The Jabot

Kathryn interviewed Elise Holtzman, President of The Lawyer's Edge, who shares her journey from pre-med to law and discusses challenges faced by lawyers. She highlights the pressure being overwhelming leading to visible stress, but advises breaking down goals into smaller achievable tasks. Elise also points out that self-doubts often block individuals from expressing their needs or setting boundaries, and stresses the need to ignore such doubts as they are not based on reality. She encourages lawyers to seek help when stuck and to realize that progress requires new skills and habits, even if changing these seems hard.

Highlights

• Why Elise decided to move from medical school to law school
• The idea of conducting "mini experiments" and trying a few new things like learning to delegate more or showing up with solutions rather than just problems.
• Law firms' responsibility to communicate their expectations upfront to their associates and to give them a clear roadmap for professional development
• Ways individuals can develop a macro perspective on their legal career while dealing with daily tasks, such as finding quiet time to reflect or discussing with a friend
• Spending time with like-minded individuals who can provide motivation and support in aspiring career advancements
• The challenges of being stuck in a rut in the legal field and suggests making small changes to gradually improve the situation
• The importance of pacing oneself and not trying to make dramatic changes all at once
• The mental roadblocks or "gremlins" that prevent people from making much-needed changes in their careers

Episode Resources

• https://thelawyersedge.com/about-us/meet-elise-holtzman/
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/eliseholtzman

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Kathryn interviewed Susan Myres, a Managing Partner of Myres & Associates PLLC, who discusses the prevalence of "decision fatigue" in the legal industry. She suggests lawyers take regular breaks and maintain a work-life balance to counter fatigue and stress. She emphasizes the components of self-care and health in a lawyer's responsibility to their clients. Susan also highlights the lack of effective tools to manage this ongoing stress within the profession. Arguing for the importance of being adequately prepared for cases and meetings, she recounts an experience where her unpreparedness negatively impacted a client. She views these scenarios as learning opportunities, warning that, without proper management, decision fatigue can lead to unsustainable legal careers. Lastly, Susan advocates for the development of effective tools to aid in managing decision fatigue and ensuring continued quality in legal service.

Highlights

• What led Susan Myers to specialize in matrimonial and family law
• Why the practice of family law interesting for her
• Dealing with the intensity of family law cases
• The notion of decision fatigue
• The Harvard Business Review issue "How to Make Decisions Amid Chaos"
• Managing stress and emotions amidst decision fatigue
• The importance of delegation and taking breaks for overall well-being
• The signs of approaching burnout in law practice
• The concept of decision fatigue and the importance of checklists in managing tasks efficiently
• Importance of self-awareness in managing workloads and stress in the legal profession
• Why young lawyers who feel enormous pressure to do it all
• The need to mentor and support them

Episode Resources

• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01OU2Y5TmNw
• https://www.thehoustondivorcefirm.com/our-team/susan-myres/

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Kathryn Introduces guests Douglas Letter and Shira Feldman from Brady United, an organization focused on reducing gun violence. They discuss their driving factors for practicing law, touch on their work, and explore specific gun laws, including the case of United States vs Rahimi, relevant to domestic violence prevention. Shira outlines the current state of gun laws post-Bruin decision while Doug shares optimism about the Supreme Court's potential future pro-safety rulings.

Highlights

• Doug and Shira's work at Brady, which involves legal advocacy and representation for gun violence victims
• The optimistic outlook after the oral arguments in the "US vs Rahimi" case
• State regulations on assault weapons and high capacity magazines
• The role states play in regulating gun laws and the optimism that these measures will be upheld by the Supreme Court in the future
• The significance and value of their work at Brady
• Their initiatives outside of litigation, particularly working with Hollywood, to increase awareness and bring about a cultural shift on gun safety.
• Shira and Doug's work at the broader organization of Brady and their important incremental changes.

Episode Resources https://www.bradyunited.org/our-work/brady-legal/our-legal-team

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Kathryn interviewed Dylan Penningroth to discuss the intersections of Black history, law, and the civil rights movement. Penningroth, author of "Before the Movement: the Hidden History of Black Civil Rights", stresses the importance of viewing the Black community as a diverse group with various perspectives, and using the law as both an instrument of oppression and of change. He speaks on his research challenges and the impacts of corporate law on Black history.

Highlights

• The hidden history of Black Civil Rights
• The significance of contextual understanding of civil rights that goes beyond racial discrimination
• The importance of taking a focused approach to understand the Civil Rights movement
• Marriage, divorce, and inheritance in the lives of Black people
• The reasons why stories involving Black people sometimes get "lost"
• Black people using law as a tool in their daily lives
• The tension between law as both a source of oppression and a tool for liberation
• Ponders whether the law a strategy is worth pursuing for Black people
• Shows mixed opinions about the law as a tool of oppression and also a tool of liberation

Episode Resources

• https://www.law.berkeley.edu/our-faculty/faculty-profiles/dylan-penningroth/
• https://history.berkeley.edu/dylan-c-penningroth

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Kathryn interviewed Amanda Wolfman, who shares her career transition from social work to law and advocates for diversity, equity, and inclusion within the legal field. From her experiences at various law firms, she emphasizes the importance of problem-solving skills and having these values ingrained in all facets of a firm's operations for it to be impactful. She also shares some career highs and lows and the satisfaction derived from solving clients' problems.

Highlights

• Her experience on job transition and finding the right fit.
• The future of diversity in the legal field and how to encourage positive change.
• The need for deep commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion.
• Showing up and actively fighting for progress in diversity, equity and inclusion.
• Highlights of her career in law.
• More career highs, including trials won and differences made for clients.

Episode Resources https://www.nge.com/Our-Lawyers/Amanda-Wolfman

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Kathryn interviewed Melinda, a Partner based in London, who focuses on the recruitment of partners into elite international firms in the UK and Europe. In the course of her 25-year career, she has placed hundreds of partners and partner-teams into AmLaw 100 and UK 20 firms and has launched numerous offices for law firm clients. She successfully represents candidates across a wide range of practice areas and has particularly deep expertise in private equity and related areas.

Highlights

• Melinda shares her journey into legal recruiting and the opportunities it has presented for her.
• Discussion about the overall brand of law firms and its importance during times of change.
• Discussion around making sure a firm's culture and values align with what they care about.
• Discussion on how diversity impacts the compensation and origin of credit in law firms.
• Statement about the success rate of the Reignite Academy program, with three participants having made partner.
• Discussion about the attributes needed in candidates for successful comeback into the legal profession.
• Observation of an increase in litigation partners due to a surge in restructuring special situations and distressed finance.
• Anticipation of future mergers in the mid-market sector and increased transatlantic mergers.

Episode Resources https://www.macrae.com/melinda-wallman

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Kathryn interviewed experts Natalie E. Norfus and Shanté S. Gordon discussing the legal industry, the application of AI in legal research via Lexis Plus's new platform, and promoting diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). Regarding burnout, Shanté advises identifying needs and seeking support. Natalie emphasizes realism in work allocation and setting work boundaries, particularly during the pandemic. Both underline the crucial need for resources and realistic expectations.

Highlights

• The AI-powered tool, Judicial Brief Analysis, and its ability to offer targeted recommendations of relevant cases
• Natalie's motivation to attend law school, wanting to advocate for people and be a civil rights lawyer
• Strategy work Shanté produces for their DEI clients when she has time to focus on her work
• The importance of intentionality in DEI practices, especially in the retention of diverse employees in a company
• Work does not have to be a zero-sum game with winners and losers, advocating for a middle ground between full-time remote work and compulsory on-site presence
• The larger structural issues in the legal profession and how it affects the profession's readiness for work-from-home setups
• Steps in recognizing burnout, addressing it, and seeking support as needed
• How business can start reiterate available resources and encourage employees to take advantage of them as necessary

Episode Resources

• https://parade.com/author/natalie-e-norfus
• https://thenorfusfirm.com/our-team/

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Kathryn interviewed Philippe Sands, who discussed his extensive law career including trade and human rights cases, his work on the Chagos Archipelago case for Mauritius, and his aim to humanize law through understanding case individuals. Philippe also provided insight into his role as a counsel for Samoa regarding nuclear weapons, diving into the realities of legal situations in international law. Offering career advice, he highlighted the importance of relevant studies, gaining experience as law school research assistants, and showed the numerous opportunities available within governmental, non-governmental, and academic roles.

Highlights

• Philippe Sands' background, experience with U.S law, and his family's background in law
• His writing process and how it involves everyday people's stories
• The book's potential impact and relevance to the black community in the U.S
• Personal stories and connections with the people impacted mentioned in the book
• A powerful moment of the Chagossian community returning to their islands after 50 years
• What is the human element in law?
• How law impacts communities and individuals and its importance in education
• The use of nuclear weapons and France's resumption of nuclear testing in the South Pacific
• An illustrative incident regarding a French judge's response during the case and the realities of law practice

Advice to aspiring practitioners of international law Episode Resources

• https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/authors/176809/philippe-sands/
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_Sands

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Kathryn speaks with Tiffany Obeng, author and lawyer, who shares her journey into law and children's literature. Inspired to become a lawyer at a young age, she highlights the need for diverse portrayals of professions in children's literature, starting with her book 'Andrew Learns about Lawyers.' Tiffany challenges the notion that black boys don't enjoy reading, and despite criticism, remains committed to writing books featuring black characters. She's hopeful that her work will not only diversify children's literature but also future workplaces by opening children's eyes to various careers, with an upcoming book exploring being a chef.

Highlights

• Tiffany's decision to attend law school
• Her legal career journey and how she became involved in employment discrimination law
• Why she decided to write a children's book
• The importance of introducing various career possibilities to children early on
• Importance of introducing various career prospects to children from diverse backgrounds
• The need for positive representation in children's literature
• Importance of diversifying children's literature
• The challenges faced in bringing diversity to children's literature
• The current state of diversity efforts in the year 2023 with law firms being sued for diversity initiatives and affirmative action being dismantled
• What the future holds for Tiffany as an author, advocate for diversity efforts, and a lawyer
• Her plans to continue writing children's books about various careers, thus promoting diversity and knowledge in different fields.

Episode Resources https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B08GMB1M3G

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Kathryn speaks with Kelly Olivier and Allyson West, the founders of The Themis Group Trial by Women in Hale & Monico. They discussed their recent trial and its highs and lows. They remain committed despite a disappointing result. They also shared their future plans for Themis - to grow, reach more women, and serve as a powerful force for women's issues and rights. They adhere to the client-first approach and select their cases carefully. Success aside, Kelly and Allyson find their commitment, authenticity, and empathy from being women make it a rewarding profession, and they aim for Themis to be a platform where women lawyers and clients feel respected and heard.

Highlights

• Allyson and Kelly's reasons for starting the Themis group.
• The structure of the Themis Group
• Handling work pressures in law practice
• Advice for women considering a career as trial attorneys
• Working characteristics that make trial work appealing
• The need for reducing pressure and accepting imperfections in law practice
• Handling career lows and gearing up for the next case
• The experiences of working with an all-woman legal team and the collaboration involved
• The highs and the lows faced during a trial
• The appeal of their work even amidst the lows experienced
• Their small and big picture goals for Themis, emphasizing it as a safe space for women and trials, and expanding its reach

Episode Resources https://www.halemonico.com/themis-trial-by-women/

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