EP321 - Amazon Q3 2024 Earnings Recap

In today’s episode of the Jason & Scot Show, Jason and Scot dive into the latest developments shaping retail, tech, and consumer trends heading into the 2024 holiday season. Here’s a breakdown of the topics covered in this jam-packed discussion:

• Amazon Q3 2024 Earnings Release

• Amazon Q3 2024 Earnings Call Transcript

🎉 Holiday Season Sentiment & Retailer Anxiety

• With the holiday season shorter than usual due to a late Thanksgiving, retailers face the challenge of fewer shopping days. Consumer behavior trends indicate a shift toward essential purchases over non-essentials, creating mixed expectations for holiday spending.

• The impact of the election is expected to influence consumer sentiment, media spending, and holiday promotions, with Amazon and Walmart predicted to perform above market averages.

📈 Amazon Q3 Earnings Highlights

• Retail & GMV: Amazon’s retail revenue surged by 7.2%, with U.S. gross merchandise volume (GMV) rising 9.9%—nearly three times the industry average.

• Efficiency Improvements: Amazon’s focus on fulfillment efficiency under CEO Andy Jassy is paying off. The company’s same-day delivery options and regionalized inventory system have led to a 25% improvement in fulfillment cost efficiency.

• Growth in Essentials: With increased demand for everyday essentials, Amazon is capturing market share from traditional pharmacies, offering same-day delivery for prescriptions in select cities.

🏢 Amazon’s New Store Concepts

• Whole Foods & Amazon Grocery: A new Amazon grocery concept opened in Chicago, catering to convenience items like packaged snacks and sugary drinks, which contrasts with Whole Foods’ health-conscious inventory.

💸 Amazon’s Profit Engines: AWS & Advertising

• AWS: With a 19% increase in AWS revenue, Amazon is now operating at a 38% margin. Demand for AI-powered compute continues to push AWS growth, even as it faces GPU supply constraints.

• Advertising: Amazon’s advertising revenue reached $14.3 billion, growing 19% year-over-year. With a nearly 70% estimated gross margin, advertising may soon outpace AWS in profitability.

🛒 Rise of AI-Powered Search & Perplexity’s Native Checkout

• Perplexity’s Surge: Scot shares his switch from Google to Perplexity as his primary search engine, noting the emerging competition from OpenAI’s ChatGPT search. Perplexity now includes shopping links, allowing users to check out directly through Amazon, hinting at a new era of AI-driven shopping.

• Impact on Retailers: Retailers need to rethink SEO strategies as search shifts toward AI-powered “answer engines” that may fundamentally change how products are discovered and purchased online.

📡 What’s Next for Alexa?

• Amazon’s next-gen Alexa, powered by large language models (LLMs), faces delays into 2025. Scalability and usability challenges highlight Amazon’s shifting internal dynamics and potential headcount reductions in its Alexa division.

🔍 Is Google Search Under Threat?

• Perplexity’s and OpenAI’s expansion into search could spell trouble for Google. With monetization still in the early stages for these answer engines, the retail industry is watching closely to see how they’ll shape online shopping behavior.

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Episode 321 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded on Monday, November 4th, 2024.

 http://jasonandscot.com

Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, Chief Commerce Strategy Officer at Publicis, and Scot Wingo, CEO of GetSpiffy and Co-Founder of ChannelAdvisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing.

Transcript

Jason: [0:23] Welcome to the Jason and Scott Show. This is episode 321 being recorded on Monday, November 4th, 2024. I'm your host, Jason Retail Geek Goldberg. And as usual, I'm here with your co-host, Scott Wingo.

Scot: [0:38] Hey, Jason, and welcome back, Jason and Scott Show listeners. Well, Jason, you've been out there traveling more than I have. What are retailers saying about the holiday? Are they lots of excitement? Are they more worried about the election and they'll worry about the holiday? what's going on out in the retail end.

Jason: [0:54] Yeah i feel like the the like webster word of the year is going to be anxiety obviously we're a day before election day and everybody's anxious half the country is going to be depressed no matter what happens there but i feel like retailers are also anxious about holiday it's a weird thing we won't we don't have to get into the whole thing but it's the shortest holiday season we get uh thanksgiving super late so it's five days shorter than last year. So there's fewer days to spend on stuff. Consumers have been spending slowly, trading down the lower priced goods, buying more everyday essentials and foregoing non-essential purchases for a while. And then the election is a major distraction. It also is really hard to buy media and break through all the noise. You live in a swing state. So I assume you haven't been able to turn on a tv or look at your phone for several days um yeah.

Scot: [1:54] Wall-to-wall and three inches of mail every day it's crazy.

Jason: [1:56] Yeah yeah and so like like even if you're not someone that's super focused on the election like it just like the black friday ads just don't break through all that noise and it's more expensive to put that by the media for those ads and all of those things so you know there's some there's some historical precedent in previous elections that you tend to get a little bounce in spending after the election, but no election's been this polarized before. So I'm less confident that history tells us exactly what's going to happen here. And then there's this huge vibe session thing still going on where, you know, people are generally pessimistic and anxious about the economy and, you know, laser focused on the price of goods and spending less, even though honestly, like most of the macroeconomics are actually like pretty solid. Like there's a lot of economic good news that you would ordinarily expect to translate to consumer confidence and more spending. Now there was a slight uptick in consumer confidence for the first time in a while this month. So there's plenty of tea leaves, however you want to interpret them, but there there's very little certainty. My I look at all this and I say, on average.

Jason: [3:15] The biggest retailers that are, you know, best at really being highly efficient and low cost. So the Amazons and Walmarts of the world are going to do reasonably well. They'll outperform the market. They'll have lower margins and a bunch of specialty retailers and big box retailers and people that aren't quite as efficient are going to have a really hard time. But, you know, I hope I'm wrong.

Scot: [3:39] Yeah. Wow. Lots of wasn't there. So we got through the the longshoreman thing. Right. And then isn't there a big budget thing where the government could shut down or are we is that been kicked into.

Jason: [3:53] It's kicked till post-election. It may still be in, there may be another budget thing in December. But again, like, depending on what changes in the House and Senate, like, that could be like a trivial additional continuing resolution or, you know, someone could go nuclear and try to shut down the government. So I think it is a risk.

Scot: [4:17] Yeah. Okay. I don't know. We'll see. So lots of mixed messages out there for retailers to try to parse there.

Jason: [4:25] Yeah, exactly. But we at least know what happened to Amazon in Q3.

Scot: [4:36] Amazon News. Your margin is their opportunity. Yeah, yeah. So on the eve of Halloween, Amazon announced their results. And coming into that report, Microsoft had reported kind of slowish cloud growth. Turns out they're having a hard time getting enough GPUs and they're really having to stretch to handle all their customers' needs, which you would think would be positive. But Wall Street is kind of because they also see this whole mixed signal thing. All they care about right now is short term signals. So they were kind of down on Microsoft. And then everyone and then Meta also reported and they had a great quarter, but then they said they're going to really ramp their spending on GPUs going into next year. So there's this really big kind of wall of worry around all this money on these GPUs, which are for AP.

Scot: [5:28] Artificial intelligence or ai and they're mostly nvidia chips so nvidia is off cycle so that i think they report in the 20s like right before thanksgiving so i'm going to be watching that one carefully so you know amazon is largely driven these days by aws so that was kind of feeding into that there's a lot of concern that amazon was either going to miss for a similar kind of thing like microsoft or they were going to announce they're just going to like buy an ungodly number of GPUs. So there was a lot of, I believe the stocks sold off going into the report, which was interesting. Usually Amazon kind of lifts a bit the day of the report. So those ended up being unfounded. They achieved an 11% overall revenue growth and operating income hit 17.4 billion and beat forecast by 18%. And that was the seventh consecutive quarter of operating income above guidance, which is good. So Jassy kind of like reset it low enough and has gotten better now that he's CEO of kind of managing expectations is kind of how I read that. And then the looking forward guidance was very well received. So looking at Q4, they kind of gave a band of seven to 11% growth. When you have 11% and you're going into Q4 and you're kind of showing 11%, that's good because a lot of people worry that they're going to project a slowdown Because when they do this, they've already got a month's worth of data. So in a way, Amazon being Amazon, they're pretty good at reading these tea leaves and kind of figuring out how the holiday is going to shape up.

Scot: [6:58] A couple of things I thought in the report I just wanted to call out for listeners. We've talked about this a little bit. This kind of really part of Jassy's era has been efficiencies. And he's really dug into the fulfillment part of Amazon. and it's been interesting to see the results. So they had a lot of progress on the cost of fulfillment and they attributed it to three areas. Number one, we've talked about this before, but they had this new regionalized inventory system where they're just getting better at spreading inventory and predicting demand across their fulfillment centers. So if they can predict, hey, it's getting cold in Chicago, we're gonna kind of balance some cold weather stuff there or anything in that regard. Obviously, that saves the money versus having to ship stuff across the country. So they've improved that over the last year, they've improved this system 25%. And it's interesting, I triple checked this because I thought I was hallucinating. I thought I had LLM bring, but they've, you know, many of these, these have resulted in 25% improvement. So this is not a typo.

Scot: [8:04] The, so when you get the product closer, not only is it lower distance to the customer, therefore lower costs, it's like in a closer quote unquote zone, but it also increases the number of products they can put in a box. So there are a lot of customers like you to get a daily Amazon box. And the more they can put in that JSON box every day, the better off there.

Scot: [8:25] Then they have really expanded the same day facilities, which results in more of the products being available same day. So they now have over 40 million customers a quarter benefiting from same day delivery. That's up 25% year over year, that number of customers that are having access and getting products delivered same day. And to deliver on this, they've built a bunch of new facilities and a lot of new processes increased. And that ends up really increasing customer satisfaction, conversion rates, and speed to reorder. And then the last one is robotics and automation. There was a lot of talk on the call and then some various notes and in the Q&A from Wall Street around this one fulfillment center in Shreveport. And that's what they call a quote unquote 12th generation system. So I think it's like their showcase where Amazon has put all their best automation ideas into this fulfillment center, and it is showing really promising results, which gets Wall Street excited because if they do it one, they can scale it across their network of north of 200 fulfillment centers. It'll take a long time, but these are the types of improvements that are pretty material. It also saw that fulfillment center and the things they do in there, which is lots of robotics and new ways of automating. It had a 25% reduction in the cost for fulfillment center cost per unit.

Scot: [9:43] That's pretty material. So let's say it costs $6 to ship one of these things. You can knock a dollar or two of that off. And this is Amazon and you're shipping some billions, tens, if not hundreds of billions of products. That is just basically margin that kind of falls to the bottom line.

Scot: [10:03] So together, these did help with that earnings beat. And they caused a somewhere in the four to 6%, let's call it 5% underage in what Wall Street was thinking shipping, total shipping spend would be. So, you know, the good news is they're making progress on these things. And it feels like it's still early days for, I think the regional, they're probably kind of at the end of that one. I think same day facilities, they have a lot more they can do there. And I think robotics, they're very early. So it feels like they've got another two or three years of runway for improving the economics of fulfillment.

Jason: [10:39] Yeah, I think in the press call after they released their earnings, the CFO even said that they believe there's headroom in all three. So they think they're going to continue to get additional efficiencies. And they talk a lot about those three things together, like fundamentally reducing the cost to serve is kind of the language for talking about all this stuff and what the average price is to get a box of goods to Jason's house.

Scot: [11:09] Yeah. Another theme that you'll kind of hear as Jason, I go through some of the pieces is this has really dramatically increased consumers ordering replenishables. So, so we'll talk about that.

Jason: [11:20] Yeah, yeah. So obviously the most interesting and important segment of Amazon's business is the retail part of the business. The numbers were all pretty favorable. So they hit $61.4 billion in revenue, which is a 7.2% year over year growth. It's a significant acceleration from the 4.6% growth in Q2. And it's a significant beat over Wall Street's expectations. It's like 3% over. So I think the revenue number was very encouraging. And a number of other retailers had reported and were saying that there were a lot of signals of the consumer slowing down. So this was, I think, surprising and well-received. Of course, listeners of this show will know you probably shouldn't care too much about revenue because revenue is a blend of the cost of goods for 1P sales and the take rate for 3P sales. So when we kind of are thinking of them as a pure retailer, the number we really like to know about is their GMV, their gross merchandise value, which is the value of all the goods they sell, whether it was on the marketplace or first party.

Jason: [12:31] And they don't tell us what that is, but…

Jason: [12:34] Citibank has released their estimates. Morgan Stanley's released their estimates. A couple other sites have released them. And in my pull of polls, the Morgan Stanley numbers are kind of right in the middle and most believable. And they have Q3 GMV in the United States going up 9.9%, so 10% essentially. In that same quarter, we know from the US Department of Commerce that core retail went up 3.6%. So Amazon grew almost three times as fast as the industry average, which, you know, Amazon's number one or number two are just retail out there. So that's super impressive. That's slightly lower GMV growth than they had in Q2, which was 11%. The number we'd most like to compare this to would be Walmart's number. Walmart doesn't report Q3 till November 19th, I want to say. So, so it'll be super interesting to look there. I would expect Walmart to come in somewhere between Amazon and the retail industry average. So above the retail industry, but below this 10%. So that in and of itself is super interesting. You know, Walmart probably beats the industry average. Amazon triples the industry average. Then we still have Timu Sheehan and TikTok shops out there growing faster than anyone's ever seen before. And so you've got, you know, Those five horsemen eating up most of the growth in the retail industry.

Jason: [14:03] One thing that did negatively surprise people a little bit was the mix of, which you alluded to, is the mix of 1P and 3P sales. So ordinarily for a long time, 3P sales are creeping up as a bigger and bigger chunk of the overall mix every year. I think it was 61% last quarter, maybe. And it dipped down this quarter to 60%. So that's the first time 1P sales have gained share over 3P sales at Amazon. And the management tells us the reason for that is increased demand for everyday essentials, right? So that's the cleaning products for your house, the, you know, affordable skincare products, the things you use in your bathroom and shower. Or all of those products are more often sold 1P than 3P on Amazon.

Jason: [14:57] And, you know, both because of the vibe session and the economic situation that I talked about earlier, and because Amazon's better at same-day delivery, they're winning more of these everyday essential trips. And that is shifting their mix slightly to 1P. In theory, it should also be eroding their margins because these items are lower margins. But Amazon did so well on the efficiencies and the cost to serve that you covered that those efficiencies more than made up for the lost margin from the slightly less profitable mix of products that they're selling with everyday essentials. So that's a super interesting trend. When you hear management talk about it, they're like, we love these everyday essentials, even if they are slightly lower margin because those customers are way more sticky and we get way more wallet share in the long run and the the more those orders we get the more volume we have to drive our.

Jason: [15:59] Cost to serve down and the lower our cost of serve, the more we can profitably fulfill all of this everyday essentials demand. And so this is a sort of a new flywheel for Amazon, if you will. But like one tangible proof point on this is they said something like when a customer sees a one-day delivery promise or same-day delivery promise, conversion rate is 20% better than when it's a two-day delivery promise. So kind of, you know, giving evidence to the fact that like consumers have an insatiable appetite for faster and faster delivery and the faster and cheaper they can deliver, the more they can sell.

Scot: [16:37] So- Where do you think they're taking that share from you? That's like Target and Walmart or like, you know, do you see any evidence of it?

Jason: [16:44] Target is totally possible based on the last couple of earnings calls, some grocery, the super vulnerable place that we'll talk about a little bit later is the traditional pharmacy. So Walgreens, Rite Aid, CVS, and then all the independent pharmacists. They're for sure taking share from those guys. And they talked about that in the earnings, which in pretty funny language. So I'll get to that in just a second. But it doesn't feel like it's coming completely at the expense of Walmart, because again, both Amazon and Walmart are growing faster than the industry average, but it's pretty much everyone else that sells everyday essentials that's dipping below. Side note, we're now seeing these Chinese direct-to-consumer companies start to lean into everyday essentials. So Timu has a ton of everyday essential goods on there. So the world has noticed that that's what consumers have an appetite for spending on right now.

Jason: [17:40] Interest rates are still a little high. People aren't moving houses. So people are not buying as much home improvement goods as they normally do. They're not buying as much, except for you and I are not buying as much consumer electronics as they normally do.

Jason: [17:52] And they're spending more on the center store grocery assortment. And so that's, you know, Amazon through great insight or luck or whatever combination you want to attribute it to, that shift to regionalization of their fulfillment center and this like laser focus on cost to serve has really positioned them to take advantage of this trend, where arguably four years ago, they wouldn't have been well positioned for this trend. They would have said this, that's all stuff that craps out that we can't realize a profit on and that we're discouraging sales on. Now they're encouraging sales on all this stuff. So that's interesting. And then the slightly, if there's a negative sentiment in the industry regarding all of this, it's, hey, 3P sales ticked down slightly, but the revenue that Amazon is earning from 3P sales went way up because Amazon has found a lot more fees to charge sellers than ever before. And so, you'll hear a lot of noise from the 3P seller community that they're, The overall, not the raw take rate, but the overall cost to sell on Amazon when all these fees and marketing services are factored in has never been higher and makes it harder than ever for three-piece sellers to truly be profitable.

Scot: [19:14] Yeah.

Jason: [19:14] So that's the story on online sales. I mentioned pharmacy another trend happening in our industry is you know the way pharmacies normally work is the traffic to a pharmacy is to get pick up your prescription and then while you're there you go oh I need paper towels and you buy paper towels by design they're the worst place to buy paper towels they don't have a great assortment and they they don't have a good price but you're already there to pick up your Lipitor prescription so you know you just want to save yourself a trip and you pick and you take them home from there. So the front of house of a pharmacy only works because of the back of house. And the back of house is under huge stress. There's like three companies called pharmacy benefit providers, and they get to dictate the price that a pharmacist gets reimbursed for every prescription they fill. And these pharmacy benefit providers are reimbursing the pharmacy less than the pharmacy is able to collect from the consumer. So on a lot of popular prescriptions, pharmacies are now at negative margins and all the chronic prescriptions, if you take something every day or every week, instead of getting a 30 day supply from Walgreens, that pharmacy benefit provider is making you get a 90 day prescription from mail order.

Jason: [20:35] So people are going to the pharmacy to pick up prescriptions less, which puts more stress on the front of the store. And then, of course, their lower overall profit, that 10% loss of traffic has a huge impact on their profits. And then they start freaking out about shrink and they lock up all the products and that chases even more customers out of store. And the pharmacies are kind of in a negative flywheel from all this. And Andy Jassy summed it up perfectly in one sentence on the earnings call. He said, brick and mortar pharmacies often require customers to make trips to forlorn physical venues with much of the selection behind locked shelves, wait in line for meds, and only to find out about pricing at the point of purchase. The largest mail order pharmacies offer delivery in five to 10 days. We think customers deserve better, which is a clear shot across the bow at the pharmacy industry. Amazon has doubled the number of cities that they do same-day pharmacy delivery to. But I actually think the big story here is not Amazon's prescription business. It's Amazon getting all this everyday essential traffic that used to go to the pharmacy in conjunction with the prescription business.

Jason: [21:52] That has other healthcare implications in the long run. a lot of people in America go to a pharmacist to get a vaccine. And if all these pharmacies close, you know, we got to figure out how we're going to get those vaccines and things like that. They, of course, do break out their physical stores. Physical stores for Amazon is almost exclusively Whole Foods at this point, and maybe a few Amazon Go stores left. And physical stores grew like 5% year over year, which again, on itself, that's better than the industry average. that's better than most other big grocery stores are growing. And that was also a beat versus the analysts that thought they were gonna be at 5.16 billion.

Jason: [22:32] Same story there. The mix is shifting to more essentials. And what's fascinating and interesting and controversial here is Whole Foods is a unique grocery concept. They have all of these food quality guidelines that dictate what products they will carry and what products they won't carry. And so they won't carry products that have artificial colors in them. They won't carry products that are sweetened with corn syrup, for example. And so the assortment in a Whole Foods is very different than the assortment in a Kroger or an Albertsons. And a lot of the Everyday Essentials volume is traditionally those products that Whole Foods chooses not to sell. So the fact that they're doing better at Everyday Essentials is interesting. But what's super interesting is in Chicago, where I live, Amazon opened yet another new grocery concept this month.

Scot: [23:25] Which is now like the fifth or sixth one.

Jason: [23:27] Yeah. So, yeah. So now called Amazon grocery. So they have, of course, Whole Foods, they have Amazon Go, they have Amazon Fresh. A few of these, they have multiple iterations of Amazon Fresh used to mean an online grocery store, and now it means a physical grocery store. And now they have this new concept, Amazon grocery. And the one and only Amazon grocery store is downstairs from a Whole Food in downtown Chicago, and it carries all the unhealthy stuff that Whole Foods isn't allowed to sell.

Scot: [23:59] So you go down for your Rice Krispie Treats.

Jason: [24:01] So it's literally, they carry like 3,500 SKUs and it's mostly Kraft and Hostess and Coke and Pepsi, right? And so it seems superficially, it seems very explicitly like go upstairs and get your organic produce and feel good about your purchases there, and then stop on your way out and get your guilty pleasures.

Jason: [24:25] From Amazon Grocery on the way out, right? And so, It's unclear. Did Amazon already own this real estate and it's a convenient place for them to test it? And Amazon believes that the world needs another, you know, small format grocery store with 3,500 SKUs. That strains credulity a little bit. Or is this an overt, you know, first step at eroding the Whole Foods quality promise that was, you know, part of the core mission when John Mackey started the company and the Amazon said they would respect when they took it over? Like don't know it's super interesting i would say you know i got back from grocery shop three weeks ago amazon was on stage at grocery shop and they talked about like you know how much they're leaning into grocery and they and how synergistic all these grocery offerings are and how they're unifying them all and then the week later the ceo of grocery resigned at amazon and they and this they revealed this new concept and it seems totally muddled to me so i'm not saying Amazon can't win at grocery, but it does not seem that there's a crystal clear hypothesis from Amazon as to what a winning grocery concept looks like at this point.

Scot: [25:39] Have you been in it?

Jason: [25:40] I have, I have. And in fact, I'll put a link in the show notes, but I uploaded a little video tour on LinkedIn, so you can, you can go check it out. It's, I would call it most similar to an Amazon Go store without the tech. So there's no just walk out. There is Amazon.

Scot: [25:55] It's like a convenience store kind of stuff.

Jason: [25:56] Yeah. It feels more like a 7-Eleven. There's a cafe, a small espresso bar in there. There's an Icy machine, so you can get your non-Swerpy branded Icy. And yeah, all the Twinkies and Apple Jacks you want.

Scot: [26:12] Nice. You have to hit that first before you go out to Whole Foods because by then you'll spend your whole paycheck. You don't have any money left for Rice Krispies.

Jason: [26:20] I would feel personal shame dragging that stuff around in my cart on my Whole Foods shop. So I feel like it's more likely to be on the way out to avoid the shame. But in fact, I took all these funny pictures because there's all these pictures about the ethical principles at Whole Foods. And it's like giant wall-size signs that say, eat good food. And then you go downstairs and it's like, buy more, get more Twinkies.

Scot: [26:49] Maybe it's a higher conversion rate for the people that are cheaters, Whole Foods cheaters.

Jason: [26:55] Yeah. Yeah. Again, there's probably a small cohort of people that Whole Foods is their own grocery store, but I feel like there's a lot more that are like my household where Whole Foods is definitely in our mix and there's a lot of products we only get from Whole Foods. But I have a nine-year-old son and like a lot of his preferences do not exist in the Whole Foods environment.

Scot: [27:13] He's not eating tofu potato chips.

Jason: [27:15] No, no. He wants the good Pringles.

Scot: [27:20] Cool on the aws side revenue rose 19 for 227.5 billion which kind of met expectations but they were just a little bit higher so it was like right in line so that wall street was thinking 20 to 21 but they came in at 19 so they didn't really get much heat over that because they did talk about the strong demand they've they've started talking about a backlog or kind of a bookings backlog so So that was interesting. I saw a wall sheet analyst kind of do this whole thing around it and felt like there's a lot of positivity in the number that they gave there.

Scot: [27:55] And yeah, so the margin there was very nice. So 38% operating margin. That's not even a gross margin. That's a net margin. And they saw their own benefits from cost efficiencies. They're getting more life out of their servers. Imagine what's going on here is those workloads that are not GPU bound. They're probably flat right now because everyone's obsessed with moving everything over to GPUs. So they're probably having to spend a lot less on traditional CPU type things and getting more life out of the machines than maybe they initially had thought they would. Let's see the they were also supply constrained they did call out they have their own chip that can do some inference and they're they're deploying those as quick as they can and they're also supply constrained on the nvidia chipsets they did say they're gonna spend you know they prepared wall street to buckle up for more capex that were on this one time in a lifetime demand curve so that was interesting and but no one really freaked out about it so that was good, what'd you see on the advertising business?

Jason: [28:58] Yeah. Well, I would just add that, that 38% margin that was up from 30% the quarter before. So that, that was a.

Scot: [29:05] Yeah, that's material. Yeah.

Jason: [29:06] Uh, very, very meaningful. And, and I think nobody freaked out over the CapEx because they're like, Hey, we, we thought like regular AWS was like a pretty good demand curve. And, and the AI AWS demand curve is ahead of where AWS was at this point. And so I think they think there's a lot of headroom. It was interesting. They used to talk a lot about how we really only have scratched the surface on cloud compute that like, you know, some ridiculously low percentage, like only like 5% of all the workloads are in the cloud at all. So, you know, traditional AWS has all this headroom. And I assume they still believe that's true, but they don't bother even talking about it because there's so much demand for all this AI compute at the moment. So advertising, I always love talking about right after AWS, because I feel like there's this common notion that AWS drives Amazon. And you said it earlier, like all the analysts think that Amazon's at AWS with some annoying side projects. So the advertising business also had a good run. Exact same growth rate, 19%. The difference is 19% is an acceleration of their advertising business, where it's a site deceleration of their historic AWS rate.

Jason: [30:26] So that 19% growth gets them $14.3 billion this quarter. So if you look at their last four quarters, they're now at a $58.7 billion run rate, or not even run rate, trailing 12 months. So nearly $60 billion in ads. To put that in perspective, the trailing 12 months at AWS is like $100 billion, $102 billion. So AWS is a bigger business in terms of revenue, no question. But the ads business is growing fast. They're adding a lot of advertising products, like almost all this advertising is still just in support of search. It's mostly sponsored search ads on the website. But of course, Amazon is winning more eyeballs with their media, right? And their NFL stuff is going really well. Their original programming is going really well. And they're increasingly putting ads in all that content. So like this really is like $60 billion of search ads. And there's still a lot more headroom in, you know, monetizing all of this other media that Amazon is increasingly succeeding in. And so that's interesting. Unlike AWS, which is highly CapEx intensive and, you know, constrained commodity because of these silicone chips, the ads are very low CapEx, right? And so they don't tell us what the gross margin is for the ads, but let's call it 70% gross margin. There's no cost of goods, right?

Scot: [31:55] Yeah.

Jason: [31:55] Let's call it 99%.

Scot: [31:57] Okay.

Jason: [31:58] Very popular. Yeah. They pay a lot of sales, guys, right? Like that's the one, that's, that's the one cost. And I think those are the only sale guys that don't get fired if they don't go to the office, by the way. But so 60 billion, 58 billion in revenue at 70% gross margin is 41 billion in earned income, operating income that they've made over the last 12 months for the advertising business. If we go back and apply the 38% gross margin, which is the highest gross margin they've ever achieved and not what they actually achieved over the last 12 months and apply that 38% growth margin to the last 12 months of revenue on AWS, it earned $39 billion worth of operating income. So like in the most conservative version of this, advertising is contributing more dollars of profit to Amazon than AWS's and growing faster.

Scot: [32:48] Yeah. I 100% believe that because the cost structure for AWS is pretty, pretty big.

Jason: [32:53] Yeah. Yeah.

Scot: [32:54] And it's going to get worse, which is amazing that they popped up to 38.

Jason: [32:59] Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a testament. They do a lot of stuff really well. So that is the advertising story. Scott, I know the future of Alexa is very near and dear to your heart.

Scot: [33:12] It is. And I've had some interactions with Amazon in like the last year. I won't go into specifics. And I came away thinking, man, the company seems like different. Like they're just like not as engaged and the people you meet are very… Company kind of feeling, which is way different than, you know, when I was at Channelvisor dealing with Amazon, you would meet a VP and he or she would know exactly how everything at the company worked. And it was like freakishly, you know, freakishly informed about everything. So, you know, case in point, they're coming out. They've been working on this for a long time. At first, it was going to be kind of, you know, late summer, fall, and then they moved it to kind of late to catch holiday. And now they just announced that they're delaying till 2025, that they're not going to have any kind of LM type technology on Alexa. They started with having, saying they're going to do their own in-house kind of a model. Then they moved to Anthropic. But what they're doing is they're finding some problems with it that in the beta testing, I read an article that said it likes to show off. So instead of just answering a question, it will give you all this extra expository. It just kind of like basically has the Jason version of the LLM.

Jason: [34:26] All right. You were thinking it.

Scot: [34:31] Alexa, what time is it? Fascinating you asked. The nuclear standard for time began and then it like, it can't understand basic things. So it's gotten, it's better at answering questions Alexa currently can't ask, like, you know, certain facts and stuff but it it's not good at turning your lights on and off and those types of things so they're having a really hard time with it and they even got someone they weren't on the record but they i think this is in what's the one that's in seattle starts with a v i want to say vibe that's not it anyway they they got some amazon folks to say it's because because we have a management layer that's bloated and no one can make any decisions above us and they're constantly jerking around what they want the product to be.

Jason: [35:12] It's not a two pizza team.

Scot: [35:14] No, no. The two pizza team thing is not happening on the Alexa product. So that's pretty interesting that they seem. And then I think Jassy just basically nuked the leader and put a new leader in there. And they're doing all this return to office stuff, I think, as a way of kind of thinning out the employee base. I think next year, we're going to see them get pretty serious about reducing headcount in a lot of groups. So it's going to be a lot of companies have gone through that. And I don't think Amazon's done as much as they probably could based on how slow they're moving on some things.

Jason: [35:48] Yeah, yeah. It is going to be interesting. I'm a little disappointed that the devices haven't gotten better faster. I think you and I both expected, like with all the amazing things that are happening in the outside ecosystem of LLMs that like, we can't figure out a way to make these devices better. But, you know, I think we talked about it in the last earnings call that there's this kind of more advanced concept of what AI can do called agent-based AI or agentic AI.

Jason: [36:22] And there was a little bit of a hint in the earnings call when Andy was talking about this ecosystem. And he said, you know, all these LLMs out there are amazing. They're super good at processing information and summarizing information. But what we haven't seen yet and we think is going to be a huge part of the AI capability set is systems that can take action on that information. So actually do stuff for you, not just tell you stuff. And he optimistically said, and we think we're going to be pretty good at that. And so that, you know, my interpretation there is, hey, we at Amazon are going to lean way into agentic AI. They kind of have to because they've already been beaten in the first generation of LLM. So, you know, it kind of makes sense at this point to try to leapfrog. And of course, the guy that invented the concept of agentic AI, the super credible AI scientist, Andrew Ng, is on the board of Amazon now. So like none of this is particularly surprising.

Scot: [37:29] Yeah. Yeah. So you, you wanted to bring up something that a lot of clients are talking to you about, which, which is interesting.

Jason: [37:36] A lot of my clients have noticed this, this intersection of three very scary events that happened in the world of retail last week. So event number one is that Scott Wingo deleted the Google icon from his dock in his iPhone and replaced it with a perplexity icon.

Scot: [37:57] True.

Jason: [37:58] So, Scott is all in on perplexity as his primary search engine. Like, I'm less relevant, but I totally agree. Like, it's amazing. It's my daily driver for search.

Jason: [38:11] And I think a lot of other early adopters have all now found it to be far, far more useful than traditional Google search. So shortly after Scott announced to the world that perplexity had beaten Google, OpenAI launched their first true kind of search competitor called ChatGBT Search. For me, the jury is still out on if ChatGBT Search is better or even at parity with perplexity. It's way better than any other OpenAI at doing search type things. I still think at the moment I prefer perplexity, but if you do 10 searches, you're going to prefer the answer for both of them for different things. And so this was the second big announcement was OpenAI getting directly into the search. And then in response to that, perplexity unveiled a new feature. They unveiled a public feature, which is shopping links in the search. So now, you know, you do a perplexity search for best Thunderbolt monitor to add to my new MacBook M4, and it comes back and gives you a bunch of answers. And at the bottom of that page, it gives you links to go to product detail pages of various retailers that are selling those monitors.

Jason: [39:29] So that's interesting. But then in beta, they've added the ability to buy the product right in the perplexity interface without ever leaving. So what we would call native checkout. And I'm not in the beta, so I haven't gotten to do it hands-on yet. But I've been watching a lot of videos from people that are in the beta. And not all, but a disproportionate amount of those links are to buy now from Amazon. So they very clearly have some kind of partnership with Amazon. And, you know, if the world were to move to these kind of AI searches instead of Google, the two major things would happen. It would totally break SEO and keyword research and all the things that are a core part of marketing today. And number two, you know, it would be super important to win that buy box and that pull position in these new search engines, this new shopping surface that didn't exist for most of the world a month ago. So this is fascinating. I feel like this is just the first evolution of a battle we're going to see play out, at least for the next year.

Jason: [40:37] Couple of years, but if you're a retailer and you weren't thinking about, you know, what happens when all this, this search traffic moves off of Google and onto these new, new surfaces, you know, it's, it's, it's time to start putting some contingency plans in place and at least think about how you're going to participate. And if you're a product or a content provider, you need to start thinking about how, you know, what your monetization strategy is and how you're going to optimize, you know, so your products show up at, you know, for their fair share of voice or better and all those sorts of things so it's.

Scot: [41:08] Yeah it's called the aeo so the ceo of perplexity he's a fun interview i've watched a lot of his interviews now and he calls it an answer engine instead of searching in which is really appropriate that's why i like it because it just like gives you an answer and then so instead today google gives you like some things you have to figure out you go to 10 sites you open up 10 tabs three of them are garbage seven are okay then you kind of get to an answer after a lot of work this gives you the answer and then says well here's the supporting stuff if you want to dig in further so yeah so then to optimize it he calls it aeo and they're actually seeing people do this and they're they're really tweaking you know the sites to make sure that it's more llm friendly and and whatnot which is fascinating i wonder how the the pay on perplexity works because where are your payment credentials being stored is something i'd really want to understand so that's why i'm desperate to get.

Jason: [42:01] In the beta because those are all.

Scot: [42:02] That Like.

Jason: [42:03] Normally when companies that aren't in commerce space first launch a native search, There's a bunch of deficiencies.

Scot: [42:12] Yeah.

Jason: [42:13] When will I get it? And what are the return policies? And how do I bundle multiple products? And what about, can I use my digital wallet? And all these things. There are now people that have figured it out. TikTok Shops has a pretty decent experience for native checkout. And so, yeah, I'm super interested to dive in all that with perplexity. I have not.

Scot: [42:35] That's apples and oranges. They're like using it up at their lair, though. like you're actually selling on TikTok. Like it's the, it's like a marketplace. But this one, they're like sending the order down into Amazon or wherever. Like that's, they've got to be doing that. You know, how, is it Anthropic? Yeah, Claude can now take over your screen. I wonder if they're doing that. Like they're storing your credentials and then insert them, like crawling it in.

Jason: [42:55] I doubt it. Could be, I kind of doubt it.

Scot: [42:58] Super not PCI compliant.

Jason: [42:59] No, and to be honest, the Anthropic demo is cool because it can do it at all. Like it doesn't do it well enough to solve a real world problem yet. And so I'm kind of assuming all the examples of checkouts I've seen are retailers that I know syndicate APIs, right? And so I actually think this isn't using TikTok Shops native checkout, but TikTok has a native checkout in TikTok ads where they already have a Amazon API integration. And it seems most likely that that's what they're leveraging is that they're, they've gone out and said, what retailers are, you know, enabling checkout in, in native ad formats? And we'll, we'll, you know, position ourselves as another ad platform for those, those checkout engines. Yeah, I'm with you. It's to me, the analogy I like to use is perplexity gives you a meal, whereas Google gives you a recipe.

Scot: [44:00] Yep. True.

Jason: [44:01] And I feel like, you know, the world has expanded from 10,000 SKUs to 800 million SKUs, like the recipes are now too complicated.

Scot: [44:11] Yeah. Cool. I agree. It is. And there's even worse than that. There's bad ingredients, right? Like the, there's so much spam inside of Google now that it's just like really hard to find anything good a lot of times.

Jason: [44:22] Yeah. I will admit like you've just hit my, my greatest fear about all of this. I feel like the perplexity search experience is so awesome right now, but they're not monetizing it. I mean, I, I pay 20 bucks a month, but you really don't need to. And I think back to every other cool technology that you and I have adopted, and they all started before monetization and they were all cool. And over time, the owner of that technology has turned up the dial more and more on monetization to the point where it really arose the experience, right? So, search, social, all these things were great pre-monetization. And, you know, now, you know, there's no organic content on social. There's no organic product listings that you're going to see on the first page of Amazon. Like, they've all been overwhelmed by the monetization. And so my fear is, as great as perplexity is right now, that when they really land on their, you know, that it's kind of the first hit of crack for free. And that when they eventually land on their monetization model, it'll be inferior and more noisy, as has happened in the past.

Scot: [45:33] Yeah, we'll see.

Jason: [45:34] Yeah. And one last side note on that. I'll tell you who wins here is Jeff Bezos because he has a lot of Amazon stock. He has perplexity stock and Amazon has a big investment in Anthropic. So it kind of feels like, you know, whoever wins here, Jeff Bezos is going to do okay.

Scot: [45:53] Jeff would not cry to see Google taken down. A lot of people in tech would not be upset to keep Google taken down a peg.

Jason: [46:00] I know you know this. Like many of our listeners may not know that Jeff made billions of dollars on his initial investment in Google. He was one of the angel investors in Google.

Scot: [46:11] Yeah, he famously identified him as a threat early on and wouldn't let anyone at Amazon talk to them or share any kind of – they never installed the Pixel or anything. They wouldn't tell them what – they wouldn't buy ads on there for a long time.

Jason: [46:25] Yeah, now they're the largest advertiser, $18 billion.

Scot: [46:28] Yeah.

Jason: [46:29] It's a crazy world, Scott. But that seems like a great recap for this week. Hopefully you found value in it. And if you did so, there is still room for more reviews on our iTunes page. So Apple has called us. They've said, hey, you're an enormously popular podcast. You have so many great reviews that we're expanding the capacity so that more listeners can jump on iTunes and leave us a five-star review.

Scot: [46:55] Thanks for joining us, everyone. Hope you enjoyed the show.

Jason: [46:58] And until next time, happy commercing.

EP320 - News, First Half Recap, Early Holiday Preview

http://jasonandscot.com

0:23 Welcome Back After Hiatus 2:51 Upcoming Events in Retail 7:28 GroceryShop 16:02 Retail Growth Trends 21:28 Concerns for Holiday 2024 30:27 The De Minimis Provision 40:27 TikTok's Impact on E-commerce

In this episode of The Jason and Scot Show, we discuss the current state of retail and e-commerce.

We analyze macroeconomic factors impacting the retail landscape, noting a 3.4% growth in core retail and a maturation of e-commerce, dominated by giants like Amazon and Walmart. We address consumer sentiment heading into the holiday season and the potential influences of the upcoming election and interest rate changes.

The episode also covers the role of AI in enhancing personalization experiences, challenges faced by dollar stores, and supply chain issues. We conclude with insights into Amazon’s recent earnings and their strategies to engage younger consumers through TikTok Shops.

Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, Chief Commerce Strategy Officer at Publicis, and Scot Wingo, CEO of GetSpiffy and Co-Founder of ChannelAdvisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing.

Download the complete 54 page deck of all my insights from the US Dept of Commerce Retail Data for the first half of 2024 here https://rgeek.co/retail2024

Transcript [0:23] Welcome Back After Hiatus Jason   [0:23]Welcome to the Json and Scott show this is episode 320 being recorded on Monday september 16th 2024 I'm your host Jason retail gee Goldberg and as usual I'm here with your co-host Scott Wingo. Scot   [0:38]Hey Jason and welcome back after a very long time, Jason and Scott show listeners Jason our last show was an early May so it's been about a little over a 4-month hiatus and when people ask me I always blame you do you blame me. Jason   [0:57]I do blame you and I'm bitter because in my mind. Nobody's really complaining to you but like I I've gone called out on stage by like I've I've been heckled by people that are like what are you going to do a new show. Scot   [1:15]It's part of our it's it's a Nintendo like strategy where you you dribble you know if you could really constrain Supply scarcity that drives demand so yeah. Jason   [1:25]Yeah it it we are we are playing 3 dimensional chess in a world of checkered players. Scot   [1:31]Exactly the the real reason is as Chief digital Innovation retail and payments and grocery officer your title's gotten bigger and your your more famous your allies on a plane I can never record because I'm like how about now he's like Paris how about now Australia how about now India so you've been flying all over the world. Jason   [1:52]I sadly I have been it does feel like travel is back there there have been more International trips this year than any year before coid so I I can I can only partially deny that accusation. Scot   [2:08]Cool well we're glad that we have you here for for an hour give us an update what are you any uh show you know what's going on out in the world of retail as you've been expanding the globe for the Json and Scott show. Jason   [2:20]Yeah it's been another Super interesting year for retail we'll we'll certainly get into some of what we think are the key topics that have been planned out this year but I have attended a bunch of events I I can't even remember which ones where since this this last show visited a bunch of customers out in the field which is always great learning new things from them [2:51] Upcoming Events in Retail Jason   [2:40]but the upcoming show is in early October is grocery shopping in Las Vegas so I'll be moderating a panel on. AI enabling Next Generation personalization, at at that show which I always look forward to to grocery shop and then a week later they're they're shop talk is moving their show their other stuff to Chicago so they're going to have their first, fall shop talk that will be in my backyard in Chicago so I'll be curious to see how if the world wants another another iteration of shop talk every year. Scot   [3:18]Yeah give us the behind-the-scenes did you like throw down the gauntlet and said shop talk must move to Chicago or I'm not going to attend or and run all the speaking stuff. Jason   [3:28]I basically did that with everything I told every client that they had come to Chicago I told shop talk and I told you you had to come here to record the podcast and yeah you'll note we haven't had a lot of podcasts and you know I still have the same 3 customers here I've always had. Scot   [3:44]But you got to show them to me for at least that's a 1 w. Jason   [3:46]I did but they really just added a show they're just looking for more Revenue so like it seems like it's probably not. Not just me but I feel like your LinkedIn feed has been more active than me and mostly with accolades for for the the fund that you helped kick off. Scot   [4:05]Yeah yeah so the just to update everybody I'm in a post spiffy world so started spiffy in 2014 and then, you know decided to to we got to kind of north of a 60-ish million run rate which is plenty big lots of employees lots of things going on and I had started this little side hustle well first of all I started this thing for our little local ecosystem here called the tweener list in 2015 which was just a little passion project and then started a little fund around that called the tweener fund which invests in early stage startups so I've I've really enjoyed that and decided to, move on from spiffy and make this my full-time gig so have been really enjoying doing that and actually have. I'm sure you do this where you have a list of things you're kind of like want to learn about and you can hardly ever get to it and I've been doing a lot of that the last 4 weeks and 1 of the big 1 is AI I've been going really deep on AI and it's been been a lot of fun to play around with all the cool new stuff going on there and I got a couple interesting ideas I'm not going to reveal anything but there's some interesting if you think from a AI native remember how we used to talk about mobile native well now thinking AI native I think there's some interesting things that could happen in the world of e-commerce so I'm going to I may go back to thinking more about e-commerce so we'll see. Jason   [5:23]Come on back though we're we're waiting for you the water is fine man they're they're for your point there's a lot of super interesting stuff the grocery shop will be fun a a show after that that I'm looking forward to is NRF because you know they have this Innovation Pavilion and they've kind of upped the the, rigger around recruiting exhibitors at The Innovation Pavilion this year and I think it's going to it's a big year for Innovation so, probably be a cool time for all of us to meet in the New York in January with global warming it's not even cold anymore. Scot   [5:58]Not been there not too long ago and it's still pretty darn cold for this North Carolina. Jason   [6:04]Oh okay fair enough fair enough I'm just last year was the first time it snowed in like 2 years in New York at at in her uh and then. Scot   [6:10]Okay yeah yeah last time I remember trudging through like 6 inches to get to your hotel which was painfully far away. Jason   [6:17]I mean that's yeah that's been my normal life so it's been weird that you haven't had to take the heavy coat to New York so although I wouldn't recommend that if you go to New York in January I'd bring that vote uh. And, I feel like in addition to everything else I know we're going to jump into the retail but all the Apple software updates dropped today so cool new icons and emojis and and delayed chats so I can have, like Emoji based chats hit Scott Wingo at every hour of the day now it's amazing. Scot   [6:48]Nice I look forward to that at 4:00 a.m. I'll have my do not disturb on to counteract your your attack. Jason   [6:53]Yeah although I may need you talk about new things you want to learn 1 of the things I want to learn is how to make Do Not Disturb work right in the the modern app like the system because I feel like all the focus modes have made it complicated. Scot   [7:05]Yeah I have to have you know that that kind of funny YouTube where the dad puts on 6 seat belts that's me putting on do not disturb I have to do the physical thing check the moon do my watch hit D and D in a profile and then that's that that combination of things I don't know which of them does it but that seems to stop everything. [7:28] AI in Grocery Shopping Jason   [7:23]Yes I feel like I'm in a similar boat but it would be interesting to figure out how to do it for as intended. Scot   [7:29]Yeah or just we know it works so just keep doing it do so just give us a preview of grocery shop can AI do better recommendations than kind of the old school way we used to do it. Jason   [7:42]So 1 would hope certainly it can do it at greater scale than we used to do it there's some anecdotal evidence that it's. Better it you know part of it I'm I'm curious to talk to some of these folks So So Meta will be on my panel. They they have a strong POV you know what's going on in the digital ad space right now is all the the ad platforms are trying to talk you into going hands off the wheel and turning over. The bidding to their AI engines and I would say at the moment it's an uneven playing field there like if I if I talk to my. Performance media folks they'll tell you that the the AI robots from some of the platforms are very effective and tend to outperform a manual bidding and on other platforms that they they wildly do not so. Jason   [8:33]That it'll be interesting to kind of hear their perspective 1 of the panelists is hungryroot, which to me is a super interesting example they they're truly doing AI based recommendation so they're essentially they're a ger. That is mainly filling out your whole cart for you proactively with AI based. Recommendations so you manicure a Char a cart that they recommend to you versus you hunting and pecking for each individual item and putting it in your cart and they they have some pretty interesting sales metrics using that methodology so they're all in, there you might almost think of them as like the Stitch fix of food and so they'll they'll be interesting to hear, and then my friend Ben from Endeavor and Endeavor may be familiar to some listeners not to others they're the largest adult beverage and hospitality company in Australia. And so they they have a nationwide chain of beer and wine stores that are doing some really interesting personalization hubs and kind of Shifting all of their customer touch points to to 1 to 1 so. I'll be curious to hear how effective they all claim to be. Scot   [9:47]How do these it seems like you're going to need some training data like how do they Kickstart that do they look at like your email or credit card data to kind of get an idea for what you like or they just kind of start you at a demographic Baseline and build from there or do you know. Jason   [10:01]Yeah well so in many cases you've been a customer of theirs for a long time right so they have you you have a significant amount of personal data I mean Walmart launched a predictive cart feature, in January that's in beta so I think it's only available to a select group of. Of Walmart Plus members but yeah it you it's trained on all of th those members pass purchases leading up to the launch of that product. Um so I yeah good question what signals do they use for a net new customer but I think the first crop where customers where they they already had a significant history. Scot   [10:40]Got it cool well that's gonna be a good panel riveting it's also pretty wild they have them so close together now that's like 10 days you're gonna have to kind of like Zip back home rest for a couple days and jump in. Jason   [10:50]I I do I was going to zip back home anyway so it's not an inconvenience for me but I my heart does go out to all the the shop talk folks that that have responsibilities of both shows because that I'm certain is not fun for them. Scot   [11:02]Cool which of the shop talks is bigger now the. Jason   [11:09]Shop talk is still the biggest show that's their March show um and it's it's north of 10,000 people so it might have been like 11,000 this year I'm not sure they, release an official number so hopefully I'm not disclosing something proprietary and grocery shop is only about half that size. So think closer to 5 500 attendees and then this fall shop talk this will be the first time so so. All all bets are off I I certainly wish them no ill will but part of me thinks it's a it's a big lift to get people. To add yet another event to their schedules. Scot   [11:48]Yeah maybe the Fallen will be more Regional like you know folks in the midwest or east. Jason   [11:53]Yeah I mean that that would be my initial assumption but you know they've they've been able to build up some really good shows in the past so so you know we'll see how they do with this 1 I certainly, would like to see a good show in Chicago they're in as you would remember in the old days you know there was like internet retailer here which still exists but I would argue it's it's probably well past its prime. Problem is when you did the orientation and used to teach everyone how to do e-commerce on the first day. Scot   [12:20]Amazon yeah that was fun that was they were like well you do this and I was like well how many people come and they're like I usually 100 and I did it and there's like 700 people say dude you vastly underestimated your crowd size at this thing the um. Jason   [12:32]I know I know you're a big draw. Scot   [12:34]Yeah well of course the uh and what was always funny is people would want to meet I forget what hotel it was either Hyatt, or a Hilton and there was 4 of them around that convention center and like No 1 could ever find each other at that that Hotel chain because they know 1 realized they all had the same name I'm sure that's still a problem. Was always funny to watch the chaos ensue. Jason   [12:54]Yeah. Scot   [12:55]The only thing works is in Las Vegas when you're at the Mandalay Bay when the hotel is called the hotel and the bars called the bar it's like a whose first kind of scenario trying to get. Jason   [13:04]Yeah I'm sure they thought that was really clever when they. Scot   [13:07]Yeah that was the worst worst naming. Jason   [13:08]When they first named it yeah. Scot   [13:11]Cool well you guys have been waiting for it and we are recording this mid-september all of our friends and Retail and e-commerce are making their final changes to their sites they're implementing their new features they're putting new vendors in place and going through the final QA test, before the big October code freeze so. This is when the Pod turns to really thinking about a holiday of 24 it's a fun to believe that we're already here this fast and Jason to tee that up let's set the table a little bit you put out a really interesting kind of adjacent Mega deck on LinkedIn that was really good and I thought maybe we could go through a couple slides of that and kind of tee up, you know how the year has gone so far and then that'll take us into kind of a little bit of a prediction of how holiday 24 is going to shape up. Jason   [13:58]Yeah yeah yeah happy to do it thanks man so maybe setting the table. I don't want to go back and get too deep we'll put a link to the deck so anyone that wants it's like 54 pages of data visualizations about about the Commerce industry so anyone's welcome to download it and check for themselves but the the highest level metric that I like to think about is this thing that NRF calls core retail so that's, all of retail sales from the US Department of Commerce US Census Data uh except restaurants Gas and Automobiles and. Jason   [14:33]If you go back in time and you say how how much does core retail grow year-over-year for the last 20 years core retail grew about 3.9% a year. And then of course we had this this huge anomaly more recently which was Co. And you know I like to joke that like well you know some people feel like oh man those were really hard years for retail what they forget is we mailed 5 trillion dollars in extra cash to everyone and didn't let them spend any of that on flights or Taylor Swift tickets. And so those were actually the greatest growth years in the history of retail like we like the the peak year was like 14% growth for core retail. So we had that this like Giant mountain of unusual growth 3 years that were twice as big as the normal 3.9% growth, and then 2023 happened and 2023 was right back to the average 3.9% again, and so now we're halfway through 2024 and we're actually below that average a little bit so we're at 3.4% growth year to date. Which is you know meaningfully off from 3.9% like that you know these are these are big numbers so that's 2.9 trillion dollars worth of sales year to date. Jason   [15:50]And the you know. [16:02] Retail Growth Trends Jason   [15:53]When we look at holiday I I mean we'll we'll talk about it in a minute but you know that's kind of setting the the table for retail for holiday but of course. People on this podcast are probably particularly interested in e-commerce and will know that historically at least in the modern era e-commerce has grown much faster. So the problem with talking about the average growth rate of e-commerce is of course it only started about 24 years ago and so it's. You know the the rate of growth has has decreased over time if you look at the last 24 years e-commerce is growing 17% a year versus that 3.9% for retail. Over the last 10 years right before coid e-commerce was growing at 12.4% a year. Jason   [16:37]So I kind of tell people think about you know e-commerce typically growing at 12% a year retail typically growing at 4% a year is kind of the. The the basic ratios so 4 times faster but this year 2024, retail is only growing at 3.4% and e-commerce is only growing at 7.5% so still twice as fast growth but a meaningful slowdown from the, historic average and you know at the risk of of giving away a spoiler. I I don't think that's like some bounce because of a spike during Co I actually think it's just an indication of the maturing of. Of e-commerce and e-commerce is a you know increasingly big chunk of of the whole retail pie it's. E-commerce is 21.8% of core retail so almost 22% so you know we'll spend over 7 trillion dollars this year and you know well over a trillion of it will be e-commerce. Scot   [17:38]Interesting cool so that's the full year. Jason   [17:41]Yeah well. Scot   [17:43]Basically kind of an average year. Jason   [17:45]So so last, yeah so so well so last year e-commerce had already started slow down it it grew again the average was about 12% it grew 10% last year and we're only growing 7.5% year to date this year. Scot   [17:59]Okay got it okay. Jason   [18:01]But. As I keep pointing out to people the story depending on who you are the story is either vastly better or worse than that those industry averages I just shared because the real story of of retail in 2024 is. This this concept of bifurcation right that there are 5 retailers that are vastly outperforming those industry averages. And they are eating up all of the growth in the industry so these 5 retailers represent 51% of all that growth so if you're 1 of those 5 retailers, you're having a great year if you are not 1 of those 5 retailers you're having a way worse than average year in in most cases so that's, Amazon which alone represents 16% of all retail growth it's Walmart which represents 15% of all retail growth, and it's it's Tik Tok which, you know was well under a billion dollars in sales last year and is trending towards twenty billion dollars in sales this year so they're the fastest growing retail, in the history of mankind and then rounding out these top 5 Growers are the the fastest growing return history of mankind from the last 2 years T-Mobile and shien so, it's kind of T-Mobile Sheen Tik Tok Walmart and Amazon's world and the rest of us are just living in it which is you know somewhat alarming for the rest of retail. Scot   [19:26]Yeah yeah definitely is it seems like those the chinese-based guys seems like they're taking share from somebody but it's not Amazon is it dollar stores because it's kind of like this convenience-oriented lower price kind of stuff right. Jason   [19:42]Yeah so it it it it's it's inexpensive variety Goods the, it it very likely is taking share from from the the dollar stores the dollar stores have not fared well which historically, you know there's there's some economic headwinds there's a thing going on in the United States that I I like to call A vibe session which means, some of the the economic fundamentals are actually pretty decent but people are really, consumer sentiment is down and people are really cutting back on their spending there's a lot of evidence that people are trading down and and trying to be more frugal, and that kind of climate normally has favored the dollar stores and yet you know they're they're definitely performing below these, these industry averages so certainly a chunk of of the Tik Tok team mushy and growth um is coming at their expense. Some of the sheen growth is coming at the expense of luxury which you know historically luxury has been been insulated from downturns in the market but you know we're starting to see. Some softness in their earnings and for sure softness in their guidance. So you know the you know people that would have bought more designer stuff maybe they're still buying some designer things but they're mixing it in with really affordable fashion from. From shien like I I am sure Amazon is losing some sales to Tik Tok shops that they would like to have but for your point. Jason   [21:08]Amazon still you know growing much faster than the rest of the market and so yeah it's not it's not eroding Amazon's any share it's just eroding their Tam. [21:28] Concerns for Holiday 2024 Scot   [21:19]Got it okay so that's the setup so e-commerce has slowed down a bit retails kind of doing its thing what what does that mean for holiday. Jason   [21:29]Yeah so I I have become Debbie Downer I am concerned about holiday this year, so if we just kind of extrapolate out these Trends again 3.4% growth is below our historic average so if something dramatically didn't turn around if consumer sentiment didn't get a lot better. For this holiday you would expect this to be a slightly soft. Holiday and I I really think this trend of winners and losers is likely to continue through holidays so I think you're going to see a handful of retailers perform really well holiday at the expense of everyone else and I. I I think on average that's going to mean that revenue is kind of similar to traditional holiday growth. But I I suspect that that's that margins, will be even further eroded than usual so so usually for Holiday retail grows about 4.3% e-commerce grows at 12.9% I don't think we'll see either of those numbers for holiday this year and I think. Jason   [22:34]You know if if retail grows at 3.7% and Ecom grows at 8% you know I still think you're going to see Amazon Walmart and Tik Tok grab, disproportionate share of that holiday spend which is going to be bad news, for a lot of other folks and those are just kind of the macro Trends you have to layer in that that there's a couple of reasons to to be worried about this holiday regardless of the trends going into this holiday so. We have a different calendar a number of days in the holiday season every year, and this is our worst year this is the year when we have the fewest days and holiday which actually you know historically does depress sales if there's fewer days to shop then then we sell less stuff and so this is the shortest holiday season that we ever get, and historically an election year is not favorable to Holiday spend right so traditionally there's some some anxiety and you know. Competition for attention, that plays into these November elections that impacts holiday and I I think you know this will be the most polarized election ever and so I think it's you know no matter what the outcome is half the country is going to be pretty depressed and that that likely you know translates into not an awesome holiday so so we got some things working against us. Scot   [23:53]Yeah so if that's the headwinds I'll throw in a Tailwind so as a our celebrated CNBC junkie the all they talk about is the Fed meeting tomorrow where you know it's pretty clear the fed's going to lower interest rates and the big question is is it going to be a quarter point or half a point I think I I I'm not a prognost prognosticator on that I think whatever they do it's going to be wildly popular and relief a lot of this kind of interest rate pressure we've everything's been on so even if it's only a quarter point I think it'll be somewhat euphoric for the market and for for hopefully for consumers to feel like interest rates are coming down a little bit so maybe that'll like bump start some house buying and selling and they'll be a little bit more liquidity in the market so so I'm going to think of that as more of a Tailwind so there's some positivity going on there do you worry about the election because I think it's just going to take forever to figure out who won and, everyone's going to contest it and it's gonna be like this unknown thing for a very long time so we'll see how that goes. Jason   [24:55]Yeah and you live in a swing state so I can only imagine what's happening to your media. Scot   [24:59]Yeah we just kind of we can't even like the male is an inch thick full of like Gunk and you kind of have to sort through all the stupidity I'm not a political person to get to like you know the bill and make sure you pay it and that kind of stuff and then the you know, at the TV is just crazy but thank goodness I'm not in Pennsylvania I think they're getting just totally hammered right now. Jason   [25:18]Yeah probably so and In fairness while we're covering Tailwind like this could be a headwind or a Tailwind but like I will say in general the macros are getting a little better right so inflation has been steadily coming down the 1 the most stubborn version of inflation had been. In in this core retail category is is food and even food you know they're all down below 3% which like pre-pandemic they were kind of in that, 2.1 2.3% and the FEDS sort of stated goal was to keep inflation between 2 and 3% so, you know we still had all the pain of the high prices over the last couple of years but like. Prices really have started to come down so on the 1 hand that helps consumer sentiment you know just like in announcement from the FED would and so that that's favorable you know most of the jobs reports have been you know pretty good there's there there's some decent news that in theory should make people feel better, the flip side is inflation going down actually hurts retail sales because the stuff they sell is cheaper and so when, comping with low inflation against a previous year of higher inflation it actually can make your comps more challenging. So yeah it's a a complicated mix of stuff going on. Scot   [26:35]Yeah does that if you boil all that down do you end up with a like a semi prediction like if your clients were to say to you give me a number what what do you spit out. Jason   [26:45]Yeah I I'm saying buckle up I normal retail holiday growth is 4.3% and I think we're retail growth is going to be below 4 this year. Margins vary wildly depending on the category but I think average margins are going to be down across the board like there there are going to be some some outliers like the the interest rates have really been brutal on the Home Improvement guys right like if you know people can't get loans they're trapped in their house uh they don't buy new houses they spend a lot less in Home Depot and Lowe's and I think it's pretty likely Buy holiday that there's some, some movement in the in the interest rates which like at the at the very least is going to Goose. That housing market which is going to have a trickle on effect to the the Home Improvement guys so I I suspect they'll have. Better holiday than they have the last last couple of years but overall I I'm not optimistic, you know with the caveat that some some really good operators or some people with a really clever model like the Amazon Walmart Tik toks are are likely gonna you know have a really good run this holiday. Scot   [27:51]Okay cool I will I do not have a prediction so I'll stick with yours. Jason   [27:58]Usually that doesn't work out well for you but thanks. Scot   [28:01]I have to go review our it's been so long I have to go look at our New Year's predictions because there's always start to be coming to fruition here soon. Jason   [28:09]Yeah yeah yeah I've kept half an eye on some of them and there's there's going to be some some are going to come down to the wire some I I would have thought were safer but like you know surprisingly Amazon's pretty slow getting their their AI stuff out the door so we'll see. Scot   [28:23]Yeah yeah there's the so this is a sidebar that we didn't really prepare for but did you see they tried to build their own and they kind of couldn't and they had to punt and they're using and. Not anthropology the 1 that starts know they're using anthropic. Jason   [28:41]Anthropic that's right yes I did see that um. Scot   [28:44]Yeah so that's got to be embarrassing I mean they invested like some bazillions of dollars. Jason   [28:47]To I mean Amazon is kind of a not invented here company so like when they have to give up on the internal initiative and and rent someone else's Tech that that probably doesn't feel very good. Scot   [28:59]Yeah I made the mistake of changing my action button on my phone to the chat GPT voice and then I've been I switched from Google in my search to perplexity so I've gotten used to asking these pretty complex questions and then I chat with Alexa and I feel like I'm talking to a kindergarten I'm like I'll even like ask it something you know play this song from this album by that artist and it loses itself halfway through half the time I feel like it's brain is melting and it's just like getting Dumber even though I know it's at a Baseline. Jason   [29:29]Yeah no absolutely and and I would say it's even more acute in my household because I live with a 9-year-old um and and his default is that, it should know all of this stuff right and it asks he asks these really complicated questions and I like can't tell you how many times a day I have to say to my son she's not going to know that. Scot   [29:50]Why dad why. Jason   [29:54]But but for your point hand him like, you know he basically lives to play Roblox and watch you to Awful YouTube videos um and I can hand him chat gbt 40 and like it's about as entertaining as Roblox to him which is amazing. [30:27] The De Minimis Provision Scot   [30:13]Gotcha does uh so you mentioned Teemu and all that jazz you have been tracking this rule that allows China to use our postal system to send stuff free what's going on with that puppy. Jason   [30:27]Yeah so that is famously called the Dominus provision and it's this rule that got. Put into the US Customs Enforcement in like 1938 and the idea was hey if people are going to ship stuff in the United States like we want to charge tax on it we want to charge duties and we want to have rules about what kinds of things from a safety standpoint and from a a human interest standpoint can be imported into our country right and so so normally you ship something from another country it has to go through inspections it has to go through duties but gosh there's this new kind of peer-to-peer marketplaces and there's eBay sellers selling stuff in London to people in the US and we don't have enough Customs agents to inspect all these little, packages that Scott Wingo is helping people sell on the internet right so we're going to pass a rule called the Dominus provision which is if you ship something that has less than 5 dollars of value, you don't have to declare it you don't have to pay taxes on it it's not getting inspected by anyone and it was really just a labor savings for for the the Customs agents in like you know originally in 1939 when like it was it was an e-commerce it was mail order back then. Jason   [31:44]But in like 1996 that that. 5 Dollar limit got bumped to Dollars and then in 2016 the hundred dollars got bumped to $800 and that really opened the floodgates that's when companies like shien and tiemoue figured out that hey instead of filling up a container of stuff, and shipping that container to the US and having to pay C duties on that container and having that container come over in a boat and take a long time to get here I can put each. Sale in an individual envelope, and Air Freight it to the US and it'll be under the 800 hour minimum so I won't have to pay duties on it I won't have to get it inspected. And you know these these factories in China, and these these marketplaces of these factories in China you know quickly built a huge business shipping individual packages to Americans right and so that's. Jason   [32:48]You know today they they quote unquote exploit what we call the Dominus provision. To to ship all those packages right and so there's been a lot of complaints by people that have to compete with the, the those those you know cheap Imports and there's been a lot of saber rattling in Congress about how you know this is exploitation and all these things, and so last week Biden proposed, that he was going to issue an executive order that goods from China no longer qualify for the de minimis exception and so what that would mean is regardless of the value. Every single package that comes from China would have to go through customs would have to be inspected would have to meet all of our import requirements and so, you know some people are looking at that and saying oh man that's going to put a huge dent that's going to make shien goods and Tik Tok goods and tiemoue goods more expensive. And that might rebalance you know all of these trends that that you and I have just been been talking about. I regrettably am a little more skeptical that it's going to have a huge impact. Jason   [33:58]Couple of other sort of interesting facts to know about this Dominus thing so first of all. Not going to shock anyone there's a lot of american-based companies that are now taking full advantage of this de minimis Clause right so. Jason   [34:12]Not going to name names on the podcast but there's a lot of big sellers that are us-based that import containers of goods to Mexico and then put those, unpack those containers in Mexico and ship, the goods in individual packages from Mexico to the US so they get relatively fast delivery and they get to bypass all the duties and tariffs and you know that's that that's being done by by a number of like big famous, uh retailers and brands in the US so this kind of Dominus rule if it if it affects goods from China. I guess the first thing I would expect to see is Tik Tok and team who are going to start shipping containers to Mexico and importing them from another country right and so we're going to get kind of a a wacko, situation and if you if you Google section 321 which is the the. Part of the the Customs law that that that amendments provision is in section 321 shipping you're going to find that there's dozens of 3pls that specialize in in doing this for you so. I think it's going to be harder to knock down than 1 executive order but the bigger problem is. Tik Tok to and shien together are by some estimates sending about 900,000 packages a day. Jason   [35:33]2 of the United States and so if you could magically wave a wand and say all 900,000 of those packages have to be inspected before they can come in. Think what that would do to the rate of goods flowing into the United States right like all everybody's Imports all the containers would get slowed down because, we have the same number of Customs agents we've always had an executive order can't hire a bunch of new Customs agents that would require new budget from Congress and that seems a lot less likely. So just like the reason the Dominus was there is we didn't have enough people to look at all these packages and that was when they're way less packages than there are now so. If we could somehow like do away with Dominus like would it, reduce the number of shipments probably but it still would be way more shipments it would still overwhelm well customs and would likely suddenly mean all those goods that are I guess holiday Goods for the most part are already on the way are already here but like, it it would probably have a dramatic effect on on q1 availability of goods because it would just gum Up Customs so while I I like the ex the spirit of trying to, update the laws to have a More Level Playing Field I kind of doubt in practice that 1 Executive Order is is going to fix this super complicated problem. Scot   [36:51]Yeah now that we're through earning season did you hear anything else interesting in earnings that we were not able to do an Amazon's earning podcast there wasn't really anything super exciting other than. You know kind of more of the same I think you know the AWS did better than a lot of people thought which was good, and that everyone's really focused on that because of the AI stuff everyone's worried Amazon's going to lose share but they seem to be holding their own and then e-commerce and, the retails were were kind of in line so they didn't really slow or speed up, if you have any there was a little color around Prime day but nothing Earth shattering any other interesting things from earnings Seasons you saw. Jason   [37:31]Yeah so so again like what you've you've kind of had 3 kinds of retailers right you had those 5 retailers that I mentioned only only 2 of them have like earnings calls in the US which is, Amazon and Walmart. Tik Tok is owned by bike dance which has has earnings calls in China and team was owned by poor which has earnings calls in China she and is trying to go public they're trying to list in in London so we haven't really seen any, any earnings calls from them so they they've had interesting things you've actually had T-Mobile stock took a pretty big hit after their earnings because they, reported great sales but by dance like lowered his guidance and part of it is I believe. In in response to how much share Tik Tok shops has captured so this is 1 of I think 1 of the most interesting stories of the year is. Jason   [38:23]For probably as long as I've known you Scott like we've always talked about social commerce and people are always talking about like. Hey there's all this attention on Facebook are people going to be able to sell Goods on Facebook and just not even need e-commerce sites anymore and the narrative we've always had is man it's been tried dozens and dozens of times and it so far hasn't worked it seems like. Us consumers don't want to shop on their social platforms they want to interact with their friends on their social platforms and they want to shop on their shop platforms, but the 1 place in the world where this does seem to be working is China where, pendo Duo on Alibaba had been you know pretty successful 10-cent had been pretty successful with with social commerce and, that narrative is kind of over right now because Tik Tok shops is selling twenty billion dollars worth of stuff direct to Consumer and Tik Tok is. Really winning with consumers attention and especially with younger consumer consumers attention so you know. Jason   [39:21]Gen Z Shoppers are are gen Z consumers are spending like an hour a day, on Tik Tok like the Olympics didn't do very well because nobody watches long form video on television anymore like they're all watching all this this short form content on Tik Tok and Tik Tok has been able to turn that attention, into sales so much so that you know the most successful e-commerce site on the planet while Amazon has has kind of said like hey we can't beat him so we're joining him right so Amazon announced, a deal with Tik Tok where you can run an ad on Tik Tok have direct Commerce in that ad and check out with your Amazon credentials and have your order fulfilled by Amazon Prime, in an ad on the Tik Tok platform so that is super interesting and Amazon has said and we're going to start shipping Goods direct from China just like Tik Tok and T-Mobile and shien so they've announced that they're going to, [40:27] TikTok's Impact on E-commerce Jason   [40:19]direct to Consumer from factory model you know presumably to take advantage of some of this these same de de minimis. Jason   [40:27]Provisions that we we talked about earlier so it's kind of interesting to see Amazon have to kind of match some of the, the offerings and play with some of these Frenemies you know historically you know that's that's gone the other way right like it was it was the old Legacy retards that were having to begrudgingly or brands that had to begrudgingly, moved to Amazon so interesting to see Amazon moving to Tik Tok so that was a super interesting. Jason   [40:56]Sort of evolution this year I'm going to be really interested to see whether the, the Tik Tok thing you know it's mostly inexpensive impulse Goods at the moment and, you know can that get traction with staples will people buy more premium Goods we're starting to see more and more Brands I just spent some time with, Keurig which owns you know a bunch of the coffee brands and they're now doing direct Commerce on Tik Tok shops so it kind of went from all unbranded stuff on Chinese factories to, you know we're starting to see branded merchandise in the Tik Tok shop so, that super fascinating and then on a much more scale 1 other thing that really jumped out of me in the investor call after the Amazon earnings is the Amazon CFO talked about. Jason   [41:43]The softness that people have seen in the drug channel right and so Walgreens write a CVS haven't been having a very good run lately and and he called out that like Amazon probably got a boost in sales because the the Walgreens so helpfully locked all the products behind cages and that like uh. You know was an impediment to sales at Walgreens and caused a lot of those sales to happen on Amazon instead and so you know if you remember last year a lot of retailers were claimed you know crying about shrinking complaining a lot about shoplifting you're not hearing a lot of conversation and earnings calls about shrink this year. And now you know Amazon saying like man we're we're a beneficiary of all the the eroded customer experiences, that that have resulted from an overreaction to shrink. Scot   [42:34]Hu yeah I saw there's a CVS has a thing where you can actually tap with your phone I guess it has an NFC chip in it and so I imagine you have to have the CVS app and be logged in and then you can tap to get into that cage so at least you don't have to wait an hour for someone to wander by and and get you your your pack of gum. Jason   [42:55]Yeah which I have mixed feelings about on the 1 hand I really admire The Innovation and that's a clever way to reduce the friction if you are going to put all these products and product jail which is what I call those those cases the, the pro you know the the argument would be, in CVS's case you have to be a member of their Affinity program and have their app on your phone in order to unlock the cases and so like in practice essentially what that means is you know all of America used to be able to shop at CVS now it's a members-only store right like now it's it's it's essentially Costco like you you have to be a member and give them all your data or you're going to have really inconvenient access to the razor blades and so you know, I could see that going either way like if if you compare it to Walgreens or Raid where you don't get that option like it might be looked at favorably but if you kind of look at it in big picture and say wait a minute you're going to lock up all this stuff and then you're going to make me be a member of your Affinity program in order to, to just be able to do what I've always done or at least since the 1920s when Piggly Wiggly opened up all this stuff. Jason   [44:01]I you know I could imagine consumers not not reacting super well to that, I don't actually know if the CVS is is like Bluetooth or NFC but you did bring up another point. IOS 18 launch today and 1 of the cool features in iOS 18 is they have apple is for the first time opened up the NFC chip to third-party apps so. Under iOS 18 it would be possible for CVS to use that NFC chip to unlock the, the uh their their smart locks that would not have been possible in the previous operating system so that's a fun Commerce innovation, that came to uh Apple today, and I haven't seen any announcements yet but I'll I'll be surprised if we don't see some some cool evolution of some of the digital wallets to take advantage of that new feature as well. Scot   [44:50]Pretty cool yeah so anything else before we wrap up that that you want to prep listeners for as we go into holiday. Jason   [44:58]No no I feel like we covered a lot of ground again I'm I'm super sorry on my behalf and and Scott's behalf that we've been a little sporadic with the shows we really appreciate all the kind words people have, been sending our way and for sure I take it as a compliment that people are mad at me that we haven't been putting out shows so hopefully we'll we'll be able to find some good Windows throughout the rest of the year to get some, some shows out there I you know certainly want to do a recap after grocery shop coming up and we'll certainly want to cover holiday and maybe we can do some. Go old school and do some live shows from interrupt this year if we can get you to come to to New York Scott. Scot   [45:35]Yeah yeah the we'll look at the weather and see how it goes. Jason   [45:39]Yeah yeah yeah if if you're an investor in his fund use use that leverage to pressure him to do it. Scot   [45:45]Hey that hurts. Jason   [45:46]And if you're not an investor nurse fund why the heck not. Scot   [45:49]Heck yeah between your fund.com come on aboard. Jason   [45:52]Exactly well Scott that's probably going to be a great place to leave it if you're super ecstatic that we are back on the air feel free to jump on iTunes and give us that 5-star review we want to refreshen those up and. Until next time happy commercing.

EP319 - Amazon Q1 2024 Recap

http://jasonandscot.com Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, Chief Commerce Strategy Officer at Publicis, and Scot Wingo, CEO of GetSpiffy and Co-Founder of ChannelAdvisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing.

Episode Summary:

In this episode, Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg and Scot Wingo dive deep into Amazon's first quarter results for 2024, analyzing the company's performance in various segments such as retail, offline and online sales, marketplace, AWS, and advertising. They also explore the impact of AI on Amazon's business and provide insights into the company's future guidance for Q2 2024.

• Amazon Q1 2024 Earnings Release

• Amazon Q1 2024 Earnings Call Transcript

In our latest episode, Jason and Scott cover a range of topics, starting with their reflections on recent events such as May the 4th and Cinco de Mayo. Jason shares intriguing stories from his extensive travels and interactions with listeners worldwide. Scott delves into the intersection of e-commerce and the auto industry, honing in on Carvana. The duo also delves into the U.S. Department of Commerce retail indicators data, shedding light on trends in retail sales and e-commerce growth. The conversation pivots towards Amazon's recent earnings report, contextualizing it within the realm of AI investments by tech giants like Meta and Alphabet, offering valuable industry insights and analysis.

The discussion continues with a focus on Amazon's earnings report, zooming in on concerns around AWS amid heightened competition from Alphabet and Azure. The rising trend of AI investments, particularly in data training applications, is explored, alongside the growing popularity of open source AI models due to cost and privacy considerations. Despite a conservative Q2 guidance, Amazon impresses with robust revenue that surpasses Wall Street expectations, particularly in operating income. The retail segment shows exceptional growth, exceeding operating income estimates for both domestic and international divisions. Notably, Amazon's performance in brick-and-mortar stores, spearheaded by Whole Foods, demonstrates resilience with a 6.3% growth rate. AWS stands out with a 17% growth, dispelling market share concerns and showcasing accelerated revenue growth, illustrating Amazon's continuous growth potential and innovation prowess.

Scott delves deeper into Amazon's positive quarterly earnings report, emphasizing the remarkable revenue performance, especially in operating income. Insights are shared on Amazon's successful agnostic approach to LLM models and the potential advancements in generative AI. The conversation shifts towards the burgeoning ads business at Amazon, underlining its profitability and future growth prospects. Scot also outlines Amazon's Q2 guidance and the potential impacts of consumer spending patterns on the retail sector, including concerns about changing consumer behaviors and economic pressures shaping market dynamics. Jason complements the discussion with additional perspectives on consumer behavior and economic influences reshaping the market landscape.

Furthermore, we embark on a detailed exploration of supply chain logistics, with a spotlight on Amazon's expansion into third-party logistics services, revolutionizing traditional retail strategies by sharing proprietary capabilities for wider adoption. Insights from Andy Jassy shed light on Amazon's logistics business approach. The conversation expands to include how companies like Spiffy are embracing a similar model of sharing proprietary products to drive innovation and revenue growth, showcasing an evolving landscape of retail innovation.

The podcast unpacks the complex world of grocery retail, highlighting Amazon's experimental forays like Just Walk Out technology and the Amazon Dash cart, while examining the challenges in delineating Amazon's grocery sector strategy. A comparison is drawn between Amazon's strategies and those of rivals like Walmart and Target, who are adapting their product offerings to match evolving consumer preferences, offering a comprehensive view of the dynamic retail and supply chain management sphere. Dive into our engaging discussion, explore retail dynamics, and keep a lookout for more insightful content.

Don't forget to like our facebook page, and if you enjoyed this episode please write us a review on itunes.

Episode 319 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded on Sunday, May 5th, 2024.

Chapters 0:23 The Jason and Scott Show Begins 2:56 World Travel Adventures 5:53 Commerce Tools Elevate Show 6:53 Jason's World Tour Plans 7:22 Where in the World is Retail Geek? 20:43 Amazon's First Quarter Earnings 23:23 Sandbagging Strategy 26:45 Amazon's Dominance in E-commerce 27:44 Online Segment Growth Analysis 28:53 Offline Store Segment Analysis 31:35 Spotlight on AWS Performance 34:32 Data at AWS 42:02 Gen AI Revenue Growth 46:24 Consumer Pressure 49:56 Supply Chain Evolution 53:46 Leveraging Technology 58:08 Disruption in E-commerce 1:01:54 Amazon's Grocery Strategy 1:05:01 Retail Industry News Transcript

Jason: [0:23] Welcome to the Jason and Scott Show. This is episode 319 being recorded on Sunday, May 5th, 2024. I'm your host, Jason Retail Guy Goldberg, and as usual, I'm here with your co-host, Scott Wingo.

Scot: [0:37] Hey, Jason, and welcome back, Jason and Scott Show listeners. It's been a while, but first, happy Cinco de Mayo, and also a belated May the 4th, Jason. Did you have a good Star Wars day?

Jason: [0:49] I did. I did. I feel like Star Wars Day always makes me think of the podcast because I feel like we have spent many of them in my latter life together.

Scot: [1:01] Yeah, absolutely. Any exciting new Star Wars experiences or merch?

Jason: [1:08] No, I understand you got some vintage merch. merch.

Scot: [1:13] It's not, but they, back when I was a kid, you would go and if you went every week to, I think it was Burger King, you would for the, I think it was Empire. I have the Empire right here. So definitely Empire, but you would get a glass. Now it turns out these were full of lead paint, which would kill you, but that was the downside.

Jason: [1:32] Not recommended for drinking.

Scot: [1:33] You got a very, yes, I never, being a collector, I never drank out of them. So that's good.

Jason: [1:37] Saved your life right there.

Scot: [1:38] Yes, but I did drink out of the Tweety Bird. So that me, me. I'm sure I got some yellow lead paint from a twitty bird glass. Anyway, so they came out with a Mandalorian kind of homage to those glasses and they were at the Hallmark store of all places, not where I usually hang out, but I got to go to a Hallmark store and the little ladies that worked there were, I wish them all an awesome May the 4th. And they looked at me like I was from another planet and it was hilarious. My wife's like, stop, they don't know what you're doing.

Jason: [2:07] Wait, they didn't have a big May 4th section in the Hallmark store?

Scot: [2:11] They did. The little ladies didn't know.

Jason: [2:13] The overlap of people that still buy Papyrus cards and celebrate May 4th is probably not great.

Scot: [2:21] It was very humbling. It was a humble May the 4th, but I got my glasses and I was happy. I'm happy for you. And then tonight we had tacos for dinner, so I'm hitting all the holidays.

Jason: [2:30] I feel like we should have tacos for dinner every night, whether it's Cinco de Mayo or not, but I'm i am happy for that.

Scot: [2:35] We do have a lot of tacos but this was a special single denial edition.

Jason: [2:42] Well, very well done, my friend.

Scot: [2:44] Thanks. Well, listeners of the pod have been all over me. They're like, why aren't you recording? And I said, it's not me. It's Jason. It's Jason. Because you have been traveling

Scot: [2:55] the earth, spreading retail geek goodness. Tell us, we are way far behind on trip updates and all the different countries. It's like you're playing, do you have like a little travel bingo where you're just like punching, what is it, 93 countries?

Jason: [3:09] I do. They call it a passport. Oh, nice. Yes.

Scot: [3:13] That, uh, little book that you get to carry. Yeah.

Jason: [3:15] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have been on a lot of trips and it sounds like you and I may be telling complimentary lies because I also, I've had an opportunity to meet a lot of listeners in the last, we'll call it seven weeks and which they're always super nice. And it's always super fun to talk to people. And obviously they're, you know, strangers recognize my voice in line at Starbucks at all these e-commerce shows. And then we strike up a conversation. And then the next question is always, where the heck is Scott? Because they're always disappointed to meet me and not you. And now the new thing is, and why aren't you producing more frequent shows? And my answer is always that you're dominating the world at Get Spiffy and that you're too busy.

Scot: [4:00] Uh-huh. I see. Okay.

Jason: [4:02] Well, we're both very busy.

Scot: [4:05] You're traveling more than I am. I'm busy washing cars.

Jason: [4:08] Yes. I think both are fairly true, but I did finish a grueling seven-week stint where I got to come home a couple of times on the weekends, but I basically had seven weeks of travel back to back. In my old life, that would not have been that atypical, but post-pandemic, The travel has been a little more moderate. And I have noticed that I have my travel muscles have atrophied and I don't really want to redevelop.

Jason: [4:35] So the seven weeks was a lot. Please don't ask me for trip reports for all the commerce events because I kind of can't remember some of them. They're all a little bit of a blur. But I was at Shop Talks, I think, since the last time we talked, which is, of course, probably the biggest show in our industry. And that was a very good show. I did get to see a lot of our mutual friends and a lot of fans of the show there. So that was certainly fun. And maybe in another podcast, we can do a little recap of some of the interesting things that came out of Shop Talk. I did produce a couple of recaps in other formats for work clients, so we could certainly pull something together. I also went to a vendor show. One of the e-commerce platforms out there is called Commerce Tools, and they had their annual customer show, which is called Elevate in Miami. So I got a chance to go visit there. They're one of the commerce platforms that I would say is winning at the moment in the kind of pivot away from the old school monoliths to these new sort of SaaS-based solutions. And commerce tools in particular are kind of pioneers in pushing this actual certification around a more modern earned stack that they they coined mock. And I think I think we've had Kelly from from commerce tools on the on the podcast

Jason: [5:51] in the past to talk about that. But that was a good show. I got to meet a lot of listeners there. And a funny one, several listeners were like.

Jason: [5:59] I would apologize for the, the, our publishing schedule lately. And they're like, I'm cool with it. I like that. Like you don't do a show if there's not something worthwhile. And then, you know, when I do get a show, it's like a treat. So I don't know if they're being honest or not, but that made me feel a little better about some of our, our, our Tardis shows lately. So those, those were good events. I also spent a week in India with some clients and that super interesting, a lot of commerce activity going on there, a lot of different market dynamics than here. So that's kind of intellectually pretty fun to learn about and see what's working there that might be working here or what, you know, why things tend to play out differently there. So that's interesting. And then I have a lot more international trips booked right now.

Jason: [6:48] So coming up, I'm going to Barcelona, London, Paris, and Sao Paulo. So if anyone either has any favorite retail experiences in any of of those cities, please send them my way. I'll be doing store visits in all those cities. And if you're based in any of those cities, also drop me a line. Hopefully we can do some meetups while I'm out there.

Scot: [7:07] Cool. It's Jason's world tour. You can do a little pod while you're there.

Jason: [7:12] We have done a bunch of international pods in the distant past. I remember hotel rooms in South Korea and all over the place,

Jason: [7:19] Japan that we've, we've cut shows from. So, so totally could.

Scot: [7:23] Yeah. We'll have to do it. Where in the world is retail geek? That could be the theme song. I just sampled that.

Jason: [7:30] Yeah. So besides cleaning the world's cars, what have you been up to, Scott?

Scot: [7:35] Well, it's kind of funny. My worlds are colliding. So a lot of the analysts that you and I know from the e-commerce world are creeping into the auto world and their gateway drug is Carvana. So in the world of retail, we have Amazon, obviously. Well, Carvana is kind of Amazonifying used cars. They had a bit of a drama kind of situation. They were the golden child of online cars. And then they totally pooped the bed. They did this acquisition. They loaded up with debt. And then after, I think it was 21. So they had a good COVID. They surged. And then the debt got in front of them. Used car prices bop around and they kind of like got in an open door situation where they had bought a lot of cars for more than they were worth suddenly. And then they plummeted and everyone thought they were going out of business, but they have had a resurgence. So it's causing a lot of the internet analysts to now pick up auto tech or mobility or whatever you want to call it. So it was fun. I got to do a live chat with Nick Jones. He's been a friend of the show. I don't think we've had him on due to some compliance stuff that his company has rules around, but he's at this firm JMP and it was kind of wild to talk about, with someone about both Amazon and what we're doing at Spiffy, which is basically a lot of Amazon principles applied to car care. So it was interesting to have someone reach out and say, hey, I think this is a thing. And everyone tells me I should talk to you about it. And I was like, oh, yeah, I would love to. So it's kind of fun.

Jason: [9:01] That's very cool. And isn't it also a thing, I think half the vehicles on the road are now owned by Amazon. So I assume that's an overlap too. too?

Scot: [9:09] Yeah, not half, but a lot are. The number of last mile delivery vehicles are very, very large. And we work with a lot of them, so it's kind of fun. I started spiffy somewhat to get away from Amazon and still all I can talk about. Nope. So embrace it. I love Amazon. Love me some Amazon, Jason.

Jason: [9:29] I'm glad you do. I love them too, but I feel like I spend most of my career You're unsuccessfully helping people compete with them.

Scot: [9:38] Hey, got to play one side of the coin. It's a gig. You're going to be more like them or how to fight them.

Jason: [9:43] It's a gig. It is indeed. Yeah.

Scot: [9:46] Cool. I thought we are going to talk about some Amazon news. But before we jump in, you have done your magic with your data analysis interns. And I'm sure there's an LLM and an AI thrown in there. Let's start with some of the things you're seeing in commerce trends from the data that's out there.

Jason: [10:07] Yeah. So as everyone knows, I have a little bit too much of an infatuation with the U.S. Department of Commerce retail indicators data. And these guys, you know, publish monthly estimates of retail sales in a bunch of categories. And, you know, we've talked about this many times on the show, but broadly over the last several years have been really interesting in retail. 2020, 2021, and 2022 were the greatest three years in the history of retail. Like we mailed like $6 trillion in economic stimulus. People didn't travel or go to restaurants as much. And so we sold way more goods than ever before. And so those three years, retail grew respectively at like 8%, 14%, and 9%. The 20 years prior, retail averaged about 4% a year in growth. So normally pre-pandemic, you'd expect 4% growth. We had these three, you know, wildly pandemic influence years where we grew really fast. And then last year we finished a little below 4%. So, so we were around, I want to say it was like 3.6%. So it was growth. It would, it would have been in line with pre-pandemic growth, but it certainly felt like a significant deceleration from those heady pandemic years. And so, you know, people are super interested to see how does 2024 play out? Does it?

Jason: [11:32] Kind of return to pre-pandemic levels, like what is the new normal?

Jason: [11:37] And we now have the first quarter's data from the U.S. Department of Commerce, and I would call it kind of a mixed bag. If you just look at the raw retail data that the U.S. Department of Commerce publishes, they're going to tell you that retail grew in the first quarter 2.8%. So that's a little anemic, right? Compared to historical averages, that's not a great growth rate. Most of the practitioners that follow this podcast care about a particular subset of retail that the National Retail Federation has dubbed core retail. And so the National Retail Federation pulls gas and automobiles sales out of that number. And gas is a decent size number and it's very volatile based on the commodity prices of gas. And auto is a huge number that has, as you're well familiar, its own idiosyncrasies. And so that's how they justify taking those two out. And if you take those two out and you get this core retail number, retail in the first quarter grew 3.9%. So kind of to align with how the NRF talks about retail, we'll say Q1 overall was 3.9%, which is very in line with the pre-pandemic historic average. So disappointing by pandemic standards, but kind of traditionally what we would expect.

Jason: [13:05] What is unique in that number is.

Jason: [13:09] That it's very bifurcated. There are clear winners and losers, both by categories and specific practitioners. So if you break down the categories, e-commerce is the fastest growing chunk of retail. I'm sure we'll talk more about that. Restaurants were the next fastest growing categories. And categories like mass merchants and healthcare providers outperform that industry average, every other segment of retail underperformed the industry average. So things like furniture stores did the worst, building materials did really poorly, gas stations did very poorly, electronics did poorly, and side note, electronics have been the worst performer since the pandemic, which is kind of interesting and challenging. So you've had this weird couple categories doing really well, a bunch of categories doing really poorly. And then within the categories even, if you look at the public company's individual earnings calls, what you tend to see is a couple of big players performing really well in overall retail, that's Amazon and Walmart. And then a lot of other retailers really struggling. So that even that's like in general merchandise, it's Amazon and Walmart that are lifting the boats. And it's folks like Target traditionally that have performed really well are actually struggling at the moment. So the average is kind of hard to follow at the moment.

Jason: [14:37] But that is kind of how things play out. And then we have some preliminary e-commerce data, but the actual Q1 e-commerce number that the U.S. Department of Commerce publishes will publish on May 17th. So that's 12 days from now.

Jason: [14:53] And crunching the numbers that we have available at the moment, that growth is likely to come in at somewhere between 8% and 10%. I'm guessing more like 8% or 9% growth. And so that also is twice as good as overall retail, and it's more than twice as good as brick-and-mortar retail. But that is noticeably slower than the historic e-commerce growth rates pre-pandemic. So kind of file those two numbers away. The overall retail industry is growing at 3.9%. The overall e-commerce industry is growing at about 9%. And then we have our friends at Amazon that dropped their earnings announcement just before May 4th so that they could celebrate May 4th, I think.

Scot: [15:39] Yeah, yes, that's a good setup. And without further ado, let's talk about Amazon's fourth quarter. It wouldn't be a Jason Scott show without a little bit of...

Scot: [16:01] That's right. On April 30th, Amazon announced their first quarter results. And the setup coming into these, so you had the data you talked about, but like to drill in a little bit. We had Meta, the artist formerly known as Facebook, and Alphabet, the artist previously known as Google. They announced and they both basically told Wall Street, AI is the cat's pajamas and we're going to spend anywhere between $10 and $40 billion of capital expenditures on it, meaning NVIDIA chips. So it turns out the way to play all this is basically buying NVIDIA. So hopefully you bought some NVIDIA stock. Maybe this is not a stock recommendation or when it's too late, so... And also don't take stock recommendations from podcasters. Anyway, so there was all this angst and people were a little freaked out coming into the Amazon results because Meta was down like pretty substantially, 20 to 30 percent. And Alphabet was also up substantially. You also had Microsoft come in there and they really crushed it. Their Azure is really lighting it up with AI. And they announced that they were going to invest a lot. And there's this rumor that a $100 billion project, it's got a name like Starship or something, but it's not Starship. Spaceship? Stardust? I don't know what it is. But it's going to be this mega data center, and they literally can't find a place to put it because it's going to consume so much power. So they're going to have to maybe build a nuclear plant next to it or some wacky thing.

Scot: [17:31] Anyway, that was the setup. up. So coming in, Wall Street was very, very concerned about Amazon's AWS division, which is their cloud computing. Because if Alphabet is building out their infrastructure, and so is Azure, that's the two biggest competitors for AWS. And is AWS getting its fair share? And is it going to announce that it's going to have to go build some $40 billion kind of a thing? Also, another Another thing, and I'm kind of curious on if you're seeing this with your clients, but in the, I follow this, you know, the AI, you can't do much without seeing AI everywhere. But the part I'm most interested in is what are big enterprises spending money on? This is like your Fortune 500s. They're all experimenting and really getting into it. And where they're finding a lot of good use cases is training on their data. So they'll say, you know, hey, I'm Publisys. How many documents do you think are inside of Publisys? I don't know, 8 trillion documents. Documents and you know wouldn't it be helpful just the ones I created and who is this retail geek and he's he's created uh you know 90 of those and you know so you know imagine you're starting new at publicists you're gonna be like where do I start going through some of these documents for us and if you had a chat bot that was like hey I've read all that you know I can navigate you through everything that's been published or you know whatever I'm certainly you.

Scot: [18:50] Providing a very big metaphor, certainly be more divisional and all this kind of stuff. But that's where big companies are spending the bulk is they're taking their data in whatever format it's in, be it a relational database, a PDF, whatever it is, they're trying to train it. They don't want it to go up into the, they don't want to train the LLM so that other people get the benefit of that and can see any confidential data. So that's really important. So it needs to be gated in these types of things. Because of that use case, open AI is not great because people are very worried. A, it's very expensive and it's only an API. So OpenAI hosts itself and you call it through an API.

Scot: [19:25] Those API calls are very expensive. They're getting, as OpenAI has gotten more popular, there's more latency. It's taking forever to get answers out of this thing. And a lot of people are very concerned that even though there's ways to call the API such that it's in a window and not being trained, that maybe it leaks in there. So because of all these elements, the open source models are becoming very popular. And right around the time Meta announced, they announced their Llama, which has become quite popular. And what's nice is you can host it wherever you want. And it's kind of like WordPress, where if you are a serious WordPresser, you can host it somewhere yourself, and you can kind of understand that. Otherwise, there's other people that will host it for you. But it has the nice feature of you're just getting the weights and whatnot, and it's it's pretty clear, it's pretty obvious, it's not training itself on your data. So a lot of people like it because it's quote unquote free. It's not an API usage based. It's a pay once to set it up, pay for some resources type thing and you're done. And it's also not going to train on the data. That's one of many. There's probably 10 or 20 pretty commercial grade open AIs out there.

Scot: [20:38] Okay. So that's kind of the setup to get to the earnings. things. So from a big picture, this was a really good quarter. Asterix, the guide made Wall Street a little bit nervous. So-

Scot: [20:53] And one of our research analysts just said it's Stargate, which is also a sci-fi series. They must have that on Prime Video or something. There's probably some callback there.

Scot: [21:01] So they beat for the quarter Q1, but then they also kind of tell you what's going on the next quarter. Amazon doesn't provide fully your guidance. They just kind of give you a snippet. So when they report one quarter, a quarter, they then tell you what they think the next quarter is going to do. So Wall Street got a little bit ahead of its skis, and the guide for Q2 was below what Wall Street wants. So it wasn't what we'd call a beat and a raise, which is the current quarter was a beat and the next one they increased. It was a beat and a guide down. So that probably tampered Wall Street. But ever since Jassy came in, Andy Jassy, this has been his MO is to be pretty conservative because Wall Street's very much an expectation engine. And the more, if you can beat and tamp down expectations, it makes it, it's a little bit rougher in the short term from a stock price, but it makes next quarter better and then so on and so forth. So it's a smart way to manage the long-term vibe of the stock, the mindset, the expectations around your stock. Okay. So revenue came in at $143 billion versus Wall Street at $142. So pretty much in line. But most importantly, where Amazon really threw people off was on operating income. Yes, Amazon is profitable. This is the proxy for operating income. True Amazonians would tell you, no, it's cashflow. We can go into that, but this is kind of the way they report to Wall Street. So this is kind of the standard operating system, if you will. So this is what we're going to use, but it's a proxy for cashflow.

Scot: [22:28] That was 15 billion for the quarter and Wall Street expected 11. Well, you know, 4 billion on a world of 143 doesn't sound like much, but between 11 and 15, that's a very material beat. What is that? Like 38%, something like that.

Scot: [22:44] So that was a really nice surprise. And, you know, Amazon goes through these invest and harvest periods and everyone's been feeling like they're going to be back in investing which would mean they're going to start lowering operating income as they invest but it's actually kind of beating expectations, also this is the fifth quarter amazon has come in at the high end of its guidance or above its guidance since basically you know on operating income and that corresponds with when jassy came in so this is his mo right now is to kind of like beat and lower beat and lower you know exceed expectations tamp them down not get not get ahead of his skis and it's working really well.

Jason: [23:24] Sandbagging for the win. I like it.

Scot: [23:26] Yes, it is. Having run a public company, this is a lesson I learned painfully. So that's something we can talk about over beer sometime.

Jason: [23:33] I will book that date. Yeah. And the retail business sort of followed in line with that. They had like some nice growth, but like the real standout number was the improvement in margins and the significant positive operating income from the retail segment. So I think the actual operating income from U.S. Retail was like $5 billion and the Wall Street expectations were 4.3. So again, that was another strong beat. Total revenue, which revenue is not the same thing as retail sales, as we've talked about on the show many times, that we would use GMV as a proxy for that. But revenue was $86.3 billion for the quarter, which I think was in line with the analyst expectations.

Jason: [24:27] And I think this was the largest operating income that Amazon has ever reported for the retail business. So that was super interesting on the domestic side. Traditionally, domestic has done pretty well and international has been a money loser because, you know, they've been less mature. they've been investing a lot in growing international and they haven't had the same kind of margins. This was the first quarter that they reported positive operating income for the international division. So that's another super encouraging sign for investors that maybe they've kind of passed that inflection point on a lot of their international investments that they've made in the EU and Japan and the UK, which reminds me is not part of the EU anymore.

Jason: [25:13] So so they kind of beat beat international expectations across the board on income. Revenues were lower. So revenues were like thirty one billion dollars, which was below expectation.

Jason: [25:25] But they they earned like nine hundred million in operating income. And I want to say the the the Wall Street expectation was like six hundred million. So so again, like a 30 percent beat, which is pretty, pretty darn good. Good. They also, a bunch of analysts have, you know, taken these revenue numbers and they try to back into a GMV number. And I would say the bummer at the moment is there's a fair amount of variance in the estimates, like different analysts have different models. So I have kind of been putting to a model of the models together and trying to kind of find a midpoint. And like Like based on that, the Amazon's GMV globally probably went up 11.5% for the quarter. So if you're comparing this to other retailers or the U.S. Department of Commerce number, overall GMV went up 11.5%. The U.S. was stronger. So the U.S. probably went up at 12.2%. So again, we talked about core retail was up 3.9%. Well, Amazon U.S. GMV was up 12.2%. So, you know, three times faster growth than the retail industry overall.

Jason: [26:39] And again, Amazon is mostly e-commerce, very little brick and mortar,

Jason: [26:44] which we'll talk about in just a minute. But even if you're comparing Amazon to that e-commerce number, if e-commerce comes in at 8% or 9% and Amazon's at 12%, they're by far the largest e-commerce player out there and they're still substantially outgrowing the average, which, you know, is very impressive and should be very scary to every other competitor out there.

Jason: [27:08] One analyst kind of put together an estimate of what they thought the earned income contribution from Amazon was for retail and ads together, pulling AWS out. And they had it at $27 billion in earned income if Amazon was just a retail with no AWS. And that puts them right in the ballpark of Walmart that spent off about $29 billion in earned income or operating income. I keep saying earned, but I mean operating income. So, so that is all pretty impressive and simultaneously super scary.

Jason: [27:45] Scott, did you drill down into the online segment at all?

Scot: [27:49] Yeah. And, you know, what I would tell listeners is picture a block diagram where you have this big, big rectangle, that's the whole Amazon entity. And, you know, so what we're going to do is talk about the segments. And the first segment is the biggest one, which is the retail business. And that, that's what you just.

Jason: [28:04] Biggest and best. Wouldn't you say?

Scot: [28:06] Coolest.

Jason: [28:07] Coolest. All right.

Scot: [28:08] Cool. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'll, you know, I don't know.

Jason: [28:11] It is for you.

Scot: [28:14] Um, I think the whole enchilada, I like the, the way they do this and I'm trying to replicate it. It's 50. We'll talk about that in a second. The, so then the, you know, so then another segment is AWS, another segment, I think marketplace should be in some segment, but they don't break it out. So it's just kind of in kind of hidden inside of the blob that is retail. So we tease some of that out here on the show. They purposely hide it in there. So no one knows how awesome it is, I think. And then they've got AWS ads and a couple other things, but we'll talk about this. So as you dig into the retail business, there's a couple of ways to look at it. You can look at it by domestic and international, which Jason just did,

Scot: [28:50] or you can look at it by online and physical store. So the online biz grew 7% year over year, which if I remember your stats, well, you don't have it until may 17th so on may 17th we'll be able to know how that compared but probably the one you can compare is the offline biz which is the the store comp that they have, And Jason, you saw on that one, what'd you see?

Jason: [29:16] Yeah, so physical stores grew 6.3%. So again, like, you know, when we say all of retail grew 3.9%, a big chunk of that's e-commerce. Brick and mortar probably grew at like two to 3%. So Amazon's brick and mortar growing at 6.3% is actually super impressive. And it's kind of interesting, you know, for several years, Amazon has had experiments in a bunch of retail formats. So they've had these Amazon Go stores, stores. They had Amazon five-star stores. They had bookstores. They had a fashion store. They're trying all these things. And of course, the biggest chunk of their stores is they own Whole Foods. And so offline stores for Amazon was kind of a mix of all these different concepts. In the last couple of years, they've kind of cleaned house and gotten rid of all those concepts. And so, you know, nominally there's a few of their own grocery stores called Amazon Amazon fresh open, but the vast majority of online offline retail for Amazon is, is Whole Foods. And for it to be growing at 6.3% in the current climate is, is a really good sign for Amazon. And, and I would say somewhat impressive, you know, on the earnings call, they, they announced that they're working up a new format for Whole Foods, which is a smaller format store that's It's going to open in Manhattan. So I have that on my ticker file to go visit when that's open.

Jason: [30:38] You know, the whole grocery space for Amazon is super interesting, but maybe we'll talk about that a little bit more later. But I will call out, they did launch a service that there's been some controversy over. They launched a $9.99 a month grocery delivery service, which essentially lets you have all you can eat free grocery delivery to your home for an incremental fee of $9.99. And they're spinning that as, you know, a cool new grocery service and enable more people to shop for groceries online. And there are a lot of articles about it, like.

Jason: [31:13] They used to have free grocery delivery included in your Prime membership, right? And so they've kind of like, I look at the big arc of all this and say, there used to be a lot more free services in Prime that they've kind of peeled out. Then they started charging for, and now they'll let you get it free again for another $120 a year.

Jason: [31:32] So interesting things happening with grocery that we could probably talk more about later. But I'm kind of eager to dive into some of these other businesses like AWS.

Scot: [31:42] Yeah. So that's the one that everyone was really waiting on the call to hear how it went. And good news, AWS exceeded expectations. Everyone thought it was going to grow 14% and it came in at 17%. And if Wall Street likes, they like a lot of things, they like beating expectations, that's important to them. But their favorite thing is ARG. And that is not a pirate day thing, ARG. It is Accelerating Revenue Growth. Wall Street loves that more than anything. And that's what they delivered for both the ads and the AWS part of the business. And what that means is that as the law of numbers kicks in, so back on the retail business, the only time we see that accelerate is in the fourth quarter and that seasonal acceleration, right? We've gotten used to that for decades now. It always happens in the fourth quarter and whatnot. So it's what you would expect. But this is quite unusual for a relatively mature business. This thing's $25 billion a quarter. So this is a $100 billion business that accelerated. And so that tells us that there is a lot more wood to chop here. It has not gotten near its addressable market. And it really allayed fears that they were losing massive market share because they're, quote unquote, behind on AI to Azure, which is Microsoft offering, and then the Google hosting solution as well.

Scot: [33:05] That does not seem to be the case. So they did very well. So they came in at $25 billion and Wall Street was expecting $24.6. So that was really, that accelerating is what really made everyone very happy. And then the operating income came in at $9.5, way ahead of Wall Street at $7.5. So another pretty material 20% beat on this component at the bottom line. And this is really interesting. There was some really good language around this. And this has been Jassy's statement all along, and it's coming true. His early Amazon's early play was we're going to be agnostic on models and it's kind of like bring your own model we'll work with anything now with open AI they're not going to ever host open AI but they'll they're not going to stop you from working with it and then they for these open source ones they've made it very easy for you to spin up an AWS instance throw a little llama in there and I would make a llama noise if I I knew what they said I guess they make like a sheep sound. So you throw a little alarm in there and it does its thing. And, you know, the benefit of them being agnostic on these LLMs is most likely they have some or all of your data, right? Because they've been at this so long that if you're doing cloud computing versus on-prem, most likely a lot of, if not all of your data is in AWS. Extracting that data, you know, imagine you had terabytes or or what's the biggest,

Scot: [34:31] bigger than terabytes? I always forget this one.

Jason: [34:33] Petabytes.

Scot: [34:34] Petabytes of data at AWS. They literally have a product that they can send a truckload of hard drives around and get your data. That's how much data there is that you could never push it across the internet, that there's so much data. So if they have that data and that's what you want to train on, you don't want to have the latency of the internet between your data and the training. So you'd really need the LLM to operate near your data. And this is what they predicted two or three years ago, kind of around the, the, the launch of chat gpt when all this stuff really started to accelerate and it's coming true so everyone feels a lot better about that then their body language this time a lot of times they were kind of like this is what we're doing and we're pretty sure it's going to work now they're like it's working and people really felt relief around this because everyone there was a set of people that believed it but then you know open ai's pitches nope our lm is going to be we're spending, billions of dollars we're going to be so far ahead none of these open source things are going to keep up. If you don't have us, you're going to be so far behind, you'll be like playing with crayons and everyone's going to be playing with quill pens.

Scot: [35:42] So it was really good to see that this is not what's happening, that people are embracing, enterprises are embracing these open source models. They are in the same zip code performance-wise from results and much cheaper than OpenAI's offerings. And what Amazon said specifically was very positive around what is It's kind of abbreviated Gen AI for generative AI. And it's kind of a way to encapsulate this. And they said that it already is a multi-billion dollar run rate business. And you always have to parse what they say. So multi-billion can be anywhere between 1 and 9.9, right? And you'll see why I drew 9.9 there.

Scot: [36:25] And inside, as part of that big AWS number, and they believe it can be rapidly tens of billions. Billions so they're basically saying it's not double digit billions so it's a single digit million which is where i get one to nine point nine but they basically hinted that that it is growing so rapidly inside of there that it's gonna be tens of billions and this is why they saw accelerating revenue growth which made everyone happy it wasn't just people you know moving some more you know loads on or something boring loads around relational databases or something it was the juicy ai stuff so this got everyone so lathered up that three analysts did price increases and they cited that this was one of the reasons the biggest price increase was from sig susquehanna and they put the price up to 220. At the time all this happened the stock was at 175 and today it's around 185 so it's been up nicely but 220 is a pretty big big you know even.

Scot: [37:20] From where they expect that's where they're thinking i think most these guys look at a year to two years as a time horizon on these prices so and that's the the high i have you know again there's a wide range some people think it's going to go down some people think it's over price so go do your research this is not a stock recommendation but i just thought it was interesting that people get really really excited by by this whole gen ai largely the body language that, and it's, Amazon doesn't pound their chest much. So the fact they were, was kind of a new, new way of managing Amazon and Jassy's pretty conservative. So he must've felt pretty good about it, but also that they needed to ally, allay, allay, allay, whatever the right word is, get rid of these competitive concerns everyone's been talking about.

Jason: [38:05] Yeah. It feels like a pretty big prize out there. Jassy and the whole team always talk, Just AWS, even before you get to Gen AI, they always remind everyone, hey, 85% of the workloads are still on-prem. So like this, as big as AWS looks, if the long-term future is 85% of the workloads are on the cloud and only 15% are on-prem, there's a lot of headroom still in AWS. And then, you know, you add this new huge demand for AI on top of all that. And like this, it's almost a limitless opportunity. And I want to tie the AI back to retail, though, for just a second, because there's another bit of news that I haven't seen covered very much, but is super interesting to me.

Jason: [38:51] There's a particular flavor of AI out there, a subset of generative AI that's now being called agentic AI. And that's sort of a clever amalgamation of agent-based AI. And there's a very famous AI researcher, this guy, Andrew Ng. He's the founder of Coursera. He's done a bunch of things. He was the head of Google Big Think, which was one of the first significant AI efforts. And I want to say he was like on People Magazine's 100 most interesting people list in like 2013 as an AI researcher. So the dude's been around for a long time. He is one of the biggest advocates for this agentic AI. And the premise is that if you just ask an LLM, you take the best LLM in the world, and you ask it to do something for you, that's called zero shot. You give it an assignment, and you take the first result you get. It's a zero shot. You get pretty good results. But if you...

Jason: [39:53] Turn that, that LLM into multiple agents and break the task up amongst those agents and potentially agents even running on different LLMs, you get wildly better results.

Jason: [40:05] And so his, his research kind of showed that, Hey, if, if Jason goes write a PowerPoint presentation for his client, explaining what's going on in commerce. And I just give that to the turbo version of ChatGBT 4, I'll get a pretty good deck. But if I say, hey, I want to create four agents. I want to create a consultant to write the deck and a copywriter to edit the deck and an editor to improve the deck and three people to pretend to be mock customers to poke holes in the deck and have all those agents work on this assignment. I could give that assignment to chat gbt 3.5 and it would actually output a better work product than the the newer more advanced model was by by breaking the job into these chunks and so in retail you think about like this is the idea of assigning higher level jobs to shopping right so instead of saying like going to amazon and saying oh now it's a ai-based search engine and i'm going to type a long form query into search and get a better result.

Jason: [41:09] The agentic AI approach is I'm just going to say to Amazon, never let me run out of ingredients for my kids' school lunches. And the agent's going to figure out what is in my school lunches and what my use rate is for those things and what weeks I have off from school and don't need a school lunch. And it's just going to do all those things and magically have the food show up. And this is a long diatribe, but the reason it's relevant is is this dude, Andrew Ng, was named the newest board member at Amazon three weeks ago.

Scot: [41:40] Very cool.

Jason: [41:40] I did not see that myself. Yeah. And so if you're wondering where Amazon thinks this is going, like this, in my mind, ties all this tremendous opportunity in generative AI and the financial opportunity in AWS directly to the huge and growing retail business that Amazon runs.

Scot: [42:02] Very cool. Oh yeah. I had not seen that. So maybe Wall Street picked up on that. I'm sure. And maybe that was another part of the excitement.

Jason: [42:09] Yeah. But all of that is just peanuts compared to the real good business in Amazon, which is the ads business. So again, you know, Amazon used to, to obfuscate their ads business. They've for a number of quarters now had to report it as earnings because it's in their earnings separately, because it's so material. And it was another good quarter for the ads business. It's hard to say whether it's actually accelerating growth or not, because the ads business is very seasonal. So the ad business grew 24.3% for the quarter versus Q1 of 2023. Q4 grew faster. So Q4 grew at 27%, but the 24% growth is much faster growth than other... Q1 year-over-year growth rate. So however you slice it, it's a good, robust growth rate. If you add the last four quarters together, you get $29 billion worth of ad sales. There's lots of estimates for how profitable ad sales are, but there's no cost of goods for an ad, right?

Jason: [43:13] And so it's very high margin. So if you just assume, I think 60% gross margins is a very conservative estimate. But if you assume 60% gross margins, that means the ad business spun off $29.5 billion of operating income over the last 12 months. And to put that in comparison, AWS is big and profitable as it is, twice as much revenue at over $100 billion now, but it spun off like $23 billion in operating income. So the ad business is a much more meaningful contributor to Amazon's profits than even AWS.

Jason: [43:51] And another way I've been starting to think about this is what percentage of the total GMV on the Amazon platform are the ads? And they are now 6.5%. So that's a very significant new tax. You know, as Amazon has hundreds of millions of SKUs available for sale, no one's ever going to find your SKU or buy it if you don't do some marketing on the platform for that SKU. And that's this 6.5% tax that Amazon's charging. And in the same way we said, hey, AWS is a really robust business. And then there's this thing called generative AI that can make it even huger. All of this ad revenue we're talking about is really coming from their sponsored product listings, which is like basic search advertising on the retail platform. Last quarter, Amazon said, by the way, we have this huge viewership streaming video service called Amazon Prime. And we're going to start putting ads in the lowest tier version of Amazon Prime. So unless you want to pay more, you're going to start seeing ads on Amazon Prime. And that's another huge advertising opportunity that hasn't been very heavily tapped yet. So the analysts are pretty excited about the upside of Amazon potentially tacking on another $6.5 billion in Prime video ads onto the $50 billion of search ads that they already have.

Jason: [45:11] And so ads are a pretty good business to be in, which is why every other retailer is trying to follow suit with their own sort of version of a retail media network.

Scot: [45:22] Cool. I imagine you get a lot of calls to talk about that.

Jason: [45:25] Oh, yeah. I actually, I'm sick of talking about it. So one nice thing about working at an ad agency is there are now thousands of other experts. You know, I was one of the early guys in retail media networks. Now there are thousands of other experts that are way more credible than me. So I don't have to talk about it quite as much, but it still, still comes up in every conversation.

Scot: [45:43] Very cool. All right. So then that was the basic gist of the corridor from a high level. And then it came to the what's going on in Q2. So that did come in lighter than folks expected, as I said, and they guided the top line to 144 versus 149. Let's call it 146 and change at the midpoint. They always do this range kind of thing when they're doing their guide. And Wall Street was at 150 consensus. So, you know, a tidge below two or three percent below where they wanted. But the operating income guide was above Wall Street. So they're kind of, we'll take it. Como si, como sa.

Scot: [46:21] So that was, you know, I think Amazon tapping things down. Yeah. Now they did talk a lot about consumers being under pressure. So they said in the, it wasn't in a Q and a, it was in the prepared remarks and Jassy said it, which is kind of like the more important stuff. And I will say it's really nice to have the CEO of Amazon back on these calls because Bezos basically ditched them after, I don't know if, I think he came the first two quarters back in 97 but i honestly can't remember but he has not gone to the calls and jassy's been to them all so it's really nice to hear from the ceo and he answers very candidly i feel you know he doesn't feel as kind of like robotic as many ceos when they get on here because it is a stressful thing that you're going to say something wrong, but there was this exchange well first of all he he in his prepared remarks he talked about.

Scot: [47:12] I forgot to put the exact language, but he said, we're seeing a lot of consumers trade down. So they're seeing, you know, we're seeing this in the auto industry. Tires is this huge thing where it's under a lot of pressure right now because people are just waiting. So there's a lot of this, you know, it's not showing up in the data that I've seen, but there's, you know, maybe the inflation data, but not the GDP and some of the other unemployment data. But it feels like the consumer is under a bit of pressure here, and they talk about that a lot in the prepared remarks. So I thought our listeners would find that interesting. Jason, before I go into this longish little thing that I wanted to just cover, what do you, did you pick up on any of that consumer stuff? Are you hearing that?

Jason: [47:55] Oh, yeah, that's very common. And remember, in the beginning, I mentioned that there's this weird bifurcation that some retailers, even in categories, are doing well and others aren't. And some categories are doing well and others aren't. That's super complicated to get to the why. But the most obvious why is that consumers feel like they're under a lot of economic pressure and are trading down and are deferring certain types of purchases. The easiest way to see this is own brands and private label sales going up and, you know, national brand sales stagnating, see things like chicken protein going up and beef protein going down. You know, there's lots of examples out there, but the retailers that are best able to follow the consumer as she trades down are tending to do well. And the retailers that only cater to the luxury consumer, the super luxury is still doing fine. They're somewhat insulated. But the folks that haven't been as able to cater to the value consumer as much have struggled more. And the non-mandatory categories have struggled more. So Andy's comments exactly mirror what we're seeing going on in market dynamics and what other retailers are saying in their earnings. It is slightly weird because if you just look at the macros.

Jason: [49:18] It's objectively, the consumer is doing pretty well. There's actually a lot of favorable things, but there's a ton of evidence that the consumer sentiment is that they're really worried about their household budget and are making, you know, hard, hard financial decisions.

Scot: [49:36] Yeah. Yeah. It's tough out there. Well, hopefully it'll get better. So one of the questions I want to just kind of pull out some tidbits, because this has been a theme on our pod for a long time and I thought it was really, really interesting. And this is going to get into the weeds of supply chain and this kind of thing. So sorry if that's not your jam. We like to talk about logistics.

Scot: [49:56] Side note to you, Jason, I saw that deep dive we did on Amazon logistics is still like our number one show and all the stats and stuff, which is kind of fun. So someone cares about it. Anyway, one of the friends of the podcast, Yusuf Squally asked a question. He's one of the analysts and he said, as it relates to logistics, so he's talking to andy on the call back in september you launched amazon supply chain can you help us understand the opportunity you see there where are you in the journey to build logistics as a service on a global basis and does that require a huge increase in capex a function increase in capex which means huge so jesse said this was a very long answer so i'm going to pull out two snippets you can go read the transcripts can you put a link to that in the show notes absolutely yep yeah so so i'm just gonna give you the the snippet the whole thing is worth reading but it would be like another 20 minutes to do that. But so Jassy starts out and says, I think that it's interesting what's happening with the business we're building in third party logistics. And it's really kind of in some ways mirror some of the other businesses we've gotten involved in AWS being an example. And even though they're very different businesses, and that we realized that we had our own internal need to build and launch these capabilities.

Scot: [51:01] We figured that there were probably others out there who had the same needs we did and decided to build the services out of them so this is this model that really blows the minds of traditional retailers where you know so walmart has this huge data you know capability there's this this urban legend that they know when people are pregnant before they do they can see changes in their habits or they know who all is on weight loss drugs they they see your buying habits so intricately that they can do that that's a neat capability but they view it as proprietary and And that's old school thinking.

Scot: [51:32] What Amazon does is says, well, that's a cool capability. Let's certainly someone else needs it. Let's open it up. This is one of my favorite things at Amazon. And it's so counterintuitive that in my current car world, I talk about this and everyone's like, why are you, we're doing it a lot at Spiffy. And they're like, well, why are you doing that? That's like your proprietary thing. And we're like, well, that's just how it should be. And like, this is a better way to do it. And it's really interesting that still today, Amazon's built what I say, $100 billion business out of AWS, which has used this and people are, are befuzzled by the whole thing. So I, I thought that was an interesting use case. And then he, he goes into some details there that are pretty obvious for our listeners, like how this is gonna work. But then he basically kind of brings it back around and then he says he wraps up and says, I would say that supply chain with Amazon is really an abstraction on top of each individual block services. And in those services, he talked about all the things that, that, you know, FBA and last mile delivery and buy with a prime. He talks about each of those kind of and how awesome they are. So he's basically saying Amazon supply chain wraps a bow around all that. And it gives this collective set of business services is growing significantly.

Scot: [52:43] It's already what I would consider a reasonable size business. I think it's early days. It's not something we anticipate being a giant capital expense driver. So it's because they've already invested in all this that doesn't require additional capex. And then he finishes and says, we have to build a lot of the capabilities anyway to handle our own business. And we think it will be a modest increase on top of that to accommodate third-party sellers.

Scot: [53:05] But our, there's a typo in the thing. Our third-party sellers find very high value in us being able to manage these components for them versus having to do it themselves. And they save money in the process. So I thought that was a really interesting, interesting. So they're really leaning into this supply chain. I think that ultimately they'll open this up to more consumers where you can send Aunt Gertrude in Detroit something from Chicago for three bucks a package and just throw it in an Amazon box, maybe a return box, and it kind of makes it way cheaper than you can FedEx it. I think that's coming, but it's really interesting to see. The way they think about things and his articulation of it was very crisp,

Scot: [53:45] and I really enjoyed that. I was geeking out on that when I was listening to the call.

Jason: [53:50] Yeah, for sure. That actually came up in some of the conferences I was at that he, you know, Jeff Bezos famously wrote this memo a long time ago about kind of being an object oriented, company and having all these building blocks that people could easily access and use internally and externally. And, and that this was kind of Andy Jassy doubling down on that. Yeah. It's Biffy is an example of that. Like you inventing some cool products that make it your jobs easier. And then you're selling those products to, to your potential competitors.

Scot: [54:20] Yeah. So two examples, we have some devices we've developed for ourselves. One is a tire tread scanner. So it does 2D and 3D tires, tire tread scans. It's called Easy Tread. And we developed it for ourselves because we touch 3,000 cars a day right now and we wanted to measure the tire treads. And the state of the art is a Bluetooth needle. And it's, you know, you have to lay on your back. The cars are on the ground for us most of the time. So you have to like get underneath there, measure three things, and then it Bluetooths to a phone. Then you have to take it, the data entry, it doesn't have an API. Then you have to like take what it measured and then now cut and paste it into something else. It's kind of, kind of redonkulous in our world. So we developed a solution for that and we're selling it externally. And then the big, the big one is from day one, this has been the plan is we've built a ton of software for Spiffy. So we're, you know, we've got 400 technicians, 250 vans doing all kinds of services across the US and there's no operating system for that. So we, there's no like Salesforce for that or Shopify. So we had to go build our own. And so we've built, you know, route optimization specific to this parts integration, fitment integration, VIN lookup, all these things that are required integration with tire suppliers, oil filter suppliers, oil suppliers, parts suppliers, all these things. So we have like 150 things we've integrated with and pulled in from all over the place.

Scot: [55:44] And then labor management, all the reporting that comes along with it, all that stuff. And we're starting to license that out as its own platform to anyone that wants to do auto services. And so these dealerships and large auto service companies are coming to us and finally saying, this seems kind of obvious now that we need to provide the ability to go to our customers. They call it at their curb. They use a different language than we do. But basically what you and I would call mobile, you know, last mile delivery of the service. And we're starting to license that out. And it's a lot like AWS, right? So we had to build this for our retail business, which is doing the services and now we're licensing it out a lot AWS and we have this device business. So it's been, I would not have, it comes intuitively to me now. Cause I've been, you know, basically living this lifestyle for 20 years and watching Amazon do it, But it's been fun to kind of build a company with this mindset of we're going to take these things we build and give them to other, not give them, but sell them to other people. And then that makes them better. And they help us pay for all the R&D that we've done on it.

Jason: [56:48] Yeah, that's very cool. And that gives listeners a very tangible example of why we haven't been able to podcast quite as frequently as we'd like.

Scot: [56:56] Yes.

Jason: [56:56] I do, at the risk of making this the world's longest episode of our show, I do have a geeky add-on to the supply chain conversation. Yeah. So a lot of these services that they're adding to specifically what they call supply chain with Amazon are around importing services, because an increasingly high percentage of all the stuff Amazon sells is.

Jason: [57:20] Amazon is taking care of importing it, right? And most often from China, but from all over the world and taking care of all that logistics and getting it ready to sell and deliver via the world's most impressive last mile to consumers in America. And there's tons of complicated, high friction touch points and processes to flow all those goods. Well, the big competitors out there to Amazon at the moment that we've talked about ad nauseum on the show, like Shein and Timu, had this kind of direct from China model where they're putting all the goods on 747s, flying them over, and they're taking advantage of this loophole in the postal treaty called the de minimis provision to not pay taxes or duties or have all these goods inspected that they ship into the U.S. and U.S.

Jason: [58:07] Businesses have been complaining it's unfair. There's like all kinds of talk about it. We've done shows on this and I'm sure we'll do others. So here's the new thing in supply chain.

Jason: [58:15] All the people that have been complaining about this are now doing it because guess what's happened? A bunch of these companies have been born that now help every other brand in the world take advantage of the de minimis provisions to near shore their goods. So you're a footwear manufacturer, you make your shoes in Vietnam, Instead of shipping them to the U.S. On a pallet and paying taxes and duties, you ship them on a pallet to Mexico, and then you send them individual parcels across the border from Mexico into the U.S. and never have to pay taxes or duties on the stuff. So I don't know if that will last in the long run, but that's a very disruptive, significant change happening in the whole world of e-commerce supply chains as we speak. That's pretty interesting. Interesting. Had you gotten wind of that yet?

Scot: [59:07] No, no. That's all new to me. Thanks for sharing.

Jason: [59:09] Yeah. That's probably how you're going to have to start getting your spiffy stuff into the country now too. I won't, I won't, we won't go there. But the one other piece that did not come up in the earnings call, but a controversy around Amazon since our last show is news articles came out that Amazon was de-installing its Just Walk Out technology from its grocery stores. So Amazon had built Just Walk Out into several of these Amazon Fresh stores and they built it into Whole Foods. And if you know the history of Just Walk Out, this was the original intention of Just Walk Out was was to do it for grocery stores, but it was too hard at first. So they, they started with these little convenience stores and now they had scaled it up and everyone thought that was the future. And, you know, in the last eight weeks they announced, yeah, we're, we're uninstalling it from the grocery stores. It's not a good fit. And the articles that came out both started out saying that, but then they pretty quickly extrapolated from that to say, Amazon's giving up on just walkout technology.

Jason: [1:00:09] And it was a scam anyway. It was a bunch of, it was thousands of people in India that were just watching the cameras and doing the work. It wasn't really AI or technology doing it. And then Amazon had to quickly go into a PR spin cycle and they sent reps out. They're like, you know, guys talking on a bunch of podcasts about, no, no, no, we're not abandoning Just Walk Out. We just learned that it's not a good use case for grocery and all the SKUs and all the weight-based SKUs in a grocery store. So we still think there'll be lots of good use cases for Just Walk Out, but that's not gonna be the grocery innovation that we actually think the grocery innovation is the Amazon Dash cart.

Jason: [1:00:51] And the India thing just turns out that like when you're training LLMs, you do have humans look at the LLMs results to improve them, right? Like it's a natural, you know, appropriate part of the, the LLMs and Amazon was probably doing that, but they do have a lot of technology around these just walk out. But so it became this whole thing is Amazon abandoning grocery is Amazon abandoning, just walk out.

Jason: [1:01:16] Andy has made it clear. They're still going after grocery. He said in the earnings call that we're, you know, we're doing really well in growing at the non-perishable side of grocery, which is all he, he, he even mentioned this antidote. He said when the general merchants first started trying to get into grocery, which is code for Walmart, that Walmart started trying to sell groceries in 1990, that at first what they sold was shelf stable, non-perishable stuff, paper towels. And they got pretty good at that. And Amazon's point is we're really good at that and do really well at that.

Jason: [1:01:49] We're not very good at fresh, frozen and perishable yet. And we still have to figure that out, but we do have this new model, Amazon Fresh concept in Chicago called V2 and we like the results so far. And we'll hope to refine that and scale that one day. And it'll be interesting whether the unique value prop is dash cards. When the technology guys from Amazon said, hey, we're de-installing Just Walk Out, they kind of hyped up these dash cards, which are these smart shopping carts.

Jason: [1:02:22] I'm by no means I'm writing Amazon off as a grocer, but I am very skeptical and cynical about these dash cards. I live in Chicago, so I've been able to visit the stores that have them. And, you know, a typical store has six of these dash cards and they have 50 to 100 shoppers in the store. So it just, it, it doesn't, they're not scaling it to try to be, you know, a good solution for all the shoppers. And one of the main things you try to use a shopping cart for in a store is to get your 60 grocery items to your, the trunk of your car. And two problems with the dash cart is it doesn't fit 60 grocery items and you're not allowed to take it out into the parking lot. So I still think, I think there's some work to do still on the dash carts, but all this sort of came new ahead leading up to the earnings call this year. So I did, I did want to mention that, I don't know. Are you optimistic about Amazon Grocery, Scott?

Scot: [1:03:17] They haven't quite figured it out yet. I think they're still kind of lost. Seems like they're leaning in. The $9.99 thing is really just Whole Foods, right?

Jason: [1:03:28] No, it's unclear. Amazon delivers groceries from two models, from what they call Amazon Fresh and Whole Foods, and they put too much work on the consumer. The consumer has to decide in advance which one they're ordering from, and you can only get part of the products from each thing. Yeah, I hate that.

Scot: [1:03:44] It's like whenever I find stuff, it's split in there and I just give it. And then it's kind of like, what are you doing? And I'm like, I'm just trying to find stuff I want. And I want this granola and this thing. And it's like, well, you can't do that. I'm like, well.

Jason: [1:03:57] Yeah, you can only get that Hook's cheddar cheese from Whole Foods, but you can only get the Doritos from Amazon Fresh. And you didn't opt in to either of those. So it's confusing. It's a mess at the moment. And again, grocery is a huge part of retail and it's the highest frequency retail. So, you know, if you care a lot about knowing the data about consumers, you want to win in grocery. But it's it's also very different. Like Andy Jassy has said in past calls, we understand we're the only way to win in fresh and imperishable is to have a lot more product, a lot closer to customers. And that's why, you know, we might need physical stores. And Amazon has proven they're really good at fulfillment and these hub and spoke delivery models. They have not won at brick and mortar retail. And, you know, we were looking before the show, Whole Foods is a little bit bigger than when Amazon bought them. But, you know, Amazon hasn't really like, you know, poured gas on Whole Foods in any meaningful way either.

Scot: [1:04:57] Yeah. So they need to figure it out. Not a very day one kind of experience. Yeah.

Jason: [1:05:02] We'll have to do another show, but across the parking lot from Amazon, there has been some other retail news. A big one was, you know, Walmart's invested billions of dollars in healthcare clinics. And they announced this month that they're closing the healthcare clinics, which is super interesting. At the same time, Amazon is actually ratcheting up their pharmacy business. So they're now offering same-day delivery of pharmacy goods in two cities and expanding to six more cities. So that's the healthcare industry is really following all that stuff. We could talk about that. And one that I think every listener should follow really closely, Walmart launched a new owned brand this year. The biggest brand launch Walmart's done in 20 years called Better Goods, which is elevated premium food products sold by Walmart. We talked earlier about the consumer climate's really favorable to these higher value store brands. And if you look at the companies that are performing the best in grocery, it's the companies that own their own brands. It's Trader Joe's, it's all the... Costco's the largest CPG in the United States of America. Costco's bigger globally.

Jason: [1:06:08] Kirkland is bigger globally than Unilever. And so super interesting that Walmart is kind of making its first significant entry in that in a long time. And then the retailer that historically has been doing the best of that is Target, who's been struggling as of late. And what they launched most recently last month is a new brand that's competing with dollar stores called Dealworthy that has the lowest price point products that Target's ever offered. So we talked about the consumer being stressed and Target not necessarily having a good answer for that. This Dealworthy brand seems like their big effort to try to catch that value consumer that they historically haven't captured. So lots of stuff in this world of own brands, which if you're a competitor to Amazon, the best way to compete with them is to sell stuff that they don't have. So that's a super interesting space as well. We'll have to do a show about that coming up.

Scot: [1:07:01] Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. We'll keep an eye on it.

Jason: [1:07:04] Yeah. And with that, we've blown past our allotted time. So people complain we didn't podcast enough. So we gave you two podcasts in one show.

Scot: [1:07:12] Yeah. Careful what you wish for, folks. Boom.

Jason: [1:07:16] But hopefully you enjoyed this and we still would love that five-star review. Again, if you live or have familiarity with any of those global cities I'm visiting coming up, please drop me a line. And thanks everyone for sticking with us. And thanks everyone for all the kind words and comments that we've both heard this quarter. Until next time, happy commercing.

 

EP318 - Temu Deep Dive with Earnest Analytics 

Episode Summary:

In this episode, Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg and Scot Wingo dive deep Temu, the online marketplace operated by the Chinese e-commerce company PDD Holdings, that has become the fastest growing retailer in history.

Joining us on the episode is Michael Maloof is the Head of Marketing for Earnest Analytics. Earnest works with world-class data partners to acquires, anonymize, and productize insight about the entire U.S. Economy. They have posted numerous insights about Temu in the US this year:

• Feb 28: Temu’s 2024 Super Bowl ad blitz failed to accelerate growth
• March 5: Temu is growing fastest among high income earners
• March 12: Almost half of Wish, AliExpress customers shop at Temu

In this episode we cover who Temu is, how big they have become, who their customers are and what retailers they are likely impacting, their go to market strategy (and especially their marketing spend), the controversy around their use of the Global Postal Treaty, and some of their potential risks. We also explore where they could go next. If you're in the commerce space, you'll want to make sure you are up to speed on Temu.

Don't forget to like our facebook page, and if you enjoyed this episode please write us a review on itunes.

Episode 318 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded on Wednesday, March 13th, 2024.

http://jasonandscot.com

Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, Chief Commerce Strategy Officer at Publicis, and Scot Wingo, CEO of GetSpiffy and Co-Founder of ChannelAdvisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing.

Transcript

Jason: [0:23] Welcome to the Jason and Scott show. This is episode 318 being recorded on Wednesday, March 13th, 2024. I'm your host, Jason “Retailgeek” Goldberg. And as usual, I'm here with your co-host, Scott Wingo. Scot: [0:39] Hey, Jason, and welcome back, Jason and Scott show listeners. Jason, one of the topics that is coming up a lot this year, we talked a lot at a lot in our recap and our preview is Temu. By many measures, people think they're one of the fastest growing e-commerce companies in history. If you watch the Super Bowl, I think they spent $8 trillion on ads there. So we want to do a deep dive into this and cover a number of topics. We want to talk about a little background around Temu. What's it mean for U.S. retailers? And, you know, it's a Chinese company. Does it even matter? If yes, why? Because Temu isn't public and they are a Chinese company, they don't really disclose any information. So we wanted to bring on a guest that is basically a Temu expert. So we looked around and we found Michael Maloof. He is the head of marketing at Ernest Analytics. Ernest works with world-class data partners to acquire, anonymize, and productize insights about the U.S. economy. They have posted lots of articles. This is how we found Michael. I think you know him as well from the trade show circuit. So he's going to help us do this deep dive into what's going on at Temu. Welcome to the show, Michael. Michael? Michael: [1:59] Yeah, thanks so much for having me on the show. Big fan of your annual predictions and the work you guys do. So I'm head of marketing at Earnest Analytics. We're the leading credit card retail pricing and healthcare claims data provider for investors and retailers. Before Earnest, I was actually a tech and telco analyst over at Goldman. The two credit card data sets we work with now, Orion and Vela, are probably the most pertinent to my conversations about the consumer economy and certainly this conversation today about TMU. They sourced respectively from a large account aggregator, like a budgeting app, and part of a POS system in the US. And Ernest essentially takes these massive and messy data sets, normalizes structures, and then puts them onto our platform so everyone from portfolio managers to marketers can see this third-party data. For example, you'd see market share, competitive benchmarking, customer behavior, revenue predictions, and macro trends for thousands of companies, including TMU. Scot: [3:03] Awesome. Thanks, Michael. And then, so which sector did you cover when you were an analyst at Goldman Sachs? Michael: [3:08] Tech and telco. So anything in the tech space, we had a few marketplaces in there, telecom companies. It's been a while though. Ernest has been my home now for seven years. Scot: [3:20] Okay. Was this in the Anthony Noto era you were there? Michael: [3:23] This was in the vera rossi era she was my my lead where we recovered uh latin american tech and telco. Scot: [3:30] Very cool awesome yeah they did goldman did the channelizer ipo so i get to know the team there pretty well awesome well before we jump into the data which we're excited to kind of hear what you have to share here jason i know this has become a very hot topic in your world you you You spoke on it at NRF. In your day job, you're getting tons of questions about this. I think you're booked out solid with Tmoo briefings. So those people pay big money for it, and our listeners don't pay. Give us the free version of your backgrounder on Tmoo. Jason: [4:05] Yeah, thanks, Scott. And I'm sure we'll spice in some other tidbits as we go, but I'll try to give a concise bullet. it. Temu is a subsidiary of a company that used to be called Pinduoduo in China. It's now called PDD Holdings, which is infinitely easier to spell, by the way. And PDD Holdings is one of the largest e-commerce companies in China. On a market cap basis, they keep flip-flopping with Alibaba. So they're super competitive. They're way north of like $400 billion in GMV in China and had a really interesting trajectory, but a couple of years ago, they launched Tmoo into first UK and then US, now 49 other markets as a new retail concept. And so a couple of things I'd want folks to know before we dive in with Michael, first of all, the name is a loose English acronym for team up price down. So I always pronounce Tmoo as in team. [5:08] There are multiple pronunciations out there, even from Tmoo employees. So I'm not sure there's an official pronunciation. In the United States, they launched in September of 2022. So they're about 18 months old now. And most folks were not familiar with them until, a surprise, three months after launching, they bought a Super Bowl ad. So they became familiar to millions of Americans with the Shop Like a Billionaire ad that ran in the Super Bowl in 2023. And then as Scott alluded to, they bought five ads in the Super Bowl this year. So they haven't disclosed what they paid. A normal 30-second spot in the Super Bowl costs about $7 million. They ran four ads during the Super Bowl and one during the postgame. So estimates are in the kind of $20 to $30 million that they spent just on that ad. There's a bunch of estimates for how big they are in the U.S. I'm eager to hear what Michael thinks, but his old rivals at Morgan Stanley have them at about $16 billion in GMV in the U.S. But more interesting, Morgan Stanley estimates they're going to be $32 billion by 2030. So you think about a retail company that launched in September of 2022, and then in the first year, business sold $16 billion worth of stuff. That's the fastest growing retailer of all times. We do know from other sources that they get more traffic every year than Target. [6:36] They've been the most downloaded shopping apps on the Android and Apple app stores since they were born. So they've kind of owned the top of that list. And a couple other little interesting things. They are a marketplace. They have invented a model they call next generation manufacturing. So they're a marketplace. It's all three-piece sellers that are selling goods on Temu. But unlike traditional Western-based marketplaces, Temu does a lot more of the work, of listing the products and fulfilling the products for the factory. So they may, if you're a factory, they say the only thing you need is a cellular internet connection, and they provide you all the infrastructure to become a successful seller on Temu. There's somewhere between 80 and 100,000 Chinese factories that are currently sellers on the marketplace. And then one big innovation is this week, they're turning on the ability for U.S. Marketplace sellers to sell and fulfill their goods from the U.S. as well. So one interesting question about a marketplace is, are they competing for sellers with Amazon and Walmart? And now they're bringing that fight to American soil. So that, I feel like, is enough to get us started. There's certainly an interesting company that's worth following. [7:52] The way I originally discovered Earnest is through this show. One of our most popular guests, Dan McCarthy, has been on a few times talking about his his CLV methodologies. And our listeners have really enjoyed his his commentary. He has partnered with Earnest Data several times to do some really interesting analytics. And you guys at Earnest have published a couple of those as thought leadership. And so that's how I first met you. And then, Michael, I noticed you published like three articles on Temu this year. Michael: [8:22] That's right. Right. Teamio has been one of the top client asked for themes. It's definitely something we're seeing a lot in the press. We work a lot with those thought leaders as well. And that's something that we're getting a lot of questions on from everyone from business to fashion to Dan McCarthy. So glad to answer any questions there. We are kind of in a unique spot, kind of have the dashboard on the consumer economy, if you will. Basically what's going on within the last few days we can see everything from customer acquisition they have to their gross market merchandise value. Scot: [8:56] Got it let's let's start at the basics and let's pretend you know so i see Temu and you know it looks like they've got and you know one of my theories is it feels a lot like wish.com so it's really kind of cheap stuff slower ship going to what i would call value-oriented and consumers, you know, in your data, what, what kind of customer are, is buying this and then how fast do you think they are really growing? Michael: [9:22] Yeah, let me answer the second one first. Timmy's growing very quickly. Like you said, from late 2022 onwards, our data is showing double digit month to month growth, which is just explosive, right as it became a household name. In the first three months, for context, it had roughly as many weekly active users in the US as the largest fast fashion brand, Shein, and within 10 months had surpassed Shein in sales. And it had taken Shein years to get to that point. So really, a much shorter timeline. For an idea of size, about 18% of US households have shopped at TeamView since its launch. And in terms of GMV, in February, we saw about 1% of Amazon's US GMV. If you look at that, if you just break that out over the whole year, I believe in 2023, their net sales were something like over $500 billion. You're looking at around $50 billion in gross merchandise value moving through the service. But nevertheless, it's kind of not made really meaningful inroads with the largest online brands. I mean, it's still 1% in a good month. And that's actually decelerated since 2023. In fact, February of 2023 had fewer sales than January, despite the really heavy advertising spend you mentioned. [10:47] So yeah, there's some signs that the growth is kind of changing there. Mainly that retention is increasing even while this like... [11:01] New customer acquisition-based sales growth model is slowing down. TeamU's average customer lifetime value tracks higher than Walmart. And we're seeing customers becoming much more loyal. So that's an interesting kind of plus for them while sales in total are kind of hitting a lull. But yeah, let's talk about who those customers are too. It's definitely been one of the more interesting finds from our data. Despite the really low price points and that kind of gamified discount system, TeamView's US customer base skews middle to high income, actually. Sales among customers earning that over $190K, which is obviously very high up there, they're the fastest growing income bracket. And that's from May to January, May of 23 to January 24. So those sales to customers earning under $55K, like less than the median U.S. household income, that's actually the slowest growing. So today, about 44% of TeamU sales come from earners making over $130K. Not only do high-income earners account for the largest share, they're outgrowing. We just think that TeamU resonates mostly with customers with more disposable income. income, people who can afford to take a gamble on an item that might not work out. [12:27] You buy a floor mat for $5, it doesn't work. A middle high income person might just say, hey, it was $5 wasted, but the poor people don't always look at that. They're looking for a little bit more bang for their buck, can't afford that type of gamble. Yeah, it's interesting. Scot: [12:46] Cool and then you've you know you mentioned that they're you know basically their ltv is going up do you have any insight into why are they getting better at like maybe predictive analytics or recommendation engine or you know they see jason bought some gadget and then they they know he's now a gadget geek and they kind of start targeting do you have any insight into what's driving that that bump in LTV? Michael: [13:09] That's a good question. So I don't really have much insight into that. I try not to get out over my skis in terms of the data that I have available to me. We're looking at retention. We're looking for what's called a smile. Dan McCarthy talks about it all the time, which is over time as a company starts to bring back more customers that stopped stopped spending with them. And that's been pretty rare to see in e-commerce history. That's something they've managed to do. How they're doing that, I'm not totally sure. So it's definitely going to be the key for them to continue growing as new customer growth slows down, though. Scot: [13:52] Yeah. Jason, do you know? Jason: [13:54] Yeah. Well, so I don't know. I just want to point out that while Michael is wisely trying to not get over his skis, I live over my skis. So I'll tumble down the ski slope once again. One of the things I maybe should have said up front or maybe apparent to a lot of people is T-Moves marketing spend isn't just that Super Bowl ad. They're spending a fortune on digital ads and almost certainly losing a lot of money on every sale. So there's a Wall Street Journal article that came out this week that said that Temu or PDD overall spent over $2 billion with Facebook and was Facebook's largest advertiser. They're also Google's largest advertiser in the U.S. And so they're buying a lot of customers. And the the Wall Street Journal estimates that they're losing $6 on every sale. They're spending so much on customer acquisition. And so in that first year, they're doing a ton of marketing. There's a ton of people that never heard of Temu. They're acquiring those customers. They're getting that first order. [14:54] And, you know, a mini version of this is what Wish did until they ran out of money. But though it doesn't seem like there was a lot of evidence that Wish ever got traction, right? Like they didn't get those repeat orders. And what I think we're seeing And what I've seen in some of the data that Michael shared with us is that Temu very much is growing that LTV, getting repeat orders, even as the flood of digital marketing they're spending is sort of losing some efficacy as the law of large numbers kick in. And then I would also say Pinduoduo in China and now Temu in the U.S. Is very well known for their gamification. So they have lots of clever gamification mechanics on their websites, group buying, contests, gifts, one-time deals that are all like very carefully crafted to entice you to make an incremental purchase and to make an unplanned purchase. So I think all of those things appear to be working and then they hit you on social media with, you know, a huge spend, you know, right when you're, you're doom scrolling and expressing some, some purchase intent through your clicks. Scot: [16:08] Very cool. How about you, Michael, you mentioned this, this, this slowdown, which is exactly opposite of what I would have thought given the Superbowl ads. What do you, does the data show you anything there? Is it? Normal or like what what's going on. Michael: [16:23] Yeah i mean i don't know i don't know what would be normal for this company that's still up hundreds of percent a year but when i'm looking at at month over month growth which is the kind of the best way i can think to to look at it it is pretty remarkable there was some sort of a step change in august of last year where it went from growing double double digits each month to growing just single digits or down. The holidays, December actually was smaller than November in terms of their sales. And January was smaller still, makes sense. But February, also very challenged in terms of sales. I'm wondering if they're in a sort of spiral in terms of the new customer's first time kind of buying frenzy is over, or if this is a shift towards very purposely trying to get people in the door and they're just actually tapping brakes a bit on advertising spending. I'm not totally sure what this signals just yet. Scot: [17:35] Got it. Okay. Jason: [17:36] Is it safe to say that there's no clear evidence that spending $30 million million dollars on the Super Bowl had a super observable impact on their sales. Michael: [17:46] Okay. Yeah. So the Super Bowl. Let's talk about that. The million dollar question or $30 million question, I guess. The answer is probably not. There are a lot of ways to measure advertising effectiveness, as you guys know better than most. Brand awareness and net promoter score. But yeah, for a young company like this facing slowing new customer growth, I'd imagine they're looking to move the needle with each of these like big marketing events and the data just suggests that their multiple ads on February 11th had no meaningful boost in sales actually TeamU saw a noticeable deceleration in sales growth following the event actually kind of, like sales were significantly slower in the next few days. So unless they're measuring this on a much longer timeline, I don't think this investment was worth it. I think they would be better just plowing dollars into digital, wherever that is. Jason: [18:42] Yeah, it's super interesting. You know, obviously for listeners that don't know, my salary gets paid by those Super Bowl ads. I work for a big ad agency for which I'm very grateful. But the lot of controversy around our water cooler the day after the show. That was a spin that you rarely see. And in one metric, it clearly had an impact. There was a lot more discussion about Temu than any other company on social media the day after the Super Bowl. So the Super Bowl ads triggered awareness and conversation. I think they were the second behind Verizon, which had Beyonce, right? And so there was a lot of talk on social media. It was not all positive. There was a lot of discussion on social media, but people that hated the team who had the first time they saw it because it was sort of by Super Bowl standards, not a very high production animated ad. I think they made it in-house and they, you know, ran it with much greater repetition than audiences are used to. So it generated a lot of conversation that didn't necessarily translate to sales, at least that we can measure in the short term. And so that that's going to be interesting long term case study about what what these kind of, you know, splashy big reach audiences can and can't can't do. Right. Michael: [20:00] You know, I don't, again, skis and getting over them. It just seems like the outcome for them at this point should be a little further down the funnel. And I don't see how advertising spend like that will marginally get someone, persuade someone to buy a team you that wasn't already going to. It seems, yeah, it was a lot and there was no really movement in our data, either in new signups or in sales. I think there's some other research out that downloads are trending downwards or slowing down as well. We don't have that data, but I was reading elsewhere. So I think, Scott, this is maybe more to your 2024 prediction that people are realizing this is wish and slowing. and becoming less enamored or falling out of it. Jason: [20:52] No, no, no, no. Scott's predictions cannot be right. Scot: [20:55] Wait, if I hear that, you're pre-anointing that I'm right. Is that you're here in March, you're saying I was right with my prediction. Man, I'm good. Michael: [21:04] I didn't want to pick a side here, but I think people might be falling out of love with it, although it's not because it's not wish, it's because they're out wishing wish. We can talk to it a little bit. But I think people just realize Teamio is managing to disrupt Wish. And we can talk to the brands that it's disrupting. That's just one of many. It's got higher retention, bigger scale than Wish. But it does have the same limits as Wish and that this deep discount model doesn't have the big household brands that people want when they're making those everyday purchases that are slightly bigger, like the Tides and Cloroxes or the recognizable alternatives. There are just some things you don't want to replace and you don't want to gamble on. I don't think anyone wants to spend a dollar on detergent and see what happens. It's just going to be tough for them to scale at some point. I think the question we should be asking is if they've reached that point yet. I'm not sure. The sales growth slowing suggests they could have. But in the meantime, they are actually taking a wrecking ball to several other brands. So just because total sales is slowing doesn't mean the disruptive effect is slowing. Scot: [22:22] Yeah, let's go, Jason. Jason: [22:51] Because Temu is buying so many ads and driving the price on all those auctions up. So don't know if it's moving the needle on consumer impact or not, but it for sure is having an impact on their competitors, at least in that regard. Michael: [23:04] So you're saying maybe their goal is to just suck all the oxygen out of the room? Jason: [23:08] I'm saying that's potentially an unintended positive benefit. Mm-hmm. Scot: [23:15] Yeah, and you've teed us up there. Who is, is it retailers or is it more brands? Who's getting impacted by this? And kind of embedded in this question is, do you have an idea of the categories? Like if we looked at that pie of the 50 billion GMV, is it largely electronics? Is it apparel? Like what are the big wedges inside of there? Michael: [23:35] Yeah, well, so the great part about transaction data, it's really good at looking at brand disruption, or I should say retail disruption by brand. Not great at looking at the categories. You know, I don't see what an individual breakout of a credit card receipt is. I'm just seeing where people are spending. So I think that's the question I'm more equipped to answer. In terms of impact, some of the folks you think of when you think of mass market and discount retailers like Five Below and Walmart, the ones that you immediately want to ask if they're being disrupted, they seem like they'd have the most overlap. They've been pretty untouched, actually. Part of its overlap, only 19% of Walmart and Amazon's customers have even tried TeamU. And that's about the same as the total percent of US households that have tried it. substantially the whole country has made a purchase at Walmart and Amazon. So they're just not as at risk, maybe on the margins. But what we're seeing, I guess, next step up with some risk is the dollar stores. Dollar General, they share about a quarter of their customers with TeamU. And if you look at Dollar General's customers spending at TeamU, it's up over 800% year to year from January 23 to 24. Obviously, a super small base and flat. at Dollar General itself. [24:54] And then those TeamU customers who aren't, or those Dollar General customers who aren't TeamU customers, they're spending slightly up at Dollar General. It suggests that there's some impact. Again, not the biggest that we've seen. So I'd say like dollar stores kind of marginally. [25:10] This is not as supported by data, but just putting the data point together that the TeamU customers are spending less and TeamU customers are richer, you could come to the conclusion that Dollar General role is losing out on richer customers looking for deals a little bit. Maybe they're popping in for something they really don't want to spend a lot of money on, like a party, something like that. That's where the sales that they're losing is. Which actually kind of takes us to the last and biggest impact. Wish and AliExpress, as well as all those hobby lobby party supplies, like Oriental Trading. So I'll start with Wish. Their customers are just fleeing. I think there's no better way to say it. 50% less spend on Wish in January 2024 than January 2023, and over 680% increase at TeamU. That's just astounding. The Wish customer, once they try I, TeamU, they're done. It's game over. It's similar for AliExpress. And I think that what TeamU has really done early on, we need to think of them less as like an Amazon killer, and more as a brand that just came in to consolidate the existing demand for this deep discount online spending that these two, AliExpress and Wish kind of got off the ground in the US. [26:35] In terms of the hobby space, Oriental Trading, Hobby Lobby, Party City, they all experienced double-digit declines year-on-year in February among the customers who also shopped at TMU. And these brands, they're catering to occasional and discount merchandise. I think they're really going to struggle adapting to TMU. It's like I said, the person who doesn't mind throwing away $5, $10, $15 on party supplies if they don't work out. But it's a one-time thing anyway. way you know it's it's things that they're somewhat disposable items to these customers and very interchangeable got. Scot: [27:12] It i noticed you didn't mention amazon on that list is there is it there been an amazon impact or has it been. Michael: [27:18] That's great good catch pretty negligible just just like walmart they're just brands on those platforms at this point that you can't find at at these places i think when i say on the margins that's what i mean there could be hey, I need this small thing for my kitchen that I could get for $1 or get for $3. And that might be the sale they lose out on, but they're doing a better job of being one-stop shops. And I think with what we've seen, it doesn't seem like the business model is set to take on Amazon yet. Scot: [27:57] Got it. Yeah. Jason: [28:00] You know, a couple of things that come to mind. A, I think the dollar store thing is super interesting because historically dollar stores haven't sold very much online. Like, and, and, you know, usually their excuse is that, that super low price point discounted items don't work online. Right. And I, I think like in some ways I look at Temu and I say, they're actually the digital dollar store that did figure it out. Now. [28:25] It remains to be seen whether they can make money doing it in the long run. But it doesn't surprise me that those are some of the categories that are being disproportionately impacted. And I think you really hit something interesting on some of these everyday essential retailers that sell the brands that consumers are looking for and trust. [28:46] That, to me, feels like a different shopping occasion than the shopping occasion I think Timo is winning. Branding there's this whole new trend on all the social media platforms called dupes and you know people think of like knockoffs and forgeries where you you try to pretend you're a brand that you're not but dupes is a something different dupes is this is a very similar product to a name brand product but it it overtly is not the name brand product and it's a way better value and they're now these big cohorts of consumers that talk about their dupes and brag about their dupe finds and, you know, proudly make these, these dupe decisions. And it feels like those are the kind of things where, where Teemu's playing really well, where, you know, you're into, you know, crafting and you've, you know, there's some expensive machine, a cricket machine for cutting vinyl. And you say, oh man, I found a dupe on Teemu for 20 bucks, right? Like those Those feel like the kinds of occasions they're winning when you're willing to trade down for that no-name product and take a gamble versus when you know you want the Tide dishwasher soap. Michael: [29:58] I think that's a great point. They're taking advantage of the trading down phenomenon in general right now that a lot of brands are seeing, a lot of retailers are seeing. This is the perfect spot. I'll just go ahead and see if Temu has it. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Scot: [30:15] Cool. One topic, and this is kind of a jump ball for you guys, is the, you know, I read a lot about this shipping model, and this was always Wish's kind of secret sauce is there's this, there's this like loophole in the postal code where if you send this something small, you know, it doesn't have any tariffs, number one. And then number two, there's like this really cheap postal rate, or I can't remember if China subsidizes it or it's free or we subsidize it, but there's some, there's kind of like double loopholes. There's a tariff one and a shipping one. And I've seen some noise lately about people wanting to kind of shut this down. Do you guys, either of you more expert on that than I am and have an opinion on if it's going to be sustainable or not? Jason: [30:57] I could certainly jump in there. So what you're talking about is there's this thing called the Global Postal Treaty. And it's a prearranged agreement between like 95 countries, 94 countries for how they'll deliver each other's mail. When you try to ship a letter from the U.S. to Germany, the U.S. Post Office is going to hand it to the German Post, and they need to know in advance how much the German Post is going to charge the U.S. Post Office to deliver that so that the U.S. Post Office can charge a rate in advance to you to deliver those things. So this global postal treaty is super valuable, and it makes it possible to cost effectively and, you know, with predictable rates, mail stuff all across the world. [31:41] Unfortunately, there's a couple of problems with it. There was the developed nations agreed that for less economically developed nations, they would have a preferred rate. So they would charge even less to deliver. The U.S. post office would charge less to deliver mail from a developing economy than they would from an established economy. And until recently, China was characterized as a developing economy, which is probably not accurate. And then the Postal Treaty specifies a dollar limit that it only is in effect for packages under a certain value. And so this is called the de minimis clause of the Postal Treaty. In the United States, the threshold is $800. So when Temu ships something to a consumer in the U.S. that costs under $800, they get a predetermined rate from the U.S. Post office, which is often cheaper than the rate to mail something from one part of the U.S. to the other. And Scott, per your point, there is no tariffs charged on that item and there is no import inspection on that item. So, you know, normally when we, you know, if a U.S. Retailer imports a container of goods from China, there's all kinds of inspections to make sure that the factory in China met labor standards and, you know, met environmental standards, and then they pay tariffs on all that. [33:08] The team who hands one package to the U.S. post office, they they get to bypass all that, which, you know, is, of course, controversial. No one wants to get rid of the Global Postal Treaty or even de minimis. But what they're saying is that the U.S.'s 800 hour threshold is probably way too high. Like China's threshold for reciprocation is something like forty dollars or something. So you could you could put a big dent in Temu if you just lowered the the threshold. And so there's There's, you know, noise in Congress about trying to change that limit. I would say that, you know, it is an unfair advantage in many ways, and U.S. Companies are certainly right to complain about that. [33:51] I would say that Temu is different than Wish. Wish took advantage of this cause. Temu takes advantage of it way more effectively, right? So Wish sold, you know, was a marketplace, and they had a factory sell something to an American consumer. And then it was up to the factory to get it to the American consumer. So the factory had to have their own postal account. And then they, you know, had to trigger this postal treaty. And there was no shipping confirmation. And often Wish products took a very long time to ship and a very long time to arrive. As part of this next-gen manufacturing model that Temu has, they do all that for the seller. And it uses Temu's postal account. And they expedite all of these things. Most of these goods get air freighted to the U.S. and put into the U.S. postal system. So while Wish items would have averaged three or four weeks delivery time. [34:46] Temu normally averages like five to seven days, and they almost always outperform their shipping promises. And in fact, they even have a guarantee. They give you $5 back if the package arrives late. So, you know, part of the reason that I don't think they're just purely Wish 2.0 is they actually do have a better, more reliable shipping experience than Wish. And they actually more effectively take advantage of this postal loophole than Wish ever did. Scot: [35:18] Yeah. And Wish took the proceeds of their IPO and built out some fulfillment centers. And they almost did their own version of that Amazon dragon boat or whatever that was called. Has T-Mood signaled they're going to do something like that where they have, you know, even more? Jason: [35:32] Yeah, they already have in some. So they're in 49 countries now. So they do have D.C. fulfillment centers in some of those countries. They've actually talked about opening a fulfillment center in Mexico for delivering goods in the western U.S. And so so they are talking about that. But then this other big thing is starting this week that a U.S. Seller could list their goods that, you know, the goods are already in a warehouse in the U.S. that US seller could list their goods on Temu and then deliver those goods from a US fulfillment center. So that's a potential way to get much faster delivery times for Temu. And we've already seen some badging. Temu has items with a rapid ship badge that are guaranteed for two-day delivery. So it does seem like Temu recognizes that over time, their fulfillment model is going to have to be more nuanced than just the the individual parcels uh coming one at a time but but you know that still seems like the the sort of biggest foundation of how they're delivering all these goods got. Michael: [36:36] It um the minimus though i can't imagine that much they would change would really have an impact we're seeing average ticket prices at 38 last month for for timmy like are they thinking thinking of reducing it by that much or. Jason: [36:52] So, I mean, a just talking about way over our skis, like my, my political acumen is very poor, but yeah, I don't think Congress is gonna do anything. I think like at most they'll have a, a hearing and try to look like tough guys talking about how unfair it is and how they're gonna try to protect the American businessman and the American consumer. And then when push comes to shove, they won't, they won't do anything, which is my, my cynical nature. But you're right. Right. Nobody's talking about dropping the de minimis low enough to to, you know, really trigger the bulk of these these Temu shipments. So it's it's more likely if they made a change, it would be a gesture, not like, you know, some some game changing thing. Now, you know, there's another big Chinese company out there, ByteDance, which is TikTok. And like there there is a bill going through Congress right now to ban TikTok. And so, you know, if something like that were to happen with, with a PDD or Temu, you know, that, that would of course, you know, be a, a big threat of a disruption. Scot: [37:54] Yep. And then on that example you gave, Jason, of a U.S. seller in a fulfillment center, is that Temu's fulfillment center or the seller's fulfillment center? Jason: [38:04] The seller's fulfillment center. So potentially what would be one of the ironies of this is, of course, as Amazon has expanded their fulfillment services, you could be an Amazon seller, be using FBA, and sell something on Temu and have Amazon fulfill it for you. Scot: [38:20] Yeah, Wish did something like this. What we found was the U.S. Seller struggled to get things in the price point that consumer wanted, right? It's like it's such this low quality stuff that almost has to be offshore for even to the manufacturer. Jason: [38:36] Yeah, I think you are 100 percent right there. I don't think they're going to like we don't know what the uptake is going to be on these U.S. Sellers. It's an interesting talking point, but it doesn't seem like there's going to be a bunch of U.S. Sellers that are going to likely participate in this like low price dupes demand that they have today. Now, what would be interesting, Pinduoduo, I mentioned, which is a huge, huge entity in China. Pinduoduo started with this same stuff. They started with really inexpensive marketplace goods. And as Pinduoduo got bigger and more established and won the hearts and minds of Chinese consumers, they moved up market. They started selling brand name stuff. They started selling higher quality stuff. And today they're a hybrid seller. PennDuoDuo in China sells their own goods in addition to marketplace items, which I've never seen before. Usually it always goes the other way. And so there's at least a premise that like maybe the U.S. sellers don't like add to the current assortment, but maybe the U.S. Sellers help Temu round out their assortment with some higher price point, you know, more recognizable goods for the U.S. consumer that helps them win more wallet share. Scot: [39:49] Interesting. Cool. We're running up against time. Do you guys have any other topics you want to hit before we call it a show? Michael: [39:58] No, I think it's fair. You know, I already mentioned one of your predictions. I should talk about the other one. Just to pick on Jason for a second. I don't think we'll make it to the 75% of target USC comm this year for Temu, Jason. Sorry. It's like a stretch. Scot: [40:17] Man. How do we get Michael on the show more? Like, I'm really enjoying this. This was a really good guess. Jason: [40:24] I feel like you're calling the winner of the Super Bowl in the first quarter, man. Come on. Michael: [40:27] Okay, well, I'll just put it this way. At 18% of the US households, three months into the year, it seems unlikely at their current growth that they get there. My view basically though, writing this, is that they've done a great job in the first year of attracting folks with a lot of disposable income to buy things that they likely wouldn't have bought anywhere else, like party supplies, household goods. It's maybe a different model than they they have in China. The challenge for them now, you guys both definitely identified this, that it's basically to convince people to switch everyday spending from Amazon and Walmart on those bigger items. And they don't have the assortment right now for that. And that's what you're mentioning. They need to either move up market or figure out what that assortment looks like. But that's going to be a bigger hurdle. They're reaching critical mass. They just have some decisions to make internally at this point. Jason: [41:17] Yeah. Well, in general, I feel like that is going to be a great place to leave it for this show because we have run out of our allotted time. But Michael, we really appreciated your insight. We'll certainly have you back. I know your view of the U.S. economy is useful for a whole bunch of topics that come up frequently on the show. But as always, if listeners enjoyed this episode, I hope you will jump on iTunes and leave us that five-star review. Scot: [41:46] Thanks, Michael. And this has been really good for Jason's ego. So I feel like you've knocked him down a couple of pegs. I appreciate that. And then if folks want to read more about your writing or connect with you, is LinkedIn the best place or are you more active on TikTok? Where can people find you? Yeah. Michael: [42:04] Michael Maloof on LinkedIn. I'm always posting a lot of Ernest data on there. And then also on our company blog, ErnestAnalytics.com. Go to the Insights blog and subscribe. Jason: [42:17] Yep. And I will put links to both the team new articles you guys published and your LinkedIn in the show notes. Michael: [42:23] Thank you. Jason: [42:24] Until next time, happy commercing!

EP317 - Amazon Q4 Results 

Episode Summary:

In this episode, Jason Goldberg and Scot Wingo dive deep into Amazon's fourth-quarter results for 2023, analyzing the company's performance in various segments such as retail, offline and online sales, marketplace, AWS, and advertising. They also explore the impact of AI on Amazon's business and provide insights into the company's future guidance for Q1 2024.

Amazon had a strong Q4 earnings report, beating analyst expectations for revenue and income. In fact, it was Amazon's most profitable quarter ever.

Retail sales were up 6%, which imputes a 2023 GMV of $515B - $660B in the US for all of 2023. The bottom end of that estimate would be a 9% growth over 2023, versus all of Core Retail in the US (x Gas and Auto) which grew 3.6% in 2023. This impressive growth was achieved while Amazon improved delivery times (6B packages delivered next day, and 1B delivered same day, same day offered in 110 metros) and reduced cost to serve by $0.45/package in the US (the first reduction in cost to serve since 2018).

AWS accelerated growth but slowly declined margins.

Ad revenue was again the brightest spot, growing 27% to $14.7B, resulting in $47B in revenue the last 12 months, and a $58B run rate. The income generated from that ad revenue was likely more than $27B, far in excess of the $21B Amazon earned from AWS. Once again demonstrating that Ads are Amazons biggest income generator.

Amazons total GMV in the US likely falls in-between Walmart's expected 2023 GMV of $442B and Walmart plus Sam's Club total US GMV of $519B. Walmart reports it's Q4 on Feb 20.

Amazon probably represented 24% of ALL retail growth in the US in 2023. Amazon, Walmart, Temu, and Shein alone likely represented 49% of all 2023 Us retail growth (leaving mostly crumbs for the rest of retail).

Amazon also announced Rufus, a new Gen AI based search amenity for the e-commerce site.

Don't forget to like our facebook page, and if you enjoyed this episode please write us a review on itunes.

Episode 317 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded on Wednesday, February 7th, 2024.

http://jasonandscot.com

Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, Chief Commerce Strategy Officer at Publicis, and Scot Wingo, CEO of GetSpiffy and Co-Founder of ChannelAdvisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing.

Transcript

Jason: [0:23] Welcome to the Jason and Scott Show. This is episode 317 being recorded on Wednesday, February 7th, 2024. I'm your host, Jason Retail Geek Goldberg, and as usual, I'm here with your co-host, Scott Wingo. Scot: [0:38] Hey, Jason, and welcome back, Jason and Scott Show listeners. Jason, we've been talking about ARVR since before shop.org changed its name. And did you get a vision pro and how is it i. Jason: [0:57] Did not i feel like i've let you and our listeners down i desperately wanted to lie and say that we were recording this episode through our joint vision pros i did i did go do a demo and it it seems super cool i am sorting through my my highly poor vision to see what sort of corrective lenses i'll need to put into the thing, to pull the trigger. I heard yours has arrived though. Scot: [1:24] Yes, mine actually just came hours ago here to Jason and Scott, North Carolina headquarters. And it is sitting in a box staring at me. And I figured I would not get the show notes done if I started playing with that. So that's gonna be my weekend fun that I'm gonna work on. So I'll report back on that. Jason: [1:42] All of us that love you are slightly sad because we've seen your real eyes for probably the last time in a long while. Scot: [1:48] That is true yep yep these baby blues are going behind the goggles and i'm gonna drive the first thing i do is get in my car and drive that seems to be what everyone does on twitter so that'll be fun yeah. Jason: [1:59] That sounds wildly safe. Scot: [2:01] Yeah well you can see right through them so it's totally fun yeah. Jason: [2:05] No you can't. Scot: [2:09] Just kidding everyone do not do that at home and if you do blame jason Yeah. Jason: [2:13] But again, the Tesla is perfect self-driving anyway. So what, what would it even matter? It's like, I feel like you have multiple layers of AI overlords protecting you, Apple and Tesla. What could go wrong? Scot: [2:25] Yeah, it is not perfect by any means. Jason: [2:29] Yeah i'm glad we caught you i feel like there there's been a lot of travel and it's i know you you have kind of stepped away from the hustle bustle but i'm right in the middle of uh retail trade quarter trade yeah yeah. Scot: [2:41] How's that going you did so we haven't been able to catch up since you've done nrf i saw you were like posting like a wild man seems like you had a very active big show how was that. Jason: [2:51] Yeah it was pretty good i would big show is definitely back it was the largest attendance ever. There were over 40,000 people. So it was very robust. A lot of good, good conversations. I do have a lot of content out there. If anyone wants a deep dive recap, you can go find my recap on YouTube, but maybe we'll talk more about it later because we have such a meaty episode just talking about Amazon. But last week I got back from like, frankly, a more fun event then big show. Our friends at Commerce Next have a new show that they call their Digital Leader Conference. And it's kind of a small little gathering of like 50 digital leaders at a resort in Del Mar, California, exactly where I grew up. So I went and drank wine and talk shop with a bunch of folks and the Commerce Next team in San Diego and had a great time nice. Scot: [3:49] Did you have some say in where it was hosted you're okay i. Jason: [3:52] Did not um i think people were tired of hearing me say this but this is like a fairmont resort it's gorgeous but it was built on like what used to be like these trails behind my high school and i kept you know regaling everyone with how i probably thrown up all over this this facility from all the the runs our soccer coaches used to make us do there. Scot: [4:14] Nice that's a good pitch yeah. Jason: [4:16] Nice visual for all our good uh good podcast listeners uh and then i have two shows coming up so the end of this month is etail west which is usually a pretty good show in palm springs we'll probably be uh corralling a couple interesting podcast guests uh from that show and there's kind of a shop.org board reunion There was an actual shop.org board reunion that you and I missed that was last month, but there's like six former board members will be at ETL West. So we're going to get together and have a little catch up there. And then less than a month after that is our Shop Talk in Las Vegas. Scot: [4:59] Fun. Yeah. Have you had an opportunity to see the Sphere? Yeah, I have. Jason: [5:04] I have. I have not been in the Sphere, but I have gone by it. Hopefully, I'll be prominently featured on it for Shop Talk. Seems like that would be appropriate. Scot: [5:14] Yeah, yeah. That would be fun. Get a picture of you on this here and then go inside. Everyone says it's an amazing show inside of there. Jason: [5:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I definitely want to check it out when time permits. Scot: [5:23] Cool. Are you speaking at either of those or just all of you? Oh, wow. Are you seems like a part of your your 2024 New Year's resolution is to talk about Sheehan and Timu. Are you going to be doing that that whole dog and pony over there? Jason: [5:39] Neither of my sessions are specifically on that. I'm sure I'm talking about it a lot in the hallways. It's coming up a lot. It's probably spoiler alert going to come up again in this Amazon earnings call. Scot: [5:52] Yeah and we've got the super bowl this is like we're annualizing the big timu reveal and so it'll be interesting to see if they i guess they've actually said i think it's an article that said they're coming back in a big way so yeah. Jason: [6:03] They bought a second ad so. Scot: [6:04] They will they will be back on a few have you seen like a super secret version, uh i cannot say oh okay oh okay oh all right exciting well it would not be a jason scott show without some Amazon news. And this whole episode is essentially Amazon news. We are going to do a Amazon fourth quarter earnings deep dive. That's right. On February 1st, Amazon announced their fourth quarter 2023 results. The setup coming into this one was we had Microsoft announce really solid cloud results that was largely driven by AI. People are moving their workloads to Azure and they are doing that to get their data over. And due to Microsoft's partnership with OpenAI, that has been a really nice big draw for their cloud offering. Then we had Meta announced, the artist previously known as Facebook, and they had tremendous ad performance, largely driven by AI. Long-term listeners will remember Jason and I, I'm pretty sure we're some of the first to call the impact of this thing called ATT and IDFA, Am I remembering that? You nailed them. Jason: [7:24] Yeah. Scot: [7:25] Yep. And that just really, that was like, what, four years ago, three years ago? That walloped Facebook, Snap, and all these companies that their ad system relied on cookies and third-party data. data. Facebook slash Meta has kind of come back from that and they credit it to AI systems they've used that have really driven the optimization of their advertising products and made the targeting basically nearly as good as it was when they had more precise targeting. Then Google was kind of like had a bit of a rough patch there. I think it's hurting them. They don't really disclose much about youtube and it probably did okay but their ads were kind of flat and their cloud computing did not see the benefit that that microsoft did and there's a growing concern there's more and more folks and some data coming out that shows that people are starting to use ais for interesting searches versus google i do find we were talking about it before we got got on here, I am using it more and more. For example, I was telling Jason, I found OpenAI slash ChatGPT announced this little, it's not a store, but a... [8:39] Add-ons or like almost like an app store but it's called gpts and i found one that enables me to load a bunch of pdfs on a common topic and then just like ask chat gpt about it and yeah so so i found i'm using it more and more for informational queries just generally and then also for things like that like research for work and and for the pod and so i think i think there's a growing concern that google is watching this ai thing kind of like run away from them and there's There's growing talk that they're stuck in an innovator's dilemma. So that was the setup. And the market was kind of nervous coming into Amazon earnings because a big chunk of Amazon is the cloud, which is their AWS segment. And then folks, we really didn't have any great idea how their holiday sales were. And then last, that Google piece made people a little nervous about the ad business, which has become almost a third leg to the Amazon stool. tool. So, and then as you keep kind of pointing out, Timu and Sheehan are just like really on the rise and could they, you know, you also have said, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you've said, you know, you don't think they're being impacted by it too much. That is some other folks. But, you know, there's definitely overlap there. So people worried, are those up and rising stars going to be the Grinch? So we're going to walk you through that and peel the onion. [10:01] We're then we're going to go into how the retail offline and online did and then marketplaces cloud AWS. And that's where we'll talk about AI. You can't talk about anything now without talking about AI. So we'll hit that and then Amazon ads and then kind of finish up with how Amazon guided to next quarter, which will be Q2 Q1 of 2024. Anything you want to add in that setup before we jump in? Jason: [10:28] No, I think you've queued it up well. I'm eager to hear how Amazon did. Scot: [10:32] Yeah, well, it is what in the Wall Street world we would call a beat. So they, you know, back in Q3, they set some guidance and they beat that on the top and bottom line very handily. And then I would call it a raise. It was kind of a slight raise. They raised the range. Amazon has gotten very good, especially in the Jassy era of not getting too ahead of their skis on expectations. Expectations so but now that we're you know a fair amount into the Jassy area Wall Street's starting to get his number so now Wall Street's not really believing the guidance it's kind of interesting phenomena that we'll talk about when we get to that part but that's you know if we're going to characterize it it was a win and a win so it was a win on the pass quarter which is Q4 and it was a win going into Q1 and you know Amazon historically if you've been following it as long as jason i have they go through these periods of what i call invest and harvest so they'll invest and invest and invest everyone's like gosh and then people think all right there's no way this thing's going to be either profitable at all or as profitable as it once was or whatever it is they start to lose faith and then amazon goes into a harvest phase and then they just print money and it always surprises people and they're able to do that and that's what what But this quarter really is kind of the –. [11:49] Output of focusing on that a lot in 2023 where they kind of had this post-coveted hangover they had overbuilt a bunch of stuff and now it feels like they have righted that they've stopped a lot of the things that since jesse came in that maybe were investment areas that they shouldn't have been investing in and and they've got a lot of discipline on expenses and that has turned out really well so those numbers work is revenue came in at 170 billion and wall street had 166 billion So that's a beat of a mere $4 billion, which is very good. That represents 14% year-over-year growth. Operating income came in at 6.1%, which is the highest since 2019. So they're kind of back in pre-COVID shape, if you will, and doing better than pre-COVID. So that's good to see. Operating income came in at $13.2 billion, and Wall Street had $10.4. So this was a pretty big beat. it's only three billion ish but you know that's a 30 percent beat so that's a that's a nice win when you can deliver 30 more profit than wall street's looking for so all that was really good so jason how did you think that the retail and offline online parts of the business did. Jason: [13:03] Yeah well it was certainly a good part you know reminder amazon reports their online sales which which is a global number, and Amazon's in a different set of countries than anyone else. So you almost can't compare it to any other retailer because there's no retailer that does business in the same geographies as Amazon. And that online stores has their first party sales in it, and it has just the profit from their third party sales in it. So it's not a real GMV number, but that number was over 70 billion, like 70.5 billion versus 68.6 billion. So that was up 6%. That was a beat for Wall Street. Physical stores were 5.1 billion, which is slightly down. So that was one of the few misses in there. [13:52] What I suspect most of our listeners are more interested in is if you convert all those sales into a GMV number and you strip out just the U.S. So you can kind of compare it to other U.S. retailers. What does that look like? And there's a number of different estimates out there. One that we pulled was Citibank's. So the Citibank estimate for total GMV for the year was $904 billion. billion, the US portion of that would be like $659 billion. And that implies that the third party sales were particularly profitable. So I'll call that a optimistic estimate. And then Marketplace Pulse did an estimate using a much more conservative figure for how profitable third party sales that was largely based on the one year Amazon really really told us what the numbers were, which was 2018, right? And so based on those kind of 2018 ratios, Marketplace polls estimated that global GMV is about 700 billion, US GMV would be 510 billion. So that's up, if we take that conservative number, the 510 billion, that would be up 9% from the previous year. All of retail in the United States grew 3.6%. So 9% growth for one of the largest retailers in the market is terrific. [15:20] We'll talk a little bit more about what that might mean, but they also, they had some other interesting successes in the retail business. They talked about the, it was their fastest speed of service ever. So you know, we've talked in previous quarters about how they really shifted from a national fulfillment network to these regional fulfillment models so that packages would be staged closer to the consumers that bought them. And they said this quarter that 7 billion packages, or I'm sorry, for the whole year, 7 billion packages were delivered next day or same day. A billion packages were delivered same day. And there are now 110 metro areas in the United States that get same day delivery. So I still talk to other retailers all the time that talk about competing with Amazon's offer. And they always talk about two day delivery. And the reality is that's not the Amazon offer anymore. They're same day in 110 metros, and they delivered $7 billion packages in zero to one days. So speed of service, super impressive. And while they got faster, they also got more efficient. So for the first time since 2018, they actually reduced their cost to serve, the total cost to get a package to a customer. And so in the US, they said the cost to serve went down by 45 cents a package. package. So that's a pretty meaningful cost reduction. [16:45] Volume went up, which sometimes makes it easier to be cost efficient, but, you know, to actually get better service and lower your costs at the same time is an impressive feat and a big win for Amazon, which, you know, probably contributed a lot to that particularly high operating income, which I'm not sure if you mentioned, but I think that's the highest operating income they've ever announced. Scot: [17:06] Yeah. Yep. It's pretty good. They're actually profitable now. Just saying they've been profitable a long time. Jason: [17:12] Yeah. Yeah. So for all of our, our friends that don't think Amazon's profitable, the, so overall you have to call that, that a really good quarter on the retail sales side. Scott, did you kind of do a deeper dive in how much of that was the marketplace versus 1P? Scot: [17:30] Yeah. It was interesting. You read your GMV data and Scott Devitt, he's at Wedbush now. He's a longtime friend of the pod. He also put out his number and he came in around that market pulse side. So more like the 700 billion combined. Those numbers are 1P plus 3P? Yeah. Is that right? Yeah. Okay. And global. Yeah. So he was in the same zone. And what I found was interesting is because we're heading into 24, he pushed his forecast for GMV. He's the only one I've seen that forecast GMV. And it's obviously driven from like the revenue. So he kind of takes the revenue growth rate and uses that to kind of like get to the growth rate of GMV. [18:08] But he pushed it out to 2025. And then if I push it out one more year, just kind of using the same, what I think he's doing, it crosses a trillion dollars. If you could wrap your head around that. I remember you and I, one of the first discussions we ever had was about this frustration that people didn't understand this GMV thing and they were underestimating. You know, you'd see these charts that showed maybe Amazon never catches up to Walmart. And at that point, you know, Amazon was at a hundred billion and Walmart was at 400 loosely. Maybe that's the ex-grocery. I can't remember the specifics. This is going back like seven, eight years. And now we're at a point where not only have they crossed them from GMV perspective, but even revenue is crossing Walmart or very close to it. And there's a shot at a trillion dollars of transactional flow going through Amazon between 1P and 3P. That's pretty, that's crazy. Like, and it makes sense. You drive around anywhere. All you see is Amazon last mile delivery and long haul, you know, trucks. There's just like the economic impact of what they're doing is monumental. Jason: [19:13] Yeah, it's crazy. I remember when the first e-commerce sites sort of passed the billion dollar mark and how amazing that felt. Yeah, yeah. This thing could work. Scot: [19:22] Work this thing has legs exactly they thought we were crazy yeah. Jason: [19:29] Um so you know normally the narrative is all this retail stuff loses money but that's okay because aws is so profitable and if if there was like any sort of cautionary tale in this earnings call at all i would say it was aws the growth was decent right like what the i think the the estimates were 11 to 15 and they came in right in the middle of that like 13 but the operating income actually went down slightly. So like that, that is a mild concern for some folks. If you, if you kind of convert AWS to it, the last, the trailing 12 months of revenue at, at there, I want to say it's like 24% or 24.1% gross margins. You generate about 40, $21 billion in, in operating income from AWS. So that, you know, 20 billion here, 20 billion there, it starts to add up. But as, as I quickly checked that that's significantly less income than for example, the ads business probably generated for them. So it's a good business. They are growing slower because they are the biggest player. They are growing slower than their competitor, certainly than Microsoft. And it, And their profitability did slightly tick down. [20:51] But on the exciting side, they talked about a lot of the AI workloads that were moving to AWS and what a headwind that is. And one of the workloads they announced is Rufus, which is an e-commerce search engine that runs on Amazon. So, so that, that giant text box that we're all used to for finding our products and that's helping you find what, what SKU to buy amongst the 800 million SKUs available on Amazon is now rolling out a much smarter generative AI amenity that can help, help you find products with much more sophisticated searches. Scot: [21:33] Yeah. Yeah. I have not seen any screenshots of it or anything. Have you? Jason: [21:37] I saw a demo. though. I have not seen it in the wild yet. You know, they're not the first mover here, right? Like Instacart adopted a version of OpenAI pretty early. Walmart rolled it out in their iOS app at CES a few weeks before Amazon. And so it's funny, like, you know, Amazon, there are some rumors that some of the AI tools in Amazon aren't performing as well in internal tests as people would like. So there's some concerns about that. [22:11] What we'll probably have to do a deeper dive on another show is this whole interesting thing as all the text boxes that you can enter text in and e-commerce are moving from keyword searches to these ai engines customers have to re-learn how to use them and right now they're not right and so you know you go to the walmart app and you know it's a generative ai search engine but you still type the same same you know basic keywords in that you always have and so i'm kind of interested in the long run, is that really where the AI is going to live in these e-commerce sites? Or will we have, you know, sort of a different amenity for doing these more intent based searches than we do for the keyword searches? Or will people just learn how to use them different? I don't know. It's a TBD thing as the world evolves right now. [23:02] But you also alluded to the ads business. That was definitely another bright spot. They sold 14.7 billion dollars of ads which was above the wall street estimate it's a 27 growth year over year and so if you look at the trailing 12 months that's like 30 billion dollars 27 billion in ad sales if you look at a run rate if that fourth fourth quarter number were to go four consecutive quarters it's a 58 billion dollar run rate so they are they're like a clear third largest digital ad platform in the United States and rapidly gaining ground on the other two. And the most conservative estimate I've ever seen for this business is that it's 60% gross margin. At 60% gross margin over the trailing 12 months, the ads business contributed $28 billion billion in operating income to Amazon versus the 21 billion for AWS. So ads was $7 billion more profitable than AWS over the last 12 months. Scot: [24:08] Yeah. That would be net margin, I think you meant to say. Jason: [24:11] Yeah. Sorry. And in fun fact, they also announced this little thing called Prime Video Ads, which which, you know, is a huge new source of revenue for them. And that is expected to tack on another like six and a half billion over the next 12 months or 24 months. So like there's a lot of upside still in the ad business for Amazon. Scot: [24:37] Yeah it's gonna be crazy back on marketplaces i skipped a couple data points because i was so excited about the trillion dollars the as far as the quarter they they kind of have a couple of things that they report on you know the gmv we we we talked about analysts have to kind of back into and they use this one data point to kind of triangulate the things they do tell us is there's this piece called third-party seller services and that's basically you know where they make money from prime and other things of that nature and that grew 20 percent year-over-year beat estimates it was everyone was thinking 42 billion and it came in at 43 and change and then the other thing they tell us is units and that's tricky because you don't know the relevant price of a third-party unit in a first party so you can't just assume it's 61 of revenue that that's a little trick in there that that's that's why the analysts have to do some different math to get in there but third Third party was 61% of units in the fourth quarter. Last year, you have to look at year over year because of the seasonality. It was 59. So that's up 2%. So more and more products that they're selling are third party, which is, you know, just juices their margins that much more. Jason: [25:46] Yeah. Just looking at the Citibank model for that, Scott, it would be seven globally. It would be like 71% of total GMV is third party. Scot: [25:55] Yeah. Jason: [25:55] By revenue. Scot: [25:56] Yeah. Jason: [25:57] Yeah. Scot: [25:57] Yeah, because first party, back when I was modeling this, I've since abandoned that because the Wall Street guys do a better job than I ever could. Jason: [26:04] Their spreadsheets are a lot prettier, for sure. Scot: [26:07] Yes, it was similar. It would add about 10 points because the AOV on first party is relatively low compared to third party because of all the books and digital little things that they have that are a dollar here, a dollar there kind of things. Things okay so then we go into next year with the guidance and they guided the top line 138 to 143. This was Wall Street's consensus is in the middle but they really raised the top end of this and it gives it a growth band of eight to thirteen percent and what's happened in the jassy era is it either comes in right at the top or a notch or two above so Wall Street thinks that you know While the midpoint was aligned with what they're thinking, many of them have bumped up their, models to the 143. [26:58] And then also the similar kind of situation on operating income, Amazon raised it a fair amount more. And then what that did is it increased the price targets. And the stock has been on a really nice tear since earnings, thanks to this. And I think AWS wasn't what everyone wanted to see, but. [27:16] It reaccelerated growth, which folks want to see, and it doesn't feel like they're losing AI. I do think Microsoft's got more buzz, but at least they're in the game. Whereas I think people are starting to worry Google's not really. Google's talking a good game with Bard, but they're really slow to put stuff out. Like, you know, they announced this. What is it? Ultra version. Bard has three flavors, and, you know, they're way behind on each one they've announced. They're behind weeks or months on. And then the last one is, like, really taking a long time. So everyone's like really starting to worry about Google's ability to execute quickly. And, you know, so I would say the winners of this earnings season were definitely Meta, Amazon, Microsoft up in kind of a league of their own, and then Google and some of the others. I think Snapchat, I don't follow them this close, but I think they had a really rough quarter. So there's definitely an interesting AI has thrown a whole new mix into how these big, you know, either trillion dollar mega super mega caps are doing or meta is not in that discussion. It's a little bit smaller, but these big some people call them the significant seven. And they when they say that on CNBC, they're throwing NVIDIA in there and a couple others. But, you know, AI has just changed the game in the last year. It's been amazing. Jason: [28:30] Yeah, for sure. Sure. And they, you know, along those lines, they also announced a bunch of sort of AI-driven new inventions at Amazon. So we talked a little bit about Rufus. They, they have part of that reducing that cost of service. They have a lot of smarter robots in the fulfillment centers that are like interfacing with humans more and doing more stuff like that. And I saw they had one, one AI innovation right in your space, right? Like they're using AI to inspect respect all the Amazon vans and identify any service needs before the vans break down. Scot: [29:02] Yeah yeah yeah these these last mile vans are they get pretty beat up as you can imagine sure you know being in Chicago you see how they can that can be pretty bunged up and all kinds of things happen so, you know they it's interesting I've been to tour several of these because we work on them at my day job spiffy and it's pretty wild we don't have time to go into it maybe we can do a whole pot on on it. But anyway, they, they line them up and drive them through a single area. And they have this like arch of cameras that they put them through. And I imagine that's what that system is. It's, it's using this kind of 300, almost like a ring of cameras that the vans drive through, and they must be using the AI to detect what's going on there. Jason: [29:45] Yeah it's crazy um so anything else jump out at you on specific on the amazon earnings because i wanted to take a last minute to kind of put these amazon earnings in context for the rest of us retail but i want to make sure i didn't miss anything you wanted to. Scot: [30:00] Yeah one last thing in my little auto world that i live in now they kind of made a almost you know i haven't seen a lot of buzz about it i know you work a lot with the auto company so you're you're probably getting some feedback on it which is why i'm kind of curious but they announced hyundai is going going to start selling cars on Amazon. And for a long time, everyone's thought Amazon would maybe compete with Carvana or buy Carvana, some of Carvana's used cars. So it's like e-commerce for used cars. And a lot of Carvana's competitors, Vroom and Shift, have kind of hit the skids and actually are out of business now. And some people thought Amazon would buy them, but it looks like Like they're actually going to be maybe an ad unit or a showroom and then send, you could transact on Amazon or start your transaction on Amazon and then go to the dealer. So that has been, there's a lot of buzz in my world around that. And we keep hearing many more OEMs are coming and the dealers are, the Hyundai dealers I've talked to are very excited about this and expecting kind of a different customer than they're used to. And there's some prime tie-in there too, which is kind of interesting. So it's going to be interesting to see Amazon has their eyesight on this auto category and they're doing more and more in there. And it's going to be interesting to see what they do. Jason: [31:14] Oh, for sure. I have this giant deck of industries where the leaders in the industry would say like, oh man, e-commerce is amazing in these other industries, but here's why it will never be relevant in ours. And I think the car industry is the one that this is playing out in right now that, you know, they used to all say like, oh, there's never going to be e-commerce. People want to go to the dealers and drive it. And there's three tier distribution and all these things and it'll never happen. And you know, now it's certainly happening. Scot: [31:44] Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be interesting to see that. Jason: [31:46] Fun times. So I just want to put all this in a little bit of context. So before the pandemic, retail in the United States of America grew very consistently. 4.1% a year with some very minor deviations, but that's kind of what you expected just from normal inflation and the growth in the population, 4.1% a year. So then the pandemic happens. We mail out a couple trillion dollars in economic stimulus. We lock everyone in the house so they can't spend as much money on services. And we had the three greatest years in the history of retail. We grew 7.7% in 2020. We grew 13.6% in 2021, that's the best year of all times, and we grew another 8% in 2022. So those were those three crazy outlier years. So the end of 2022 comes and everyone's like, what's 2023 going to look like? [32:37] We just had these three years that were more than double the industry average. The NREF came out early in the year and said, hey, we're forecasting 4% to 6% growth. So bottom end of their range would be average, 6% would be sort of halfway to those last three years. So we now know what actually happened and we came in at 3.6% growth. So missed the NREF estimate, missed the traditional average, it's a down year. And this is $5 trillion is the total sales. So missing by half a percent is pretty meaningful. So all of retail grew 3.6%. If you convert that into a number, that's $180 billion more stuff we sold in 2023 than we did in 2022. [33:25] And the numbers I'm using for all this are retail without auto or gas in it, just because that's what the nrf calls core retail and it's kind of amazon doesn't sell a lot of cars or gas yet right so so amazon grew nine percent if we use that conservative gmv number for the us. [33:42] That means amazon alone grew 43 percent last year 43 billion dollars last year so amazon alone was 24 of all retail growth in the united states of america and they're the first or second largest retailer in the country and they grew a quarter of all growth which is pretty phenomenal Walmart also wildly outperform the industry they grew and there they won't announce their q4 till for a couple more weeks but assuming they they have like hit the low side of all the estimates so only 4% growth in q4 though that that'll bring them in at 6% growth for the year that means they They grew by $29 billion, which is 16% of that total growth last year. Then I keep talking about Timu and Shein. Timu only grew 3,100% last year, which is a pretty good growth rate. So they contributed $9.3 billion in growth, 5% of the total. And Shein grew 30%. So they contributed another $7 billion in growth, 4% of the total. So you just take those four retailers, Amazon, Walmart, Timu, and Shein. That's half of all U.S. retail growth last year. So those four companies had a terrific year, but they essentially left crumbs, for the rest of the retail industry in what without those four companies is pretty much a Debbie Downer year. Scot: [35:09] Yeah yeah it's amazing share there it's kind of crazy. Jason: [35:13] Yeah and it's it's just so weird to see the biggest two retailers in the market amazon and walmart growing faster than like almost anyone else that that to me is a a very anomalous circumstance that you you don't normally see, there is this super interesting horse race who is the biggest retailer in the u.s and the the sort of unfortunate answer is it depends a little bit on how you count because you you've got Walmart's total US GMV which we also don't know by the way because the there now is a meaningful marketplace at Walmart not as meaningful as as Amazon but like you know Walmart doesn't disclose its actual GMV. [35:59] But Walmart also has Sam's Club. And so if you take just Walmart's GMV and shoot, I thought I had the number in front of me, but now that I'm talking about it, I of course don't. But from memory, it was about $442 billion last year would be my estimate for their GMV after they announced that's their Q4. And so that would be lower than even the conservative estimate for Amazon's US GMV. If you add Sam's GMV in the US to Walmart's GMV in the US, Walmart gets to about $520 billion. So that would be above Marketplace Pulse's estimate for Amazon and below Citibank's estimate for Amazon. So no matter how you count, these two companies are very close. A few years ago, you and I were talking about Amazon being close to Walmart if you take grocery out, which grocery is 60% of Walmart sales. But now we're in a year where Amazon may have passed Walmart, but however you count, it's very close. And they're obviously continuing to grow faster than Walmart. So if it wasn't 2023, it likely will be 2024. That's the year that Amazon actually takes the title as the largest retailer in the US. Scot: [37:18] Yeah, it's crazy. We knew the day would come and here we are. Jason: [37:22] Exactly. So Scott, I feel like we nailed it. We targeted to have a slightly shorter show to just keep the meat in there and we have succeeded. Scot: [37:33] Yeah. Yeah. Thanks everyone for joining us. Don't forget, if you have a second, leave us a review. We'd really appreciate that. And. Jason: [37:41] Until next time, happy commercing!

EP316 - Annual Predictions 2024 

Jason visited the Walmart Neighborhood Market in Pea Ridge, Arkansas featuring drone delivery. Here is a video for those interested.

2023 Predictions Recap

Jason:

1. At least 2 retail bankruptcies (besides Party City) Yes
2. BNPL Consolidation (Klarna, Affirm, Afterpay. Sezzle) – at least one merges/exits US or BNPL. No
3. Shopify launches an ad product such as a retail media network Yes
4. Meta/Google/TikTok lose ad share to new social media platforms and retail media networks. No
5. Live Streaming Commerce Still not meaningful in US in 2023 (less than 5% of social commerce in US) Yes

Jason Total Score: 3 of 5

Scot:

1. Amazon uses this 2022 setback/slowdown/reversion to the mean for a public resetting of expectations, but behind the scenes they take share and raise the bar on shipping. Yes
2. Shopify is acquired No
3. An innovation in e-commerce powered by ai (gpt4) surprises us by how fast it’s adopted and how cool it is. Yes
4. E-commerce accelerates back to the mean in 2H after a mean regression in 1H. E-com returns 10-15% growth rates. Yes
5. Sephora and/or Ulta move to a subscription model for new product discovery. Yes

Scot Total Score: 4 of 5

Trends revert to the mean, and Scot is back on Top!

2024 Predictions

Jason:

1. Retail Media Networks go In-store. At least 1 top 20 retailer launches a digital in-store ad network
2. AI is even hotter at end of 2024 than now. Most text boxes in E-Com are GenAI powered. A least one retailer has an AI based auto-replenishment solution with significant adoption.
3. Bifurcation drives at least two more retail bankruptcies, including 1 national specialty retailer, and one general merchandise/dept store. (two top 50 retailers)
4. China companies focus more on West and get more traction. Shein successful IPO. Temu US gets to at least 75% of target US E-Com.
5. Grocery E-Commerce goes from $95B to $125B in 2024 (after being down in 2023 per Bricks meets clicks).

Bonus: Live-steaming, MetaVerse, Crypto still not a major thing in e-commerce; Management stops blaming performance on retail crime; and Smaller RMN’s fail.

Scot:

1. Amazon relaunches Alexa on a native LLM
2. Temu falters as people realize it’s wish 2.0
3. RMN is currently $52b, growing 20% y/y, accelerates in 24 to 30% and $67b (coresight has the 52 datapoint)
4. Instacart who’s stock IPO’d at $33 and now is $23, solves ads and pops to 40
5. While everyone thinks Shein/Temu takes share from Amazon, they end up hurting Nordstrom, Macys and Target instead – materially (10%+) focus on apparel, maybe take target out?

Don’t forget to like our facebook page, and if you enjoyed this episode please write us a review on itunes.

Episode 316 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded on Thursday, January 11th, 2024.

http://jasonandscot.com

Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, Chief Commerce Strategy Officer at Publicis, and Scot Wingo, CEO of GetSpiffy and Co-Founder of ChannelAdvisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing.

Transcript

Jason: [0:23] Welcome to the Jason and Scott show. This is episode 316 being recorded on Thursday, January 11th. I’m your host, Jason Retail Geek Goldberg. And as usual, I’m here with your co-host, Scott Wingo. go. Scot: [0:39] Hey, Jason, and welcome back. Jason and Scott show listeners. Well, folks, this is one of our most popular shows of the year. This is our Jason and Scott annual prediction show. This is where being an audio podcast really works against us. You can’t see us, but Jason, I normally wear leisure wear when we record the podcast, but tonight we’re wearing tuxedos. Jason, I really like that cummerbund. It looks really good on you. Jason: [1:04] Thanks. Scot: [1:04] I feel like you’ve really elevated elevated your game this year the the suede tuxedo really suits you thanks thanks and the extra glitter on the bow tie was my daughter’s influence smart the the 17 year old touch as you can never have enough glitter that is literally what she says half the time so yeah this is the show where we make we kind of self-score last year’s predictions which would have been the predictions we made this time last year early January for 2023 and then we make new ones for this year the 2024 2024 predictions but before we jump into that Jason we’re recording this on the Eve of nrf big show and I know that’s a huge show for you it’s now I think it’s expanded it’s always a fun weekend show which I’ve always appreciated that that was sarcasm and then I think they’ve extended it you know I think it was like what was it Saturday Sunday Monday and now there’s like a Tuesday and then there’s pre-days and post days so it’s like a whole it’s like a whole month of nrf big show are Are you teed up and energized and ready to go? Jason: [2:06] Yeah, and I feel like if all those things weren’t exciting enough, you know, it’s like 113 years old, and it’s always over a holiday, Martin Luther King Day, and it always draws a blizzard, like either on the first day or the last day. And so this year, maybe we’ll get both. Scot: [2:22] Yeah, yeah, and it’s always fun. And it used to be there was nothing down in that part of New York, and now at least they have, what’s that thing called? Hudson Yard or whatever. Jason: [2:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I feel like Manhattan has grown up around Javits a little bit. So you are definitely right. I have clients and partners with offices that are now walking distance from the show. And Hudson Yard is pretty cool. Scot: [2:42] Yeah, very cool. Now, are you speaking and also on behalf of the listeners, what are you going there to learn more about? Jason: [2:51] Yeah, so in the highly unlikely event, there’s anyone that listens to this show that doesn’t already know what the show is. National Retail Federation’s big trade organization represents retail in the United States. It’s their big event. 30,000-ish people come to New York City. Tons of exhibitors in a wide variety of fields. The area that’s always fun for me is one area of the show is dedicated to innovation. So they give like inexpensive booths to small companies that, you know, aren’t ready to invest in a big booth. And many of these are startups or startups from other countries. And, you know, so it’s always, there’s always a lot of wacky dubious stuff there. But in between that, there’s usually some, you know, kind of cool ideas. And it’s often the first place you’ll see something that a few years down the road becomes, becomes one of the innovative new parts of retail. So I love walking the innovation center. Last year, retail media networks were the big thing at this show, and I’m sure they’re going to be a big thing again this year. People were starting to talk about AI last year, but this year, I think it’s just going to be off the hook. I think in order to get a booth, you had to say you were an AI company. I’m pretty sure the trash is getting emptied by AI sanitation engineers. [4:09] I feel like it’s simultaneously going to be wildly overhyped and super important and transformative to the industry. So that’ll be interesting to see how that all plays out. I like to talk about food and grocery a lot and InterF has done a lot to expand their coverage of the food industry. So there’s a whole separate portion of the trade show dedicated to grocery retail vendors and a whole content track. So that stuff is all interesting. John Furner, the president of Walmart, will have a keynote. A bunch of other retailers will have keynotes. Magic Johnson is kind of the outside speaker that they’re hyping this year, which is, I mean, fine, but I don’t go for those paid, not retail speakers that much. And then I am speaking, I am doing a session on one of the featured stages that is entitled, Coming to America, which is all about what Western brands can and should be learning from the Chinese brands that are now successfully doing business in the US. And so most notably, Timu, Shein, and probably a little bit of TikTok. [5:26] Yeah very cool i also saw on linkedin that you had what i would call a close encounter with a. [5:32] Drone experience what tell us more about that i did so i mean scott i’m sure you remember this but it was like i looked it up it was like 2013 that jeff bezos was on 60 minutes and was like oh and we’re going to deliver all the packages via drone wasn’t it the eve before cyber monday was like that sunday night before yeah cyber money yeah and so he made that announcement and you know that sounded incredibly far-fetched and i don’t know if you remember but i had a session that i was doing an internet big show that year and i dressed up a drone with the amazon air logo and landed it on stage at the javits center or i had someone that was better than me landed on stage at the javits center in the middle of my presentation as a joke and i got in huge trouble for that that’s wildly illegal that’s why they call you retail geek yeah sometimes it’s better to ask forgiveness than permission is my philosophy on that one. But back then, it was like this kind of silly science fiction. And since then, we’ve on this show and in the press and media talked about various kind of edge use cases where drone delivery might actually make sense or be economical. And we’ve talked a lot about some of these pilots that both Amazon Amazon and Walmart are running. And so I know it’s a real thing and you can really do it. And maybe in some use cases, it’s even practical at this point. [6:57] This December, last December, so last month, I did my last trip of the year to Walmart, which is in Bentonville, Arkansas, which side note, downtown Bentonville is beautiful for Christmas. They have a super cool light show. So if you’ve never visited Walmart, that’s the time to do it. But there is a small Walmart neighborhood market, which is their grocery store concept, which is in a small community of 5,000 people about about 30 miles away from Bentonville called Pea Ridge. And so I drove out to Pea Ridge to visit the Walmart neighborhood market. And behind the neighborhood market is a drone center. And they are actually delivering packages via drone on an ongoing basis for all the residents of this 5,000 person community. And so standing in a parking lot and having a bunch of these planes, and the Walmart ones are fixed wing aircraft, launch and like zoom over your head and all the signs in the parking lot, you know, say low flying aircraft beware. [8:00] And like seeing all these planes like launch, it was more fun and cool than I expected it to be. And what’s particularly cool is this particular model, the way they recover the planes is the planes all have a hook on the tail and they literally have a a retractable zip line that like two robot arms raise up and it puts the zip line across the drone center, which is elevated. And the plane flies into the zip line and gets hung up and it just swings like a swing until it loses momentum. And so, you know, I just sat there for like probably 45 minutes and watched like 10 planes launch and get caught by the zip lines. And I I made a video and put it on LinkedIn. So I edited it down to like a minute, but I know this is not new news to most people on this show that there’s drone deliveries, but I’m telling you like when you actually see one in person, it’s still kind of cool. Scot: [8:58] Neat. Are they, obviously they’re not going to carry like a gallon of milk or something super heavy like that. What’s their payload max on this? Jason: [9:06] Yeah, so I am not super well-versed on exactly what, like the one part of the experience I couldn’t see, unfortunately, Unfortunately, you’d have to be pretty lucky to be out of residence when a delivery was happening. I think it’s like a four-pound payload, and it’s dropped via parachute. And I know the way it works is you register in advance to be a drone delivery site, and then you’re given a little foldable circle target that you put in your backyard, and the drone drops the packages right on this target. And so, you know, Walmart neighborhood market is… Scot: [9:42] It’s a grocery store with like you know dry goods and pharmacy and stuff like that so i i think it’s a lot of like bottles of advil and things like that that are likely getting delivered there, very cool so head over to linkedin and look up jason and it’s it’s the post that starts you know x years ago on 60 minutes and it’s in there yeah i’ll put a link in the show notes if you if you want to find it quick cool one last topic we wanted to cover before we get into the meat of of the prediction show, Jason and I have been getting a lot of questions from listeners and it concerns a slowdown in our frequency. Well, no one can pull the wool over our listeners’ eyes. You guys caught us. We have slowed down our frequency. And that’s because starting with the next episode, 317, we’re going to rebrand and it’s going to be the Jason Bott and Scott Bott show. And nothing’s going to really change. We are going to increase the frequency. It’s going going to be daily. You guys wanted more shows. So next year, we’re not going to do 365. That would be too much, but like 355, something like that. And you probably guessed by the rebranding that it’s going to be Jason and I writing the outline of the show. But Jason, being the geek he is, has created a Gen AI version of himself that’s been trained on 800 hours of Jason content. and he produces a lot more content than I do. So about 300 hours a month. So congrats, Jason, on this technological breakthrough. Jason: [11:09] Yeah. I’m super excited about that. You’ve disclosed one of the secrets to our success is that every episode is about a three to one ratio of Jason and Scott. Scot: [11:22] Since you do the audio editing, I try to go easy on you and you’re self-inflicting your own pain. Yeah. Jason: [11:27] The truth, and that may be the norm, but the truth is we have two kinds of shows. There are shows where you are much more dominant than I am. And then there’s shows where I I contribute more than you. It’s kind of funny to see the flip-flop. If you get an interesting entrepreneur or you get a deep dive in a really arcane portion of Amazon’s business, you get a lot of Scott. Scot: [11:48] Yeah. Yeah, that’s where I thrive in the darkest corners of the interwebs. Yeah. Seriously, though. Jason: [11:55] I was just going to say one side note on that. That LLM we trained, you can now buy on the OpenAI GPT store that went live tonight. Scot: [12:03] Yeah, and you can have your own personalized. We get a lot of requests for personalized shows, so you can just write your own. Jason: [12:09] There you go. Scot: [12:09] Yeah. We’ll talk to you in a three-to-one ratio of Jason to Scott. But seriously, though, we do not have an LLM. We wouldn’t do that to you, but our frequency has decreased. We looked this up, and our first show was on November 14, 2015, if you believe it or not. So that’s over eight years ago we started. This will be our ninth year. And yeah, so that’s a lot of content. And when we started, I had just, I was one year into my current company Spiffy, and now we’ll be celebrating our 10 years this year at Spiffy. And we had five employees and now we have about 500. Jason worked for Razorfish and he only had two words in his title. And now he works for the biggest or one of the biggest ad agencies with a fancy French name called Publicis. [12:59] And he has 16 words in his title. So there in his world, you measure your success by the size of your title. And he has done awesome. So both of those endeavors have kept us a little bit busier than we were nine to 10 years ago. So that is the root cause of our slowdown. We did the math and we actually did 15 shows last year. So it was like monthly plus a couple extras, plus three, if you will. We used to do around 50 a year. So you’re all right. We have reduced the frequency. Apologies for that. this is a passion project for us so our revenue good news our revenue has not gone down which is which is good because we don’t make any revenue we just love talking about this stuff and hanging out together and that was the whole genesis of this show and still is true even though we have less time to do it anything you want to add there jason yeah no i i think i mean obviously i feel like we’ve both gone a tremendous amount out of the show and we we love it and want to want to keep it going we want to make sure when we do shows that that they’re interesting and valuable for folks. Jason: [13:57] And so one of the things that I’ve gotten a lot of feedback on is we, you know, every year we’ve always done a handful of these deep dives on particular topics. And I feel like the shows we get the most compliments on are when we do these deep dives or when we do really detailed breakdowns on the Amazon earning shows. And so, you know, certainly we’ll still keep the Amazon earning shows on the schedule, but like, I’d like to lean into if, you know, if we are going to, you know do sort of one to two shows a month uh lean into some of those like more prep higher production deep dives as well so that is one of my new year’s resolutions is to drink a lot more ice coffee and the other one is going to be to make sure we get get some relevant deep dives into the show schedule every year yeah there’s got to be on the topic of ice coffee there has to be some limit to what the human body can endure there so it’s going to be interesting too you’re kind of a tim Tim Ferriss body experiment mode with the level of coffee you’re reaching. Scot: [14:58] So I look forward to seeing how this goes. Jason: [15:00] Hack myself. Scot: [15:03] Okay. With that housekeeping out of the way, let’s jump into the meat and potatoes of the show. As mentioned, this is our annual prediction show. Way back in episode 301, recorded on January 20th, 2023, we made five predictions each about what would happen in the upcoming year, which was 2023. 23. Let’s go through and review our performance because jason is first in our title he always gets to go first decision i greatly regret from eight years ago just kidding my memory from eight years ago is you did name the show yeah scott and jason just doesn’t it doesn’t sound right obviously so here we are so jason go ahead i’ll read your prediction and then you self-score All right, Jason, prediction number one, insert drum roll sound effect. You predicted, prediction number one, at least two retail bankruptcies besides Party City would occur. How’d you do on that one, Jason? Jason: [16:03] Yeah, well, Mr. Debbie Downer was right. The Party City reference was because Party City had already declared bankruptcy by mid-January of that year. But unfortunately, there were a number of other bankruptcies last year. So the marquee one was probably Bed Bath & Beyond, although they have a new life as the brand for Overstock. Talk david’s bridal right aid but the one that i’m personally maybe the most sad about and i know you were a customer if not a fan was boxy yeah yeah very sad yeah so i’m giving myself credit for that that first one although i feel like a bad person for making negative predictions, it’s kind of part of your personality i used to be the malageddon guy and now you flipped lived through the bankruptcy guy. Scot: [16:49] So I appreciate you carrying the banner on that one. Jason: [16:52] I’m here for you, man. Scot: [16:53] Okay. So that’s so far one out of five is what we’re scoring you. So one right, zero wrong. And number two, buy now, pay later consolidation. Klarna, Affirm, Afterpay, excuse me, Afterbuy is another one, et cetera. At least one of these will emerge or exit the US or BNPL altogether. Jason: [17:15] Yeah, and I failed. Those companies, for the most part, continued to gain traction. I want to say Sezzle had some valuation problems, although it started to recover in Q4 this year, but they’re all viable, independent entities still going. So that is a miss. Scot: [17:34] Okay, cool. So we’re now tied one and one, one right, one wrong out of the first two. So batting 50, which is pretty good for a batting average. Above my my career average i’m pretty sure yeah yeah we we i have i will self-admit we’ve done a terrible job of track tracking this over the years because you know it’s really fun and it’s just trying to it’s good exercise and i recommend you do it too listeners because it makes you think, in a little bit longer term way and when you make a prediction and you don’t have to put yours out there but when you put it out there it makes you think a little bit a little bit deeper about it Your third prediction, prediction number three, was in 2023, Shopify will launch an ad product such as a retail media network. You were banging the RMN drum back then. Jason: [18:22] Oh, for sure. So this is a complicated one. I feel like I kind of got it right, but full disclosure, not in the way I expected. So when I wrote that, I really thought, gosh, Shopify’s got, you know, all these independent stores that are probably too small to have retail media networks. That, you know, one of the interesting products Shopify could launch is a sort of a confederate network where, you know, all these individual sellers opt into a shared advertising product that Shopify could administer and help all these sites to monetize their traffic. And that did not happen. But what I wrote was launch an ad product such as a retail media network. And last year, Shopify did launch, they already had a product called Shopify Audiences, which is buy data on anonymous data on people that use ShopPay to help target ads. And last year, they added automated integrations with Snap, Criteo, which Criteo is a multi-platform advertising platform, and TikTok. So as a Shopify seller, you could now say, hey, I want to go buy an ad using Shopify customer data to define your market it and have it automatically placed on all these different digital media platforms. So I don’t know. I feel like I kind of lucked into it because it didn’t happen the way I thought, but it kind of did happen. Yeah. Scot: [19:49] Okay. We will give you, so at this point we’re on number three and you’ve got two right, one wrong. Heading into the fourth prediction. And this one was in 2023, Meta, Google, TikTok are going to lose ad share to new social media platforms and retail media networks. How did you do on that one? Jason: [20:10] The real answer is I don’t know. So I expected it to be much more prominent. And the tail of the tape is kind of mixed. Using eMarketer data, Google lost share across all their properties. So they went from 28% to 26%. Meta was kind of flat at 20%. They They lost share in Facebook but gained a little share in Instagram. And then TikTok actually grew a little share, so from 2% to 2.4%. And then the retail media networks obviously did gain share, but they’re smaller. So Amazon went from like 11% to 13%. Walmart went from like less than 1% to 1.2%. So it kind of happened, but it happened. Scot: [20:56] To a tenth of a percent instead of what i i sort of felt would happen which was multiple percentages so i’m gonna not give myself credit for that one okay that’s very generous of you, we uh this is the trick of writing these in hindsight you’re always you wish you’d put like a clear number there so you’d be easier to score 100 100 they’re kind of being squishy all right so here on number four you’re at you’re back to 50 50 so two right and two wrong and then one One quick clarification was this share of digital ads, like not all ads, right? Like not TV and stuff in the DOM denominator. All right. Number five prediction for Jason Retail Geek. For 2023, live streaming commerce, still not meaningful in the US. It will be less than 5% of social commerce in the United States of America. How’d you do on that one? Jason: [21:50] Also, the real answer is don’t know because it turns out there’s no good data source for truly measuring live streaming commerce. The estimates, which are based on these kind of thousand person surveys, are that all video commerce in the US is like 32 billion to 50 billion. And so how much of that like really happened live? Even if all of that was live, it’s still not 5% of total e-commerce, but like what what percentage of e-commerce is social commerce. I just, I ended up feeling like I wrote a bad, squishy forecast, but there is part of me that wants to say, hey, the spirit of this was people aren’t gonna be shopping for products live on video and it’s not gonna be very meaningful. And I think that that is absolutely the case, that it’s not meaningful. Scot: [22:39] Yeah, one thing that’s interesting about, kind of like thinking back on 2023 with streaming, There’s a couple of things I’m kind of just pontificating here. I don’t I don’t have an I’m not scoring you. Yeah, I kind of want to use this opportunity to pick your brain. So, you know, we have TikTok shops. I’m going to guess you don’t think that’s live streaming, right? Because it’s like a recorded video and you’re selling an ad next to it. Is that exactly? Jason: [23:04] And when you say I don’t think it’s live streaming, it’s because it’s it’s not. Scot: [23:07] It’s not. You’re not putting it in your definition of live streaming. Yeah. Jason: [23:11] And that’s something different to you. Scot: [23:13] But it’s like a static streaming revenue or something. I don’t know. Jason: [23:17] Yeah, I think there is video commerce, right? And even video commerce is not a very big thing. But most of TikTok shops and YouTube native checkout and these other experiences are what we would call video commerce. And there are now a couple vendors that have decent size revenue helping enable video commerce. So I think of someone like a fireworks, for example, that, that adds, adds video commerce to a lot of e-commerce sites and ad platforms. Scot: [23:45] And then how about, so there was a really interesting experiment and I don’t think we talked about it because we were deep into the holiday data stream, but you know, Amazon had Thursday night prime video football. And then on Thanksgiving, the Friday after Thanksgiving, they bumped the game and did it on Friday. And part of that was if you watched the thing that’s fascinating about the Amazon live stream is there’s like three or four sub streams in there. And one of them had basically QR codes and you could buy right from the ad. Yeah. Is that live streaming or it was like an ad next to a football live stream in your view? Yeah. Jason: [24:23] So I do think that would meet the definition of live streaming because most people watch that game live. live, and they didn’t disclose any data on how those were done. I could tell you in talking to several people that bought those ads, there was not meaningful engagement with the QR codes. [24:43] And so, yeah, you know, I think there’s still lots of experiments. I think there’s use cases where native checkout in video makes a lot of sense. There’s even a few use cases where live video make sense, but they’re edge cases. They’re not, it’s not the main thing. And again, there’s a big difference between China and the US. There is a ton of content that is streamed only live and allows you to buy stuff in China, but it’s mostly deals stuff. It’s kind of like the next generation of guilt.com, if you will. And it’s mostly like very scarce items. So it’s farmers in tier three cities in China selling their produce for the week. And when they’re out, they’re out. And so they don’t store the video and have people watch it later in order because they sell all their apples during the live stream. And that’s a meaningful way people sell stuff in China. It’s just it’s just not I mean like the vast majority of video can be time shifted in the US and then it’s not live streaming and you know we still for the most part don’t have people buying a lot of stuff even you know through through video that’s not live so I feel like because of the success in China it gets a little overhyped in the US and I feel like it hasn’t lived up to the hype a. [26:02] Year ago though I would argue there are a bunch of vendors telling us that this is the next thing and we’re all going to be out of business if we don’t jump on the bandwagon and i can assure you if you did not jump on that bandwagon you you potentially are still in business. [26:14] Got it i know how amazon’s going to solve this so hear me out this is this is an unofficial prediction and i know andy jassy listens to this show so andy here’s how to solve this i’m going to share my entrepreneurial insights number one you have to keep travis and taylor together number Number two, you’ve got to get the Kansas City game next Friday after 2024 is Thanksgiving. Scot: [26:36] And then you have to sell exclusive Taylor merchandise on that game. So that’s how you’re going to get the engagement you want. You got to tap into the Swifties. Jason: [26:45] Yeah, I feel like the Swifty economy is a way to solve any business problem. I’ll totally agree with that. I will throw out Amazon, you know, did lean into live streaming and they had a product called Talk Shop Live. And you know by all accounts it wasn’t very successful the people they they bribed influencers with extra bonuses to produce content and as soon as they stopped offering those bonuses all those influencers moved off the platform and now it there’s a a version of it that still exists but once again it’s not live yeah yeah uh okay so what does that give me three out of three uh Uh, three out of five. Scot: [27:25] Yeah. So you, so three, correct. Two wrong. So that’s good. You have a winning average. That’s very similar to my college career. Jason: [27:32] Yeah. Scot: [27:32] There you go. Yeah. Gentleman’s a D minus. Yeah. Jason: [27:40] So now let’s get to Mr. Sparty Pants, who I suspect and fear did much better than me. So Scott, you’ll remember your first prediction. It’ll come as a shock to no one involves Amazon, right? Amazon uses this 2022 setback slash slowdown slash reversion to the mean for a public resetting of expectations. But behind the scenes, they take share and raise the bar on shipping. Scot: [28:09] Yeah. I, um, the shipping part was surprisingly clairvoyant there because, you know, what they did in 2023 is one of the things Jassy dug into this and they did these, what do they call it? Nodes regional. Yeah. These regional nodes. And they, they started zoning out at a tight level. They were moving too much product too far unnecessarily. And they, they really tightened that up and it allowed them to cut costs pretty dramatically on shipping and get a lot of leverage that that everyone was surprised about but also and this is nice they similarly you know have really cranked up to delivery speed and delighted customers so so you know very rarely in a business do you find something that that both saves money and delight usually you’re having to make a choice you’re like well i could save money but customers are going to hate this this was what very aligned with their, you know, their corporate goals of being like wildly efficient and automated, but at the same time, getting products to customers faster. So I think they had a pretty good year. So they’ve, you know, everyone was in the doldrums about Amazon. Everyone was like, oh, this Jassy guy is really messing things up. And I think he went kind of back to basics and said, let’s squeeze some nickels and dimes out of this shipping thing and get it a little faster. And the customers have reacted to it. So I would score that one correct. Jason: [29:32] Yeah, 100%. I feel like Tim cooked it, and it was a good call on your part. Scot: [29:36] Yeah, absolutely. Jason: [29:38] So your second prediction, and I’d like to harp on this one a while if possible, is that Shopify would get acquired. Remind me, did that happen? Scot: [29:49] It did not, but you have to put this in context. Shopify dropped, what was it, like from $60 billion to $10 billion? They had a precipitous fall, and they had a lot of missteps. So they, you know, when this happened, you and I, I think jointly predicted that them getting into fulfillment was not only a bad idea, but a terrible idea. So this is the year they had to unwind all that, which I thought it would be. [30:18] I didn’t think they would do that, but kudos to them. You know, so I 100% give them this is very hard to make a mistake and fix it out in the public world. It is a very humbling thing, but they sure did. So they got rid of the shipping part. They turned that into a little bit of lemonade where they ended up having a good partnership with a company that acquired Flexport, I believe it is. And then they have made a series of moves that have rebounded not all the way back to where they were, but they have done very well and they are not going to be acquired or they’re not in any kind of existential problems. I do still think there’s a world where meta, I think the natural require for them is meta. And at some point, those companies kind of have to go together. I also, if I recall my thesis on this, it was around the first party, the third party data going away. And I felt like they’d have to go on to a first party network. I still think that’s true. I think they can survive independently. independently but i think to unlock a lot of value they need to be married into a first party entity more tightly so yeah yeah and of course the stock has rebounded a bit so it’s it’s it’s a bigger swing now yeah i don’t you know i you will spoil alert i did not repeat this. [31:42] This prediction i was gonna say you technically only missed that prediction by one word had you had you written shopify with fulfillment is acquired you you kind of would have been right, yeah long time listeners will know i have a long history of repeating predictions and then it never works out for me so i’ve learned my lesson the hard way my my big one was like for what have we we’ve been doing this for like eight times i guess or maybe this is the ninth and you know literally for like five years i predicted amazon would compete with them with fedex and i gave up and then like two years later they announced they’re gonna compete as soon as you stop repeating it that’s when you know it’s gonna happen yeah so maybe i am predicting shopping there you go Oh, head explode emoji. Jason: [32:21] Yeah. So one out of two. So then let’s move on to number three. And innovation in e-commerce powered by AI, such as GPT-4, surprises us by how fast it’s adopted and how cool it is. Scot: [32:36] Yeah, I would say there’s no one innovation that you can kind of say, wow, everyone added X to their site and it was amazing. But I would say it’s pretty amazing how many retailers are using and getting a lot of value out of AGI. So, you know, the one you read a lot about is the helping of writing product description pages and tightening those up. A lot of people are using it for customer service and really improving that. A lot of people are using it for, you know, one of the things that’s a total pain in the e-commerce world is many times you want to take a product image and it’s, you know, it’s in a scene and you want to isolate it. And then you want to spin it around and do a video and inject that thing in another templated video. you know, that was always very hard. And you would send these images to, you know, a, you know, another country where someone would, you know, for $5 an hour, sit there and meticulously isolate the item out of the background and pixel by pixel do that. Now they have, you know, pretty awesome AI systems for doing all those things. And, you know, retailers are using those pretty heavily. So I would say. [33:48] It’s a little hard to score this one. I’ll defer to you. I feel like I’ve been surprised by how much of it was useful. I think a lot of people were kind of saying this is going to be another blockchain, another live stream, another social chat commerce kind of a thing. AI is going to be a flash in the pan. And I would say, you know, companies are really using this. It’s real. It’s impacting the customer experience and improving retailers margins because they can be wildly more efficient. Jason: [34:15] Yeah, no. So I’m for sure giving it to you. I feel like part of the art here is you have to go back in time to last January and put yourself in the context that this was made. And I think there’s a lot of things that are being routinely done today and are pretty darn cool that we would not have believed happened last January. And I think all that text on product detail page is one. The images is for sure one. there used to be whole sections of these trade shows dedicated to companies that were doing image manipulation and image masking and all that stuff. And they’re all gone because the AI is so good. And I would also say they’re now like it’s starting to be pretty meaningful in search. Like Instacart has had generative AI search engine for a while. Walmart just launched generative AI in their search engine. So, you know, there is a lot of flavors of AI that are overhyped and it, But, you know, it is like, I mean, there are a lot of AI snow jobs out there, but also there’s a lot of legitimate stuff. And so I think I definitely have to give you that one. So I think you’re two out of three at the moment. Scot: [35:22] Awesome. Jason: [35:23] And so then we move on to number four. E-commerce accelerates back to the mean in the second half after a mean regression in the first half. E-commerce returns to 10 to 15 percent growth rate. Scot: [35:36] Yeah, I will. The bulk of my e-commerce data comes from Amazon. And I would say Amazon kind of checked this box. But you, the ultimate consumer and gesture and recool charter of all the data, do you agree that I got this one? Jason: [35:53] I do, especially because you were prescient enough to list the growth rate as a range from 10 to 15. So I’d say there was this weird regression where there was even a stage where retail was growing faster than e-commerce. And for sure, by the second half of last year, we were back to sort of normal trends with retail growing at 3% to 4%. And kind of pre-pandemic, e-commerce might have been growing at like 14% or 15%. And it returned to sort of 10% growth. So I think you definitely hit the spirit of this that we’re kind of back to normal. And I think you also hit the technical letter of your prediction because I think we surpassed 10% growth for e-commerce. Scot: [36:40] Cool. So that puts us at three right now. Jason: [36:44] Three for four, which basically means you have to miss this last one for us to tie. Um, and I, I think I’m in trouble because your last one was Sephora and or Ulta moved to a subscription model for new product discovery. Scot: [37:02] Yeah, I, you know, I have to tip my hat to my daughter who previously mentioned is now 17 and was 16. Thanks to her. I spend an inordinate amount of time and money in both Sephora and Ulta. So this one was inspired by her. And yeah, I do have to admit before the show, I didn’t know how I did on this one, but I was looking and I see Sephora has this thing called play exclamation mark. And it’s the beauty inside community community announcing our new monthly beauty subscription box. Play on players. I don’t know if you subscribe to that, Jason, but it sounds like your kind of thing. Jason: [37:39] You said oh yeah i was i was a pilot user you can’t get this kind of camera ready look for the podcast without being totally totally plugged into all those products yeah no i think i think you definitely get this one if i was smarter i should have objected at the time because there’s a debatable way in which this was already happening back then but they had subscribe and save but that doesn’t count that’s like auto that’s like yeah with some sampling and stuff So, but I think it’s much more customer facing and prominent now. So I, I’m giving it to you. So I’m giving you four out of five, which any year would be good performance. And in this particular year, it’s both good performance and enough to declare you the winner. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. And I will be sending the Claret Jug to your home to live for the next year. Scot: [38:30] Awesome. Thanks. Thanks everybody. Jason: [38:31] Everybody I would like to I am a little salty to the folks at Shopify Toby if you’re listening if you had only said yes to whatever acquisition came your way I would have been 100 so thanks dude thanks for everything so now for the three listeners that have hung out for our 15 minute of pre-ramble and our and our 20 minutes of scoring you finally get to the meat what the heck is going to happen in the world of e-commerce in the next year Nostradamus Thomas? Scot: [39:00] Yeah, let’s continue. I just went, so why don’t you give us the Jason Retail Geek Goldberg 2024 predictions for retail. Go. Jason: [39:12] Yeah. So last year, retail media networks were super hot. I think this year is going to be the year that the big retail media networks really start focusing on their in-store audiences. So I’m calling it Retail Media Networks Go In-Store, and I’m predicting that at least one top 20 retailer will launch a digital in-store ad network. So some kind of screens or interactive displays in a store that you can buy ads on through the retail media network. Scot: [39:41] So I’m in Sephora or whatever retailer. There’s a cool screen telling me about this exciting new Kardashian lip color. And I go and interact with it and suddenly an ad comes up for something else. Jason: [39:53] Exactly. Scot: [39:55] Okay. Jason: [39:56] Switching you to the Taylor Swift cosmetics from the Kim Kardashian ones. Scot: [39:59] Whoa. Swifties make another appearance in the predictions. All right. Jason: [40:03] Exactly. My second one, I know what the spirit is. I struggled to make it specific enough that we can measure it, but I tried. So we’ve been talking a lot about AI. You had an AI prediction last year. [40:16] I think while a lot of these trends kind of get really buzzy and then die down, I think AI is the real deal. I think despite all the hype, AI is going to be even hotter in in December of 2024 than it is right now. And so the way I’m gonna try to quantify that is, I think by December of 2024, it will be more common than not that if there’s a text box in an e-commerce experience, it’s gonna be powered by generative AI. So we’re gonna start typing sentences into all of these search engines instead of keywords. I think it is gonna take consumers a little while to learn to do that after it’s possible, but I think that’ll be really common. And then I think at least one retailer is going to have an AI-based auto replenishment solution that has significant adoption. And I need to clarify that because one retailer, Walmart, announced it at CES yesterday. So I don’t think it exists yet, but they’ve announced that they’re going to do it. And my prediction is not that they’re going to try it. My prediction is that it will work or someone else will do one that works. and it’s very different than like a subscription-based thing where you automatically get a fixed amount of something. This is going to be, you know, handing the keys to the computer and letting the computer decide how much peanut butter you’re going through and making sure that I send you new peanut butter whenever you need it. Scot: [41:38] Hmm. Cool. Jason: [41:40] So that’s number two. Number three, I really think this is going to be a bifurcated year in terms of retail prospects. I think we’re going to have a handful of retailers that are really going to do well, that are poised for some growth rebounds from the last couple of years. Yeah, I kind of think Amazon and Walmart are both going to be in that bucket. I think we’re going to disagree about this, but I think some of the Chinese companies like Timu and Shein might might be in that bucket. And I think there’s going to be some other traditional retailers that really struggle. And so you’re either going to do well or do poorly. I don’t think there’s going to be very many retailers kind of treading water in the middle of the road. And as a result, I think we’re going to have a couple more significant bankruptcies in 2024. So the Grim Reaper is at it again. I’m once again predicting that at least two well-known retailers will close their doors and this year i’ll be slightly more specific at least one of them is going to be a specialty retailer so in a category and another is going to be a general merchant or department store so i hope to be wrong on that one but it is what it is that’s prediction number three how about a little size this can be like a two unit kind of a thing or no no no these uh yeah like these have to be a little more two two top 50 retailers like oh okay oh let’s write Write that in because I won’t remember that next time. Okay. [43:02] I will add it and then delete it in about six months when you’ve forgotten. No, I’ll remember. Yeah. So number four, and this is where I think it’s going to start getting fun. [43:12] I actually think that we’re going to see more Chinese companies focusing on Western consumers. So I actually think that for a variety of reasons, the Chinese economy is not as hot as it once was. And I think it’s going to take a little while to recover. So I think there’s going to be more entrepreneurs in China trying to export their solutions to other parts of the world. And, you know, Timu and Xi’an are certainly the two most noted examples of companies that don’t sell in China, but do sell in the U.S. I think Xi’an is going to successfully execute a Western IPO next year. And I think Timu is going to continue to grow. And very specifically, I think by 20, by the end of 2024, Timu is going to have at least 75% of the e-commerce revenue that we see from a very well-established U S retailer like target for e-commerce. Scot: [44:06] Okay. Now, are you implying it comes out of targets hide or that just like that? Jason: [44:10] I do think it’s partially is going to come out of targets hide, but I’m not specifically saying that I feel like target could come down a little bit and that would help me make this. but I actually think e-commerce will not be the sore spot at Target next year. Scot: [44:25] Got it. Jason: [44:27] So that’s number four. I’m bullish on the Chinese companies coming to America. And my fifth one is going to go to grocery e-commerce. So, you know, grocery e-commerce grew a lot during the pandemic, but fun fact, grocery e-commerce actually shrunk a little bit in 2023 relative to the big growth they had in 2022, like partly because groceries got more expensive, people, it was safer to go back to grocery stores. And so people kind of regressed a little bit in their e-commerce shopping. So the best source we have for e-commerce data for grocery is BricksMeetClicks, which is a big, it’s a survey, but it’s a big survey. So the BricksMeetClicks folks said that grocery e-commerce shrunk by about 2%. And I’m saying they’re going to grow by like 25% in 2024. So very meaningful acceleration and growth. Scot: [45:18] Cool. Jason: [45:20] So those are my five. Some years we did bonuses. is. I’m just going to throw out some other things that I guarantee are going to happen, but I don’t want to bother making them predictions because they’re too hard to measure. But as I did this year, again, I’m going to say live streaming is not a major thing next year either. And I’ll throw the metaverse and crypto in there as well. If you’re an innovative startup that’s going to solve retail with live streaming the metaverse and crypto, please don’t send me an email. Scot: [45:46] But it’s on blockchain. Jason: [45:48] Yeah, exactly. If you’re doing anything on blockchain, the first thing i need to know is why i can’t just do it with a database and why i need a distributed ledger so if you can’t answer that question don’t call me um because blockchain yeah, i i think another one that really annoys me i couldn’t figure out how to measure this so i didn’t make it a forecast but i think you’re going to hear a lot less retail ceos blaming their poor performance on retail crime next year if you don’t know or haven’t been following it That’s mostly a scam. Shrink in retail is down. There is this new kind of crime called organized retail crime, which is awful, and people get hurt, and people should stop doing it. But it’s not economically meaningful, and it’s not the reason that any of these retailers miss their guidance. And I think we’re going to see. [46:34] And CEOs stop leaning on it as much because it’s becoming obvious that it’s a false excuse. And lastly, I was bullish on some of the big retail media networks in my predictions. I said one would go in-store. But a corollary to that, there’s a lot of really small retailers that are seeing the success of the big retailers and trying to launch retail media networks. And yeah, that’s not going to work. So if you’re, you know, a relatively unsuccessful e-commerce, a specialty retailer with small e-commerce or you’re a regional retailer, you’re just not going to have enough traffic and a big enough audience to make it work. So I think, you know, I’m starting to see some retailers that are probably on the wrong side of the scale equation, trying retail media networks and I’m mostly not optimistic for them. So, so you heard it here first. Scot: [47:24] So the world where they patch together in like a little alliance and like a a Battlestar Galactica kind of thing and get some heft. Jason: [47:32] There is. There absolutely is. And the most notable place that’s happening is in Europe. And kind of interestingly, the biggest retailer in Europe, Carrefour, like sort of embrace that. Like Carrefour is the Battlestar Galactica in this, this like, you know, convoy of ragtag, this fleet of ragtag ships. And so, so you’re exactly right. And I heard the giant French advertising company that is helping them do it is decent too. Scot: [47:59] Yeah. Soccer blue. One clarification on your grocery e-commerce thing. You know, that’s a big number, right? That’s like 30% off a big base, 25%. Are you counting like curb pickup on that? Jason: [48:15] Yeah. So I’m specifically using the Bricksmeet Clicks metric, which does include three categories of grocery. It’s curbside pickup, which is over 50% of grocery in most U.S. cities. It’s home delivery of groceries. And it is actually shipping of some grocery items, but that’s a relatively small one. Yeah. Scot: [48:37] So Instacart would be kind of captured in there as well. Jason: [48:39] They would. Yeah. Yeah. Side note, I actually, I think I’m not as bullish on Instacart as I think you’re going to be, but they will certainly be part of it that helps me make this prediction. Scot: [48:51] Cool. And we should have said this before we got into the predictions, but what we do is we do these independently and then we splat them into our shared show notes that we have here that Jason and I use. Jason: [48:59] Yeah. So it would have been possible for us to have the same predictions, but we did not. Scot: [49:03] We never see each other’s beforehand. So that’s a part of the fun. So there’s no, no, no planning or, or, you know, kind of swapping and prediction. Jason: [49:12] No cross-contamination. Scot: [49:14] But because we’re, we don’t have any revenue, we don’t have Pricewaterhouse verifying that. You’re just going to have to trust us. Okay. Jason: [49:23] What do you have, Scott? Scot: [49:24] Well, I want to point out that I see you snuck in three bonuses. So you took, so yet again, you’re hogging the stage, but that’s okay. You’re first in the, in the title there. Jason: [49:34] And I have many more words in my title in case you didn’t notice. Scot: [49:38] Being a rule follower, I have five predictions, not eight. And my first one is Amazon’s going to relaunch Alexa on a native LLM. So, yeah, Alexa and the whole Siri and what’s the Xbox one, Katana, you know, Cortana, they they once you interact with the chat GPT voice, which is a little slow, but it’s a little slower than those. But the responses are so much better. You really want to just throw your Alexa in the garbage can. So, you know, this is tricky because Amazon doesn’t have an LLM. The things they’ve done on AWS are kind of like geared towards being neutral, and I think they’re not going to stay neutral. So they have to be neutral, and then they have to rewrite Alexa on that. Maybe it’s tricky because what do you do? Do you call it like new Alexa, or do you change their name, or you’ve got some brand equity built there? So it’s going to be interesting to see how they navigate that. that. [50:40] And then number two is I don’t understand how Timu isn’t just wish dot 2.0. So in the early days of wish, everyone got all excited and they’re like, oh my God, this is amazing. I can buy all this cheap stuff and it comes and it’s amazing. And it’s like a dollar drone and it’s awesome. And then it showed up six months later and then it broke in five minutes. So I think there’s a lot of buzz around these things. I think a lot of this stuff gets supported by China and free shipping and these kinds of things that the Chinese government does to help give their Chinese-born companies an edge. And none of that is infinite, right? So we saw that with Alibaba and Alipay. That whole thing kind of has had a whole situation in China where it got too big and they didn’t like the success there. And Jack Ma, and Lord knows what’s happened to him. I think these, I think Timu is kind of, there’s gonna be some kind of an episode like that. And this was my, I kind of use the word falters. So that kind of thing. I don’t think they’re gonna do an IPO. That would really shock me. Jason: [51:48] Yeah, I think we’re going to, I mean. Scot: [51:50] Yeah. So we’re misaligned on that one, which makes it fun. Yeah, either could happen. Jason: [51:53] There are smart people that think on both sides of that one, but that’s a fun one. We’ll agree to disagree. Scot: [51:58] But both can’t happen. So this is a zero-sum game one for sure. Jason: [52:01] Exactly. Scot: [52:02] And then, you know, this one I guess we’re aligned on, but I kind of got more specific because you always do super generic ones that make it easier to get them. [52:13] Retail media networks are currently and i found a there’s a research firm called core site so like you i wanted to kind of pick a measurement stick here and they say the whole world that that whole thing in 2023 did 52 billion and it’s growing 20 so that’s their data and i said my prediction thus is it’s going to accelerate this year to 30 growth and that brings it to to about 67 billion. So, you know, clever listeners that listen to our Amazon recaps, you’ll know, you’ll notice that, well, okay, if that’s at 52 billion, Amazon ads are at like, what are they? Like 49, 45 billion? So, but that’s a run rate. So for that Amazon number, you take the quarter, and the last one we talked about was Q3, Q4 will be coming out soon. So we took the Q3 number, multiply it by four, and that’s how you get the 45-ish. So, so really doing 15 a quarter, but the prior quarter was like, like 10 ish. And the prior quarter that was like eight ish. So, so Amazon didn’t do 45 in a year. They probably did more like 35 to 30 in the year. But the trajectory is such that when you do the run rate, it comes out to be a big number. So, so they are a large part of that 52 billion, but they’re not like 90% of it. They’re, you know, 65% of it or so. So there’s that one. Jason: [53:34] Okay. Scot: [53:35] Number four, and this one we’re kind of aligned on, surprisingly, even though the specifics you disagree with. Here, I’ve been watching the Instacart. That was an important IPO because a lot of people thought it was going to open the IPO window. And then, you know, wah, wah, it did not. So that company IPO’d at $33. We did a deep dive on that, and that was a lot of fun. And now it is down to $23, kind of low $20s, and it’s kind of hovered there since the IPO. I think they’re going to really be able to solve their, they have a real rudimentary ad system. I think they’re going to really be able to turn the crank on that. And that’s going to make money rain out of the sky for them. And Wall Street’s going to wake up and say, this is pretty interesting. And then the stock’s going to respond and pop to over $40. So I wanted to do something that felt like a bit of a double from here and certainly above the IPO price. So, so I think, I think they’re going to decode that in 24. Now you, you kind of put it into your bricksy bricks and clicks thingy. It’s kind of in that bucket, but I was talking about stock price. Yeah. Jason: [54:42] I mean, they’re somewhat independent. Both could happen or both could not happen. Like I personally am going to take the under on Instacart. I actually think grocery e-commerce is going to grow, but it’s predominantly going to be the, the native providers of the goods. Like Instacart doesn’t have any groceries. They’re an intermediary and there’s pros and cons to that model, but I, I, I think they’re going to grow less than some of these other guys. So we’ll, we’ll see what that does to their stock. Like you kind of made it a stock prediction. So obviously that, that comes with its own dynamics. Scot: [55:16] Yeah. And there, there is a world where this one horribly falls apart. Like my Shopify prediction where, you know, they Instacart relies on this network of grocery stores kind of staying in the network and a big one like a Kroger which also owns a bunch of sub brands like Harris Teeter and whatnot if a big one leaves then the whole thing could kind of crumble and I this could be the worst prediction I ever made so who knows that’s part of the fun if it does you get to mock me endlessly for at least a year and then this last one is I kind of came back to the the the timu sheen uh well and I said well While everyone thinks, I actually had a typo there, so let me fix that. While everyone thinks Xi’an and Timu are going to take share from Amazon, this is every article that I read is Wall Street’s fighting a wall of worry about these these, you know, Eastern intruders and all this kind of jazz, these Chinese upstarts. I think that’s wrong. I think Amazon’s fine. [56:16] And, you know, Xi’an is really largely focused on apparel. So that’s really the kind of one that got me here. I think Shein is actually taking share from the fast fashion. I think Amazon has a fair amount of this type of product and will do fine with the underlying trend. They’re actually riding it themselves. And I think the ones that are getting hurt are the non-fast fashion, the slow, the glacierly slow fashion. So this is going to be your Nordstroms on the high end, your Macy’s, your Kohl’s, your Target, the apparel part of Target. I think those are going to really suffer. And as these Chinese upstarts really start scaling, that’s who’s going to get hurt. And I tried to put a number in there and I said, there’s going to be material share and I’d call it 10%. Jason: [57:03] Okay, so just clarifying, are you saying like Nordstrom, Macy’s, and Target e-commerce go down by 10% because she and Timu go up? Scot: [57:14] Yeah, it’s really the apparel. So I think it’s probably going to be hard to measure Target because I don’t think they break it out, do they? Jason: [57:19] I don’t think they break out e-commerce apparel. They do break out total apparel, but yeah. Scot: [57:25] Yeah, so I’m going to say Nordstrom and Macy’s just as companies. I think it’s going to hurt both offline and online. Jason: [57:31] Line it’s gonna like chew away at the apparel space and the traditional apparel space harder than you know those have already been under a fair amount of stress and it is gonna be yeah stress now I kind of agree with the spirit of this one again I think it’s hard to measure but I I would tend to concur like Amazon would like to be in the fast fashion and apparel space but they really haven’t won it yet so you can’t take something from someone that they They don’t already have. And Timu is a little different animal than Sheen at the moment. I’m sure Amazon is losing some share to Timu, but I have a feeling Amazon grows so much that it’s not going to be measurable in any way. So yeah, those are fun. It’s going to be interesting to see if you can hold on to the trophy. Obviously, 20 minutes after we made our predictions, I suspect we’re both feeling okay about them, but it’s going to be fun to watch the year play out and see what we got right and what we missed. Scot: [58:33] Yeah, yeah. This was an extra long one because we had a lot to cover. We appreciate you sticking with us to the end. And until next time. Jason: [58:43] Happy commercing.

EP315 - 2023 Turkey5 Recap with Salesforces Rob Garf

Episode 315 is a recap of Turkey5 (The five days from Thanksgiving through Cyber Monday) 2023 with Rob Garf, Vice President and General Manager, Retail at Salesforce. This is Robs' Six time on the show, having previously been on episodes 110, 248, 282, 299, and 313.

Jason and Scot discuss the "Turkey 5" with their guest Rob Garf, VP and GM for retail at Salesforce. They analyze data from various sources to provide insights into the holiday shopping season. According to the U.S. Department of Commerce, e-commerce grew 7.75% in Q3, while total retail only grew 2%. Jason emphasizes the need for e-commerce to grow at least 7.7% in Q4 to stay on track. Adobe's data shows that Black Friday sales were up 7.5% and Cyber Monday sales were up 12.4% from the previous year. The speakers also discuss data from BigCommerce, MasterCard, and Salesforce, highlighting growth in online sales on Cyber Monday and Black Friday.

Rob Garf adds his observations on retail industry trends, noting an increase in demand and robust pricing. He mentions a rebound in demand in Europe, excluding the UK, and highlights retailers' focus on profitability and inventory levels. The discussion then turns to Amazon's innovative advertising approach during a Friday NFL game, where shoppable ads were displayed via QR codes. Jason believes this strategy will benefit Amazon, as it monetizes viewership and reinforces the brand.

Discounting played a significant role in driving demand during Cyber Week, with retailers offering an average of 30% off. Consumers were patient, waiting for attractive deals, while retailers managed their inventory and discounting strategies well. The luxury category, however, did not perform as strongly, with only a slight increase or even a decrease in sales. The hosts touch on the resale market and the growing popularity of Buy Now, Pay Later (BNPL) options and mobile wallets. They discuss the potential impact of mobile wallets on shopping behavior and note that BNPL resonates with new consumers and has replaced layaway.

Finally, the hosts mention the passing of Charlie Munger and the filing of an IPO by Xi'an, encouraging listeners to support the show and announcing more holiday shopping data and reports on Salesforce.com.

0:00:46 Introduction to the Jason and Scot Show 0:05:04 Black Friday: First Sales for Vendors 0:14:06 Softness in Consumer Electronics and Toys Market 0:14:55 Black Friday and Cyber Monday Impact on Holiday Season Shape 0:16:32 Retailers' Inventory Management and Positive Growth Forecast 0:17:47 Retailers analyzing profitability and customer profitability. 0:18:29 Increase in Demand and Robust Pricing 0:22:34 Amazon's Innovative Advertising and Potential Profitability for Holiday 0:26:27 Discount rates over Cyber Week in comparison to previous years 0:29:04 Retailers' management of inventory and transparency in discounting strategy 0:31:52 Consumer behavior and the rise of Buy Now, Pay Later (BNPL) 0:33:32 Mobile wallets and the impact on checkout process and shopping experiences 0:35:26 Buy Now, Pay Later Growing and Replacing Layaway 0:37:22 Charlie Munger's Passing and Xi'an's IPO Announcement

Throughout this episode make liberal use of real-time data from Salesforce Shopping Insights HQ, which tracks how 1.5+ billion consumers are shaping shopping trends. You can see a real-time holiday dashboard, powered by Tableau so you can interact with the data yourself on the Salesforce Holiday Insights page.

Episode 313 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded on Tuesday November 28th, 2023.

 http://jasonandscot.com

Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, Chief Commerce Strategy Officer at Publicis, and Scot Wingo, CEO of GetSpiffy and Co-Founder of ChannelAdvisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing.

Transcript

Jason: [0:23] Welcome to the Jason and Scot Show. This is episode 315 being recorded on Tuesday, November 28th. I'm your host, Jason Retail Geek Goldberg, and as usual, I'm here with your co-host, Scot Wingo. Scot: [0:39] Hey, Jason, and welcome back, Jason and Scot Show listeners. Vigilant listeners will remember that we promised you a delicious turkey five

Introduction to the Jason and Scot Show

[0:47] sandwich starring none other than Rob Garf, VP and GM for retail at Salesforce. And that's what we're delivering today. Rob was here way back on episode 313 on November 8th. And he is back here today to tell us what happened during the Turkey 5. Welcome back, Rob. Rob: [1:05] Thanks for having me, Jason, Scot. Always a pleasure and look forward to getting into some of this really fun data. Scot: [1:12] Yeah, this is your record sixth time. So your old hat here. Before we jump in, we do want to just kind of set the table, keeping with the post-Thanksgiving, theme with some leftovers. I saw what you did there. Yeah. And we, meaning Jason and his army of interns, have gathered a bunch of data from other sources. So we just want to give listeners that, and we know you have your own data, and we want to paint a complete picture. So, Jason, give us the quick and dirty rundown of other data that we've seen out there covering the holiday period so far. Jason: [1:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's do it. And side note, Rob, we're going to keep making you come back till you get it right. Rob: [1:50] I appreciate it. I'm here. Jason: [1:52] I'll do what you need. Awesome. So, super quick reminder, Q3 data from the U.S. Department of Commerce, e-commerce for the quarter grew 7.75%, over, the previous year. year, total retail only grew 2% from the previous year. And so if you take e-commerce out of total retail, brick and mortar in Q3 2023 only grew 1.08%, so lower than traditional. So when you come into the beginning of Q4 and holiday in particular, in my mind, e-commerce has to grow at 7.7% just to stay at par. And brick-and-mortar has to grow more than that one percent. [2:37] So, and I like to start with the lesser data and work our way up to the gold standard, very best data we have, which is, of course, the Rob Garth. So our friends at adobe which have a different data set but similar methodology and slightly different definition so you can't perfectly compare apples to apples, they said black friday sales were nine point eight billion in the us which is up seven point five percent from the year before so that would basically be right at that par i was just talking about, they said cyber monday was up to twelve point four percent and that was hot off the press so i wasn't able to do the math on what growth rate that was. They said for the whole month of November year to date, that they see November up 4.6% from last year. So kind of below that par. These are all numbers Adobe is giving for e-commerce. [3:26] And of particular note, and I know we'll talk about this more, they've seen a significant uptick in use of Buy Now, Pay Later services, and they've seen deeper discounting than we saw last year. Now, Shopify is really out there with a big news cycle. And I don't want to say they won up Salesforce, but they bought the sphere in Las Vegas and broadcast their data on the outside of the sphere, which visually is, is super cool. But their data isn't so useful because they don't report same store sales. They had a, you know, some unknown basket of merchants that sold a bunch of stuff last year, and they had some unknown basket of merchants that sold more stuff this year, and we don't know if the same merchants were here this year and last year or if they added a bunch of merchants or, or if this is true growth. So, so while the Shopify numbers are interesting, if you're investing in Shopify, they don't tell us a lot about what's happening in the e-commerce world. I did see a super interesting quote from Harley Finkelstein, who's the president of Shopify, and it's possibly, possibly that he just misworded this, but he was excited after Black Friday and he said 17.5, thousand. So $17,500. [4:41] Vendors made their first sale this Black Friday weekend. So I took that to mean, not that they launched on Friday just in time for Black Friday, but that this was their first Black Friday where they sold anything. So that's 17.5 thousand new merchants. [4:58] And then he said, in total, 55 thousand merchants set their all-time daily record on Black Friday.

Black Friday: First Sales for Vendors

[5:05] And while those two numbers sound impressive, if you kind of think about it for a second, you go, wait, the vast majority of merchants on Shopify that are B2C are going to sell their record. Cyber Monday hasn't happened yet, so take that out of the equation, are going to set their all-time record on Black Friday. So not surprised, you would expect the vast majority of all merchants to set their Black Friday record. And 17.5 thousand of them are new. So what that says is there's only 37 thousand merchants that are a year old on Shopify that sold more this Friday than last year on Black Friday. And that's, I guess, less than I would expect based on the usual reports we get from Shopify. So that, I'll just record that as a moment and our stock analysts that cover Shopify listening on the call can weigh in on that one. [5:58] BigCommerce, a slightly weirder data set. They saw an outlier, they saw 14% growth, but again, random, they're not trying to report at the industry, they're just reporting their clients. And then a particularly interesting one to me is MasterCard. I have a love-hate relationship with MasterCard. Unlike all the rest of you, MasterCard gets a set of data for stores and retailers, so they try to forecast what happened in retail, which is super valuable. Historically, I've seen some weird deviations from MasterCard that make me cautious about their numbers. But this year, they reported Black Friday, they did not report Cyber Monday. Their Black Friday number was up 8.5% year over year for eCommerce. [6:39] Which is at the high side of the mean for all these other datasets. And they reported that on Friday, total retail sales were up 2.5%. But if you back eCommerce out of that number, brick and mortar was only up 1.1%. So basically, I would call all those numbers par with our Q3 numbers. So, that kind of sets the table. Scot, take us through what we learned from Salesforce. Scot: [7:11] Yeah. So, a million questions, Rob. Let's start with, it seems like one of the biggest interesting battle royales is, A, why was Rob's face not on the sphere? And then B, it seems like one of the data sets is saying Cyber Monday is much bigger than Black Friday. And then in your pre-show, you had said you guys are seeing Black Friday exceed Cyber Monday. So let's start there. Which was bigger? Rob: [7:37] Yeah. Well, first of all, I lost the coin flip and Astro or Cody, which are critters in Salesforce world, won. So they got their faces along with Einstein on the sphere a couple of weeks ago during F1. So I'm still going for it next year, but we'll see what happens. But I digress. Let's get into the numbers. So yeah, we are seeing, you called it a battle royal. I appreciate any reference to 1980s wrestling, by the way. So thank you very much, but let's not go down that path. That could be a whole other podcast. But what we are seeing is, as you mentioned, a battle between Cyber Monday and Black Friday for supremacy. [8:19] And they are going back and forth. What we found in our data in 2019, Black Friday eclipsed Cyber Monday and has remained there, especially outside of the United States. And so we're seeing big growth and, you know, partly what's contributing to that is not only Alibaba, which has been in place for some time, but Timu and Xi'an, which I know you gentlemen like to talk about. So regardless what I think, two things based on all the data that you provide, and I appreciate the broad perspective that you share here, is people are actually buying. They might not be buying as much as they were in the past and throughout the pandemic, but But there is demand. And you know, I think that's important because when we look at our numbers and just to put it out there for Cyber Monday, and we can bounce around here wherever you'd like to go, is we chalked our number at 12.6. [9:13] Billion in the United States, and that's a growth of 3%. And I'll call it a healthy growth of 3%. And the reason being is, for the first time in five quarters, we saw growth being generated by increased consumer demand and not just merely higher prices, which is our indicator for inflation. And just to put it in perspective, let me talk about Black Friday here, because you mentioned the battle that's happening here. We saw 16.4 billion in online sales for Black Friday in the US, and that was up 9%. And so, as I mentioned, what this shows us is people are buying. What it's also showing is that there's a high concentration of online sales for those two days. And sure, you two gentlemen are laughing because that's been that way since Cyber Monday was coined in 2005, but there has been a smoothing out of demand, particularly around Cyber Week or cyber five for the last several years, but there's been a stark shift back to those two prominent days. Jason: [10:27] So interesting on the top line numbers, one of the, you mentioned that you're, you're seeing items increase, not just prices, right? Which kind of opens the whole specter of, of it's, we're not just seeing growth for from inflation, right? Are there any categories that you're like going into the holiday? It was like, hey, the growth was in essentials and food and things like that. And discretionary items like apparel and electronics and toys were not doing well. Did you guys see, like, are people opening their wallets on discretionary items or are sales continuing to be these kind of essentials and affordable luxuries? Rob: [11:06] Yeah, it's a mixed bag. And I do want to underscore your point, Jason, around. Growth being generated by more volume and not just higher prices. So that's exactly what we saw. 3% growth when you're seeing 9% increase in inflation is a tough equation to, be profitable and to work out in the consumer's favor. But in this case, we are seeing more demand. And the demand, as I mentioned, is a mixed bag. On one hand, we are seeing really nice growth in areas like makeup and health and beauty, skin care. We're also seeing nice growth in active apparel and active footwear as well. I categorize that actually as comfort. In uncertain times when consumers certainly are looking to really take control of their household balance sheets, oftentimes you migrate to comfort. You know, you can talk about comfort food, but this is just comfort gifting and comfort what you put on your body, both clothes and literally on your skin. And so we are seeing nice growth there where actually, if you think about it over the last 12 months, those categories have been hit a bit in terms of the growth curve. [12:20] And what you're seeing on the other side actually is luxury is softening a little bit, which which I think is important to note because for the last, I mean, gosh, through the pandemic and after, luxury was one of the most, no, not one of the most, was the most resilient categories. And we're starting to see a bit of breaking down, especially around the aspirational luxury side. So we're going to keep an eye on that. I will mention one other thing, actually, as it relates to categories that are doing well in the holiday and that is food and beverage and gifting, you know, in terms of. What people look to for comfort and experiences, they are gifting chocolate, they're gifting wine, they're gifting various gift baskets. We saw really strong growth, even starting, you know, the Tuesday before Thanksgiving and working its way through the entire holiday. Jason: [13:22] Interesting. One category or two categories that come up a lot, like coming into holiday, electronics had been in a pretty big swamp, like for the whole pandemic. And I'm curious, I've seen conflicting data about whether electronics are back or whether they're still soft. Traditionally, electronics would be one of the fastest movers for holiday. Rob: [13:43] Of course, of course. Yeah, I mean, consumer electronics, toys, right? Those two are still pretty soft. I think you really though need to put it in perspective in terms of the astronomical growth we saw on those categories over the last four years. I haven't done the math. You're really good at this, Jason. So I'm gonna put you to task maybe on your next LinkedIn post, but I am willing to wager, and I'm not a betting person, so I'm not really willing

Softness in Consumer Electronics and Toys Market

[14:07] to wager, but I'd love to see the CAGR of those categories over the last four years. I'm guessing they're in really strong, like high team growth, which any retailer would be happy with that on a given holiday time period. So there is a bit of softening, but I think it's really important to understand it in context with the growth that they've seen over the last several years. Scot: [14:32] Cool. Um, so, you know, with these good showings and Cyber Monday and Black Friday, what's that mean for the rest of the season? Are you guys like doubling your forecast, tripling or, and what's that mean for the shape? We talk a lot about the shape of the holiday. Any, any, any changes to your thoughts on those? Rob: [14:49] Yeah. The shape or the anatomy. I've been asked this by a lot of retail executives because they're being asked by their board, like, are you sandbagging us?

Black Friday and Cyber Monday Impact on Holiday Season Shape

[14:59] We need to really relook at this forecast. We crawled through the data over the last couple of days just to look through our model and see if we could see the data in different ways through different lenses. The reality is what we're seeing is that Black Friday and Cyber Monday were taking market share from the bookends of the holiday, from earlier on and later on, right before the shipping cutoff date. And so for the last five years or so, we have been seeing a smoothing out of demand for the seven days that we define as Cyber Week, Tuesday before Thanksgiving through Cyber Monday. And Thanksgiving became a really strong and important day, especially on the mobile device, especially as consumers. [15:47] Either being distracted or inspired, whichever you want to think about it, on the couch after Thanksgiving meal, looking at social. [15:54] But we've seen a snapback of the higher concentration of Black Friday and Cyber Monday. So it's not like there's incremental sales, and that's what I think you were getting at, right? I don't think there's incremental sales that we can now account for. We're still staying to our forecast of 1% growth in the US for November and December. That's how we define holiday and in the US and we're looking at 4% growth globally, really led by Europe. And I want to just put a caveat on this. Not only again, are we seeing that growth come from increased demand, but retailers have gotten smarter.

Retailers' Inventory Management and Positive Growth Forecast

[16:33] I don't know if it's smarter, but they were very deliberate going into this holiday starting six months ago about managing inventory levels and margins. So there's been a lot of talk about how are we going to handle shipping? How are we going to handle our return policies? And also, how are we going to think about our open to buys? And so I think most retail executives, especially on the merchandising side, are feeling pretty good because they're working their way through the inventory, which by the way, as you know, has been a big glut over the last couple of years, especially in 2021, when so many products were stuck in the port of LA. I mean, that just created this bullwhip effect that we're still just getting our arms around now and getting over the hump. And so that's my long way of saying is we're not reforecasting. We still feel positive with that 1% and 4% growth in U.S. and global, respectively, because. [17:24] Retailers are taking a very close look at overall profitability and this concept of customer profitability as well. Scot: [17:32] Yeah. You'd said, so it seems like the curve was kind of flattening out and now it's like steepening again it's like kind of coming in at the edges and in kind of like shaping up in the middle part of the bell curve which is like the that,

Retailers analyzing profitability and customer profitability.

[17:48] cyber week. Is that that's right. Okay. Rob: [17:51] That's really good. Yeah. It's kind of snapped back. Right. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Scot: [17:56] It's going to make that sound. Rob: [17:58] Where's the sound effects in turn? Are they there? Are they on call? Can we get that bullying? Jason: [18:02] I'll be adding that in post. Scot: [18:06] You had said something that kind of piqued my interest. You said people are kind of, you know, I may be rephrasing this wrong, but you said kind of demand is back. Like I knew it almost felt like you were saying before there was, you know, people were shopping, but it didn't seem like, you know, a new increase in demand. And now it is because you're seeing robustness in pricing and stuff. Is that say a little bit more about that? I'll make sure I understand what you were saying.

Increase in Demand and Robust Pricing

Rob: [18:32] Yeah, you got it. So yes. And I, again, and don't think retail executives are doing backflips and thinking that we're getting back to roaring double-digit, growth coming out of the holiday. But what this is an indication, and by the way, we're seeing this as a leading indicator in Europe, let's exclude the UK, which is probably in the same rebound curve as the United States and Canada, but you take continental Europe and who are about two, maybe three quarters ahead of us in terms of the rebound, we're seeing inflation settle, the average selling prices settle down and people are buying more. So we're seeing average orders volume higher. We're seeing slight uptick in units per transaction, only slight. But the order piece is super interesting. We're seeing traffic. We're seeing continued really strong traffic. People are just really being diligent and patient and shopping a lot and looking for the best deals. And we'll have to talk about that in terms of what discounting patterns we saw as well. So that's my long way of saying Scot is people are buying more, they're doing it. By still making trade-offs. So there is a sense of let's load up on some essentials while we're getting good deals. [19:57] Let's look for travel, entertainment, like experiences. And you have to also think of the adjacent categories like luggage, as an example, if you're going on a trip, do you need something new to put your clothes in? And though they are, again, increasing, as I mentioned. So as I think about the sentiment, even with a 1% in the US growth, 4% global is what we're forecasting for the full holiday, retailers are feeling good about that. They want to exit this holiday on a really good foundation of profitability, a really good foundation on inventory levels. And most every retailer I'm talking to has a growth mindset. They're thinking about customer acquisition, finding new ways to do that because customer acquisition costs are still off the charts, but also loyalty, finding new ways to create stickiness, looking for adjacent categories, adjacent services, looking for partnerships to supplement what they're doing organically. And I mean, this would take us down a whole other path, but they're leaning into data. They're leaning into AI to better understand who those consumers are and what they're likely to buy and making sure they're able to create profitable customers. How was that soapbox? I just rattled off too much, too fast. Jason: [21:13] So hopefully you were able to digest it. But you kind of, you glossed over what they're really looking at is just selling ads to brands. Rob: [21:18] That's fair. Thank you. I could have just said that. You're right. That's a very good point. And yeah, we could, I love your take actually, seriously, given that on Amazon's move for the football game on Friday. Jason: [21:31] Yeah. So that's a great point. And maybe just to catch up listeners that might not have followed it. Something very different and unique for this year is that the NFL, you know, normally they have a Thursday game and they have Sunday games and a Monday night game. On Thanksgiving, they have Thursday day games during Thanksgiving. This year, they added a Friday game for the first time. And the sponsor of that Friday game was Amazon. It was broadcast on Amazon Prime, and Amazon actually had shoppable ads via QR codes in the broadcast, all sort of innovative, cool, new stuff. [22:11] The early read is that the viewership was pretty good for the Friday game. There's no history, so we have nothing to compare it to. I would argue fewer people are going and standing in line at brick and mortar stores for door busters. You know, the little bit of data we do have on brick and mortar shows that, like, there wasn't a huge, huge spike in in-store shopping. I feel like Friday has become more of an online shopping day,

Amazon's Innovative Advertising and Potential Profitability for Holiday

[22:36] which means people are home more, which means there's an opportunity to watch a football game. I kind of don't imagine that the interactive ad formats, like, you know, we're high volume and really move the needle, but they're innovative. And I do think that that Friday game is likely to be a new tradition as the holiday shopping season goes from an omni-channel thing to an online thing. At least that's my POV. Rob: [23:03] Yeah, I am super interested in your point of view given how close you are to this. So I guess I'm gonna put you on the spot. Wow, look at me, I'm totally turning the table here, but this has been on my mind. And actually, interestingly enough, over the weekend at a party, somebody who's not in like retail, you know, he shops. That's the extent of it. He pointed out what Amazon did and thought it was really clever. So what did I hear? Like, did they spend a hundred million dollars for that? Regardless, do you think they made the money back going to your point, Jason, on selling ad space in there and kind of even if it's a break even and or they're gaining more prime members, it was a good day for Amazon? Jason: [23:42] Yeah, I am pretty confident it was a good day for Amazon. Like, one thing to remember is Amazon has a better model for monetizing eyeballs than anyone else, right? So, like, if you're Coca-Cola and you sponsor a football game, you're trying to get eyeballs and the only way you have to monetize those eyeballs is to get them to drink more Coke. Rob: [24:03] Right. Jason: [24:04] If you're Amazon, here's what you do. You get a bunch of eyeballs. You try to sell them something that you make money on. And after you do that, you sell ads to other people for more than you paid. And they try to sell something to that person, right? And so, you know, the combination of the ad revenue that Amazon generates and the top of funnel, and bottom of funnel benefit that Amazon gets, again, they're building their brand. Your friend that was just talking to you, he wasn't talking about a particular product he was shopping for. The brand he remembers is Amazon, right? And so you got that Amazon top of the funnel benefit, which is valuable and important. Amazon probably sold some stuff to people. So you got that Amazon bottom of funnel benefit. And then we know Amazon sold a bunch of ads, which is, you know, a huge, huge driver of incremental profit. So yeah, I definitely think we can call Amazon a winner there. I think when it all settles, we're also going to see that it was just a pretty good sales day for Amazon as well. Rob: [25:09] Yeah, I bet you're right. Yeah. The last point and then we can move on and by the way, welcome to episode one of the Rob Garf podcast, is the fact that I mean, knowing Amazon, those ads that you're getting are personalized in terms of them understanding who you are and even if it's a different size or a different brand or a different you know, whatever, even what they know about what's in your shopping cart, what you bought in the past. So anyways, it sounds like, as I would have suspected, you're pretty bullish about it and I am too. Jason: [25:37] So yeah, I do want to cover something just kind of fundamental. So, so we rebounded a little bit and we got bigger sales on, on Friday and Monday. Potentially we might've just pulled some sales in that were going to happen later in the month per your, your comments about not wanting to re-forecast. Did we partly pull those in by giving deeper discounts than we usually give? Like what, what did you see from a discounting standpoint and what does that say about potential profitability for Holiday? Rob: [26:03] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So we actually looked at this going into the Holiday and we went back to 2019 and I have the team look at discount rates starting in November 1st for 2019, 2021, and 2023, what we had anticipated for this year. And what we saw and actually came true is we saw discount rates over Cyber Week hover just north of where they were in 2019.

Discount rates over Cyber Week in comparison to previous years

[26:31] Don't forget, 2021, there were the lowest discount rates that we've seen because the product just wasn't there. So retailers, it was the first time they won the game of Discount Chicken. The short answer is yes. Retailers did discount the heaviest they have all year, right around 30% on average. And I think that's important. It's on average. I mean, we've all seen discounts of 40%, 50%, really creative discounting strategies. And so that definitely drove demand. I mean, going back to the consumer, while they're buying more, they're making trade-offs and they were really diligent. [27:09] They were really patient and they waited and they waited and they ultimately saw the attractive deals starting in earnest on Black Friday. They weren't even that great on the Monday, Tuesday, I'm sorry, the Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thanksgiving, Thursday until Black Friday, and then they started to buy. So they held out and they ultimately purchased those attractive deals. In terms of margin, I think we're doing okay. And the secret here is when we looked at the data, given all the inflation that happened, And actually, consumers are still, even with these deep discounts, paying more than they were in 2019. The optics are there. They're feeling like they're getting a good deal, but the reality is they're still spending more. So I think they'll be okay. And there wasn't this protracted discounting that did happen. And because they manage their inventory well, the retailers, and their discounting strategy as well, I don't think they're going to be forced with the hail Mary discounts that you often see right before the shipping cutoff date. So I think that retailers actually managed it pretty well. I give them credit too, by the way, what we saw in our data as well is retailers were a lot more transparent around their discounting strategy. [28:23] Many were offering price match guarantees. If they saw, you know, the consumer saw the price for less, and they were also much more transparent around their return policies as well. So people felt a little more comfortable buying earlier, even if the prices weren't exactly where they wanted it. So the long of it is, or the short of it, whichever way I look at it, is there were healthy discounts. Consumers took advantage of them. I'm still feeling more positive, especially than I have from last year, about margins. Scot: [28:57] Cool. You said something I want to dig into, and then I want to pivot to be in PL. You said luxury was a little soft. What do we make of that?

Retailers' management of inventory and transparency in discounting strategy

Rob: [29:06] Yeah, and like I said, it's had a run, like I haven't seen before in any one category. I mean, don't get me wrong. Consumer electronics really strong and some other categories in the pandemic home looked really strong as well. But it continued after the pandemic, both in store and online. What we saw compared again, just to put in perspective, three percent increase on Cyber Monday in the U.S., nine percent increase in Black Friday in the U.S. [29:34] There was a tick low beyond flat for luxury. What it also showed is they started to. [29:41] Discount more than they typically do. You think of luxury, they're going to hold their really price and be sensitive around preserving their brand and their margins. And we were seeing that tick up as well. I think the ultra luxury is still alive and kicking, no problem. It's more of that aspirational luxury. One area that I think is really important to point out is the resale market. More and more luxury brands are playing in the luxury market game. I'm sorry, the resale market game, because they realize people are doing it anyways, and they might as well offer that in many cases on their own website. So like Coach as an example, Canada Goose as an example, have the capability to exchange product, which then allows existing customers to likely buy something at a higher price point. And then if the product is in good enough shape, they're able to resell it and allow for aspirational shoppers to actually access that brand and buy it where they might not have been able to in the past. So yeah, I'm not overly concerned about luxury. I mean, the brands are so strong and there's so much loyalty there, but it just does show that in the aspirational space, people are trading down to a degree. [30:55] You know, they're trading down for value in the resale market. In many cases, they're trading down for vintage. It's amazing to see how many, you know, sneaker brands and specific models are hot that we all remember from our high school days. And you know, even the younger generations like to save the world a little bit as well. Scot: [31:14] Yeah. So I guess what I'm getting at is, do we think the consumer's rolling over and that's kind of the BNPL question too, because one way to read BNPL increasing is people are under financial stress. So they're stretching out payments. Another way is, you know, seeing all this data and it's always sponsored by one of the BNPL providers. So I'm never sure how to take it, but it shows that, you know, millennials and Gen Zers like, they don't like open credit. And it's weird because my kids have this perspective too. I thought it was like, I thought it was totally made up and then they're like, oh no, I, you know, I hate having like these credit cards with big limits. And I'm like, well, if you don't use it, it doesn't matter. It just makes them

Consumer behavior and the rise of Buy Now, Pay Later (BNPL)

[31:52] nervous for some reason. And do you think it's a generational thing or is it a little sign of softness on the consumer? And maybe the luxury is another indication that it feels like the consumer is rolling over a little bit or you don't see that. Rob: [32:06] Yeah, I mean, I think it is a bit generational to your point. I don't have those data's points to substantiate what you're describing. But a lot of what I learned is from my 17-year-old and 14-year-old because they're right in the smack dab of purchasing and trends and so forth. Don't worry, we have a lot more data at Salesforce to back this up, billions and billions of shoppers. But in any case, the anecdotes definitely help provide a full commentary. But we saw an outpay later over Cyber Week increase 7%. So that's healthy. It's a little slower than we've seen in past. What we're also seeing, and it started last year, is it's on lower and lower price point merchandise. So that also speaks to the adoption as well. It's not just on the big ticket items. I think if I zoom out for a moment as well, mobile wallets were really strong. Mobile wallets were really strong. We saw about a 50% increase year over year in that. Now, of course, it's a smaller base than traditional credit cards and debit cards. But still, it's showing the adoption because it's really breaking down the friction in the checkout process. But we keep a close eye on buy now, pay later, because you're right. It could be an indication, especially as consumers look to buy lower price merchandise, that it might be a softening in the market. But we're not quite there in proclaiming that. Scot: [33:25] You said a mobile wallet. That is catnip for retail geek, so I'll get out of his way. I bet he has a million questions. Jason: [33:32] Yeah, no, Scot knows I love a good mobile wallet and I'm sure everyone's already heard this,

Mobile wallets and the impact on checkout process and shopping experiences

[33:37] but I have a hypothesis that some of the popular shopping behaviors we see in Asia aren't as popular here because we don't have as good a penetration of mobile wallets and that if you have mobile wallets, it makes certain experiences like shopping on social media and things like that easier because it only requires one hand instead of three hands. So I'd be curious, do you guys think you're seeing more mobile wallet users, or do you think you're seeing more transaction from the existing users, or do you have the ability to? To see between those two? I suspect I just asked you a question you're going to now have to go do research on. Rob: [34:17] Nick Neumann We may have that based on some of the primary research we do. We don't have access to personally identifiable information, so we can't see by user. But my thesis there is it's both. There are more people adopting mobile wallets because they see the convenience and the friction that's removed. And then once that happens, they're buying more. I think you go back to the Amazon example, part of why that's probably a home run for them is because it's a lot easier for somebody to buy in that form factor than let's say Roku or other Verizon user interfaces that you don't have a wallet associated with it. I didn't go through the shopping process on the Friday NFL game, but I can only imagine it was much easier than having to do it through other types of media. So I think that, yeah, I agree by the way, with your hypothesis that, you know, embedded commerce or shopping at the edge has been a bit stunted because, the wallet piece is not there or as accessible as it is in other countries.

Buy Now, Pay Later Growing and Replacing Layaway

Jason: [35:30] Yeah. Two things I'll just throw out there on buy now, pay later. I mean, I do, I think it, it legitimately resonates with the new crop of consumers. And so I think it's growing for all the reasons that the Buy Now Pay Later people claim it's growing. But I would, there's two accelerators that are just kind of convenient in there. Holiday used to be a big time for this payment method that the youngsters on the call wouldn't have heard of called the layaway. And almost no retailer that I'm aware of has brought back layaway, like they all retired it in the last several years, largely because Buy Now Pay Later has replaced it. And so, you know, layaway is most popular around holiday. So, you know, to the extent that buy now pay later is the digital version of layaway. It kind of makes sense that you would see a spike over a holiday. Also, digital is growing much faster than brick and mortar. Buy Now, Pay Later is disproportionately online. So that, you know, is another reason you would expect Buy Now, Pay Later to spike. One thing that's a little alarming slash interesting to me is that Buy Now, Pay Later gets used for a wider range of purchases and merchandise than LayAway did. Like, LayAway tended to be big ticket items, your kid's aspirational toys, but Buy Now Pay Later gets used for food and consumables and things that economically you would argue probably don't want to be financing something that you need to rebuy every month. Rob: [36:52] Yes. Jason: [36:53] So I'll just throw that out there on Buy Now Pay Later. We are coming up on our allotted time. I do have two other pieces of news that just kind of interrupted the Turkey Five news cycle. And one of them I'm super sad about, and it's actual breaking news that happened while we were recording this show, Charlie Munger just passed away at 99. Rob: [37:13] Oh, wow. Scot: [37:14] That's terrible. Jason: [37:15] Warren Buffett's partner, and I just, I feel like, very admirable person. I've learned a lot. He and Warren Buffett, like, are super generous with sharing

Charlie Munger's Passing and Xi'an's IPO Announcement

[37:23] all this thought leadership, and I just want to say best wishes to all his family and loved ones. Seems like you had an amazing life. Rob: [37:31] Yeah, I echo your sentiment. Jason: [37:33] Yep. And then in the middle of Cyber 5, you guys teased this a couple of times talking about Xi'an. and Xi'an disclosed that they filed an IPO. So that came out yesterday. It's a confidential IPO, so we won't actually see the prospectus until probably 2024 sometime. Okay. And the theory is that it's going to be, because of their not super transparent ownership structure and their Chinese ownership, it's gonna have extra regulatory scrutiny. And so the reason you'd file a confidential IPO is so you could start talking to regulators and negotiating what you're gonna do and what you're gonna disclose. And so they're probably working through all that stuff to then do the public IPO later. But it's, I'm excited for when that gets disclosed because there's a lot of speculation about how big Shein is and how profitable or unprofitable their model has been. And we're gonna be able to do away with all that speculation and get some real certified data. Rob: [38:38] I can't wait to listen to that show when you dissect that. It will be super interesting to see where they're allocating the investment and the capital. Beyond, obviously, hiring people, but what parts of the business. Jason: [38:51] I totally agree and that's going to be a great place to leave it because we have used up our allotted time. Rob, so grateful and congratulations on being our first six-time guest. And as per usual, if you enjoyed this episode or it was useful to us in any way, the two ways you can reward us are to do a giant enterprise contract for all your marketing services with Salesforce.com or, you can leave a five-star review on iTunes for Scot and I. So, you know, those are the two paths, choose whichever one makes most financial sense to you, but appreciate it if you do one or the other. Rob: [39:29] Yeah. And if I could say too, I know we're running up against time, but I want to give a big, sincere thank you. Obviously we just came out of Thanksgiving, so I want to show my gratitude. You know, it's amazing. Anytime I'm on the show, the people that reach out to me, not only talking about the show, but how much they've learned from you. And so for you to trust me and providing my perspective and Salesforce perspective means a lot and just thanks for being such good friends. Scot: [39:56] Robert Leonard Jason said, no, but I overrode him just so you know the history. I thought, you know, Jason's like, I'm the retail geek. We don't need any Garfies in here. Rob, remind us where could people go? You guys will be updating your data. I assume, you know, this is the last time you'll be on for this year, but I'm sure you'll be publishing more data as we get deeper in the holiday. Where do people go to see that? Rob: [40:19] Jason Cosper Yeah, we have our Shopping Insights HQ on salesforce.com. We will be updating the information. We'll do a mid-season report right around the shipping cutoff window, and then we'll do an all-wrapped-up just around the beginning of NRF. So keep an eye out. Scot: [40:34] Awesome. Well, thanks, everyone, and until next time... Jason: [40:38] Happy commercing!

The Jason & Scot Show.  Podcast about e-commerce and digital shopper marketing.

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In this episode of the Jason and Scot show, our special guest is Sean D. Nelson, the CEO and founder of Lovesac. He shares his inspiring journey of starting the company as a beanbag business in his basement and growing it into a successful public company. Sean highlights the key moments of his entrepreneurial journey, including winning a million dollars on Richard Branson's reality TV show and navigating the ups and downs of the business. Sean has upcoming book and podcast, both entitled "Let Me Save You 25 Years: Mistakes, Miracles, and Lessons from the Lovesac Story." Sean emphasizes the importance of being a direct-to-consumer brand and how Lovesac has found sustained success by focusing on customer acquisition costs and offering a high-quality product. He discusses the concept of direct-to-consumer and shares his thoughts on its significance. Sean believes that having a differentiated product that provides value to customers is crucial, rather than simply relying on an online sales strategy. The conversation also touches on the topic of innovation and how Lovesac has been able to push the boundaries of what a furniture company can offer. Sean discusses their Stealth Tech innovation, which incorporates surround sound into their couches, as well as their commitment to creating products that are built to last and designed to evolve. Sean acknowledges the challenges of operating in physical retail and highlights the importance of their showrooms in reducing customer acquisition costs and providing a hands-on experience for customers. He also mentions their partnerships with Best Buy and Costco to expand their reach. The discussion expands to the future of retail and e-commerce, with Sean mentioning the transformative role of AI but cautioning that it takes time for movements to fully evolve. He emphasizes the importance of being patient and keeping an eye on developments in the industry. The conversation concludes with Sean expressing his long-term commitment to Lovesac and his desire to build something meaningful rather than focusing solely on personal gain. Listeners are invited to check out Sean's podcast and website, as well as his upcoming book, which will be released in January. Overall, this episode provides insights into the journey and philosophy behind Lovesac's success and offers valuable perspectives on entrepreneurship, innovation, and the future of retail.

Chapters 0:00:46 Introduction and Welcome to the Show 0:08:36 The Journey of Love Sack: From Highs to Lows 0:12:05 Love Sack's Traditional IPO and Company Performance 0:15:49 The Importance of Having a Differentiated Product 0:19:49 The Value and Overhype of Market Movements 0:23:18 Sactionals: Built to Last, Designed to Evolve 0:25:56 Driving a Movement for Sustainable Consumerism 0:31:36 Innovation and the Evolution of Lovesac's Product Line 0:37:07 The Strength of Lovesac's Physical Showrooms in the DTC Landscape 0:40:03 Testing and Learning: Mobile Concierge and Shop and Shop 0:41:52 AI's transformative role in the future of technology 0:50:08 Long-Term Vision vs Quick Profit

Episode 313 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded on Thursday, November 9th, 2023.

Transcript

Jason: [0:23] Welcome to the Jason and Scot show. This episode is being recorded on Thursday, November 9th, 2023. I'm your host, Jason "RetailGeek" Goldberg, and as usual, I'm here with your co-host, Scot Wingo. Scot: [0:37] Hey, Jason, and welcome back. Jason and Scot show listeners. Jason, we're very fortunate to have a entrepreneur on the show. I'm the entrepreneur side of our partnership. So I always really enjoy these.

Introduction and Welcome to the Show

[0:49] We have on the show, Sean D. Nelson. He is the CEO and founder of Lovesack. And a little birdie told me that he recently started a podcast himself. He started Love Sack as a beanbag company in his basement when he was around 18. And now it's a public company and doing relatively large revenues over 600 kind of run rate. If I look at the last quarter, I took a little glance at that. Sean, welcome to the show. Shawn : [1:13] Thank you. Thanks for having me. Great to be with you. Jason: [1:16] We are thrilled to have you, Sean. Listeners always like to kind of get the background. I'm imagining you don't have a deep background before you started Love Sack because you started it so young. But can you, like where were you in life when that brought you to start build your own product? Shawn : [1:34] Yeah, strangely, 25 years in and still running the same company I founded as my side hustle in college, which is exactly what Love Sack was. So 95, all the way back then, I made a giant not bean bag because I thought it would be funny. I literally, 10 days out of high school, got off the couch at my parents' house, having this dumb idea, like, how about a beanbag, like, me to the TV, like, the whole floor, like, huge. Drove down to the fabric store, bought some fabric, brought it home, cut it out, and then began sewing it up, broke my mom's sewing machine, neighbor finished it, took three or four weeks to try and stuff it, originally with beads, but couldn't possibly find enough, so looked around the house, I just found out my parents' camping mattresses chopped up yellow foam, you know, like those yellow slabs of foam you take camping, on a paper cutter in the basement. And eventually, I mean, foam, packing peanuts, old blankets, had this thing stuffed and started using it out and about through university, taking it camping, back of the truck, driving movies. Ended up putting it away for a couple years. And by the way, everywhere I took it, everybody wants one. Like everyone's always like, Oh my gosh, what is that thing? Where'd you get it? I was like, I'll never make another one. It was such a pain in the butt and put it away for a couple of years to go be a missionary for my church. [2:58] And came back to finish up university in 1998. And that's when I founded the company. Cause people kept bugging me to make them one. And it became my side hustle in college. And we tried to sell these things eventually beyond our friends and family and beer fest, May fest, October fest, car shows, boat shows, 10 by 10 booths, how we got started. Tried to sell them to furniture stores and they laughed at us and told us it was a dumb idea. [3:34] Eventually, at a trade show got discovered by the limited to this is like, you would not today as justice like in the malls, like little girls pink and purple fuzzy stuff for their bedrooms and, and clothing. Anyway, they ordered 12,000 little love sacks, not knowing it was me and a buddy and like a woodchipper shredding foam in the back of this furniture place. And, and that forced us to source over in Asia, which is, you know, where I had served my mission. So I speak Mandarin Chinese. There's a whole story there I won't get into it it was just kind of one thing led to another led to another week we built a factory to support that 12,000 sack order we then went out to the furniture stores who again laughed at us didn't want our $500,000. [4:19] Beanbags having completed that order wanting to keep the factory going so we finally opened our own store in a mall that didn't even want us there but finally capitulated let us in because they We had a space to fill for the holiday season, in Salt Lake City, Utah, and it just exploded. We did a good job, carpet paint, neon sign, made it look like a proper mall chain store selling giant beanbags, and it just took off. Like, it worked. People came in, flopped down, music bumpin', big screen TV, playin' movies, had a great time. There was a couch in the corner to look pretty, be part of the decor. People kept asking about the couch, And that led us to eventually, many stores later, many states later, invent Saxionals, which is our modular sofa solution, which now drives almost 90% of our sales today. So we're more a couch company by far today than we are a beanbag company. And there was a whole, listen, I'm skipping over decades of time really, but there was a whole transition where we... We went through after we invented the sectionals and solved all these problems people have with couches not only can you ship it to your house via FedEx which was hyper relevant you know for. [5:32] E-commerce and digital marketing obviously but it's watchable and changeable, and movable and it can be with you the rest of your life that that led us to a whole design philosophy that now. [5:42] Drives are innovation we think is a really cool secret sauce called design for life but. 10, 20, 50, 100, 250 locations now. We came public in 2018 on about 100 million in sales. Right around the time there was just tons of fervor in this direct consumer movement. We had farted around, we'll call it as a furniture store, selling rugs and lamps and bowls and baskets and all the obvious things along the way. And it was really when we purged all that stuff around 2015, seeing the Caspers of the world emerge and Warby Parker's and even Tesla with their showrooms. Could we adopt a more e-commerce-led model with showrooms for people to kick the tires, so to speak? And that transition is really what unlocked the lovesack that you see today and where most of our growth has come since about 2015, 16, when we made that pivot, took the company public, wrapped around that direct consumer story. So we're not a digitally native brand originally, we were actually a retailer that pivoted and became digitally led. And now we don't even operate stores in the traditional sense. We don't, we don't stock things there. You know, you don't walk out of there with your product. They're all really online sales and those showrooms are extremely powerful mechanisms for helping people make up their mind around a five or 10, $15,000. [7:06] Purchase where they want to see the thing and sit on it and, and, and see if it's everything it's cracked, it's cracked up to be online. And so we, we, we believe that we really, uh, through that arc. And then by the way, since coming public, I don't know, six, seven X, the company this year, you know, we'll, we'll be on a run rate to the analysts were a public company. So the analysts show us around, you know, it's called 700 plus in revenue and profitable, very profitable and cash generative. So we think, you know, the direct consumer game, in a lot of respects, Love Sack is one of the unlikely winners of that entire movement. Because I think at that scale, there are very, very few, what I call successful direct to consumer brands. And so we're really proud of that. And it's been a long saga, and we continue to grow and change and adapt and evolve. Jason: [8:01] It's an amazing story. And we definitely want to unpack it. But I want to go all the way back to the beginning for one second. Did that neighbor who helped finish sewing the first prototype get any equity? Shawn : [8:13] No, it was my ex-girlfriend's, mom, so about the time she exited, you know. No, it was just a friendly favor, but the truth is a lot of people helped out along the way, and a lot of people had equity or have equity in Love Sack from along the way, but look, we've been through every high, every low. Somewhere in the middle there, I skipped over it just because of brevity. Not only did I win a million dollars on TV with Richard Branson,

The Journey of Love Sack: From Highs to Lows

[8:38] his reality TV show on Fox Network back in 2005, if you can believe that, the rebel billionaire. But I also guided the company through a complete chapter 11 reorganization back in 2006, spearheaded by Venture Capital, which was painful and ugly and embarrassing and humiliating. So we've been through every kind of thing over these better than two decades. Scot: [9:01] Yeah, my deep dive question is, when you rented or bought the wood chipper, did you tell them you'd be throwing foam in there, or did they think you were clearing up a tree? Shawn : [9:09] Oh, that's so the original story. Yeah, the original woodchipper actually, you know, if you've ever used one in your backyard or, you know, you shove sticks into these things, that's basically what the original shredder was. And it was in the back room of this furniture factory already. They had used it back in the seventies to shred foam, but it had an electric motor, right? Instead of like, okay. Scot: [9:30] So it's okay to be inside here. Shawn : [9:32] Well, yeah, but I had to rehab it because it hadn't been used in like a decade or two because shredded foam had fallen out of favor in furniture. And then later to do that bigger order, we couldn't afford like a proper German, shredder, so we ended up driving out to farm country to find more of those same kind of shredders and actually found a hay grinder called a hay buster can shred 2000 pounds at a whack. Scot: [9:57] And that's a lot of power. Shawn : [9:59] Yeah, it's powered by a tractor. So we, you know, agricultural loan for tractor and hay grinder. I mean, crazy, crazy story in the beginning. Scot: [10:07] Yeah, as a family, you gotta figure out how to get it done, right? Whatever it takes. Shawn : [10:12] Whatever it takes. Scot: [10:13] I didn't know the Richard Branson thing, so that was interesting. Did he like, was he an active investor, or that's like one of those things where his people kind of take over and you never hear from him again? Shawn : [10:22] No, I mean, it was a weird situation. He had a reality TV show, 2004-5, The Rebel Billionaire, you know, whatever, 16 contestants. It was like The Apprentice, but not for apprentices, for entrepreneurs. So my runner-up on the show was Sarah Blakely of Spanx, gives you an idea. Scot: [10:38] Oh, okay, cool, neat. Shawn : [10:39] Yeah, yeah, so we became great friends, she and I, Richard and I. I ended up also being named President of Virgin Worldwide for a minute as part of the prize, believe it or not. So, worked with Richard, worked with all of his CEOs. Totally weird outcome. And, you know, but huge, huge blessing and a huge piece of story. And he was involved in sort of our VC round that ensued on the tail of that. Scot: [11:06] Okay, and then I think I saw that you guys were on Shark Tank, right? You were like one of those that you know, kind of one of the big success stories. Was that the OG Shark Tank or? Shawn : [11:16] No, we weren't on Shark Tank. A lot of people thought that. There was a Love Sack copycat that's on Shark Tank. Okay, and so they got... Scot: [11:23] I was confused because like Google says you were and then I was like, but then I couldn't find the episode. Jason: [11:28] There's a whole TikTok channel dedicated to Love Sack and Shark Tank and it's super weird. Shawn : [11:36] That's super, yeah, people get confused. Scot: [11:42] Yeah, yeah, super weird. Yeah. And then when you did your IPO, was it a traditional IPO or did you guys get caught up in the SPAC craziness? Shawn : [11:51] No, we did a traditional IPO back in 2018 and you know, our stock has been really volatile for lots of different reasons that, you know, COVID was crazy, but the company performance has been really solid. So we're just trucking.

Love Sack's Traditional IPO and Company Performance

Scot: [12:06] He, I think, was at Graham that said in the short-term it's an emotional machine, in the long-term it weighs your financials. So you got to, it's very hard, you know, I took a company public, not to the level you have. And yeah, it is, I was like, I'm not going to look at the stock, it's not going to influence me. And then suddenly everyone's like, are we making the quarter? And it's like, okay. And then suddenly it's very hard to get out of that, that short-term mindset. So congrats to you for sticking to it for so long. Shawn : [12:29] Yeah, look, I'm actually a big advocate of it, having lived inside of it now for almost six years. Scot: [12:36] Yeah, the transparency is good, you know, and I like that part of it, I think that's good for, you know, to kind of have to put out everything that you're doing, you know, it's a, the ultimate, yeah, it's like, yeah, transparency tends to be a good thing. Shawn : [12:48] I think it's the right way for companies to be governed and ran. Anyway, we could get into that if you want. Scot: [12:56] Yeah, I like the, you know, and you talked about all the other, we call them digitally native vertical brands, like the Warby's and Bonobos and all that. And yeah, a lot of them have not made it past kind of like that hundred million dollar level. And you guys have obviously, you know, six, seven X that, which is awesome. And then, you know, the big knock on Casper for a long time was as we've actually had this guy, Dan on the show, people were able to pick apart the CAC LTV and they found the average selling price was like, Jason will know these numbers, but it was like 350 and their cost to acquire a customer was 400. And they were like, you know, that obviously wasn't sustainable. So it's pretty neat that you guys have figured that out. Shawn : [13:36] Yeah. I mean, that's at the root of why obviously we've had some sustained success. And I think it's also at the root of why there are almost no other direct consumer brands making any money. End of story, full stop. And it's pretty fascinating to watch the whole thing unfold, because it really has been a movement for almost a decade. Scot: [14:01] Yeah, and I don't want to dig into the information you don't divulge publicly, so this is not a trap or anything but is it because the selection or your products, you've kind of cracked the code on Kakao TV, like what do you, and I don't want to know any methods or anything. and what do you attribute it to? Shawn : [14:18] Look, I think, let's start at the root. I think that many companies, product companies, let's start there, overlook the fact that you need a really good product. I think they pick a category and they say, oh, it could be a direct consumer brand. And the truth is, what does that even mean? Do you mean, because here's the funny thing. When I hear analysts and industry people talk about direct consumer, it has become synonymous over the last decade as it's unfolded today with e-comm. Oh, you mean you're an e-comm company and in many cases you do half of your sales through wholesale. So what does it even mean? I mean, if you want to talk about a direct consumer brand, LoveSack may be the most direct. We don't have any wholesale. I'm talking zero, and we only sell through our own channels, whether it's our website or our showrooms. And we have these partnerships, for instance, where we operate our own showrooms inside of a Best Buy or a Costco. [15:26] But you know, so this whole phrase even, direct-to-consumer, I think is really kind of silly. You mean you're a company that sells stuff online and maybe in showrooms and maybe in wholesale? So you're a company that sells stuff. So let's start with stuff. And you have to make, I think, if you want to be successful in the world, it's not a new concept. You have to have... A great product or or you have to have some other really. Hiller efficiency

The Importance of Having a Differentiated Product

[15:52] and i think what most have discovered it was a list again over this long decade of direction sumer evolution is that without a really differentiated product. You're just another company with a clever name lots of funding and if you throw lots of money at anything it's gonna grow. But you need to be differentiated. So Love Sack, you know, start with the giant beanbags. They were unique, especially in their day. There's tons of copycats out there now. [16:24] Sactionals are extremely unique. The problem is they photograph just like any other sectional sofa. Like if you took an image of Sactionals and an image of one of, you know, out of any competitor that sells couches, ours looks a lot like theirs. But the difference, the differences are myriad in terms of their washability, changeability, quality, and modularity, and many of those aspects, especially on the modular side, are patented at LoveSac. And so once you dig into it, you find that that's the number one driving factor, is we have a product that's truly differentiated, truly gives more value to the customer, and therefore, we can extract more from the market. It's really that simple, right? And that's at the root of why our CLV to CAC ratio it was so high and sustainable and cash-generative and profitable. And then we could go down all kinds of other paths. We could talk about our website, execution and stuff like that. And all of it needs to be there. Look, running a business is multifaceted and difficult. But at the root of it is that. Jason: [17:27] For sure. One of the things I sort of admire about your company is the original premise was not to have a particular go-to-market strategy. It was to have this great product that people wanted to have in their lives, right? And it feels to me like that, the whole quote unquote D to C movement, like this notion that before you solve any other problem, you're just gonna put a flag in the ground, like this is how you're gonna go to market, that just, it just seems silly because that may not be how the customer wants to acquire your product. Shawn : [18:00] Yeah, I think you're right. And I think that, so I think that whole movement that we're a part of, so I don't mean to like bag on the movement. I'm just an observer as well. Like I've been living in it, right? And we put, and I'm being really transparent, we put on those clothes very intentionally. [18:16] Because people that planted those flags were getting funded. People that planted those flags were being understood at the time. And these movements come. Right now, I could hold up a flag that said AI on it and go out there and raise a bunch of money and do something. And in the end, 99 out of 100 of those, flags are going to fall by the wayside after having tons of money thrown at them and Probably 1% of them will go on to you know be the next Googlers or who knows what right? But these movements come and go and and and I'm and this is what I'm saying You gotta be careful. I'm not bagging on the movement because these movements are useful these movements drive economic activity these movements drive innovation But they're often way overhyped, not as, I think, not as, so, you know, I mean, we could get into AI, you guys are, I'm sure, tracking it just like I am. What does that even mean? Oh, you mean like software? You mean like software that, that does stuff in an automated fashion? Like is that, is that, is it really that new? But it doesn't matter. It's a story that's being heard. It's a story that's being understood and it's where the momentum is. And so if you're able to wield, take advantage of these movements in the marketplace to your end, that's what, and that's exactly what LoveSack did. We put on those clothes, we took a concept that had been around for a long time, our concept. [19:42] And look, in the end, the thinking and the development and even like, let's say the web services and all the things available to that movement that

The Value and Overhype of Market Movements

[19:49] were spun up because of that movement, we benefited from. The money raising pricing aside, momentum, going public, whatever, all these things aside. So that's why I'm saying I think that there is value in these movements, but fundamentally, you still need to have a great business, a great product, something that's truly differentiated, because anyone with some funding can go out, buy a logo, buy a name, and look like they know what they're doing. Jason: [20:20] And yeah, for sure. And to your point, there's a, there's a funny data by going around in, in our industry this week that like over a hundred million dollars or I'm sorry, Amazon's GMV is, I'm sorry, a hundred billion dollars of Amazon's GMV is from AI. And you hear that and you're like, oh my God, that's huge. And then you find out it's product recommendation tiles that they launched in 1997. Shawn : [20:45] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jason: [20:47] Which, yeah. Yeah, so I do just want to like kind of wrap up this section, but put it in context. When you open that first store in a mall, like the mall competition for furniture stores was like Expressions Furniture, right? Which no one on this call would even remember probably. And then like by the time you really, after your IPO and really caught fire, you were competing directly against all these D to C companies that were expanding in malls. You were probably competing for leases. Shawn : [21:18] Yeah. Jason: [21:19] It's quite the, quite the journey. Now, Scot mentioned at the beginning of the show that you had recently started a podcast and I'm two part question. How the heck did you have time to start a podcast and tell us what the premise behind the podcast is and what you're talking about? Shawn : [21:36] Sure. Yeah. Just to comment first on what you pointed out, there is this whole strip in the malls now out there right now. But by the way, in these shopping malls that I was told were dead, you know, I could read the headlines of shopping malls are dead back in 2001 when I was opening my first shopping mall and I was forwarded those kind of emails by friends and family who were concerned. And here we are in 2023 and while these things change, they take decades to change. Meanwhile, they've evolved and you have all of these direct consumer players now and it It just cycles through, you know? What the players inside of these shopping centers happen to rotate, and I've watched it all evolve, and by the way, they're rotating again, because a lot of those players are not viable. Some of the best ones, biggest ones, you know? Like, concepts like Peloton, who I think is amazing as a concept, you know? They have their struggles, and so we watch these things evolve. In terms of, the podcast is relevant to this. Let me explain why. We had the chicken, I'm going to go, given the nature of what your podcast is, I'll give you a much broader picture than just, hey, why am I recording a podcast on my own and writing a book? [22:55] It works like this. We had the chicken before the egg. Sactionals being the chicken, we discovered, as we observed and had success with it, we believe are so successful because they are are built to last a lifetime and designed to evolve. Like those two attributes in our product are quite unique. And those two attributes underpin what we call our designed for life philosophy.

Sactionals: Built to Last, Designed to Evolve

[23:21] I did not found Love Sack to make products that are super sustainable, sustain hyphenable. In other words, things that actually sustain. Who's talking about that? I was just trying to survive. I made a big beanbag, people liked it. Made a couch because people were asking about couches. who has solved all these problems, observed the success, and that success was rooted in the fact that things were built to last, designed to evolve. Now that's led us to this whole philosophy that will inform our innovation on every product going forward, and it's why I'm so confident that we can continue to succeed, is because of this design philosophy that I'm sharing with you openly. Because it's one thing to say it, it's another thing to execute to it. That's the hard part. It's the execution that's the hard part, you know? Now, that said... [24:08] I'm trying to drive a movement. I believe that there are many people that are sort of aware now that we have been conned into buying too much crap. New season, new collection, the merchandising hamster wheel, new iPhone, now it's got a titanium band. Really? Everyone knows. No, it's not even hidden. It's not even like a secret. it. This whole hamster wheel called planned obsolescence that was not an accident, it's absolutely an economic strategy to lift us out of the Great Depression and onward. And it has roots all the way back to Louis XIV. What's my point? The world has just, I guess, accidentally, not so accidentally, fallen into all kinds of rhythms that are unhealthy, unsustainable, and not good for anyone, not good for the environment, not good for people, you know, we're frenetically chasing out. Now my jeans are too tight, now they're too loose, now they're too long, now they're short, now I got, now they got to show my ankles, now they got to drape over my, like, this is not an accident. This is a self-propelling machine that we have created. What's my point? I believe we can drive a movement amongst people to reject that. And I believe factionals is one of the embodiments of that. Things built to last a lifetime are designed to evolve. So that movement is actually my long-term strategy. [25:33] In the near term, I need to... One of the ways that we will reach people besides buying advertising and using it to drive a strong CLV to CAC ratio is through... I don't know, even podcasts like this is through people finding our brand, finding out about me, finding out about the company through... Whether it be me, whether it be through the goodwill of our customers, sharing this or that, the other. And so I wrote a book called Let Me Save You 25 Years. It's our clever story

Driving a Movement for Sustainable Consumerism

[25:59] at Love Sack. It's really great. I think it launches in January. I spun up a podcast called Let Me Save You 25 Years where I share my own entrepreneurial mistakes, miracles, and lessons of the Love Sack story. That's the subtitle of the book. That's the spirit of the podcast. I talk to successful people, some of the world's most successful entrepreneurs and successful people about these concepts. And it's not an interview podcast. We go really deep into some of these concepts. So my long-term goal ultimately, is to write another book that can help drive this consumer movement that I'm describing because I think if we can get a little bit of luck and get people thinking about these things and then eventually seeking out. Products that can do this, and just a lifestyle that is supported in the way that I'm describing. Buy better to buy less. Buy better stuff so you can buy less stuff. Well, obviously, LoveSack will benefit from that as a company that makes better stuff. And so, look, it's a long, long, long, long way around, but you asked the question, and I'm totally serious about that. Scot: [26:58] Yeah. So I'm gonna guess you're not a fan of fast fashion. Shawn : [27:03] No, I mean, that's obviously gonna be I made the topic of the book, you know? Scot: [27:06] And I'm not. Jason's a huge Xi'an fan, so you just really hurt his feelings. No, I'm just kidding. Jason: [27:11] Hey, I wore a Patagonia, a used Patagonia jacket in honor of tonight's show. What are you talking about? Shawn : [27:18] You are speaking my language, man. And look, it's not even about being a tree hugger. I think that people have a brain. And people, I think, are waking up to the idea after the iPhone 15, that holy crap, Apple probably should have been forced to innovate a long, long time ago. Biggest company on planet Earth because they sell us the same thing every year or two. Had we not allowed them to do that, they would have had to use their enormous treasure and enormous skill base to innovate into other categories and and change the world. Instead, we've allowed them to sell us the same thing every year. Scot: [28:06] That's an interesting ethos. Having built a company, about how many people are in your company at this point? Shawn : [28:12] Total about 1,500. It's about 400 at the headquarters and another 1,000 out in the field-ish. Scot: [28:19] Yeah, you're at that phase where there's people at the company that you've never really met before. And it's awkward because they always expect you to know their name and they all know your name. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when you get a company to that scale, how do you keep innovating? And, you know, one of the ones that I really love that you guys have done is the Stealth Tech. I think that's genius because I love AV and like having a really immersive experience. And I'll let you explain what it is, but, you know, my wife hates the big black speakers that I try to put all over the house. So I think it kind of solves like six problems in one. So A, maybe let listeners know a little bit more about what we're talking about. And then be I'd love to hear like how do you guys you know it's really hard to kind of you know ideas are easy and execution is hard on execution. It's really hard to like you know nail what you're doing and you have a lot going on and then like keep innovating. How do you how do you like get the org functional that way? Shawn : [29:16] Yeah. I mean, I think number one is you have to, you have to really want it, you know, not, not just like, Hey, I want to, I want to get, I want to get more business. I want to sell more stuff. Obviously there's that. But this ethos that I just kind of unpacked for you that, that we tripped stumbled into does the design for life ethos animates this organization. Like, it is a lot of, it is very motivating to think about, holy cow, now that we know our purpose, and it's been identified, right? Inspiring humankind to buy better so they can buy, you know, everyone's like, it was purpose, purpose, purpose, and hire some consultant, you know what I mean? But for real, if you have something that's truly unique, and it's meaningful, it's not just like words on the wall, it really is motivating, it's exciting. Scot: [30:11] And you bake baked in the products have to get better too, right? Like you, that's not well, so you have to support it. Shawn : [30:17] That's exactly right. Like, yeah, like we have to make stuff that's built to last a lifetime and design to evolve, which is really hard because if it was easy, everyone would do that. And here I am telling you openly about it. Like that's what we're going to do. And I'm not afraid to tell you because most companies won't do it because it's just freaking hard. Like it's a lot easier. Like why doesn't love sack? You know, you brought up stealth tech. So Stealth Tech is full Harman Kardon surround sound, no quality sound loss audio. Perfect audio emanating from your couch through the phone through the next layer of fabric and through the decorative layer of fabric that's washable, changeable, removable, tuned down to the color of that fabric so that the audio is perfect rear, front, center, subwoofer, invisible, beautiful, because you don't see it, it looks just like a couch, and it has all that packed in there, it's radically successful. It's been, it's now a huge piece of our business. And nobody saw that coming, because what would they expect a couch company to do next? A couch beanbag company. An end table, a coffee table, a rug, a lamp, you know, decorative accessories, get into the bedroom, who knows, right? Like the obvious stuff. Scot: [31:32] Meatballs. Shawn : [31:32] And what, yeah, right? Why did we do that? We anyway, we saw the opportunity and we also invented it. So one is,

Innovation and the Evolution of LoveSack's Product Line

[31:40] to answer your question, a lot of play. We are constantly at our innovation lab playing. So it's not just consumer-led insights, which is a big piece of what we do, but it's also a lot of inventions. You gotta have teams to invent. You gotta have engineers. You gotta have, so you gotta support that. So there's a cost structure there. And that's why LoveSack is quite profitable, but not as profitable as it could be in the future, because we are investing in innovation. And there's a lot of heads. there's a lot of engineers, there's a lot of designers doing things. Now they're not just all running around playing, they also have a very disciplined approach to executing on innovation, like launching Stealth Tech a couple years ago, and bringing that to market, which is a heavy lift because it's our invention, it's our patents, and it was not easy for this beanbag company to get into home electronics in a real way. [32:29] We've done, I think, more than 100 million in home electronic sales and making us a pretty, a pretty big player in that space, believe it or not. Already, and I don't think most people even, you know, would think that. But we're, you know, totally serious about it. So, innovation, wrapped around an inspiring path to innovation, I think is the key. Do you have an inspiring path, or are you just trying to make more stuff? Because if I wanted all those things I mentioned, like I'm over here in Asia right now, I'm in Hong Kong. And if I wanted a whole line of living room furniture with our logo on it to make myself feel good, I could have it in four weeks. The suppliers will do it for me. They've been doing it for 30 years over here for all the biggest brands you can think of, you know? And we could give them some designs and give them some ideas and let our, I mean, it's so easy to just source stuff. I'm talking about, you know, product land. Now we're talking fashion, talking furniture, talk any category you want, the same is true. But to truly invent stuff's a lot harder. And that's why I think we've had success, that's why I think we will continue to have success. Jason: [33:35] Yeah, you know, so I am interested, I mean, obviously the product has to be the lead in solving that real problem for a customer. But I do think another helpful aspect to your business is that in order for those products to be successful, like, they have to be demonstrated somehow. Like, per your point, the catalog for the StealthTech sectional looks just like the catalog for a generic sectional. And so I'm thinking you having your own showrooms was a big advantage for being able to tell the story. And ironically, I'm not sure you opened that first showroom because you recognize that problem. It sounds like you opened that first showroom because you had no other way to get distribution. Shawn : [34:21] Oh yeah, yeah. And that's why I'm not taking any claim as some kind of marketing genius. We just kind of tried to survive in the beginning. And opening a showroom was actually a reaction to being rejected by the big furniture guys, because they didn't, you know, want our product, they didn't believe in us, whatever. They couldn't see it. And so thankfully, it went that way. And by the way, they weren't showrooms, they were stores. We were a furniture store for a decade and a half. And we did all the furniture store things. And we sold merchandise, and you pulled your car around and we loaded you up, believe it or not, or we shipped to you. And it took us a long, long time to, after copycatting all those furniture stores and hiring merchandisers and window dressers and all those kinds of things from our competition to do that stuff in our stores. [35:14] To make that pivot to the direct consumer model that we operate on today that obviously looks very prescient in today's model. Now, the reason I think we've been so successful at it is because we had those 15, 20 years to get really good at operating now 250 locations across every state, almost in the United States of America, where people are fighting and bickering and hiring and firing and touching each other, whatever it takes. The point is operating physical showrooms is not something you get good at in a day or a week or a year just because that seems like the next thing to do. We have a website, now people need to see our stuff, to your point. And that's the approach I think a lot of the direct consumer brands have taken. And I don't think that they realize how hard it is to be profitable at retail and how many pitfalls there are. Where if I want to get a little better at digital marketing, which I think we're pretty good at now, but I can hire that. I can agency that, I can platform that. And so I think that the physical side of things is really underestimated. And so thankfully, our very long haphazard history has played out in our favor in that realm. And I think it's a huge strength of ours, because by the way, now that the economy's pulling back and this and that, we're 250 locations ahead of most that are just really coming around to the marriage of physical with digital and not realizing that, You know, it's not something you can just turn on and be good at. Jason: [36:44] Yeah. And I think it's you, you rightly pointed out that like the whole landscape of DTC hasn't been particularly successful. There's not a lot of wins, but the, the people that are outperforming the average, even one thing they all have in common is they all have some kind of physical footprint to, to reduce CAC, right? So they're either have their own stores or they, they are white selling through wholesale, or they're, they're in front of customers in some way,

The Strength of LoveSack's Physical Showrooms in the DTC Landscape

[37:09] other than, than Facebook ads. Yeah, I, I did. I think there's a super interesting new evolution. I thought I read about though. So like Amen stores and showrooms are super complicated. People wildly underestimate how many mistakes you can, you can make owning and operating a retail store. And now, now that you seem to have that clicking, you guys are bringing the retail store to the customer's driveways. Is that true? Like talk to us about the mobile concierge. Shawn : [37:37] Yeah, so just like we're innovating in product, we're also always innovating go to market. So whether it's mobile concierge, which is a lovesack trucks, where you can, you know, from the comfort of your home, have us pull up in the driveway and show you our products, which we've which we've dabbled in, and have tested into. And we'll see, you know, where that goes. I think that that has its own just like retail has its own complications, but also more, I think, more. I guess scalable already is Shop and Shop. So our showrooms right now in shopping malls, they're only like 800 square feet. So obviously the metrics are great, right? We're selling very big ticket items out of very tiny footprints with a small staff. There's just good metrics. And I don't hide from that. That's been a big part of our success, right? So we chose a good category in that way. We chose a terrible category in the sense is that the home category has all kinds of other issues. Jason: [38:38] Not the easiest category to deliver the product. Shawn : [38:41] Yeah, I mean, there's delivery, but there's also just the cyclical nature. You couple that with the idea that, look, we are selling you something that we are intending you to have for decades. My sectionals in my home are 16 years old, some of them, made with brand new pieces, made with Stealth Tech. That's pretty cool. On the other hand, unless we give you Stealth Tech and other reasons to come back, like, you know, you've got your satchels and you've made your investment. And so look, we deal with cover. So we're innovating on product, we're innovating on go to market, shop and shop. So these thousand square foot showrooms have been very useful for us. We have 200 square foot showrooms inside of Best Buy's or Costco's, where our people are basically checking you out and allowing you to kick the tires on the product. And then look, whether you buy there or whether you go back and buy online, we don't care. We built an agnostic platform where we just want you to be in the family. So I think these are things that have evolved over time and you've got to test and learn, whether it's mobile concierge, as you described, whether it's shop and shops. And these tests and learn activities can take years to play out and really take to scale and stuff like that. And so I think in this day and age of, hey, I'm gonna go raise a ton of money and build my company to X revenue and exit for X multiple, which is I think

Testing and Learning: Mobile Concierge and Shop and Shop

[40:05] what drives a lot of entrepreneurial activity. [40:09] That kind of mentality just doesn't have the staying power necessary. And that's why you see so many of these brands reach a point where they have to be retooled, like some of them are going through now. And look, they've made someone rich. Sometimes these founders find ways to squeeze a bunch of money out of it, or private equity tosses the hot potato to the next guy and they make a ton of money out of it. But in the end, what's left? a brand that is at scale, doesn't make money, and can't go anywhere. So my point is you gotta have the stomach to grind it out, to spend the time, to really slow cook some of these things, and to be flexible when they don't work, and shut them down and move on to the next. And so constantly innovating on go-to-market, constantly innovating on product, and really putting in the time and energy it takes to refine concepts, you know. Scot: [41:03] I know we're running up against time, and you've obviously spent a lot of time thinking about this. I know your goal is to bring this ethos out, but if you think about retail and e-commerce, what do you think the next five years hold? You talked about AI. There's a lot of this stuff that's temporal, but anything you think that you believe is going to change the way we shop and buy, either in-store or online? Shawn : [41:29] Yeah, look, I think that it will just continue to evolve, and so I think AI is real. I think it will play a transformative role, and I think everyone's trying to figure out exactly what that is, and nobody really knows yet. I wish I could just give you a clever answer, but I think I've witnessed,

AI's transformative role in the future of technology

[41:53] you know, that's What's the benefit of having a 25-year perspective is it's like I was saying about shopping malls. The mall is dead, headline from 2001. TV is dead, headline from 2008. Here we are with both of them still intact. By the way, TV advertising is still a big piece of our marketing spend. I know that's kind of mind-blowing because it seems like everybody's cut the cord or gone to this extreme. And I'm just telling you, these movements take decades. And so while it's great to be ahead of a movement, you don't, unless you are trying to drive that movement, like unless you are trying to take advantage of that AI, boom, to go raise money and wave that flag or whatever. [42:40] I've found it's okay to be a laggard. It's not always beneficial to, unless you're trying to build your concept around that and take advantage of that movement itself, let the movements evolve. So I can't give you a great prediction of exactly what's going to happen. AI is important. But how, where the winners will actually be and what the effects will actually be, I think it's way too early to tell. But I do think it's important to keep your finger and keep watching and eventually, you know, to find the connection and lean into that to affect your business. You have to be a little bit patient, I think. Jason: [43:27] Yeah, well, certainly 25 years in, I think you've earned your patience creds, by the way. Shawn : [43:35] Maybe too much. Jason: [43:37] Yeah, I mean, there's pros and cons to both. Urgency can be useful in certain circumstances, but short time horizons come with a lot of problems, as you have rightly pointed out. That did lead me to one sort of thought question. And you, you referenced some of your, your CAC economics and side note, we've, we've one of the, our favorite guests on the show is this professor Dan McCarthy. Who's, who's a huge advocate for cohort analysis and customer lifetime value based businesses. And so he would be thrilled that you're on, because I know you guys disclose some of your cohort metrics in, in your financial statements, which he loves. And to me, you're in a really interesting category to do that because although your product has invented a reason for customers to come back and you've sort of turned a product into a system, it's not like a fast cycle, right? Like, and so like when you're thinking about like a time horizon for LTV, and you guys have a very good return on your CAC, but compared to most companies, your CAC still is really high, right? Like, you sell a lot of product to compensate for that. Shawn : [44:57] Yeah. Jason: [44:58] So how, like, you know, you're spending five or six hundred bucks to acquire a customer and then you're earning thousands of dollars on each of those customers. Like, was it difficult to sort of have the financial discipline to have a long enough time horizon to see those sorts of high CLVs come back for that initial customer acquisition? Shawn : [45:23] Yeah, I mean, you could call it discipline. In our case, again, it was just survival, being really transparent. You know, we were just trying to find a way to make this business work, and we weren't profitable right out of the gate. It took us many years to get better at retail, to get better at e-commerce, to have a shopping cart experience that was commensurate to the product, because that's really hard with our product. Our product is really weird and complicated. And so that's something that's overlooked with Lovesack. And I think a lot of our copycats and competitors are realizing that. You can't just use a Shopify checkout if you're going to sell something as dynamic as, let's say, factionals where, you know, you can buy a bunch of these and a bunch of those and combine them in a million different ways. How do you, how do you shopping cart that? How do you Amazon that, you know? And so, and so these are superpowers that we've developed over a long time and thankfully given it enough time to become profitable. So to answer your question about, you know, patience, I think part of it is just been our lot in life to, to be, to have patience forced on us. But secondly, real discipline around. [46:32] Our CLV and CAC metrics. So we are, we are, and have been for a long time, carefully monitoring them, tracking them, constantly innovating and refining on the marketing side, these things that I mentioned, whether TV, you know, over the top, linear, nonlinear, digital marketing with its 500 heads, you know, like I'm talking about species of digital marketing, it's such a big word, right? I have to be constantly and tirelessly refined and risk taken and stuff tried and stuff failed and all rolled it and it all rolls up into that CLV to CAC ratio that you can hope you can keep moving and then couple that with innovation so that people can come back and buy more. And so thankfully, look, we chose a category with a high ticket and that drives the lion's share. That first purchase drives the lion's share of that CLV to CAC relationship. But our long-term point of view now is not only to find other ways that we can do more of that, maybe even in other categories and adjacencies. [47:32] But also give like StealthTack, give people a reason to come back and add on. And then by the way, when they do come back, then they face the consequence of, well, what do I do with some of these things that I need to, let's say, I get StealthTack and I got to swap out two of my sides. Well, okay, the obvious answer is I don't want to throw those in the trash. We don't want them throwing them in the trash and they may not need another couch in another room. So it's leading us to services, trade in, trade up, recycle, you know, all kinds of things that will again, give us more reasons to reach out and touch that customer. And so I think that if you relentlessly pursue. [48:13] A good concept with good intentions being driven by good philosophy and purpose like I've described, it's been my experience that the universe kind of unfolds for you, but it doesn't do it overnight. And you can't just have a, at least in my experience, you can't just have a master plan and be like, we're gonna do this and then that and that. You have to iterate to it. You have to observe, you have to live some, like when we launched Stealth Tech, we just, you know, it's easy now to look back in hindsight and be like, well, of course people are gonna want to or trade in their sides or do whatever. But some of those things aren't always so apparent. And you need to plunge yourself into the pool, see what comes of it, and then react to that. And some of those reactions can take years to unfold. Like some of these services that I just described and whatnot, they'll take us years to manifest. [48:59] But the nice thing is, the core business can generate profits that will carry us to that and we'll invest some of those profits in that innovation that I'm describing. But it's like, it's just relentless, man. It's tiring. It's like you have to have the stomach to go the distance. And that's where the time horizon, look, I'm a big advocate of it. Culturally, you know, like when my whole organization knows, like the theme of our manager fest a month ago, this is where we all get together once a year, was 25 and 25 more. And I'm not kidding. Like my personal point of view, if I'm allowed to be here as a public company CEO, if I do good enough to stay in the seat, which is inherent, and that's why I love the structure. It forces you to be awesome, you know? [49:45] If I can do that, but the fact that my organization knows that I'm in for another 25, you know how grounding that is and stabilizing that is, as opposed to, man, when's Sean's gonna sell his stock and bail and go start his next company? That's what I'm supposed to do, isn't it? That's how I become a bazillionaire, isn't it? I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in building something. And I think that that, I don't know, desire is actually kind of rare these days.

Long-Term Vision vs Quick Profit

[50:14] I think everyone just wants to be a bazillionaire as fast as they can. Jason: [50:17] Oh, for sure. Yeah. Everybody's assuming you're going to cash out and invest in your first rocket. Shawn : [50:24] Yeah, whatever. And I think it's sad. Look, I'd love to make a ton of money, whatever. That's all great. But whatever happened to the ambition of let's build something awesome, no matter how long it takes. And that's where I'm at. Jason: [50:41] Yeah. Well, Sean, it's been an amazing run so far. This is going to be a great spot to leave it because we have used up our allotted time, but I know listeners are going to appreciate you saving them the first 25 years, and we're going to be super excited to watch what happens in the next 25. Shawn : [50:57] Thank you. Thank you. Scot: [50:59] We really appreciate it, Sean. I know you're in Hong Kong, you're in the middle of your day there, and we appreciate you coming on the show. If folks want to check out your podcast, where would you point them to? Shawn : [51:09] Yeah, wherever you love listening to podcasts, Let Me Save You 25 Years is the name. LetMeSaveYou25Years.com. You can find me on social media, Sean of Lovesack. I'm all over that and love to be connected, slide into my DMs. I mean, I love talking to customers, friends, peers, being very accessible and looking forward to building the movement. Of course, Lovesack.com. We're easy to find. Scot: [51:33] Trey Lockerbie 41 Yep. And the book's coming out in January and I assume it's going to be in all the usual places. Shawn : [51:37] Sean O'Toole 41 All the usual places. Yeah. Let Awesome. Jason: [51:45] Thanks again and until next time, happy commercing!

 

EP313 - Holiday 2023 Preview with Rob Garf of Salesforce

Episode 313 is preview of Holiday 2023 with Rob Garf, Vice President and General Manager, Retail at Salesforce. This is Robs' fifth time on the show, having previously been on episodes 110, 248, 282, and 299.

It's happened again. Your Halloween decorations have come down (or at least your pumpkin is not in good shape), you survived Amazon Prime Big Deal Days, and now you're getting ready to ditch your in-laws and enjoy one of the most exciting retail weeks of the year. Yes, it's time for Holiday 2023!

This year, we've decided to do things a bit different by previewing the holiday in advance of Turkey 5. Rob Garf has kindly joined to walk us through Salesforce's e-commerce forecast for November and December, and we compare it to all the other forecasts out there (NRF, Deloitte, Bain, US Dept of Commerce). In addition to the top line forecasts, we touch on retail versus e-commerce, changing shape of the holiday, discounting climate, inventory and supply chain impacts, top performing categories, the economy, and the impact of rapidly growing Chinese brands (Temu, Shein, TikTok).

Throughout this episode make liberal use of real-time data from Salesforce Shopping Insights HQ, which tracks how 1.5+ billion consumers are shaping shopping trends. You can see a real-time holiday dashboard, powered by Tableau so you can interact with the data yourself on the Salesforce Holiday Insights page.

Episode 313 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded on Wednesday November 8th, 2023.

http://jasonandscot.com

Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, Chief Commerce Strategy Officer at Publicis, and Scot Wingo, CEO of GetSpiffy and Co-Founder of ChannelAdvisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing.

Transcript

Jason: [0:23] Welcome to the Jason and Scot show this is episode 313 being recorded on Wednesday November 8th 2023 I'm your host Jason retailgeek Goldberg and as usual I'm here with your co-host Scot Wingo. Scot: [0:39] Hey Jason and welcome back Jason and Scot show listeners Jason is 3:13 the lucky number I had the 13 is kind of on there so I think we'll count it. Jason: [0:48] It's a lot of threes. Scot: [0:50] Yeah yeah I think it's a primal have to get one of our research analyst to work on the okay so we are recording this in early November as Jason said so at that critical part of the retail calendar all the plans are laid the discounts are on the table Cyber Monday. Thanksgiving Black Friday everything's teed up and everyone's waiting in anticipation of what holiday is going to bring us this year. And we know longtime listeners will know that our holiday turkey five coverage with a lot of sprinkling of data is second to none in the industry and this year we're going to take it up a notch in past years we've had our friend of the show Rob Garf VP and GM for retail at Salesforce on after the turkey 5 give us a real-time view of what they saw and for those of you that have been with us very long time this is her Jason's mom primarily those were episodes 110 249 282 and 299 man that's quite a track record this year we are going to take it up and have a delicious rub Garf before and after holiday sandwich it's kind of like that turkey sandwich but we're going to kind of sample it here before we even even have Thanksgiving. Rob before I before I go on welcome back for the fifth and I think record time on the show. Rob: [2:11] Wow I love it this is I will have to call the Guinness book up and make sure we get this knocked in memory on this is fantastic it's always good to be here and even better Scott and Jason and first of all thank you for having me on doing a little bit of a preview because as you mention were normally crawling through the data talking about the holiday weekend and seeing where everything lands after the critical time period and it's fun to take a little bit of a sneak preview and look at what we're anticipating and what we're seeing going into as you mentioned one of the most critical times of the year. Jason: [2:45] I think you're exactly right Rob I don't know why we didn't think of this sooner I feel like they should have always been part of our holiday tradition. And I do feel like we're getting all of the Rob protein with none of the nasty carbs so that's like a. Particularly healthy Thanksgiving treat but Rob before we jump into all of the good data remind listeners what the heck it is you do for Salesforce and how you get all this juicy data. Rob: [3:13] Yeah that's awesome let's by the way the listeners decide you know how. Advantageous this is after the fact I hope it is and again we'll do our best so yeah and I've been I always thinking about it thinking into this conversation now at Salesforce for over 7 years but I came. To the CRM Leader by way of demand where and if you remember demandware now Commerce Cloud was the leader and the cloud space and we instrumented the platform early on to get access to everything that flows. Through our Cloud so you think about all the Taps all the clicks all the swipes. [3:48] Now we don't have any access to personally identifiable information but we bubble that up and it becomes really The Benchmark for what's happening in digital and over the years we've included. Things from marketing and Service as well to look at a more complete buyers Journey. [4:08] And it's been really fun each quarter we release our shopping index which is available on salesforce.com built on Tableau and it's interactive so you can slice and dice it by vertical and by geography and it really helps. Retailers gauge how they're doing vis-à-vis their peer set which of course is extremely important anytime of the year but certainly even more important during. The holiday week now I think there's one thing that I sometimes forget to say so I want to make sure right cover it now which is. Our index and by virtue of that our benchmarks are from a outside in perspective so they are a look at the entire industry, not just Salesforce data we've modeled this over the last 10 years since its Inception so it's really intended to look at. The overall industry and benchmarking how peers are doing rather than speaking to anything that Salesforce is doing so that's my quick infomercial but hopefully more than anything just a little bit of credibility as to where we get the data, what we do with it and most importantly the conversations were able to have similar to what we're doing here. Jason: [5:19] God so that that sounds perfect. I do want just a couple clarifying questions before we jump into the actual data because I know we're going to talk about holiday like what is your official definition of holiday what what dates are you looking at. Rob: [5:38] Yeah thanks for asking that's always an important question so we've defined it over the years as the complete November and December so that's our holiday our peak season look. And we look at in particular for again the holiday weekend I know you call it cyber five or thirty five, we have cyber week which starts the Tuesday before, American Thanksgiving and works its way through Cyber Monday it's just something we started from the beginning and 4y like to like, your rear comparisons we've kept that intact so in on referencing cyber week or cyber five it's really looking at those, those seven days now of course the definition by some has been elongated and I hope we'll get into that in terms of when does the official real demand start but to answer your question straight on Jason it's for us at Salesforce November December. Jason: [6:27] Got it and so for historical purposes you've always been located in November December and then you're predominantly or exclusively focused on digital sales so you're you're reporting on what actually happened and forecasting what you think is going to happen in terms of e-commerce sales but unless I had this wrong you guys don't put a flag in the ground on on what you think is going to happen in brick-and-mortar is that true. Rob: [6:50] That is accurate now we do kind of go on the fringes a little bit because the bleeding between online or the blurring I should say between online and offline so we do have, data on buy online pick up at store we do have data on returns as well which is by virtue of, definition multi-channel omni-channel type of process but we don't put a stake in the ground because we just don't have the intrinsic data to be able to bubble that up and provide on the actuals. Jason: [7:20] Sure and then one other fun fact you reference the shopping index and you always have like the quarterly recap on there but I think. For sure during holidays and I think you're going to tell me your round you actually have a real-time dashboard up there so it's kind of a fun thing during the individual days of cyber week to kind of pop in and see see what's going on after your family Thanksgiving dinner to see if you're still going to have a retail job when this is all over. Rob: [7:50] Yeah yeah we do exactly so during particularly cyber week each morning the team is getting up super early as you can imagine and work around through the data and we're updating in real-time the data from the previous day and so for any retailer who is looking for the latest and greatest certainly by I would say 10:00 eastern time at the latest you will get that and see that up there we do have many customers who do use that in there Roundtable boardroom discussions each day to understand how they're doing it repairing it and more than anything Jason truth be told we need to get it up that early because our boss this guy named Marc benioff is typically texting us saying where's the data because I want to tweet it so yeah as much of a motivator as anything else. Scot: [8:40] Always fun when you get the text from The Seer. Jason: [8:44] Slack's slacks the he sends wax not to. Scot: [8:48] A slacks yes sorry I was off I was off brand for a second yeah he Einsteins it to his his Einstein slacks you. You mentioned one follow-up on that you mentioned American Thanksgiving that prompted me to ask this is largely we're talking about the u.s. here primarily we're not going to this is an international I'm sure you can go International but, we're doing more us right. Rob: [9:12] Yeah I'm prepared to do whatever I thought we'd probably borrow a bit more into us but we do have Global numbers but yeah. Scot: [9:20] Okay we have time Jason's obsessed with these Chinese companies I'm sure he'll ask you some questions so. Rob: [9:25] That's fair that wouldn't. Scot: [9:26] Yeah he gets all his clothes from she in any way. So before we dive into the topic du jour which is this year's holiday 2023 maybe recap for listeners kind of that you know. I know we had you on but the dust has settled and I'm sure you're going back and looking at it now with holiday 22 what were some of the bullet items that you kind of you you're thinking about as we go into 23. Rob: [9:56] Scot you don't think the listeners have totally taken This to Memory what we talked about last November 29 come on. You're probably right that's fine yeah I get it not all of us live and breathe this but yeah let's bring us back and you know actually if I could just for a minute, to put 2022 in context you need to think a little bit about 2021 and let me just spend a minute there and then I'll fast forward to 22 which is if you remember some of us don't want to in 2021 it was truly one of the first times that demand, actually got pulled forward in the holiday season and the reason was. The first mile delivery issues were stuck if you remember so many products were stuck in the port in the US of a Lala. The containers if they even got to the port or having a difficult time getting off the ship in into the domestic supply chain and people saw a headline after headline when I say people like consumers by or shoppers and they realized if they didn't buy early in the season. [11:03] They might not get the product that they actually want because in the past they would just have a waiting game and wait for the last and final deal and so. Demand got pulled earlier in the season and oh by the way retailers didn't have to Discount as steep as they normally do so going into 2020 retailers thought. [11:26] All of a sudden there would be this magical shift to Consumers buying earlier in the year and you know what that just didn't happen, there was actually a really good point of why that didn't happen when you look at the first two weeks of November we saw some of the lowest discounting rates that we typically see during the holiday season and because of these lackluster deals. People really didn't buy anything they waited and they again went back to their normal buying Behavior. One other by-product out of that is those that did by early. [12:04] We saw that they actually return the product during cyber week cyber week last year 2022 at some of the highest. Return rates during that week of the entire season people were doing their own price adjustments if they bought the product earlier in the year and realize they could have gotten a better price so there's like. I don't know how you calculate a triple or quadruple whammy on the bottom line that retailer saw. Because they were hoping to chase the deals earlier or wait I should say for the deals into the season and consumers just didn't bite. Overall and then I'll stop talking for a second here is what we saw. For let's just take cyber week as an example in the u.s. we saw a nine percent year-over-year growth growth online and globally we saw a 2% growth so us was really buoying up the global number there but a lot of that Sales Online happened right before cyber week and through the Thanksgiving holiday. Scot: [13:07] Got it it's kind of coming back to me I Remember You coining The Phrase discount chicken I remembered that is that right remember. Rob: [13:15] Yeah yeah yeah totally and thank you so discount chicken you know for the first time that we saw, retailers won the game of discount chicken last year I'm sorry in 2021 they tried to win again in 2022 but it just didn't happen consumers are really wise the real patient and now especially as they're seeing headwinds in their economic future there's definitely searching out for better and best deals. Scot: [13:46] Yeah this this kind of goes back to our data question it just occurred to me as we were talking about this obviously the macroeconomic is different now does that factor into your when you swirl all this together and you guys put together a funk forecast is that is that an input. Rob: [14:00] Absolutely yeah for sure and another piece that we look at very closely because it's driven so much of the growth over the last two years is inflation as well and so when you look at the last two years much of the online and growth is from increased prices not increased demand so people are just not getting as much from their dollar because of those increases we're starting to see that settle down the last couple quarters which is good news we're not quite seeing in Europe by the way but here in the US and so we're hoping, some of the growth will come from We're anticipating I should say some of the growth this holiday season coming from actual increase demand. Jason: [14:41] God so I want to I want to jump in the big reveal but a quick quiz first if you don't mind so last year us e-commerce growth nine percent G20 21 was also an incredibly abnormal year do you remember what the actual number you guys got for 2021 was. Rob: [15:00] For cyber week that's a. Jason: [15:02] No or sorry for holiday if you don't have it it's fine. Rob: [15:05] Overall holiday for 2021 was nine percent but that's Global so I'd have to go back to see what it was with the US. Jason: [15:13] No problem but so last year in the u.s. nine percent growth which was outlier for because Global growth was quite a bit softer. And so now here we are getting ready for Holiday 23 and what what do you think's going to happen when how much stuff we're going to sell online in November and December of twenty three in the US. Rob: [15:35] Yeah, so we're anticipating here in the US basically flat online growth and anybody I'm talking to is candidly quite okay with that and let me tell you why they're not overly bullish about significant growth online this year. For two major factors one is, we actually looked at the kegger over the last couple of years going back to 2019 and if things play out the way we anticipate we're still looking at for the holiday season compound annual growth of somewhere between 20 and 25% and so we're really where we are better than where we've been in 2019 year-over-year so we're you know we've been looking at these data points for quite some time during the holiday season if we're going to do 10 to 12 to 13 percent year-over-year growth online we're feeling really good and we've seen the average over the last couple of years come out well over that so there's a baseline that we're still needing to consider as we think about growth the second factor is. [16:50] The store. And we can't forget about even though our data doesn't explicitly account for that what we've seen in our data is that people are still going online very, aggressively meaning traffic quarter-over-quarter year-over-year is still really strong however what we're finding is people are then doing what they've naturally done for a long time which is in many cases then go into the store to actually make the purchase and so it doesn't necessarily tell when you look at flat growth year over year for the holiday season the entire story we're still feeling really good about it what helps us by the way one more caveat that I'll put in there and I should have mentioned it's got just a moment ago when you asked how we get to the numbers one of the key influences, is what does it October look like and particularly prime or we should I was about to say Prime day but the prime big deal days and so what we've seen when it first came out a nice halo effect. And we still see a halo effect certainly during the dog days of summer in July since the Inception of prime day. What was that 56 years ago but we although we saw bumps in the early part when it. First was established in October there wasn't a significant halo effect that happened during Pride a meaning those. [18:18] Not named Amazon during the October event we saw nice traffic we though saw really low discount rates once again so people were being patient they're biding their time and so we are seeing some nice add to cart rates as well so we saw people were poking around they were doing their research they were starting to. Think about what their holiday gifting this look like but they were waiting and so that's my long way of saying we're anticipating a fairly moderate holiday but we're not at all discouraged by what we. Jason: [18:54] Totally fair and so and I want to put your forecast in a little bit of context but before I do you kind of open the door on this whole October and shape of holiday thing like hey. Super useful to have historical consistency so I'm glad you guys report. The same time period every year right like I'm by no means proposing that everyone should change periods but it is interesting there's there's a lot more promotional activity. Happening in October than was true 10 years ago right and in very specific ways you convoluted 22 years ago, Prime day was cancelled in summer and happened in October and then they move prom date back to Summer but they added this second prime day and put a lot more marketing behind it this year than last year so and every other retailer on the planet. Counter programs against that that holiday and so there's been a. An increasing amount of pressure to pull sales in in October and then on the flip side a lot of people feel like holiday doesn't really end. And told mid to late January and there's a variety of reasons for that but one very particular one heck of a lot of gift cards get sold and gifted during holidays and they get redeemed. [20:18] Predominantly in January and so I guess I'm just kind of curious I'm not sure you would have necessary data behind this but like it does feel like holiday is flattening out and I know you guys pay particular attention to cyber week which you know is still a huge outlier and obviously we see way more sales on Cyber week than a traditional holiday week but. As a. Relation to the total holiday period it does feel like that spike is starting to flatten out a little bit like do you see holiday getting kind of stretched and flattened. Rob: [20:53] Yeah I love the question in this I feel like we could look back you know in a year or 25 years and do a whole. [21:03] I don't know extensive research project around how, people in mindset and shopping has evolved because it has and of course the pandemic had a big accelerator to that what we've seen in our data Jason is there has been a flattening out throughout cyber week meeting the big Spikes have typically been Black Friday and Cyber Monday and those still remain the two largest online days of the entire year but we are seeing a flattening out throughout the entire week but we haven't seen a lot of the sales, when it's all said and done pulled into October we do see a little bit of a blip in and around, the big deal days and we actually to your point other retailers have preempted the sales and we saw that in July as well meaning doing sales events the week before and it does draw them up, some traffic but we haven't seen a large portion being pulled into that time period what I will also say again lackluster discounts played a big role we're anticipating, comparing big deal days to cyber week cyber week we'll see about a 40% higher discounting rate. [22:28] Then what we witnessed just a couple of weeks ago in October you are totally right by the way that. [22:37] The holiday season does definitely extend through December and into January that's why most every retailer has there. You know fiscal year ending in January so they can really reconcile and get out from under what happened in the holiday not just gift cards but all of the returns and exchanges that invariably happen as well but at the end of the day just put a nice little underscore here is in 2020 and 2021 we did see a bit of pulling forward into October a couple of percentage points of sales but we're forecasting that 25% of all holiday sales will happen again as we Define it the 7-Day is of cyber week. Jason: [23:27] Interesting very cool okay so before we dive into some more granular topics I do you want to put the 9% in context and some listeners will be familiar with Nate silver and his poll of polls in the the kind of boring, boring a political forecast but the way more interesting March Madness forecast so I like to fancy myself as the Nate silver of e-commerce and so I do try to watch all of this data and huge caveat, nobody's data is Apples to Apples right so it's not really a matter of though this number doesn't match up to this number. Everyone has a slightly different definition of what e-commerce means everyone has a slightly different set of dates that they're looking at and they have different methodologies right so your methodology I feel like you get perfectly accurate data from a slice of the market right like there's there's no like. Human. [24:30] Are introducing your data because it's coming right from the systems and that the challenge for you guys is to take your slice and extend that to the the entire world of retail. The and I feel like you guys do that really well. So another data source that of course people are sick of me talking about is the US Department of Commerce which are these like surveys that they force retailers to fill out and. There's. Entirely different challenges and flaws in their survey methodology and how they defined e-commerce but just to kind of put things in perspective. I'm going to talk about they give us both brick-and-mortar and e-commerce data and so I pulled right before a show I pulled their data for the historical averages of November and December and so for the 27 years before covid-19. November and December sales grew, 3.8 5% per year so that's brick-and-mortar that's not related to the number you gave it all so average retail growth in that States of America / the US Department of Commerce in November and December three point eight five percent so and then I remind people the three covid years 20 21 and 22. [25:45] Were the greatest three years in the history of retail right because we didn't let anyone spend any money on travel and we mailed 10 trillion dollars to every man woman and child in America, to spend and so via the US Department of Commerce data 2020 Drew 9.2 percent. [26:04] 20:21 Drew 12.5 percent in 2020 to grew 5.4% so three straight years of, way over the historical average growth right and then using that same methodology they US Department of Commerce reports internet sales I'm way more skeptical of their internet sales because of the methodology in the way they Define it but just to put it in perspective. [26:32] For the 27 years before covid they have e-commerce growing eleven point two five percent a year and so then 2020 when everyone was locked in the house and not going to retail we had this monster year e-commerce group 35% in November and December from their data and then the following year because there was sort of a rebound and a return into two brick-and-mortar sales e-commerce sales were actually lower than the industry average so 2021 they had sales at 10.5% so a little bit off of the historical average and then last year they were the softest of all they were seven point six eight percent which is the slowest e-commerce growth in Holiday in the last 30 years so that's just kind of an interesting context right so the orders of magnitude are all right you had nine percent growth last year they had seven point six percent growth they don't forecast of course and so then I start looking at the forecast and a big forecast that comes out every year we're all friends of the NRF here and there in RF members the NRF just did their holiday forecast their forecasting brick-and-mortar growing three to four percent so. [27:45] Pretty much in line with that historical average that's a deceleration from last year which was 5.4% and they're forecasting internet sales of 7.9 percent so they're kind of perfectly splitting the difference between the US Department of Commerce and Salesforce for whatever that's worth by pretty pretty broad range and so that just kind of passes my quick sanity check Deloitte also does a forecast now deloitte's forecast is a different time range they consider holiday November to January and they're forecasting brick-and-mortar 3.5 to four point six percent so a little more optimistic and they're forecasting e-commerce at ten point three to twelve point eight percent so again a little more optimistic and then Bain did a forecast this year and they have three percent brick-and-mortar so I just wanted to throw that out there that most people are expecting this kind of three to four percent brick-and-mortar growth and this kind of we'll call it eight to eleven percent e-commerce growth. Rob: [28:51] Yeah and I would say given what you just talked about. Others a bit more bullish on the e-commerce growth than we are but I think directionally both brick and mortar and e-commerce are telling a very similar story which is e-commerce is still alive and kicking but it now has to be looked at in the context of brick and mortar and I think there's a lot of factors in that that actually will make the reporting moving forward even more difficult it is making it difficult and Jason you and I have talked about this before it's just the attribution models because it's not just about last-click anymore especially as people might you know in many cases go online and then go into the store where's that last click and how is that I'd be factored so everything from. [29:38] What we had anticipated in seeing around, you know 60% of digital sales now influenced by the physical store because the associate is driving demand through, customer service or client telling or social media or they're fulfilling Demand with being able to, you know pick pack and ship and online order. Or what's happening in digital as well in terms of people buying online and then picking up in or around the store so I think what is super interesting. In addition to what you said is how these metrics might evolve over time because it will depend a lot on, by retailer who's getting the credit and I know that's something that's been talked about for quite some time but literally how to is it how is it being accounted for and what does that do to how their reporting the numbers. Jason: [30:33] Yeah couldn't agree more and just 11 sort of example to illustrate that 11 kind of category that sold almost no meaningful volume online before the pandemic was grocery right second biggest category of consumer spending but none of it was online before the pandemic now depending on how you count ten to twelve percent of its online and guess what it all gets attributed as store sales right because it all it's all bananas that are getting delivered from a store and you know so 100% of instacart sales look like store sales to the retailer. And so it like I agree with you it's just it's just getting more and more convoluted. Rob: [31:14] Yeah well it's an interesting point around grocery you know our data showed in 2020 and most of 2021 we saw Triple digit growth year over year because of what you just talked about you just wouldn't ordinarily or historically by groceries online what drove a lot of that and what I think will drive Behavior moving forward is in 2020 we saw a 40-percent increase of net new. Digital Shoppers so these are people that hang out online but they wouldn't click the buy button and so a lot of those people now want to go back into the store but they're using digital they're using their phone in particular to really be that connective tissue. Scot: [31:55] What's a continue to peel the onion here you hit on this a little bit but tell us more about what you think is coming up in the 2023 cyber week for example if I recall last year Cyber Monday was the biggest e-commerce Day Ever set, is that did you guys agree with that or what's a my misremembering. Rob: [32:14] Yeah yeah so we actually have seen Black Friday actually. Bust up to the largest I know that's kind of hard to how others have looked at it but they're both really strong and we anticipate that being the case again again though we are seeing a bit of smoothing out of demand throughout the seven days. [32:36] Particularly on phones and I guess that's not a big butt when we weren't traveling we saw the Resurgence of you know iPads and tablets and actual regular computers especially when you get nice groovy one Scott like you did just recently but anyways I am getting distracted here by your awesome new computer but. What we are now seeing though is I move back to mobile and what we saw also during Thanksgiving a really strong traffic particularly local times between 4:00 and 8:00 if you think about it that's essentially when people are finishing their Thanksgiving Neil and they need a little break there sitting on their couch and they pull out their phone and so we're seeing a lot of traffic. Via Mobile and social as well by the way we are anticipating and we predicted this going back in June that we're going to see. Traffic via social be at a 10 times higher rate. Than traditional marketing so there's a lot of budget being pushed towards that media and we're seeing. [33:49] A lot of success there now they're still a bit of a gap in terms of conversion rate through that channel but again if you connect the dots mobile. And social happening over cyber week in particular on Thanksgiving it's going to be really strong and we're seeing again retailers lean into that. Scot: [34:10] So Black Friday was bigger growth last year or bigger absolute dollars or both. Rob: [34:18] For us it was biggest absolute dollars the growth was essentially spot-on for both Cyber Monday and Black Friday. Scot: [34:28] Jason and I'm assuming that did other people say it was Cyber Monday or it was at all. Jason: [34:32] Yeah they're they're different different folks had that different Peak yeah so but. Scot: [34:39] Controversy in e-commerce I love it. Jason: [34:41] Yeah controversy and they're getting closer together like they're worth in the early days. E-commerce Cyber Monday was a giant Tower and no one had internet access on Black Friday like that that could really is no longer the case. Scot: [34:55] Yeah well rip Cyber Monday cool I don't have any follow-ups Jason's Europe. Jason: [35:03] Awesome so. I want to jump into one of the other topics you introduced a little earlier so far we've been mostly topping up talking about Top Line which is a kind of easy way to think about this and it's you know it's a it's a kind of easy way to get your brain around it, at the end of the day retailers care a lot more about bottom line and a huge impact on holiday bottom of line is how aggressively in deeply folks have to Discount in order to achieve those sales so, are you guys like what do you forecast I don't know if you have a formal forecast for discounts but what what should people expect from discounting this year versus last year and what what are the trends there. Rob: [35:46] Yeah yeah yeah this is good because I missed a point before that I want to make as a relates to Discount and so this will give me a good opportunity to bring that up but still has to go right at that Jason we're forecasting on average a. Thirty percent discount rate throughout cyber week and again to put that in perspective it was 20% here in the US during the October event for. Prime big deal days again we look at the entire industry not just Amazon as a relates to that and so we're seeing a much more aggressive, discount rate now it's going to differ obviously by different segments you're not seeing as high in luxury as an example we do anticipate for tour toys and a consumer electronics which have been a bit of a softer category over the last 12 months again especially because because of the high Baseline they had because of the growth over 2020 2021 but we're also seeing and this goes back to the pulling forward of demand. Is more and more retailers are providing. [36:55] Black Friday deals throughout the course of November and. What's different in the past was it was fairly opaque in terms of we're giving you deals but we're not really sure those are going to be the best deals right and though we're seeing now much more transparency there's one major retailer that I'm sure you can guess who's doing Black Friday deals throughout the course of November and they are guaranteeing price matches. If for some reason they do go lower and they are also offering buy now pay later so you can commit to getting the product so you don't miss out on it but you can then pay over time and so what really came to life for me in this topic was we were doing a round table. [37:47] In Toronto in June and one of the attendees and she talked about this again at dreamforce in. September so I feel comfortable talking about it is a digital executive from Desi mm which is a cool health and cosmetics and Beauty brand that also has two other brands one called the ordinary and they have something that they've been doing for quite some time calling it, slow vember and their whole point is don't cause any urgency but rather. Make it a more relaxed buying experience and their point is throughout the course of all of November we're going to provide the same exact discount no matter when. And if you buy it and so we're seeing that a bit more and more some of it is coming by way of. [38:38] Early Access or exclusivity but also again extending and providing visibility, part of it is again trying to create that confidence that you're getting the best and final deal and also by the way you talk about the bottom line Jason. Is trying to reduce the Deluge of returns that often happen a lot of retailers. Are changing 88 percent according to our research are changing their returns policies and that's going to be a. Big risk and what and how that impacts holiday purchases this year. Jason: [39:13] Yeah you know it's funny there's so many moving Parts it's so complicated you think about like what a big impact inflation had on last holiday and you know good news like it seems like inflation is going to be lower this holiday. Consumer was in a better economic position last year than it seems like they're getting their sure we're seeing credit and defaults and things like that start start to creep up so there's there's just all these moving Parts but one thing I think a lot of people lose sight of is in the last three years predominately driven by the pandemic every retailer has completely reinvented their supply chain and their demand forecasting and I would argue everybody's way better at it now and they have way more agile Supply chains and there they're they're a lot more accurate with their level of inventory which means. They're more confident they're going to sell through their inventory and that changes their discount strategy like they're just all these moving parts that make it really hard to compare your over year when you know. Preview point the last three years sometimes we didn't have anything to sell and then the next year we had two years worth of stuff to say so. Rob: [40:24] I was just talking about that with an executive just earlier today and how retailers have gotten as you said better at demand forecasting. Better at Inventory management and I joke sometimes although I'm only half joking that supply chain has really come to the front office it's like really part of the customer experience at this point and has such an opportunity, to either negatively impact our hopefully positively impact. The customer experience especially when you're you know trying to find product after the shipping cut off window we're anticipating once again a huge uptick for those that have the ability for Consumer to buy online and. Pick it up in and around the store after. [41:06] The ship and cut off window we're seeing seven times higher growth rate for those that have that capability because essentially you're kind of shutting down your online doors if you cannot. Fulfill those orders after the fact and so but that requires to your point Jason like a lot of tuning. Around supply chain order management inventory oh and by the way store associates as well we have to. You know planned for that extra time that they'll have to take to fulfill that order will have to provide the right incentives and will have to give them the tools as well and I think retailers have gotten better at it. I don't think anybody's fully cracked the code but going back to your bottom line point last year for us the holiday theme was profitability and that doesn't go away I think people have gotten meaning retailers have gotten better at it but certainly always opportunity so I'm glad you called that out. Jason: [42:02] Yeah I like to say profit is cool again. Rob: [42:04] Providence cool again yeah. Jason: [42:06] The if you take nothing else away from this episode profit is cool. The the way it's funny like I joke about this but it's kind of serious when I started my career the the VP of supply chain probably started his career as a truck driver and and today that VP of supply chain like probably has a PHD in data science um so it's a that that occupation has dramatically changed the one other follow-up question. One of the cool things about your data set versus some of these other ones I look at is. You guys have real-time access to the data so as we record this we're eight days into November have you seen anything interesting or there any patterns that have stood out it you does it make you more confident in your forecast or in anything that's interesting for listeners to know. Rob: [43:01] Yeah we did look at the first couple days of November and also of course looked at October it's pretty consistent with what we saw, in Q3 in the US we're basically flat in terms of growth however traffic is up so traffic is up four percent. Orders are slightly down what we've seen which I think again is a very nice leading indicator is, product view rates have increased by 5% and add to cart month-over-month so September to October plus a little bit of November we've seen a slight uptick as well so what that's telling us is people are interested. They're doing their research. They're looking for the best deals they're understanding where the inventory is available and so that they're ready to make the move when they feel like they're getting the best and most value. Scot: [43:58] Cool so it sounds like if traffic's up in orders are down a lot of Tire kick in and kind of prepping and watching and making your list and you know could be the start of discount chicken 2.0 will see. Rob: [44:10] There you go exactly 2.0 I'm using that Scott I'm grabbing that I hope that's okay. Scot: [44:14] Discount chicken the chickens Strike Back. Rob: [44:18] Well and also I mean you talked about kick the tires so I think it's a good opportunity for a promo for spiffy at this point too so don't forget to get your gift cards as well right. Scot: [44:28] Yeah yeah we will be running some promos thanks. Jason: [44:30] And if you do kick your tires Scott can come to your house and replace them for you. Rob: [44:34] Exactly. Scot: [44:36] And shop for the new shoes online. Rob: [44:38] There you go I think there's a mash up there there's going to be spiffy and a DDOS coming together for anyways I don't know we'll leave that to the markers. Scot: [44:48] That's a good segue into my question in the predictions on category so I remember last year you guys had some interesting data on that does your prediction. Kind of data science get down into the category slicing of things or that's going to be more in the rearview. Rob: [45:06] Yeah no we certainly look at that we do it obviously based on what we've seen historically we're anticipating for the holiday. Active apparel active Footwear Health and Beauty being really strong so. You know we talk about the big number because that gets the headline in terms of essentially flat growth but we had tisza Pate some nice growth in those areas it's going to be a challenging partly because of comping as a relates to toys and gaming and consumer electronics if you think about that's just macro trend. People are looking for Comfort part of it is coming out of covid and maybe not all of us getting back into three piece suits but also when you feel a little bit of economic uncertainty I was listening to some Financial show. [46:02] While I was traveling over the last couple weeks and somebody put it as kind of the household PL or the household balance sheet you know when you're looking at that in your making choices you're taking more control of your finances which is happening people often migrate not only obviously to value, and safety they're looking at comfort and so there's something to be said for comfort and shoes and Footwear comfort, in apparel and almost the openness to be a bit more comfortable both in Social and in work situation so what are anticipating like I said active apparel active Footwear Health and Beauty being really strong luxury as well don't sleep on luxury they've been the most resilient category. In the pandemic and coming out of the pandemic and so that end of the market has held really well we're seeing a little bit. Of softness and what I'll call the aspirational luxury but as a whole that category is looking really strong and we anticipate it looking pretty strong, during the holiday as well. Scot: [47:12] Yeah this is old school but I remember a channel advisor going through 08-09 we were always shocked that luxury you know it's like the world is falling apart around us and people are like oh yeah I'll get a get a 400 dog and back it's gone. That part of the market just doesn't care that they're immune to those things I guess. Rob: [47:30] They're pretty resilient. Yeah I mean one other thing I'll throw in there just because I'm talking about it more and more with customers as we think about the holiday more as a. I think Bellwether to what will anticipate next year over the course and this is a global number but over the course of holiday were anticipating 194 billion dollars of online sales being influenced by a. Sorry are you thought you were going to get through this whole I know should I have not done that I'm sorry because you definitely that's on your bingo sheet. Jason: [48:07] Now I have to check the there's a I in this episode flag on iTunes. Rob: [48:11] Exactly well might get some more traffic that way so who knows but we find that super interesting most of it I want to like temper that. A lot because people are getting really excited about that headline is most of it will be from predictive a I like product recommendations which we've been doing for quite some time we're starting to see some early adoption of generative AI whether that's in email marketing with subject lines or body copy for that Saint product detail page with product descriptions or in service super interesting wood Gucci is doing and what they call a Gucci 9 their service center and teeing up responses for their agent to make them more efficient and allow them to scale but also stay on brand and so we'll see that a bit more but again a vast majority like I said it's around globally sixteen Seventeen percent of all sales will be influenced by AI this holiday. Jason: [49:06] That interesting so Rob we're almost out of time but I want to throw a super meaty 12 you for for a final question Scott was making fun of me but I am super interested in these Chinese brands that are capturing attention and share in the u.s. right and in particular that's that's Tim ooh which is has more traffic than Target more sales than Ed see in the United States Xi'an is the largest apparel reseller in the United States and then to a lesser extent Tick-Tock which has the vast majority of consumers attention in the United States and is now trying to sell stuff to people. What super interesting is it's not obvious those guys are all growing at Breakneck Pace much faster than your your nine percent growth number it's not obvious if or who they're taking share from so I'm curious of you if you have any POV it kind of seems like there they're inventing new demand or at the very least they're taking sure from brick-and-mortar it does not appear they're taking sure from the Amazons of the world. Rob: [50:09] Yeah that's awesome I'm glad you're addressing this I've just spent a couple weeks. In Europe I was in four different cities so talking to a lot of luxury Brands talking to a lot of traditional brick and mortars, and this is an area one of the executives put out Tech intermediary and I told him I would steal that and here you go I'm stealing it. Because I would say those that you just categorized are really wedging themselves in between the demand and the supply and they're creating a whole new platform where. It was just an originally with Tik-Tok and others about inspiration and now it's about purchase and so you know what we're seeing in Jason you and I have talked about this got 20 degree as well this idea of embedded Commerce or shopping at the edge. Where the buy button is being pushed up through the funnel on these delivery platforms again these Tech intermediaries I mean if you think about it they're almost like. The next generation of the shopping mall the shopping mall is created because of access because the highway here in the states and it created a place for people to hang out for people to get some food for people to shop. [51:16] People to socialize and because of that hey they could have tenants who that would then pay rent and sell stuff right and it's not dissimilar to what these Tech into mediators are doing in that they're monetizing their traffic I think they're coming after, the brick-and-mortar to a degree they're all so I wouldn't say creating more demand but fraying some of the man from. The brand sites because the brands are showing up there and so I would say there. [51:52] A little bit creating more demand but more than that they're kind of defraying the demand we've seen is. A high degree of growth thirty percent over the last couple of years of growth on these third-party intermediaries that we're talking about and they are taking from other platforms. Jason: [52:14] Interesting I don't know what the real answer is but I do know it's super interesting and important to pay attention to so I'm glad we brought it up but Rob that is going to have to be where we leave it because we have used up all of our allotted time I'm going to make sure to put a link to the Salesforce holiday dashboard in the show notes and super grateful for you taking at time and I hope you have a great Thanksgiving and we're looking forward to talking with you right after Cyber Monday. Rob: [52:45] Thanks Jason Banks got ya looking for doing a short couple weeks looking forward to talking to you then. Scot: [52:50] You robbed remind listeners where they can find your pontification xand and do they just Google the the index to find your daily things or like is there a quick URL that you guys have that. Rob: [53:04] Yeah you know to be honest with you the best way to is go to Google and put in shopping index Salesforce and you'll get to our holiday insights Hub so it not only has the dashboards but has all of the blog's were writing and all of the up-to-date analysis. Scot: [53:20] Cool well thanks we really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to deliver this delicious holiday sandwich for our for Jason I in our listeners. Jason: [53:31] All right you guys be well and until next time happy commercing!

EP312 - Amazon Q3 2023 Earnings

Amazon reported another strong quarter across the board for Q3, soundly exceeding analyst profit expectations and retail industry averages. In this episode we break down the AWS AI, Ads, and retail performance.

http://jasonandscot.com

Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, Chief Commerce Strategy Officer at Publicis, and Scot Wingo, CEO of GetSpiffy and Co-Founder of ChannelAdvisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing.

Transcript

Jason: [0:23] Welcome to the Jason and Scot show this is episode 312 being recorded on Monday October 30th right before Halloween I'm Jason retailgeek Goldberg and as usual I'm here with your co-host Scot Wingo. Scot: [0:38] Hey Jason and welcome back to Jason and Scot show listeners Jason it's a Halloween Eve hallow Eve but also we just watch the Mac live presentation from Apple or live presented recorded earlier presentation from Apple about new Macs, so I don't know I think I'm going to ask you about Max first are you going to get a new Mac are you sitting out this upgrade cycle. Jason: [1:07] I am on the fence guy of course I want one I have scheduled a meeting with my family CFO to see if I can, I can justify it so so we'll see I did not order one tonight I'm actually. Still super happy with my M1 MacBook Pro so so I know M3 is at least three times better so so of course I want one but we'll see when I pull the trigger what about you is yours already on the way. Scot: [1:38] I have been a while without an upgrade and running a little long on the tooth on this guy so yes I have a new machine coming they were actually pretty generous on the trade-ins you should just do an experiment before you talk to the CFO plug-in that trade in and see if it. Jason: [1:56] That could be the. Scot: [1:58] You a better presentation also if you have an Apple credit card which I'm sure you do they have a really compelling offer there. Jason: [2:07] All right lots of lots of good good things to consider my nine-year-old has made it clear that we're not allowed to trade anything in it. Scot: [2:17] It's got dibs on. Jason: [2:20] He's very he's very aware of the technology trickle down. Scot: [2:24] Oh man well you can somewhere down the stream there's going to be one that you could trade in but I don't think it may have as much impact as your courage. Jason: [2:32] I I don't know if he's ever going to own a computer device with a keyboard will see but yeah he's actually not that interested in my laptop. Scot: [2:40] Speaking of baby geek or I guess now he's I don't know kindergarten geek. Jason: [2:46] Third grade geek. Scot: [2:47] Third grade geek what's he thinking about Halloween I hear he's kind of outgrown Star Wars which makes me casa. Jason: [2:56] He still like Star Wars but he yeah he is not doing a Star Wars character last year he did a Pokemon character he did Pikachu and this year he's stepped up to Charizard so that. Scot: [3:09] Very rare. Jason: [3:11] Enables well I think it depends on which Charizard butt. That steps up the whole opportunity to build pyrotechnics into the costume. Scot: [3:21] All right watch out for some evil Pokemon people that try to capture. Jason: [3:26] Yeah I think the big debate in our house which isn't hasn't fully happened yet is who's trick-or-treating with Stephen and who's staying behind to try to scare the bejesus out of neighborhood kids. Scot: [3:36] I'm thinking you and a gorilla suit or you could be in the last year's Pokemon suit or Pikachu suit that could be a fun combo. Jason: [3:45] Yeah last year I actually had knee surgery only a few days before Halloween so I won by default because I couldn't really walk but this year I feel like I have no good excuse. Scot: [3:56] Right as the title shows the purpose of this as we have some Amazon news to report on. Jason: [4:02] Amazon news your margin is there opportunity. Scot: [4:15] Well Jason it was a kind of interesting setup coming into Earth earning season this quarter the whole world was focused not on e-commerce not on marketplaces not on omni-channel not on payments some of our favorite topics but also not on ads one of your favorite topics but everyone is now obsessed with AI thanks to the success of chat Juju GPT so coming into the quarter Amazon was kind of on the backside of a lot of the other big companies so we had Microsoft come out and they did really well with AI the their partnership with open a.i. / chat gbt is bringing tons of workloads to azure. How much is their cloud computing platform and then Google really underwhelmed everyone with what they're doing there you know they're they're kind of tiptoeing it's very clear that they don't want to kill the Golden Goose that is Google search by putting too much AI to that so allow their experiments are in Bard which is kind of way off to the side I've tried barred three times I can never get it to have the features that they say it should because my corporate Google account you know either won't have access or it says that feature is not here yet. Um and I think people are really starting to worry about Google on this one. So then that teed it up where all eyes were on AWS to see how are they doing and I think we've covered this but. [5:44] The Amazons approach to this is to be kind of agnostic for lack of a better word so they're kind of like hey if you want to use. Any of these different models we're going to basically let you run them on AWS compute and we're going to have all kinds of different graphic Processing Unit or GPU tears available from you know their own chip set to older Nvidia chip sets to the new ones and kind of be y 0, LM bring your own large language model. [6:18] And then oh yeah also Facebook did pretty well and you know they're definitely through the worst of the Privacy changes that Apple put out and they have an approach to AI that is an open source one so they're basically saying hey we're going to integrate this in our products and what we build we're going to put out there kind of almost scorched Earth in a way saying why don't we just open source this thing and maybe that will slow down our competitors who are going to use this to to generate their own revenue and because they don't have a cloud piece they don't and they're pure advertising it doesn't really, Concord hurt them to do this so they're not making Cloud Revenue off of it but it's become a popular one and it's called llama in case anyone is it from there then, okay so just not to leave everyone in suspense because we usually talk about AWS kind of later in the Amazon update we're going to cover it first so the ended up having a really good ADB is showing so I would say people got kind of panicky and we're expecting it to be down and it kind of came in line. [7:22] But what that people excited was part of the talk track on the conference call Co jassy said that they're winning some big AI workloads they talked about some big deals had close towards the end of the quarter that we're pretty significant and what's happening is as you know what's what a i chat gbt is trained on the broader internet and anything that they can throw into there. [7:49] And that's interesting but what's happening is corporations and. Both big corporations for internal use but then also other corporations they're wanting to train a large language model on their data and they also don't want that data to kind of leak into the broader ecosystem so that's that's really benefiting Amazon because it turns out a lot of the data that companies want to train these lme's are are already in AWS so instead of paying all this money to pull the data out of AWS and then synchronize it back into your LM as as Amazon anticipated with this kind of open bring by0 LM model. People are bringing the LMS to them and using the data because it's already in AWS and it's easier for the llm to just kind of go right there and grab it versus moving the data around. [8:44] That may not make a lot of sense so let me give you kind of a random example let's say you're a big added see like I'll pick up, this one called publicist they're out of France and most people haven't heard of them and let's say that that French Ad Agency wanted to save a bunch of money they could take like. Let's say 3:00 of content from like a podcast transcript or something like that. And they could use that content let's say someone of their company like a detailed digital retail payment strategy vice president general manager type person with a big crazy title like that. They could put that data out there and run an llm on day ws and train that data on it. The llm on that data and then they could have for example just picking something random they could have a retailgeek bye. That was basically as good as the human probably ninety percent so good enough but you know this thing could run 24/7 you could actually you could have as many of them you could clone it on two different processors after you get through the training mode and you were in D quote-unquote inference mode and it also doesn't take breaks it doesn't need, Starbucks vanilla lattes constantly it doesn't have expense reports it just. Does its job and doesn't complain and doesn't ask for raises so that's that's a that's a use case that something like that would work did that make. Jason: [10:08] Specific hypothetical there Scott. Scot: [10:11] Is randomly chosen just kind of picked it out of the are there. Jason: [10:14] It almost sounds like the more words in your title the more vulnerable you would be to AI disruption. Scot: [10:20] I thought about that but it is does make sense because that's essentially more tokens for the AI to learn just like right there in your title you're basically asking for it if you're a robot Overlord you're kind of picking on who to go for a first I would look for large titles person. I don't know I don't know how their training these things. Jason: [10:37] There I know you're the investment guy in our podcast but there's this investment theory that you don't you don't, be the little guy chasing the big Trend that way you want to do is identify the secondary Trend and so in this scenario as soon as it seems like a i is ready to replace the the blowhard Talking Heads everyone should short Starbucks seems like the. Scot: [10:59] Mmm that's a good point yeah I hadn't thought about that. Jason: [11:02] Yeah because when I lose my job and can't afford those lattes I feel like something I would like I'll take some solace in knowing that you made some money on that. Scot: [11:14] Yeah they'll be like on their conference call we're still working on the data but we've isolated it to this to block window in Chicago and we're pretty sure we have an idea what's going on. Jason: [11:26] I feel like my Starbucks footprint is a lot bigger than Chicago. Scot: [11:29] Well you know the the core of your Bullseye answers is going around. Okay but in all seriousness this is a really interesting blurb from the call where they talked about their strategy gaining traction and they said there's multiple businesses are using their gen AI That's short for gender of a i. Apps on AWS including Adidas people in our European list listeners I think they call it a deed us but I'm here in America we call, here in South the southeast caught Adidas booking.com and United Airlines. And while Jenny eyes Revenue contribution remains small management suggested Revenue quote compares favorably. To some of the other leading providers and this is this is interesting because Amazon's always mum's on revealing anything until the SEC forces them to break out stuff like, for the longest time we didn't know at AWS was then we didn't know what ads were and then they became material enough they had to break them out so so Amazon under Bezos would never have said those words I've like even hinting about what's going on. [12:35] But kind of is interesting because there's a new sheriff in town and also it shows you how important it is that they let everyone know that they are not falling behind and that their room new quote-unquote compares favorably with other other Cloud providers obviously they're talking about Azure once Wall Street analyst I did it is back of the napkin and he kind of said all right I think that they're telling us this is always funny because it's like six degrees of. You know separation so who knows but they basically inferred what they were trying to say reading the tea leaves was that it's about a 400 million-dollar business and already two percentage points of AWS Revenue. Which was basically zero six months ago so that's that that is kind of an interesting thing that came out of nowhere and is already a 400 million quarterly business so that means it's a 1.6 billion annualized run rate business. [13:29] If they're reading the tea leaves right on that so that was the AI part so I thought I'd be important for us to get that out because that was kind of like the new cycle really centered around that, and it is interesting you know you and I are watching this very closely there are e-commerce ramifications you know there's all kinds of, The Innovation here is so rapid it's hard to keep up with there's all kinds of a eyes for creating product detail pages and you know all kinds of, e-commerce oriented support Bots and it's just like amazing a lot of AI applications for optimizing warehouses it's just like overwhelming how much is out there we're definitely in the, tippy top of the hype curve and you know a lot of businesses are still sorting through all this but that was the that was the. [14:16] Dean on e-commerce retail side of things and non ads with that behind us the other big win for the quarter I thought you'd want to kind of fill us in on was the advertising part what did you see there. Jason: [14:30] Yeah yeah I want to jump into ads I do want to just say quickly it's interesting on the AWS because they posted solid numbers they posted 12 percent growth for AWS and they announced that they won the whole dialogue was about all these AI workloads that you just covered but they haven't recognized much of the revenue from all of these new AI workload wins yet so the this 12% growth feels like. Kind of a win based on the Legacy Cloud business even before you start to factor in all this new traction they're getting, I'm AI workload so so that does seem interesting but I just want to reiterate what you started out by saying which is, the the bed at Amazon is that you're going to want to bring the llm to your data and not that you're going to want to bring your data to the llm and that, intuitively. [15:24] Makes a lot of sense so it seems like investors were always pretty happy with their the AI Cloud case that they made. Um so that being said. As far as I'm concerned an even bigger win for them was the ad business so so they generated 12 billion dollars in ad revenue for the quarter that's up 26 percent versus Q3 of last year. Year-to-date that means they're had businesses up 23% from the year before so you know we're comparing that to like the 11 or 12 percent growth they get on AWS. Um [16:02] The ad business grew 21 percent last year so it's grown 23 percent this year that impugns depending on how you factor in seasonality like a 46 to 50 billion dollar run rate for the ad business right now, so if you take a conservative estimate for the the the, margin rate on that business that's generating 2728 billion dollars worth of ibadah for Amazon which is a huge. Huge business and much more profitable than a WS by the way. So the ad business was very robust and a couple of injured interesting takeaways. Amazon is adding more and more video properties they have Thursday Night Football you know they announced that they're going to start embedding ads and Amazon Prime and they'll have a premium offering to bypass Those ads. So there's a lot of opportunity for. Kind of top of the funnel linear programming ads at Amazon none of that is in this. [17:09] 12 billion dollar number right now or very little like all of the potential they've they talked about for this for these non Commerce ads. Is all sort of incremental the weather getting right now. At the moment the vast majority of all Amazon's ads are bottom of the funnel the the sponsored product listing is by far the most. Popular ad that that's growing particularly well and with the particular mix of economic headwinds we have at the moment, a lot of advertising is Shifting to bottom of the funnel people are less interested in investing in awareness and more interested in investing in sales and Amazon turns out to be, the best destination to take that that those dollars to put them into digital ads that generate. Bottom of the funnel results so this quarter everyone was really interested to hear from the advertising companies, to see if advertisers were going to be cutting back right and so you know you mentioned meta had their their earnings call Google had their earnings call Facebook I'm sorry. [18:17] Snap had their their earnings call and ads were uniformly up across everyone's earning so metas ads were up 23%, Google's ads were up 11% Google broke out YouTube ads which were up 12% snap ads were at 5%. But nobody's ads were up as much the 26% that Amazon's were and nobody has had the consistently rapid add growth that Amazon's had the last three quarters. Um so the economic headwinds like do not appear to be. Putting a huge crimp in the the digital advertising business and they appear to be disproportionately benefiting, Amazon and so then you go wait next quarter they're going to be selling ads on all of their video programming and that could easily add another 5 billion dollars just for in to this this annual run rate so. A lot of green lights in the Amazon ad business. Scot: [19:21] The I'm not a huge Sports person but you mentioned Thursday night football and have you seen and kind of marrying this back today I think if you seem Prime Vision have you played with them. Jason: [19:31] I have yeah. Scot: [19:33] So for listeners what they do is on Thursday Night Football if you watch from actually I do it on my Apple TV and I'm in the Prime video app. And then you can it takes you to the standard broadcast just like every other thing but you can go in and then you hit down arrow and you can select a different broadcast which is, Prime vision and what it does they've added feature since they did it they started it they've added all these new AI features that are really amazing so during a pass play they'll show you the most likely Target they put like a Madden asked Circle in real time under the player and, he'll flash like green or something if he's a possible Target on the defense though they'll show a potential Blitzer. They'll show you fourth-down probabilities in real time you know and it's just amazing they've added tons of features of that since I've been watching it and I find it like really adds a ton to the game too. Kind of see you can see the strategy in real time mostly broadcasters you know they'll talk about it like Tony Rome or something but it's way after the play after they've had time to put together animation this is doing it all in real time it's just mind-blowing the amount of compute it must be thrown at that and you know I think it's a it could change the way you think about sports and in a really interesting way. Jason: [20:49] Oh yeah increasingly it's a better experience watching the game at home then you can get in the stadium. Scot: [20:54] Yeah the stadium doesn't do that. Jason: [20:56] They side note for soccer at the World Cup they actually did but you have to watch the whole game like through a are on your phone. Scot: [21:05] Let's see you at the stadium watching the game on your phone. Jason: [21:09] Yeah I mean and it was cool right like saying same sort of thing like it's overlaying all this real-time stats and probability was amazing. Like it's not a very good experience to like hold your phone up and have your camera on the whole time to sort of get all these stats and so. Yeah yeah side no Thursday Night Football is the bane of my existence because I do play Fantasy Football and I never have my act together to have my lineups all set before Thursday night so, usually the game starts and I have to pray that I don't have any super important players that I fail the start and then I can enjoy the game. Scot: [21:46] Okay understood anything else on Dad's. Jason: [21:53] No I think that covers it pretty well on ads you know just. We've we've talked about a lot on the show but the overwhelming success Amazon's having with ads has this of course trickle-down effect that every other player and commerce paste is trying to figure out how to monetize their their traffic and get their share and at the moment nobody's getting, anything like Amazon's add, Commerce ratio and of course the audience eyes is start dropping off really quick after Amazon right you know you get a lot less eyeballs at Walmart then you have it on Amazon and a lot less eyeballs it Target then you have it Walmart and you know once you get smarter than that it starts getting real fragmented real fast. Scot: [22:39] Yeah how do you were still there still even though that's a big number they're still like way far away from Facebook right so so number one is Google by a really big margin and number two is Facebook and then it's Amazon and they're like way ahead of everyone else but they have to even though they're outpacing them, a little bit it would be like decades before they caught up in my own remembering that right. Jason: [23:00] I'm not no I'm not going to say decades it's an order of magnitude it's like 102 million 100 to 200 billion dollar annual run rates for those other guys and. Scot: [23:13] But they're kind of getting to half right. Jason: [23:15] Yeah yeah they are like they there with like within 50 percent of Striking Distance of number two. Scot: [23:23] Yeah if you had said that to us five years ago we would not have believed it I would I would not have seen how I've been. Jason: [23:30] Yeah I've been playing that what would you have thought five years ago game a lot and you you know you talked about who all the winners are in AI if you said five years ago the AI is going to become a huge thing what company is going to win like you we would have all been on Google. Scot: [23:43] Yeah yeah or apple or it would not have been startup called open air that was nonprofit that flip to profit no one saw that coming including Elon Musk yeah. Jason: [23:55] And by opening I you mean Nvidia but yeah. Scot: [23:59] One tidbit I saw on ads I love the leak read the Wall Street reports and they largely talked about the same data but a lot of them are good at very good at modeling and they can when Amazon doesn't tell them something like they don't break out they break out the revenue for ads but they don't break out the profit so it kind of gets swept up into this larger number but then they give you enough pieces you can kind of back into it so one of my favorite analyst he's a friend of the show Scott Devitt he modeled back through there and to your point he basically said that the ad business has a 60%, EB de margin so net margin of 60 percent which is basically like just money raining at this like Google's business model which I guess makes sense because Bass. Jason: [24:46] Is it is good. Scot: [24:48] Yeah because it is Google's business model and this ties into you know you know more about this government stuff than I do but Google's in a pretty nasty fight with the FTC, or the DJ I can't remember some government Bureau important entity that that is claiming they have a monopoly on search and they're basically pointing over here and saying look at these Amazon guys they're closing in on us pretty quick and they always reference those stats that show you know like more than half the people start product searches and those online. Jason: [25:19] Yeah no it's super interesting I Scott Devin is way better at Financial models than me but I actually think he might be under estimating the profitability and part of it is. It's. There's a lot of room for gray area like if you think about the the Amazon business it's super fascinating you know the number one digital Advertiser in the United States of America is you know who buys more ads than anyone else. Amazon. 18 billion dollars a year of ads they buy just from Google so they buy 18 billion dollars worth of eyeballs from Google they use those eyeballs to sell a bunch of stuff that they make money on and then they sell 50 billion dollars are the pants to those eyeballs. Scot: [26:05] Ticket Arbitrage. Jason: [26:06] It's amazing eyeball Arbitrage and you know it's. So how much of that acquisition cost are you factoring into the profitability of the ad business versus the like I would argue that these are not separated bubble businesses as much as ever wants to talk about ads as a separate business to me it only exists because you have all this traffic for Commerce and it's it's a core part of the the Commerce math at this point but we shall. Scot: [26:39] Yeah when we did our instacart coverage of this one now instacart been public for a while and you look at their numbers they're basically only being the whole instacart business is being valued a zero except for that so they're basically trading like an ad company so all of Wall Street said okay that grocery part is kind of like that yeah is there we'll put it in like you know. [27:02] A hundred million dollars and then the ad business is like worth date hundred million dollar ad businesses where they gave it a really nice multiple of like 5x so that's interesting I'm sure, you're going to spoiler alert you're going to see a lot more ads on Insta guard the yeah a lot of people there is a negative and you know no one ever talks about this but a lot of people and this usually comes from a Amazon sellers and they always have kind of a love hate hate hate hate hate relationship with Amazon you know a lot of them would say and I hear this from consumers that the customer experience is the user experience is degraded on Amazon because there's just so many darn ads now you know the and I see it too if I'm looking for a specific thing I'm kind of like a dad at okay that's what I was looking for at some point there is cannibalization there and you know what we don't know is what did they lose from yeah doing this like was their product they didn't sell because people couldn't find it or we'll never really know that but you know kind of hope they're smart enough to figure that calculus Alden make it a huge net positive versus the cannibalization getting close to the ebitda contribution. Jason: [28:10] Oh yeah no I think two things like there definitely is an impact on customer experience and every retailer that gets into this space has a different philosophy about that and Amazon's appears to be the monetization is just worth it but you know you think about everyone other retailers that are not waiting and quite so hard, are trying to balance that and then the new interesting thing is if you're any retailer other than Amazon where all your eyeballs really are is not on your website it's in your store right and but you go we'll wait a minute, the these disruptions that people might tolerate as digital disruptions on a website they may not top you know nobody wants to junk a fi, um a physical store experience with a bunch of you know make it feel like you walked into Times Square every time you walk into, retail store so there's all this interesting calculus on where everyone should land on that the other interesting thing to me is for a while there was a. [29:13] An opportunity for the best practitioners to get outside return so there was a subset of all those Amazon sellers that were really good at the Amazon ad, execution right and they did their smart about where they put their bids they were smarter about the attributes they put in their ad there are smarter about the creative they made for their ad and they could get outside Returns versus other sellers on Amazon but the first Trends you mentioned the AI affectation of this whole business. [29:43] Has sort of made the best practices, dummy proof right and so now you know you just hand a product shot to Amazon and it makes the ad for you and you turn over the bidding strategy to Amazon and it optimizes your bidding for you and so it's squeezing more of the potential profit like out of all of these these other businesses that are built on top of Amazon because it's, kind of. Normalizing the the ad business to everyone and it just becomes a pure pay to pay like who's going to be the most for this eyeball. Scot: [30:21] Yeah kind of supports your theory that maybe the Madonna's higher because they don't have a lot of people sitting there at adding images or something like would they used to do back in the olden days. Jason: [30:31] Is that you used to need this thing called what is it called Ad Agency. Scot: [30:35] Yeah good cut the if you can just get one of those Bots I discussed or just like you have a some a I do it for him. Jason: [30:40] Yeah yeah that was a funny example a few minutes ago. Scot: [30:44] Unrelated news Jason is brushing up to c v so hit him up the so just to zoom out to the big picture so so we kind of dove into the to topical things A to B Us / Ai and adds, those together really causing Amazon to beat Revenue that they came in about one percent higher than Revenue so it was kind of like a slight beat / meat but where they really exceeded oh and revenue came in at 143 billion were they really crushed it was operating income and these two contributed to it but also retail did some interesting things that also yeah I think dramatically helped beat expectations operating income came in at eleven point two billion and expectations which is Wall Street consensus is what they say was seven point seven billion you know so that's like what let's like. Five per billion beat you know like a huge be compared to whatever. Jason: [31:49] 35%. Scot: [31:51] Yeah so that push the stock up 10% and then also we'll talk about guidance and that was positive so, it's been interesting Amazon stock has been kind of in a you know. Funk for lack of better words has been con rallying around at the same level and literally for quite a while like 18 months and this was the first Catalyst to cause a big move and that it's market cap a 10% move at Amazon Lester look we'll get one of our researchers here one of the interns I look okay. So you know they were like 1.2 trillion and now they're like 1.4 trillion so that's you know a move like that takes a lot of dollars when you're bigger than a trillion dollar business to move things it's like a lot of. A lot of value creation can happen in a 1.2 trillion dollar company when it shoots up ten percent in five trading days. Jason: [32:44] 10% 0 by a lot of rocket fuel. Scot: [32:46] It will yes a lot of dates with helicopter Pilots as well and a lot of cool new clothes, so there were some really interesting things you know we spend the bulk of our time here on the Pod talking about retail and e-commerce to our favorite topics so Jason there's a lot of really interesting stuff going on in there as well you want to fill us in on that. Jason: [33:08] Yeah everyone just wants to talk about ads and AI but it turns out that Amazon is actually a pretty good retailer. And so the the retail business also had a good quarter and to kind of set the table, every every listener the show knows I love my US Department of Commerce data so that came out last week 4. [33:31] September which gives us Q3 data for the industry so us retail data in September this was up one point year-to-date sales in the United States January through September we're at one point nine percent this year versus last year. It's a 35 percent versus before the pandemic in 2019 so 1.9% is not very good growth by historical standards we would normally expect about 4% growth. So if we just look at Q3 growth the industry was up 2% which again half of what you would typically expect. So Amazon's growth for Q3 is 11 percent versus that that industry number of 2% so 11% growth, is very robust the if you kind of, look at Amazon's growth since the pandemic that Q3 number means they're up 85 percent versus Q3 2019 and their year-to-date number is up 111 percent versus 2019. [34:33] So Amazon is a very large retailer arguably number one or number two retailer in the US now, and they're growing way faster than the industry average, and again depending on how you count Walmart would be the number two retailer which is also growing significantly faster than the industry average so that actually, tells you everything you need to know about the rest of the retail industry is that where you know we're having a significant bifurcation and with winners and losers in the space. [35:07] The other side of the retail business for Amazon is international and historically North America has been a very mature Market that has grown and generated profits, International has not made money for Amazon and I would say it was a mixed bag in terms of their International performance, on a constant currency basis International sales were up 11% which it's a smaller less mature business so you'd like to see it growing faster than the, the mature North American Market, um but they're operating loss is way smaller so last year this quarter they lost 2.5 billion dollars this year they only lost a hundred million dollars so nearly break it even for the quarter. Um the this did not come up in their their earnings and no one asked them about this but Marketplace pulse reported earlier this month. That appears Amazon has. Meaningfully curtailed their International expansion and a lot of markets they had announced they were expanding into they seem to have delayed. Postponed or canceled a lot of international market openings, so International definitely is not the start of the show it is also true of a lot of the other markets that say that Amazon's in still have more. [36:26] Just general macroeconomic headwinds than the United States does at the moment a lot of the world has a more severe version of the same macroeconomic problems that we have. In the US so a couple interesting tidbits. [36:44] But in the discussion about the retail business that you know the CFO Bryant. [36:54] Scot I always pronounce his name wrong alsop ski, um brett-brett else got a soft ski talked about how despite the fact that their they had nice growth in retail that they are seeing a cautious consumer who's generally trading down and more Deal seeking, then usual and that's consistent with, cautions that we've heard from other retailers that actually gives me some significant pause for Holiday which we'll talk about later, the the thing that that Amazon was really touting in the retail business is that they dramatically improve their cost to serve, and their speed of delivery in Q3 and that largely was thanks to an initiative they started a couple of quarters ago, this transition from a single National fulfillment Network. To a regional fulfillment Network where they have eight distinct District regions in the United States, that each sort of operate independently in the goal is to have all the the inventory that that Scot Wingo wants to buy, in his region so the goods have to travel less far are less expensive to get to him, and get to him faster and what they announced in the earnings was that the transition to this this. [38:19] Regional model has gone better and exceeded their expectations they're getting more. Incremental profit and faster speed of delivery than they even projected, um out of transitioning to that so this is. [38:37] I know we talked a lot about how big and what a huge moat Amazon would just accept our but I still feel like this is under appreciated by most Amazon's competitors and their there. They're just opening a bigger Gap in speed of service and one of the things they mentioned is that they see a direct correlation between consumable sales and speed of service when they promised that they can get them there faster they sell more paper towels, so I think it's very clear that that consumers want speed of service, and Amazon has a huge advantage and it appears to be getting even bigger so that's interesting another thing I talk about a lot. [39:20] Um is there's a few new retailers that are also stealing significant share, um very quickly and they're primarily Chinese companies so it's she in and most notably Tim oh, and so well like they certainly didn't come up in the Amazon earnings a lot of the analysts started looking at the the, rapid growth that Tim is getting and trying to figure out if they're stealing share from Amazon and evercore did a big consumer survey, and the results of their survey was that Tim ooh is mostly not stealing share from Amazon that most of its shares coming from, other retailers and in many cases coming from brick-and-mortar value retailers in the US so the dollar stores and it appears that that Amazon is more insulated from the. The growth and profit that they're getting so all of that you know rolls up to be a pretty impressive. Quarter I you've talked about it a lot but it kind of feels like Amazon's got a bunch of knobs that they can turn whenever they want to improve profitability and it feels like, they both added more knobs that can turn this quarter and they turn some of them. Scot: [40:37] Yeah the other thing that's really interesting is if you look at. Amazon and you can't really read because they have so many employees in the Fulfillment centers you can't really tell their employee growth and it's surging right now is they prefer prepare for holiday but another really interesting trend is Google meta and there's one of the other ones Microsoft their revenue per employee is surging so they're they're actually not hiring many people right now and, the assumption is these companies are leveraging AI internally and becoming exceedingly efficient and you kind of wonder. Is Amazon doing the same thing I hear inklings we have kids that are not so far out of college they don't know folks looking for jobs and things I hear inklings that Amazon is not really hiring that much as they kind of were at one point so I kind of wonder, are they also hiding behind that that have like a million employees and it surges like 200,000 for holiday so it doesn't look like they're being more productive but what they don't do is put out corporate versus fulfillment center. Have to have an idea that if we looked at corporate there also. [41:48] One dial they've turned its new is I think they're not hiring as me folk because people are getting a lot of efficiencies from these AI. Systems that these companies are dogfooding internally. And because they're they're a little bit further ahead than kind of like what we see out of the lme's I think they're doing some really interesting things that they will productized and we will we will see what they're doing in a lot of it can be this like really focused you know create an ad you know a lot of the stuff that used to be, kind of out sourced or you would have to throw a bunch of bodies at it I think there's LMS doing a lot of that you know customer support Bots think things like that that you know I think there's a lot of efficiencies going on inside of their that's helping these guys really beat their earnings numbers. Jason: [42:38] Yeah I do think that's true it's not lost on me that just as the retailgeek bought is gonna replace me at poobah says all the other places that might have hired me are also not so my fallback is that I may be washing cars at spiffy so we'll see how that. That all plays out but I promise to work hard of it if it comes to that Scott. Scot: [42:58] Absolutely it also we could just turn this podcast into the entire ads so that could be could be here our second asked yeah. Jason: [43:04] We can monetize the podcast I'm not I'm not doing that to the listeners they advertisers would make us make a shorter podcast Scott. Scot: [43:13] Yeah yeah. Jason: [43:14] I'm not down for that I'm not down for it. Even if I have to wash cars the I think you're certainly right like a lot of these companies and Amazon very overtly has has put some more barriers and in place in terms of corporate hires. The one notable exception being the AI space they're hiring pretty rapidly. Um but I also think in addition anything you mentioned that Amazon's actually finally like really leaning into the Fulfillment center automation so while they've always. Been a leader in in having fulfillment center, not all their fulfillment centers in a big chunk of their fulfillment centers were not highly automated and so I think they're now automating all of them and they're rapidly moving to sort of next-gen automation. Um you know where everyone else is kind of putting their first robots and you know moving things around the warehouse more efficiently. Amazon is like rolling out new technology that's a lot more. Seamless in how the people and the automation work together in a in a safe cohesive way so I do think one of the levers Amazon has is. You know to really add more Automation in those in those fulfillment centers and in that cost to serve. Scot: [44:39] Absolutely it's kind of interesting because we started spiffy, which is my on-demand car care company where you're going to come wash cars people are like AI is you know they'll be a robot that can do this in five years I was like I don't know like you know the Boston Dynamics robots are cool but they're not. Let's just programmed well I don't think it's like that you know it's not thinking and who would have guessed that a I would replace you know the digital retail Talking Heads first and and not. Not the physical things I think the physical stuff is going to take a lot longer but who knows once these a eyes you have there's Tesla has that that demonstration of theirs was The Optimist that you know it kind of is learning things as it goes and making inference in real time so that is kind of you know we who knows where all this is going to go. If we back to it now and not science fiction but your term science fiction so. [45:37] Looking forward for fourth quarter they put guidance out that they're going to see growth in the fourth quarter of 7 to 12% the midpoint of that range which let's see would be 9 and change itself was five and a half percent above the consensus midpoint so this is what we would call A Classic. Meet Top Line Crush bottom line on the current quarter and then raised the next quarter both top and bottom line pretty substantially so that you know. This is an important data point when we kind of swirl it together with your Department of Commerce data it does seem like Amazon signaling they're feeling pretty good about the fourth quarter and everyone felt like this was kind of conservative given I didn't put the bottom line number but they felt like that was pretty conservative given what they just did and you know they felt like dad a lot of room to kind of beat that number and maybe it's going to be more like 14 15 percent growth which would be you have a new post covid reversion hi I guess you would look at it where do you did you leave this feeling more optimistic about Q4 or we are your classic Jason curmudgeon myself. Jason: [46:54] Yeah no I think I'm mostly curmudgeon e not for Amazon I actually I think their guidance seems realistic to me. [47:06] On the top line I think the bottom line is just totally up to their whims like if they want to blow away the bottom line they can if they want to invest at all in you know new. [47:18] New AI capabilities and and keep the bottom line constrain they can do that too but the that, Top Line I think they're likely to hit their guidance and again you know one or two other big retailers might you know have a pretty robust holiday as well but I actually think that that sucks all the, the potential growth out of the market for holiday and so I actually think. That sort of signifies potentially Bleak holiday season for a lot of other traditional retailers so I guess it's a. Little bifurcated it's good news for Amazon will see what a Walmart's Q3 earnings look like they announced on November 16th, but I do feel like endemic lie Amazon and Walmart have some, some inherent advantages that are insulating them from some of the economic headwinds and I think that that really just makes things, that much more difficult for the the rest of retail and so I desperately want to be wrong but I think it's going to be, I kind of disappointing holiday for a bunch of folks there also was sort of some if you really listen to the Q&A portion of the investor call, there. [48:45] The the CFO in particular had some concerns about capacity around Q4 and one of the things he called that was carrier capacity which is interesting because Amazon does so much. Of their own fulfillment now that they're just way less dependent on third-party carriers but if he's worried about carrier capacity for Q4 you can bet that means that every other retailer ought to be really concerned, about carrier capacity for cube Q4, and so we you know we feel like we talked about that every holiday season but Amazon's got a lot of. New fulfillment center capacity that's coming online in Q3 of this year and will even in Q4 and so I guess. If there's one thing that could glitch it Amazon if there's not enough delivery capacity if some of these new fulfillment centers have any, any sort of glitches or delays and coming online that you know that that could be the constraining factor for their Q4 growth. Scot: [49:50] There's so sprinkle of curmudgeon e speaking of holiday where can listeners go if they want to get the best holiday news even though we haven't been potting as much as we want to because our day jobs have been absorbing a fair amount of time this year we are going to have some killer content around this holiday and kicking it off we have our very own jacent live not an AI and you're going to do a little webinar for Commerce next what's that all about and when is it. Jason: [50:22] Yeah yeah so on Monday November 6 which I think is a week from now if I'm not mistaken we're doing a Commerce next webinar where we'll sort of preview the holiday season so you heard the very early preview just now but we'll go into more detail share some of the third-party forecast for Holiday Good News, all the other predictors are much more optimistic than I am so so we'll hit that on November 6 and then of course there will be all the good real time holiday news that will be will be hitting pretty hot and heavy here on the podcast so we'll we'll have some of the best data sources, right before and after the holiday to kind of talk about where things are going and what actually. [51:15] And with that I think it is happen again we've used up all our allotted time as always if this deep dive in Amazon's earnings was valuable for you the way you can repay that value is to jump on iTunes and give us that five-star review. Scot: [51:31] Thanks everyone and Jason until next time. Jason: [51:34] Happy conversing.