europe, you'll get a £20 fair on Flybe or Ryan, or somewhere to go somewhere, and they will sit on the floor in the Hold Room, and as long, as they have Wi-Fi, they will wear 3 layers of clothes cram as much stuff as they can into their backpack, and be in a cattle car, because they're saving their money for their destination, so it's just a crowded bus ride my experience is going to be I'm saving everything for that. So, I think there's two different ways they look at it. You know you look at the Baby Boomers and a lot of them were built on, you know, well we want to go to the club, and we want to leave a space between us and the bench seating at the whole room and we're worried about getting there on time and we need a cup of coffee. I see some of the younger crowds now taking a lot more in stride and just saying I'm not going to talk to anybody. I'm just going to walk through and do my bit business, and I feel like the stress is less. There definitely is two different ways to look at it, I think.

Delia: I definitely do feel stressed in the travel experience sometimes.

Neil: Yeah, it's interesting, I think for the younger folks, the experience through the airport is a bit more transactional than it used to be, and I think you can ,and a good marker of that, you know, I'm turning 40 this year and I started getting on planes, I think when I was eight years old, and one of the things that I even noticed this kind of shift in people you know looking OK in the airport and then people just wearing pajamas, right? Like and I remember the first time I saw like a gaggle of people just wearing, you know, pajamas and flip flops and stuff in the airport. I was like what are they doing like they look. They look terrible, but it doesn't matter look like. What they look like in the app, like they're not taking pictures for social media inside the airport anymore, right? So, I think the way people dress and move for an airport really speaks to that point you made before.

Roddy: Yeah, I struggle wearing anything less dressed down more than dockers on a plane. Not so everybody else on my plane.

Delia: One last question for you [Roddy] that I have is, what does a positive passenger experience mean to you?

Roddy: For me, a positive passenger experience starts with me finding a parking place that's not on the top deck of the airport, and lately I've been parking on the top deck again because, you know, we've seen a lot of people come back. It means a security checkpoint line that doesn't stress me out that I'm going to be too close to boarding time and miss that boarding time, because we know some airlines board early and when they feel like they're fooled, they leave and leave early and some board late the with gate changes. And some of that's on me, I have to be there in time, but a smooth process through security is always good for me. If I check a bag, and I had shoulder surgery last year, so I have to check the bag a few more times, since I'm not supposed to put them in the overhead bin. The other thing that really sends me into orbit. There's two things - One is why the pilot that gets off the plane doesn't tell the mechanics or something wrong with the plane. Why does it have to be the incoming pilot that comes on and goes, “Oh, you know the tires flat, the wing fell off” - whatever happens and it's new, and so we play that game. And then arriving at your destination and your gate not being ready or will they give you another gate and there's no agent to drive the bridge? And so, you're you're on the plane for 15 to 20 minutes at the gate, but you can't get off and, I guess, that that all speaks to me. I think we're upside down on customer service and maybe customer service has gone the way of the dinosaur on many airlines. My time seems to have no value to the air carrier. If they're late, I'm sorry if they can blame it on the weather will it’s on the weather, whether it's a mechanic or not, If we get there nobody there to run the gate over, sorry, you're late, and by the way, the most frequent arrival announcement I hear is, “Well, we're sorry related, so if you're if this is your destination please wait on the plane while people that are going to hurriedly try to make connections get off”, I hear that more often than “Welcome to you know your home”, but if I miss the flight because I'm late, it's all my problem and so I feel like as a passenger, it's never the airlines problem, it's always my problem and, from a customer service perspective, I struggle with that, and so I don't know if we're just becoming a group of customer services, less airlines and that's going to be the new customer service of the future, I'm unsure where we go, but getting back to your question earlier Delia, I feel like the Millennials and the Gen Zers seem to take some of that way more in stride than what I take in stride.

Neil: Yeah, as you kind of identified earlier, if the younger generations value a lower price and it being a very transactional process in getting to a place, then if the market is basically establishing what they're willing to pay, then the airlines have to react in kind, and that means dropping the fares, dropping the bottom line, and that means reduced levels of service from top to bottom and I directly experienced this. I think you know you mentioned earlier, you know one of your sons or your daughters they are getting airline fares for, like you know, £20 over in the EU, and I, I think in the EU I've not seen personally like that massive shift towards budget travel over in North America to the same degree that it is in the EU, right? You know there was articles written, you know, like 10 or 15 years ago, like it was cheaper for someone to go from say Manchester to get to London it was cheaper for them to go via Amsterdam on the plane than it was to take a train, right? …and that I think really is a great standout example of like how cheap air travel is in Europe so maybe that's bleeding more into the North American travel experience as well. With the younger folks as well, again, I’m 40, and I was born in 1981, so I’m elder Millennial. So, I kind of like straddle these two generations and I think everyone got their limit of or their idea of what is an unacceptable level of customer service. The younger generations certainly seem to have a lower threshold for that, but when that threshold is met, well, you know they've got the nuclear arms of you know I'm going to reach out on every social media platform I can, and I'm going to reach out to their chat bots and I'm going to do this and I'm going to get and I'm going to bleed them for everything I can. On the other end of it right, like? How do you [Roddy] deal with poor passenger, uh, poor customer service like what's your reaction to that and what’s the product of that like? What's the outcome?

Roddy: I have to be very careful and the few times that I that I will reach out to say their Twitter accounts, if I do publicly, I've learned not to do it because I get a lot of my associates laughing and saying, “Oh, we saw the trouble you had,” and so I have to pick my words carefully. So many times, I'll direct message them and just say, you know, my carrier of choice and say, “This is the issue, you know, how can we fix this?” …and usually just get the standard feedback back, every once in a while, you get somebody that tries to help, and so I felt, I feel like some of the best customer service comes from the direct messaging that I've experienced so far. On Twitter, for instance, as opposed to going to anything else. Now, you know, I have a high-status level with one airline, which gives me, you know, some different phone numbers and that they will sometimes pay a little more attention, but not everybody has that and that’s still very frustrating. Uh, most of the time I think you'd see me writing my frustration into some of the articles I write. Just trying to get it out and poke fun at some of the things that go on, but it, it's difficult and you know you, anybody in our industry, no matter if you're Millennial or not, you have to be careful these days because social media presence is around forever, and what you write, words hurt, and we've seen plenty of that over the past two or three years. So, I most of the time I just, you know, suck it up, buttercup, and go down the road. And, you know, what keeps me from changing my carrier of choice it's probably their customer loyalty program, the frequent flyer program, you know, if they drop that down enough, then you know I might make a different choice, and that's bad to say, but sometimes I deal with bad behavior because there's still a benefit to me, or at least I feel like there is.

Delia: All really great questions. We don't have the answers to them, but it's something we can continue to think about.

Wendy: Thank you so much that was awesome, that was so awesome, really enjoyed listening to that conversation, thanks Roddy!

[Outro]

Wendy: Thanks for joining us in The Hold Room for this special podcast series exploring the new passenger experience. You can find more from this series on the ACC Training Hub—that’s training.acconline.org/the-hold-room—or wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple Podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, etc. Follow us for more content from the Airport Consultants Council. You can support this podcast by leaving a rating or review and by telling your friends and colleagues about the podcast. Thanks again.