What can we learn from artists about decision-making?  More than you might think.
We often see decision-making in binary terms and whether decisions are good or bad.  But what if they’re more subjective and akin to the way an artist looks at the world?  That’s what my guest explores in her new book.
 
That guest is Elspeth Kirkman, Chief Programme Officer at the innovation agency Nesta and a Visiting Senior Research Fellow at King's College London's Policy School and Exeter University's Business School.  She works at the intersection of design, data, and experimentation to solve societal problems.
 
Elspeth’s book ‘Decisionscape’ explores how the decisions we make are influenced by a variety of factors, many of which are personal to each of us.
 
In our discussion, we explore:

• Elspeth’s career and work;
  
  
• What Decisionscapes are and how using an artistic lens can help us to understand how and why we make decisions;
  
  
• How factors like social capital can lead people to make seemingly counter-intuitive decisions;
  
  
• Parallels between the creative process in writing and decision-making;
  
  
• the impact of everyday choices on life's narrative and long-term happiness;
  
  
• the significance of small, habitual decisions in shaping our lives;
  
  
• the concept of counterfactual thinking and finding contentment in reality;
  
  
• the enjoyment of making decisions, even without complete information;
  
  
• why embracing imperfection in decision-making can help us live more satisfied lives

and much, much more.
 
Links to topics we discuss during the show

The Green Day concert where the audience sings Bohemian Rhapsody - https://youtu.be/cZnBNuqqz5g?si=SSkpKTIZ1OVv4qfn
 
Oliver Burkeman’s Book ‘Four Thousand Weeks’ -  https://www.oliverburkeman.com/books
 
Pablo Picasso’s Picture of a Bull - https://drawpaintacademy.com/the-bull/
 
Links to Elspeth and her work

Decisionscape - https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262048941/decisionscape/
 
Behavioural Insights, the book she co-authored with Michael Hallsworth - https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/647522/behavioral-insights-by-michael-hallsworth-and-elspeth-kirkman/
 
Elspeth’s work at Nesta - https://www.nesta.org.uk/team/elspeth-kirkman/
 
Her profile on LinkedIn - www.linkedin.com/in/elspethkirkman
 
Twitter/X - https://twitter.com/Karminker
 
Previous episodes of the show

I have featured topics related to decision-making in many episodes of the show, which are available at www.humanriskpodcast.com.
 
Two recent episodes of particular relevance are my discussions with:
 
Dr Melina Moleskis -  https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/dr-melina-moleskis-on-decision-making-part-one/
 
and
 
Ben Cattaneo - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/ben-cattaneo-on-decision-making-part-two/

What makes us more or less likely to comply with rules or laws? My guest, Benjamin Van Rooij, knows all about this subject. 


He is a Professor of Law and Society at the University of Amsterdam who  researches and writes about behavioural law; in other words, the impact laws have on human behaviour and the behavioural science behind law. This is Benjamin’s fifth appearance on the show, which tells you that he’s incredibly engaging and insightful. 

I invited Benjamin to come back onto the show to discuss his latest research project on the  ‘Obligation to Obey’; the question of whether we feel obliged to comply with Rules or the Law, simply because they are Rules or the Law. 

We did talk about that and some of his other research.  But we also got into a much wider conversation about Compliance — what it’s there to do and the behavioural drivers behind it — and fascinatingly, some insights into Benjamin’s own propensity to comply, what drives his intellectual curiosity and his observations about Compliance In The Wild.

In our discussion, we explored:

• The Roots and Evolution of Compliance;
  
  
• Why it can be hard to prove the effectiveness of Compliance programs;
  
  
• The difference between Reactive vs. Preventive Compliance;
  
  
• How Compliance Functions are evolving;
  
  
• Why Behavioural Science, Testing and Experimentation are important in meeting Compliance objectives;
  
  
• How and Why Social Norms can drive Compliance:
  
  
• How curiosity and challenge can benefit Compliance;

And much, much more.

Resources
To find out more about Benjamin and his research, visit his faculty page.
 
You can listen to the previous episodes of the show in which we discussed:

To hear his four previous appearances on the show:

COVID Compliance 

The Behavioral Code which explores the book of the same name, which he co-authored with Dr Adam Fine. 
 
Compliance 2.0
 
Measuring Compliance, where we discussed the book of the same name that he co-authored with Professor Melissa Rorie. 

What goes into human decision-making? If you listened to the previous episode of the show with Dr Melina Moleskis on decision-making, then you’ll know what’s coming next.   If you didn’t, then don’t worry; you can listen to that after this.

My guest on this episode is Ben Cattaneo, a friend of the show and the founder of The Decision-Making Studio, a startup that helps clients to make better decisions. 

In our discussion, we pick up some of the themes I discussed with Melina and explore others. Since Ben’s background is in risk — he hosts the All Things Risk podcast — we explore how, in an uncertain world, making good decisions is critical. 

On the episode, you'll hear about: 

• Ben's experiences of founding The Decision Making Studio;
  
  
• the importance of integrating human elements into decision-making processes;
  
  
• the FOCUS framework for improving decision quality;
  
  
• the need to blend art and science in making decisions;
  
  
• the flaws in classic MBA case studies for teaching decision-making and the benefits of looking at less-known examples for deeper insights;
  
  
• the need to shift towards embracing uncertainty as a natural part of decision-making;
  
  
• the complexity and importance of decision-making in both personal and organizational contexts.

and much more.

Resources
Part One of this series with Dr Melina Moleskis on Decision-Making: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/dr-melina-moleskis-on-decision-making-part-one/

 Blockbuster Netflix story: https://finshots.in/archive/the-incredible-netflix-story-you-didnt-know/

Comedian Des Bishop on Mindfulness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU_wLC0NlgU

James Clear on Tattoos, Haircuts & Hats: https://jamesclear.com/3-2-1/february-1-2024

You can find Ben via his Decision Making Studio website: https://thedecisionmaking.studio/

Ben’s All Things Risk podcast is available on all platforms and here:  https://www.allthingsrisk.co.uk/

The episode of his show featuring Paula Reid who cycled across Ukraine: https://www.allthingsrisk.co.uk/2024/04/02/ep-215-paula-reid-on-cycling-across-ukraine/ 

The Decision-Making Studio https://thedecisionmaking.studio/

Ben’s Decision Reaction Videos are available via his account on LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/ben-cattaneo/

The specific episodes he refers to on the show: 
Mark Gilmour’s race in Morocco: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/ben-cattaneo_decisionmaking-decisionreactions-activity-7183537246388518912-jBQR?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop

The movie ‘Gung Ho’: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/ben-cattaneo_decisionmaking-activity-7155084173228077056-iX2H?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop


Relevant episodes of the Human Risk podcast:
Ben on ‘All Things Risk': https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/all-things-human-risk-crosscast/

Alison Taylor on 'Doing The Right Thing': https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/alison-taylor-on-doing-the-right-thing/

Professor Bent Flyvbjerg on 'How Big Things Get Done': https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/professor-bent-flyvbjerg-on-how-big-things-get-done/

What is decision science, and how can it help us to make better decisions?

On this episode, I'm joined by decision-making expert Dr Melina Moleskis, who explains how she combines decision science and behavioural science to help her clients make better decisions.

In a wide-ranging discussion, we explore:

• how decision-making education is often overlooked in schools and businesses;
  
  
• why decisions are swayed by various behavioural factors and how we can recognise them;
  
  
• the power of AI to help provide alternative perspectives and aid decision-making;
  
  
• the importance of judging decisions by process, not outcome;
  
  
• why we should celebrate and learn from failure;
  
  
• the importance of practising decision-making
  
  and much, much more.
  
  

Resources
To find out more about Melina, her company Meta Decisions and her wonderful newsletter: https://www.meta-decisions.com/

Melina on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melinamoleskis/

My post on British Airways' 'Mistake of the Month' policy: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/humanrisk_ethics-compliance-speakup-activity-7151475397551902720-j3OW?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop

What is it that makes a job enjoyable and fulfilling?  While you’re likely to have your own very individual answers to that question, chances are it’ll be to do with what you’re required to do, how much freedom you have, whether you think it’s worthwhile and how well it plays to your skillsets and interests.
 
Yet, all too often, companies focus more on profit and less on creating environments that truly allow people to flourish. My guest on this episode, Philippa White, thinks things can be done differently.
 
She’s the founder of TIE Leadership and the author of a brand new book, Return on Humanity: Leadership lessons from all corners of the world. In her work and in her book, she argues that it’s possible and desirable to chart a new course—one that recognizes our shared humanity as the ultimate driver of innovation, resilience, and satisfaction in the workplace. If that sounds idealistic, it is, but it’s also realistic.

In our discussion, we explore:

• Philippa's career and what led her to do what she does now, including a fascinating story about a member of her own family;
• How experiential learning can help people to recognise their own strengths and weaknesses;
• The TIE leadership approach and the benefits this brings;
• Why leadership that focuses on humans over profits is more sustainable and will yield better results;
  
  And much, much more.

Links
To discover more about Phillippa, TIE Leadership, and her book 'Return on Humanity': www.tieleadership.com


To hear her TIE Unearthed podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/tie-unearthed/id1521035846  

Ernesto Soroli's TED Talk on the Italians and the Zambian Hippos: https://www.ted.com/talks/ernesto_sirolli_want_to_help_someone_shut_up_and_listen?language=en

Why do we lie and cheat and why might it not always be a bad thing?

On this episode, I’m speaking to a research professor who has studied lying and cheating in the natural world and what we can learn about it in the human world.   

My guest, Dr Lixing Sun is a Research Professor in the Department of Biological Sciences at Central Washington University. While his research focuses on biology, his interests are in connecting behaviour, evolution, psychology, and economics. 
 
In his latest book, The Liars of Nature and the Nature of Liars, Lixing explores how nature is rife with cheating and, perhaps surprisingly, how dishonesty has given rise to diversity.
By exploring how everything from microscopic organisms to highly intelligent birds and mammals engage in lying and deception he explains how cheating in nature relies on basic rules which also apply to humans.
 
In his book and in our discussion, Lixing explains the prevalence of cheating in human society and identifies the kinds of cheating that spur innovation and cultural vitality and lays down a blueprint for combatting malicious cheating such as fake news and disinformation.
 
Resources
Lixing’s faculty page: https://www.cwu.edu/academics/biology/directory/lixing-sun.php
 
Lixing on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lixing-sun-7ba5067/

Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/LSun5 

His book ‘The Liars of Nature and the Nature of Liars’: https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691198606/the-liars-of-nature-and-the-nature-of-liars 

The Psychology Today article he referred to on the show:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/lies-and-deception/202311/how-to-outsmart-yourself

What prompted a courageous former employee of Harvey Weinstein to break her Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA)?
 
On this episode I'm speaking to a campaigner who came to prominence as the individual who broke the silence surrounding the misconduct of Harvey Weinstein. Formerly an assistant to Weinstein, Zelda Perkins made headlines when she came forward with allegations of sexual harassment against him.
 
In the late 1990s, she signed an NDA, as part of a settlement which for years prevented her from speaking out about her experiences. However, motivated by the emergence of other allegations against Weinstein and the rise of the MeToo campaign, Zelda chose to break her silence and speak publicly about her experiences and the culture of secrecy enabled by NDAs
. 
Her story has been pivotal in the global discussion about sexual harassment in the workplace, the misuse of power, and the legal and ethical implications of non-disclosure agreements. Zelda is the co founder of Can't Buy My Silence, a campaign group that is committed to end the misuse of NDAs to buy victims silence.
 
In our discussion, we discuss Zelda’s experiences, what motivated her to break the NDA, what drives her campaigning, and what it’s like to be at the heart of a new story.
 
You'll hear about the stresses and strains and her experience of something that nothing can really prepare you for. It's one of the most revealing discussions I've ever had on this show, with insights that are relevant to whistleblowing, transparency, campaigning, and the way organizations and society treat those who dare to speak up about injustice or wrongdoing.
 
Links

Zelda on Twitter/X

The Can’t Buy My Silence campaign, including resources for those being asked to sign NDAs or who are already subject to them.

The FT article Zelda mentions in our discussion: https://www.ft.com/content/1dc8a8ae-b7e0-11e7-8c12-5661783e5589
 
The NYTimes article Zelda refers to: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/us/harvey-weinstein-harassment-allegations.html
 
An interview Zelda gave to The Guardian newspaper: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/23/zelda-perkins-there-will-always-be-men-like-weinstein-all-i-can-do-is-try-to-change-the-system-that-enables-them

How, in a world of limited resources, can we prioritise risk? Which ones should we focus on more than others?

This isn't just something we need to think about in a work context.  It also applies to our personal lives; where should we spend our money, time and headspace?

My guest is a friend of the show who has appeared four times before (links below).

Professor Magda Osman is a Professor of Basic & Applied Decision-Making at Leeds Business School. She's a psychologist by training, with a specific interest in decision-making under risk and uncertainty, folk beliefs in the unconscious, as well as an interest in examining the effectiveness of methods of behavioural change.

In our discussion, we explore:

• why we need to prioritise risk and the challenges of doing so;
  
  
• the benefits of group wisdom, and the reasons we might not always find it;
  
  
• the risks posed by a need to drive for consensus;
  
  
• how social dynamics influence decision-making;
• the power of cognitive diversity

 and much, much more.


To find out more about Magda, her research and her work, visit her website.  You can also find her on LinkedIn.

To hear previous episodes of the show featuring Magda (in the order they were recorded):

'On Behavioural Interventions that Fail' 

'On Unconscious Bias - what is it & can we train people to not display it?'

'On Compliance, Coercion & Competence'

'On Misinformation'

How can we make better decisions?  By paying attention to good advice or information and ignoring the opposite.  In a world where we're overloaded with data and opinions, it can be hard to determine what is good and what is bad advice.

My guest Nuala Walsh, is the author of a new book called 'Tune In! How to make smarter decisions in a noisy world'.  In it, she highlights how we make decisions and the risks of using the wrong information to make them. What are the risks of mishearing, misinformation and misjudgement, and what can we do to pay attention to helpful inputs and ignore unhelpful ones?

In our discussion, we explore:

• Nuala's unique expertise in behavioural science, investment, and consulting
• How her book "Tune In" focuses on making smart decisions amid information overload
• The significance of personal and professional stories in shaping decision-making
• How Cognitive biases and 'decision friction' affect our judgment
• The balance between intuition and deliberate thought in ethical decisions
• Corporate speed in decision-making vs. the importance of careful deliberation
• The 'trilogy of error'—blind spots, deaf spots, and dumb spots—in perception. 
• 'Perimeter traps' that represent pitfalls in judgment and decision-making
• Nuala's personal transformation through writing and its impact on legacy; 
• Practical advice on applying smarter decision-making in everyday life.

and much, much more.

To learn more about Nuala, her work and 'Tune In': https://www.nualagwalsh.com/

What does storytelling have to do with managing risk? On this episode, I’m speaking to novelist, playwright, and screenwriter Preethi Nair.  She also helps people who want to tell their stories to identify the one that will resonate and tell them in the best possible way.
 
We all know the power of storytelling.  It’s how we learn as kids and how we share information as adults. The risk angle here is that if we want people to do the things we want them to do, and not do the things we don’t, then stories are a powerful tool in persuading them.

In our discussion, we explore:

• What makes a great story;
  
  
• Why storytelling matters;
  
  
• Why we can often find it hard to tell the right stories;
  
  
• What we can do to identify the stories we could and should be telling;
  
  
• How Preethi came to be a storyteller;

And much, much more.  Including, of course, Preethi’s own story.

Additional Episode
If you enjoy this episode, then I also recommend listening to my discussion with James Victore on “Creative Courage’.  James helps people (in his words) to ‘get paid to do what they love’. Many of the topics we discussed here chime with that discussion.  You’ll find it here: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/james-victore-on-creative-courage/
 
Links

To find out more about Preethi, her books and her consulting work -  https://preethinair.com/

Preethi on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/preethi-nair-author-keynote-speaker-md-29471a4/

The NYTimes ‘Significant Objects’ study - https://significantobjects.com/

The Encyclopaedia Britannica - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Britannica