The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast

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Steve Grasse returns to MAFFEO DRINKS for a conversation about the current state of the spirits industry. Grasse, founder of Quaker City Mercantile and Tamworth Distillery, brings perspective from both the brand building and distillery sides of the business.

His previous work includes Hendrick's Gin and his current portfolio spans luxury craft spirits at Tamworth to the non-alcoholic Pathfinder brand. The previous episode with Grasse (Episode 27, recorded roughly two years ago when Brand Mysticism first came out) was one of the best-performing episodes on the podcast.

The discussion examines what Grasse calls the "Spirits Apocalypse," a structural correction facing the industry through overproduction of bourbon and whiskey, shifting consumer habits, and the fading novelty of craft distilling. The conversation moves from macro industry dynamics to brand fundamentals, exploring how core brand strength determines survival when market conditions turn hostile. The talk emphasizes the importance of strong brand fundamentals, challenges of rapid expansion, and the rise of new-to-world Ready-To-Drink innovations, providing actionable advice for both established and emerging brands navigating this tumultuous market.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction and Welcome Back

00:19 The Spirits Apocalypse: An Overview

01:15 Craft Distilling: Challenges and Changes

03:47 Brand Fundamentals and Market Shifts

05:23 Advice for Craft Distillers

08:54 Innovative Success Stories

11:53 The Importance of Core Brand Values

13:50 Adapting to Market Changes

16:07 Tamworth Distillery Portfolio and Business Model

18:45 The Celebrity Exit Delusion vs Building for Passion

21:30 Experimentation and Pragmatism Over Big Bets

23:15 Brand Ambassadors Must Drive Sales, Not Just Talk

25:40 FMCG Invasion vs Old School Intuition - Industry Polarization

28:20 On-Trade vs Off-Trade Debate is Obsolete

30:10 Board Pressure and Why Solid Brand Core Enables Tactical Freedom

33:25 Physical Fitness Core Analogy - Brand Strength as Insulation

35:54 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Chris Maffeo hosted this episode, brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS.

MAFFEO DRINKS is a leading drinks business podcast, listened to in 120 countries with 130+ episodes. How the industry actually works, from the bar to the boardroom.

Wanna know what the conversation above means for your team? It's in the paid section.

You get access to Maffeo Confidential (Private Podcast), this analysis, and the full catalog of 130+ episodes, each one translating industry conversation into the commercial decisions underneath it. Find out more at maffeodrinks.com or on Substack.

Join The Maffeo Drinks Substack for Episode Analysis!

Eric Franco, a former SABMiller colleague, recently Chief Sales & Marketing Officer at Brewdog USA and entrepreneur who started as a bar owner, joins for a discussion validating core bottom-up principles through battlefield experience.

Working long days running his own bar before selling for global brands, the conversation confirms what becomes clear through market observation: everyone agrees on bottom-up methodology in theory, but execution fails when immediate gratification culture, social media distortion, and funding pressure collide with foundational discipline.

The discussion explores patterns visible across markets: brands hiring VPs before mastering founder-led selling, Target distribution forcing unsustainable multi-state expansion, and burning retail relationships in concentrated markets.

Eric's owner-operator perspective adds depth to the systematic approach to channel selection, geographic expansion, and the three-year foundation period required before authentic scaling becomes possible. ​

Timestamps

• 00:00 Introduction and Catching Up
• 01:11 Defining 'Bottom Up' in Brand Building
• 04:36 Challenges in Brand Growth and Market Expectations
• 09:41 The Importance of Local Market Mastery
• 15:16 Balancing Big Opportunities with Realistic Growth
• 32:02 Final Thoughts and Wrap-Up

Chris Maffeo hosted this episode, brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS.

MAFFEO DRINKS is a leading drinks business podcast, listened to in 120 countries with 130+ episodes. How the industry actually works, from the bar to the boardroom.

Wanna know what the conversation above means for your team? It's in the paid section.

You get access to Maffeo Confidential (Private Podcast), this analysis, and the full catalog of 130+ episodes, each one translating industry conversation into the commercial decisions underneath it. Find out more at maffeodrinks.com or on Substack.

Join The Maffeo Drinks Substack for Episode Analysis!

Robert Simonson, author of seven cocktail books including "A Proper Drink: The Untold Story of How a Band of Bartenders Saved the Civilized Drinking World," joins to discuss how the modern cocktail revival actually happened.

This conversation explores how dead crafts come back to life through individuals rather than institutions, why certain innovations spread while others stay local, and the challenge of documenting history while participants are still alive. Simonson spent 18 months interviewing over 200 people across multiple continents to map how a small group of obsessives rebuilt an entire profession from scratch. The discussion reveals patterns about how quality movements emerge, scale, and risk being forgotten by the next generation.

Timestamps

• 00:00 Introduction and Welcome
• 00:26 Discussing 'A Proper Drink'
• 02:47 The Cocktail Renaissance
• 05:07 Global Influence and Cross-Pollination
• 12:23 Modern Classic Cocktails
• 23:22 Local Influences on Cocktails
• 32:37 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Chris Maffeo hosted this episode, brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS.

MAFFEO DRINKS is a leading drinks business podcast, listened to in 120 countries with 130+ episodes. How the industry actually works, from the bar to the boardroom.

Wanna know what the conversation above means for your team? It's in the paid section.

You get access to Maffeo Confidential (Private Podcast), this analysis, and the full catalog of 130+ episodes, each one translating industry conversation into the commercial decisions underneath it. Find out more at maffeodrinks.com or on Substack.

Join The Maffeo Drinks Substack for Episode Analysis!

Steve Perez reveals how he bootstrapped Global Brands (Owner of VK Vodka Kick and Franklin & Sons) from £200k to £65 million in four years without giving away equity. Starting with zero salary while working nights as a waiter, he funded growth by convincing suppliers to extend £100k monthly credit through radical transparency. 

His philosophy: "Your business is your soul, your heart. Don't give it away too easily."

From his 400-acre farm supplying beef to his hotels, to using venues as R&D labs for drinks innovation, Steve's vertical integration proves you don't need London to build global brands. With 400 employees including three-generation families, he explains what rally driving taught him the about business:

Timestamps:

00:00 Welcome and Introduction

00:47 Steve Perez: From Rally Driver to Businessman

02:26 The Beginnings of a Business Empire

05:40 Overcoming Early Business Challenges

08:29 The Rise of VK Vodka Kick

16:17 Bootstrapping and Supplier Relationships

22:33 The Perks of the Drinks Business

22:59 Building a Lasting Business Legacy

24:27 Family Business Dynamics

28:32 The Importance of Delegation

32:29 Navigating Risks and Trends

37:31 Vertical Integration and Local Impact

41:20 The Benefits of Smaller Cities

43:20 Conclusion and Contact Information

Chris Maffeo hosted this episode, brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS.

MAFFEO DRINKS is a leading drinks business podcast, listened to in 120 countries with 130+ episodes. How the industry actually works, from the bar to the boardroom.

Wanna know what the conversation above means for your team? It's in the paid section.

You get access to Maffeo Confidential (Private Podcast), this analysis, and the full catalog of 130+ episodes, each one translating industry conversation into the commercial decisions underneath it. Find out more at maffeodrinks.com or on Substack.

Join The Maffeo Drinks Substack for Episode Analysis!

The family had been making wine in the Chablis region for 35 years. Looking at that grape pomace every harvest, Alex Watson saw what everyone else missed: repurposing it making Gin.

In this conversation, Alex (who co-founded Renais with his sister Emma Watson) reveals the counterintuitive path from London's most exclusive cocktail bars to Waitrose shelves and why both require completely different strategies for the same gin.

We dig into:

• Why prestigious bars that love you most often move the least volume

• The unexpected channel that actually builds premium brands

• How wine sommeliers became his secret weapon in Michelin restaurants

• The Instagram strategy that works when you're "naturally private"

• Why he leads with flavor, never sustainability (even though the sustainability story is incredible)

• The specific moment he knew the traditional gin playbook was broken

This isn't about choosing between credibility and volume. It's about something more interesting.

Listen to find out what.

Timestamps:

• 00:00 Introduction: The grape distillation opportunity
• 02:30 Renais origin story: From Chablis winemaking to spirits
• 05:45 Leading with flavor over sustainability in brand messaging
• 08:15 Provenance, terroir, and wine culture in spirits storytelling
• 12:20 B Corp certification and circular economy positioning
• 15:45 Building early credibility account by account in London
• 19:30 The role of bartender advocacy in brand building
• 26:15 Social media approach for naturally private founders
• 28:40 Scaling from independent bars to national restaurant chains
• 32:10 Drink strategy differences: Martinis vs spritzes by venue type
• 35:20 Navigating serve complexity across different bartender skill levels
• 38:25 Hybridization of hospitality venues and menu evolution
• 40:15 Premium positioning strategy: Ultra-premium gin challenges
• 42:50 Market agility and testing new initiatives at consumer events

Chris Maffeo hosted this episode, brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS.

MAFFEO DRINKS is a leading drinks business podcast, listened to in 120 countries with 130+ episodes. How the industry actually works, from the bar to the boardroom.

Wanna know what the conversation above means for your team? It's in the paid section.

You get access to Maffeo Confidential (Private Podcast), this analysis, and the full catalog of 130+ episodes, each one translating industry conversation into the commercial decisions underneath it. Find out more at maffeodrinks.com or on Substack.

Welcome to MAFFEO DRINKS. For many years, I've been known as the "built bottom-up" guy. 
But many people misunderstand what bottom-up actually means. 
Bottom-up means building at a pace that doesn't jeopardize your future. 
Doing the right things on the ground while managing expectations from above.

That's it. 

It doesn't matter if your brand is small or big. 
It's a mindset.

I'm Chris Maffeo, Drinks Leadership Advisor. 20 years in drinks across 30+ markets. 
I've been in the boardroom but chose to stay connected to the field. That's where I founded MAFFEO DRINKS.

We help drinks leadership bridge the gap between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations. Stakeholders want numbers. Your team wants direction. You are caught in the middle. And that's where we come in.

This podcast is about honest conversations with drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, CEOs, F&B directors. But this isn't a show about biographies. Every guest is here to show their thinking, not their resume.

We talk commercial strategy, route-to-market, distributor relationships, trade marketing, and all the plumbing of brand building that nobody discusses on stage. How the industry actually works, not the conference version. How to master the unscalable things while building scale.

Beyond the podcast, we offer Bottom-Up Intel & Principles: episode deep dives that you can buy for a monthly subscription (Patterns from drinks builders for the leaders building with them).

And for leadership teams who want a thought partner who has been in their chair and still walks the field, we offer advisory.

Find out more at maffeodrinks.com.

And remember that brands are built bottom-up.

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Maurice Doyle returns to MAFFEO DRINKS to dissect the drinks industry's inflection point, where COVID's artificial peak has given way to a "new reality" of capital constraints and complexity.

Drawing from his veteran experience across major spirits and scale-up companies, Maurice reveals how brands can achieve growth without abundant funding by focusing ruthlessly on strategy, particularly what NOT to do.

The conversation explores the tension between principles and tactics, why "I don't know" might be the most powerful leadership phrase, and how misaligned expectations between bottom-up brand building and top-down objectives create systemic friction.

Maurice's core insight: in a world where 95% of your target market isn't buying at any given moment, success comes from matching physical availability with mental availability while resisting the siren call of premature retail listings.

Timestamps:

• 00:00 Introduction and Industry Veterans Discussion
• 02:30 Current State of Drinks Industry - The Inflection Point
• 08:15 Capital Challenges and New Reality Post-COVID
• 12:45 Strategic Focus: The Power of Saying No
• 18:20 Principles vs Playbooks - Beyond Cookie Cutter Approaches
• 25:10 Getting Out From Behind the Desk Philosophy
• 32:40 Capital-Efficient Growth Strategies
• 38:55 Balancing Long-term Strategy with Short-term Pressures

Chris Maffeo hosted this episode, brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS.

MAFFEO DRINKS is a leading drinks business podcast, listened to in 120 countries with 130+ episodes. How the industry actually works, from the bar to the boardroom.

Wanna know what the conversation above means for your team? It's in the paid section.

You get access to Maffeo Confidential (Private Podcast), this analysis, and the full catalog of 130+ episodes, each one translating industry conversation into the commercial decisions underneath it. Find out more at maffeodrinks.com or on Substack.

Join The Maffeo Drinks Substack for Episode Analysis!

Brodie Meah, co-founder of Top Cuvée, reveals how one neighborhood restaurant in Highbury became the foundation for a "wine for everyone" movement that achieved national distribution.

Starting in 2019 with 40 covers nightly, Top Cuvée's journey from restaurant to retail to wholesale exemplifies bottom-up brand building.

Having witnessed fine dining's intimidation tactics firsthand in Melbourne, Brodie flipped the industry's most exclusive phrase:"top cuvée" (wines deemed too good for regular guests) into a symbol of accessibility.

The COVID pivot unlocked game-changing insights: wine labels matter enormously in retail but not restaurants, £8 glasses translate to £22 retail bottles, and wine's aversion to "openly commercial" marketing creates opportunity.

By building trust glass by glass, turning regulars into brand ambassadors, and proving neighborhood hospitality can scale, Top Cuvée transformed from one Highbury restaurant to shops to national wholesale—keeping "wine for everyone" real.

Timestamps:

• 00:00 From Fine Dining to "Wine for Everyone" Philosophy
• 03:00 One Restaurant to National Distribution Journey
• 06:00 Wine Intimidation and the Leather Entrance Story
• 09:30 Flipping "Top Cuvée" from Exclusive to Inclusive
• 12:00 Why Wine Bars Shouldn't Feel Educational
• 15:00 Building Community - The T-Shirt Customer Story
• 18:00 Labels Matter in Shops, Not Restaurant Lists
• 21:00 The £8 Glass = £22 Bottle Sweet Spot
• 24:00 Wine's "Dirty Word" Marketing Problem
• 27:00 Trust Engines and Part Two Preview

Chris Maffeo hosted this episode, brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS.

MAFFEO DRINKS is a leading drinks business podcast, listened to in 120 countries with 130+ episodes. How the industry actually works, from the bar to the boardroom.

Wanna know what the conversation above means for your team? It's in the paid section.

You get access to Maffeo Confidential (Private Podcast), this analysis, and the full catalog of 130+ episodes, each one translating industry conversation into the commercial decisions underneath it. Find out more at maffeodrinks.com or on Substack.

Join The Maffeo Drinks Substack for Episode Analysis!

In this episode of MAFFEO DRINKS, host Chris Maffeo speaks with Hunter Gregory, Bar Manager at Maybe Sammy in Sydney, Australia, about scaling cocktail culture beyond the usual suspects and making premium cocktails accessible to everyday drinkers.

The conversation explores Sydney's cocktail scene positioned "10 years behind London" despite having quality bars that rival global standards, but revealing how average consumers struggle with understanding enhanced cocktail experiences just like other cities.

Hunter shares the origin story of Maybe Sammy's transformation from a serious hotel-style bar to an energetic showmanship destination when founder Stefano Catino bought a bubble gun from Kmart and decided "f**k it, let's have some fun."

We examine the strategic use of mini martinis during happy hour as a trust-building gateway that gradually brings guests on a cocktail journey from classics to experimental drinks like milk-washed Negroni, Americano with Vegemite macadamia milk.

The discussion covers how Asian cocktail trends increasingly influence Australian bars as European bartenders migrate eastward, the philosophy of "your guests are not always right, but they're always your guests," and why the shift from serving gin and tonics at 10pm to serving complex cocktails throughout the night represents six years of earned trust.

Hunter provides insights on breaking down intimidating cocktail menus, managing consumer expectations around "serious" bar environments, and understanding that people seek experiences that make them feel better rather than just drinks.

Timestamps:

• 00:00 Introduction: Scaling Cocktail Culture to Wider Audiences
• 02:15 Sydney Cocktail Scene: 10 Years Behind London
• 06:30 Australian Drinking Culture: Amazing Bars vs Everyday Pubs
• 09:45 The Demographic Challenge: Experience vs Getting Drunk
• 13:20 Asian Influence on Australian Cocktail Trends
• 17:40 Maybe Sammy Origin Story: From Stuffy to Fun
• 21:25 The Bubble Gun Moment: Breaking Hotel Bar Barriers
• 24:50 Show Business Philosophy: Serious About Craft, Not Ourselves
• 28:10 Mini Martini Strategy: Building Trust Through Happy Hour
• 32:15 Guest Journey: From Classics to Experimental Over Six Years
• 35:40 Wrap up: Making Cocktail Culture Accessible and Fun

Chris Maffeo hosted this episode, brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS.

MAFFEO DRINKS is a leading drinks business podcast, listened to in 120 countries with 130+ episodes. How the industry actually works, from the bar to the boardroom.

Wanna know what the conversation above means for your team? It's in the paid section.

You get access to Maffeo Confidential (Private Podcast), this analysis, and the full catalog of 130+ episodes, each one translating industry conversation into the commercial decisions underneath it. Find out more at maffeodrinks.com or on Substack.

Join The Maffeo Drinks Substack for Episode Analysis!

In this episode of MAFFEO DRINKS, host Chris Maffeo speaks with Matilda Andersson, Managing Director at Truth Consulting, about transforming how drinks brands approach consumer insights and market research.

The conversation explores why traditional focus group research fails to capture authentic consumer behavior, and how ethnographic research (observing people in bars, homes, festivals, and unexpected locations) reveals the cultural truths that drive brand success.

Matilda introduces "the trend of ignoring trends," explaining the critical difference between fast-moving fads (TikTok dances, viral flavors) and slow-changing cultural fundamentals (rituals, occasions, social connections) that brands should actually focus on.

We examine the premium positioning trap where every brand claims to be premium, creating bland homogenization rather than differentiation.

The discussion challenges conventional wisdom about Gen Z drinking habits, revealing they're drinking differently rather than abstaining, and explores why generational commonalities matter more than manufactured differences.

Why occasions and rituals as more valuable strategic frameworks than demographic targeting, showing how brands must earn relevance in existing consumer moments rather than creating artificial ones.

Key topics include participant observation methodology, brand self-awareness, cultural rituals in modern context, qualitative research integration with quantitative analysis, and how brands can actively shape culture rather than passively follow trends.

Timestamps :

00:00 - Introduction: Insights, Rituals & Cultural Role of Drinks

02:15 - Matilda Andersson Background: Career in Consumer Insights & Drinks Industry

05:30 - Cultural Role of Drinks: Historical Context & Modern Rituals

08:45 - The Trend of Ignoring Trends: Fast vs Slow Cultural Change

12:20 - How Brands Can Differentiate What's Worth Pursuing

15:40 - Brand Self-Awareness & The Premium Positioning Trap

19:10 - Understanding Your Brand's Core vs Chasing Competition

22:35 - Probable Futures: Active Cultural Participation vs Passive Reception

25:50 - The Spritz Example: When Trend-Chasing Goes Wrong

28:20 - What is Ethnographic Research? Definition & Methodology

31:15 - Real Insights Happen at the Bar (and McDonald's)

34:25 - The Laziness Problem: Why Brands Don't Observe Enough

36:50 - Gen Z Drinking Myths: They're Drinking Differently, Not Less

39:20 - Generational Commonalities & Occasions Over Demographics

42:10 - Wrap-up: Key Takeaways on Cultural Insights & Ethnographic Research

Chris Maffeo hosted this episode, brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS.

MAFFEO DRINKS is a leading drinks business podcast, listened to in 120 countries with 130+ episodes. How the industry actually works, from the bar to the boardroom.

Wanna know what the conversation above means for your team? It's in the paid section.

You get access to Maffeo Confidential (Private Podcast), this analysis, and the full catalog of 130+ episodes, each one translating industry conversation into the commercial decisions underneath it. Find out more at maffeodrinks.com or on Substack.