The Long View

By Morningstar, Christine Benz - Director of Personal Finance and Retirement Planning, Ben Johnson - Head of Client Solutions, Amy Arnott - Portfolio StrategistBusiness Entrepreneurship Investing Careers

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The Long View episodes

June 19, 2019 Harold Evensky: 'It's an Unmitigated Disaster'
This week's guest on The Long View is financial advisor Harold Evensky, who Morningstar managing director Don Phillips has often called the "dean of financial planning."
Evensky is chairman of Evensky & Katz/Foldes Financial, and he's a retired professor of personal financial planning at Texas Tech University. Evensky has been extremely active in the planning community during his career. He's the past chairman of the International CFP Council, the CFP Board of Directors, the CFP Council on Examinations, and the Board of Appeals. Evensky is a frequent public speaker and has authored several books, including The New Wealth Management. During the course of this conversation, he weighed in on the SEC's newly approved Regulation Best Interest, calling it an "unmitigated disaster." He also discussed asset allocation leading up to and in retirement, his firm's application of a core/satellite approach, and different business models for financial advice.
Show Notes and References
Background (0:18-0:57)
• Harold Evensky bio
• Evensky & Katz/Foldes Financial
• Personal Financial Planning Department, Texas Tech University
• Financial Planning Standards Board Council (formerly known as "International CFP Council")
• CFP Board of Directors (formerly "Board of Governors")
• CFP Council on Examinations (formerly "Board of Examiners")
• The New Wealth Management: The Financial Advisor's Guide to Managing and Investing Client Assets (CFA Institute Investment Series Book 28) by Harold Evensky
• Books by Harold Evensky
Evensky explains why his practice opted to charge clients a percentage of assets under advisement instead of an annual retainer: "An unmitigated disaster." (0:58-2:51)
How Evensky and his fellow practitioners spend their time: "It's all built around the planning." (2:52-4:02)
On the firm's receptiveness to younger clients with less assets to advise: "Absolutely yes." (4:03-4:40)
The future: Comprehensive, modular financial planning. (4:41-6:49)
On the commodification of financial advice: "To the general public … it pretty much looks like the same service." (6:50-7:37)
On robo-advice: "Our conclusion was ... it's dangerous." (7:38-11:15)
• "The Efficacy of Publicly Available Retirement Planning Tools" by Taft Dorman, Barry S. Mulholland, Qianwen Bi, and Harold Evensky (Oct. 9, 2018).
Helping clients navigate turbulence: "Our goal is to call the client before they call us." (11:16-12:15)
The critical importance of communicating with clients: "Brokers and, much to my surprise, trust officers … hide under their desks." (12:16-13:02)
Where risk tolerance and client-specific circumstances come to the fore and human capital and age take a back seat: "Everything calls for a customized mix." (13:03-15:25)
• Human Capital
"That's horribly inefficient." How Evensky came to embrace the simplicity of the core-and-satellite approach to portfolio construction. (15:26-19:27)
Evensky's construct for "explore" positions: "It can be most anything." (19:28-20:37)
Value's dry spell: "The basic concept of the value premium remains viable." (20:38-22:19)
• Dimensional Fund Advisors
Permanent impermanence: How Evensky and his colleagues grapple with investing ephemera. (22:20-23:58)
Global diversification: "We've always believed in an international exposure." (23:59-25:45)
• Home-bias definition
• Market capitalization of listed companies in current prices
Risk tolerance and return needs drive strategic asset-allocation decisions: "Our maximum equity allocation is 80%." (25:46-27:53)
"Rebalancing is an immensely powerful tool, painful though it is in the short-term." (27:54-30:44)
Human capital's influence on the planning process: Car salesman versus tenured professor. (30:45-32:42)
Ramping up equity exposure through retirement: "Intellectually I think it's very sound research; but from a behavioral standpoint I don’t think it's realistic." (32:43-34:24)
• "Reducing Retirement Risk With a Rising Equity Glide Path" by Wade D. Pfau and Michael Kitces (Sept. 12, 2013) .
The simple two-bucket approach: "My experience is the relatively small opportunity costs (associated with the bucketing approach) are way outweighed by the behavioral benefits." (34:25-38:24)
• Testimony of Deena Katz, CFP, on "Boomer Bust? Securing Retirement in a Volatile Economy" before the Senate Special Subcommittee on Aging, Feb. 25, 2009 (see Page 7 for "paycheck syndrome").
Time- and goals-based bucketing: "A great deal of appeal but they don't make any sense." (38:25-39:19)
How the complexion of retirement has changed: People will have to work longer. (39:20-41:32)
"Where's the protection of the investor?" Evensky takes a dim view of the SEC's just-finalized Regulation Best Interest measure. (41:33-43:34)
• "A New Rule Won’t Make Your Broker an Angel" by Jason Zweig, The Wall Street Journal, May 31, 2019.
Competency standards: Professionalism subsumes competency. (43:35-46:57)
About the Podcast: The Long View is a podcast from Morningstar. Each week, hosts Christine Benz and Jeff Ptak conduct an in-depth discussion with a thought leader from the world of investing or personal finance. The podcast is produced by George Castady and Scott Halver.
About the Hosts: Christine Benz and Jeff Ptak have been analysts and commentators on investments and the investment industry for many years. Christine is Morningstar's director of personal finance and senior columnist for Morningstar.com. Jeff is head of global manager research for Morningstar Research Services, overseeing Morningstar's team of 120 manager research analysts in the U.S. and overseas.
To Share Feedback or a Guest Idea: Write us at [email protected]

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50 min
June 12, 2019Aron Szapiro: 'You Can't Fix What You Can't Measure'
Is there a retirement crisis in the United States, and what role does the government have in improving the system? What's the current status of a fiduciary standard for financial advice?
Aron Szapiro, Morningstar's director of policy research and our guest for The Long View podcast, obsesses over these topics. In his role, he and his team conduct research on various matters of public policy and formulate views on policy proposals under consideration by Congress and regulatory bodies. Szapiro has testified before Congress, and he has an inside view of how Washington works: Before venturing into the private sector, he was a senior analyst in the U.S. Government Accountability Office, and he also worked for the New Jersey state legislature.
In this wide-ranging interview, Szapiro defines Morningstar's approach to policy research and homes in on some of the policy matters dominating our discourse today: whether financial advisors should be held to a fiduciary standard, how the U.S. retirement system might be improved, and whether meaningful retirement legislation can make it through partisan gridlock in Washington.
This conversation was recorded on April 30, 2019. Since then, the House passed the SECURE Act (on May 23); that legislation has provisions related to annuities in 401(k) plans, multiple employer plans, and required minimum distributions. As of June 11, 2019, the provisions have not passed the Senate. And the Securities and Exchange Commission approved a final version of Regulation Best Interest, which aims to hold broker/dealers to a higher standard of care than was previously required.
Show Notes and References
Background and Professional Development
Szapiro's trajectory into policy research: "It was this arcane language that I wanted to understand." (1:15-2:39)
• 10 Millennials Making Their Mark on Washington and Beyond
Policy Research
What policy means at Morningstar and for investors: "Policy really drives and dictates a lot of what ends up happening to investors." (2:40-4:55)
How his team avoids conflicts with Morningstar's business interests: "What would be best for investors and what evidence do we have to support that position?" (4:56-6:25)
How his team works to ground policy recommendations in the data: "What we don't do is we don't try to make values-based arguments." (6:26-8:25)
On whether investors are shaping the investment landscape more than policymakers are: "It's in government's long-term interest to make sure we have a system that protects and empowers people to save and make some decisions." (8:26-10:35)
Policy Matters Today
The state of fiduciary regulation for financial advisors: "It's sort of a mess." (10:36-14:53)
Morningstar's Take on the SEC's Proposed Conflict of Interest Rules

The SEC's Best-Interest Proposal: What Morningstar Told Regulators

DOL Sets Date to Propose New Fiduciary Rule

States' role in creating policies that affect investors: "I hope these things build toward a federal solution." (14:54-16:58)
New Jersey Proceeds With Adoption of a Uniform Fiduciary Standard

Nevada's Draft Regulations for a Uniform Fiduciary Standard

What will drive substantive change in Washington with respect to the investment and retirement landscape: "It's a very slow-moving ship." (16:59-19:51)
The State of the U.S. Retirement System
Retirement preparedness in the U.S.: "There are a lot of people who have been left behind by the fragmented system that we have." (19:52-22:48)
How to measure retirement adequacy: "People should be able to sustain their standard of living that they had during their working lives in retirement." (22:49-24:13)
Whether today's retirees are running out of money, and how we would know. "You don't want to do policy by anecdote." (24:14-26:38)
Rand Corporation Retirement and Retirement Benefits Research

2019 Retirement Confidence Survey (EBRI)

On the bifurcation in retirement-plan quality between big and small employers. "Small employers are busy keeping the lights on." (26:39-29:22)
SECURE Act (passed by the U.S. House of Representatives on May 23, 2019)

Retirement Enhancement and Savings Act of 2018

Solutions for Small-Company Retirement Plans

Legislation That Aims to Help Workers Save

On whether the Thrift Savings Plan for federal workers should be available to more workers. "It's great as a model that others can aspire to." (29:23-31:50)
About the Podcast: The Long View is a podcast from Morningstar. Each week, hosts Christine Benz and Jeff Ptak conduct an in-depth discussion with a thought leader from the world of investing or personal finance. The podcast is produced by George Castady and Scott Halver.
About the Hosts: Christine Benz and Jeff Ptak have been analysts and commentators on investments and the investment industry for many years. Christine is Morningstar's director of personal finance and senior columnist for Morningstar.com. Jeff is head of global manager research for Morningstar Research Services, overseeing Morningstar's team of 120 manager research analysts in the U.S. and overseas.
To Share Feedback or a Guest Idea: Write us at [email protected]

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52 min
June 05, 2019Michael Kitces: The Model Has to Change Again
Our guest on this week's podcast is Michael Kitces. Michael is a partner and the director of wealth management for Pinnacle Advisory Group, a Columbia, Maryland-based wealth management firm that advises on about $1.8 billion of assets. In addition, he is a co-founder of the XY Planning Network. As the host of the Financial Advisor Success podcast and the publisher of the popular financial planning industry blog Nerd's Eye View, Michael has established himself as one of the most prolific and insightful commentators on the financial advice business. A fixture on the speaking circuit and in the media, Michael often addresses key trends and innovations in the way advisors serve their clients; our interview with him focused on the future of the financial advice business.
Show Notes and References
Background and Professional Development
Michael’s formative years: “The only thing I really think I figured out by the end of college was … that I didn’t want to do psychology, theater, or medicine” (0:59-2:51)
Michael’s bio

Pinnacle Advisory Group

XY Planning Network

Financial Advisor Success podcast

Nerd’s Eye View blog
Dad’s old life insurance policy: How a wedding gift led Michael down a path to a career in the financial services industry (2:52-4:21)
Michael’s background and entry-path into finance
“He was just a really different guy than everybody else”: Michael’s recounts his breakthrough realization that he wanted to be a financial planner (4:22-6:07) ·
Certified financial planner designation
How Michael used his pre-med training to overcome a crisis of confidence that he didn’t know what he was doing: “I probably shouldn’t be giving them advice; I’m going to hurt someone” (6:08-7:31)
Hippocratic oath
Going deep to differentiate: “I’m going to get really good at these annuity benefit riders” (7:32-8:45)
Leveraging a Mini-Specialization to Gain Experience and Get More Client Referrals” by Michael Kitces (Aug. 16, 2018; Nerd’s Eye View blog)

Variable universal life insurance—a short explainer

The Advisor’s Guide to Annuities (5th Edition) by Michael E. Kitces and John L. Olsen

Behavioral Finance in Practice
Where behavioral finance falls short: Practicality (8:46-11:40)
Recency bias: A brief explainer
Persuasion: Using psychology and coaching to help clients overcome their biases (11:41-13:01)
“Why Evolutionary Psychology May Be Better Than Behavioral Finance Research to Understand Financial Behaviors” by Dr. Derek Tharp, lead researcher for Kitces.com (Jan. 16, 2019; Nerd’s Eye View blog)

Influence: Science and Practice (5th Edition) by Robert Cialdini

Advice that Sticks by Dr. Moira Somers
“Most of us just don’t want to say that about ourselves”: Clients don’t hire us to save them from themselves, but to get on a better path and save time (13:02-16:37)
“Do Clients Really Value Getting Help Managing Their Behavior Gap?”; transcript of episode 5 of “Kitces and Carl” video series
“Zoom the camera out a little bit”: The key to helping clients through difficult times is being available, clearly communicating, and setting context (16:38-18:18)
“There’s very little research at all about what you’re actually supposed to do about this stuff” (18:19-19:56)
Financial Advice: Evolution and Great Leaps
“Disturbingly like clockwork”: Technology’s role in propelling financial-advice from stock-brokering to the mutual-fund era to asset-allocation models (19:57-22:14)
“How May Day Remade Wall Street” by Jason Zweig (May 1, 2015; Wall Street Journal; Total Return Blog)

“So Easy a Baby Could Do It” E-trade commercial
Computers disrupted the stock-broker model and the internet disrupted the mutual-fund model. Michael on why he thinks software will disrupt the fee-based asset-allocation model (22:15-24:06)
An S&P 500 index fund just for you: “Technology is going to allow us to completely disintermediate not just mutual funds but most of the ETF complex as well” (24:07-25:36)
“Indexing 2.0: How Declining Transaction Costs and Robo-Indexing Could Disintermediate Index Mutual Funds and ETFs” by Michael Kitces (May 28, 2014; Nerd’s Eye View blog)

“Global Fund Flows Report” by Morningstar
The Future of Advice
“If we can do that with medicine and we can do this with clothing, we can do this with at least large portion of financial advice as well”: Michael on delivering advice virtually (25:37-30:25)
“How Video Conferencing Can Put the Face-to-Face (Back) into Distance Financial Planning Client Relationships” by Michael Kitces (July 27, 2015; Nerd’s Eye View blog)
“(Saying) ‘Oh no one’s ever going to want to work with an advisor virtually; it’s all in person’ … is like clothing stores insisting that Amazon was no threat to them 20 years ago” (30:26-32:56)
“The Future of Financial Planning in the Digital Age,” a presentation by Michael Kitces to FPA Georgia (May 24, 2017)

“Is Digital Search About to Replace Referrals for Finding a Good Financial Advisor” by Michael Kitces (June 3, 2013; Nerd’s Eye View blog)
Technology leaps like robo-advice are less of a threat to the financial advisor than to the the back- and middle-office that supports them (32:57-33:54)
“The Advisory Firm Jobs That Robots Really Do Threaten” by Michael Kitces (May 10, 2018; Nerd’s Eye View blog)
The great inversion: In the future, advisors will charge for financial-planning services and give away investment management for free (vs. today where the opposite often holds true) (33:55-35:36)
“Pricing Models for Financial Adviosrs and the Power of 'Free' Financial Planning” by Michael Kitces (Aug. 10, 2015; Nerd’s Eye View blog)
Best Practices for Delivering and Paying for Advice
“We still have a huge industry gap”: Not even 30% of financial advisors have achieved a baseline financial-planning designation—the CFP mark (35:37-39:20)
“3 Reasons Why the Financial Advisor Market Size Isn’t Actually Shrinking” by Michael Kitces (Nov. 15, 2018; Nerd’s Eye View blog)

“The Long Tail, the Big Head, and the Dangerous Middle of Financial Advisory Firms” by Michael Kitces (Aug. 27, 2018; Nerd’s Eye View blog)

FINRA Series 6 exam

FINRA Series 63 exam

FINRA Series 7 exam

FINRA Series 65 exam
A question of when, not if, more exacting financial-advice standards will arrive: “The U.S. has become a laggard on fiduciary and competency standards” (39:21-43:21)
Australia’s Financial Adviser Standards and Ethics Authority (FASEA)

The Fiduciary Standard

“Is Financial Planning an Industry or a Profession?” by Michael Kitces (Dec. 15, 2016; Nerd’s Eye View blog)
We can’t do financial advice for young people? Michael on why that’s ridiculous and how flat-fee or subscription-based advice will come to fill that void (43:22-46:51)
“How the Financial Planning Process Differs for Young Clients: Not Simpler, but Different Complexities” by Michael Kitces (Apr. 17, 2019; Nerd’s Eye View blog)

“Introducing AdvicePay and the Automation of Billing Financial Planning Fees (without Custody)” by Michael Kitces (Jan. 22, 2018; Nerd’s Eye View blog)

“The New 1% Advisory Fee: 1% of Income, Instead of 1% of Assets” by Michael Kitces (Feb. 11, 2019; Nerd’s Eye View blog)
“I don’t … see anything wrong with the AUM model”: Why charging a percentage of assets-under-advisement makes sense for some clients, but will become less common in the future (46:52-48:56)
“How to Profitably Price Fee-for-Service Financial Planning” by Alan Moore, co-founder XY Planning Network (May 21, 2018; Nerd’s Eye View blog)
When it does and doesn’t makes sense to pay for financial advice by the hour (48:57:51:47)
“The Opportunities in Providing Hourly As-Needed Financial Advice for the Middle Market with Sheryl Garrett” by Michael Kitces (Jan. 23, 2018; Financial Advisor Success podcast)
About the Podcast: The Long View is a podcast from Morningstar. Each week, hosts Christine Benz and Jeff Ptak conduct an in-depth discussion with a thought leader from the world of investing or personal finance. The podcast is produced by George Castady and Scott Halver.
About the Hosts: Christine Benz and Jeff Ptak have been analysts and commentators on investments and the investment industry for many years. Christine is Morningstar's director of personal finance and senior columnist for Morningstar.com. Jeff is head of global manager research in Morningstar Research Services, overseeing Morningstar's team of 120 manager research analysts in the U.S. and overseas.
To Share Feedback or a Guest Idea: Write us at [email protected]

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55 min
May 29, 2019 Carolyn McClanahan: There's More to Money Than Just the Numbers
Our guest for this week's installment of The Long View podcast sits at the busy intersection of healthcare and financial planning. Carolyn McClanahan was a practicing physician for a number of years, but after a frustrating search for a financial planner for her and her husband, she decided to study financial planning and earned the CFP designation. In 2004, she founded financial planning firm Life Planning Partners, and serves as the firm's director of financial planning. She also co-founded Whealthcare, a software program that identifies and troubleshoots age-related financial risks.
Carolyn strongly believes that individuals and financial advisors should think proactively about the implications of aging for healthcare and financial planning. She is also sought-after as a public speaker and a media expert on matters of aging, healthcare, and personal finances.
Show Notes
The quest for real advice: How a "math nerd" found her way to medicine and eventually sought financial advice (1:12-3:32)
Frustrated: How disappointing experiences with financial advisors spurred Carolyn to pursue a career in financial planning (3:33-4:56)
"It worked beautifully": Why Carolyn decided to charge flat fees for her planning services instead of taking a percentage of client's assets (4:57-6:50)
"It's a lot harder": Carolyn explains why the flat-fee model isn't more commonplace, how they determine the right fee for each client, and why it makes economic sense (6:51-8:44)
An "ensemble model": How Carolyn built her practice and how she hones her focus (8:45-13:01)
A piece, not the whole pie: The role investments play in a client's financial plan (and how to avoid expectation gaps) (13:02-14:43)
The healthcare spending conundrum: "We spend so much money on end-stage healthcare that really doesn't help anybody." (14:44-17:39)
Heal thyself: "We're going to start seeing lawsuits from employees…about employers not being good purchasers of (health) insurance" (17:40-19:35)
Primary care as a public service: Carolyn's ideal healthcare system puts community health centers at its core (and removes primary care from insurance coverage) (19:36-22:35)
How to address the big-four "aging planning" issues: When to stop driving, when to move, when to get help with financial decisions, when to get help with healthcare decisions (22:36-26:02)
How to take the keys away: Addressing the issue of aging parents who shouldn't be driving anymore (26:03-28:08)
Bringing the family together: "90% of fraud and abuse is done by people close to you" (28:09-30:36)
"It's been a beautiful thing to use": How Carolyn employs "engagement standards" to align expectations and ensure clients commit to the plan (30:37-32:42)
Cognitive decline: "A client's biggest risk to their financial security is actually themselves" (32:43-34:33)
How to plan for healthcare spends: Live healthy, work as long as you can, reflect on how you use healthcare (34:34-37:52)
Whealthcare: A programmatic attempt to project and plan for healthcare costs (37:53-39:02)
A construct for long-term care planning: "People who are very healthy are going to have a longer long-term care need; people with dementia have an average long-term care need; if you're very unhealthy you don't have to worry about long-term care." (39:03-42:10)
Paying for long-term care: Carolyn suggests setting aside a "bucket" of money to self-fund long-term care, which avoids problems with acceptance into nursing facilities and complexity of long-term care insurance (42:11-45:20)
"There's more to money than just the numbers": Why hybrid long-term care insurance isn't usually a good answer, but sometimes piece of mind makes up for its opportunity costs (45:21-47:45)
How to avoid cognitive decline: It's not all hereditary, so learn as much as possible and live a healthy lifestyle (47:46-50:31)
Other ways to anticipate and manage cognitive decline: How a checklist helped a client determine he was suffering a series of mini-strokes (50:32-53:29)
References
Caroyln McLanahan bio
Whealthcare
National Association of Personal Financial Advisors (NAPFA)
Employee Benefit Research Institute

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56 min
May 24, 2019 Tim Buckley: There’s No One Even Close to Us
Our guest in this special bonus episode of The Long View podcast is Tim Buckley, chairman and CEO of the Vanguard Group, which manages over $5 trillion in assets globally. Tim took the helm at Vanguard in January 2018, succeeding Bill McNabb. Tim is a longtime Vanguard veteran, having joined the firm in 1991. Before assuming his current role, he served as Vanguard’s chief investment officer, head of its retail investor group, as well as its chief information officer.

In this mini episode, which was recorded live at the 31st annual Morningstar Investment Conference in Chicago, we discuss the significance of Vanguard's recent Morningstar Award for Investing Excellence, which the firm received for exemplary stewardship. Tim also addressed how Vanguard attempts to balance growth with delivering good outcomes to clients, its capital allocation philosophy and key initiatives, the future of advice, the trend toward "free" funds, as well as the firm's recent forays into sustainable investing, among other topics.
Show Notes
“It’s the core of Vanguard”: What stewardship and investor-centricity has meant to the firm (0:28-1:20)

Defining “client”: How Vanguard balances off the objectives of its different lines of business (1:21-2:51)

Incredible scale can’t be taken for granted: Is it enough to just be a fund company? (2:52-4:15)

Gazing into our crystal ball: What Vanguard looks like in 10 years and how that compares to today (4:16-5:30)

Goal-setting: How Vanguard defines success and how that informs the way they run the business (5:31-6:40)

The future of advice: “I can’t imagine anything but the price (for advice) coming down” (6:41-7:24)

Embrace technology and personalize: Tim’s counsel to advisors who are trying to adapt to falling advice fees (7:25-8:43)

“There’s no one even close to us”: What matters in a “freemium” world is the cost of the whole portfolio (8:44-10:12)

Pathways to growth: The future of ESG funds and factor investing and how Vanguard tries to position these strategies to advisors and other markets (10:13-12:40)

“All the money flowing to index funds--it’s not because active doesn’t work. It’s because high-cost active doesn’t work” (12:41-14:31)

“You can have your cake and eat it, too, in the active ESG approach”: How to succeed with ESG investing (14:32-16:22)

Best practices: How Vanguard settled on its approach to ESG investing (16:23-17:02)

“We’ve looked”: Vanguard’s approach to capital investment and answering the build-vs.-buy question (17:03-18:26)

“Vanguard is defined by its structure, and we’re going to keep it”: Tim on why Vanguard will never de-mutualize (18:27-19:20)

References
Tim Buckley, chairman and CEO, The Vanguard Group

2019 Morningstar Awards for Investing Excellence: Nominees for Exemplary Stewardship

Winners of the 2019 Morningstar Awards for Investing Excellence

Vanguard founder John “Jack” Bogle

Vanguard’s mutual ownership structure, explained

Vanguard funds snapshot page

Analyst-rated Vanguard Funds

Analyst-rated Vanguard ETFs

“Investing Crosses the Rubicon: Free Index Funds”

“Vanguard: Competitors’ Pricing Behavior is Inconsistent”

“2018 Morningstar Fee Study Finds that Prices Continue to Decline”

“Vanguard: Cost of Advice Could Fall Further”

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22 min
May 22, 2019 Morgan Housel: No One Hires a Luck Manager
Our guest for this week's installment of The Long View podcast is Morgan Housel. Morgan is a partner at the Collaborative Fund, a venture capital firm that makes investments in firms that in its words are "at the intersection of for-profit and for-good." A former columnist at The Motley Fool and The Wall Street Journal, Morgan has become one of the most prolific and insightful writers on the investment decision-making process, as evidenced by his impressive body of work on the Collaborative Fund website's blog.

Morgan joined us in this live recording of The Long View from the 31st annual Morningstar Investment Conference in Chicago. Our interview covered a lot of ground, from how Morgan found his way into the finance world, to the role he plays at Collaborative Fund, to a host of other personal and behavioral finance topics that draw on his work.
Show Notes
The accidental writer: Morgan's background and how he came to write about financial topics (0:55-3:04)
"The ability to write a check is no longer a competitive advantage": What Collaborative Fund does, why Morgan was drawn to it, and the role content plays in its strategy (3:05-5:05)

Authorial license: "It's really important to write what … you yourself would find interesting" (5:06-5:58)

Transparency and impact: "We're looking for companies whose ability to do good is their competitive economic advantage" (5:59-8:21)

Public vs. private investing: "If I made a Venn diagram of public and privates, the overlap is much greater than I ever thought it would be" (8:22-9:19)

Theory vs. practice: How private-market "lock-ups" can make sense for individual investors but are still inappropriate for the vast majority (9:20-10:24)

The future of public-private investing: "There's some liquidity in private markets but it’s not very efficient" (10:25-11:16)

Be honest with yourself: Don't try to fight behavioral biases which can't be eliminated anyway; work around them (11:17-13:13)

"That's what works for me": How Morgan reckons with his own behavioral biases (13:14-13:44)

Financial advisors' job one? Don't allow events or emotions to interrupt compounding (13:45-15:52)

History and psychology: "The most important intersection in investing" (15:53-18:24)

Scarred, not complacent: Investors are still licking their wounds from the global financial crisis (18:25-20:12)

You can't shake investors out of their experiences; it takes a new generation to come along (20-13-21:17)

"There’s no other industry in the world where the rewards are as big as in finance": How big paydays can distract focus from everyday work (21:18-23:42)

How fee arrangements can impact portfolio managers' risk and reward calculations (23:43-24:26)

Avoiding confirmation bias and bringing in diverse perspectives: "Find someone who you admire their thought process in one aspect of thinking … but you disagree with them about something else" (24:27-26:10)

A crank whose views Morgan respects--"Jake" on financial Twitter (@econompic) (26:11-26:45)

"No one hires a luck manager": Morgan explains how investors tend to account for risk, but not luck, in their decisions (26:46-29:17)

"Investing isn't the study of finance. Investing is the study of how people behave with money." Morgan explains why he doesn't read investing books (29:18-30:03)

How people deal with uncertainty and opportunity: The importance of content aggregators and of ditching bad books (30:04-31:14)

Perishable: Morgan's favorite non-investing book of the last few years is about how much things can change, on average, in everyday life (31:15-33:03)

"You're not proven until you've survived a calamity": Why it’s so hard to distinguish skill from luck (33:04-35:16)

Good advice (that Morgan doesn't follow himself): Carry a little bit of debt to hone your focus (35:17-36:56)

"You have to pay the fee": How thinking of volatility as an ongoing price for the opportunity to grow capital can help investors put risk in the right context (36:57-38:56)

Are investors giving up on investment skill? Yes, but that’s probably OK (38:57-40:41)

The importance of financial planning: Telling clients the truth (i.e., that they're not on a path to a secure, comfortable retirement, not matter how much they want to believe otherwise) (40:42-43:09)

On Jack Bogle: "The biggest undercover philanthropist of all time." (43:10-44:48)

What matters is how well you behave: The psychology of investing (44:49-45:41)
References
The Collaborative Fund blog
Morgan Housel’s collected works
Morgan Housel, bio
“You Played Yourself” by Morgan Housel (Apr. 24, 2019)
“You Have to Live it to Believe It” by Morgan Housel (Apr. 9, 2019)
“Useful and Overlooked Skills” by Morgan Housel (May 1, 2019)
Jake (@econompic) and Econompic
Patrick O’Shaughnessy, “The Investor’s Field Guide”
Abnormal Returns
“The Big Change: America Transforms Itself 1900-1950” by Frederick Lewis Allen
Books recommended by Charlie Munger
“Origins of Greed and Fear” by Morgan Housel (Jan. 31, 2019)
George Soros
“A Man in the Mirror” by William H. Gross (April 2013)
10-year Treasury Rate
“Counterintuitive Competitive Advantages” by Morgan Housel (Mar. 13, 2019)
“Fees vs. Fines” by Morgan Housel (Apr. 2, 2019)
“Statement of Principles” by Jason Zweig
“When You’ll Believe Anything” by Morgan Housel (Apr. 15, 2019)
Jack Bogle
Morgan Housel’s tweet about Jack Bogle
About the Podcast: The Long View is a podcast from Morningstar. Each week, hosts Christine Benz and Jeff Ptak conduct an in-depth discussion with a thought leader from the world of investing or personal finance. The podcast is produced by George Castady and Scott Halver.
About the Hosts: Christine Benz and Jeff Ptak have been analysts and commentators on investments and the investment industry for many years. Christine is Morningstar's director of personal finance and senior columnist for Morningstar.com. Jeff is head of global manager research in Morningstar Research Services, overseeing Morningstar's team of 120 manager research analysts in the U.S. and overseas.
To Share Feedback or a Guest Idea: Write us at [email protected]

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48 min
May 15, 2019 Don Phillips: We’re All in the Behavior Modification Business
Our guest for this week's installment of The Long View podcast is Morningstar managing director Don Phillips. Don was Morningstar's first mutual fund analyst and eventually became CEO of the firm; he established Morningstar's independent voice and mentored scores of analysts. He also helped develop many of the tools that investors today take for granted, such as the Morningstar Style Box and the Morningstar Rating for stocks (also known as the star rating). Throughout his career Don has worked to enact positive change in the fund industry, speaking out on issues such as misleading advertising and high-fee funds as well as the need for better shareholder disclosures.
In this broad-ranging interview, Don discusses his path from a paper boy investor in Templeton Growth Fund to a job analyzing mutual funds at Chicago startup Morningstar in the mid-1980s. He also opines on the industry's evolution from the opaque, sales-driven culture that he encountered 30-plus years ago to its current emphasis on transparency and very low costs.
Early influences
• The paper-boy years: Don’s early investing influences (1:40)
• The magic of mutual funds: “Sir John Templeton is my personal money manager” (2:45)
• “I had gotten married”: How an aspiring literature professor became Morningstar’s first mutual-fund analyst (4:00)
Building Fund Research
• “Dark days”: What it was like in the fund industry of the 1980s (5:20)
• Democratizing data: When the freshest fund stats were nine months old (7:10)
• Getting them to answer the phone: How Morningstar’s fund database was built (8:30)
• “Putnam wouldn’t talk to us”: How pull demand (i.e., a reporter’s background notes) changed that (9:45)
• “My first job was to read 777 mutual fund prospectuses” (11:20)
• Don’s “el-train” indoctrination to investing (12:10)
• “Not interested (click)”: Opening doors in the early days (13:00)
• “It’s who you surround yourself with”: How to build a team (14:20)
• “Their funds are better than some, not as good as others…”: Morningstar’s approach to serving the financial journalists that called on it (16:10)
• “They found us”: Connecting with our audiences, finding our voice (17:00)
Analyzing Funds, Finding Our Voice
• “Let’s add a gold fund”: Behind the development of the Morningstar Style Box (18:00)
• “You had to be an insider to know that Windsor was a value fund and Janus was a growth fund”: Turning the tables on fund-company marketers (19:05)
• “Lies, Damn Lies, and Fund Advertisements”: Facing down a fund company’s libel suit (21:45)
Achieving Better Outcomes
• Low-cost trend means “better and better deals for the investor” but beware unintended consequences (23:00)
• It’s not the only thing: “You can have a low-cost portfolio that’s wildly inappropriate for an investor that leads to a disastrous outcome” (25:00)
• “We’re all in the behavior-modification business”: Helping people chart a path to their goals (26:40)
• “I would have closed the (Vanguard) Growth Index Fund”: How the experience you create for investors determines your success in the fund industry (36:30)
• Avoiding the “arms-dealer mentality”: How fund companies can ensure investors have better experiences (39:30)
• “The best thing I can do for my clients…is to go on vacation”: On the wisdom of investing without tinkering, and the hazards of information overload (41:00)
Active vs. Passive Investing (and Remembering Jack Bogle)
• “Passive is getting more active every day”: Finding ways to evaluate algorithms and indexes (28:00)
• “Jack is very much with us today”: Remembering Jack Bogle and his impact on investors and Morningstar (29:10)
• “You can’t get away from arithmetic”: If cost is the enemy then investors probably aren’t overdoing it in fleeing active funds for passive (31:30)
• “To me it’s not an either/or battle”: Don on the mix of active and passive funds in his personal portfolio (32:50)
• Personalization as the new active: “The art of investing is matching investment to investor” (35:00)
The Future of Funds, Advice, and Research
• Imagining the fund industry in 10 years (and its similarity to the music business’s radical transformation): “It may be that the mutual fund is like the old LP” (42:20)
• “Investors have a right to know” the ESG consequences of where their money is going (45:00)
• “Digitizing process”: Using big data to assess the investment process (46:10)
• “When you’re reading literature, you’re seeing the world through different eyes”: The importance of diversity to decision-making and life (47:30)
• “Put it on a little piece of paper and put it in a drawer”: How investment committees can avoid knee-jerk reactions and make better decisions (48:30)
• “The art of investing is the match between investment and investor”: New frontiers in fund research (52:00)
• “There is fee pressure, but there’s also a lot of satisfaction”: How the advice industry evolves amid automation and declining prices (56:30)
• “Fiduciary standards in general are hard to enact”: The intentions are good, but beware bureaucracy, red tape, and unintended consequences (58:30)
References
• Don Phillips, recipient of 2016 Matthew R. McArthur Industry Pioneer Award https://investmentsandwealth.org/news-room/2016/imca-awards-recognize-outstanding-achievement
• Sir John Templeton https://www.templeton.org/about/sir-john
• Wall Street Week https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ADn7V_l4Ws
• Joe Mansueto https://www.morningstar.com/company/about-us/joe
• Don’s love of the liberal arts, literature, and business https://grahamschool.uchicago.edu/news/how-liberal-arts-thrive-business-world
• Don Phillips, “Reflections on Fund Management, Five Lessons from 25 Years” http://www.imas.org.sg/uploads/media/2012/10/31/519_100907_Reflections_on_Fund_Management_Five_Lessons_from_25_Years_Sep11.pdf
• The Wiesenberger Books https://www.ifa.com/articles/arthur_wiesenberger_morningstar/
• Morningstar Mutual Fund Sourcebook https://images.app.goo.gl/LgzRCxK9Q3Bu77WC9
• Charles Royce https://www.roycefunds.com/people/chuck-royce
• The Morningstar Style Box http://www.morningstar.com/InvGlossary/morningstar_style_box.aspx
• Vanguard Windsor Fund https://www.morningstar.com/funds/xnas/vwndx/quote.html
• Court of Appeal, Second District, Division 7, California.; Morningstar, Inc., and Don Phillips, Petitioners, v. SUPERIOR COURT of the State of California, for the County of Los Angeles, Respondent. PILGRIM GROUP, INC., Real Party In Interest; No. B075691. https://caselaw.findlaw.com/ca-court-of-appeal/1769980.html
• ESG Investing https://www.morningstar.com/company/esg-investing
• Morningtar Blog: Sustainable Investing https://www.morningstar.com/blog/tag/sustainableinvesting
• Janus Funds, Super Bowl XXXI (1997), “Eyes” ad https://adage.com/videos/janus-funds-eyes/1024
• “The Evolution of Robo-Advisors”, Morningstar blog (July 2018) https://www.morningstar.com/blog/2018/07/11/robo-advisors.html
• “The Importance of Asset Allocation” by Roger G. Ibbotson, Financial Analysts Journal, May/June 2010 https://www.cfapubs.org/doi/abs/10.2469/faj.v66.n2.4
• “Why Diversity and Inclusion Matter to Investors” by Dan Lefkovitz, Morningstar blog, Dec. 18, 2018 https://www.morningstar.com/blog/2018/12/18/diversity-inclusion.html
• Cathy Odelbo https://www.morningstar.com/company/about-us/catherine
• John Rekenthaler https://www.morningstar.com/articles/archive/208/articles-by-john-rekenthaler.html
• Lori Lucas https://www.ebri.org/about/staff/lori-lucas-cfa
• A Global Guide to Strategic-beta Exchange-Traded Products https://www.morningstar.com/lp/global-guide-to-strategic-beta
• “Strategic-Beta Exchange-Traded Products Continue to Grow, but Show Signs of Maturity” by Ben Johnson, Morningstar blog, Mar. 27, 2019 https://www.morningstar.com/blog/2019/03/27/strategic-beta-etp.html
• “Vanguard Founder Jack Bogle Passes Away” by Dan Culloton and Alec Lucas, Morningstar.com https://www.morningstar.com/articles/908054/vanguard-founder-jack-bogle-passes-away.html
• Invesco QQQ Trust (which tracks the Nasdaq 100 Index) https://www.morningstar.com/etfs/xnas/qqq/quote.html
• Jack Brennan, former Vanguard CEO [to find] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_J.Brennan(businessman)
• Sheryl Garrett https://garrettplanningnetwork.com/about/team

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1 hr 2 min
May 01, 2019William Bernstein: If You've Won the Game, Stop Playing
Our guest this week is noted author and advisor, William Bernstein. Bill’s background and entree to finance is unique—a neurologist by training, Bill self-taught himself the principles of investing and asset allocation, eventually parlaying that knowledge into a successful financial advisory practice and a series of influential, critically acclaimed books such as "The Intelligent Asset Allocator." In this conversation, we explore Bill’s background and how it shaped his development and thinking as an investor and how he applies those lessons in working with clients who are trying to meet goals like a comfortable, secure retirement.
“I had to figure out how to save and invest on my own”: Bill’s crash course into investing and constructing a portfolio (1:29)
“I had to figure out how to save and invest on my own”: Bill’s crash course into investing and constructing a portfolio (1:29)
• “I had to figure out how to save and invest on my own”: Bill’s crash course into investing and constructing a portfolio (1:29)
• Separating the wheat from the chaff: How Bill decides what investing research matters and what doesn’t (4:30)
• Top of the list: Books that profoundly influenced Bill’s investment philosophy and approach (5:45)
• “The overwhelming science of investing does not speak well of active management”: Bill on why empirical data ought to settle most questions (and why active-share doesn’t hold up to scrutiny) (7:02)
• “You approach it with extreme caution”: Bill explains why investors should be skeptical of most factors they encounter in the “factor zoo”, save a few (9:27)
• A question that’s giving Bill pause: Is value too crowded a trade? (10:33)
• Is low-volatility the most attractive factor from a behavioral standpoint? Bill worries it’s gotten too expensive. (12:02)
• Fingers (and toes) crossed: Bill thinks value is cheap enough to stick with (12:55)
• “Really, not very much”: Bill on how his approach to asset allocation has evolved over time (13:43)
• “The riskiness of stocks is not an intrinsic characteristic of stocks; it’s more a characteristic of the investor”: Why stocks’ volatility doesn’t fluster younger investors, but freaks out older investors (14:38)
• On how we tend to overrate our risk tolerance: “The difference between being able to see (losses) in a spreadsheet and actually manage (through losses) in real time is the difference between crashing an airplane in a flight simulator and in the real world” (15:38)
• “If you’ve won the game, stop playing”: How to shake older investors out of their complacency with equity risk and recency bias (16:53)
• “The very best physicians are consumed by self-doubt”: How a high ratio of “rumination-to-celebration” can help investors constructively reckon with shortcomings in their approach and improve (19:26)
• Getting it wrong and therefore right: Bill explains how advisors can use their own fallibility and uncertainty to fortify their relationship with clients (versus scaring them to death) (21:12)
• An argument with Jack Bogle: How a debate with the Vanguard founder about foreign-stock investing became an object lesson in how reality intrudes on theory (and how that informs Bill’s approach to managing clients) (22:56)
• “You don’t appreciate it until bad things happen”: On whether the rally in riskier bonds has changed Bill’s tune on limiting fixed-income investments to short-term, high-grade fare (24:25)
• “Investment is a process that transfers wealth to people that have a strategy and can execute it from those who don’t and can’t” (26:22)
• “A reasonable hypothesis, but it got tested” (and failed): Bill on the argument for active bond investing (27:02)
• Earthquakes and execrable returns: Why the best investing and economic gains have been realized in English-speaking countries. (Hint: It’s the law.) (27:48)
• Emerging-markets stocks: Why they’re only a bargain when they’re cheap relative to their own history and developed markets (and still might not be inexpensive even in that case) (30:23)
• Potential hazards: “The US markets are significantly overvalued relative to the rest of the world” (31:36)
• “You’d have your head handed to you”: On the impermanence of investment measures, why it’s dangerous to extrapolate, and the implications for investors (32:54)
• “When I think about my tombstone, ‘investment adviser’ is not one of the things I want to see up there” (34:00)
• “We’re extremely choosy in who we take on. So we have a very enjoyable practice as a result of that” (35:49)
• On retirement preparedness: “A slow-moving and fairly impressive disaster” (37:13)
• “I don’t think the system needs nudges. I think the system needs dynamite”: Steps to radically redefine the retirement system (39:20)
• “It would be nice if we had a system where people didn’t have to save quite so much, because that’s an unattainable goal for probably 80% of the population” (40:41)
• The skunk-in-the-suburb analogy: We’re evolved to avoid the snake or the tiger, not to plan for retirement fifty years into the future (41:24)
• What to do for investors who aren’t interested in finance or good with numbers: Limit investor autonomy, provide a generous match, offer a low-cost menu, default them into a target-date fund (43:03)
• “One of the most important people in my life”: Remembering Jack Bogle (44:32)
• “Something that everyone knows isn’t worth knowing”: Bill on the under-appreciated importance of corporate governance to security returns (46:46)
• How Bill navigates ESG with his clients: He discourages them from pursuing it (49:25)
• Principled but “bending”: How humility should make room for other ideas or priorities within a portfolio or plan (51:05)

• William Bernstein bio (CFA Institute) https://blogs.cfainstitute.org/investor/author/williamjbernstein/
• William Bernstein’s “Efficient Frontier” website http://www.efficientfrontier.com/
• Mean-variance optimization: Explainer https://www.effisols.com/basics/MVO.htm
• William Bernstein’s reading list http://www.efficientfrontier.com/reading.htm
• Fama and French research papers https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=1455
• “A Random Walk Down Wall Street” by Burton G. Malkiel https://www.amazon.com/Random-Walk-Down-Wall-Street/dp/0393081435/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1324493412&sr=1-1
• “Bogle on Mutual Funds” by Jack Bogle https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/111908833X/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i4
• “The Intelligent Investor” by Benjamin Graham https://www.amazon.com/Intelligent-Investor-Definitive-Investing-Practical/dp/0060555661/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1324493602&sr=1-1
• “The Theory of Interest” by Irving Fisher https://www.amazon.com/Theory-Interest-Illustrated-Irving-Fisher-ebook/dp/B00CR32KGK
• “The Arithmetic of Active Management” by William F. Sharpe
• https://web.stanford.edu/~wfsharpe/art/active/active.htm
• Active Share website https://activeshare.nd.edu/
• “Presidential Address: Discount Rates” by John H. Cochrane https://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/research/papers/discount_rates_jf.pdf
• Value (aka “book-to-market”) factor http://mba.tuck.dartmouth.edu/pages/faculty/ken.french/Data_Library/det_form_btm.html
• Momentum factor http://mba.tuck.dartmouth.edu/pages/faculty/ken.french/Data_Library/det_mom_factor.html
• Profitability factor http://mba.tuck.dartmouth.edu/pages/faculty/ken.french/Data_Library/tw_5_ports_beme_op.html
• “Your Complete Guide to Factor-based Investing” by Andrew L. Berkin and Larry E. Swedroe
• https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N7FCW2D/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
• Factor performance http://mba.tuck.dartmouth.edu/pages/faculty/ken.french/data_library.html#Research
• Berkshire Hathaway 2018 shareholder letter http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/2018ltr.pdf
• “Betting Against Beta” by Andrea Frazzini and Lasse Heje Pedersen http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~lpederse/papers/BettingAgainstBeta.pdf
• “Betting Against Beta” factor vs. value factor performance (10 years ended Feb. 2019) https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/factor-statistics?s=y&factorDataSet=-1&marketArea=0&__checkbox_ffmkt=true&__checkbox_ffsmb=true&__checkbox_ffsmb5=true&ffhml=true&__checkbox_ffhml=true&__checkbox_ffmom=true&__checkbox_ffrmw=true&__checkbox_ffcma=true&__checkbox_ffstrev=true&__checkbox_ffltrev=true&__checkbox_aqrmkt=true&__checkbox_aqrsmb=true&__checkbox_aqrhml=true&__checkbox_aqrhmldev=true&__checkbox_aqrmom=true&__checkbox_aqrqmj=true&aqrbab=true&__checkbox_aqrbab=true&__checkbox_trm=true&__checkbox_cdt=true&startDate=03%2F01%2F2009&endDate=03%2F31%2F2019
• “The Intelligent Asset Allocator” by William J. Bernstein https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0071385290/ref=s9_simz_gw_s0_p14_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1NNWXTETT62HJ8QM9ZM6&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846
• “Availability” heuristic https://www.behavioraleconomics.com/resources/mini-encyclopedia-of-be/availability-heuristic/
• Dunning-Kruger effect https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10626367
• “Why Jack Bogle Doesn’t Own Non-U.S. Stocks” with Christine Benz and Jack Bogle (Oct. 22, 2018) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P54trh0Rre8
• “Will Active Stock Funds Save Your Bacon in a Downturn?” by Jeffrey Ptak https://www.morningstar.com/articles/852864/will-active-stock-funds-save-your-bacon-in-a-downt.html
• “Global Stock Markets in the Twentieth Century” by Philippe Jorion and William N. Goetzmann, Journal of Finance https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/0022-1082.00133
• “Legal Determinants of External Finance” by Rafael La Porta, Florencio Lopez-de-Silane, Andrei Shleifer, Robert W. Vishny, NBER Working Paper https://www.nber.org/papers/w5879
• Online Data Robert Shiller http://www.econ.yale.edu/~shiller/data.htm
• S&P 500 Shiller PE Ratio https://www.multpl.com/shiller-pe
• S&P 500 Price/earnings ratio https://www.multpl.com/s-p-500-pe-ratio
• S&P 500 Price/book ratio https://www.multpl.com/s-p-500-price-to-book
• National Retirement Risk Index, Center for Retirement Research at Boston College https://crr.bc.edu/special-projects/national-retirement-risk-index/
• “National Retirement Risk Index Shows Modest Improvements in 2016” by Alicia H. Munnell, Wenliang Hou, Geoffrey T. Sanzenbacher, Center for Retirement Research at Boston College https://crr.bc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/IB_18-1.pdf
• “In Memoriam”, William J. Bernstein, Efficient Frontier http://efficientfrontier.com/ef/0adhoc/RIP-JCB.html
• David Yermack, Albert Fingerhut Professor of Finance and Business Transformation, NYU Sterm, Publications https://its.law.nyu.edu/facultyprofiles/index.cfm?fuseaction=profile.publications&personid=20547

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56 min

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